Topic: The Pope's Visit to Constantinople and Turkey

[lubeltri]

The visit is a nice move in the course of dialogue between the two churches but i will disagree with you that there is communion between the two churches.There is no such thing

I never said there was full communion. Full communion does not exist until we can concelebrate the Eucharist together. That is probably a long way off, but reachable with the grace of God.

[nikolaos]

Ok! My friend i  might misunderstand.

[lubeltri]

Ok! My friend i  might misunderstand.

No problem! 

[ozgeorge]

Ok! My friend i  might misunderstand.

No problem! 

If only unity between the Churches could be achieved that easily!

[lubeltri]

No problem! 

If only unity between the Churches could be achieved that easily!

 

If only! I pray it happen.

------

They just read the joint declaration in Greek and then in English before Bartholomew and Benedict signed it.

Benedict looks exhausted! He's got a busy day ahead of him. Perhaps he should take some Turkish coffee while having lunch with Bartholomew.

[Fr. George]

Pope set to visit Turkish mosque

Pope Benedict XVI is due to visit one of Turkey's most famous mosques in what is being seen as an attempt to mend relations with the Muslim community.

His tour of the Blue Mosque in Istanbul will be only the second papal visit in history to a Muslim place of worship.

The Pope's trip has been overshadowed by his recent comments about Islam.

His plans to visit the Hagia Sophia Museum, a site heavy with Christian and Muslim symbolism, brought protesters onto the streets.

Dozens of people linked to an Islamist-nationalist party demonstrated against the Pope's plans to visit the domed complex that was once a Christian centre before becoming a mosque and eventually, a museum.

They claimed the Pope's visit was an affront to the secularism enshrined in Turkey's constitution, as well as an attempt to stake a Catholic claim to the Hagia Sophia site.

They have said any hint of a prayer there would be deeply offensive.

Prayer watch

The third day of the Pope's trip to Turkey began with a mass celebrated by the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I.

A prime reason for Pope Benedict's visit to Turkey has been to heal the centuries-old rift between the two Churches.

"The divisions which exist among Christians are a scandal to the world," the Pope said after the meeting.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says this day's activities are heavy with symbolism.

The tour of the Blue Mosque - across the square from Hagia Sophia - was a last-minute addition to the schedule and is seen as a major gesture of goodwill to Muslims.

It is part of efforts by Pope Benedict to mend the damage his comments on Islam in September caused across the Muslim world.

Speaking to an academic audience in Germany, the Pope quoted a Byzantine emperor who characterised Islam as a violent religion.

While the Pope insisted the remarks did not reflect his own views, the speech was widely reported and caused anger across the Islamic world.

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I don't know how really remarkable this actually is, considering the many hundreds of tourists that the Blue Mosque sees every day.  I personally wasn't that impressed by it - it is a poor copy of Agia Sophia.

[AMM]

Well, good to have ya on OC.net.

I have a question for the canon lawyers and Greek theologians among us...
Why wasn't the OCA mentioned in the remembrances for the autocephalous jurisdictions in the translation offered by Fr. Dr. Chryssavagis (sp?) on EWTN or on the http://www.patriarchate.org/ website?  Does the EP not recognize our autocepahly or are we considered under the MP?

Ugh, please don't make this a complicated affair - I'd like it to be a clean and simple response.  But knowing OC.net, that's probably not going to happen...

I believe the OCA is considered an autonomous subsidiary of Moscow by the majority of churches including of course Constantinople.  Certainly a valid and legitimate church, but not autocephalous.

I believe five churches consider it autocephalous.

[pensateomnia]

I believe the OCA is considered an autonomous subsidiary of Moscow by the majority of churches including of course Constantinople.  Certainly a valid and legitimate church, but not autocephalous.

"Autonomous subsidiary"? I think I know what you are trying to say, but, as you probably know, such a category does not actually exist in the canonical tradition.

More importantly, such is not the official stance of the ancient Sees regarding the autocephaly of the OCA. The Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem (along with their Synods) condemned the unilateral autocephaly of the OCA when Moscow issued it as uncanonical and unacceptable. Since that time, we've enjoyed a sort of unofficial detente, but most Orthodox Churches still do not recognize the OCA's autocephaly in any official way, and, thus, most Patriarchs do not commemorate Metropolitan Herman.

[BoredMeeting]

I don't know how really remarkable this actually is, considering the many hundreds of tourists that the Blue Mosque sees every day.  I personally wasn't that impressed by it - it is a poor copy of Agia Sophia.

I've yet to see the Muslims create anything that can match what they have conquered and stolen from the Christians before them.

[AMM]

"Autonomous subsidiary"? I think I know what you are trying to say, but, as you probably know, such a category does not actually exist in the canonical tradition.

More importantly, such is not the official stance of the ancient Sees regarding the autocephaly of the OCA. The Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem (along with their Synods) condemned the unilateral autocephaly of the OCA when Moscow issued it as uncanonical and unacceptable. Since that time, we've enjoyed a sort of unofficial detente, but most Orthodox Churches still do not recognize the OCA's autocephaly in any official way, and, thus, most Patriarchs do not commemorate Metropolitan Herman.

Thanks for the clarification.

[francis-christopher]

In nomine Iesu I offer you all peace,

Unfortunately I have been unable to see any of this coverage. Could someone please tell me if our Holy Father has been to Hagia Sophia yet and what happened?

What is it that he said that has captured the ire of the Muslims?

Thank you all for the news and updates and God Bless you all!

Pax

[CRCulver]

No, Catholic. But in college I was a member of the Orthodox Christian Fellowship, and my mentor in the history department was Prof. Florin Curta, who is Romanian Orthodox.

Would this by any chance be the same Florin Curta as the philologist and disciple of Rosetti who wrote a rather appalling book  on the history of Romanian where only Dacian Continuity Theory was taught and none of the significant competing models were mentioned at all? If so, I didn't know he lived in the U.S., as while this historical grammar was published by a minor American university press, I thought his work was mainly at the Academia Romana in Bucharest.

[francis-christopher]

"Autonomous subsidiary"? I think I know what you are trying to say, but, as you probably know, such a category does not actually exist in the canonical tradition.

More importantly, such is not the official stance of the ancient Sees regarding the autocephaly of the OCA. The Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem (along with their Synods) condemned the unilateral autocephaly of the OCA when Moscow issued it as uncanonical and unacceptable. Since that time, we've enjoyed a sort of unofficial detente, but most Orthodox Churches still do not recognize the OCA's autocephaly in any official way, and, thus, most Patriarchs do not commemorate Metropolitan Herman.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

Is there any hope in the status of the OCA changing? I personally have great affection for several Fathers in OCA Parishes I attend Vespers at.

Pax

[GiC]

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

Is there any hope in the status of the OCA changing? I personally have great affection for several Fathers in OCA Parishes I attend Vespers at.

Pax

Change as in the OCA getting themselves fully excommunicated, that's feasible, basically their status as 'canonical' is at the mercy of the Moscow Patriarchate. As a metropolis of Moscow in the eyes of they Church, they are subject to the will of said Patriarch.

If you mean change as in becomming recognized by the Ancient Patriarchates, let's just say that the odds of a restoration of communion between Old and New Rome is probably more likely.

[francis-christopher]

Change as in the OCA getting themselves fully excommunicated, that's feasible, basically their status as 'canonical' is at the mercy of the Moscow Patriarchate. As a metropolis of Moscow in the eyes of they Church, they are subject to the will of said Patriarch.

If you mean change as in becomming recognized by the Ancient Patriarchates, let's just say that the odds of a restoration of communion between Old and New Rome is probably more likely.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pax

[lubeltri]

Would this by any chance be the same Florin Curta as the philologist and disciple of Rosetti who wrote a rather appalling book  on the history of Romanian where only Dacian Continuity Theory was taught and none of the significant competing models were mentioned at all? If so, I didn't know he lived in the U.S., as while this historical grammar was published by a minor American university press, I thought his work was mainly at the Academia Romana in Bucharest.

No, it's Florin Curta the historian and archaeologist. He teaches at the University of Florida. He wrote a well-received book called The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500-700 A.D.

[Brian]

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pax

I think his answer is contained in his name.

[CRCulver]

No, it's Florin Curta the historian and archaeologist. He teaches at the University of Florida. He wrote a well-received book called The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500-700 A.D.

Aha, so either way it is a dubious figure, I just got my continuity theories mixed up. I know that book as well, a crackpot work of Paleolithic Continuity Theory that ignores the wide consensus that the Slavonic Urheimat was in northern Ukraine and southern Belarus, slanders historical linguists, and deliberately ignores or misinterprets a lot of ancient evidence. Where, you say, was the book received well? This sort of Alinei- and Renfrew-inspired nonsense is dismissed by pretty much all reputable IEists, and PCT writers rarely subject their work to sufficient peer review.

[BoredMeeting]

Change as in the OCA getting themselves fully excommunicated, that's feasible...

Just what Orthodoxy needs, a good Schism to accomplish what the Communists could not.

[pensateomnia]

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pay no attention to GiC here, francis! He's being his usual inflammatory self!

While the OCA is not officially recognized as autocephalous by most Orthodox Churches, in reality it is still in communion with them as part of SCOBA; and thereby enjoys tacit acceptance in many ways.

"Safety" really doesn't enter into the equation. If the OCA were ever to change its claims (since, for example, its autocephaly has not catalyzed any "meaningful storm," as was hoped), it would only enjoy even more widespread acceptance.

[GiC]

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pax

As much as I would like to use this opportunity to strike a blow against the Metropolia (OCA) in favour of the Greeks, I shall refrain

No, I wouldn't say it is safer to be a member of one church or the other, from a canonical perspective the Metropolia is in a 'less safe' position, but this really ought not be a concern when looking for a Church since through the maintaining of several fictitious relationships as valid the Canonicity of the Metropolia has been preserved. However, if there ever was a break in the relationship between the Metropolia and the Patriarchate of Moscow and communion was broken, the Metropolia would be in Schism and it would be the responsibility of the faithful of said jurisdiction to go elsewhere.

Just what Orthodoxy needs, a good Schism to accomplish what the Communists could not.

I don't really think that the Church in America is significant enough for a localized schism to have any real impact on the Church, we're still too small.

Pay no attention to GiC here, francis! He's being his usual inflammatory self!

Hey, I don't think I've said anything that isn't true. Unless you know something that I don't and the Patriarch has done a 180 on the issue of the Diaspora.

While the OCA is not officially recognized as autocephalous by most Orthodox Churches, in reality it is still in communion with them as part of SCOBA; and thereby enjoys tacit acceptance in many ways.

And what exactly does SCOBA have to do with Canonicity, or any other ecclesiastical decision for that matter, other than the 'C' in the name?

[CRCulver]

I don't really think that the Church in America is significant enough for a localized schism to have any real impact on the Church, we're still too small.

Hundreds of thousands of Romanians come to the U.S. to work for a while and make a killing before heading back. While not all are church-goers, surely those who couldn't find a place to worship in the U.S. (since most Romanian churches are under the OCA) would protest, sending ripples though the Church in the old country?

[GiC]

Hundreds of thousands of Romanians come to the U.S. to work for a while and make a killing before heading back. While not all are church-goers, surely those who couldn't find a place to worship in the U.S. (since most Romanian churches are under the OCA) would protest, sending ripples though the Church in the old country?

I dont think that many people are that religious, even amongst the Romanians, as to make too big of a deal out of it. More likely they'll role their eyes and think it's to be expected with Americans.

[Anastasios]

And what exactly does SCOBA have to do with Canonicity, or any other ecclesiastical decision for that matter, other than the 'C' in the name?

I couldn't agree more!

[GiC]

I couldn't agree more!

This is a day for the record books, Anastasios and I actually agree...even if it for completely different reasons

[BoredMeeting]

I don't really think that the Church in America is significant enough for a localized schism to have any real impact on the Church, we're still too small.

I can't imagine that such a schism between America and Moscow would not affect some of the Patriarchates. It would be quite a temptation for some to pluck the Church in America like so much ripe fruit.

Particularly for those which already have a substantial presence in America.

[scamandrius]

Did anyone notice that a member of the Papal legation to Constantinople was an Eastern Catholic?  His dress gave him away.  I later learned that this particular person (can't remember his name) is prefect of the Congregation of Eastern Congregations. 

I was under the impression that Vartholomaios I was very opposed to the setting up of Eastern Catholic congregations in Orthodox countries.  Would the inclusion of this person in the papal legation signal that Rome has every intention of setting up Eastern Catholic congregations in Orthodox countries to lure the faithful away?

maybe I'm being too conspiratorial.

Scamandrius

[lubeltri]

The Eastern Catholics are an important part of the Church. If you recall, they participated in John Paul II's Requiem Mass (one of the most beautiful parts of that mass, IMO). I don't think a papal legation would be complete without a representative of the Eastern rites. They aren't any less Catholic than Westerners.

So, in sum, I don't think there is any conspiracy there.

[SmoT]

So, this catholic does nothing that could be construed as a religious act while in Agios Sophia, but walks across the street to the Blue Mosque and prays with the Muslim scum.

I know you don't like Catholicism or the Pope; you know you don't like them either.  Leave the colorful condemnations out please. - Cleveland, GM.[/b]

[SmoT]

 

[bripat22]

"the muslim scum"  how is that diffferent from the extremists on the muslim side?? It is the same hate.

[lubeltri]

"the muslim scum"  how is that diffferent from the extremists on the muslim side?? It is the same hate.

Well, he does seem to agree with the Islamist militants that Pope Benedict is the antichrist.

[ozgeorge]

Probably just having a bad day.....
But I guess every day without Christ is a bad day....

[GiC]

"the muslim scum"  how is that diffferent from the extremists on the muslim side?? It is the same hate.

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!'

[ozgeorge]

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!'

Meh....
The "liberty" most people want is the kind that lets them become slaves to their passions.
And I guess we no longer have any need for God since we are going to seek justice ourselves.
Sounds like Christianity with neither the Cross nor Christ.....

[GiC]

Meh....
The "liberty" most people want is the kind that lets them become slaves to their passions.
And I guess we no longer have any need for God since we are going to seek justice ourselves.
Sounds like Christianity with neither the Cross nor Christ.....

Well, it's really American Cold War Propaganda inspired by Enlightenment Ideals. But it's still one of my favourite quotes of the 20th Century.

[SmoT]

I know you don't like Catholicism or the Pope; you know you don't like them either.  Leave the colorful condemnations out please. - Cleveland, GM.[/b]

What? Why do you object to the acronym for "Person of Suspect"? 

[Fr. George]

What? Why do you object to the acronym for "Person of Suspect"? 

Oh, well if that's all it was.... Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. 

[Brian]

Meh....
The "liberty" most people want is the kind that lets them become slaves to their passions.
And I guess we no longer have any need for God since we are going to seek justice ourselves.
Sounds like Christianity with neither the Cross nor Christ.....

That may be true, but doesn't God respect our free will, even to the point of tolerating (but not approving of) our evil deceits and unholy ways?  I mean, though the hospital doors are always open that doesn't mean that the hospital has the right to admit patients without their consent or impose treatment, does it?  Part of God's love is this radical respect He has for us, even as He continually reaches out to welcome His prodigals home.  He is the good shepherd, but it is us who must choose whether to be the sheep or the goats.  Or am I totally off-base here?

[Keble]

So, this catholic does nothing that could be construed as a religious act while in Agios Sophia, but walks across the street to the Blue Mosque and prays with the Muslim(s).

I thought they had some fairly minor prayer service together, but in any case the whole visit ought to keep the "hyperdox" extremely happy.

I am informed that on St. Andrew's Day the Pope delivered an address and blessing in the context of the EP's divine liturgy.

[lubeltri]

Indeed, the EP delivered his homily, followed by the Pope. The papal homily was framed by the brotherhood of Sts. Peter and Andrew. They were posted somewhere on this forum. Benedict also was appointed to say the Our Father in Greek during the liturgy. At the end, both exchanged gifts with each other, made the sign of the cross over those in attendance, and walked in procession out of the church and up on the balcony of the EP's residence. Each pronounced blessings over the cheering crowd (Benedict in Latin, Bartholomew in Greek) before clasping hands and holding them above their heads.

[lubeltri]

The Pope didn't pray with the Muslim cleric. He prayed silently by himself---I doubt the cleric would have appreciated some of what the Pope likely prayed for.

[SouthSerb99]

I read this morning that the Pope (while praying) was moving his lips.

- In a related story -

Turkish lip reader claims that Pope was saying "Jesus, please show them the light and at the same time make them give back the Hagia Sophia to the dude with long beard". 

[bripat22]

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!'

Thank you Barry Goldwater and that quote helped quite a lot in that election! LOL

[lubeltri]

Thank you Barry Goldwater and that quote helped quite a lot in that election! LOL

I think Lyndon Johnson took most advantage of Goldwater's adage about extremism and moderation. Remember the Daisy ad?