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Author Topic: Is it a crime for Muslim clerics to acknowledge God in public places?  (Read 13466 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: November 22, 2006, 12:59:24 AM »

U.S. Muslims outraged after imams kicked off plane
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061121/ts_nm/religion_imams_dc

If these allegations are true, they are rather discomforting. Freedom of religion isn't an exclusive right of white Christians.

Peace. 
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 08:49:22 AM »

U.S. Muslims outraged after imams kicked off plane
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061121/ts_nm/religion_imams_dc

If these allegations are true, they are rather discomforting. Freedom of religion isn't an exclusive right of white Christians.

Peace. 

If I had my choice, I would make it a crime. Of course, this is not an issue of law or freedom of religion...they were denied service by a private company, not by a government entity. The company acted in the manner that they believed best served their customers as a whole.
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 05:47:25 PM »

From the looks of it on TV none of these "imams" were wearing clerical garb so how were the other passengers to know they were clergy.  And all Muslims don't stop and pray five times a day wherever they are either.  Watching Iraqi detainees lining up in formations to pray inside the prisons looked like they were fervent believers but when I asked individuals if they prayed at home many replied no, thay they had only started praying in detention and sometimes under peer pressure.  Seems like such public praying under these circumstances is more like a public demonstration!  Like public Rosaries in some European cities like Munich.  Sorry, but it doesn't work both ways in Muslim lands, Christians can't publicly pray any more and in Saudi Arabia could get arrested.
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 08:19:18 PM »

Good point berg!
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 08:54:31 PM »

When Muslims are deprived the right to practice their faith, how soon will the Christians and Jews be next?  This is still America.... right?

Peace.
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 09:22:33 PM »

When Muslims are deprived the right to practice their faith, how soon will the Christians and Jews be next?  This is still America.... right?

Peace.

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 11:01:09 PM »

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.

Here Here! *Bangs hand on table*


Here's how I see it. If the moderate Islamics are so numerous and make up 95% of the Muslim population, why are they afraid to speak out? If they're so numerous and peaceful, why haven't they done anything?

I just read a recent news article in the NY Times. 25% of Muslims interviews out of 10,000 said they would not tell the government if they knew of a terror plot. 15% more said they weren't sure. So, we can't trust 40% of Muslims in our country anymore, it seems.   (By the way, this survey was done in 3-4 different papers around the country. So it wasn't skewed)

They don't have to pray in public. They can pray in their heads if they really need to. It disgusts me to see this show-off-y type of public prayer.
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 11:25:52 PM »

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.

   <bangs head against wall>  That comment has the smell of the 16th century not of today. That is terrible!
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2006, 04:23:11 AM »

If that's the price we must pay to eradicate Islam...so be it.

Do you care more about eradicating Islam than the principles of our founding fathers and your own right to worship?
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 04:36:52 AM »

Do you care more about eradicating Islam than the principles of our founding fathers and your own right to worship?

Don't know about GiC but for me I won't take the bait by this obvious set- up as the media has. Come on, folks, these "Clerics" meant to provoke a scene. It's part of their agenda and we're following their script. Don't buy it. Toss their butts off the plane (at any altitude?)
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 05:31:18 AM »

This is still America.... right?
Wrong.
This is actually cyberspace.
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 05:52:56 AM »

Wrong.
This is actually cyberspace.


Being an Australian, I'm certain you still understand what the phrase "This is still America" means given the context of this thread.
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2006, 07:00:03 AM »

Being an Australian, I'm certain you still understand what the phrase "This is still America" means given the context of this thread.

Huh Now you're just messing with my head...
....how does being Australian help me understand an American phrase?
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2006, 09:05:15 AM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,


They don't have to pray in public. They can pray in their heads if they really need to. It disgusts me to see this show-off-y type of public prayer.

Along these same lines:

Quote from: Matthew 6:5, 6
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.  But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 02:08:39 PM »

Don't know about GiC but for me I won't take the bait by this obvious set- up as the media has. Come on, folks, these "Clerics" meant to provoke a scene. It's part of their agenda and we're following their script. Don't buy it. Toss their butts off the plane (at any altitude?)

I agree -- if they really were terrorists intent on doing something serious they would do whatever they could to remain UNNOTICED, not cause a scene to get kicked off a plane.
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 05:18:16 PM »

Maybe the Muslims in the US and Western Europe should follow the example of the Christians and have a "vernacular" movement and pray in English, etc.   Not praying in Arabic would go a long way to better relations.
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2006, 03:19:31 PM »

Do you care more about eradicating Islam than the principles of our founding fathers and your own right to worship?

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons. Who cares about their principles? I'd rather look to the acts of righteous Christian rulers, who recognized no such concept as "freedom of religion".
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 04:45:35 PM »

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons. Who cares about their principles? I'd rather look to the acts of righteous Christian rulers, who recognized no such concept as "freedom of religion".

 and the many who died because of the decisions of those "righteous Christian rulers"  I personally am glad I do not live in a theocracy or under a monarch protecting one particular Faith to the persecution of others. Anyone who knows  history will never  idealize any Tsar or Monarch.
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2006, 04:57:41 PM »

When Muslims are deprived the right to practice their faith, how soon will the Christians and Jews be next?  This is still America.... right?
No one is stopping them from practicing their faith. Can they no freely go to any mosque and pray all they want?

Of course not! So much for that prattle.

Try going to Saudi Arabia and do what they did and you will learn the difference!

Or do you think that you could go to any airport in the US and put on any sort of display you wanted and not suffer some consequences? 
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 05:02:19 PM »

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons.
While some of the Founding Fathers were deists, virtually all of them acknowledged some sort of Christian affiliation.
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2006, 05:04:24 PM »

I agree -- if they really were terrorists intent on doing something serious they would do whatever they could to remain UNNOTICED, not cause a scene to get kicked off a plane.
Among the various security specialists that I work with, it appears that the Imams were testing the security responses of the airline and of TSA. This is not the first such incident since 9/11.
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2006, 05:07:50 PM »

Anyone who knows  history will never  idealize any Tsar or Monarch.

The Church has glorified many rulers for protecting Christendom, which often involved ensuring that no other faiths were practised. Would you say that the Church "doesn't know history"? While not infallible, hagiographies and the Church's decisions to glorify her saints are not really up for question.

While some of the Founding Fathers were deists, virtually all of them acknowledged some sort of Christian affiliation.

Sure, plenty gave lip-serve to (generally Protestant) Christian thought. But how many were Orthodox? None? So why should we be looking to them for principles of governance when the Church already has plenty of fine role models for rulers like St Vladimir, St Stephen the Great of Romania, St Constantine and his saintly mother, St Justianian, and so forth?
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« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2006, 06:53:33 PM »

Saying that because Saints in the past did x y and z when speaking about secular things is like saying that we should wear togas because that's what some Roman saints wore, or churches should not have electricity because none did before 1900.  Being a traditionalist Orthodox, I certainly do not subscribe to modernism, and think "freedom of religion" can be taken too far, but find it to be a condition which has ensured the possibility of the Church's success in America in recent decades.  In Roman times, the rulers allowed Zoroastrian fire temples, mosques, and Latin churches to be constructed in the city in order to get quid pro quo arrangements for Orthodox living in other areas. I think this is a good example to follow--there is no innate humanistic right to have freedom of religion, but it is good for the Church to support it because of the "return on investment."

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« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2006, 07:11:39 PM »

Sure, plenty gave lip-serve to (generally Protestant) Christian thought. But how many were Orthodox? None? So why should we be looking to them for principles of governance when the Church already has plenty of fine role models for rulers like St Vladimir, St Stephen the Great of Romania, St Constantine and his saintly mother, St Justianian, and so forth?
Because the results of their governance has given us a nation such that virtually everyone who is born within its borders would never choose any other place to live.

Perchance, are you planning to leave the United States in order to live somewhere else? Yes or no?
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« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2006, 07:26:50 PM »

Because the results of their governance has given us a nation such that virtually everyone who is born within its borders would never choose any other place to live.

Perchance, are you planning to leave the United States in order to live somewhere else? Yes or no?

Though I hold an American passport, I've spent most of my adult life abroad. After high school I served in the U.S. Navy, then immediately left for Europe. Unfortunately, the board is still slightly broken, otherwise you'd be able to see that I currently divide my time between the Church of Finland and the Romanian Orthodox Church. I'm very happy in the latter country, as are most of the people I meet--those expressing desire to visit the U.S. only want to make a good amount of money real fast and come back to Cluj, not subscribe to American civic values. And the traditionalist Orthodox I know don't even want to visit the U.S. because of the same issues with secularism I brought up above.

And the sheer amount of Americans living abroad makes it ridiculous to claim that "virtually all" Americans want to stay there. My family envies my living abroad, and some are considering a move back to Germany where one part is originally from. Though it may be for various reasons, whether political protest, business opportunities, or just getting tired of speaking English all the time (how it was for me), I think many, many Americans would move abroad if they only had the opportunity.
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« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2006, 08:50:55 PM »

I would have thought that the societal concessions that Romania was required to make to conform to the EU constitution would make the country a little less appealing in that regard.
And the sheer amount of Americans living abroad makes it ridiculous to claim that "virtually all" Americans want to stay there.
What percentage of the American civilian population is living abroad? 1%? Perhaps 2%? My understanding of the situation supports my statement that "virtually all Americans" are within our borders. Of course, I'd be willing to look at evidence to the contrary
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« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2006, 09:31:40 PM »

The Church has glorified many rulers for protecting Christendom, which often involved ensuring that no other faiths were practised. Would you say that the Church "doesn't know history"? While not infallible, hagiographies and the Church's decisions to glorify her saints are not really up for question.


 Not disputing that but we can and should speak out against the crimes and mistakes of those rulers and above all be thankful to live in a nation where toleration of different religious faiths has meant that we Orthodox can practice our Faith without persecution. 
   I can respect the Church's decision to honor Nicholas II without admiring him as a ruler.
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« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2006, 11:49:25 PM »

....how does being Australian help me understand an American phrase?

Regardless of nationality, you should be able to understand the principles on which our nation was built.
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« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2006, 11:51:44 PM »

I'm certainly not a jingoist and have enjoyed my travels in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, and India, but I am pretty happy to live here in the USA--at least people don't think I am crazy for going to Church most of the time and understand what it means to "convert" to Orthodoxy--the people in Europe I met generally thought that I was a weirdo since I believed in God and went to church, and everyone who knew I went to the Orthodox Church assumed I was Russian and could not understand that not all Orthodox are Russian and that people might actually want to convert to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2006, 02:15:28 AM »

Regardless of nationality, you should be able to understand the principles on which our nation was built.

Ummm, Why should he? "Regardless of Nationality" people should know about US history and structure? In speaking to George or a number of other posters here it is not "our nation" for (speaking for oneself) "my nation" because they do not live in the US, nor are citizens, they live in other countries.  It is often safer to not assume that other people know the same things as oneself.  Do you, regardless of you being of US nationality, understand the principals on which Australia was built or Japan or any other country automatically?  Do you know some real information about the history and developement of Australia, or Slovakia or Myanmar or any other country besides the US? 

Matthew, I'm *not* trying to give you a hard time.  But you have in the past written posts that Americans should know about EO/OO, and now that people in other countries should know about American principals just to give a couple of examples of this pattern.  Why should they? They have their own lives, their own interests and their own concerns. 

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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2006, 02:21:17 AM »

Sure, plenty gave lip-serve to (generally Protestant) Christian thought.

Oh?  How much have you read of the practices and faith of the "founding fathers"?

Quote
But how many were Orthodox? None?

How could any of them have been EO when as far as I've read there was no EO presence in the colonies at that time.  Being EO does not guarantee the abilty to rule wisely, I don't think, and not being EO does not preclude the abilty to govern with ethics and justice.

Quote
So why should we be looking to them for principles of governance when the Church already has plenty of fine role models for rulers like St Vladimir, St Stephen the Great of Romania, St Constantine and his saintly mother, St Justianian, and so forth?

Maybe without their principles of governance there would be little or no opportunity for a person to become EO in this country today?

Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2006, 02:23:41 AM »

Not disputing that but we can and should speak out against the crimes and mistakes of those rulers and above all be thankful to live in a nation where toleration of different religious faiths has meant that we Orthodox can practice our Faith without persecution. 
   I can respect the Church's decision to honor Nicholas II without admiring him as a ruler.

Here, here!

Thank you for saying what I believe I (as not EO/OO) cannot say here, without giving the impression that I am "attacking".

Ebor
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« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2006, 02:27:34 AM »

America was built on universal principles; the light to life, liberty and the puersuit of happiness, the dignity of the individual, the necessity of religious liberty, etc.
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« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2006, 02:35:57 AM »

*I* think that those are excellent principals.  But how can you call them "universal"? What is your basis for using that term? 

They were new ideas.  What governments had been set up along those lines before? What countries had rights to the "pursuit of happiness" or to liberty? (I recognize your phrasing as that of the "Declaration of Independence"  I assure you.  Yes, Jefferson wrote that "We hold these truths to be self-evident.."  But much of the world did not hold them so or even thing about such rights at all?)   How much European (let along World) history and political structure have you read? Have you read Locke?  or in-depth writings from Jefferson or other figures? 

Just because a person likes something does not make it "Universal".

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« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2006, 02:52:06 AM »

*I* think that those are excellent principals.  But how can you call them "universal"? What is your basis for using that term? 

Those Enlightenment philosophers who maintained belief in God asserted that these principles are God's thumbprint within us, that they are the natural law that we instinctively know government and civil society must follow.
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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2006, 08:24:17 AM »

America was built on universal principles; the light to life, liberty and the puersuit of happiness, the dignity of the individual, the necessity of religious liberty, etc.
None of which are acknowledged by the religion of Islam.
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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2006, 06:09:34 PM »

We should take the moral highground then, and allow Muslims to be free in our country.

Peace.
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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2006, 06:21:53 PM »

We should take the moral highground then, and allow Muslims to be free in our country.

Peace.

Why?
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« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2006, 06:39:27 PM »

Why? Because that's what the framers of our Constitution would have wanted.
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« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2006, 07:38:36 PM »

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of Deists and Freemasons. Who cares about their principles? I'd rather look to the acts of righteous Christian rulers, who recognized no such concept as "freedom of religion".

Well, um, actually that rather begs the question. But it appears that the truth was that very few of the FFs were masons-- maybe eight in the Cont. Congress, about twice that many in the Constitutional Convention, which was over twice as large-- and not all that many were deists. They were not overwhelming religious, but they spread pretty evenly across the religious affliliation of the time. Of course, most of those groups had experience being the disestablished church-- they couldn't all be Episcopalians, for all the good that did the latter.
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« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2006, 07:42:23 PM »

Why? Because that's what the framers of our Constitution would have wanted.

You sure about that? Originally the first amendment only applied to the federal government, not the states. At issue was not individual liberty, rather at issue was states rights. This did not change until the 14th amendment.
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« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2006, 09:16:41 PM »

You sure about that? Originally the first amendment only applied to the federal government, not the states. At issue was not individual liberty, rather at issue was states rights. This did not change until the 14th amendment.

Perhaps, but since many states already had established such rights by that point, it was pretty much moot until Brigham YoungUtah came along and forced the issue.
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« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2006, 09:26:10 PM »

Perhaps, but since many states already had established such rights by that point, it was pretty much moot until Brigham YoungUtah came along and forced the issue.

Of course, the mormons were also driven out of the east by people who, understandably, had little tolerance for their cult. I doubt that practicing mohammedans would have been much better received.
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« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2006, 11:16:55 PM »

If the practice of Islam within our country posed a true threat to our civil liberties, I believe that it would call for suppression by the government. But every Muslim I've ever met has been rather "moderate," and I don't see any American Muslim cleric who calls for an Islamic theocracy in our country.

Peace.
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« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2006, 11:38:51 PM »

If the practice of Islam within our country posed a true threat to our civil liberties, I believe that it would call for suppression by the government. But every Muslim I've ever met has been rather "moderate," and I don't see any American Muslim cleric who calls for an Islamic theocracy in our country.

The mere existance of Islam is a threat to the civil liberties of all human beings. Did you know that a full 80% of the mosques in this country are controlled by the Wahhabis? If that isn't a radical Islamic presence I dont know what would be. I dont know about your personal experience with mohammedans, but the fact of the matter is that the Islamisists in this country have failed to distance themselves from and condemn their middle eastern counterparts and thus should be regarded as complicit in the crimes of their middle eastern brethren. Islam is a plague and if we dont completely and utterly destroy it, it will destory us.
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