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Author Topic: Aramaic Primacy [i]Before[/i] George Lamsa  (Read 6791 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jakub
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« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2006, 12:41:22 PM »

I do enjoy watching these topic's drift into...numbness...there are a few here fishing in the forum...

I don't care much for the bait...

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« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2006, 11:35:23 PM »

Well, gee whiz there...this is way too intelligent for this good ole boy like me to fathom...why wouldn't they use the Greek text? Lemme' think ...maybe they couldn't read/understand Greek which goes a long way to explaining why they aren't in the Church to start with...

You avoided the question, my friend. Red herrings are rather bothersome. Why would a Syriac-speaking people read a Greek text? That's like asking why the Greek Church preferred the Septuagint over the original Hebrew.

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Dr. Westcott says also, "This version was universally received by the different sects into which the Syrian Church was divided [after] the fourth century, and so has continued current even to the present time. All the Syrian Christians whether belonging to the Nestorian, Jacobite, or Roman communion, conspire to hold the Peshito AUTHORITATIVE, and to use it in their public services.....The Peshito became in the East the fixed and unalterable RULE OF SCRIPTURE." (pg. 239). "The respect in which the Peshito was held, was further shown by the fact that it was taken as the basis of other versions in the East. An Arabic and a Persian version were made from it." (pg. 240).
Dr. Westcott has linked the Peshito with the Latin Vulgate in a passage which, if freed from reference to the Latin version, to avoid any discussion respecting it, says of the Peshito, "Its voice is one to which we cannot refuse to listen. It gives the testimony of Churches, and not of individuals. It is sanctioned by public use, and not only supported by private criticism. Combined with the original Greek [and the Old Latin], it represents the New Testament Scriptures as they were read throughout the whole of Christendom towards THE CLOSE OF THE SECOND CENTURY.....It furnishes a proof of THE AUTHORITY of the books which it contains, widespread, continuous, reaching to the utmost verge of our historic records. Its real weight is even greater than this; for when history first speaks of it, it speaks as of that which was recognised as a heritage from an earlier period, which cannot have been long after the days of the Apostles." (pg. 263).
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/books/Norton.htm


Again, if the Peshitta were made after the various schisms between Syriac Christians, it would have not been universally accepted among Syriac-speaking Christians.

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 11:46:06 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2006, 11:41:45 PM »

No fish here...you missed this conversation.
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« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2006, 02:28:02 AM »

But would that be the case? The King James Bible was translated in England at a particular time and setting and after other Churches had broken from Rome, such as the Lutherans and others.  Yet, for some time, the KJV was the major English translation.   If a work is a good one it is possible for many groups to use it.

Just a thought that crossed my mind.

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« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2006, 02:44:29 AM »

But would that be the case? The King James Bible was translated in England at a particular time and setting and after other Churches had broken from Rome, such as the Lutherans and others.  Yet, for some time, the KJV was the major English translation.   If a work is a good one it is possible for many groups to use it.
Quote
The Peshitta can absolutely be dated to the fourth century or earlier. This is implied by the oldest manuscripts (since several are believed to date from the fifth century). Burkitt also points out that it is used by all branches of the Syriac church (which were well and truly sundered by the fifth century -- eventually they even came to develop different versions of the script, so that one can tell by the writing style which Syriac church used a particular manuscript), which implies (though it does not quite prove) that the version was in use before the date of the schism.
The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism
http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/Versions.html#Syriac

You may be correct, but there should have been a record of initial protest if that were the case. When the KJV was first printed, there was considerable protest from Roman Catholics. On the other hand, the Peshitta appears to have been accepted from its very creation.

Peace.
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« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2006, 04:28:17 AM »

To which OO Church do the Monophysites, Maronites or Nestorians belong? Because that is who Αριστοκλής is talking about in response to M777's question..

The terms "Nestorian" and "Monophysite" have been used for the sake of convenience. The Assyrian Church of the East isn't "Nestorian," and neither is Syriac Orthodox Church "Monophysite," but these two groups historically would have made these allegations against each other. The Syriac Orthodox Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox communion, while the Assyrian Church of the East became separated from us long ago.

If the legend of Thaddeus' missioning to the Syrians is true, then the first New Testament we ever received was in Syriac or Aramaic. On the other hand, if the Peshitta is a Syriac translation of the Greek, then it is the earliest translation of the New Testament. With the Gospel's spread across the known world, translating the Scriptures into the vernacular became essential. It's rather arrogant to assume that every converted people should have used the Greek as their common text.

The Peshitta is considered inspired and authoritative by Christians of the Syriac tradition. The name 'Peshitta' itself means 'simple,' 'straight,' and 'pure.' While the various Greek manuscripts of the New Testament disagree, the available Peshitta manuscripts show surprising agreement in comparison.

Being our traditional Biblical text, the Peshitta provides our understanding of the New Testament.
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The Syrian Orthodox Church believes that the Holy Bible, which comprises of the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the divine word of God. Its Fathers labored in translating the Holy Scriptures into Syriac since the very dawn of Christianity. These Syriac translations of the Bible are the oldest and most ancient in any language. Further, the Syriac New Testament is quite unique for it presents the teachings of our Lord in an Aramaic dialect (Syriac) which is akin and would have been mutually comprehensible with the Palestinian dialect of Aramaic in which Christ taught. Since the translation of the Bible into Syriac started as early as the first century, the Syriac version preserves the very ancient renditions of the original texts. In fact, the Syriac Church Fathers produced a number of translations of the Bible and revisions of these translations from the original languages of the Bible.

The words of Christ were first transmitted in his native language, the Palestinian dialect of Aramaic, either orally or in a written form. It is from this Aramaic tradition that the Greek Gospels were derived. The Syriac New Testament as we know it today is an early translation of the Greek text back into Syriac, the Aramaic dialect of Edessa (Modern Urfa in Southeast Turkey). The Syriac Old Testament is a translation from the original Hebrew and Aramaic (a different Aramaic dialect from Syriac which is known by the name 'Biblical Aramaic').

The close similarities between the Palestinian dialect of Aramaic spoken by Christ and Syriac offer us a unique understanding of some of the Biblical readings...

Another interesting reading appears in the Lord's prayer. The King James reads "and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" (Matthew 6:12). The Syriac version reads "and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." This implies that we must first forgive our debtors before asking forgiveness from God. The English New Revised Version agrees with the Syriac in this verse!

In many instances the Syriac language offers interesting interpretations of Biblical verses. An understanding of Syriac homonyms, for example, help us clarify the reading in Matthew 19:25 (also Mark 10:25 and Luke 128:25), when Jesus tells us how much easier it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. The Syriac word corresponding to camel is gamlo which means 'camel.' However, gamlo has other meanings as well, one of which is given by the Syriac lexicographer Bar Bahlul (10th century) in his Syriac dictionary: "gamlo is a thick rope which is used to bind ships." Considering that Jesus was speaking to fishermen, this meaning of gamlo seems more appropriate.
http://sor.cua.edu/Bible/index.html

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 04:40:51 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2006, 06:50:14 AM »

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I purposely stayed out of the 'Flashing Coptic Icon' bruhaha and did not offer my opinion at all; just sitting back to see how far you would go to defend anything Coptic.

Well if you're seeking to imply that I will go out of my way to defend "anything Coptic" by mere virtue of its being "Coptic", then I would have to say that your impression is sorely incorrect. I will defend anything that warrants being defended, and if the issue in question happens to relate to a subject close to home then I will probably be more inclined to expend more time and energy to defend it than otherwise.

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I find the deChristianized "Santa Claus" found in every American shopping mall this time of year, an effront to St. Nicholas, to be an equally distasteful phenomenon.

Well I hardly find your example analogous in any relevant sense. Furthermore, the debate in that thread did not concern whether or not the object in question was tasteful or not. My three main points were that regardless of its being distasteful, a) its not an Icon, b) the flashing effect would not detract from, or distort the purpose of an icon even if the object were an icon, and c) the effect can be interpreted in a manner that serves the purpose of an icon. Anyway, I established those points in that thread, and they have not been addressed; there's no need to get into another discussion on it here.

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{What Bible do the Copts use, anyway? For that matter, the Armenians, too?}

I might create a thread in the OO section to deal with that issue.
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« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2006, 07:53:30 AM »

Thanks. Your response proves my point, emphasizes it, in fact.

Yes, please create such a thread there.
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« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2006, 06:15:54 PM »

For a translation of the Syriac Peshitta, that is perhaps more faithful to the Peshitta than George Lamsa's:
http://www.amazon.com/Syriac-New-Testament-George-Kiraz/dp/0971598681/sr=1-2/qid=1164492165/ref=sr_1_2/002-7713878-1700822?ie=UTF8&s=books

Peace.
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« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2006, 11:34:44 PM »

The following is from The Early Versions of the New Testament by Bruce M. Metzger:

Quote
The Peshitta version antedates the division of Syrian Christians into two rival communities, and hence it was accepted by the Nestorians as well as the Jacobites...
Until the beginning of the twentieth century, it was commonly held that the Peshitta Syriac translation was one of the earliest versions, if not the earliest, of the New Testament to be made.
The constant tradition among Syrian Christians has been that it was the work of one or more of the original Apostles or Evangelists, some naming Mark and others Thaddeus as the translator.
Among European scholars there was a general agreement that the Peshitta was in existence by the end of the second century, and certainly by the beginning of the third. Several went so far as to suppose that it was made near the close of the first century or early in the second...
In any case, however, in view of the adoption of the same version of the Scriptures by both the Eastern (the Nestorian) and the Western (Jacobite) branches of Syrian Christendom, we must conclude that it attained a considerable degree of status before the division of the church in A.D. 431. 

Peace.
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« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2006, 06:07:26 AM »

I started this thread to demonstrate that the antiquity and reliability of the Syriac Peshitta can be defended apart from George Lamsa and his followers. Lamsa, a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, did not use the traditional Peshitta text accepted by Syriac Orthodox Christians in his translation, but that of his Assyrian Church, which may have been influenced by Nestorian Christology. James Murdock's translation is more faithful to our Syriac text, but it's far too expensive for my taste. Out of the English translations of the New Testament, I prefer the NKJV for its readability and dependence upon the Byzantine text-type.

Peace.
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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2006, 02:33:37 AM »

?!ti deen I nehw rorrim gnad taht si erehW

Okay.....I know that this has been up for a few days....but I've only just seen it.  Here is my reaction:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2006, 06:37:56 AM »

I just finished reading Fr. Michael Najim's Antioch and Syriac Christianity article, and thought I would provide the link here since Fr. Najim seems to give a balanced treatment of the subject of this thread:

http://www.frmichel.najim.net/antiochandsyriacchristianity.pdf

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