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Author Topic: The Pope's Visit to Constantinople and Turkey  (Read 14060 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 29, 2006, 09:03:55 AM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6194224.stm

Pope holds Mass at Turkish shrine

The Pope has been celebrating Mass in the ancient city of Ephesus in western Turkey, on the second day of his landmark visit to the country.

A shrine marks what is said to be the final resting place of the Virgin Mary.

Pope Benedict XVI is then due to meet the Greek Orthodox Patriarch in Istanbul, aiming to heal an old rift between Churches.

The Pope's four-day visit to Turkey has been overshadowed by comments made in September about Islam.

Wednesday's agenda will centre on the meeting with Patriarch Bartholomew I, which was the original reason for Benedict's decision to travel to the country.

Pilgrimage

The Ephesus service was the only open-air Mass Pope Benedict will say in Turkey, for a congregation of some 500 Catholics brought to the shrine by special invitation.

The Pope has visited the small stone house set in the lush green hillside where the Virgin Mary is thought to have spent her last days.

It is visited every year by tens of thousands of pilgrims.

He also honoured the memory of a Roman Catholic priest who was killed amid Muslim anger over the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

"Let us sing joyfully, even when we're tested by difficulties and dangers, as we have learned from the fine witness given by the Roman priest John Andrea Santoro, whom I am pleased to recall in this celebration," he is quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency.

There is only a tiny Catholic community left in Turkey and many in the congregation were foreigners who live in the country and some had travelled from the Mediterranean coast for the occasion, says the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Ephesus.

From there, the Pope will travel to Istanbul, once - as Constantinople - the centre of the Byzantine empire, but now the largest city in a secular but largely Muslim Turkish republic.

In Istanbul he will be the guest of the Orthodox Patriarch, who heads a community of 250 million Christians around the world.

While in Istanbul the Pope will meet faith leaders and visit the city's famous Blue Mosque.

Benedict is scheduled to lead Mass in an Istanbul cathedral before he departs.

Call for dialogue

On his first day in Turkey - and his first in a mainly Muslim country as Pope - Benedict called for an "authentic dialogue" between Christians and Muslims in a speech at Turkey's directorate of religious affairs.

He said the exchange must be "based on truth and inspired by a sincere wish to know one another better".

The visit has been overshadowed by angry protests by Turkish Muslims.

Tens of thousands of people protested on the streets of Istanbul at the weekend, calling on the Pope to stay away or apologise for comments he made about Islam in a speech in September.

Speaking to an academic audience in Germany, the Pope quoted a Byzantine emperor who characterised Islam as a violent religion.

While the Pope insisted the remarks did not reflect his own views, the speech was widely reported and caused anger across the Islamic world.

In Ankara, the Pope began his trip with a visit to the hilltop mausoleum of modern Turkey's founder Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2006, 09:06:04 AM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6192814.stm

Christian divisions cloud Pope's talks
By Jan Repa
BBC Europe analyst

Pope Benedict XVI, spiritual leader of the world's Catholics, is to meet Patriarch Bartholomew - "first among equals" of the leaders of the Orthodox Christian churches - in the Turkish city of Istanbul.

The Pope's visit to overwhelmingly Muslim Turkey has already provoked controversy - with some nationalist and Islamist groups insisting he is not welcome.

However, the Catholic-Orthodox relationship has also been fraught with difficulty, even before the two churches split nearly 1,000 years ago.

On the same day as he meets Patriarch Bartholomew, Benedict XVI will also visit one of the world's architectural marvels.

Built nearly 1,500 years ago by the East Roman (Byzantine) Emperor Justinian, it was known as the Haghia Sofia - or Church of Holy Wisdom.

A lost symbol

Converted into a mosque by the conquering Turks in 1453, it became a museum in the 1920s.

For many Orthodox Christians, it remains the lost symbol of their faith.

Some Muslim groups would like it to be a mosque once more.

If Benedict XVI offers a prayer here, the result could be religious dynamite.

The history of Istanbul - once known as Constantinople - exemplifies the clash of religions, politics and brute power.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy were once twin aspects of the same officially approved version of Christianity, established under the Roman Empire after its conversion in the 4th Century.

Catholicism was dominant in the "Latin" West; Orthodoxy in the Greek-speaking East.

Over the centuries, political, cultural and theological differences widened to the point where the two Churches formally split in 1054.

In 1204, Catholic Crusaders sacked Constantinople.

Reconciliation

Though roundly condemned by the Pope of the day, the sack is still seen by many Orthodox as an act of "Latin treachery" - and continues to mobilise anti-Catholic sentiment in traditionally Orthodox countries like Greece and Russia.

It took until 1964 for a Pope, Paul VI, to meet an Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, Athenagoras, on neutral ground, in Jerusalem.

Recent Popes and Patriarchs have pledged to work for reconciliation and greater unity.

But significant obstacles remain.

One is the status of the Pope - seen by Catholics as the final arbiter of theological and moral truth.

For the Orthodox churches, such authority derives from the first Seven Councils of the Church - the last of which occurred in 787 AD - whose rulings cannot be altered or added to.

Unfair treatment

Other differences concern issues like the nature of Holy Trinity; the relationship between science and Faith; whether God can ever be fully understood; or the existence - or otherwise - of Purgatory.

There are also tensions between the various Orthodox churches - with some, like the Russian Orthodox Church, traditionally vying for the "number one" position; and some suggesting that the Patriarch of Constantinople may be too keen on his links with Rome.

One subject which may well come up during Benedict XVI's trip to Turkey is the allegation that Christians are not treated fairly.

In the 1920s, when the Turkish Republic was established on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire, there were 200,000 Orthodox ethnic Greeks in Istanbul.

Today there are 5000.

Istanbul's Orthodox Christian school of theology was closed by the authorities in 1971 - and remains so, despite appeals from the European Union.
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2006, 09:06:57 AM »

The following image accompanied both articles:

WHERE EAST MEETS WEST



- Kosovo is an overwhelmingly Muslim province of Serbia, pushing for independence
- In Lviv and other western parts of Ukraine, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church predominates - a church that follows Eastern rites but vows allegiance to Rome
- Republika Srpska is the Serb part of Bosnia
- Cyprus is divided between the Greek, Orthodox south and the breakaway Turkish, Muslim north
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2006, 09:59:46 AM »

For the Orthodox churches, such authority derives from the first Seven Councils of the Church - the last of which occurred in 787 AD - whose rulings cannot be altered or added to.

I see at least three major errors in this sentence. Perhaps someone should e-mail this reporter with a brief enough explanation of the actual nature of authority, dogma, Ecumenical Councils and canon law in the Orthodox tradition that she can use it in a graph or two in future articles. Any takers? (Cough...ozgeorge?)
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2006, 10:13:31 AM »

I see at least three major errors in this sentence. Perhaps someone should e-mail this reporter with a brief enough explanation of the actual nature of authority, dogma, Ecumenical Councils and canon law in the Orthodox tradition that she can use it in a graph or two in future articles. Any takers? (Cough...ozgeorge?)

You'd be wasting your breath. The article's from the BBC and after somewhere in the region of 20 complaints to them that they had errors in previous articles about Orthodoxy, I've given up trying. By all means have a go, though, just don't be surprised when they ignore you, fail to correct the errors and don't even acknowledge receipt of your comment.

James
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2006, 12:18:19 PM »

Sad, really, when journalism falls to the level of wanton disregard for the truth.... Oh, wait - that's always been there in the mass media!

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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2006, 12:42:40 PM »

Another article mentioned that Turks had threateded to attack the Pope if he made the sign of the cross while inside Hagia Sophia.

Just another happy day living alongside the Religion of Peace.
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2006, 12:51:32 PM »

With a few hundred elementary school students distracting the personnel, we were able to chant "Save O Lord" in Greek in the Great Church... a completely moving experience.  Of course, if we were heard we would have been kicked out and maybe even arrested, not to mention becoming the target of wrath from the same Turks who seem to love Il Papa so much.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 12:55:06 PM »

Secretly chanting?  That's straight out of some Russian-style underground worship services.  Incredible that such things still go on today.  Religion of peace really living up to their self-proclaimed title!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2006, 01:18:09 PM »

I'm watching the meeting between Benedict and Bartholomew now live on EWTN. Quite a beautiful scene---Pope and Patriarch at the head of two columns of Orthodox and Catholic prelates lined up down the nave, a chorus chanting beautifully nearby.
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2006, 01:27:51 PM »

After prayers interspersed with chants of Kyrie Eleison and a scripture reading, Benedict and Bartholomew mutually recited the Our Father out loud (in Greek, of course).

Now Bartholomew has turned to Benedict and is reading his formal greeting of welcome to Benedict: "Beloved brother, welcome."
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2006, 01:40:02 PM »

I'm sensing more footage for a new video against Ecumenism.

BTW, I'm watching it as well, thanks for the info.
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2006, 01:41:43 PM »

Now Benedict has responded with his own greeting.

And now first Benedict, and then Bartholomew, have given blessings to all those in attendance.

And now a closing prayer chanted by the chorus, as the two walk side by side to venerate the relics so recently returned to Constantinople by John Paul II.
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2006, 01:46:31 PM »

Now they've exited the church side by side as the chorus continues to chant, and in procession both have ventured to the Patriarch's residence for a private meeting.
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2006, 01:48:31 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you all peace,

Please keep up the commentary and comments, I'm at work and unable to watch it myself.

Pax
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2006, 01:49:26 PM »

Now Benedict is warmly greeting a group of broadly smiling Orthodox prelates at the residence. Don't worry boys, they're clasping Benedict's hands and bowing---no ring-kissing as far as I could see!  Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2006, 01:52:10 PM »

Francis Christopher,

I'm glad to be of service. EWTN will inevitably broadcast an encore later this evening, if you've got cable.

-------------

Now Bartholomew is now milling about the room, warmly greeting Catholic prelates.
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2006, 01:57:26 PM »

The big group of Catholic and Orthodox prelates, along with Benedict and Bartholomew, have all now entered a new room, all but arm-in-arm. The mutual affection is palpable.

Now the video feed is only showing the exterior of the residence, so it looks like the private meeting has begun. Raymond Arroyo and a Catholic monsignor are discussing the prospects and challenges of reunion.

-

Well, now the live coverage is concluded. They say tomorrow Benedict is to attend a Divine Liturgy at the Church of St. George, and afterwards Benedict and Bartholomew will sign a joint declaration. It will be interesting to find out what that declaration will say.
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2006, 02:36:18 PM »

Right now I'm at work as well sneaking a peak at Video Broadcast of EWTN. I'm Glad to see no one here is enthusiastic about the Dialogue and the Prayer Services. No one here is who is Orthodox on this board is really jumping with Glee about it. I had my reservations as well but the when the chips fall on the floor, the press will not recoginize the Patriarchs of The Eastern Churches and the political status's they have know. Which is fine because Schisms takes 500-700 years to heal and thats when Iran becomes a superpower is supported by Turkey to reestablish an Islamic Republic. Wink
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2006, 02:49:30 PM »

Here is the press conference held on Monday http://www.patriarchate.org/media/pressconference.php

Archbishop Demitrios speaks for the Orthodox and his opening comments are fantastic. One thing I find ironic is that the intro start off saying who is at the press conference and telling everyone the official language for the press conference is English in a multitude of languages and then Archbishop Demitrios speaking on the power of language without talking about the power of the English language even though that is the choice of the press conference.

Another interesting thing, Orthodox Archbishop Demitrios calls it Istanbul and the Catholic Bishop Brian Farrell calls it Constantinople.
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2006, 02:54:43 PM »

Another interesting thing, Orthodox Archbishop Demitrios calls it Istanbul and the Catholic Bishop Brian Farrell calls it Constantinople.

That is quite odd.
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2006, 02:59:13 PM »

Francis Christopher,

EWTN is replaying it tonight at 11pm. You can see it on TV if you have EWTN on your cable system. If not, you can watch EWTN through their website if you have a high-speed connection.
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2006, 04:19:23 PM »

...Another interesting thing, Orthodox Archbishop Demitrios calls it Istanbul and the Catholic Bishop Brian Farrell calls it Constantinople.
Istanbul is also Greek. It means "in the city." When the Turks invated the City the Greeks were shouting "The Turks are in the City, the Turks are in the City..." (οι Τουρκοι 'ναι στην Πόλη) and the Turks picked it up and called the city Instabul.

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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2006, 04:39:41 PM »

Istanbul is also Greek. It means "in the city." When the Turks invated the City the Greeks were shouting "The Turks are in the City, the Turks are in the City..." (οι Τουρκοι 'ναι στην Πόλη) and the Turks picked it up and called the city Instabul.

While this story has been going around for a while, many consider it folk etymology. For what it's worth, as the Turks had already held already the land surrounding Constantinople for quite some time, they would have had contact with its citizens and already had a name for it in Turkish. The day of invasion was not the first time they ever heard of the place.
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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2006, 07:18:20 PM »

I see at least three major errors in this sentence. Perhaps someone should e-mail this reporter with a brief enough explanation of the actual nature of authority, dogma, Ecumenical Councils and canon law in the Orthodox tradition that she can use it in a graph or two in future articles. Any takers? (Cough...ozgeorge?)
I suppose we should be grateful that we are even getting a mention in the BBC! Cheesy
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2006, 07:32:05 PM »

While this story has been going around for a while, many consider it folk etymology. For what it's worth, as the Turks had already held already the land surrounding Constantinople for quite some time, they would have had contact with its citizens and already had a name for it in Turkish. The day of invasion was not the first time they ever heard of the place.

While all this may be true, the offical name of the city was the Greek "Constantinople" until the 18th century (or 19th, I don't recall), when it was changed to Constantin**** (whatever the Turkish equivelant of "Ople" is), and it was only changed to "Istambul" when Ataturk finished his atrocities, er, reforms.
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2006, 07:41:14 PM »

Another interesting thing, Orthodox Archbishop Demitrios calls it Istanbul and the Catholic Bishop Brian Farrell calls it Constantinople.

Cue They Might Be Giants...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg

 Cheesy

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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2006, 08:01:13 PM »

Cue They Might Be Giants...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg

That's just begging for someone to parody that.  Maybe we could get a bunch of monks and have 'em sing "Not Istanbul, it's Constantinople..."
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2006, 08:18:22 PM »

While this story has been going around for a while, many consider it folk etymology. For what it's worth, as the Turks had already held already the land surrounding Constantinople for quite some time, they would have had contact with its citizens and already had a name for it in Turkish. The day of invasion was not the first time they ever heard of the place.
My intend was to justify the Archbishop by providing a positive lens by which to view his statement and avoid the spirit of criticism.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2006, 08:20:49 PM »

Cue They Might Be Giants...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg

 Cheesy

Ebor

The original video is hilarious, too.  I think it's on youtube (I haven't seen it in years....).  I've also heard a recording of TMBG singing in Greek.
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2006, 08:27:24 PM »

While all this may be true, the offical name of the city was the Greek "Constantinople" until the 18th century (or 19th, I don't recall), when it was changed to Constantin**** (whatever the Turkish equivelant of "Ople" is), and it was only changed to "Istambul" when Ataturk finished his atrocities, er, reforms.
Actually, "Istanbul" dates back to the Ottoman conquest of the City. And in the 19th century, the highest civil magistrate in Constantinople was called the "Istanbul Effendisi". And there is evidence that other Turkish place names have a phonetic origin similar to that claimed for Istanbul, such as the Turkish name "İstanköy" for the Island of Kos ("εἰς τὴν Κό"), and "Izmit" was originally "İznikmit" ("εἰς Νικομήδεια").
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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2006, 10:32:57 PM »

I'm not doubting that the origin of the word was from the conquest...

"While all this may be true,"

What I said was that

"the official name of the city"

used in legal documents and such was still Constantinople.
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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2006, 10:43:04 PM »

Oh, sorry! I thought you were agreeing with CRCuliver that the phonetic origin of "Istanbul" is "probably folk etymology".
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2006, 04:07:39 AM »

I decided to stay up to watch the Divine Liturgy live.

It's beginning now. It brings back such good memories of attending Divine Liturgy at St. Elizabeth the Wonderworker Greek Orthodox Church in Gainesville, Florida, when I was in college.

Pope Benedict looks a lot like I always did, his eyes intermittently peering down at the guide booklet! Though he can read Ancient Greek, unlike me.

Incidentally, at least one Orthodox prelate kissed the ring (or hand) of Benedict on the steps of the church.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 04:14:41 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2006, 04:26:54 AM »

The kissing of the Pope's ring was not the wisest of moves by the Orthodox hierarch.  Perhaps he is a uniate?

Luberltri, are you Orthodox?
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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2006, 04:45:13 AM »

That is a possibility. Hard to say, because all those who greeted him were dressed in black, without any distinguishing marks.
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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2006, 04:49:12 AM »

Luberltri, are you Orthodox?

No, Catholic. But in college I was a member of the Orthodox Christian Fellowship, and my mentor in the history department was Prof. Florin Curta, who is Romanian Orthodox. I often went to Divine Liturgy and Bible study at St. Elizabeth's (the only Orthodox church in the area) on Sundays. I also attended mass at St. Augustine's on Sunday evenings.
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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2006, 05:03:03 AM »

Well, good to have ya on OC.net.

I have a question for the canon lawyers and Greek theologians among us...
Why wasn't the OCA mentioned in the remembrances for the autocephalous jurisdictions in the translation offered by Fr. Dr. Chryssavagis (sp?) on EWTN or on the http://www.patriarchate.org/ website?  Does the EP not recognize our autocepahly or are we considered under the MP?

Ugh, please don't make this a complicated affair - I'd like it to be a clean and simple response.  But knowing OC.net, that's probably not going to happen...
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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2006, 05:05:50 AM »

The Kiss of Peace has just been exchanged. Benedict climbed down from the great chair he was sitting in and met Bartholomew in embrace. We've still got a long way to go!
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2006, 05:08:17 AM »

Well, good to have ya on OC.net.

I have a question for the canon lawyers and Greek theologians among us...
Why wasn't the OCA mentioned in the remembrances for the autocephalous jurisdictions in the translation offered by Fr. Dr. Chryssavagis (sp?) on EWTN or on the http://www.patriarchate.org/ website?  Does the EP not recognize our autocepahly or are we considered under the MP?

Ugh, please don't make this a complicated affair - I'd like it to be a clean and simple response.  But knowing OC.net, that's probably not going to happen...

Thanks.

From what I understand (someone else correct me if I'm wrong), Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, though Moscow does.
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2006, 05:13:55 AM »

Thanks.

From what I understand (someone else correct me if I'm wrong), Constantinople does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, though Moscow does.

You are correct to the best of my knowledge.

James
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« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2006, 05:27:31 AM »

Benedict just said the Our Father in Greek! I didn't know he would be participating in the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2006, 05:58:44 AM »

At last, Communion. I've always been fascinated by the Orthodox way of distributing the Eucharist, passing the spoon holding both species into the mouth of the communicant.

The pope is standing as the Communion line passes by him. As they pass, many people are bowing to Benedict. I saw one woman make the Sign of the Cross to him. One adorable little boy left the Communion line and went up to Benedict to bow and shake his hand! You should have seen the look on Benedict's face.

I love the reverence of the communicants as they put their chins on the cloth and open their mouths like babes to receive their medicine on the spoon.
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« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2006, 06:50:05 AM »

At last, Communion. I've always been fascinated by the Orthodox way of distributing the Eucharist, passing the spoon holding both species into the mouth of the communicant.

The visit is a nice move in the course of dialogue between the two churches but i will disagree with you that there is communion between the two churches.There is no such thing
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« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2006, 06:50:52 AM »

The liturgy was concluded with messages by Bartholomew and then Benedict, both eloquent, learned, and gracious (Benedict, by the way, personally extended the previously offered invitation to discuss with the East a re-envisioning of the Petrine office to reflect the reality of the first millennium). Following that was the exchanging of gifts (Benedict received the Gospels, Bartholomew a chalice).

Then both offered the Sign of the Cross to all around before leaving in procession.

They proceeded up to a balcony, where Benedict blessed the crowd in Latin and Bartholomew in Greek, upon which the crowd erupted into applause. Then there were cheers as Bartholomew and Benedict clasped hands and shook them above their heads before heading inside.

-

I thought it was touching at the times during the Divine Liturgy when Bartholomew gestured or whispered to Benedict to guide him along.

-

I'm sure Turkey is none too happy with this. The government received the Pope with the highest dignity and honor, yet they treat Bartholomew like a petty, pesky local bishop or worse. The Pope, in turn, is publicly treating Bartholomew as the ancient and venerable Patriarch of New Rome.

-

It was a beautiful Divine Liturgy. Yes, we remain separated, but it is a wonderful thing to see the warmth, charity, mutual recognition of good faith, and brotherly affection shared by the leaders of our two Churches. It gives one hope and spurs one to pray ever fervently that God will bring us together in full Communion someday. It will take the grace and mercy of our Lord to do it, but with God all is possible.
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« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2006, 06:52:04 AM »

The visit is a nice move in the course of dialogue between the two churches but i will disagree with you that there is communion between the two churches.There is no such thing

I never said there was full communion. Full communion does not exist until we can concelebrate the Eucharist together. That is probably a long way off, but reachable with the grace of God.
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« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2006, 06:56:16 AM »

Ok! My friend i  might misunderstand. Wink
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« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2006, 06:56:49 AM »

Ok! My friend i  might misunderstand. Wink

No problem!  Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2006, 07:19:05 AM »

Ok! My friend i  might misunderstand. Wink
No problem!  Smiley
If only unity between the Churches could be achieved that easily! Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2006, 07:31:41 AM »

No problem!  Smiley

If only unity between the Churches could be achieved that easily! Cheesy

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If only! I pray it happen.

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They just read the joint declaration in Greek and then in English before Bartholomew and Benedict signed it.

Benedict looks exhausted! He's got a busy day ahead of him. Perhaps he should take some Turkish coffee while having lunch with Bartholomew.
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« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2006, 09:33:03 AM »

Pope set to visit Turkish mosque

Pope Benedict XVI is due to visit one of Turkey's most famous mosques in what is being seen as an attempt to mend relations with the Muslim community.

His tour of the Blue Mosque in Istanbul will be only the second papal visit in history to a Muslim place of worship.

The Pope's trip has been overshadowed by his recent comments about Islam.

His plans to visit the Hagia Sophia Museum, a site heavy with Christian and Muslim symbolism, brought protesters onto the streets.

Dozens of people linked to an Islamist-nationalist party demonstrated against the Pope's plans to visit the domed complex that was once a Christian centre before becoming a mosque and eventually, a museum.

They claimed the Pope's visit was an affront to the secularism enshrined in Turkey's constitution, as well as an attempt to stake a Catholic claim to the Hagia Sophia site.

They have said any hint of a prayer there would be deeply offensive.

Prayer watch

The third day of the Pope's trip to Turkey began with a mass celebrated by the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I.

A prime reason for Pope Benedict's visit to Turkey has been to heal the centuries-old rift between the two Churches.

"The divisions which exist among Christians are a scandal to the world," the Pope said after the meeting.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says this day's activities are heavy with symbolism.

The tour of the Blue Mosque - across the square from Hagia Sophia - was a last-minute addition to the schedule and is seen as a major gesture of goodwill to Muslims.

It is part of efforts by Pope Benedict to mend the damage his comments on Islam in September caused across the Muslim world.

Speaking to an academic audience in Germany, the Pope quoted a Byzantine emperor who characterised Islam as a violent religion.

While the Pope insisted the remarks did not reflect his own views, the speech was widely reported and caused anger across the Islamic world.

===========================================================================================================================

I don't know how really remarkable this actually is, considering the many hundreds of tourists that the Blue Mosque sees every day.  I personally wasn't that impressed by it - it is a poor copy of Agia Sophia.
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« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2006, 09:57:45 AM »

Well, good to have ya on OC.net.

I have a question for the canon lawyers and Greek theologians among us...
Why wasn't the OCA mentioned in the remembrances for the autocephalous jurisdictions in the translation offered by Fr. Dr. Chryssavagis (sp?) on EWTN or on the http://www.patriarchate.org/ website?  Does the EP not recognize our autocepahly or are we considered under the MP?

Ugh, please don't make this a complicated affair - I'd like it to be a clean and simple response.  But knowing OC.net, that's probably not going to happen...

I believe the OCA is considered an autonomous subsidiary of Moscow by the majority of churches including of course Constantinople.  Certainly a valid and legitimate church, but not autocephalous.

I believe five churches consider it autocephalous.
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« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2006, 10:49:59 AM »

I believe the OCA is considered an autonomous subsidiary of Moscow by the majority of churches including of course Constantinople.  Certainly a valid and legitimate church, but not autocephalous.

"Autonomous subsidiary"? I think I know what you are trying to say, but, as you probably know, such a category does not actually exist in the canonical tradition.

More importantly, such is not the official stance of the ancient Sees regarding the autocephaly of the OCA. The Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem (along with their Synods) condemned the unilateral autocephaly of the OCA when Moscow issued it as uncanonical and unacceptable. Since that time, we've enjoyed a sort of unofficial detente, but most Orthodox Churches still do not recognize the OCA's autocephaly in any official way, and, thus, most Patriarchs do not commemorate Metropolitan Herman.
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« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2006, 11:01:07 AM »

I don't know how really remarkable this actually is, considering the many hundreds of tourists that the Blue Mosque sees every day.  I personally wasn't that impressed by it - it is a poor copy of Agia Sophia.
I've yet to see the Muslims create anything that can match what they have conquered and stolen from the Christians before them.
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« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2006, 11:26:12 AM »

"Autonomous subsidiary"? I think I know what you are trying to say, but, as you probably know, such a category does not actually exist in the canonical tradition.

More importantly, such is not the official stance of the ancient Sees regarding the autocephaly of the OCA. The Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem (along with their Synods) condemned the unilateral autocephaly of the OCA when Moscow issued it as uncanonical and unacceptable. Since that time, we've enjoyed a sort of unofficial detente, but most Orthodox Churches still do not recognize the OCA's autocephaly in any official way, and, thus, most Patriarchs do not commemorate Metropolitan Herman.

Thanks for the clarification.
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« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2006, 11:44:56 AM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you all peace,

Unfortunately I have been unable to see any of this coverage. Could someone please tell me if our Holy Father has been to Hagia Sophia yet and what happened?

What is it that he said that has captured the ire of the Muslims?

Thank you all for the news and updates and God Bless you all!

Pax
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« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2006, 12:20:14 PM »

No, Catholic. But in college I was a member of the Orthodox Christian Fellowship, and my mentor in the history department was Prof. Florin Curta, who is Romanian Orthodox.

Would this by any chance be the same Florin Curta as the philologist and disciple of Rosetti who wrote a rather appalling book  on the history of Romanian where only Dacian Continuity Theory was taught and none of the significant competing models were mentioned at all? If so, I didn't know he lived in the U.S., as while this historical grammar was published by a minor American university press, I thought his work was mainly at the Academia Romana in Bucharest.
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« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2006, 12:44:27 PM »

"Autonomous subsidiary"? I think I know what you are trying to say, but, as you probably know, such a category does not actually exist in the canonical tradition.

More importantly, such is not the official stance of the ancient Sees regarding the autocephaly of the OCA. The Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Jerusalem (along with their Synods) condemned the unilateral autocephaly of the OCA when Moscow issued it as uncanonical and unacceptable. Since that time, we've enjoyed a sort of unofficial detente, but most Orthodox Churches still do not recognize the OCA's autocephaly in any official way, and, thus, most Patriarchs do not commemorate Metropolitan Herman.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

Is there any hope in the status of the OCA changing? I personally have great affection for several Fathers in OCA Parishes I attend Vespers at.

Pax
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« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2006, 12:52:45 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

Is there any hope in the status of the OCA changing? I personally have great affection for several Fathers in OCA Parishes I attend Vespers at.

Pax

Change as in the OCA getting themselves fully excommunicated, that's feasible, basically their status as 'canonical' is at the mercy of the Moscow Patriarchate. As a metropolis of Moscow in the eyes of they Church, they are subject to the will of said Patriarch.

If you mean change as in becomming recognized by the Ancient Patriarchates, let's just say that the odds of a restoration of communion between Old and New Rome is probably more likely.
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2006, 12:56:04 PM »

Change as in the OCA getting themselves fully excommunicated, that's feasible, basically their status as 'canonical' is at the mercy of the Moscow Patriarchate. As a metropolis of Moscow in the eyes of they Church, they are subject to the will of said Patriarch.

If you mean change as in becomming recognized by the Ancient Patriarchates, let's just say that the odds of a restoration of communion between Old and New Rome is probably more likely.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pax
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« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2006, 12:58:40 PM »

Would this by any chance be the same Florin Curta as the philologist and disciple of Rosetti who wrote a rather appalling book  on the history of Romanian where only Dacian Continuity Theory was taught and none of the significant competing models were mentioned at all? If so, I didn't know he lived in the U.S., as while this historical grammar was published by a minor American university press, I thought his work was mainly at the Academia Romana in Bucharest.

No, it's Florin Curta the historian and archaeologist. He teaches at the University of Florida. He wrote a well-received book called The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500-700 A.D.
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« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2006, 01:16:52 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pax

I think his answer is contained in his name. Wink
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« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2006, 01:21:04 PM »

No, it's Florin Curta the historian and archaeologist. He teaches at the University of Florida. He wrote a well-received book called The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500-700 A.D.

Aha, so either way it is a dubious figure, I just got my continuity theories mixed up. I know that book as well, a crackpot work of Paleolithic Continuity Theory that ignores the wide consensus that the Slavonic Urheimat was in northern Ukraine and southern Belarus, slanders historical linguists, and deliberately ignores or misinterprets a lot of ancient evidence. Where, you say, was the book received well? This sort of Alinei- and Renfrew-inspired nonsense is dismissed by pretty much all reputable IEists, and PCT writers rarely subject their work to sufficient peer review.
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« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2006, 01:22:16 PM »

Change as in the OCA getting themselves fully excommunicated, that's feasible...
Just what Orthodoxy needs, a good Schism to accomplish what the Communists could not.
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« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2006, 01:22:59 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pay no attention to GiC here, francis! He's being his usual inflammatory self!

While the OCA is not officially recognized as autocephalous by most Orthodox Churches, in reality it is still in communion with them as part of SCOBA; and thereby enjoys tacit acceptance in many ways.

"Safety" really doesn't enter into the equation. If the OCA were ever to change its claims (since, for example, its autocephaly has not catalyzed any "meaningful storm," as was hoped), it would only enjoy even more widespread acceptance.
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« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2006, 01:45:43 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace GreekisChristian,

So would you say it would be 'much safer' to be Greek Orthodox than say OCA in America?

Pax

As much as I would like to use this opportunity to strike a blow against the Metropolia (OCA) in favour of the Greeks, I shall refrain Grin

No, I wouldn't say it is safer to be a member of one church or the other, from a canonical perspective the Metropolia is in a 'less safe' position, but this really ought not be a concern when looking for a Church since through the maintaining of several fictitious relationships as valid the Canonicity of the Metropolia has been preserved. However, if there ever was a break in the relationship between the Metropolia and the Patriarchate of Moscow and communion was broken, the Metropolia would be in Schism and it would be the responsibility of the faithful of said jurisdiction to go elsewhere.

Just what Orthodoxy needs, a good Schism to accomplish what the Communists could not.

I don't really think that the Church in America is significant enough for a localized schism to have any real impact on the Church, we're still too small.

Pay no attention to GiC here, francis! He's being his usual inflammatory self!

Hey, I don't think I've said anything that isn't true. Unless you know something that I don't and the Patriarch has done a 180 on the issue of the Diaspora. Wink

While the OCA is not officially recognized as autocephalous by most Orthodox Churches, in reality it is still in communion with them as part of SCOBA; and thereby enjoys tacit acceptance in many ways.

And what exactly does SCOBA have to do with Canonicity, or any other ecclesiastical decision for that matter, other than the 'C' in the name?
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« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2006, 02:12:11 PM »

I don't really think that the Church in America is significant enough for a localized schism to have any real impact on the Church, we're still too small.

Hundreds of thousands of Romanians come to the U.S. to work for a while and make a killing before heading back. While not all are church-goers, surely those who couldn't find a place to worship in the U.S. (since most Romanian churches are under the OCA) would protest, sending ripples though the Church in the old country?
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« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2006, 02:14:14 PM »

Hundreds of thousands of Romanians come to the U.S. to work for a while and make a killing before heading back. While not all are church-goers, surely those who couldn't find a place to worship in the U.S. (since most Romanian churches are under the OCA) would protest, sending ripples though the Church in the old country?

I dont think that many people are that religious, even amongst the Romanians, as to make too big of a deal out of it. More likely they'll role their eyes and think it's to be expected with Americans.
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« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2006, 02:38:10 PM »

Quote from: greekischristian
And what exactly does SCOBA have to do with Canonicity, or any other ecclesiastical decision for that matter, other than the 'C' in the name?

I couldn't agree more! Wink
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« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2006, 02:41:39 PM »

I couldn't agree more! Wink

This is a day for the record books, Anastasios and I actually agree...even if it for completely different reasons Wink
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« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2006, 03:38:51 PM »

I don't really think that the Church in America is significant enough for a localized schism to have any real impact on the Church, we're still too small.
I can't imagine that such a schism between America and Moscow would not affect some of the Patriarchates. It would be quite a temptation for some to pluck the Church in America like so much ripe fruit.

Particularly for those which already have a substantial presence in America.
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« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2006, 06:36:23 PM »

Did anyone notice that a member of the Papal legation to Constantinople was an Eastern Catholic?  His dress gave him away.  I later learned that this particular person (can't remember his name) is prefect of the Congregation of Eastern Congregations. 

I was under the impression that Vartholomaios I was very opposed to the setting up of Eastern Catholic congregations in Orthodox countries.  Would the inclusion of this person in the papal legation signal that Rome has every intention of setting up Eastern Catholic congregations in Orthodox countries to lure the faithful away?

maybe I'm being too conspiratorial.

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« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2006, 07:18:49 PM »

The Eastern Catholics are an important part of the Church. If you recall, they participated in John Paul II's Requiem Mass (one of the most beautiful parts of that mass, IMO). I don't think a papal legation would be complete without a representative of the Eastern rites. They aren't any less Catholic than Westerners.

So, in sum, I don't think there is any conspiracy there.
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« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2006, 09:38:34 PM »

So, this catholic does nothing that could be construed as a religious act while in Agios Sophia, but walks across the street to the Blue Mosque and prays with the Muslim scum.

I know you don't like Catholicism or the Pope; you know you don't like them either.  Leave the colorful condemnations out please. - Cleveland, GM.[/b]
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« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2006, 09:39:11 PM »

 Angry
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« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2006, 01:49:15 AM »

"the muslim scum"  how is that diffferent from the extremists on the muslim side?? It is the same hate.
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« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2006, 02:00:54 AM »

"the muslim scum"  how is that diffferent from the extremists on the muslim side?? It is the same hate.

Well, he does seem to agree with the Islamist militants that Pope Benedict is the antichrist.
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« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2006, 02:29:16 AM »

Probably just having a bad day.....
But I guess every day without Christ is a bad day.... Wink
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« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2006, 09:02:42 AM »

"the muslim scum"  how is that diffferent from the extremists on the muslim side?? It is the same hate.

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!'
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« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2006, 09:16:26 AM »

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!'
Meh....
The "liberty" most people want is the kind that lets them become slaves to their passions.
And I guess we no longer have any need for God since we are going to seek justice ourselves.
Sounds like Christianity with neither the Cross nor Christ..... Wink
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« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2006, 09:29:21 AM »

Meh....
The "liberty" most people want is the kind that lets them become slaves to their passions.
And I guess we no longer have any need for God since we are going to seek justice ourselves.
Sounds like Christianity with neither the Cross nor Christ..... Wink

Well, it's really American Cold War Propaganda inspired by Enlightenment Ideals. But it's still one of my favourite quotes of the 20th Century.
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« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2006, 09:53:24 AM »


I know you don't like Catholicism or the Pope; you know you don't like them either.  Leave the colorful condemnations out please. - Cleveland, GM.[/b]

What? Why do you object to the acronym for "Person of Suspect"?  Cheesy
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« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2006, 10:14:16 AM »

What? Why do you object to the acronym for "Person of Suspect"?  Cheesy

Oh, well if that's all it was.... Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.  Wink
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« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2006, 10:22:56 AM »

Meh....
The "liberty" most people want is the kind that lets them become slaves to their passions.
And I guess we no longer have any need for God since we are going to seek justice ourselves.
Sounds like Christianity with neither the Cross nor Christ..... Wink

That may be true, but doesn't God respect our free will, even to the point of tolerating (but not approving of) our evil deceits and unholy ways?  I mean, though the hospital doors are always open that doesn't mean that the hospital has the right to admit patients without their consent or impose treatment, does it?  Part of God's love is this radical respect He has for us, even as He continually reaches out to welcome His prodigals home.  He is the good shepherd, but it is us who must choose whether to be the sheep or the goats.  Or am I totally off-base here?
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« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2006, 10:37:09 AM »

So, this catholic does nothing that could be construed as a religious act while in Agios Sophia, but walks across the street to the Blue Mosque and prays with the Muslim(s).

I thought they had some fairly minor prayer service together, but in any case the whole visit ought to keep the "hyperdox" extremely happy.

I am informed that on St. Andrew's Day the Pope delivered an address and blessing in the context of the EP's divine liturgy.
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« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2006, 10:58:30 AM »

Indeed, the EP delivered his homily, followed by the Pope. The papal homily was framed by the brotherhood of Sts. Peter and Andrew. They were posted somewhere on this forum. Benedict also was appointed to say the Our Father in Greek during the liturgy. At the end, both exchanged gifts with each other, made the sign of the cross over those in attendance, and walked in procession out of the church and up on the balcony of the EP's residence. Each pronounced blessings over the cheering crowd (Benedict in Latin, Bartholomew in Greek) before clasping hands and holding them above their heads.
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« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2006, 11:05:34 AM »

The Pope didn't pray with the Muslim cleric. He prayed silently by himself---I doubt the cleric would have appreciated some of what the Pope likely prayed for.
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« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2006, 11:53:33 AM »

I read this morning that the Pope (while praying) was moving his lips.

- In a related story -

Turkish lip reader claims that Pope was saying "Jesus, please show them the light and at the same time make them give back the Hagia Sophia to the dude with long beard".  Wink
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« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2006, 11:59:17 AM »

'I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!'

Thank you Barry Goldwater Smiley and that quote helped quite a lot in that election! LOL
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« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2006, 12:08:27 PM »

Thank you Barry Goldwater Smiley and that quote helped quite a lot in that election! LOL

I think Lyndon Johnson took most advantage of Goldwater's adage about extremism and moderation. Remember the Daisy ad?
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« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2006, 12:08:47 PM »

I read this morning that the Pope (while praying) was moving his lips.

- In a related story -

Turkish lip reader claims that Pope was saying "Jesus, please show them the light and at the same time make them give back the Hagia Sophia to the dude with long beard".  Wink

 Cheesy
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« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2006, 01:13:49 PM »

I must say, this is the most polyglot Mass I've ever seen! French, Latin, Turkish, Italian, English, Aramaic, Syriac, Armenian. . . I've lost count.
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« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2006, 01:18:05 PM »

DESPICABLE!!!   Angry Angry Angry

===============================================

Silent Prayer, Words of Hope as Pope Visits Mosque

By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, December 1, 2006; A21



ISTANBUL, Nov. 30 -- Pope Benedict XVI slipped out of his red Prada loafers and padded in white slippered feet across the carpeted floor of Istanbul's revered Blue Mosque on Thursday, in only the second papal visit ever to a Muslim house of worship.

Near the end of the tour, the pope's host, Istanbul's chief cleric, Mustafa Cagrici, said quietly, "Now, I'm going to pray." The Christian world's most powerful leader lowered his eyes and appeared to mouth his own brief, silent prayer as the lights of the mosque glinted off the heavy gold cross nestled against his white frock.

For just under a minute, Benedict stood facing Mecca alongside the Islamic cleric beneath the exquisite blue-tiled dome of one of the world's most famous mosques, a visual gesture of reverence to a Muslim world he angered in September by quoting a Byzantine emperor who accused Islam of embracing violence.

"Thank you for this moment of prayer," the pope told Cagrici as they shuffled out of the cavernous 17th-century structure, known formally as Sultan Ahmet Mosque
, with Benedict's white stocking slippers peeking from beneath his floor-length robes. In Islam, it is forbidden to wear shoes inside a mosque.

"This visit will help us find together the way of peace for the good of all humanity," the pope said.

"A single swallow can't bring spring," Cagrici told the pope. "But many swallows will follow, and we will enjoy a spring in this world."

Some Turks were angry that the Roman Catholic leader, on his first trip to a Muslim country in the 19 months he has been pope, entered a mosque. Police dispersed a few dozen demonstrators who protested outside the Blue Mosque several hours before Benedict's arrival.

Others welcomed the pope's gestures of goodwill. "Each message the pope gives in Turkey is important," said Ali Adakoglu, editor of Gercek Hayat, a weekly magazine popular among conservative Muslim university students. "It's important not only for Turkey, but for the world, which could have a clash of civilizations."

Adakoglu added, "But is he saying nice things only for the sake of being polite, or is he really behind his warm messages?"

Snipers stood guard in the mosque's minarets. Just before the pope arrived, the wail of the call to prayer competed with the rumble of helicopters policing the area from above, part of the stringent security precautions Turkey has taken for the pontiff's four-day trip, which ends Friday.

Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II, made the first papal visit to a mosque, in Damascus in 2001. Benedict added the Blue Mosque to his itinerary as an overture to Muslims and Turkish nationalists suspicious of his visits here with leaders of Orthodox and Armenian Christian churches, who have complained of discrimination and repression in Turkey.

Benedict's tour has tested his diplomatic skills as he treads carefully across the fault lines of religious conflict both modern and ancient. He has used the trip not only to try to mend his relations with the Muslim world, but also to try to improve the Vatican's ties with the Orthodox and Armenian Christian churches, which split with Rome centuries ago.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, who from his seat in Istanbul acts of spiritual head of Orthodox Christianity's 250 million members worldwide, invited the pontiff to Turkey a year ago, long before the pope's speech that incited Muslims.

After nearly a millennium of conflict between Rome and the Orthodox church, the pope and the patriarch called Thursday for a combined effort to salvage the declining membership and stature of both churches in Europe, where Christians are increasingly abandoning religion as Islam gains followers and influence.

"In Europe, while remaining open to other religions and to their cultural contributions, we must unite our efforts to preserve Christian roots, traditions and values," the leaders said in a joint statement after an elaborate, two-hour St. Andrew's Day service in the Orthodox Church of St. George near the banks of the Bosporus Strait.

And while the pope was willing to pray in the Blue Mosque, he avoided any overt show of prayer when he visited the Haghia Sophia -- once considered Christendom's grandest house of worship. In 1453, Ottoman Turks captured Constantinople, now Istanbul, and turned the church into a mosque. It was declared a museum in 1935 after Turkey became a secular republic.

Press and television commentators here had speculated about whether the pope would attempt a prayer in Haghia Sophia or make a comment urging the government to return it to its status as a place of worship.

He did neither. He did, however, raise folded hands for a few seconds toward the recently refurbished ceiling mosaic of the Virgin Mary, and as he entered the soaring spaces of the onetime cathedral, his face seemed more animated than in any other public appearance of his trip.

Special correspondent Yonca Poyraz-Dogan contributed to this report.

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« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2006, 02:37:43 PM »

Ummm...so he prayed with a cleric of a faith which he has inadvertantly criticized, enraged, and in general burned some bridges with.

On the other hand, out of respect for the religious majority in a secular nation he did not give any "overt show of prayer."

Does it really matter??  In the end he is still a Latin who has fallen away from the One, True, Holy, Apostiolic Church.

If he had prayed openly in the Hagia Sophia, how many Orthodox would be running around screaming about how the heretic prayed in one of "their" holy sites??
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« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2006, 02:46:53 PM »

Praying overtly in Hagia Sophia (I have no doubt he prayed silently) would have offended his hosts and ruined all the overtures for peace and goodwill he has been so careful to offer on his apostolic journey to Turkey. The resulting furor would have dominated the coverage of his trip and drowned out his message. It also would have hurt His All Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch, who, last I checked, isn't causing an unnecessary incident by praying overtly in Hagia Sophia either.

His visit to the Blue Mosque was a gesture of charity and respect, virtues sorely needed if we are to avoid unholy violence between Christians and Muslims.
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« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2006, 03:09:08 PM »

The Patriarchate will tell you if you go to visit them and get a guide for Agia Sophia - Don't make obvious prayer there, because then we won't be invited back - it wouldn't take much for the Turks to ban all Christians or all foreigners from the place.  Say your prayers silently (you know - Palamas and all!) and pray for the restoration of the world to Christ's church.
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« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2006, 05:57:39 PM »

It seems there are always those who will seek to make a defeat out of a victory.  Oh well.

This is a good article.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1714
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« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2006, 06:30:30 PM »

What a beautiful and poignant article, Welkodox.
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« Reply #98 on: December 01, 2006, 06:51:07 PM »

So...is the article author Orthodox? I hope so...

Quote
Finally, it comes time for Communion. My father asks me if I will go, and I reply that I probably should not. He urges me to, and I give in.
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« Reply #99 on: December 01, 2006, 07:26:35 PM »

So...is the article author Orthodox? I hope so...


I've done a bit of research. He's Orthodox. He converted to the Antiochene Church 2 years ago.

Here's a little bio:

Joshua S. Treviño is the Vice President for Public Policy at the Pacific Research Institute. Before coming to PRI, he was an Associate at Booz Allen Hamilton, Inc. He served in the Administration of George W. Bush as a speechwriter and International Communications Coordinator for the Secretary of Health and Human Services from 2001 through 2004. He holds bachelor's degrees in history and political science from Furman University in Greenville, South Carolina. Mr. Treviño is a veteran of the United States Army and a native of Texas. He converted to Orthodoxy in 2004, and lives in Sacramento, California, with his wife Michelle.

From what I understand, he converted from Catholicism. He's surprisingly ecumenical for such a recent convert. Whatever he is, great article.
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« Reply #100 on: December 01, 2006, 08:16:01 PM »

So...is the article author Orthodox? I hope so...

http://popeandpatriarch.com/?q=node

I thought the part about the police tearing down the Archons sign was interesting.

I also found this article interesting.

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=columnists&alt=&trh=20061130&hn=38802
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« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2006, 09:04:10 AM »

Please see this related thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10358.0.html
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« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2006, 09:07:02 AM »

And while the pope was willing to pray in the Blue Mosque, he avoided any overt show of prayer when he visited the Haghia Sophia -- once considered Christendom's grandest house of worship.
We all realize that the press would have promptly pilloried the Pope for "offending the Moslems' sensibilities", right?

And the heathen mob might have hung him for real.
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« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2006, 09:16:55 AM »

We all realize that the press would have promptly pilloried the Pope for "offending the Moslems' sensibilities", right?

And the heathen mob might have hung him for real.

Nonetheless, he could have avoided going to the mosque at all. Orthodox Christians aren't even permitted to go inside mosques, and some faithful I know in Sofia say it's appropriate to spit while walking by the mosque regrettably still standing there. Why should the rules be different for Benedict?
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« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2006, 09:52:11 AM »

Why should the rules be different for Benedict?
We can only hope that his simple display of Christian humility might shame some of the Muhammedan into questioning their faith.

But I do realize it was water off the back of a duck to most of them.
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« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2006, 11:48:22 AM »

The Boston Globe has an editorial on this very subject:


Benedict's grand gesture
December 2, 2006

ON HIS VISIT to Turkey this week, Pope Benedict XVI made amends for earlier remarks that offended many Muslims. The pope's turnabout, and the positive reaction of Muslims in Turkey, offers hope that Christians and Muslims can find ways to overcome the inevitable frictions involved in a continuous process of engagement.

In September, the pope's citation of an anti-Muslim statement by a 14th-century Byzantine emperor caused a furor throughout the Muslim world. The controversy turned what was to have been a visit of reconciliation between Catholic and Orthodox Christians into a test of Christian-Muslim relations.

Given that the trip was already scheduled, the pope's choice of statements was particularly maladroit. It reminds his Turkish hosts that, a few decades after the emperor's harsh words, the Turks conquered Constantinople, destroyed the Byzantine empire, and brought Orthodox Christianity under Muslim overlordship.

When the pope arrived in Istanbul, as Constantinople was renamed in 1930, he was careful not to give offense. He reversed his position that Turkey should not become a full member of the European Union. And when he visited Hagia Sophia, once the preeminent Orthodox basilica, then a mosque, and now a museum, he walked about as a tourist rather than kneel in prayer as Pope Paul VI did in 1967. (Some Muslims thought Paul was trying to re-Christianize the place.)

Benedict's grand gesture came Thursday at the splendid Blue Mosque. He took off his shoes, as Muslims do before entering. And then, wrote the newspaper Hurriyet, "he turned toward Mecca and prayed [standing] like Muslims." The p ope knew just the right touches to show Muslims that he honored their faith.

The pope also reminded Turks that he wanted them to treat the few Orthodox Christians remaining in their country with respect. The Orthodox patriarch, whose headquarters are in Istanbul, is circumscribed in ways that would be intolerable in any society that values religious freedom. The patriarchate, for instance, cannot own property, and the patriarch can only be chosen from Turkish citizens. Turkey will have difficulty entering the EU until it allows Orthodox Christians and members of other religious minorities the space to fully express their faiths.

The pope's visit, with its push-and-pull between deference and polite criticism, offers a model for how Christians and Muslims should deal with one another. They cannot ignore their shared history -- conquest and persecution and profound disagreements over doctrine and day-to-day religious practices. But they can find commonality in their belief in the transcendent, and the singularity of the divine. Dialogue and respect will do much to soothe the tensions inherent in contact between two great religious traditions.
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« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2006, 12:21:04 PM »

Quote
Benedict's grand gesture came Thursday at the splendid Blue Mosque. He took off his shoes, as Muslims do before entering. And then, wrote the newspaper Hurriyet, "he turned toward Mecca and prayed [standing] like Muslims." The p ope knew just the right touches to show Muslims that he honored their faith.
So here's one of the looming questions.  What was he praying?  At first glance it sounds as, though, he was worshiping in a Muslim service.  However, after second thought it could also be concluded that he was praying as a Christian in a Muslim posture.  Jerusalim isn't that far away from Mecca? Wink
Nevertheless, it's interesting and I wonder what the real case was? 
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"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
lubeltri
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« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2006, 12:42:10 PM »

We can only hope that his simple display of Christian humility might shame some of the Muhammedan into questioning their faith.

Or at least to see Christians less as an enemy and to desire more fervently peace with us.

If Benedict is going to engage in the frank dialogue with them that he believes me must do, he has to show his good faith and respect. Perhaps some people, surprised by Benedict's graciousness, will go back to the Regensburg speech, read it, and discover what he really was saying.

Remember, to the outside world, Benedict pretty much speaks for all Christians. That's a big responsibility.
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lubeltri
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« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2006, 12:56:07 PM »

So here's one of the looming questions.  What was he praying?  At first glance it sounds as, though, he was worshiping in a Muslim service.  However, after second thought it could also be concluded that he was praying as a Christian in a Muslim posture.  Jerusalim isn't that far away from Mecca? Wink
Nevertheless, it's interesting and I wonder what the real case was? 

Well, I think the Mecca deal isn't that important. The Mufti was praying in Mecca's direction as he is bound to do. It would be bizarre for the Pope, being next to him, to turn his back to him and pray in a different direction. I can imagine the media reaction afterwards.

Though you are right about Jerusalem. I just consulted a map, and it is almost exactly in the same direction from Istanbul as Mecca.

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bripat22
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« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2006, 01:14:54 PM »

We all realize that the press would have promptly pilloried the Pope for "offending the Moslems' sensibilities", right?

And the heathen mob might have hung him for real.

 I guess these are the reactions of the "heathen mob".  We really MUSt remember that they may not be of our Faith but they are human beings with dignity given to them by God and not a faceless mass or mob. 

       http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/europe_turks_on_the_pope/html/1.stm
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For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
bergschlawiner
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« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2006, 11:33:55 PM »

The remarks from ordinary Turks on the street were a far cry from what the response would have been from people on the street of a secular American city, say like Seattle, who had to deal with such a visit.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 11:34:13 PM by bergschlawiner » Logged
hedley
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« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2006, 07:21:06 PM »

I found Srdja Trifkovic's views interesting: http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/cgi-bin/newsviews.cgi/Islam/Pope_in_Turkey_A_Re.html?seemore=y
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