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Author Topic: Is it a crime for Muslim clerics to acknowledge God in public places?  (Read 13370 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: November 22, 2006, 12:59:24 AM »

U.S. Muslims outraged after imams kicked off plane
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061121/ts_nm/religion_imams_dc

If these allegations are true, they are rather discomforting. Freedom of religion isn't an exclusive right of white Christians.

Peace. 
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 08:49:22 AM »

U.S. Muslims outraged after imams kicked off plane
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061121/ts_nm/religion_imams_dc

If these allegations are true, they are rather discomforting. Freedom of religion isn't an exclusive right of white Christians.

Peace. 

If I had my choice, I would make it a crime. Of course, this is not an issue of law or freedom of religion...they were denied service by a private company, not by a government entity. The company acted in the manner that they believed best served their customers as a whole.
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 05:47:25 PM »

From the looks of it on TV none of these "imams" were wearing clerical garb so how were the other passengers to know they were clergy.  And all Muslims don't stop and pray five times a day wherever they are either.  Watching Iraqi detainees lining up in formations to pray inside the prisons looked like they were fervent believers but when I asked individuals if they prayed at home many replied no, thay they had only started praying in detention and sometimes under peer pressure.  Seems like such public praying under these circumstances is more like a public demonstration!  Like public Rosaries in some European cities like Munich.  Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways in Muslim lands, Christians can't publicly pray any more and in Saudi Arabia could get arrested.
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 08:19:18 PM »

Good point berg!
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 08:54:31 PM »

When Muslims are deprived the right to practice their faith, how soon will the Christians and Jews be next?  This is still America.... right?

Peace.
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 09:22:33 PM »

When Muslims are deprived the right to practice their faith, how soon will the Christians and Jews be next?  This is still America.... right?

Peace.

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 11:01:09 PM »

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.

Here Here! *Bangs hand on table*


Here's how I see it. If the moderate Islamics are so numerous and make up 95% of the Muslim population, why are they afraid to speak out? If they're so numerous and peaceful, why haven't they done anything?

I just read a recent news article in the NY Times. 25% of Muslims interviews out of 10,000 said they would not tell the government if they knew of a terror plot. 15% more said they weren't sure. So, we can't trust 40% of Muslims in our country anymore, it seems.   (By the way, this survey was done in 3-4 different papers around the country. So it wasn't skewed)

They don't have to pray in public. They can pray in their heads if they really need to. It disgusts me to see this show-off-y type of public prayer.
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 11:25:52 PM »

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.

   <bangs head against wall>  That comment has the smell of the 16th century not of today. That is terrible!
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2006, 04:23:11 AM »

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.

Do you care more about eradicating Islam than the principles of our founding fathers and your own right to worship?
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 04:36:52 AM »

Do you care more about eradicating Islam than the principles of our founding fathers and your own right to worship?

Don't know about GiC but for me I won't take the bait by this obvious set- up as the media has. Come on, folks, these "Clerics" meant to provoke a scene. It's part of their agenda and we're following their script. Don't buy it. Toss their butts off the plane (at any altitude?)
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 05:31:18 AM »

This is still America.... right?
Wrong.
This is actually cyberspace.
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 05:52:56 AM »

Wrong.
This is actually cyberspace.


Being an Australian, I'm certain you still understand what the phrase "This is still America" means given the context of this thread.
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2006, 07:00:03 AM »

Being an Australian, I'm certain you still understand what the phrase "This is still America" means given the context of this thread.

Huh Now you're just messing with my head...
....how does being Australian help me understand an American phrase?
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2006, 09:05:15 AM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,


They don't have to pray in public. They can pray in their heads if they really need to. It disgusts me to see this show-off-y type of public prayer.

Along these same lines:

Quote from: Matthew 6:5, 6
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.  But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 02:08:39 PM »

Don't know about GiC but for me I won't take the bait by this obvious set- up as the media has. Come on, folks, these "Clerics" meant to provoke a scene. It's part of their agenda and we're following their script. Don't buy it. Toss their butts off the plane (at any altitude?)

I agree -- if they really were terrorists intent on doing something serious they would do whatever they could to remain UNNOTICED, not cause a scene to get kicked off a plane.
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 05:18:16 PM »

Maybe the Muslims in the US and Western Europe should follow the example of the Christians and have a "vernacular" movement and pray in English, etc.   Not praying in Arabic would go a long way to better relations.
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 03:19:31 PM »

Do you care more about eradicating Islam than the principles of our founding fathers and your own right to worship?

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons. Who cares about their principles? I'd rather look to the acts of righteous Christian rulers, who recognized no such concept as "freedom of religion".
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 04:45:35 PM »

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons. Who cares about their principles? I'd rather look to the acts of righteous Christian rulers, who recognized no such concept as "freedom of religion".

 and the many who died because of the decisions of those "righteous Christian rulers"  I personally am glad I do not live in a theocracy or under a monarch protecting one particular Faith to the persecution of others. Anyone who knows  history will never  idealize any Tsar or Monarch.
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2006, 04:57:41 PM »

When Muslims are deprived the right to practice their faith, how soon will the Christians and Jews be next?  This is still America.... right?
No one is stopping them from practicing their faith. Can they no freely go to any mosque and pray all they want?

Of course not! So much for that prattle.

Try going to Saudi Arabia and do what they did and you will learn the difference!

Or do you think that you could go to any airport in the US and put on any sort of display you wanted and not suffer some consequences? 
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 05:02:19 PM »

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons.
While some of the Founding Fathers were deists, virtually all of them acknowledged some sort of Christian affiliation.
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2006, 05:04:24 PM »

I agree -- if they really were terrorists intent on doing something serious they would do whatever they could to remain UNNOTICED, not cause a scene to get kicked off a plane.
Among the various security specialists that I work with, it appears that the Imams were testing the security responses of the airline and of TSA. This is not the first such incident since 9/11.
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2006, 05:07:50 PM »

Anyone who knows  history will never  idealize any Tsar or Monarch.

The Church has glorified many rulers for protecting Christendom, which often involved ensuring that no other faiths were practised. Would you say that the Church "doesn't know history"? While not infallible, hagiographies and the Church's decisions to glorify her saints are not really up for question.

While some of the Founding Fathers were deists, virtually all of them acknowledged some sort of Christian affiliation.

Sure, plenty gave lip-serve to (generally Protestant) Christian thought. But how many were Orthodox? None? So why should we be looking to them for principles of governance when the Church already has plenty of fine role models for rulers like St Vladimir, St Stephen the Great of Romania, St Constantine and his saintly mother, St Justianian, and so forth?
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2006, 06:53:33 PM »

Saying that because Saints in the past did x y and z when speaking about secular things is like saying that we should wear togas because that's what some Roman saints wore, or churches should not have electricity because none did before 1900.  Being a traditionalist Orthodox, I certainly do not subscribe to modernism, and think "freedom of religion" can be taken too far, but find it to be a condition which has ensured the possibility of the Church's success in America in recent decades.  In Roman times, the rulers allowed Zoroastrian fire temples, mosques, and Latin churches to be constructed in the city in order to get quid pro quo arrangements for Orthodox living in other areas. I think this is a good example to follow--there is no innate humanistic right to have freedom of religion, but it is good for the Church to support it because of the "return on investment."

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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2006, 07:11:39 PM »

Sure, plenty gave lip-serve to (generally Protestant) Christian thought. But how many were Orthodox? None? So why should we be looking to them for principles of governance when the Church already has plenty of fine role models for rulers like St Vladimir, St Stephen the Great of Romania, St Constantine and his saintly mother, St Justianian, and so forth?
Because the results of their governance has given us a nation such that virtually everyone who is born within its borders would never choose any other place to live.

Perchance, are you planning to leave the United States in order to live somewhere else? Yes or no?
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2006, 07:26:50 PM »

Because the results of their governance has given us a nation such that virtually everyone who is born within its borders would never choose any other place to live.

Perchance, are you planning to leave the United States in order to live somewhere else? Yes or no?

Though I hold an American passport, I've spent most of my adult life abroad. After high school I served in the U.S. Navy, then immediately left for Europe. Unfortunately, the board is still slightly broken, otherwise you'd be able to see that I currently divide my time between the Church of Finland and the Romanian Orthodox Church. I'm very happy in the latter country, as are most of the people I meet--those expressing desire to visit the U.S. only want to make a good amount of money real fast and come back to Cluj, not subscribe to American civic values. And the traditionalist Orthodox I know don't even want to visit the U.S. because of the same issues with secularism I brought up above.

And the sheer amount of Americans living abroad makes it ridiculous to claim that "virtually all" Americans want to stay there. My family envies my living abroad, and some are considering a move back to Germany where one part is originally from. Though it may be for various reasons, whether political protest, business opportunities, or just getting tired of speaking English all the time (how it was for me), I think many, many Americans would move abroad if they only had the opportunity.
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2006, 08:50:55 PM »

I would have thought that the societal concessions that Romania was required to make to conform to the EU constitution would make the country a little less appealing in that regard.
And the sheer amount of Americans living abroad makes it ridiculous to claim that "virtually all" Americans want to stay there.
What percentage of the American civilian population is living abroad? 1%? Perhaps 2%? My understanding of the situation supports my statement that "virtually all Americans" are within our borders. Of course, I'd be willing to look at evidence to the contrary
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« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2006, 09:31:40 PM »

The Church has glorified many rulers for protecting Christendom, which often involved ensuring that no other faiths were practised. Would you say that the Church "doesn't know history"? While not infallible, hagiographies and the Church's decisions to glorify her saints are not really up for question.


 Not disputing that but we can and should speak out against the crimes and mistakes of those rulers and above all be thankful to live in a nation where toleration of different religious faiths has meant that we Orthodox can practice our Faith without persecution. 
   I can respect the Church's decision to honor Nicholas II without admiring him as a ruler.
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« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2006, 11:49:25 PM »

....how does being Australian help me understand an American phrase?

Regardless of nationality, you should be able to understand the principles on which our nation was built.
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« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2006, 11:51:44 PM »

I'm certainly not a jingoist and have enjoyed my travels in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, and India, but I am pretty happy to live here in the USA--at least people don't think I am crazy for going to Church most of the time and understand what it means to "convert" to Orthodoxy--the people in Europe I met generally thought that I was a weirdo since I believed in God and went to church, and everyone who knew I went to the Orthodox Church assumed I was Russian and could not understand that not all Orthodox are Russian and that people might actually want to convert to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2006, 02:15:28 AM »

Regardless of nationality, you should be able to understand the principles on which our nation was built.

Ummm, Why should he? "Regardless of Nationality" people should know about US history and structure? In speaking to George or a number of other posters here it is not "our nation" for (speaking for oneself) "my nation" because they do not live in the US, nor are citizens, they live in other countries.  It is often safer to not assume that other people know the same things as oneself.  Do you, regardless of you being of US nationality, understand the principals on which Australia was built or Japan or any other country automatically?  Do you know some real information about the history and developement of Australia, or Slovakia or Myanmar or any other country besides the US? 

Matthew, I'm *not* trying to give you a hard time.  But you have in the past written posts that Americans should know about EO/OO, and now that people in other countries should know about American principals just to give a couple of examples of this pattern.  Why should they? They have their own lives, their own interests and their own concerns. 

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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2006, 02:21:17 AM »

Sure, plenty gave lip-serve to (generally Protestant) Christian thought.

Oh?  How much have you read of the practices and faith of the "founding fathers"?

Quote
But how many were Orthodox? None?

How could any of them have been EO when as far as I've read there was no EO presence in the colonies at that time.  Being EO does not guarantee the abilty to rule wisely, I don't think, and not being EO does not preclude the abilty to govern with ethics and justice.

Quote
So why should we be looking to them for principles of governance when the Church already has plenty of fine role models for rulers like St Vladimir, St Stephen the Great of Romania, St Constantine and his saintly mother, St Justianian, and so forth?

Maybe without their principles of governance there would be little or no opportunity for a person to become EO in this country today?

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2006, 02:23:41 AM »

Not disputing that but we can and should speak out against the crimes and mistakes of those rulers and above all be thankful to live in a nation where toleration of different religious faiths has meant that we Orthodox can practice our Faith without persecution. 
   I can respect the Church's decision to honor Nicholas II without admiring him as a ruler.

Here, here!

Thank you for saying what I believe I (as not EO/OO) cannot say here, without giving the impression that I am "attacking".

Ebor
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« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2006, 02:27:34 AM »

America was built on universal principles; the light to life, liberty and the puersuit of happiness, the dignity of the individual, the necessity of religious liberty, etc.
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« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2006, 02:35:57 AM »

*I* think that those are excellent principals.  But how can you call them "universal"? What is your basis for using that term? 

They were new ideas.  What governments had been set up along those lines before? What countries had rights to the "pursuit of happiness" or to liberty? (I recognize your phrasing as that of the "Declaration of Independence"  I assure you.  Yes, Jefferson wrote that "We hold these truths to be self-evident.."  But much of the world did not hold them so or even thing about such rights at all?)   How much European (let along World) history and political structure have you read? Have you read Locke?  or in-depth writings from Jefferson or other figures? 

Just because a person likes something does not make it "Universal".

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« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2006, 02:52:06 AM »

*I* think that those are excellent principals.  But how can you call them "universal"? What is your basis for using that term? 

Those Enlightenment philosophers who maintained belief in God asserted that these principles are God's thumbprint within us, that they are the natural law that we instinctively know government and civil society must follow.
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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2006, 08:24:17 AM »

America was built on universal principles; the light to life, liberty and the puersuit of happiness, the dignity of the individual, the necessity of religious liberty, etc.
None of which are acknowledged by the religion of Islam.
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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2006, 06:09:34 PM »

We should take the moral highground then, and allow Muslims to be free in our country.

Peace.
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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2006, 06:21:53 PM »

We should take the moral highground then, and allow Muslims to be free in our country.

Peace.

Why?
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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2006, 06:39:27 PM »

Why? Because that's what the framers of our Constitution would have wanted.
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2006, 07:38:36 PM »

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons. Who cares about their principles? I'd rather look to the acts of righteous Christian rulers, who recognized no such concept as "freedom of religion".

Well, um, actually that rather begs the question. But it appears that the truth was that very few of the FFs were masons-- maybe eight in the Cont. Congress, about twice that many in the Constitutional Convention, which was over twice as large-- and not all that many were deists. They were not overwhelming religious, but they spread pretty evenly across the religious affliliation of the time. Of course, most of those groups had experience being the disestablished church-- they couldn't all be Episcopalians, for all the good that did the latter.
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2006, 07:42:23 PM »

Why? Because that's what the framers of our Constitution would have wanted.

You sure about that? Originally the first amendment only applied to the federal government, not the states. At issue was not individual liberty, rather at issue was states rights. This did not change until the 14th amendment.
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2006, 09:16:41 PM »

You sure about that? Originally the first amendment only applied to the federal government, not the states. At issue was not individual liberty, rather at issue was states rights. This did not change until the 14th amendment.

Perhaps, but since many states already had established such rights by that point, it was pretty much moot until Brigham YoungUtah came along and forced the issue.
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2006, 09:26:10 PM »

Perhaps, but since many states already had established such rights by that point, it was pretty much moot until Brigham YoungUtah came along and forced the issue.

Of course, the mormons were also driven out of the east by people who, understandably, had little tolerance for their cult. I doubt that practicing mohammedans would have been much better received.
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« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2006, 11:16:55 PM »

If the practice of Islam within our country posed a true threat to our civil liberties, I believe that it would call for suppression by the government. But every Muslim I've ever met has been rather "moderate," and I don't see any American Muslim cleric who calls for an Islamic theocracy in our country.

Peace.
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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2006, 11:38:51 PM »

If the practice of Islam within our country posed a true threat to our civil liberties, I believe that it would call for suppression by the government. But every Muslim I've ever met has been rather "moderate," and I don't see any American Muslim cleric who calls for an Islamic theocracy in our country.

The mere existance of Islam is a threat to the civil liberties of all human beings. Did you know that a full 80% of the mosques in this country are controlled by the Wahhabis? If that isn't a radical Islamic presence I dont know what would be. I dont know about your personal experience with mohammedans, but the fact of the matter is that the Islamisists in this country have failed to distance themselves from and condemn their middle eastern counterparts and thus should be regarded as complicit in the crimes of their middle eastern brethren. Islam is a plague and if we dont completely and utterly destroy it, it will destory us.
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« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2006, 11:58:48 PM »

Islam killed countless numbers of my people. My most primal instincts make me want to hate Islam and everything it stands for. But love, on the other hand, compels me to tolerate the faith of individual Muslims. Which urge is more correct?

Peace.
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« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2006, 12:51:53 AM »

Islam killed countless numbers of my people. My most primal instincts make me want to hate Islam and everything it stands for. But love, on the other hand, compels me to tolerate the faith of individual Muslims. Which urge is more correct?

Peace.

Islam has killed millions of Orthodox, other christians, and even their own people in a craze to be islamic. I'ts fnny and sad because many ppl I've spoken to about Islam have told me that Islam today is full of radicalism but the "true" Islam, aka Mohammed's Islam was all about peace, love, and justice. Why then, whenever I think about Islam, I have this bloddy image in my mind of hordes of armies spreading west to Egypt, Constantinople, Syria, and destroying everything, killing or forcing ppl to convert?? History repeats itself and many ppl in the west (at least where I live) are ignorant about this fact. One muslim kid in my relig. class 3 years ago even told the class that Mohammed told his troops to respect all life, even to not trample upon leaves. Complete BS, the very word "troops" reveals a kind of thuggish hooliganism.
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« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2006, 01:39:04 AM »

where is Vlad Tepes when you need him?

Seriously though.There is NO ONE the Muslims fear in the West. They feared the Impaler.

Wait till the Chinese overtake the West as the Imperial power in the world. Do you think they will take one iota of crap from the Muslims? It almost makes me wish to hasten the day of their surpassing the West, just to see them kick some Muslim butt!

Well it won't be butt-kicking. It will be some serious retaliation (Arab anilhilation) with no concern for condemnation by weak academics and media elite. They will take care of their own and that will be that.
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« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2006, 02:20:46 AM »

I'm sure the Arab Christians here will rejoice in your use of the term "Arab anihilation" even if they and we know what you probably meant.  I may be happy to see Muslims conquered, but I will be sad if Arab culture is destroyed. I tend to like it. Besides, Muslims are people, too. Most of them go to work and live a normal life just like you or me.  They deserve to hear about Christ and are loved by him just as much as me or you.
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« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2006, 02:41:20 AM »

In the dark ages, it was Arabs who preserved civilization. What would we have left of classic learning, such as Plato and Aristotle, if Arabs hadn't preserved it? Where would mathematics be without Euclid? And it's true that there have been Arab Christians from the beginning of the Christian faith.

Peace.
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« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2006, 02:43:04 AM »

Broad-sword use of the word, Arab, duly noted and now apologizing for.

It is easy to forget Christian brethren in Arab lands and that is wrong. I am sorry for that.

There is a world-wide cultural war going on, initiated by radical Islam. Even Russia has to deal with it. Historically Christian lands and cultures (even if they currently are only nominally Christian, like the US) are the targets of radical Islam.

They will bring harm on their moderate Muslim, secular and Christian countrymen. 

Western culture may very well go down in flames. Not by the radical Muslims (although they will claim victory) but by its own weakness, corruption and immorality.

The competing cultures will be that of China vs. Islamic culture.
If radical Islam wants to engage the battle with them, it will awaken a tiger it really doesn't wish to tangle with.

The West has difficulty defending itself, due to its own self-doubt, political correctness and the vulnerability of its economy and open borders to serious retaliation, not to mention dependence on oil. That won't be a problem for China.

If anyone flies a plane into one of their buildings, they will retaliate with thoroughness and not alot of consideration for collateral damage and casualties. They have the population to occupy - not to build democracy, but to secure the oil for themselves. Again, they won't be there to win a kindness contest in world opinion.

So, if radical Islam ever takes on the Chinese, to borrow a song title from Pink Floyd, "Run Like Hell."
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« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2006, 11:11:42 AM »

Timos is correct regarding the track record of Islam with regard to Christians and even its own people.

His post prompted my Vlad Tepes reference. He was Orthodox and sometimes Catholic and a full time heretic. But Vlad the Impaler stopped the Muslim advance at Romania. The West developed technology (gun powder - which ironically, Marco Polo brought back from the Chinese) and then were able to defeat the Muslims at the Gates of Vienna (there is a blog now of that title). The Moors got kicked out of Spain and the Muslim advance was stopped and contained.

Unfortunately they were able to keep Constantinople and Hagia Sophia. They were pushed out but not pushed back far enough.



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« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2006, 01:34:32 PM »

Vlad Tepes was not Orthodox but a pragmatic politician who played both Rome and Constantinople to his advantage, first favoring one, then the other. When he finally became Christian, it was RC.
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« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2006, 01:58:43 PM »

gun powder - which ironically, Marco Polo brought back from the Chinese

Exactly how and when gun powder came to the West is disputed.
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« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2006, 09:29:00 PM »

In the dark ages, it was Arabs who preserved civilization.
You mean the Byzantine civilization that they conquered?

How much more of it would have survived without their invasions?

And how does that excuse their pulling a public spectacle in an airport? 

Would this have happened if they had prayed in a mosque? What would happen if Christians prayed this way in an Islamic country?
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« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2006, 02:17:46 AM »

Islam is probably a thoroughly ethnocentric religion, which could be why Muslims only consider the Koran divinely inspired when in Arabic. Muhammad, rather than founding a new religion, united his people through war under the pretext of religion.
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« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2006, 02:22:35 AM »

I think Islam, at the very core of it, is simply an Arab nationalistic movement. Muhammad, along with all other 7th century pagan Arabs, were stuck between the two great empires: Byzantium and Persia. In order to rally his people up so that he too may be able to rival these empires, Islam was formed - with helps and influences from those religions in said empires. By this influence, he was able to institute a super-religion, one that took on influences from the faiths of al-Kitab - yet surpassing them (from his standpoint of course) in both the profane and the divine.

Just a few thoughts at 10 PM  Tongue.
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« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2006, 02:35:21 AM »

Islam seems to be nothing more than a perversion of Christianity with kosher dietary laws and a thirst for militance.
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« Reply #58 on: November 27, 2006, 03:21:14 AM »

That too!
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« Reply #59 on: November 27, 2006, 03:24:44 AM »

But again, if the practice of Islam within our country poses no threat to our Republic, then Muslims deserve the right to freely worship.
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« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2006, 03:31:01 AM »

Of course. There is no justification within [Orthodox] Christianity to suggest we have the power to limit other peoples' right to practice their religion freely. Christianity is far from, in the Gospel, an earthly-theocratic government. And to stoop down to the tyrannical lows Shari'a exhibits would betray the very "Kingdom of God" our Lord speaks of.
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« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2006, 08:23:25 AM »

But again, if the practice of Islam within our country poses no threat to our Republic, then Muslims deserve the right to freely worship.

The cultural values, ideals, and practices of Islam are a direct threat to the security and well-being of this Republic. This has already been manifestly demonstrated when Mohammedans from an allied country took it upon themselves to attack this Republic for religious and cultural reasons; the attacks against Christianity throughout the history of Islam are too numerous to count. Furthermore, it is not only we who are targeted the Hindu and Buddhist peoples have not fared any better. Consider even in recent years the destruction of Ancient Buddhist monuments in Afghanistan, an atrocity not only against Buddhism but against the human race. Islam is not only a threat to this Republic, it is a threat to civilization, enlightenment, and humanity whereever it is found.
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« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2006, 09:28:41 AM »

But again, if the practice of Islam within our country poses no threat to our Republic, then Muslims deserve the right to freely worship.
Muslims HAVE the right to freely worship in this country. It is becoming increasing difficult to treat you seriously if you keep spouting such utter nonsense.

What no one has the right to do is create a public spectacle within the secure areas of an airport.

Do you understand the difference yet?
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« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2006, 11:08:39 AM »

I cannot believe we are debating the issue of others having the right of freedom of worship!
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« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2006, 11:46:50 AM »

Moderate muslims are not the product of the Islamic religion. They are abberations.

Cornelius Van Til, a Presbytrerian theologian of a generation ago at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia developed "presuppositional" apologetics, a way of doing Christian apologetics that gets at the presuppositions of other belief systems and shows how a person just cannot live out those presuppositions consistently because God has not made us or the universe that way, He has made it and us according to divine revelation in scripture (remember for a moment, that as a Presbyterian, he didn't accept Holy Tradition). Therefore only Christian presuppositions really suppport they way things are and the way we are because they are in tune with God's revelation and how he made us and the universe.

The presuppositions of Islam are militant and nationalsitic (pan-Arab muslim nationalism).
The muslims who are not a threat to our Republic because they believe in democracy, religious freedom, individual rights, etc. are "happily inconsistent" with their religion. If they ever face its presuppositions, they will need to become secular or Christians. They can't consistently remain muslims.

What people in the West don't want to admit, and what Eastern Orthodox people know historically and instinctively, is that muslim radicals are consistent with the presuppositions of their religion. They get it "right" so to speak. That's why they and their religion are a real threat to the West. Political Correctness on this issue will continue to make the West a victim of radical islamic extremes and violence.
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« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2006, 12:25:51 PM »

Regarding the clerics, just as one has no right to yell "fire" in a crowded building, although they have the right to practice their religion in this country, the do NOT have an absolute right to practice it anywhere, anyhow they want so as to infringe on the rights of others and create anxiety in travellers.

If you HAVE to pray at a certain hour, book a flight so as not to need to pray at the airport.

What if they had been in the air? Are the stewards and stewardesses supposed to stop what they are doing so muslim clerics can kneel in the aisles and pray? Is everyone supposed to not go to the bathroom till their prayers are done because they are taking up aisle space?

Of course not!
If their religion allows an exigency for that scenario, it could allow it for being in an airport in the US, waiting for a flight.

They were grandstanding.
It was in-your-face -- either, "we're gonna do this and you'll just have to suck up and deal with it, America."
or, "we'll be stopped and it will be, 'oh, those poor muslims can't practice their faith'" and maybe the ACLU will get involved.
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« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2006, 12:45:45 PM »

I cannot believe we are debating the issue of others having the right of freedom of worship!
We aren't (most of us aren't anyway) as that was never the question in this case. The "clerics" got into trouble for creating a public spectacle inside the secure area of an airport and being confrontational on an aircraft.

If you think they were targeted because of their religion, you try pulling what they did and see what happens.
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« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2006, 12:28:53 PM »

More info comes out: "Muslim religious leaders removed from a Minneapolis flight last week exhibited behavior associated with a security probe by terrorists and were not merely engaged in prayers, according to witnesses, police reports and aviation security officials."
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« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2006, 12:31:06 PM »

And more info comes out (for those of you paying attention): "Flight attendants said they were concerned that the way the imams took seats that were not assigned to them -- two seats in the front row of first class, exit seats in the middle of the plane and two seats in the rear -- resembled the pattern used by September 11 hijackers, giving them control of the exits."

For the record, I've seen people get  ejected from an America West (which operates now as US Airways) flight just for taking a first class seat that wasn't theirs.

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« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2006, 08:43:22 PM »

Trust Matthew to take the bait and switch into liberal do-gooder mode.  We cannot be sure about exactly what happened on that plane.  What we do know is that the action was taken by a private company, and that Muslims are free to 'acknowledge God in public places'.  Frankly I would hope you had better things to do with your time, you only seem to get your knickers in a twist about topics which are either divisive or irrelevant to Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2006, 11:46:49 PM »

Ancient Greek and other classical texts survived patially due to the Arabs. In the middle ages in europe, Catholic Cathedral chapters and monasteries had schools which studied these subjects-although yes, sometimes supressed by various church o civil authority- but still, if you ask any 10 random people-  today in the west vs. Arab for example, most probably, very few of the 10 on either side would've read the Illiad for example, although most would've heard about it (in their own respective lingual titles).

As for the comment about muslim clerics praying in plane aisles- I though it would be funny if say on Olympic Air, a priest and bunch of people, decided to have a Liturgy with the priest using the first-class door as the altar, with icons on either side, and the rest of the plane as the nave- tacky I know. The incense would be unbearable at such an altitude.

Unfortunately they were able to keep Constantinople and Hagia Sophia. They were pushed out but not pushed back far enough.

Speaking of which, Pope Benedict just returned from "Turkey". When in Europe, he condemned Turkey from joining the EU and accidentally hurts Muslim's feelings by quoting a Byzantine emperor from some centuries ago--we'd better be careful from quoting other's opinions from now on in front of Muslims. Then, when he gets to Asia Minor, he's welcomed at a Mass attended by 200 ppl (the smallest attended Papal event ever recorded supposedly), one of which is Patriarch Barthlomew and he suddenly approves Turkey's bid to joining the EU and that Islam is a peaceful religion...I hope it's all just lip service. The news had said that his visit with Bartholomew was closely watched by Turkish officials- I guess they don't want the Patriarch to tell the Pope of what really goes on there. Does anyone know how the bid to get back Agia Sophia's going?
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« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2006, 04:54:00 AM »

I think that's funny about liturgy on a plane at 30,000 feet or whatever they fly at!  Cheesy

Here's the problem, in my opinion with Islam, political correctness and multiculturalism (I know, a pretty sweeping statement and aiming at quite large and disparate targets):

the Roman Pope cannot pray at Hagia Sophia because it might upset muslims (and the liberal media) but muslim clerics dare not be prevented from making a public spactacle of their prayers in an airport (of all places, keeping in mind 9-11).
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« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2006, 07:56:58 PM »

Ancient Greek and other classical texts survived patially due to the Arabs.
Yes, the Moslems did place some value on the treasures that they stole.

Which also proves that they are far removed from the Moslems of modern day, who would have destroyed most of it as being "offensive to Allah."
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« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2006, 06:42:38 AM »

I wish we could have peace with Islam. If we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, then that would also include Muslims.
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« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2006, 12:10:38 PM »

I wish we could have peace with Islam.
You might as well wish that the followers of Islam were peaceful.
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« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2006, 08:08:53 PM »

You might as well wish that the followers of Islam were peaceful.


Every Muslim I've ever known has been.
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« Reply #76 on: December 11, 2006, 08:26:46 PM »

Every Muslim I've ever known has been.

Or rather, they either have pretended they were peaceful, or they weren't devout at all. Why do polls, even by agencies sympathetic to the Muslim community, consistently show overwhelming support among everyday Muslims for such things as violent resistence in Iraq, the destruction of Israel, and the imposition of at least some tenets of sharia (such as criminalizing the "defamation" of Muhammad)?
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« Reply #77 on: December 12, 2006, 12:56:39 AM »

Or rather, they either have pretended they were peaceful, or they weren't devout at all. Why do polls, even by agencies sympathetic to the Muslim community, consistently show overwhelming support among everyday Muslims for such things as violent resistence in Iraq, the destruction of Israel

Iraqi citizens have the right to fight against violations of their national sovereignty. Furthermore, when it comes to Israel, I'm sure you'd also be rather angry, and perhaps even resort to violence, if a whole race of people invaded your land, took your home, and forced you into a ghetto. The Jewish people have no racial superiority, and they lost the land of Israel when they rejected Christ. From an Orthodox Christian perspective, not that of a premillennial dispensationalist, the nation of Israel has no inherent right to exist.

Peace.
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« Reply #78 on: December 12, 2006, 01:05:48 AM »

Iraqi citizens have the right to fight against violations of their national sovereignty. Furthermore, when it comes to Israel, I'm sure you'd also be rather angry, and perhaps even resort to violence, if a whole race of people invaded your land, took your home, and forced you into a ghetto. The Jewish people have no racial superiority, and they lost the land of Israel when they rejected Christ. From an Orthodox Christian perspective, not that of a premillennial dispensationalist, the nation of Israel has no inherent right to exist.

No Orthodox Christian perspective includes blowing yourself up in a marketplace and killing a bunch of random women and children going along their daily business. Notice that I didn't say that Muslims support the transformation of Israel into a more democratic state -- which is what you seem to seek and which would be objectionable -- they support the killing of oneself and civilians to satisfy their peculiar ideas of justice.
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« Reply #79 on: December 12, 2006, 01:12:31 AM »

Notice that I didn't say that Muslims support the transformation of Israel into a more democratic state -- which is what you seem to seek and which would be objectionable

Objectionable to whom and for what reason?

they support the killing of oneself and civilians to satisfy their peculiar ideas of justice.

Suicide bombing appears to be an act of desperation. If they had more sophisticated militaries and weaponry, and a world willing to care about their struggle, I'm not certain that they would resort to suicide bombing.
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« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2006, 06:40:40 AM »

Suicide bombing appears to be an act of desperation. If they had more sophisticated militaries and weaponry, and a world willing to care about their struggle, I'm not certain that they would resort to suicide bombing.

It's not an act of desperation - it's an act that displays resolve and is intended specifically to intimidate the opponent by disrupting the flow of daily life for the civilian.  They do in fact have more sophisticated militaries and weaponry than suicide bombers (altough their combined military forces are not "more sophisticated" than Israel's - there are one 2 or 3 militaries in the world that are) but chose suicide bombings and using their own countrymen as human shields to send a message and play on the emotions of the Industrialized nations.
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« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2006, 06:51:45 AM »

Good point Cleveland. An imam here in Australia was admonished a while ago for expressing sympathy for suicide bombers. In response to the rebuke dished out by politicians and the media, he tried to argue that he was not advocating suicide bombing, but rather considering the alleged reality that these suicide bombers are acting out of desparation; their so-called desparate acts being the alleged product of the alleged psychological pain and suffering caused by the Israelis. As you've astutely noted however, that's complete B.S. Suicide bombing is not an act of desparation, it is a strategically planned and theologically motivated act of terror.
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« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2006, 07:41:51 AM »

As you've astutely noted however, that's complete B.S. Suicide bombing is not an act of desparation, it is a strategically planned and theologically motivated act of terror.
Quote
Pape's Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (2005) controverts many widely held beliefs about suicide terrorism. Based on an analysis of every known case of suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2005 (315 attacks as part of 18 campaigns), he concludes that there is "little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions... . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" (p. 4). "The taproot of suicide terrorism is nationalism," he argues; it is "an extreme strategy for national liberation" (pp. 79-80).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pape#On_suicide_terrorism

This is the article Robert Pape wrote for the New York Times on suicide attacks:
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/11187/printer

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« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2006, 08:50:17 AM »

Vlad Tepes was not Orthodox but a pragmatic politician who played both Rome and Constantinople to his advantage, first favoring one, then the other. When he finally became Christian, it was RC.

He was also far less involved in halting Muslim expansion than was his cousin St. Stephen the Great of Moldova, who wasn't a heretic and who didn't ever convert to the RCC. In fact, Vlad was deposed at one point and replaced by a weak Hungarian puppet then reinstated by Stephen precisely because he needed a staunch ally to the south who would help against the Turks.

You rather overplay the not a Christian card. Nominally, at least, Vlad Tepes was always a Christian. He was raised Orthodox and later courted Rome for political advantage, which never came. He did convert to the RCC, it is true, but to the best of my knowledge died reconciled to the Orthodox church and was buried in an Orthodox monastery. There's also the famous episode of him nailing papal envoys' hats to their heads, which pretty much shows what his attitude towards Rome was later in life. Certainly, he was a politician and never more than nominally Christian, but it's not correct to paint him as an RC convert.

It's certainly not another Vlad that we need, but another Stefan cel Mare. He was devout in his faith, protector and patron of the Church and unified his people, destroying the corruption of the Boyars in the process. As the saying goes, 'He found a nation of clay and left a nation of stone'. A similar figure would be very welcome now (and the countries weakened by decades of communist corruption actually find themselves in rather a similar situation to 15th century Moldova).

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« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2006, 08:56:50 AM »

Suicide bombing appears to be an act of desperation. If they had more sophisticated militaries and weaponry, and a world willing to care about their struggle, I'm not certain that they would resort to suicide bombing.
Then why don't oppressed Christians use it?

By the way, has anyone noticed that the reports of suicide bombings in Israel have dropped in the past couple of years? Saddam Hussein would pay $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers. When his monetary support was cut, the supply of bombers seems to have withered.
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« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2006, 09:02:20 AM »

Then why don't oppressed Christians use it?
Or oppressed Tibetan Buddhists, or oppressed Jews, or oppressed Fijiian Hindus.....
Good question, Boredmeeting.
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« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2006, 09:08:26 AM »

Then why don't oppressed Christians use it?
Quote
    Over the past two years, I have compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 - 315 in all. This includes every episode in which at least one terrorist killed himself or herself while trying to kill others, but excludes attacks authorized by a national government (like those by North Korean agents against South Korea). The data show that there is far less of a connection between suicide terrorism and religious fundamentalism than most people think.

    The leading instigator of suicide attacks is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion. This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27). Even among Muslims, secular groups like the Kurdistan Workers' Party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Al Aksa Martyr Brigades account for more than a third of suicide attacks.

    What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause...
 Three general patterns in the data support these conclusions. First, nearly all suicide terrorist attacks - 301 of the 315 in the period I studied - took place as part of organized political or military campaigns. Second, democracies are uniquely vulnerable to suicide terrorists; America, France, India, Israel, Russia, Sri Lanka and Turkey have been the targets of almost every suicide attack of the past two decades. Third, suicide terrorist campaigns are directed toward a strategic objective: from Lebanon to Israel to Sri Lanka to Kashmir to Chechnya, the sponsors of every campaign - 18 organizations in all - are seeking to establish or maintain political self-determination.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/11187/printer

Suicide attacks aren't limited to Islam. Even the Irish Republican Army utilized suicide attacks.
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« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2006, 09:14:56 AM »

Suicide attacks aren't limited to Islam. Even the Irish Republican Army utilized suicide attacks.
Links to examples, perhaps?

By the way, did you know that many IRA members had strong Marxist ties?
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« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2006, 09:17:57 AM »

Suicide attacks aren't limited to Islam. Even the Irish Republican Army utilized suicide attacks.


Whilst your first sentence is undoubtedly true, I'm not sure about the second. I lived through the mainland bombing campaign of the IRA, my father's barracks were bombed, a fair number of kids at my school had lost parents or other relatives to the IRA, I was in earshot of the bombing of the Royal Marines music school in Deal and a family friend was injured in Manchester. I can't recall a single suicide attack by the IRA. Would you care to provide some evidence for this assertion?

James
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« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2006, 04:07:08 PM »

Would you care to provide some evidence for this assertion?
Quote
In Northern Ireland, in the early 1990s, as part of the Provisional IRA campaign 1969-1997, the IRA used the tactic it called the "proxy bomb" - a sort of involuntary suicide bomb, where a victim was kidnapped and forced to drive a car bomb into its target. In one infamous operation in Derry in 1990, the PIRA chained a Catholic civilian to a car laden with explosives, held his family hostage and forced him to drive to a British Army checkpoint as a "human bomb" where the bomb exploded, killing himself and five soldiers. This practice was stopped due to the revulsion its caused among the Irish nationalist community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack
Quote
A grisly IRA technique used in the early 1990s was the "proxy bomb" -a sort of involuntary suicide bomb, where a victim was kidnapped and forced to drive a car bomb into its target. In one infamous operation in Derry in October 1990, the PIRA chained a Catholic civilian to a car laden with explosives, held his family hostage and forced him to drive to an Army checkpoint as a "human bomb" where the bomb exploded, killing himself and five soldiers. Another "human bomb" killed one soldier the same day, but the driver saved his own life by jumping from the moving car. This practice was stopped due to the revulsion its caused among the nationalist community.
http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=NEWS&template=wiki&text=Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969-1997

If a group of Hindu Marxists is responsible for having the largest number of suicide attacks, then perhaps Islamic fundamentalism isn't the primary reason for suicide bombing. What makes the Palestinian bombers and IRA alike, other than their violent actions, is that their land was taken away from them.

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« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2006, 06:25:11 PM »

Quote from: BoredMeeting
You might as well wish that the followers of Islam were peaceful.

Every Muslim I've ever known has been.

And did you meet them all here in the United States where they are a decided minority?
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« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2006, 06:26:48 PM »

Iraqi citizens have the right to fight against violations of their national sovereignty.

By torturing and killing their fellow countrymen?

Please, don't insult our intelligence!
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« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2006, 06:28:11 PM »

Suicide bombing appears to be an act of desperation.

Still attempting to get that dog to hunt, I see.

How about admitting that it is an act of desperation practiced by Muslims and Marxists?
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« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2006, 02:00:41 AM »

Still attempting to get that dog to hunt, I see.

How about admitting that it is an act of desperation practiced by Muslims and Marxists?
   What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause...
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/11187/printer
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« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2006, 04:43:28 AM »

Matthew,

You can hardly describe the 'proxy bomb' attacks (which I do remember) as suicide bombings. Other than the fact that they relied on a human to guide and die with the device, they are completely different. If it wasn't a tautology, murder bombing would seem a more appropriate term for the tactic you described. And I'd hardly describe republican terrorists as desperate either, so had the IRA used suicide bombing tactics (which you have singularly failed to show) then you'd have a hard time arguing that desperation was the cause. I seriously doubt that desperation is the cause of suicide bombings amongst the Tamil Tigers or Muslims either - it's their ideologies that cause them to choose such a tactic over more conventional guerrilla warfare.

James
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« Reply #95 on: December 13, 2006, 08:05:39 AM »

You can hardly describe the 'proxy bomb' attacks (which I do remember) as suicide bombings.

How many Islamic suicide bombers would you suppose are forced into their lot?

I seriously doubt that desperation is the cause of suicide bombings amongst the Tamil Tigers or Muslims either - it's their ideologies that cause them to choose such a tactic over more conventional guerrilla warfare.

What say you of their common cause, to fight against Western-style democracies that have taken over their homelands?
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« Reply #96 on: December 13, 2006, 08:25:20 AM »

How many Islamic suicide bombers would you suppose are forced into their lot?

Many don't seem forced, but perfectly willing. Haven't you seen examples of the genre of the "martyrdom video", where people who are about to blow themselves up talk about how proud they are of their religious devotion? Some have been posted to YouTube, although they often get taken down pretty quickly.
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« Reply #97 on: December 13, 2006, 08:42:18 AM »

How many Islamic suicide bombers would you suppose are forced into their lot?
Oh, come off it. A few maybe are forced. The majority clearly aren't. They may have been indoctrinated to do so but then the fact that this is even possible tells you something about their ideology doesn't it? Look, I work just down the road from the 7/7 bomb factory and grew up in the area so I know pretty well what the Muslim community here is like. There's absolutely no chance that any of them were forced to blow themselves up in London, and yet they did so. There's also no chance that they were desperate. What could possibly have made them so desperate as to do such a thing having grown up in affluent England?

Quote
What say you of their common cause, to fight against Western-style democracies that have taken over their homelands?
I say that it's more or less incidental. If you were talking about a phenomenon confined to places like the Holy Land and Iraq you'd have a point. But how does that apply to British Muslims from the Indian subcontinent or converts? What homeland do they have that has been taken over? The fact that suicide bombings are found amongst Muslims with no reason to feel desperate or oppressed shows that there is something more to the phenomenon - the ideology of radical Islam.

James
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« Reply #98 on: December 13, 2006, 09:49:02 AM »

   What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland.
Poppycock.

As we see with the sectarian violence in Iraq (which constitue the primary source of current suicide bomb attacks), the primary targets are members of opposing Moslem sects.
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« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2006, 02:19:25 AM »

I want to thank James for sharing about St. Stephen the Great
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« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2006, 02:25:53 AM »

to comment on more recent discussion on this thread. I concur: one has to account for the fact that well-educated, middle class (or higher) muslims are participating in suicide attacks.

Multiculturalism just cannot accept that maybe it's not social structures. Maybe it's bad belief. Maybe someone's religion is bad stuff; maybe it's objectively (not just subjectivey) wrong!
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« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2006, 03:39:15 AM »

Quote
Multiculturalism just cannot accept that maybe it's not social structures. Maybe it's bad belief. Maybe someone's religion is bad stuff; maybe it's objectively (not just subjectivey) wrong!

I don't know if it is that simple.  The Islamic world hasn't gone through their own reformation, renaissance and enlightenment.  When their political situation stabilizes, the radicals begin to fall from power, hopefully the same sort of intellectual transformation that happened in the West will also happen in the Islamic world.  Lest we become too disdainful of the Muslim world, it was only 60 years ago that 12,000,000 people were systematically murdered in the heart of Christian Europe.
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« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2006, 04:08:27 AM »

Quote
The fact that suicide bombings are found amongst Muslims with no reason to feel desperate or oppressed shows that there is something more to the phenomenon - the ideology of radical Islam.

The assignation of Franz Ferdinand is similar to a modern suicide attack, or at least the attackers attempted to kill themselves but proved too incompetent to do so.  There is the case of the Japanese military during WWII.  The killers at Columbine engaged in a suicide attack.  Murder-suicides arn't that uncommon.  Radical Islam certainly exacerbates the problem, but I think there are some deeper roots (and deeper roots than the bleeding heart "opprossed" Palestine propoganda). 
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« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2006, 04:19:21 AM »

The fact that suicide bombings are found amongst Muslims with no reason to feel desperate or oppressed shows that there is something more to the phenomenon - the ideology of radical Islam.
Quote
Over the past two years, I have compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003 - 315 in all. This includes every episode in which at least one terrorist killed himself or herself while trying to kill others, but excludes attacks authorized by a national government (like those by North Korean agents against South Korea). The data show that there is far less of a connection between suicide terrorism and religious fundamentalism than most people think.

The leading instigator of suicide attacks is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion. This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27). Even among Muslims, secular groups like the Kurdistan Workers' Party, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Al Aksa Martyr Brigades account for more than a third of suicide attacks.

    What nearly all suicide terrorist attacks actually have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in seeking aid from abroad, but is rarely the root cause...
 Three general patterns in the data support these conclusions. First, nearly all suicide terrorist attacks - 301 of the 315 in the period I studied - took place as part of organized political or military campaigns. Second, democracies are uniquely vulnerable to suicide terrorists; America, France, India, Israel, Russia, Sri Lanka and Turkey have been the targets of almost every suicide attack of the past two decades. Third, suicide terrorist campaigns are directed toward a strategic objective: from Lebanon to Israel to Sri Lanka to Kashmir to Chechnya, the sponsors of every campaign - 18 organizations in all - are seeking to establish or maintain political self-determination.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/11187/printer

Peace.
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« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2006, 12:04:28 PM »

This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more than Hamas (54) or Islamic Jihad (27).
Right, like we have been saying, Muslims are committing most of these attacks. Even citing only two of the Muslim terrorists groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, we see that they have committed 81 suicide bombings compared to 76 for the Tamil Tigers.

I know you were attempting to prove the opposite point but the facts turned the tables here.
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« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2006, 12:06:47 PM »

The assignation of Franz Ferdinand is similar to a modern suicide attack, or at least the attackers attempted to kill themselves but proved too incompetent to do so.
Actually, they attempted to kill themselves only when it became evident that they were going to be captured since they knew the Austrians would torture them.

This means it was quite dissimilar from a modern suicide attack.
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« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2006, 01:26:33 PM »

Quote
Actually, they attempted to kill themselves only when it became evident that they were going to be captured since they knew the Austrians would torture them.

This means it was quite dissimilar from a modern suicide attack.

It depends on how loosely suicide attack is defined - the members of the black hand faced an extremely high probality of eventual execution by Hapsburg authorities.  Eitherway, I thought they all took their cyanide capsules immediantly upon doing their deed.  Not all Islamic militants engage in strapping a bomb on themselves, others will do machine gun raids on Israeli settlements knowing that they will be shot and killed by Israeli authorities (AFAIK these ones still get their 72 virgins, make martyr tapes, family gets the promised money etc).  But then again why do American criminals engage in this http://www.suicidebycop.com/index.html?  Why did the Columbine shooters go on a murderous spree and then kill themselves?  Radical Islam is not the only explanation for suicide attacks (nor is the "opprossed homeland" bit either).   
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« Reply #107 on: December 15, 2006, 01:10:07 AM »

none of these other groups cited has as its basis a religion which is considered a direct revelation from God that instructs its adherents to kill infidels. It is historical fact that it is a religion of conversion by the sword.

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« Reply #108 on: December 15, 2006, 02:55:43 AM »

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none of these other groups cited has as its basis a religion which is considered a direct revelation from God that instructs its adherents to kill infidels. It is historical fact that it is a religion of conversion by the sword.

Jews and Christians both have scriptures that they believe are direct revelations from God that instruct them to kill.  The difference is that very few Christians and Jews follow these texts literally - although it is an historical fact that Christians have used violence to convert and enforce religious Orthodox (and some posters here claim that the Orthodox Church today should still use force and legislation to protect Orthodoxy).  The point I'm getting at is some Muslims have radical views, but many do not.  Some groups were converted to Islam by means of force, others gladly converted when exposed to Islam via trade routes or the settlement of Sufis.  To ignore these vast diffrences shows a great ignorance of Islam and greatly oversimplifies the matter.  It is oversimplification that I am arguing against. 

For example:
Oct. 2, 2006: Charles Carl Roberts, 32, took 10 girls hostage in an Amish school in Nickel Mines, Pa., killing five of them before killing himself.

Sept. 27, 2006: Duane Morrison, 53, took six girls hostage at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Co., molesting them and holding them for hours before fatally shooting one girl and then himself.

Mar 21, 2005: Jeff Weise, 16, shot to death his grandfather and his grandfather's girlfriend and then went to his high school in Red Lake, Minnesota, where he killed a security guard, a teacher, and five students, and wounded seven others, before killing himself.

Apr. 24, 2003: In Red Lion, Pa., 14-year old James Sheets shot and killed his middle school principal Eugene Segro in a crowded school cafeteria and then killed himself.

April 29, 2002 - 17-year-old Dragoslav Petkovic opened fire with a handgun shortly after noon at his high school in Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina, killing one teacher and wounding another before taking his own life.

Apr. 26, 2002 - 19-year-old Robert Steinhaeuser, who had been expelled from Johann Gutenberg high school in Erfurt, Germany, returned to the school and shot to death 13 teachers, two students and a police officer before killing himself.

Feb. 19, 2002 - A 22-year-old gunman in Munich, Germany, killed his former boss and a foreman at the company that fired him, then went to a high school in a Munich suburb, where he shot the school's headmaster when he was unable to find the teacher he was after. He then shot another teacher in the face and set off homemade bombs before killing himself.

Apr. 20, 1999: Columbine High School students Dylan Klebold, 17, and Eric Harris, 18, went on a shooting rampage, killing 12 of their classmates and one teacher, a Hoosier native, in Littleton, Colo. Klebold and Harris then kill themselves. The massacre was the bloodiest school shooting in U.S. history.

May 21, 1998: Miles Fox,15, died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head in Onalaska, Wash. Earlier in the day, he boarded a high school bus with a gun in hand, ordered his girlfriend off the bus and took her to his home, where he shot himself.

Mar. 13, 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, dressed in black and wearing earmuffs to protect himself from the noise, entered an elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and sprayed 105 bullets into the gym striking 29 people before killing himself. Sixteen five and 6-year-olds and a teacher died.

Jan. 17, 1989: Patrick Purdy, 26, armed with an AK-47 assault rifle, opened fire on a playground at a Stockton, Ca., elementary school. Five children died and 29 children and one teacher were wounded before Purdy killed himself.

May 20, 1988: Laurie Dann, 30, shot six students at a Winnetka, Ill., elementary school, killing one second-grader. She then shot a man in a nearby house before committing suicide.

Still willing to argue that suicide attacks are a Muslim thing?  Or that they even have to be connected to any political/religious movement? 
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« Reply #109 on: December 15, 2006, 06:04:03 AM »

Many compare the two faiths and state that since Christianity had a bloody history, it is no surprise that Islam should go through their bloody stage. I don't think you can adequatly compare the Christian history and Muslim history that easy however. It's not something to do with numbers, but with the source. For a Christian to kill becuase religious convictions, he would have to clearly deviate from the source of his religious knowledge (The Bible, which although not considered the only source in our faith, it is for the majority of others). On the other hand, if a Muslim was to not kill out of religious belief, he would also have to deviate from his source (the Quran). Christianity became overall more civil due to an increased knowledge of the Bible, while for Islam to become more civil, it seems that there must be decreased knowledge of the Quran, or at least an extreme rewriting of it. Take a look at the U.S., can we all agree that secularism is rampant here and the majority of today's generation don't have adequate knowledge of their own religious text, be it the Quran or the Bible? So what's the result? More deviant Christians, and more civil and loving Muslims.

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« Reply #110 on: December 15, 2006, 09:42:40 AM »

Still willing to argue that suicide attacks are a Muslim thing?
I stand by the facts which show that the majority of suicide bombings being committed in the world today are committed by Moslems.
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« Reply #111 on: December 15, 2006, 12:21:30 PM »

For example:
blah blah

Still willing to argue that suicide attacks are a Muslim thing?  Or that they even have to be connected to any political/religious movement? 

I think we are referring to bombings....and religiously motiveated ones and not isolated examples of people with loose screws.
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« Reply #112 on: December 15, 2006, 02:28:48 PM »

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I don't think you can adequatly compare the Christian history and Muslim history that easy however. It's not something to do with numbers, but with the source. For a Christian to kill becuase religious convictions, he would have to clearly deviate from the source of his religious knowledge (The Bible, which although not considered the only source in our faith, it is for the majority of others).

That only works if you are a Protestant who believes in Sola Scriptura.  For other Christians tradition is equally important - tradition including the veneration of people like Justinian who had his methods of dealing with those pesky "monophysites."  Even on such issues as the Nazi Holocaust, many Christian clerics either condoned it or took parth themselves in (while, of course, many others condemned it and suffered under it).  If you were to take events like those, rip them from context, demonstrate that such people are actually venerated as saints, rip a few quotes from the Old Testament out of context - you could establish that Christianity is an incredibly bloodly and merciless religion in the same manner that has taken some events from Islamic history and some Qu'ranic and Hadith quotes to establish that Islam is a violent and bloody religion. 

Quote
Christianity became overall more civil due to an increased knowledge of the Bible, while for Islam to become more civil, it seems that there must be decreased knowledge of the Quran, or at least an extreme rewriting of it.

The vast majority of our freedoms in the West come from the enlightenment, not Christianity.  In fact many of our liberities are contrary to Christianity - such as free access to abortion and marriages/civil unions for homosexuals.  Many monarchs were able fight this process of liberalization by invoking their Christian divine right to rule.  That is why I have argued before that when Islamic societies go through similar social changes as the West, it is very probable that mainstream Islam will undergo the same transformation that mainstream Christianity has.

Quote
I think we are referring to bombings....and religiously motiveated ones and not isolated examples of people with loose screws.

What I have shown is that people from multiple societies engage in attacks where their own death is the inevitable outcome and for a variety of motivations.  Some are highly organized like the Imperial Japanese military or independent like the aboce mentioned school shootings.  The evidence shows that every society has people with the psychological/moral defect that incites them to kill others and then take their own life.   
 
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« Reply #113 on: December 15, 2006, 02:39:24 PM »

The evidence shows that every society has people with the psychological/moral defect that incites them to kill others and then take their own life. 
Equating mental illness with a violent religion unfortunately embraced by millions not only strains the limits of credibility, it crosses well into utter nonsense.

None of the other cases you cited resulted in the murderer being praised by his fellow countrymen as is the custom in modern Moslem societies.
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« Reply #114 on: December 15, 2006, 02:40:45 PM »

Curious how this thread has meandered from first proving that the six imams were ejected from the aircraft for good cause to some attempting to excuse mass murder.
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« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2006, 03:18:58 PM »

All psychologically unstable people may not be Moslems, but that doesn't mean that all Moslems are not psychologically unstable people. All that you have demonstrated is that the Cancer called Islam is not the world's ONLY problem; however, the fact still remains it is a problem and that it is the Greatest Problem facing the world today.

The vast majority of our freedoms in the West come from the enlightenment, not Christianity.  In fact many of our liberities are contrary to Christianity - such as free access to abortion and marriages/civil unions for homosexuals.  Many monarchs were able fight this process of liberalization by invoking their Christian divine right to rule.  That is why I have argued before that when Islamic societies go through similar social changes as the West, it is very probable that mainstream Islam will undergo the same transformation that mainstream Christianity has.

This would probably be true if we waited long enough, but frankly I dont think we have the time to wait for Islam to become enlightened on its own...the time has come, either embrace the ideals of the enlightenment immediately or we will be forced to annihilate Islam in defence of our culture and society.
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« Reply #116 on: December 15, 2006, 03:35:14 PM »

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All psychologically unstable people may not be Moslems, but all Moslems are psychologically unstable people. All that you have demonstrated is that the Cancer called Islam is not the world's ONLY problem; however, the fact still remains it is a problem and that it is the Greatest Problem facing the world today.

In the past you have even admitted that the secularization of Muslim societies in the same manner as has happened to religion in the West would accomplish the goal of elimating radical Islam as a threat.  I think we agree on this issue (although actual agreement is no reason to cease a debate, right?). 

My complaint is don't judge all of Islamic history as a single entitity.  Rather than condemn all of Islamic history, pick out the positive elements and rehabilitate them (such as Ibn Arabi or the Mutazilites) and condemn Wahabbism.   
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« Reply #117 on: December 15, 2006, 04:22:08 PM »

In the past you have even admitted that the secularization of Muslim societies in the same manner as has happened to religion in the West would accomplish the goal of elimating radical Islam as a threat. 
But is there any evidence of that happening anywhere in the Moslem world?  NO! Take a look at how the Pope's life was threatened if he prayer in Hagia Sophia and the refusal of the Turkish government to allow the Orthodox Christian seminary reopen. Turkey was often cited as being a "moderate" Moslem nation and it is clear that even they are becoming more radical almost daily.
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« Reply #118 on: December 15, 2006, 05:25:14 PM »

In the past you have even admitted that the secularization of Muslim societies in the same manner as has happened to religion in the West would accomplish the goal of elimating radical Islam as a threat.  I think we agree on this issue.

The problem is that, off the top of my head, I can think of one, and only one, Islamic country that actually has the potential of actualizing this: Kuwait; and they have a very long way to go, they may have made many of the necessary political changes, but non-secularized Islam still has a fairly strong hold over large portions of the population. Secularization is certainly the solution to the Islamic Problem; however, I don't see most the Islamic world embracing the ideals of secularism and enlightenment in the immediate future...can we really afford to wait centuries while their societies evolve? Kuwait may only be 100 years behind us, a 100 years that may be shortened because of our cultural influence...but Saudi Arabian culture 500+ years behind the west.


Quote
(although actual agreement is no reason to cease a debate, right?). 

Now I wont debate that...or will I? Wink

Quote
My complaint is don't judge all of Islamic history as a single entitity.  Rather than condemn all of Islamic history, pick out the positive elements and rehabilitate them (such as Ibn Arabi or the Mutazilites) and condemn Wahabbism.   

And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?
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« Reply #119 on: December 15, 2006, 05:46:55 PM »

And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?
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« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2006, 06:03:21 PM »

There is only one man who can achieve this:

Sung to the tune of Horst Wessel Lied no doubt? (Yes, I do know my Nazi propaganda Wink)

But you are right in large part, economic expansion and globalization can do much to turn many countries towards enlightened western culture. However, given the scope of the Islamic problem, it cannot be solved by econonic means alone in any timely manner, in a few states perhaps, but not through most the Islamic world. And as long as radical clerics are warning them against the hedonistic western infidels our propaganda and globalization will have an effect far below their potential. Much like Japan in the 1940's, the people may be willing to embrace our values, but we must first neutralize the negative influences on these peoples.
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« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2006, 07:42:45 PM »

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Turkey was often cited as being a "moderate" Moslem nation and it is clear that even they are becoming more radical almost daily.

Most of the problems going on in Turkey are due to nationalism hence the miserable plight for ethnic minorities that are Muslims.  A large portion of the conflicts are simply the growing pains of a militantly secular regime that is only slowly integrating with the rest of the world.  Hopefully in the process of EU integration most of these problems can be dealt with - that Turkey budged even a milimeter on opening a single port to Cyprus is a start.  As the Greeks say σιγά, σιγά. 

Quote
The problem is that, off the top of my head, I can think of one, and only one, Islamic country that actually has the potential of actualizing this: Kuwait; and they have a very long way to go, they may have made many of the necessary political changes, but non-secularized Islam still has a fairly strong hold over large portions of the population. Secularization is certainly the solution to the Islamic Problem; however, I don't see most the Islamic world embracing the ideals of secularism and enlightenment in the immediate future...can we really afford to wait centuries while their societies evolve?

Realisticly speaking, we don't have any other choice but to wait.  As it is America hardly has the will rebuilt Iraq and Afghanistan - and even there we're letting the Islamists take over.  The only strategy that seems viable for the time being is a mixture of diplomacy, buying our enemies off, small military engagements and token measures to promote our agenda abroad. 

Quote
And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?

There is no rehabilitating THAT monster.  The Wahhabists need to be excised.  The United States and other Western nations need to prohibit Saudi Arabia from funding Mosques in our countries.  Everything that can be done to stop Saudi Arabia's funding and then radicallizing previously docile Muslims around the world needs to be employed.  This is an interesting group FWIW http://www.islamicpluralism.org/wahhabiwatch/ww2006.htm

Things like academic exchanges in the liberal arts - giving sholarships to study the humanities in the West to Muslims from abroad.  Rather than promoting an all out anti-Muslim campaign, focus instead on promoting the afore mentioned positive periods and persons of Islam -liberally giving out grants for research and publication on them.  A good example of this is to look at similar programs aimed at European integration of the former Eastern Bloc - apply what has been successful, discard what hasn't and multiply the effort an hundred fold because the stakes are much higher.  Of course helping to foster sustainable and stable governments and economies is the sine qua non of all of this.  This won't work overnight, and perhaps not even in a generation, but it is better than doing nothing.
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« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2006, 07:53:11 PM »

Things like academic exchanges in the liberal arts - giving sholarships to study the humanities in the West to Muslims from abroad.  Rather than promoting an all out anti-Muslim campaign, focus instead on promoting the afore mentioned positive periods and persons of Islam -liberally giving out grants for research and publication on them.  A good example of this is to look at similar programs aimed at European integration of the former Eastern Bloc - apply what has been successful, discard what hasn't and multiply the effort an hundred fold because the stakes are much higher.  Of course helping to foster sustainable and stable governments and economies is the sine qua non of all of this.  This won't work overnight, and perhaps not even in a generation, but it is better than doing nothing.

It would certainly be better than doing nothing, and would be an improvement from what we are doing right now. Unfortunately, Saudi Arabia is a thorn in the side of any plan to enlighten the Islamic world. The West made a big mistake in the early 90's in regard to our Middle East policy. We should have done more to befriend Iraq, had we done so we could have protected Kuwait and neutralized Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Revolution in Iran...all for the cost of a few arms shipments.
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« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2006, 09:00:10 PM »

...hence the miserable plight for ethnic minorities that are Muslims.
Yes because the Christian minorities are thriving otherwise... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2006, 09:01:48 PM »

And how, exactly, do you recommend we rehabilitate the Wahhabists?
Dirt nap, no doubt about it. It's the only way to be sure.
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« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2006, 11:33:11 PM »

Dirt nap, no doubt about it. It's the only way to be sure.

WOW...do we actually agree for once??? That only happens once in a blue moon Wink
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« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2006, 09:30:04 PM »

What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.
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« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2006, 10:23:31 PM »

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What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.

Sufis?  You do realize that there a plethora of Sufi orders and great diversity between them?  There have historically been some very violent Sufis and also very peaceful ones.
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« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2006, 02:21:15 PM »

What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.
Aren't the Sufis quite active in the sectarian violence currently occuring in Iraq?
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« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2006, 02:28:09 PM »

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Aren't the Sufis quite active in the sectarian violence currently occuring in Iraq?

No.  That is a Shia/Sunni conflict. 
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« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2006, 06:06:12 PM »

No.  That is a Shia/Sunni conflict. 
I stand corrected.

Then Sufis have nothing to do with Wahhabists, I assume?
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« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2006, 06:24:50 PM »

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Then Sufis have nothing to do with Wahhabists, I assume?

The Wahhabists are extremely anti-Sufi.  When they took power in Saudi Arabia they closed and destroyed all the Sufi shrines. 
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« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2006, 06:51:34 PM »

The Wahhabists are extremely anti-Sufi.  When they took power in Saudi Arabia they closed and destroyed all the Sufi shrines. 

the Wahhabists even put a parking lot on top of Mohammad's alleged house, right?
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« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2006, 07:11:06 PM »

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the Wahhabists even put a parking lot on top of Mohammad's alleged house, right?

Yeah... that was classy of them.
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« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2006, 07:38:27 PM »

What about Sufi Muslims? I don't know of any Sufis who are involved with Islamo-fascism or suicide bombing.

The spiritual leader of the Chechen uprising is a Sufi and quite violent.
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