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Author Topic: Early saints and the supremacy of the pope  (Read 2509 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bono Vox
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« on: November 27, 2006, 10:43:42 PM »

Does anyone have any websites or quotes from Orthodox saints refuting the "Supremacy" of the Pope of Rome???

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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 11:13:53 PM »

A whole book of 'em...........

jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Lks/AbGu/AbGu.htm

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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 11:38:35 PM »

Sure. Here is MaximusConfessor:

"For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate Son of God himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received UNIVERSAL AND SUPREME DOMINION, AUTHORITY, AND POWER OF BINDING AND LOOSING OVER ALL THE HOLY CHURCHES OF GOD THROUGHOUT THE WORLD." (Letter to Peter)

In another letter he carries the same line of thought:

Quote
"The extremities of the earth, and everyone in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman church and her confession and faith, as to a sun of unfailing light awaiting from her the brilliant radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers, according to that which the inspired and holy Councils have stainlessly and piously decreed. For, from the descent of the Incarnate Word amongst us, all the churches in every part of the world have held the greatest church alone to be their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell will never prevail against her, that she has the keys of orthodox confession and right faith in him, that she opens the true and exclusive religion to such men as approach with piety, ans she shuts up and locks every heretical mouth which speaks aginst the Most High."


If MaxCon is a "saint" then the EO better listen to him.

NONCHALcedonian (for a reason)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 11:39:16 PM by nonchal » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2006, 01:32:31 AM »

For those interested in a balanced treatment St. Maximus' view of the papacy, as opposed to simple apologetical quotations taken out of context and translated to serve a Romanist agenda, I recommend Dr. Larchet's article entitled The Question of the Roman Primacy in the Thought of St. Maximus the Confessor, which was published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity in the book "The Petrine Ministry" (edited by Walter Cardinal Kasper) earlier this year.

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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 01:42:34 AM »

For those interested in a balanced treatment St. Maximus' view of the papacy, as opposed to simple apologetical quotations taken out of context and translated to serve a Romanist agenda, I recommend Dr. Larchet's article entitled The Question of the Roman Primacy in the Thought of St. Maximus the Confessor, which was published by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity in the book "The Petrine Ministry" (edited by Walter Cardinal Kasper) earlier this year.

God bless,
Todd

I read this. Too bad he doesn't address the most important quotes. For instance I don't think he even mentioned the first quote above. Overall this work is superficial like most EO 'apologetic' against the Sovereign PostChalcedonian Papal Rule.
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 01:53:55 AM »

Who translated your quotations?  Where did you come across them?  What does the original Greek text say?

As I have said to you before, quotations -- in English translation -- ripped from the context are not a convincing argument.

May God bless you,
Todd
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 01:56:08 AM »

[. . .]  Overall this work is superficial like most EO 'apologetic' against the Sovereign PostChalcedonian Papal Rule.
It was very nice of Cardinal Kasper to publish an Eastern Orthodox apologetical work opposed to papal claims.

God bless,
Todd
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 08:10:50 AM »

Who translated your quotations?  Where did you come across them?  What does the original Greek text say?

As I have said to you before, quotations -- in English translation -- ripped from the context are not a convincing argument.

I fail to see why one would take seriously anything said by one who calls Saint Maximos the Confessor 'MaxCon.' The fact that a person is unable or unwilling to take the time to strike ten keys, inorder that he may properly reference the Saint, should demonstrate the unreliable nature of his scholarship.
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2006, 08:19:21 AM »

I fail to see why one would take seriously anything said by one who calls Saint Maximos the Confessor 'MaxCon.' The fact that a person is unable or unwilling to take the time to strike ten keys, inorder that he may properly reference the Saint, should demonstrate the unreliable nature of his scholarship.
doubleplusgood point there GiC.

It was very nice of Cardinal Kasper to publish an Eastern Orthodox apologetical work opposed to papal claims.
LOL Cheesy
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2006, 01:13:40 PM »

I fail to see why one would take seriously anything said by one who calls Saint Maximos the Confessor 'MaxCon.' The fact that a person is unable or unwilling to take the time to strike ten keys, inorder that he may properly reference the Saint, should demonstrate the unreliable nature of his scholarship.

Is this some kind of joke? I used the same shorthand in regards to GregNssa on the Filioque post. If we want to take MaxCon seriously then we would convert to the RC church. I have no idea who would want to convert to the EO when postChalcedonianism is altogether in favor of Romanism.
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2006, 01:55:50 PM »

Is this some kind of joke? I used the same shorthand in regards to GregNssa on the Filioque post. If we want to take MaxCon seriously then we would convert to the RC church. I have no idea who would want to convert to the EO when postChalcedonianism is altogether in favor of Romanism.

And you completely misinterpreted St. Gregory of Nyssa as well...I see a trend.
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2006, 04:11:42 PM »

Nonchal,

Firstly, this 'Romanism' is the basis of Orthodoxy. It is in no way an insult, unless you are referring to Roman Catholicism. The Byzantine Empire was Roman. Constantinople is New Rome, and thus, the religion was carried by the true Roman people.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2006, 11:32:28 PM »

Nonchal,

Firstly, this 'Romanism' is the basis of Orthodoxy. It is in no way an insult, unless you are referring to Roman Catholicism. The Byzantine Empire was Roman. Constantinople is New Rome, and thus, the religion was carried by the true Roman people.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

If I might be so bold as to assert 'it was not Romanism that made Christianity great, it was Christ'. May we never be so blind in our delusions of grander to forget this most important fact. It is not the particulars of our humanity or society which lifts up our Heavenly King but our Heavenly King who lifts us up into renewed dignity and virtue not the other way round.

Is it not wiser to think less of ourselves and our society and more of Him? I dare say so.

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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 02:22:41 AM »

Since the Papal Primacy proved through Patristic quotes is locked:

I came across this:

The traditions of the Syriac Church of Antioch concerning the primacy and prerogatives of St. Peter and of his successors the Roman Pontiffs ... By Cyril Benham Benni
http://books.google.com/books?id=wpgMAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I have to say, not terribly impressed. On "The Roman Pontiffs, the Only Legitimate Successors," it has

Quote
'As any Partriarch has a juridic power, in what he pleases, over those who are under his authority, so the Roman Patriarch has jurisdiction over all Patriarchs; in the same manner as the blessed Peter (had) it over the whole state of the Church'  Council of of Nice, Canon viii

The only problem is that Nicea canon viii says no such thing:
Quote
Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy.  But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church.  Wheresoever, then, whether in villages or in cities, all of the ordained are found to be of these only, let them remain in the clergy, and in the same rank in which they are found.  But if they come over where there is a bishop or presbyter of the Catholic Church, it is manifest that the Bishop of the Church must have the bishop’s dignity; and he who was named bishop by those who are called Cathari shall have the rank of presbyter, unless it shall seem fit to the Bishop to admit him to partake in the honour of the title.  Or, if this should not be satisfactory, then shall the bishop provide for him a place as Chorepiscopus, or presbyter, in order that he may be evidently seen to be of the clergy, and that there may not be two bishops in the city.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.vii.vi.xii.html

It doesn't deal with the issue of St. Peter at Antioch.
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 08:25:31 AM »

sure, see here:

http://www.roca.org/OA/126-127/126e.htm
http://grani.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 09:03:52 AM »

Well, you know that I have to bring in, whenever possible, an Irish Orthodox component.....  laugh

Last Sunday, 6th December was (New Calendar) the Feast of three Irish Saints, the Bishops who worked with Saint Patrick to evangelise Ireland.


Ss. Auxilius, Isserninus and Secundinus, Bishops
----------------------------------------------------
5th century. Fellow workers under Saint Patrick in the evangelization
of Ireland. The decree signed by the four, reminding the Irish clergy
that appeals from the judgement of Armagh may be made to Rome, is still
extant (Benedictines).

This is one of the canons of the so-called First Synod of Patrick, which
contains decrees to the clergy by bishops Patricius, Auxlius, and
Iserninus. It can be found in The Irish Penitentials. Ed. Ludwig Bieler,
with an appendix by David Binchy. Dublin: The Dublin Institute for
Advanced Studies, 1963, and perhaps also John T. McNeill and Helena M.
Gamer, Medieval Handbooks of Penance. New York: Columbia University
Press, 1938.

I don't have either text on hand and so can't compare it to the
regulations at the end of the Liber Angeli in the Book of Armagh. These
are primarily concerned with Armagh's pre-eminence in the Irish church,
but the last declares that if Armagh can't solve something, the matter
is to be referred to Rome. It can be found in Bieler. The Patrician
Texts in the Book of Armagh. Scriptores Latini Hiberniae. Dublin: The
Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1979, pp. 188-191 (facing pages
in Latin and English):

"Further, any exceptional difficulty which may arise, (the law on which)
is unknown to all the judges of the Irish people, is by law to be
referred to the see of the archbishop of the Irish, that is (the see) of
Patrick, for examination by its bishop; if, however, such a suit in the
said litigation cannot easily be decided there by wise men, we decree
that it is to be sent to the apostolic see, that is, to the see of Peter
the apostle, who has authority over the city of Rome*.
These are (the
men) who have made this decree, that is, Auxilius, Patrick, Secundinus,
Benignus; after the death of the holy Patrick his disciples have
frequently copied his books."



* It is interesting that while Rome is obviously thought of as an appellate
court, the Irish Canons reference the see of Peter as having authority over
the city of Rome, and not the whole world.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints
¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤




« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 09:04:27 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 11:39:09 PM »

You can just read in the Bible where Paul admonishes Peter regarding his hypocritical actions towards the converts. For some reason I doubt that Paul kissed his hand before accusing him...  Roll Eyes

Galatians 2:11-14

But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2009, 06:59:55 PM »

Just came across this in reference to another thread:

Before entering on the study of this volume, the student will do well to read the interesting work which I have quoted; but the following extract merits a place just here, and I cannot deprive even the casual reader of the benefit of such a preface from the non-ecclesiastical and purely literary pen of the Dean. He says: “The See of Alexandria was then the most important in the world.The Alexandrian church was the only great seat of Christian learning. Its episcopate was the Evangelical See, as founded by the chair of St. Mark.…Its occupant, as we have seen, was the only potentate of the time who bore the name of pope.  (That is, of “the pope,” as Wellington was called “the duke.” But Cyprian was called papa, even by the Roman clergy). After the Council of Nicæa he became the judge of the world, from his decisions respecting the celebration of Easter; and the obedience paid to his judgment in all matters of learning, secular and sacred, almost equalled that paid in later days to the ecclesiastical authority of the popes of the West. ‘The head of the Alexandrian church,’ says Gregory Nazianzen, ‘is the head of the world.’”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf06.ii.html

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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2009, 02:41:23 AM »

Another biblical example:

1 Cor. 3:

4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

You could just substitute Peter for "Paul" here.
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