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Author Topic: Did the Church sanction gay marriage?  (Read 25324 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 05, 2006, 07:25:39 AM »

Quote
Irish Times, August 11, 1998
Dublin, Ireland

When Marriage Between Gays Was a Rite

As the churches struggle with the issue of homosexuality, a long tradition of gay marriage indicates that the Christian attitude towards same sex unions may not always have been as "straight" as is now suggested, writes Jim Duffy.

Opinion: Rite and Reason
by Jim Duffy

A Kiev art museum contains a curious icon from St. Catherine's monastery on Mt. Sinai. It shows two robed Christian saints. Between them is a traditional Roman pronubus (best man) overseeing what in a standard Roman icon would be the wedding of a husband and wife. In the icon, Christ is the pronubus. Only one thing is unusual. The "husband and wife" are in fact two men.

Is the icon suggesting that a homosexual "marriage" is one sanctified by Christ? The very idea seems initially shocking. The full answer comes from other sources about the two men featured, St. Serge and St. Bacchus, two Roman soldiers who became Christian martyrs.

While the pairing of saints, particularly in the early church, was not unusual, the association of these two men was regarded as particularly close. Severus of Antioch in the sixth century explained that "we should not separate in speech [Serge and Bacchus] who were joined in life". More bluntly, in the definitive 10th century Greek account of their lives, St. Serge is openly described as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus.

In other words, it confirms what the earlier icon implies, that they were a homosexual couple. Their orientation and relationship was openly accepted by early Christian writers. Furthermore, in an image that to some modern Christian eyes might border on blasphemy, the icon has Christ himself as their pronubus, their best man overseeing their "marriage".

The very idea of a Christian homosexual marriage seems incredible. Yet after a twelve year search of Catholic and Orthodox church archives Yale history professor John Boswell has discovered that a type of Christian homosexual "marriage" did exist as late as the 18th century.

Contrary to myth, Christianity's concept of marriage has not been set in stone since the days of Christ, but has evolved as a concept and as a ritual.

Professor Boswell discovered that in addition to heterosexual marriage ceremonies in ancient church liturgical documents (and clearly separate from other types of non-marital blessings of adopted children or land) were ceremonies called, among other titles, the "Office of Same Sex Union" (10th and 11th century Greek) or the "Order for Uniting Two Men" (11th and 12th century).

These ceremonies had all the contemporary symbols of a marriage: a community gathered in a church, a blessing of the couple before the altar, their right hands joined as at heterosexual marriages, the participation of a priest, the taking of the Eucharist, a wedding banquet afterwards. All of which are shown in contemporary drawings of the same sex union of Byzantine Emperor Basil I (867-886) and his companion John. Such homosexual unions also took place in Ireland in the late 12th / early 13th century, as the chronicler Gerald of Wales (Geraldus Cambrensis) has recorded.

Unions in Pre-Modern Europe lists in detail some same sex union ceremonies found in ancient church liturgical documents. One Greek 13th century "Order for Solemnisation of Same Sex Union", having invoked St. Serge and St. Bacchus, called on God to "vouchsafe unto these Thy servants [N and N] grace to love another and to abide unhated and not cause of scandal all the days of their lives, with the help of the Holy Mother of God and all Thy saints". The ceremony concludes: "And they shall kiss the Holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded".

Another 14th century Serbian Slavonic "Office of the Same Sex Union", uniting two men or two women, had the couple having their right hands laid on the Gospel while having a cross placed in their left hands. Having kissed the Gospel, the couple were then required to kiss each other, after which the priest, having raised up the Eucharist, would give them both communion.

Boswell found records of same sex unions in such diverse archives as those in the Vatican, in St. Petersburg, in Paris, Istanbul, and in Sinai, covering a period from the 8th to 18th centuries. Nor is he the first to make such a discovery. The Dominican Jacques Goar (1601-1653) includes such ceremonies in a printed collection of Greek prayer books.

While homosexuality was technically illegal from late Roman times, it was only from about the 14th century that antihomosexual feelings swept western Europe. Yet same sex unions continued to take place.

At St. John Lateran in Rome (traditionally the Pope's parish church) in 1578 a many as 13 couples were "married" at Mass with the apparent cooperation of the local clergy, "taking communion together, using the same nuptial Scripture, after which they slept and ate together", according to a contemporary report.

Another woman to woman union is recorded in Dalmatia in the 18th century. Many questionable historical claims about the church have been made by some recent writers in this newspaper.

Boswell's academic study however is so well researched and sourced as to pose fundamental questions for both modern church leaders and heterosexual Christians about their attitudes towards homosexuality.

For the Church to ignore the evidence in its own archives would be a cowardly cop-out. The evidence shows convincingly that what the modern church claims has been its constant unchanging attitude towards homosexuality is in fact nothing of the sort.

It proves that for much of the last two millennia, in parish churches and cathedrals throughout Christendom from Ireland to Istanbul and in the heart of Rome itself, homosexual relationships were accepted as valid expressions of a God-given ability to love and commit to another person, a love that could be celebrated, honoured and blessed both in the name of, and through the Eucharist in the presence of Jesus Christ.

Jim Duffy is a writer and historian.
http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/gaymarriagerite.html


Are any of these historical claims, such as references to liturgical texts, actually true? I'm not inclined to believe this sort of thing.


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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 07:59:11 AM »

I've read Boswell's work Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, and while the pro-homosexual bias is obvious, it is still impossible to simply dismiss his work out of hand. Regarding the article you posted, I think it distorts things terribly, as it makes Christian history sound like modern day San Francisco during a gay pride march. If there were indeed pockets of acceptance of homosexuality, they were by far the exception to the rule. As to how much of what Boswell says is accurate, I don't know.

What I can tell you is that I found his exegesis of the relevant Scriptural passages to be interesting, though not wholly convincing. I don't really know enough about the medieval history aspects of his work to even venture a guess. For myself, the more important lesson of his book is that tradition isn't always what you assume that it is, and that we need to learn to not think of history as a black and white thing, as though all the subtlety, diversity and profound complexity of human beings and human society exist only in those alive today.
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 09:35:12 AM »

I simply cannot believe, now more than a decade after it was first published, John Boswell's generally discredited Marriage of Likeness: Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe is still taken seriously by some people. Historians with expertise in the relevant fields thoroughly debunked this book's most controversial thesis and its tortured interpretation of evidence, sometimes fanciful conjecture, and slippery methodology (all in the service of a contemporary gay liberation political agenda). To put it simply, Boswell was grasping at some serious straws to interpret Eastern brotherhood ceremonies as having a marriage-like and sexual dimension. He also notoriously spinned his translations to make the relationships in question to seem more intimate than the evidence suggested. Being a philologist, he should have known better.

It's odd, because most of his previous work was usually well-received (though still controversial) by much of the scholarly community. Perhaps he knew his colleagues would punch enormous holes in his radical thesis, but he wrote it anyway so activists could run with it and an unsuspecting public could take it in without question. It was to be his last book---he died of AIDS in 1994, the same year it was published.



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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 09:43:37 AM »

I simply cannot believe, now more than a decade after it was first published, John Boswell's generally discredited Marriage of Likeness: Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe is still taken seriously by some people.
I guess it has a kind of Da Vinci Code appeal to conspiracy theorists.
I remember distinctly closing the book and returning to the library last century after reading where he said that the Trisagion Hymn was "Holy, Holy Holy...." That gave me an insight into the "depth" of his research.
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 09:55:34 AM »

I'd post links to reviews of the work in scholarly journals, but unfortunately the journals are copyrighted. If you have access to a university library's databases, you should be able to read and download them in PDF format via JSTOR.
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2006, 10:11:46 AM »

There is an excellent rebuttal to this homosexual claim by a female professor which shows all of the defects in that author's assertions.  This woman - and her friend - actually took part in the very ceremony this man claims is a homosexual union.   I wish I could find the piece but if you google enough you will find it.

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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2006, 10:47:09 AM »

I just can't believe some people are looking at Boswell's work as authoritative...

wait a minute..I see who started the thread. Now it starts to make sense... Wink
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 10:48:34 AM »

Haven't we talked about Boswell, the Byzantine rite of adelphopoiia, and Sts. Serge and Bacchus at least two or three times in the last two years? This stuff is old, old hat.

A simple Google search turns up the following standard source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/2rites.html
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2006, 11:38:16 AM »

Thanks, Pensate...

I was hoping to do the search but didn't get the time to do so until now regarding the last time we discussed this topic...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9135.0.html
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2006, 11:51:50 AM »

Ah, yes. There it is. Thanks, Father. Not a bad thread.

For those who don't want to spend the time to read the other thread, at least check out this review of Boswell's work from none other than Robert Wilken: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/bosrev-wilken.html

That pretty much says it all.
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2006, 12:11:59 PM »

Ah, yes. There it is. Thanks, Father. Not a bad thread.

For those who don't want to spend the time to read the other thread, at least check out this review of Boswell's work from none other than Robert Wilken: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/bosrev-wilken.html

That pretty much says it all.

Who is Robert Wilken?  (I've never heard of him, but that's just me.)
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2006, 12:47:35 PM »

He's the William R. Kenan, Jr. Professor of Early Christian History at the University of Virginia. He's been one of the foremost scholars of early Christian history for the last several decades (especially on issues of rhetoric, biblical interpretation, the eastern fathers, and relations between Christians and Jews in the ancient and Byzantine world). His faculty Web site lists his interests and areas of research as: Early and medieval Christian history and thought; Byzantine Christianity; history of biblical interpretation; early Christian ethics; Eastern Christianity; Christianity and Islam; Augustine.

He has an excellent command of English prose, by the way, so his books are always easy to read. Here's a list of some of his more famous:

Seek His Face Always: The Pattern of Early Christian Thought (Yale University Press: 2002)
Remembering the Christian Past (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.: 1995)
The Land Called Holy: Palestine in Christian History and Thought (Yale University Press: 1992)
The Christians as the Romans Saw Them (Yale University Press: 1984)
John Chrysostom and the Jews: Rhetoric and Reality in the Late Fourth Century (University of California Press: 1983)

I believe he was raised Lutheran and recently became Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2006, 01:21:06 PM »

I noticed that the article quoted is also from 8 years ago.  So more recent examinations of it's fallacies would not be taken into account.

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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2006, 01:33:03 PM »

There is an excellent rebuttal to this homosexual claim by a female professor which shows all of the defects in that author's assertions.  This woman - and her friend - actually took part in the very ceremony this man claims is a homosexual union.   I wish I could find the piece but if you google enough you will find it.

It was Robin Darling Young, and the article appeared in First Things in 1994. Here is a copy of it.
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2006, 01:46:27 PM »

I simply cannot believe, now more than a decade after it was first published, John Boswell's generally discredited Marriage of Likeness: Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe is still taken seriously by some people. Historians with expertise in the relevant fields thoroughly debunked this book's most controversial thesis and its tortured interpretation of evidence, sometimes fanciful conjecture, and slippery methodology (all in the service of a contemporary gay liberation political agenda). To put it simply, Boswell was grasping at some serious straws to interpret Eastern brotherhood ceremonies as having a marriage-like and sexual dimension. He also notoriously spinned his translations to make the relationships in question to seem more intimate than the evidence suggested. Being a philologist, he should have known better.

It's odd, because most of his previous work was usually well-received (though still controversial) by much of the scholarly community. Perhaps he knew his colleagues would punch enormous holes in his radical thesis, but he wrote it anyway so activists could run with it and an unsuspecting public could take it in without question. It was to be his last book---he died of AIDS in 1994, the same year it was published.






I was in my professor's office the other day, and she has it in her bookcase.  I noticed it because it was slightly prominant and I was drawn to look at it.
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2006, 02:19:57 PM »

 Angry Why does this topic keep showing up on a religious forum and an Orthodox forum when the Church clearly does not and never has condoned or in any way recognized this form of behavior.  What's the point? 
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2006, 06:34:26 PM »

Ah yes. Robert Wilken. He gave a lecture on Augustine at my university and at the Christian Study Center of Gainesville last year. I would take seriously anything he writes.
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2006, 03:02:09 AM »

Angry Why does this topic keep showing up on a religious forum and an Orthodox forum when the Church clearly does not and never has condoned or in any way recognized this form of behavior.  What's the point? 

To better understand history, I would suppose. I think it's a good thing if we are able to refute the claims of revisionist historians.
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2006, 05:24:32 AM »

I am always amazed at those in the 21st century looing backward at history with contemporary eyes instead of seekingto understand the times. Although I may be feeble in my history (correct me if I am wrong) was it not a common practice in middle eastern culture  for two men to cut a covenant between each other. The covenant was to be a bond of friendship and peace wherein a cermony would take place, a banquet and a name change. This cutting of the covenant did not imply that a sexual union was to take place or would take place. The only feeble correlation that we have today is the business contract between two parties.
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2009, 06:52:04 AM »

Irish Times, August 11, 1998
Dublin, Ireland

When Marriage Between Gays Was a Rite
The very idea of a Christian homosexual marriage seems incredible. Yet after a twelve year search of Catholic and Orthodox church archives Yale history professor John Boswell has discovered that a type of Christian homosexual "marriage" did exist as late as the 18th century.


I was browsing the archive -there is truly a wealth of encyclopedic information - and saw that there has really been no forceful answer to Boswell's assertion that the Orthodox used to conduct gay marriages.  So I'd like to put something on record... something I wrote on CAF...

Boswell is very (and probably deliberately) mistaken with his claims that the church rite of "Brothermaking" (Greek -Adelphopoiesis) is some sort of homosexual marriage.

His notions are well addressed in this article

http://web.archive.org/web/20050215134921/http://www.paratheke.net/stephanos/articles/adelphopoiesis.html



Each of these figures— Boswell, Zymaris, SanFilippo and Halsall, has been working to construct a gay-friendly Christianity, complete with a particular interpretation of Scripture, patron saints, and iconography.

First, as a liturgical rite of the Orthodox Church, adelphopoiesis would not have been in conflict with the fundamental moral teachings of the Church.[24] Second, there exists a substantial body of scholarship on adelphopoiesis and similar rites of adoptive kinship which are known throughout the world. These rites are well understood and do not have the sense that Boswell and others would like to ascribe to them.[25]

Finally, it should be said that the scholarship underlying their claim is highly suspect. Even among those who might have been expected to be sympathetic, Boswell’s work was met with skepticism. As Robin Darling Young notes, “The reviews…have been notably skeptical—even from sources one would expect to be favorable.Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe was greeted by reviewers with many colorful comments. Among them, David Wright, Senior Lecturer in Ecclesiastical History at the University of Edinburgh, wrote, “Mr. Boswell’s adventurous forays impress more for their speculative ingenuity than for common sense. One cannot but admire his immense resourcefulness and glittering intuitions, and lament the fallacious sophistry in whose service they are enlisted."[27] Robert L. Wilken, Professor of the History of Christianity at the University of Virginia, opines: Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe creates a world that never existed, misrepresents Christian practice, and distorts the past. This is a book on a mission, scholarship at the service of social reform, historical learning yoked to a cause, a tract in the cultural wars, and it is in that spirit that it should be read.”[28]
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2009, 12:31:37 PM »

Dear Fr. Ambrose,

I have never even heard of this book by Boswell.

Thank you for the information,
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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2009, 03:45:56 PM »

Dear Fr. Ambrose,

I have never even heard of this book by Boswell.

You didn't miss much.  I was at the U of Chicago when it was the pre-publication buzz.  I remember some dopey reinactment of the rite among Polynesians IIRC and asking them what they thought it was.  After publication, not even the militant GALA showed much interest.

No, there is nothing to it.  For one thing, the contentions that the view of homosexuality is a new thing is nonsense.  The canons of St. John the Faster (the first EP) in the Pedalion specifically say that a sodomized boy cannot later be ordained.  (The Pedalion has commentary).

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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2009, 11:30:37 AM »

You didn't miss much.  I was at the U of Chicago when it was the pre-publication buzz.  I remember some dopey reinactment of the rite among Polynesians IIRC and asking them what they thought it was.  After publication, not even the militant GALA showed much interest.

No, there is nothing to it.  For one thing, the contentions that the view of homosexuality is a new thing is nonsense.  The canons of St. John the Faster (the first EP) in the Pedalion specifically say that a sodomized boy cannot later be ordained.  (The Pedalion has commentary).

Isn't there some Orthodox society devoted to lobbying the bishops to moderate the negative view of the gay lifestyle?   In the States?    Does anyone know what standing it has and are Orthodox who advocate this lifestyle seen as within the boundaries of Orthodoxy or are they subject to sanctions from the bishops?

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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2009, 10:22:13 AM »

You didn't miss much.  I was at the U of Chicago when it was the pre-publication buzz.  I remember some dopey reinactment of the rite among Polynesians IIRC and asking them what they thought it was.  After publication, not even the militant GALA showed much interest.

No, there is nothing to it.  For one thing, the contentions that the view of homosexuality is a new thing is nonsense.  The canons of St. John the Faster (the first EP) in the Pedalion specifically say that a sodomized boy cannot later be ordained.  (The Pedalion has commentary).

Isn't there some Orthodox society devoted to lobbying the bishops to moderate the negative view of the gay lifestyle?   In the States?    Does anyone know what standing it has and are Orthodox who advocate this lifestyle seen as within the boundaries of Orthodoxy or are they subject to sanctions from the bishops?


I know of one called Axios.  No, it has no blessing from the Church.

There are a number, how shall we say, from within the Church seeking to moderate negative views of homosexuals, as opposed to the gay lifestyle.  I'd rather not name names.
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2009, 10:50:09 AM »

Pushing the Gay Agenda in the Greek Archdiocese
WRITTEN BY GLEN CHANCY      
MONDAY, 02 MARCH 2009

http://www.orthodoxbiz.com/20090301355/commentary/pushing-the-gay-agenda-in-the-greek-archdiocese.html
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2009, 10:53:28 AM »

Denis Gogolyev and Mikhail Morozov, who live in Nizhny Novgorod, 280 miles east of Moscow, took part in a wedding ceremony.

After a full Orthodox wedding ceremony, Father Vladimir Enert, a local priest of the Moscow Patriarchate, pronounced the pair "man and spouse" and placed gold rings on their fingers.

The couple, beaming with joy, donned gold crowns, an Orthodox wedding tradition, and held hands. "He didn't even frown," Mr. Gogolyev said.

At one point, Father Vladimir paused and asked who would play the role of the man and who that of the woman. "It's the same to us, Father, we're both just spouses," Mr. Gogolyev said he replied.

Source: The Washington Times, September 5, 2003.
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2009, 11:12:59 AM »

Pushing the Gay Agenda in the Greek Archdiocese
WRITTEN BY GLEN CHANCY      
MONDAY, 02 MARCH 2009

http://www.orthodoxbiz.com/20090301355/commentary/pushing-the-gay-agenda-in-the-greek-archdiocese.html


Great link.
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2009, 11:26:01 AM »

Denis Gogolyev and Mikhail Morozov, who live in Nizhny Novgorod, 280 miles east of Moscow, took part in a wedding ceremony.

After a full Orthodox wedding ceremony, Father Vladimir Enert, a local priest of the Moscow Patriarchate, pronounced the pair "man and spouse" and placed gold rings on their fingers.

The couple, beaming with joy, donned gold crowns, an Orthodox wedding tradition, and held hands. "He didn't even frown," Mr. Gogolyev said.

At one point, Father Vladimir paused and asked who would play the role of the man and who that of the woman. "It's the same to us, Father, we're both just spouses," Mr. Gogolyev said he replied.

Source: The Washington Times, September 5, 2003.


And so you continue to peddle your filth.  Thou shalt not bear false witness: you left out the end of the story.

Quote
Denis Gogolev and Mikhail Morozov have staged their own personal revolution, garnering criticism from both queers and homophobes when their marriage last year by a Russian Orthodox Priest was made public....Queer disapproval intensified after the priest was subsequently defrocked...The marriage ceremony for Denis Gogolev and Mikhail Morozov resulted not only in the defrocking of the priest, but the chapel where it was done was reportedly bulldozed and burned by order of the Orthodox Church.
http://www.thegully.com/essays/russia/040513_gay_lesbian_russia.html

from the same site:
Quote
Between 1997 and 1999, the Eastern Orthodox Church [MP] was rocked by gay-related "scandals." As church authorities excommunicated a bishop on grounds of homosexuality, many priests anonymously revealed that they were gay. Nevertheless, the Church continues to define lesbians and gay men as depraved sinners who should not be allowed to teach at schools or hold positions of authority in the army or in the penal system....The Eastern Orthodox [MP] tradition will always be allied with those elements of the state determined to impose a comprehensive social plan on Russia, which includes wiping out "social deviance," like homosexuality, abortion, divorce and broken families

That you selectively edit the story shows that like your teacher Ms. Olga, you are interested only in slander, and not in presenting Truth.
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2009, 01:43:10 PM »

Pushing the Gay Agenda in the Greek Archdiocese
WRITTEN BY GLEN CHANCY      
MONDAY, 02 MARCH 2009

http://www.orthodoxbiz.com/20090301355/commentary/pushing-the-gay-agenda-in-the-greek-archdiocese.html


Great link.

Indeed and quite informative.  Thank you.
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2009, 06:43:10 PM »

if you look at the picture of Michael Huffington with the Roam and Orthodox priests you will see the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of San Francisco...please correct me if I am wrong...what gives?
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2009, 06:43:58 PM »

if you look at the picture of Michael Huffington with the Roman and Orthodox priests you will see the Greek Orthodox Metropolitan of San Francisco...please correct me if I am wrong...what gives?
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2009, 08:50:53 PM »

Gee I don't know SDMPNS (sarcasm) but hey, your question brings to mind some things:

1.- The musical La cage aux folles

2.- The song We are family http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJjD33eKDU

3.- Folsom Street and the Castro.

Spiritual decay, and immorality is what follows those who preach a different Gospel, and false doctrine.

I met a priest during the Glorification of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, and I asked "This city has the incorrupt relics of Saint John, miracle working Icons, and such wonderful pious true orthodox christians. Why then is there so much evil round us?"

The priest looked at me straight in the eyes, and said "Iskariot sat right next to the Lord, impious jews stormed the Lord from all sides, as a swarm of mad wasps, even in the holly of hollies." he said nothing and kept looking at me with those piercing bright eyes, and an expressionless face.

I felt as if fresh air came into my head, awakening my mind, everything was clear, and I seeing my own foolishness felt ashamed for asking such a question, and I told him "Of course! the devil attacks God and everything related to Him, in his mad attempt to become God and the lord of everyone".   

After that, the priest and I became silent, I was happy, enlivened, I felt so light and joyful, with such a deep peace, and quietness, my senses were sharpened, my mind was quick as lighting, and I said a quiet prayer in my mind "Glory to you my God, you help me so much in swift and awesome ways, despite my unworthiness". As soon as I finished, the priest said amin and blessed me. It didn't surprise me, there was an authentic soul to soul communication, and the Lord was in our mist, guiding and inspiring us.

 

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THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.
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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2009, 06:10:00 AM »

Pravoslav...I have no idea why you would want to be so disrespectful. That is the Metropolitan of San Francisco and I am abit surprised that he would be in the picture. It could be from when Mr. Huffington was running for senator.
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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2009, 10:37:48 AM »

That is the Metropolitan of San Francisco and I am abit surprised that he would be in the picture. It could be from when Mr. Huffington was running for senator.


Caption from the article:
Michael Huffington gathered with Orthodox and Roman Catholic priests at the ceremony celebrating his endowment of the institute that bears his name at LMU.

According to the article, this photo was taken in 2007:

When not funding films or blogging, Huffington is also busy using his checkbook to directly further his ideas. In 2007, Huffington gave $5 million to Loyola Marymount University to establish the Huffington Ecumenical Institute to promote Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and understanding.
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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2009, 04:08:14 PM »

Just came across this:
Quote
“Fraternization from a Canonical Perspective”
Athens 1982

Fr. Evangelos K. Mantzouneas
Secretary of the Greek Synod Committee on Legal and Canonical Matters

 English translation by Efthimios Mavrogeorgiadis, May 1994
Minor editing by Nicholas Zymaris

http://syntheosis.org/Synod_Greece_1982.htm

from a very strange blog that combines extreme EP ethnocentrism with seeming support for the gay marriage, etc.: any opinion of his/their posts (they claim to be three as one).  The site is copyrighted, so I can't post quotes, but I am interested in others opinions of the site
http://jn1034.blogspot.com/2009/09/panheresy-is-fathers-of-all-lies.html


It can be graphic: it has a Wedding of Cana in the Background with a wedding cake with two groom in front. Background indeed.  Another is an old type print as one would find in a prayer book, saying "The Neo-Martyrs of the Homosexual Yoke." It runs a misogynist of the week or some such thing: it had a picture of the Pope of Alexandria with what seems to be a journalist on an interview, with a bottle of Viagra superimposed on him.  This is when he repudiated the comments by a bishop in South Africa about women ordination.
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« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2009, 06:55:01 PM »

The troika at JN1034 have defending their site's view on gay marriage this way:

Quote
+++JN1034 said...
>"Which is it worse: a woman’s desire to serve her God or a man’s willingness to lead astray hundreds into schism as the AOI does daily?"

Amen. Amen. Amen.

As for our sibling priest, Fr Gregory ... We appreciate he's made time to visit our blog, and honour us with the appellation "a far greater threat." However, one can't help but be scandalized that amidst the plethora of information we provide and the Tradition we uphold, some people comment only on the minor aspects of sexuality and gender. It comes as no surprise that a recent rating of 200 Orthodox blogs places JN1034 at #14, outdoing the more "popular" Orthodox sites, including Fr. Gregory's Koinonia. Perhaps this is due to either some Orthodox parishes' ineffective, unrealistic, unwelcoming, oft-chastising, theosis-blocking ministry to gays and women, or that some folks' idiopathologies fixate only on the periphery of the vast and eternal Orthodox Tradition.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4988930954657528450&postID=7364030910103952282
(link only for attribution purposes).

It was rated 14 out of 200 Orthodox blogs by these:
http://www.blogged.com/directory/society/religion-and-spirituality/christianity/eastern-orthodox
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 07:07:23 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2009, 07:04:18 AM »

The troika at JN1034 have defending their site's view on gay marriage this way:

Quote
+++JN1034 said...
>"Which is it worse: a woman’s desire to serve her God or a man’s willingness to lead astray hundreds into schism as the AOI does daily?"

Amen. Amen. Amen.

As for our sibling priest, Fr Gregory ... We appreciate he's made time to visit our blog, and honour us with the appellation "a far greater threat." However, one can't help but be scandalized that amidst the plethora of information we provide and the Tradition we uphold, some people comment only on the minor aspects of sexuality and gender. It comes as no surprise that a recent rating of 200 Orthodox blogs places JN1034 at #14, outdoing the more "popular" Orthodox sites, including Fr. Gregory's Koinonia. Perhaps this is due to either some Orthodox parishes' ineffective, unrealistic, unwelcoming, oft-chastising, theosis-blocking ministry to gays and women, or that some folks' idiopathologies fixate only on the periphery of the vast and eternal Orthodox Tradition.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4988930954657528450&postID=7364030910103952282
(link only for attribution purposes).

It was rated 14 out of 200 Orthodox blogs by these:
http://www.blogged.com/directory/society/religion-and-spirituality/christianity/eastern-orthodox
IMO, this blog rag is rated 14 because of its shock value. The one time I sadly stumbled into this garbage dump, the priest editors were spewing hatred, which could incite violence, against “an elderly OCA professor at St. Vlad’s who wrote a book on homosexuals”.  Anaxios! Anaxios! Anaxios!

(If one must put an ethnic flavor to this toxic waste dump, please refer to it as chariot rather than a troika. Wink )
Is no one else angered that this blog rag puts the +EP seal at the bottom of the page?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 07:19:38 AM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2009, 08:09:55 AM »

The troika at JN1034 have defending their site's view on gay marriage this way:

Quote
+++JN1034 said...
>"Which is it worse: a woman’s desire to serve her God or a man’s willingness to lead astray hundreds into schism as the AOI does daily?"

Amen. Amen. Amen.

As for our sibling priest, Fr Gregory ... We appreciate he's made time to visit our blog, and honour us with the appellation "a far greater threat." However, one can't help but be scandalized that amidst the plethora of information we provide and the Tradition we uphold, some people comment only on the minor aspects of sexuality and gender. It comes as no surprise that a recent rating of 200 Orthodox blogs places JN1034 at #14, outdoing the more "popular" Orthodox sites, including Fr. Gregory's Koinonia. Perhaps this is due to either some Orthodox parishes' ineffective, unrealistic, unwelcoming, oft-chastising, theosis-blocking ministry to gays and women, or that some folks' idiopathologies fixate only on the periphery of the vast and eternal Orthodox Tradition.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4988930954657528450&postID=7364030910103952282
(link only for attribution purposes).

It was rated 14 out of 200 Orthodox blogs by these:
http://www.blogged.com/directory/society/religion-and-spirituality/christianity/eastern-orthodox
IMO, this blog rag is rated 14 because of its shock value. The one time I sadly stumbled into this garbage dump, the priest editors were spewing hatred, which could incite violence, against “an elderly OCA professor at St. Vlad’s who wrote a book on homosexuals”.  Anaxios! Anaxios! Anaxios!

(If one must put an ethnic flavor to this toxic waste dump, please refer to it as chariot rather than a troika. Wink )
Is no one else angered that this blog rag puts the +EP seal at the bottom of the page?

Yes.
+Bartholomaios I, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch.

(LOL.  One can only hope).

Under a picture of the primates of the RM/OCA, with hands in the middle raised as to bless, blood all over them:

It then claims that the OCA committed a hate crime against X, a suicide victim at St. Vlad's.

Then there follows a Slavic font heading saying "New Martyrs of the Holy Homosexual Yoke."

Then it claims that the OCA leads in homophobia, with the Antiochians and Copts.

There follows a pink triangle with "Stop Gay Genocide." On the side is their motto, a picture of three elders/bishops WE ARE THREE AS ONE ΕΙΜΑΣΤΕ ΤΡΙΑ ΩΣ ΕΝΑΣ Orthodox.  Homodox. Trinitarian.The first and third are redundant, the second contradicts the first.

It goes on to of course questin the OCA's autocephaly, not accepted they allege by the Orthodox World (a common falsehood), the OCA infiltrated SCOBA with hate-speech and homophobia against its own children. 

It then gets rather threatening, saying that visitors from OCA and St. Vlad's to their site are increasing and that JN1034 sees them, as does God, and says their scandals will come out, and states that the gay communicants of the Orthodox Church have theosis for the taking.

Lord have mercy on X (name withheld by me, as I don't find it appropriate in this context to raise it) and his family.  Whatever there is to mend, may God grant that Met. Jonah (elevated since this post) may mend it.

So these are the people who claim the Church sanctioned gay marriage, which they claim to be the unbroken teaching from Christ through the fathers.?
http://jn1034.blogspot.com/2008/11/vestments-as-sword-ministry-as-shield.html
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2009, 08:26:12 AM »

Quote
There are a number, how shall we say, from within the Church seeking to moderate negative views of homosexuals, as opposed to the gay lifestyle.  I'd rather not name names.
Maybe ME? LOL

As I already stated on the topic on celibate partnerships, I don't feel any hatred for those homosexuals living in the church, but they must work on their sexual behaviour and overcome it.
I studied the question of Boswell's works and his vain attempts to demonstrate not just that homosexual LOVE is acceptable, but that homosexual SEX is. The last thing is an abomination. I don't have anything contrary to two persons loving each other more then just friends, but I think that the Church has established once and for all that homosexual sex is contrary to the Gospel ethics, sanctioning this in the canons. I firmly believe that the Church never condemned homosexuals per se. When the church condemns sodomy, she does this using the koiné word "arsenokoitia" meaning "male bed", and thus reflecting an entirely sexual connotation.
As for Boswell's misinterpretations, it suffices to tell three points I found that disprove his conclusions (may God have mercy on him in the last day!)
1) He stated that one of the sources of the Brothermaking rite is the story of st. Bacchus and st. Serge, martyrs. In fact, the hagiography of these two soldiers states that Serge was Bacchus' "erastes". Boswell says that erastes was a common Greek word for an active male pederast in a homosexual relationship. I think he is completely wrong, since the word "erastes" (lit. lover) and its passive counterpart, "eromenos" (lit. beloved) are both derived from the word "eros", which doesn't mean (as in modern bad culture) "sex", but "love". In fact, how would John dare to say that God is sex? obviously, he's not: God is LOVE! That Serge and Bacchus might have an intimate and exclusive affection for each other (something like a very very close intimacy) seems to me to be verily possible, and this doesn't surprise me at all. In the ancient Greek armies, homosexual affection (but not necessarily sex, of course) was incouraged as this led the fellow soldiers to a greater abdication and cooperation on the battlefield. But saying that "eraster" ALWAYS implies a homosexual carnal relationship is as stupid as to say that ALL fiancés necessarily have sex before marriage. Boswell's conclusion proves nothing but the great love in Christ shared by these two men who shared in their blood shed at martyrdom the same crown of bliss. Definitely, Bacchus and Serge loved each other, but in the same manner as Jesus loves the Church... a pure and chaste expression of unconditioned love.
2) He stated that the use of Bacchus and Serge as a prototype of gay marriage in the rite of Adelphopoiesis "proves" that Brothermaking was an euphemism for Homosexual Union. This is not the case, since the same liturgy summons figures such as Peter and Paul, who had been more in hatred then in love for most of their life, and anyway could have had no homosexual relationship... The rite of Adelphopoiesis seemed to me to be a celibate life experienced by two friends in a sort of joint monasticism. The two founded on Christ's blessing a spiritual brotherhood, and offered to help each other as if they were two blood brothers. Since blood brotherhoods had been condemned as a pagan practice, spiritual brotherhoods blessed by the priest founded a valid reciprocal adoption in the eyes of the church. Now, that this rite might also have become an instrument of the Church to grant homosexual lovers some extra-grace this is entirely possible, but it must have done this in hope that the Holy Spirit might have allowed them to resist temptations and conduct a chaste life. As for this, I'd really like to have the rite restored...
3) Some of Boswell's interpretations on the Sodom and Gomorrah episode is, I think, a hole in the water. That Sodom was a deprived city especially for other sins (especially absence of hospitality and charity) this is of no doubt: yet, God condemns the Sodomites also for their pederasty, which adds up to the list of the sins they committed.

In Christ,   Alex

PS: The entire discussion should push the Church not to accept homosexuality, neither to condemn them, but to welcome sinners and offer them a chance to abandon sin. As a healing Church, we must contribute in the spiritual healing of its members. Homosexuals are often rejected independently of their acting upon sin or not... we should on the contrary offer an hand to them, and show them how they must renounce their homosexual conduct (and not their attraction of feelings: temptations are a part of our nature, and love is always good) in order to enter Christ's kingdom.
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2009, 10:34:20 AM »

^Hate the sin, love the sinner (and by the sin, I mean actions, not the tendency). I agree with all of the above.
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2009, 10:35:09 AM »

Pray for me AlexanderOfBergamo.  I am finding it difficult to embrace priests that stir up hate and potentially deadly crimes against other priests.

BTW, the toxic waste dump site previously mentioned also assures its readers that the His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia is an Atheist Commie and continues to collude with Commies for his personal financial gain.

I won’t put a specific reference on OCnet for this evil comment because it could disperse other noxious gases.
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2009, 11:02:04 AM »

Is Boswell the only source for the false belief that bi/homosexuality was not a sin for many centuries and has only lately become a sin? (besides the clergy on the toxic waste site and their fans)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 11:09:41 AM by ms.hoorah » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2009, 11:16:02 AM »

Trying to read JN1034 gave me a headache.  Jumble-aya. </pun>

I will try to keep this response as safe-for-work as possible, but those who are of a more sensitive disposition might want to bypass this post.

At any rate, aside from the obvious un-Christian rage, there is a real skirting of the problem at hand regarding Theosis and homosexuality: homosexuality is less about one's attraction to the same gender as it is a rejection of one's own gender.  This is why, in general, homosexuals tend to put on airs of the gender they are not, making a male 'effeminate' and a lesbian, well... I'm not so sure of the proper word for false masculinity in polite conversation.

A primary element of Theosis is the acceptance of one's brokenness, which leads one to admit that one is more than his temptations.  All of us have unnatural temptations, which is why the list that includes homosexuality is usually rather long.  The problem for JN1034 is that he has reduced himself to his temptation, rather than accepting that he has an unnatural temptation which is his cross to bear.  He thinks other people have lighter crosses, which entitles him to 'play hard ball' because he is treated 'unfairly' in his own eyes. However, this is not the path to union with God.

We cannot approach God with wrath in our hearts even for our enemies.  However, he has self-justified himself to the point where it is very clear there is no helping him.  Lord, have mercy!  He has designed a reality-game that only he can win.  He sets the rules and defines the discourse so that no one else has any way of making a point that might challenge him.

The truth is that homosexuality is a very, very big cross to bear, far greater than my own. I have known good men who have strugglewitth it, and have turned themselves over to God's care to remain celibate.  Their spirituality is far superior to my own, and these men surely stand far ahead of me in the Kingdom, should I get there at all.  However, their superior spirituality was not the result of demanding that the Church condone their temptations and grant them license, which is what JN1034 is asking and is the tragedy of his circumstance.

We can only approach God with total and complete surrender of the self.  Everything must be put down, even one's sexuality.  Some put down their sexuality and never again take it up, while others are able to take it up because they have been given the gift to use it wisely in this life.  I have surrendered certain things that I will never again take up because I know myself and my ability to abuse those things.  I am free in other ways, but in certain respects I am not.  All of us have these burdens if we are honest enough to examine ourselves.

When one reads the Marriage Service and the entire theology of the Church regarding marriage and sexuality, it is quite evident that homosexuality is not natural to creation.  The same is true of love and sex, which are two entirely different things, though there is some overlap.  However, to say that all love requires sex is preposterous.  We'd never get anything done in the first place, simply because the male sex drive is insatiable.  Men are expected to harness this drive, more so for the homosexual male than the heterosexual male, but both share a common calling not to act on every sexual impulse.  To say that heterosexual males have an advantage because they can get married and have sex with a legitimate partner totally ignores the fact that married men continue to be drawn to sex with others even after blissful marriage to swimsuit models and Playboy bunnies.  Frankly, I have known men who's impulses got worse with marriage and were more tormented after losing their virginity than they were when they were inexperienced.

JN1034 makes a logic jump that leads him to false assumptions: marriage and sex do not necessarily make people more happy.  This is why St. Paul counsels against marriage.  Marriage is not a natural right, but a gift from God.  To some He does not give the gift, but that does not mean He does not love us.  It simply means He has chosen another path for us to struggle along.  To permit homosexual marriage and sex is akin to breaking the cross.  By denying the burden, it no longer becomes a means of salvation (when struggled with), but rather a certain source of condemnation.

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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2009, 11:20:46 AM »


At any rate, aside from the obvious un-Christian rage, there is a real skirting of the problem at hand regarding Theosis and homosexuality: homosexuality is less about one's attraction to the same gender as it is a rejection of one's own gender.  This is why, in general, homosexuals tend to put on airs of the gender they are not, making a male 'effeminate' and a lesbian, well... I'm not so sure of the proper word for false masculinity in polite conversation.


Not necessarily true. While many homosexual men can be seen as being very effeminate, there is in fact a large percentage of homosexual men who are more on the masculine side in their behavior. We don't normally notice these masculine homosexual men because they don't stick out like the others do. What's interesting about this is that these "masculine" homosexual men tend to "date" or partner up with the more effeminate ones.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ms.hoorah
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« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2009, 12:50:29 PM »

Trying to read JN1034 gave me a headache.  Jumble-aya. </pun>

I will try to keep this response as safe-for-work as possible, but those who are of a more sensitive disposition might want to bypass this post.

At any rate, aside from the obvious un-Christian rage, there is a real skirting of the problem at hand regarding Theosis and homosexuality: homosexuality is less about one's attraction to the same gender as it is a rejection of one's own gender.  This is why, in general, homosexuals tend to put on airs of the gender they are not, making a male 'effeminate' and a lesbian, well... I'm not so sure of the proper word for false masculinity in polite conversation.

A primary element of Theosis is the acceptance of one's brokenness, which leads one to admit that one is more than his temptations.  All of us have unnatural temptations, which is why the list that includes homosexuality is usually rather long.  The problem for JN1034 is that he has reduced himself to his temptation, rather than accepting that he has an unnatural temptation which is his cross to bear.  He thinks other people have lighter crosses, which entitles him to 'play hard ball' because he is treated 'unfairly' in his own eyes. However, this is not the path to union with God.

We cannot approach God with wrath in our hearts even for our enemies.  However, he has self-justified himself to the point where it is very clear there is no helping him.  Lord, have mercy!  He has designed a reality-game that only he can win.  He sets the rules and defines the discourse so that no one else has any way of making a point that might challenge him.

The truth is that homosexuality is a very, very big cross to bear, far greater than my own. I have known good men who have strugglewitth it, and have turned themselves over to God's care to remain celibate.  Their spirituality is far superior to my own, and these men surely stand far ahead of me in the Kingdom, should I get there at all.  However, their superior spirituality was not the result of demanding that the Church condone their temptations and grant them license, which is what JN1034 is asking and is the tragedy of his circumstance.

We can only approach God with total and complete surrender of the self.  Everything must be put down, even one's sexuality.  Some put down their sexuality and never again take it up, while others are able to take it up because they have been given the gift to use it wisely in this life.  I have surrendered certain things that I will never again take up because I know myself and my ability to abuse those things.  I am free in other ways, but in certain respects I am not.  All of us have these burdens if we are honest enough to examine ourselves.

When one reads the Marriage Service and the entire theology of the Church regarding marriage and sexuality, it is quite evident that homosexuality is not natural to creation.  The same is true of love and sex, which are two entirely different things, though there is some overlap.  However, to say that all love requires sex is preposterous.  We'd never get anything done in the first place, simply because the male sex drive is insatiable.  Men are expected to harness this drive, more so for the homosexual male than the heterosexual male, but both share a common calling not to act on every sexual impulse.  To say that heterosexual males have an advantage because they can get married and have sex with a legitimate partner totally ignores the fact that married men continue to be drawn to sex with others even after blissful marriage to swimsuit models and Playboy bunnies.  Frankly, I have known men who's impulses got worse with marriage and were more tormented after losing their virginity than they were when they were inexperienced.

JN1034 makes a logic jump that leads him to false assumptions: marriage and sex do not necessarily make people more happy.  This is why St. Paul counsels against marriage.  Marriage is not a natural right, but a gift from God.  To some He does not give the gift, but that does not mean He does not love us.  It simply means He has chosen another path for us to struggle along.  To permit homosexual marriage and sex is akin to breaking the cross.  By denying the burden, it no longer becomes a means of salvation (when struggled with), but rather a certain source of condemnation.


Thank you, Father, for your very knowledgeable assessment. (Very respectfully and sincerely I ask) "Is there a concept of “carrying the cross of racism?"  (The toxic site seemed to focus on specific ethnic jurisdictions.)
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