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Author Topic: Is it a crime for Muslim clerics to acknowledge God in public places?  (Read 13367 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2006, 06:25:11 PM »

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You might as well wish that the followers of Islam were peaceful.

Every Muslim I've ever known has been.

And did you meet them all here in the United States where they are a decided minority?
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« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2006, 06:26:48 PM »

Iraqi citizens have the right to fight against violations of their national sovereignty.

By torturing and killing their fellow countrymen?

Please, don't insult our intelligence!
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« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2006, 06:28:11 PM »

Suicide bombing appears to be an act of desperation.

Still attempting to get that dog to hunt, I see.

How about admitting that it is an act of desperation practiced by Muslims and Marxists?
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« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2006, 02:00:41 AM »

Still attempting to get that dog to hunt, I see.

How about admitting that it is an act of desperation practiced by Muslims and Marxists?
   What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause...
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/11187/printer
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« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2006, 04:43:28 AM »

Matthew,

You can hardly describe the 'proxy bomb' attacks (which I do remember) as suicide bombings. Other than the fact that they relied on a human to guide and die with the device, they are completely different. If it wasn't a tautology, murder bombing would seem a more appropriate term for the tactic you described. And I'd hardly describe republican terrorists as desperate either, so had the IRA used suicide bombing tactics (which you have singularly failed to show) then you'd have a hard time arguing that desperation was the cause. I seriously doubt that desperation is the cause of suicide bombings amongst the Tamil Tigers or Muslims either - it's their ideologies that cause them to choose such a tactic over more conventional guerrilla warfare.

James
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« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2006, 08:05:39 AM »

You can hardly describe the 'proxy bomb' attacks (which I do remember) as suicide bombings.

How many Islamic suicide bombers would you suppose are forced into their lot?

I seriously doubt that desperation is the cause of suicide bombings amongst the Tamil Tigers or Muslims either - it's their ideologies that cause them to choose such a tactic over more conventional guerrilla warfare.

What say you of their common cause, to fight against Western-style democracies that have taken over their homelands?
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« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2006, 08:25:20 AM »

How many Islamic suicide bombers would you suppose are forced into their lot?

Many don't seem forced, but perfectly willing. Haven't you seen examples of the genre of the "martyrdom video", where people who are about to blow themselves up talk about how proud they are of their religious devotion? Some have been posted to YouTube, although they often get taken down pretty quickly.
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« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2006, 08:42:18 AM »

How many Islamic suicide bombers would you suppose are forced into their lot?
Oh, come off it. A few maybe are forced. The majority clearly aren't. They may have been indoctrinated to do so but then the fact that this is even possible tells you something about their ideology doesn't it? Look, I work just down the road from the 7/7 bomb factory and grew up in the area so I know pretty well what the Muslim community here is like. There's absolutely no chance that any of them were forced to blow themselves up in London, and yet they did so. There's also no chance that they were desperate. What could possibly have made them so desperate as to do such a thing having grown up in affluent England?

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What say you of their common cause, to fight against Western-style democracies that have taken over their homelands?
I say that it's more or less incidental. If you were talking about a phenomenon confined to places like the Holy Land and Iraq you'd have a point. But how does that apply to British Muslims from the Indian subcontinent or converts? What homeland do they have that has been taken over? The fact that suicide bombings are found amongst Muslims with no reason to feel desperate or oppressed shows that there is something more to the phenomenon - the ideology of radical Islam.

James
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« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2006, 09:49:02 AM »

   What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland.
Poppycock.

As we see with the sectarian violence in Iraq (which constitue the primary source of current suicide bomb attacks), the primary targets are members of opposing Moslem sects.
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« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2006, 02:19:25 AM »

I want to thank James for sharing about St. Stephen the Great
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« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2006, 02:25:53 AM »

to comment on more recent discussion on this thread. I concur: one has to account for the fact that well-educated, middle class (or higher) muslims are participating in suicide attacks.

Multiculturalism just cannot accept that maybe it's not social structures. Maybe it's bad belief. Maybe someone's religion is bad stuff; maybe it's objectively (not just subjectivey) wrong!
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« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2006, 03:39:15 AM »

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Multiculturalism just cannot accept that maybe it's not social structures. Maybe it's bad belief. Maybe someone's religion is bad stuff; maybe it's objectively (not just subjectivey) wrong!

I don't know if it is that simple.  The Islamic world hasn't gone through their own reformation, renaissance and enlightenment.  When their political situation stabilizes, the radicals begin to fall from power, hopefully the same sort of intellectual transformation that happened in the West will also happen in the Islamic world.  Lest we become too disdainful of the Muslim world, it was only 60 years ago that 12,000,000 people were systematically murdered in the heart of Christian Europe.
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« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2006, 04:08:27 AM »

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The fact that suicide bombings are found amongst Muslims with no reason to feel desperate or oppressed shows that there is something more to the phenomenon - the ideology of radical Islam.

The assignation of Franz Ferdinand is similar to a modern suicide attack, or at least the attackers attempted to kill themselves but proved too incompetent to do so.  There is the case of the Japanese military during WWII.  The killers at Columbine engaged in a suicide attack.  Murder-suicides arn't that uncommon.  Radical Islam certainly exacerbates the problem, but I think there are some deeper roots (and deeper roots than the bleeding heart "opprossed" Palestine propoganda). 
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« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2006, 04:19:21 AM »

The fact that suicide bombings are found amongst Muslims with no reason to feel desperate or oppressed shows that there is something more to the phenomenon - the ideology of radical Islam.
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Over the past two years, I have compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 - 315 in all. This includes every episode in which at least one terrorist killed himself or herself while trying to kill others, but excludes attacks authorized by a national government (like those by North Korean agents against South Korea). The data show that there is far less of a connection between suicide terrorism and religious fundamentalism than most people think.

The leading instigator of suicide attacks is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion. This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27). Even among Muslims, secular groups like the Kurdistan Workers' Party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Al Aksa Martyr Brigades account for more than a third of suicide attacks.

    What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause...
 Three general patterns in the data support these conclusions. First, nearly all suicide terrorist attacks - 301 of the 315 in the period I studied - took place as part of organized political or military campaigns. Second, democracies are uniquely vulnerable to suicide terrorists; America, France, India, Israel, Russia, Sri Lanka and Turkey have been the targets of almost every suicide attack of the past two decades. Third, suicide terrorist campaigns are directed toward a strategic objective: from Lebanon to Israel to Sri Lanka to Kashmir to Chechnya, the sponsors of every campaign - 18 organizations in all - are seeking to establish or maintain political self-determination.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/11187/printer

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« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2006, 12:04:28 PM »

This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27).
Right, like we have been saying, Muslims are committing most of these attacks. Even citing only two of the Muslim terrorists groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, we see that they have committed 81 suicide bombings compared to 76 for the Tamil Tigers.

I know you were attempting to prove the opposite point but the facts turned the tables here.
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« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2006, 12:06:47 PM »

The assignation of Franz Ferdinand is similar to a modern suicide attack, or at least the attackers attempted to kill themselves but proved too incompetent to do so.
Actually, they attempted to kill themselves only when it became evident that they were going to be captured since they knew the Austrians would torture them.

This means it was quite dissimilar from a modern suicide attack.
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« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2006, 01:26:33 PM »

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Actually, they attempted to kill themselves only when it became evident that they were going to be captured since they knew the Austrians would torture them.

This means it was quite dissimilar from a modern suicide attack.

It depends on how loosely suicide attack is defined - the members of the black hand faced an extremely high probality of eventual execution by Hapsburg authorities.  Eitherway, I thought they all took their cyanide capsules immediantly upon doing their deed.  Not all Islamic militants engage in strapping a bomb on themselves, others will do machine gun raids on Israeli settlements knowing that they will be shot and killed by Israeli authorities (AFAIK these ones still get their 72 virgins, make martyr tapes, family gets the promised money etc).  But then again why do American criminals engage in this http://www.suicidebycop.com/index.html?  Why did the Columbine shooters go on a murderous spree and then kill themselves?  Radical Islam is not the only explanation for suicide attacks (nor is the "opprossed homeland" bit either).   
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« Reply #107 on: December 15, 2006, 01:10:07 AM »

none of these other groups cited has as its basis a religion which is considered a direct revelation from God that instructs its adherents to kill infidels. It is historical fact that it is a religion of conversion by the sword.

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« Reply #108 on: December 15, 2006, 02:55:43 AM »

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none of these other groups cited has as its basis a religion which is considered a direct revelation from God that instructs its adherents to kill infidels. It is historical fact that it is a religion of conversion by the sword.

Jews and Christians both have scriptures that they believe are direct revelations from God that instruct them to kill.  The difference is that very few Christians and Jews follow these texts literally - although it is an historical fact that Christians have used violence to convert and enforce religious Orthodox (and some posters here claim that the Orthodox Church today should still use force and legislation to protect Orthodoxy).  The point I'm getting at is some Muslims have radical views, but many do not.  Some groups were converted to Islam by means of force, others gladly converted when exposed to Islam via trade routes or the settlement of Sufis.  To ignore these vast diffrences shows a great ignorance of Islam and greatly oversimplifies the matter.  It is oversimplification that I am arguing against. 

For example:
Oct. 2, 2006: Charles Carl Roberts, 32, took 10 girls hostage in an Amish school in Nickel Mines, Pa., killing five of them before killing himself.

Sept. 27, 2006: Duane Morrison, 53, took six girls hostage at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Co., molesting them and holding them for hours before fatally shooting one girl and then himself.

Mar 21, 2005: Jeff Weise, 16, shot to death his grandfather and his grandfather's girlfriend and then went to his high school in Red Lake, Minnesota, where he killed a security guard, a teacher, and five students, and wounded seven others, before killing himself.

Apr. 24, 2003: In Red Lion, Pa., 14-year old James Sheets shot and killed his middle school principal Eugene Segro in a crowded school cafeteria and then killed himself.

April 29, 2002 - 17-year-old Dragoslav Petkovic opened fire with a handgun shortly after noon at his high school in Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina, killing one teacher and wounding another before taking his own life.

Apr. 26, 2002 - 19-year-old Robert Steinhaeuser, who had been expelled from Johann Gutenberg high school in Erfurt, Germany, returned to the school and shot to death 13 teachers, two students and a police officer before killing himself.

Feb. 19, 2002 - A 22-year-old gunman in Munich, Germany, killed his former boss and a foreman at the company that fired him, then went to a high school in a Munich suburb, where he shot the school's headmaster when he was unable to find the teacher he was after. He then shot another teacher in the face and set off homemade bombs before killing himself.

Apr. 20, 1999: Columbine High School students Dylan Klebold, 17, and Eric Harris, 18, went on a shooting rampage, killing 12 of their classmates and one teacher, a Hoosier native, in Littleton, Colo. Klebold and Harris then kill themselves. The massacre was the bloodiest school shooting in U.S. history.

May 21, 1998: Miles Fox,15, died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head in Onalaska, Wash. Earlier in the day, he boarded a high school bus with a gun in hand, ordered his girlfriend off the bus and took her to his home, where he shot himself.

Mar. 13, 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, dressed in black and wearing earmuffs to protect himself from the noise, entered an elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and sprayed 105 bullets into the gym striking 29 people before killing himself. Sixteen five and 6-year-olds and a teacher died.

Jan. 17, 1989: Patrick Purdy, 26, armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, opened fire on a playground at a Stockton, Ca., elementary school. Five children died and 29 children and one teacher were wounded before Purdy killed himself.

May 20, 1988: Laurie Dann, 30, shot six students at a Winnetka, Ill., elementary school, killing one second-grader. She then shot a man in a nearby house before committing suicide.

Still willing to argue that suicide attacks are a Muslim thing?  Or that they even have to be connected to any political/religious movement? 
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« Reply #109 on: December 15, 2006, 06:04:03 AM »

Many compare the two faiths and state that since Christianity had a bloody history, it is no surprise that Islam should go through their bloody stage. I don't think you can adequatly compare the Christian history and Muslim history that easy however. It's not something to do with numbers, but with the source. For a Christian to kill becuase religious convictions, he would have to clearly deviate from the source of his religious knowledge (The Bible, which although not considered the only source in our faith, it is for the majority of others). On the other hand, if a Muslim was to not kill out of religious belief, he would also have to deviate from his source (the Quran). Christianity became overall more civil due to an increased knowledge of the Bible, while for Islam to become more civil, it seems that there must be decreased knowledge of the Quran, or at least an extreme rewriting of it. Take a look at the U.S., can we all agree that secularism is rampant here and the majority of today's generation don't have adequate knowledge of their own religious text, be it the Quran or the Bible? So what's the result? More deviant Christians, and more civil and loving Muslims.

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« Reply #110 on: December 15, 2006, 09:42:40 AM »

Still willing to argue that suicide attacks are a Muslim thing?
I stand by the facts which show that the majority of suicide bombings being committed in the world today are committed by Moslems.
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« Reply #111 on: December 15, 2006, 12:21:30 PM »

For example:
blah blah

Still willing to argue that suicide attacks are a Muslim thing?  Or that they even have to be connected to any political/religious movement? 

I think we are referring to bombings....and religiously motiveated ones and not isolated examples of people with loose screws.
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« Reply #112 on: December 15, 2006, 02:28:48 PM »

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I don't think you can adequatly compare the Christian history and Muslim history that easy however. It's not something to do with numbers, but with the source. For a Christian to kill becuase religious convictions, he would have to clearly deviate from the source of his religious knowledge (The Bible, which although not considered the only source in our faith, it is for the majority of others).

That only works if you are a Protestant who believes in Sola Scriptura.  For other Christians tradition is equally important - tradition including the veneration of people like Justinian who had his methods of dealing with those pesky "monophysites."  Even on such issues as the Nazi Holocaust, many Christian clerics either condoned it or took parth themselves in (while, of course, many others condemned it and suffered under it).  If you were to take events like those, rip them from context, demonstrate that such people are actually venerated as saints, rip a few quotes from the Old Testament out of context - you could establish that Christianity is an incredibly bloodly and merciless religion in the same manner that has taken some events from Islamic history and some Qu'ranic and Hadith quotes to establish that Islam is a violent and bloody religion. 

Quote
Christianity became overall more civil due to an increased knowledge of the Bible, while for Islam to become more civil, it seems that there must be decreased knowledge of the Quran, or at least an extreme rewriting of it.

The vast majority of our freedoms in the West come from the enlightenment, not Christianity.  In fact many of our liberities are contrary to Christianity - such as free access to abortion and marriages/civil unions for homosexuals.  Many monarchs were able fight this process of liberalization by invoking their Christian divine right to rule.  That is why I have argued before that when Islamic societies go through similar social changes as the West, it is very probable that mainstream Islam will undergo the same transformation that mainstream Christianity has.

Quote
I think we are referring to bombings....and religiously motiveated ones and not isolated examples of people with loose screws.

What I have shown is that people from multiple societies engage in attacks where their own death is the inevitable outcome and for a variety of motivations.  Some are highly organized like the Imperial Japanese military or independent like the aboce mentioned school shootings.  The evidence shows that every society has people with the psychological/moral defect that incites them to kill others and then take their own life.   
 
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« Reply #113 on: December 15, 2006, 02:39:24 PM »

The evidence shows that every society has people with the psychological/moral defect that incites them to kill others and then take their own life. 
Equating mental illness with a violent religion unfortunately embraced by millions not only strains the limits of credibility, it crosses well into utter nonsense.

None of the other cases you cited resulted in the murderer being praised by his fellow countrymen as is the custom in modern Moslem societies.
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« Reply #114 on: December 15, 2006, 02:40:45 PM »

Curious how this thread has meandered from first proving that the six imams were ejected from the aircraft for good cause to some attempting to excuse mass murder.
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« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2006, 03:18:58 PM »

All psychologically unstable people may not be Moslems, but that doesn't mean that all Moslems are not psychologically unstable people. All that you have demonstrated is that the Cancer called Islam is not the world's ONLY problem; however, the fact still remains it is a problem and that it is the Greatest Problem facing the world today.

The vast majority of our freedoms in the West come from the enlightenment, not Christianity.  In fact many of our liberities are contrary to Christianity - such as free access to abortion and marriages/civil unions for homosexuals.  Many monarchs were able fight this process of liberalization by invoking their Christian divine right to rule.  That is why I have argued before that when Islamic societies go through similar social changes as the West, it is very probable that mainstream Islam will undergo the same transformation that mainstream Christianity has.

This would probably be true if we waited long enough, but frankly I dont think we have the time to wait for Islam to become enlightened on its own...the time has come, either embrace the ideals of the enlightenment immediately or we will be forced to annihilate Islam in defence of our culture and society.
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« Reply #116 on: December 15, 2006, 03:35:14 PM »

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All psychologically unstable people may not be Moslems, but all Moslems are psychologically unstable people. All that you have demonstrated is that the Cancer called Islam is not the world's ONLY problem; however, the fact still remains it is a problem and that it is the Greatest Problem facing the world today.

In the past you have even admitted that the secularization of Muslim societies in the same manner as has happened to religion in the West would accomplish the goal of elimating radical Islam as a threat.  I think we agree on this issue (although actual agreement is no reason to cease a debate, right?). 

My complaint is don't judge all of Islamic history as a single entitity.  Rather than condemn all of Islamic history, pick out the positive elements and rehabilitate them (such as Ibn Arabi or the Mutazilites) and condemn Wahabbism.   
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« Reply #117 on: December 15, 2006, 04:22:08 PM »

In the past you have even admitted that the secularization of Muslim societies in the same manner as has happened to religion in the West would accomplish the goal of elimating radical Islam as a threat. 
But is there any evidence of that happening anywhere in the Moslem world?  NO! Take a look at how the Pope's life was threatened if he prayer in Hagia Sophia and the refusal of the Turkish government to allow the Orthodox Christian seminary reopen. Turkey was often cited as being a "moderate" Moslem nation and it is clear that even they are becoming more radical almost daily.
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« Reply #118 on: December 15, 2006, 05:25:14 PM »

In the past you have even admitted that the secularization of Muslim societies in the same manner as has happened to religion in the West would accomplish the goal of elimating radical Islam as a threat.  I think we agree on this issue.

The problem is that, off the top of my head, I can think of one, and only one, Islamic country that actually has the potential of actualizing this: Kuwait; and they have a very long way to go, they may have made many of the necessary political changes, but non-secularized Islam still has a fairly strong hold over large portions of the population. Secularization is certainly the solution to the Islamic Problem; however, I don't see most the Islamic world embracing the ideals of secularism and enlightenment in the immediate future...can we really afford to wait centuries while their societies evolve? Kuwait may only be 100 years behind us, a 100 years that may be shortened because of our cultural influence...but Saudi Arabian culture 500+ years behind the west.


Quote
(although actual agreement is no reason to cease a debate, right?). 

Now I wont debate that...or will I? Wink

Quote
My complaint is don't judge all of Islamic history as a single entitity.  Rather than condemn all of Islamic history, pick out the positive elements and rehabilitate them (such as Ibn Arabi or the Mutazilites) and condemn Wahabbism.   

And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?
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« Reply #119 on: December 15, 2006, 05:46:55 PM »

And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?
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« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2006, 06:03:21 PM »

There is only one man who can achieve this:

Sung to the tune of Horst Wessel Lied no doubt? (Yes, I do know my Nazi propaganda Wink)

But you are right in large part, economic expansion and globalization can do much to turn many countries towards enlightened western culture. However, given the scope of the Islamic problem, it cannot be solved by econonic means alone in any timely manner, in a few states perhaps, but not through most the Islamic world. And as long as radical clerics are warning them against the hedonistic western infidels our propaganda and globalization will have an effect far below their potential. Much like Japan in the 1940's, the people may be willing to embrace our values, but we must first neutralize the negative influences on these peoples.
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« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2006, 07:42:45 PM »

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Turkey was often cited as being a "moderate" Moslem nation and it is clear that even they are becoming more radical almost daily.

Most of the problems going on in Turkey are due to nationalism hence the miserable plight for ethnic minorities that are Muslims.  A large portion of the conflicts are simply the growing pains of a militantly secular regime that is only slowly integrating with the rest of the world.  Hopefully in the process of EU integration most of these problems can be dealt with - that Turkey budged even a milimeter on opening a single port to Cyprus is a start.  As the Greeks say σιγά, σιγά. 

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The problem is that, off the top of my head, I can think of one, and only one, Islamic country that actually has the potential of actualizing this: Kuwait; and they have a very long way to go, they may have made many of the necessary political changes, but non-secularized Islam still has a fairly strong hold over large portions of the population. Secularization is certainly the solution to the Islamic Problem; however, I don't see most the Islamic world embracing the ideals of secularism and enlightenment in the immediate future...can we really afford to wait centuries while their societies evolve?

Realisticly speaking, we don't have any other choice but to wait.  As it is America hardly has the will rebuilt Iraq and Afghanistan - and even there we're letting the Islamists take over.  The only strategy that seems viable for the time being is a mixture of diplomacy, buying our enemies off, small military engagements and token measures to promote our agenda abroad. 

Quote
And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?

There is no rehabilitating THAT monster.  The Wahhabists need to be excised.  The United States and other Western nations need to prohibit Saudi Arabia from funding Mosques in our countries.  Everything that can be done to stop Saudi Arabia's funding and then radicallizing previously docile Muslims around the world needs to be employed.  This is an interesting group FWIW http://www.islamicpluralism.org/wahhabiwatch/ww2006.htm

Things like academic exchanges in the liberal arts - giving sholarships to study the humanities in the West to Muslims from abroad.  Rather than promoting an all out anti-Muslim campaign, focus instead on promoting the afore mentioned positive periods and persons of Islam -liberally giving out grants for research and publication on them.  A good example of this is to look at similar programs aimed at European integration of the former Eastern Bloc - apply what has been successful, discard what hasn't and multiply the effort an hundred fold because the stakes are much higher.  Of course helping to foster sustainable and stable governments and economies is the sine qua non of all of this.  This won't work overnight, and perhaps not even in a generation, but it is better than doing nothing.
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« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2006, 07:53:11 PM »

Things like academic exchanges in the liberal arts - giving sholarships to study the humanities in the West to Muslims from abroad.  Rather than promoting an all out anti-Muslim campaign, focus instead on promoting the afore mentioned positive periods and persons of Islam -liberally giving out grants for research and publication on them.  A good example of this is to look at similar programs aimed at European integration of the former Eastern Bloc - apply what has been successful, discard what hasn't and multiply the effort an hundred fold because the stakes are much higher.  Of course helping to foster sustainable and stable governments and economies is the sine qua non of all of this.  This won't work overnight, and perhaps not even in a generation, but it is better than doing nothing.

It would certainly be better than doing nothing, and would be an improvement from what we are doing right now. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is a thorn in the side of any plan to enlighten the Islamic world. The West made a big mistake in the early 90's in regard to our Middle East policy. We should have done more to befriend Iraq, had we done so we could have protected Kuwait and neutralized Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Revolution in Iran...all for the cost of a few arms shipments.
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« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2006, 09:00:10 PM »

...hence the miserable plight for ethnic minorities that are Muslims.
Yes because the Christian minorities are thriving otherwise... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2006, 09:01:48 PM »

And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?
Dirt nap, no doubt about it. It's the only way to be sure.
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« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2006, 11:33:11 PM »

Dirt nap, no doubt about it. It's the only way to be sure.

WOW...do we actually agree for once??? That only happens once in a blue moon Wink
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« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2006, 09:30:04 PM »

What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.
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« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2006, 10:23:31 PM »

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What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.

Sufis?  You do realize that there a plethora of Sufi orders and great diversity between them?  There have historically been some very violent Sufis and also very peaceful ones.
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« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2006, 02:21:15 PM »

What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.
Aren't the Sufis quite active in the sectarian violence currently occuring in Iraq?
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« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2006, 02:28:09 PM »

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Aren't the Sufis quite active in the sectarian violence currently occuring in Iraq?

No.  That is a Shia/Sunni conflict. 
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« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2006, 06:06:12 PM »

No.  That is a Shia/Sunni conflict. 
I stand corrected.

Then Sufis have nothing to do with Wahhabists, I assume?
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« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2006, 06:24:50 PM »

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Then Sufis have nothing to do with Wahhabists, I assume?

The Wahhabists are extremely anti-Sufi.  When they took power in Saudi Arabia they closed and destroyed all the Sufi shrines. 
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« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2006, 06:51:34 PM »

The Wahhabists are extremely anti-Sufi.  When they took power in Saudi Arabia they closed and destroyed all the Sufi shrines. 

the Wahhabists even put a parking lot on top of Mohammad's alleged house, right?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 06:51:51 PM by Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2006, 07:11:06 PM »

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the Wahhabists even put a parking lot on top of Mohammad's alleged house, right?

Yeah... that was classy of them.
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« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2006, 07:38:27 PM »

What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.

The spiritual leader of the Chechen uprising is a Sufi and quite violent.
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