OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 17, 2014, 01:30:47 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Aramaic Primacy [i]Before[/i] George Lamsa  (Read 6787 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« on: November 21, 2006, 05:01:25 AM »

Quote
This is William Norton's brilliant book on Aramaic Peshitta Primacy, from the 1800's! Before Lamsa, before Younan, before me and my cheap website, there was... Norton? I never heard of him either but this is an absolute gem. The guy was a legend. All credit to Larry Kelsey (another legend) for finding and painstakingly transcribing this rare and precious work. This work is so rare, I'm not even sure of the name... I think the title is "A Translation, in English Daily Used, of the Peshito-Syriac Text, and of the Received Greek Text of Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, and 1 John"
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/books/Norton.htm

Aramaic primacy didn't begin with George Lamsa, and therefore, an attack on George Lamsa does not equal a refutation of Aramaic primacy. I have no problem in accepting that the Apostles most likely wrote in Greek, as to reach the broadest audience possible, but this book looks interesting, and is free to read.

This part is particularly important to me:

Quote
THE CHRISTIANS OF ST. THOMAS, in India, whose profession of Christianity dates from the time of the apostles, maintain that Syriac was the original language of Scripture. Dr. Westcott says, "The Syriac Christians of Malabar even now claim for the Peshito the right to be considered as an Eastern original of the New Testament." (On the Canon, pg. 233.) "How shall we know," said one of them, speaking to Dr. Claudius Buchanan about the Greek Testament, "that your standard copy of the Bible is a TRUE TRANSLATION? We cannot depart from our own Bible. It is THE TRUE BOOK OF GOD, without corruption; it is that book which was first used by the Christians of Antioch. What TRANSLATIONS you have got in the West, we know not; but the true Bible of Antioch we have had in the mountains of Malabar for fourteen hundred years, or longer." Another of these professed Christians said, "If the parables and discourses of our Lord were in Syriac, and the people in Jerusalem commonly used it, is it not marvellous that his disciples did not record his parables in the Syrian language, and that they should have recourse to the Greek? Surely there must have been A SYRIAC ORIGINAL. The poor people in Jerusalem could not read Greek. Had THEY no record in their hands of Christ's parables which they had heard, and of his sublime discourses recorded by John after his ascension? You admit that Matthew was written originally in Syriac; you may as well admit John. Or was one Gospel enough for the inhabitants of Jerusalem?" (Dr. Etheridge's Syriac Christians, pp. 166-167.)

THE JACOBITES BEAR LIKE TESTIMONY, as to the origin of the Peshito...
"GREGORY BAR HEBRAEUS," Dr. Westcott says, "relates that the New Testament Peshito was made in the time of Thaddaeus and Abgarus, king of Edessa, when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the Apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia. This statement HE REPEATS SEVERAL TIMES, and once, on the authority of Jacob, a deacon of Edessa, in THE FIFTH CENTURY......It is worthy of notice that Gregory assumes THE APOSTOLIC ORIGIN of the New Testament Peshito AS CERTAIN; for while he gives three hypotheses as to the date of the Old Testament Version, he speaks of this as A KNOWN AND AN ACKNOWLEDGED FACT." (On the Canon, pg. 236.) Bishop Walton said that if the Peshito was "made by some one of the Apostles, it would have divine and equal authority with the other sacred books." It is therefore worthy of special notice that, according to Bar Hebraeus, the Peshito was "known" to be of "Apostolic origin," and therefore was known to be of the same authority as the Greek Text. Even Canon Westcott calls attention to the unwavering and unqualified nature of this testimony to a "known fact."
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/books/Norton.htm

Being Indian Orthodox, I would now like to seek what my church really teaches regarding the origin of the New Testament.

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 08:58:34 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 03:39:07 PM »

Given that Aramaic and Greek were the most common languages of the earliest Christians, it would not be surprising if versions of the New Testament were made in these languages early on, as in before the mid-second century. Christians of the Syriac tradition have held that the disciple Thaddeus compiled the Peshitta and brought it to Mesopotamia.
The oldest Syriac manuscripts are as old as the Greek, and therefore should also be utilized in discerning the original New Testament.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
SmoT
I am a verb
Banned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 04:19:20 PM »

Jeez M777,

Unplug for a while.

Go outside.....

Take a long walk.....

Hold a girls hand.....

You are WASTING your life on this board.

 Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 04:20:05 PM by SmoT » Logged

"I'm not saying you have to SmoT her or anything..." - Asteriktos
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 05:54:05 PM »

Jeez M777,

Unplug for a while.

Go outside.....

Take a long walk.....

Hold a girls hand.....

You are WASTING your life on this board.

 Roll Eyes
Firstly, SmoT, welcome to the board.
Secondly, Matthew777 was given similar advice 19 months ago by another poster:
It's nice outside - turn off the computer - ask a girl out - and LIVE!
So if in 19 months he hasn't taken this advice, I doubt he will take it now.
You are talking to a two trick pony: Evolution and Peshitta Primacy. Anything else isn't even on the radar. So I think you are wasting your time.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 06:12:51 PM »

Firstly, SmoT, welcome to the board.
Secondly, Matthew777 was given similar advice 19 months ago by another poster:..

Yes, a very similar poster indeed... Roll Eyes
Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Panagiotis
Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Phanar
Posts: 406


Advocating Liberty Since 1973


WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 06:23:51 PM »

!TomS, kcab emocleW
!lla retfa noitiurf ot emac detcejer uoy 'efaC sonysorhpuE ta tuoba deyarp I sreyarp esoht ekil skool tI

,sgnisselB
sitoiganaP
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 06:38:39 PM by Panagiotis » Logged


"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 06:32:17 PM »

!SmoT, kcab emocleW
!lla retfa noitiurf ot emac detcejer uoy 'efaC sonysorhpuE ta tuoba deyarp I sreyarp esoht ekil skool tI

,sgnisselB
sitoiganaP

You forgot to reverse "SmoT"......
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Panagiotis
Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Phanar
Posts: 406


Advocating Liberty Since 1973


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2006, 06:37:53 PM »

my Bad...
I shall edit!

Blessings,
Panagiotis
Logged


"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,747



« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2006, 08:24:15 PM »

Good grief... deja vu again for both...

james

Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
SmoT
I am a verb
Banned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 10:43:26 PM »

!TomS, kcab emocleW
!lla retfa noitiurf ot emac detcejer uoy 'efaC sonysorhpuE ta tuoba deyarp I sreyarp esoht ekil skool tI

,sgnisselB
sitoiganaP

?!ti deen I nehw rorrim gnad taht si erehW
Logged

"I'm not saying you have to SmoT her or anything..." - Asteriktos
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 12:02:33 AM »

Does everyone see what I'm saying? George Lamsa's extreme Aramaic primacy makes no sense, because it ignores why the Septuagint was made and other historical facts, while at the same time, the Syriac Peshitta should not be ignored because Syriac was, after all, the language of Jesus, the Apostles, and the earliest Semite Christians.

Hold a girls hand.....

Girls think I'm boring and "too intellectual," or at least the ones I know. I'm moving across state for college in less than two months, so I'd rather wait until then before dating again.

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 12:03:33 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
SmoT
I am a verb
Banned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2006, 12:06:57 AM »

Girls think I'm boring and "too intellectual," or at least the ones I know. I'm moving across state for college in less than two months, so I'd rather wait until then before dating again.

Peace.

Yeah. I am sure girls are different over there.
Logged

"I'm not saying you have to SmoT her or anything..." - Asteriktos
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 12:16:07 AM »

Does everyone see what I'm saying? George Lamsa's extreme Aramaic primacy makes no sense, because it ignores why the Septuagint was made and other historical facts, while at the same time, the Syriac Peshitta should not be ignored because Syriac was, after all, the language of Jesus, the Apostles, and the earliest Semite Christians.

Didn't we  basically say that before, and you got all mad, and said we were all biased, and quoted some self-published PDF docs on the internet as support for your theory, which you now reject? Or am I misrepresenting what happened?
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 12:32:58 AM »

Didn't we  basically say that before, and you got all mad, and said we were all biased, and quoted some self-published PDF docs on the internet as support for your theory, which you now reject? Or am I misrepresenting what happened?

The are many examples of split words, parts of the New Testament which make more sense in the Aramaic than in the Greek, pointing to a possible Aramaic original or a dependence upon Aramaic sources, but that does not automatically make the Greek an inferior text.

The Syriac Peshitta must be considerably early, given that it was accepted by both the "Monophysite" Orthodox Syrian Christians and the "Nestorian" Assyrians. If the Peshitta were made after these groups broke off from each other, who subsequently disagreed on almost everything to the point of bitter hostility, it's highly unlikely that it would have been accepted by both as inspired and authoritative.

While I prefer the Syriac Peshitta, in being the traditional Biblical text of my church, and from the language of Jesus and His Apostles, I do not subscribe to Lamsa's anti-Hellenistic bias, nor the apparent Nestorian influence of his Christology.

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 01:22:50 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 12:39:07 AM »

Yeah. I am sure girls are different over there.

Evergreen is supposedly a college for intellectual types, so I should not be worried, unless they are extreme secular humanists.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
SmoT
I am a verb
Banned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 01:34:09 AM »

Evergreen is supposedly a college for intellectual types, so I should not be worried, unless they are extreme secular humanists.

Peace.

Right. It's your intelligence that turns girls off.  Yeah, I am sure that is the reason Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 01:34:59 AM by SmoT » Logged

"I'm not saying you have to SmoT her or anything..." - Asteriktos
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 04:20:36 AM »

Right. It's your intelligence that turns girls off.  Yeah, I am sure that is the reason Roll Eyes

I've actually been told before that I am "too intelligent" or "too intellectual" and therefore, not fun.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2006, 04:21:17 AM »



The Syriac Peshitta must be considerably early, given that it was accepted by both the "Monophysite" Orthodox Syrian Christians and the "Nestorian" Assyrians. If the Peshitta were made after these groups broke off from each other, who subsequently disagreed on almost everything to the point of bitter hostility, it's highly unlikely that it would have been accepted by both as inspired and authoritative.



Matthewisn777 "logic" at its finest.  Roll Eyes
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 04:25:40 AM »

Could you please explain why three groups who have broken off from each other, and have bitter hostility toward each other, would accept the same version of the New Testament as inspired and authoritative, if it was made after they had already broken up? If you cannot understand the concept, that is not my fault.

For example, if the Peshitta were made by the "Monophysite" party, the Nestorians and the Maronites would not have accepted it after the division had already taken place.

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 04:34:31 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 07:02:17 AM »

I've actually been told before that I am "too intelligent" or "too intellectual" and therefore, not fun.

Awwww....don't listen to 'em! None of it is true.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2006, 07:28:06 AM »

Could you please explain why three groups who have broken off from each other, and have bitter hostility toward each other, would accept the same version of the New Testament as inspired and authoritative, if it was made after they had already broken up? If you cannot understand the concept, that is not my fault.

For example, if the Peshitta were made by the "Monophysite" party, the Nestorians and the Maronites would not have accepted it after the division had already taken place.

Peace.

Well, gee whiz there...this is way too intelligent for this good ole boy like me to fathom...why wouldn't they use the Greek text? Lemme' think ...maybe they couldn't read/understand Greek which goes a long way to explaining why they aren't in the Church to start with...
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2006, 07:28:36 AM »

Awwww....don't listen to 'em! None of it is true.


They were just being polite.  Wink
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2006, 07:58:25 AM »

Quote
...maybe they couldn't read/understand Greek which goes a long way to explaining why they aren't in the Church to start with...

That was surely a joke, right?
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2006, 08:34:58 AM »

That was surely a joke, right?

Good call, EA!
I meant to say," ...which goes a long way to explaining to start with why they aren't in the Church now...
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2006, 08:53:20 AM »

Quote
I meant to say," ...which goes a long way to explaining to start with why they aren't in the Church now...

No, no...my question was not directed at the issue of whether you think OO's ever were a part of "the Church", nor at the absurd manner in which you choose to connect your belief to your premise regarding the OO Church's familiarity with Greek thought/language.

My question was raised in relation to that very premise. Either you're joking or you need to take a proper course in the OO Church's socio-cultural development. I recommend [http://www.handbook.mq.edu.au/unit.php?edition=2005&unitCode=AHPG856] with respect to the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 08:55:35 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2006, 09:00:47 AM »

Rather than trade further insults with one so arrogant as you, I will simply ignore this.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2006, 09:02:53 AM »

the absurd manner in which you choose to connect your belief to your premise regarding the OO Church's familiarity with Greek thought/language.
To which OO Church do the Monophysites, Maronites or Nestorians belong? Because that is who Αριστοκλής is talking about in response to M777's question.
Could you please explain why three groups who have broken off from each other, and have bitter hostility toward each other, would accept the same version of the New Testament as inspired and authoritative, if it was made after they had already broken up? If you cannot understand the concept, that is not my fault.

For example, if the Peshitta were made by the "Monophysite" party, the Nestorians and the Maronites would not have accepted it after the division had already taken place.

Peace.
.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2006, 09:07:19 AM »

Quote
Rather than trade further insults with one so arrogant as you, I will simply ignore this.

Uncalled for. Again.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2006, 09:13:14 AM »

To which OO Church do the Monophysites, Maronites or Nestorians belong? Because that is who Αριστοκλής is talking about in response to M777's question..

I've never heard of any understanding of ecclesiastical history which conceives of a "Monophysite" Church in addition to an OO Church. Any reference to a "Monophysite" Church is evidently an intended reference--no matter how misleading or false such a reference may be--to the OO Church.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2006, 09:17:15 AM »

To which OO Church do the Monophysites, Maronites or Nestorians belong? Because that is who Αριστοκλής is talking about in response to M777's question..

Ευχαριστώ !
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2006, 09:33:50 AM »

Ευχαριστώ !
Παρακαλώ συγχωρήστε το παλικάρη. Σας παρανόησε.
(Tr: "Please excuse the young man. He misunderstood you.")
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2006, 09:44:31 AM »

Nice try guys; I feel sorry for whoever is dumb enough to buy it though.

Btw, I wander what implications can be reasonably derived from the fact that Matthew put the term monophysite in quotation marks when referring to this "Monophysite" Church in question? Maybe there are two OO Churches. Both falsely accused of Monophysitism; one knew Greek, and the other didn't. Aristokles was referring to the latter; it all makes so much sense now!.....................................
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 09:46:23 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2006, 09:57:57 AM »

Nice try guys; I feel sorry for whoever is dumb enough to buy it though.

Btw, I wander what implications can be reasonably derived from the fact that Matthew put the term monophysite in quotation marks when referring to this "Monophysite" Church in question? Maybe there are two OO Churches. Both falsely accused of Monophysitism; one knew Greek, and the other didn't. Aristokles was referring to the latter; it all makes so much sense now!.....................................

EA,
You need to calm down now and listen:

THIS is what M777 said (emphasis added):
For example, if the Peshitta were made by the "Monophysite" party, the Nestorians and the Maronites would not have accepted it after the division had already taken place.

To which Αριστοκλής responded (Emphasis added):
Well, gee whiz there...this is way too intelligent for this good ole boy like me to fathom...why wouldn't they use the Greek text? Lemme' think ...maybe they couldn't read/understand Greek which goes a long way to explaining why they aren't in the Church to start with...

Now, who is the "they" to whom Αριστοκλής is referring?
Αριστοκλής is not saying that the "Monophysite party" M777 refers to didn't know Greek. How could he mean this since he understands the Peshitta and Coptic texts to be translations of the Greek! He is therefore talking about the Nestorians and the Maronites who based their whole understanding soley on the translation without reference to the original Greek.

Do you see now how you have misunderstood?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 10:12:24 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2006, 10:09:59 AM »

ozgeorge, if he does see, I doubt he will admit it. Not his style once committed to argue. Too bad.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2006, 10:26:22 AM »

Quote
THIS is what M777 said (emphasis added):

Ah, it's all about where you choose to place the emphasis isn't it? Please allow me to explain why I believe you are misguided though probably well-intentioned and noble in your attempt to rise to Aristokles' defence.

Aristokles quoted the entire response of Matthew (not just the last paragraph):

Quote
Could you please explain why three groups who have broken off from each other, and have bitter hostility toward each other, would accept the same version of the New Testament as inspired and authoritative, if it was made after they had already broken up? If you cannot understand the concept, that is not my fault.

For example, if the Peshitta were made by the "Monophysite" party, the Nestorians and the Maronites would not have accepted it after the division had already taken place. [emphasis mine]


The main inquiry is in the first paragraph; the second paragraph serves to raise a hypothesis incidental to the main inquiry which concerns the "three groups who have broken off from each other", and not "the Nestorians and the Maronites" alone. Aristokles is clearly responding to the main inquiry.

Quote
He is therefore talking about the Nestorians and the Maronites who based their whole understanding soley on the translation without reference to the original Greek.

Not quite! Aristokles clarifies his understanding of the inquiry to which he is responding to by rephrasing that inquiry in his own words:

Quote
Well, gee whiz there...this is way too intelligent for this good ole boy like me to fathom...why wouldn't they use the Greek text?


He is granting Matthew's presumption that the OO, Nestorians and Maronites regard the Peshitta to be "authoritative and inspired", and is in essence attempting to respond to why they would regard this non-Greek version of the NT as such.

Quote
Do you see now how you have misunderstood?

Do you see how you have misunderstood?
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2006, 10:30:08 AM »

Do you see how you have misunderstood?
Yeah, thanks, I've seen the light........Goodnight.

ozgeorge, if he does see, I doubt he will admit it. Not his style once committed to argue. Too bad.
You win the bet. I owe you a beer.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2006, 10:33:06 AM »

Thanks. Foster's, please.

I will collect in person someday.  Smiley
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2006, 10:35:24 AM »

Funny. I was not even offended by Aristokles' implications; I simply sought to challenge their truth.

Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2006, 10:38:47 AM »

I simply sought to challenge their truth.
Well then you failed miserably. No beer for you.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2006, 10:50:31 AM »

Quote
Well then you failed miserably.

That's not a very fair assessment. It's not like i've been given a reasonable chance; i've been too busy dealing with the denial to the fact the claim was ever implicitly made in the first place.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2006, 10:55:19 AM »

That's not a very fair assessment.
Yes it is. You failed.

It's not like i've been given a reasonable chance; i've been too busy dealing with the denial
Then stop living in denial.

to the fact the claim was ever implicitly made in the first place.
This "fact" exists only in your own mind.
Now, who else do we know who develops "facts" in his own mind which no one else accepts as reality and then clings to them like a rottweiler?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Panagiotis
Libertarian/Orthodox/Lush
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: The Phanar
Posts: 406


Advocating Liberty Since 1973


WWW
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2006, 11:07:09 AM »

Now, who else do we know who develops "facts" in his own mind which no one else accepts as reality and then clings to them like a rottweiler?
George Bush and Tony Blair?
Smiley
*had to go there. Its in humour so please dont think I am trying to get political. Just a jab of bad humour.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
Logged


"The first condition for the establishment of perpetual peace is the general adoption of the principles of laissez-faire capitalism"
-Ludwig Von Mises
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2006, 11:15:59 AM »

Quote
Now, who else do we know who develops "facts" in his own mind which no one else accepts as reality


I didn't realise that you and Aristokles represent "everyone else".

Anyway, upon reflection, I do feel compelled to submit to your explanation; not because it is any more reasonable than the one I subsequently offered, but because given Aristokles responses to your attempt to defend him, it's clear he wishes to suggest that you are in fact accurately representing his intentions...which means, as reasonable as I hold my initial reading of his post to be, it would seem that I am implicitly calling him a liar, and I don't think this particular exchange is worth resorting to that.

So I do apologise, Aristokles, and will submit my logic to the trust I place in your honesty. I have no right nor reason to accuse you of lying.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2006, 11:19:10 AM »

I do feel compelled to submit to your explanation; not because it is any more reasonable than the one I subsequently offered
Of course not. Heaven forfend... Wink

So I do apologise, Aristokles, and will submit my logic to the trust I place in your honesty. I have no right nor reason to accuse you of lying.
Good on you EA!
I only wish the fires in the Blue Mountains were as easily put out!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 11:53:30 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2006, 01:10:56 PM »

Yes, I let ozgeorge carry my water here. I am too prone to rise to unnecessary argument with you here, EA.
This is M777's topic and as usual he makes leaps of interpolation, not interpretation. I did not think you had a dog in this fight until you decided to take issue on your terms. For that I apologize as I was having some fun watching you, yet again, over-react.
I purposely stayed out of the 'Flashing Coptic Icon' bruhaha and did not offer my opinion at all; just sitting back to see how far you would go to defend anything Coptic. I find the deChristianized "Santa Claus" found in every American shopping mall this time of year, an effront to St. Nicholas, to be an equally distasteful phenomenon. So to, when I saw you 'spinning' this into another unnecessary defense, I let it roll on. To quote new member SmoT, chill out.

{What Bible do the Copts use, anyway? For that matter, the Armenians, too?}
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,747



« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2006, 12:41:22 PM »

I do enjoy watching these topic's drift into...numbness...there are a few here fishing in the forum...

I don't care much for the bait...

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2006, 11:35:23 PM »

Well, gee whiz there...this is way too intelligent for this good ole boy like me to fathom...why wouldn't they use the Greek text? Lemme' think ...maybe they couldn't read/understand Greek which goes a long way to explaining why they aren't in the Church to start with...

You avoided the question, my friend. Red herrings are rather bothersome. Why would a Syriac-speaking people read a Greek text? That's like asking why the Greek Church preferred the Septuagint over the original Hebrew.

Quote
Dr. Westcott says also, "This version was universally received by the different sects into which the Syrian Church was divided [after] the fourth century, and so has continued current even to the present time. All the Syrian Christians whether belonging to the Nestorian, Jacobite, or Roman communion, conspire to hold the Peshito AUTHORITATIVE, and to use it in their public services.....The Peshito became in the East the fixed and unalterable RULE OF SCRIPTURE." (pg. 239). "The respect in which the Peshito was held, was further shown by the fact that it was taken as the basis of other versions in the East. An Arabic and a Persian version were made from it." (pg. 240).
Dr. Westcott has linked the Peshito with the Latin Vulgate in a passage which, if freed from reference to the Latin version, to avoid any discussion respecting it, says of the Peshito, "Its voice is one to which we cannot refuse to listen. It gives the testimony of Churches, and not of individuals. It is sanctioned by public use, and not only supported by private criticism. Combined with the original Greek [and the Old Latin], it represents the New Testament Scriptures as they were read throughout the whole of Christendom towards THE CLOSE OF THE SECOND CENTURY.....It furnishes a proof of THE AUTHORITY of the books which it contains, widespread, continuous, reaching to the utmost verge of our historic records. Its real weight is even greater than this; for when history first speaks of it, it speaks as of that which was recognised as a heritage from an earlier period, which cannot have been long after the days of the Apostles." (pg. 263).
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/Online_Version/books/Norton.htm


Again, if the Peshitta were made after the various schisms between Syriac Christians, it would have not been universally accepted among Syriac-speaking Christians.

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 11:46:06 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2006, 11:41:45 PM »

No fish here...you missed this conversation.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,406



« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2006, 02:28:02 AM »

But would that be the case? The King James Bible was translated in England at a particular time and setting and after other Churches had broken from Rome, such as the Lutherans and others.  Yet, for some time, the KJV was the major English translation.   If a work is a good one it is possible for many groups to use it.

Just a thought that crossed my mind.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2006, 02:44:29 AM »

But would that be the case? The King James Bible was translated in England at a particular time and setting and after other Churches had broken from Rome, such as the Lutherans and others.  Yet, for some time, the KJV was the major English translation.   If a work is a good one it is possible for many groups to use it.
Quote
The Peshitta can absolutely be dated to the fourth century or earlier. This is implied by the oldest manuscripts (since several are believed to date from the fifth century). Burkitt also points out that it is used by all branches of the Syriac church (which were well and truly sundered by the fifth century -- eventually they even came to develop different versions of the script, so that one can tell by the writing style which Syriac church used a particular manuscript), which implies (though it does not quite prove) that the version was in use before the date of the schism.
The Encyclopedia of New Testament Textual Criticism
http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/Versions.html#Syriac

You may be correct, but there should have been a record of initial protest if that were the case. When the KJV was first printed, there was considerable protest from Roman Catholics. On the other hand, the Peshitta appears to have been accepted from its very creation.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2006, 04:28:17 AM »

To which OO Church do the Monophysites, Maronites or Nestorians belong? Because that is who Αριστοκλής is talking about in response to M777's question..

The terms "Nestorian" and "Monophysite" have been used for the sake of convenience. The Assyrian Church of the East isn't "Nestorian," and neither is Syriac Orthodox Church "Monophysite," but these two groups historically would have made these allegations against each other. The Syriac Orthodox Church is part of the Oriental Orthodox communion, while the Assyrian Church of the East became separated from us long ago.

If the legend of Thaddeus' missioning to the Syrians is true, then the first New Testament we ever received was in Syriac or Aramaic. On the other hand, if the Peshitta is a Syriac translation of the Greek, then it is the earliest translation of the New Testament. With the Gospel's spread across the known world, translating the Scriptures into the vernacular became essential. It's rather arrogant to assume that every converted people should have used the Greek as their common text.

The Peshitta is considered inspired and authoritative by Christians of the Syriac tradition. The name 'Peshitta' itself means 'simple,' 'straight,' and 'pure.' While the various Greek manuscripts of the New Testament disagree, the available Peshitta manuscripts show surprising agreement in comparison.

Being our traditional Biblical text, the Peshitta provides our understanding of the New Testament.
Quote
The Syrian Orthodox Church believes that the Holy Bible, which comprises of the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the divine word of God. Its Fathers labored in translating the Holy Scriptures into Syriac since the very dawn of Christianity. These Syriac translations of the Bible are the oldest and most ancient in any language. Further, the Syriac New Testament is quite unique for it presents the teachings of our Lord in an Aramaic dialect (Syriac) which is akin and would have been mutually comprehensible with the Palestinian dialect of Aramaic in which Christ taught. Since the translation of the Bible into Syriac started as early as the first century, the Syriac version preserves the very ancient renditions of the original texts. In fact, the Syriac Church Fathers produced a number of translations of the Bible and revisions of these translations from the original languages of the Bible.

The words of Christ were first transmitted in his native language, the Palestinian dialect of Aramaic, either orally or in a written form. It is from this Aramaic tradition that the Greek Gospels were derived. The Syriac New Testament as we know it today is an early translation of the Greek text back into Syriac, the Aramaic dialect of Edessa (Modern Urfa in Southeast Turkey). The Syriac Old Testament is a translation from the original Hebrew and Aramaic (a different Aramaic dialect from Syriac which is known by the name 'Biblical Aramaic').

The close similarities between the Palestinian dialect of Aramaic spoken by Christ and Syriac offer us a unique understanding of some of the Biblical readings...

Another interesting reading appears in the Lord's prayer. The King James reads "and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" (Matthew 6:12). The Syriac version reads "and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." This implies that we must first forgive our debtors before asking forgiveness from God. The English New Revised Version agrees with the Syriac in this verse!

In many instances the Syriac language offers interesting interpretations of Biblical verses. An understanding of Syriac homonyms, for example, help us clarify the reading in Matthew 19:25 (also Mark 10:25 and Luke 128:25), when Jesus tells us how much easier it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. The Syriac word corresponding to camel is gamlo which means 'camel.' However, gamlo has other meanings as well, one of which is given by the Syriac lexicographer Bar Bahlul (10th century) in his Syriac dictionary: "gamlo is a thick rope which is used to bind ships." Considering that Jesus was speaking to fishermen, this meaning of gamlo seems more appropriate.
http://sor.cua.edu/Bible/index.html

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 04:40:51 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2006, 06:50:14 AM »

Quote
I purposely stayed out of the 'Flashing Coptic Icon' bruhaha and did not offer my opinion at all; just sitting back to see how far you would go to defend anything Coptic.

Well if you're seeking to imply that I will go out of my way to defend "anything Coptic" by mere virtue of its being "Coptic", then I would have to say that your impression is sorely incorrect. I will defend anything that warrants being defended, and if the issue in question happens to relate to a subject close to home then I will probably be more inclined to expend more time and energy to defend it than otherwise.

Quote
I find the deChristianized "Santa Claus" found in every American shopping mall this time of year, an effront to St. Nicholas, to be an equally distasteful phenomenon.

Well I hardly find your example analogous in any relevant sense. Furthermore, the debate in that thread did not concern whether or not the object in question was tasteful or not. My three main points were that regardless of its being distasteful, a) its not an Icon, b) the flashing effect would not detract from, or distort the purpose of an icon even if the object were an icon, and c) the effect can be interpreted in a manner that serves the purpose of an icon. Anyway, I established those points in that thread, and they have not been addressed; there's no need to get into another discussion on it here.

Quote
{What Bible do the Copts use, anyway? For that matter, the Armenians, too?}

I might create a thread in the OO section to deal with that issue.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2006, 07:53:30 AM »

Thanks. Your response proves my point, emphasizes it, in fact.

Yes, please create such a thread there.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2006, 06:15:54 PM »

For a translation of the Syriac Peshitta, that is perhaps more faithful to the Peshitta than George Lamsa's:
http://www.amazon.com/Syriac-New-Testament-George-Kiraz/dp/0971598681/sr=1-2/qid=1164492165/ref=sr_1_2/002-7713878-1700822?ie=UTF8&s=books

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2006, 11:34:44 PM »

The following is from The Early Versions of the New Testament by Bruce M. Metzger:

Quote
The Peshitta version antedates the division of Syrian Christians into two rival communities, and hence it was accepted by the Nestorians as well as the Jacobites...
Until the beginning of the twentieth century, it was commonly held that the Peshitta Syriac translation was one of the earliest versions, if not the earliest, of the New Testament to be made.
The constant tradition among Syrian Christians has been that it was the work of one or more of the original Apostles or Evangelists, some naming Mark and others Thaddeus as the translator.
Among European scholars there was a general agreement that the Peshitta was in existence by the end of the second century, and certainly by the beginning of the third. Several went so far as to suppose that it was made near the close of the first century or early in the second...
In any case, however, in view of the adoption of the same version of the Scriptures by both the Eastern (the Nestorian) and the Western (Jacobite) branches of Syrian Christendom, we must conclude that it attained a considerable degree of status before the division of the church in A.D. 431. 

Peace.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2006, 11:37:48 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2006, 06:07:26 AM »

I started this thread to demonstrate that the antiquity and reliability of the Syriac Peshitta can be defended apart from George Lamsa and his followers. Lamsa, a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, did not use the traditional Peshitta text accepted by Syriac Orthodox Christians in his translation, but that of his Assyrian Church, which may have been influenced by Nestorian Christology. James Murdock's translation is more faithful to our Syriac text, but it's far too expensive for my taste. Out of the English translations of the New Testament, I prefer the NKJV for its readability and dependence upon the Byzantine text-type.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2006, 02:33:37 AM »

?!ti deen I nehw rorrim gnad taht si erehW

Okay.....I know that this has been up for a few days....but I've only just seen it.  Here is my reaction:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2006, 06:37:56 AM »

I just finished reading Fr. Michael Najim's Antioch and Syriac Christianity article, and thought I would provide the link here since Fr. Najim seems to give a balanced treatment of the subject of this thread:

http://www.frmichel.najim.net/antiochandsyriacchristianity.pdf

Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.166 seconds with 85 queries.