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Author Topic: OOCA youth conference 2006  (Read 2160 times) Average Rating: 0
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minasoliman
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« on: December 04, 2006, 06:08:30 PM »

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8127393991153819912&q=ooca

I think this is really beautiful.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 01:08:00 AM »

It looks like they make the sign of the cross in the same way that Latin Catholics do.
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minasoliman
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 01:17:16 AM »

It looks like they make the sign of the cross in the same way that Latin Catholics do.

Oh yes, we do.   Smiley  I've always been interested in the history behind the slight differences in the sign of the cross.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 01:17:26 PM »

Oh yes, we do.   Smiley  I've always been interested in the history behind the slight differences in the sign of the cross.

God bless.

Mina
Can you share some of that history?
Many Blessings in Christ
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 11:11:08 PM »

Well, I don't know much.  Perhaps it was a way of trying to be different from the "other" more unliked group.  But that's just a hypothesis, and there is no proof whatsoever.  The reason I came up with the opinion was if you notice the pattern:

Latins and Europeans--left to right
Greeks and Russians--right to left
non-Chalcedonians--left to right
Nestorians--right to left

Get my drift?  Wink

The only thing someone came up with history is that there was a "sign of the cross."  However, the directions were never written down.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 07:20:35 AM »

I'm not sure if I'm correct on this and it might not add much, but I think I read a post earlier here that stated we cross from the left to the right to symbolize going from the "left" (sinful) side of Christ to the "right", in relation to a passage where Christ states He will tell the people on His left to get away from Him.

The EO had a symbolic reason for theirs as well, I don't remember what it was though.
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 11:58:52 AM »

The EO had a symbolic reason for theirs as well, I don't remember what it was though.

Its more or less the same thing. Going from right to left symbolises the sanctification of that which was previously profane (or something along those lines); so taking grace from the right and spreading it over to the left Wink


I read somewhere that the Catholics also did the sign of the Cross from right to left until the 13th century or something, so did they get it from the OO, or is the OO usage a Medieval Catholic invention?
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 09:20:31 PM »

Quote
I read somewhere that the Catholics also did the sign of the Cross from right to left until the 13th century or something, so did they get it from the OO, or is the OO usage a Medieval Catholic invention?

Anba Mikhail of Damietta, a Metropolitan Bishop of the twelfth century, speaks of the Coptic Church's practice of making the sign of the cross with one finger from left to right as being of Apostolic origin.
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2006, 11:52:29 AM »

Anba Mikhail of Damietta, a Metropolitan Bishop of the twelfth century, speaks of the Coptic Church's practice of making the sign of the cross with one finger from left to right as being of Apostolic origin.
So we Latins don't do it wrong after all? LOL. Wink
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2006, 01:22:30 PM »

Anba Mikhail of Damietta, a Metropolitan Bishop of the twelfth century, speaks of the Coptic Church's practice of making the sign of the cross with one finger from left to right as being of Apostolic origin.

So I've heard. Do you know whether he mentions the way in which the sign of the Cross was used - i.e. crossing oneself or making the sign over others? Among EO (not sure about Assyrians), for example, people will always go from right to left when crossing themselves, but from left to right when making the sign over something/someone else.

My questions stems from the fact that both the Chalcedonian Orthodox and the Assyrians make the sign of the Cross the same way, yet I do not believe either church has had much influence on the other. Therefore, if it is the case that also the Latin church made the sign of the Cross in this way until the Middle Ages (I'll have to look into that further), it would seem that this practice has ancient roots.

Not that the OO practice couldn't also be Apostolic; I see no need for homogeneity. Its just interesting to look at the sources of such practices.
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 01:59:23 PM »

Most of the earliest references to making the sign of the cross (Tertullian, St. Hippolytus, St. John Chrysostom, St. Jerome) reveal that Christians used to make a tiny cross on their forehead alone, usually with their thumb. Eventually, Christians began to make little crosses on other parts of their body. For example, I believe Sts. Jerome and Ambrose also say that one can/should bless their mouth with the sign of the cross.

Later on, it became customary to make a larger sign over the whole body (forehead to sternum to shoulders), but -- at least as far as I can tell -- it's hard to say definitively which shoulder came first and what sort of shape one was supposed to make with their fingers (two for Christ's two natures; three for the Holy Trinity; or one for the Oneness of God).

On the hand, it's often reported that Pope Innocent III (very early 1200s) taught that all Roman Catholics should make the sign of the cross exactly as the Eastern Orthodox do today. While he condemns those who cross themselves from left to right (as Catholics now do), his very condemnation reveals that many Westerners were doing otherwise.

On the other hand, even as late as the 17th century (until Patriarch Nikon's reforms), the Russian Orthodox always crossed themselves with two fingers (for the two natures), not three.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 02:10:25 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2006, 02:24:32 PM »

Before Anba Mikhail, St. Severus of Al'Ashmunein also spoke of the custom of making the sign of the Cross with one finger from left to right. One of the many reasons given for the use of one finger is its symbolic reference to the One Nature of God the Logos Incarnate. St. Bar Salibi (tenth century Syrian Orthodox Father) appeals to St. John Chrysostom in his argument in favour of the use of one-finger for making the sign of the cross in his work Against the Melkites. This procedure for signing the Cross is also prescribed in Coptic canon law recorded by the early 13th century group of Coptic scholars known as Al-Awlad Al-Assal, as well as the 13th century Syrian Orthodox canonist St. Gregory Bar Hebraeus.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 02:25:37 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2006, 02:49:49 PM »

St. Bar Salibi quotes St. John Chrysostom as saying: "...you should not make the sign of the cross with the finger in a simple way, but you should first make it with will and with great faith..." and then remarks saying: "See how the Doctor speaks of one finger only and not of two or three".
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2006, 03:21:19 PM »

EA,

Sure. But (a) the earliest signings (one-finger or otherwise) were only on the forehead (cf. Tertullian, Hippolytus, even St. Cyril of Jerusalem); and (b) there are early examples of multiple fingers. I don't think we can make much hay out of the antiquity of this or that current practice, given the ancient diversity and the obvious fact that no one does it only on the forehead any more.

Here are two standard quotes (taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia online):

"In all our travels and movements", says Tertullian (De cor. Mil., iii), "in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross."

St. Cyril of Jerusalem in his "Catecheses" (xiii, 36) remarks: "let us then not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Be the cross our seal, made with boldness by our fingers on our brow and in every thing; over the bread we eat and the cups we drink, in our comings and in goings; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we awake; when we are travelling, and when we are at rest".
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 10:01:05 PM »

Is there an article I can read or a whole big list of quotes from Church Fathers?

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2006, 03:30:14 AM »

Mina ,

I dont think it's that simple, from what I have heard the Assyrians in kerala India, make the sign of the cross as the OO and the Catholics do.

So that means within the Assyrian church itself, there are 2 ways of crossing oneself.

I hope somebody can confirm this.
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