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Author Topic: Arabic "Nicean" Canons  (Read 4815 times) Average Rating: 0
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nonchal
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« on: November 19, 2006, 04:21:28 PM »

CANON XXXIX.
"Of the care and power which a Patriarch has over the bishops and
archbishops of his patriarchate; and of the primacy of the Bishop of
Rome over all.

Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and
bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them
otherwise than it should be, let him change it, and order it, as seemeth
him fit: for he is the father of all, and they are his sons. And although
the archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the
care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is
over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power,
just as he who holds the seat of Rome, is the head and prince of all
patriarchs; in-asmuch as he is first, as was Peter, to whom  power is
given over all Christian princes, and  over all their peoples, as he who
is the Vicar  of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole
Christian Church
, and whoever shall contradict this, is
excommunicated by the Synod."


I know this was not in the original canons. But who knows when it was composed?

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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2006, 05:12:11 PM »

CANON XXXIX.
"Of the care and power which a Patriarch has over the bishops and
archbishops of his patriarchate; and of the primacy of the Bishop of
Rome over all.

Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and
bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them
otherwise than it should be, let him change it, and order it, as seemeth
him fit: for he is the father of all, and they are his sons. And although
the archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the
care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is
over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power,
just as he who holds the seat of Rome, is the head and prince of all
patriarchs; in-asmuch as he is first, as was Peter, to whom  power is
given over all Christian princes, and  over all their peoples, as he who
is the Vicar  of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole
Christian Church
, and whoever shall contradict this, is
excommunicated by the Synod."


I know this was not in the original canons. But who knows when it was composed?


Is there a Greek version of this Cannon that is worded differently? Anyway, at least we know that Arabic Christians supported the idea of the universal jursidiction of the Bishop of Rome.
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2006, 05:48:24 PM »

You mean Arabic Roman Christians...
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2006, 05:51:27 PM »

IMHO, looking at the wording in the non-bolded text of the Canon and the bolded underlined text, the wording of the two seems very different, in that the way things are said, the language used, is different, suggesting that the bolded text was added later.  Maybe I am the only one who is seeing that, though.
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2006, 07:58:42 PM »

IMHO, looking at the wording in the non-bolded text of the Canon and the bolded underlined text, the wording of the two seems very different, in that the way things are said, the language used, is different, suggesting that the bolded text was added later.  Maybe I am the only one who is seeing that, though.
Young one, to be able to make a judgement on such an issue, you would have to be able to read the text in its original Arabic.
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2006, 08:10:37 PM »

Young one, to be able to make a judgement on such an issue, you would have to be able to read the text in its original Arabic.

Maybe you would have to, I don't.  Orthodoxy doesn't preach the bolded text, so it is clearly an added piece of text, as Orthodoxy is the Truth.  I know you will disagree with Orthodoxy as the Truth, but as far as I know, no Orthodox would support this piece of text as being in the original, even if they had never seen the Arabic. 
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2006, 08:22:32 PM »

Maybe you would have to, I don't.  Orthodoxy doesn't preach the bolded text, so it is clearly an added piece of text, as Orthodoxy is the Truth.  I know you will disagree with Orthodoxy as the Truth, but as far as I know, no Orthodox would support this piece of text as being in the original, even if they had never seen the Arabic. 
Roll Eyes Andrew, you have a great deal to learn my young friend.
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2006, 08:45:03 PM »

Roll Eyes Andrew, you have a great deal to learn my young friend.
Andrew,
The only thing you need to learn is that Roman Catholics and Protestants are exactly the same faith but only one minor difference:
Instead of trying to find God by their own thought, volition and interpretation, Roman Catholics gave up and chose to have one man do it for them. Other than this, they are the exact same.

This is why the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and even the Coptics hold to Truths the West have yet to comprehend.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2006, 08:48:08 PM »

Andrew,
The only thing you need to learn is that Roman Catholics and Protestants are exactly the same faith but only one minor difference:
Instead of trying to find God by their own thought, volition and interpretation, Roman Catholics gave up and chose to have one man do it for them. Other than this, they are the exact same.

This is why the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and even the Coptics hold to Truths the West have yet to comprehend.

Christ is in our midst,
Panagiotis
Wow. Maybe you should learn about Catholicism before you come here and make such uneducated insluts against her. Eastern Orthodox Christians choose to have truth through democracy, a very silly idea. Catholics allow God to teach truth in the ways HE has chosen. Yes, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Protestants are exactly the same. They both refuse to submitt to the authority that God has established on earth.
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« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2006, 08:49:45 PM »

Roll Eyes Andrew, you have a great deal to learn my young friend.

Papist---

Please read the original post---the last line of the OP clearly states that...

Quote
I know this was not in the original canons. But who knows when it was composed?

Your usual trolling is tiresome except that you are your own worst enemy, and it is entertaining to see how your rebuttals actually weaken your own statements.

Anyway, drewmeister2's comments only agree with what the OP stated. Lord only knows why you oppose it...oh, wait, actually it's plain to see since you refuse to accept historical reality...

Anyway, nonchal asked...and I repeat this one more time...

Quote
I know this was not in the original canons. But who knows when it was composed?

So, when were the bolded lines added?
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« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2006, 08:50:32 PM »

Trust me, I probably know more about it, by spending most of my life at St. Andrews Abbey in Valyermo CA than you have been alive, dear sir...

God speaks volumes in silence.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2006, 09:11:44 PM »

This old canard again? The Arabic canons are infamous forgeries.
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2006, 09:24:42 PM »

Papist---

Please read the original post---the last line of the OP clearly states that...

Your usual trolling is tiresome except that you are your own worst enemy, and it is entertaining to see how your rebuttals actually weaken your own statements.

Anyway, drewmeister2's comments only agree with what the OP stated. Lord only knows why you oppose it...oh, wait, actually it's plain to see since you refuse to accept historical reality...

Anyway, nonchal asked...and I repeat this one more time...

So, when were the bolded lines added?
You completely missed my point. I was not saying that this cannon was not added. I know that it was. What I am trying to figure out is whether or not there is a greek counterpart that is different. Furthermore, if there is no Greek counterpart, then maybe the entire Arabic text of this cannon is a seemless whole even though it is not part of the council documents. If there is no greek version of this canno, the only way to know whether or not it is seemless whole is to see the text in Arabic. BTW, the lack of Charity I see in the Eastern "Orthodox" such as yourself only weakens your arguments for the "truth" of Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2006, 09:26:17 PM »

Trust me, I probably know more about it, by spending most of my life at St. Andrews Abbey in Valyermo CA than you have been alive, dear sir...

God speaks volumes in silence.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
One can be a Catholic and even a priest, or monk, or friar, and still not know Catholicism and never have had a Catholic mind. I suspect that is the case with anyone who would jump out of the Universal Ark of salvation into the raging flood of error.
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2006, 09:28:36 PM »

So, when were the bolded lines added?

Probably late. The more important questions are (a) by whom, (b) in what context, (c) for what reason.

The early African Church had a long history of canonical forgeries, especially over issues of jurisdiction, and there were several major disputes over the nature of Rome (and Milan's!) authority as appellate court.

Consider the Apiarius affair in 418, where the papal legate tried to pretend the pro-Roman canons from Sardica were actually from Nicaea. The African Bishops had to send a missal to Constantinople, asking if Constantinople could send certified copies of the actual canons, so that they could verify the legate's claims.

(And that after several serious codifications!!)
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2006, 09:32:44 PM »

Trust me, I probably know more about it, by spending most of my life at St. Andrews Abbey in Valyermo CA than you have been alive, dear sir...

God speaks volumes in silence.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
Only when you are truely listening. Anyone who would leave God's Church is not listening.
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2006, 09:33:39 PM »

One can be a Catholic and even a priest, or monk, or friar, and still not know Catholicism and never have had a Catholic mind. I suspect that is the case with anyone who would jump out of the Universal Ark of salvation into the raging flood of error.

Your posts here have become increasingly bitter and destructive. This is an Eastern Orthodox discussion forum. Of course debate is welcome, but please stop acting as if it's some horrible surprise that some of us actually like our Church and disagree with you.
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2006, 09:42:44 PM »

This old canard again? The Arabic canons are infamous forgeries.

What is the approximate date of their composition?

Some observations:

(a) This canon teaches universal papal jurisdiction; the pope is sort of the patriarch of the entire world; other patriarchs and their faithful are subject to him.

(b) Arabic Christians would have been unaware of this West Roman Petrine tradition until the 400s.

(c) There would have been no reason for them to state this in such bold and exaggerated terms unless for political purposes.

(d) As far as I know the word "patriarch" was not used until the mid 400s.

(e) The overall ecclesial structure seems so advanced that this canon must be placed after Chalcedon.

(f) This canon is also in an Arabic collection:

Canon XXXVII
Let there be only four patriarchs in the whole world as there are four
writers of the Gospel, and four rivers, etc. And let there be a prince
and chief over them, the lord of the see of the Divine Peter at Rome,
according as the Apostles commanded. And after him the lord of the
great Alexandria, which is the see of Mark. And the third is the lord of
Ephesus, which is the see of John the Divine who speaks divine
things. And the fourth and last is my lord of Antioch, which is another
see of Peter. And let all the bishops be divided under the hands of
these four patriarchs; and the bishops of the little towns  which are
under the dominion of the great cities let them be under the authority
of these metropolitans. But let every metropolitan of these great cities
appoint  the bishops of his province, but let none of the bishops
appoint him, for he is greater than they. Therefore let every man know
his own rank, and let him not usurp the rank of another. And
whosoever shall contradict this law which we  have established the
Fathers of the Synod  subject him to anathema.


(g) The four patriarchs mentioned are Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, and Ephesus.

(h) The opening statement is "LET THERE BE ONLY FOUR..."

(i) Constatinople should have been mentioned. The exclusion is purposeful.

But what was their purpose? WHEN was this composed?


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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2006, 09:43:02 PM »

One can be a Catholic and even a priest, or monk, or friar, and still not know Catholicism and never have had a Catholic mind. I suspect that is the case with anyone who would jump out of the Universal Ark of salvation into the raging flood of error.

What presumption.  Do you think that I run around and say that ex-Orthodox Roman Catholics were all really just ignorant? Of course not. Some didn't like Orthodoxy. It's unfortunate but a reality.

I knew a lot about Catholicism when I was Catholic, but when I realized that your "proofs" are often based on lies and distortions like the Arabic canons (which are quoted in Jesus, Peter and the Keys) I looked deeper and found the truth of Orthodoxy.

When I came out of the water on my third immersion, I felt a peace I never felt in my days as a Catholic, and sins I could never conquer via repeated confessions and ascetic exercises were destroyed in baptism.  Facts and experience combined--a powerful proof of Orthodoxy over your heresy.

Anastasios
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2006, 09:53:49 PM »

What presumption.  Do you think that I run around and say that ex-Orthodox Roman Catholics were all really just ignorant? Of course not. Some didn't like Orthodoxy. It's unfortunate but a reality.

I knew a lot about Catholicism when I was Catholic, but when I realized that your "proofs" are often based on lies and distortions like the Arabic canons (which are quoted in Jesus, Peter and the Keys) I looked deeper and found the truth of Orthodoxy.

When I came out of the water on my third immersion, I felt a peace I never felt in my days as a Catholic, and sins I could never conquer via repeated confessions and ascetic exercises were destroyed in baptism.  Facts and experience combined--a powerful proof of Orthodoxy over your heresy.

Anastasios
So I guess the facts and experiences of St. Franis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Martind De Porres, St. Maxamillion Kolbe, St. Padre Pio, Blessed Theresa of Calcutta count for nothing? I am sorry but I think that their experiences count a great deal more than yours do and they are a powerful proof of Catholicism over your heresy.
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2006, 10:08:43 PM »

Papist,
Due to repeated warnings, uncharitable behaviour, insulting of the Orthodox Faith, and a general consensus of continuous trolling behaviour, you are hereby officially warned and your posts shall be closely watched by me and the other moderators.  If said behaviour continues, further consequences may follow.  This goes for you and for all, posts that show on a consist ant basis a tendency to troll, will not be tolerated!
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2006, 10:15:28 PM »

So I guess the facts and experiences of St. Franis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Martind De Porres, St. Maxamillion Kolbe, St. Padre Pio, Blessed Theresa of Calcutta count for nothing? I am sorry but I think that their experiences count a great deal more than yours do and they are a powerful proof of Catholicism over your heresy.

To butt into the debate... I think the RC EO and OO have saints with divine experiences. There have also been miracles and apparitions in all three communions. This does not mean that each is the True Church. One of them must be the True Church and the other two are in schism. But the point is that individuals can receive great graces in objective schism while via invincible ignorance their hearts are not schismatic. So the argument from saints, miracles, experiences etc is evidence on a personal level alone.

BACK ON TOPIC....
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2006, 10:30:32 PM »

So I guess the facts and experiences of St. Franis of Assisi, St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Martind De Porres, St. Maxamillion Kolbe, St. Padre Pio, Blessed Theresa of Calcutta count for nothing? I am sorry but I think that their experiences count a great deal more than yours do and they are a powerful proof of Catholicism over your heresy.

I did not mean to give the impression that I saw facts as "my facts" insofar as that you could infer that there were facts of these other people you mention.  I believe that the facts are historical and prove Orthodoxy; then after that my experience is a nice corollary to the facts.
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2006, 11:05:44 PM »

dantxny,
I admit I was being harsh. I was overzealous and if this has caused a grudge between people here I greatly apologize.

In light of recent events, just to let people know I was never Roman Catholic but I lived literally a few stones throw from St. Andrews Abbey and would frequent there to pray. I learned alot from those Benedictine monks. In fact they encouraged me to join the Eastern Orthodox Church, along side of a Dominican Priest. But to Papist, I ws never Roman Catholic though I did consider it for a small time, but I truly asked God to guide me to the First Church and this is where He led me. Now I am in the presence of the Most High every Liturgy.

Blessings and forgiveness,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2006, 11:27:57 PM »

Come on guys,

You can clearly see that papist is getting upset here, and probably a bit emotional, so what do you do? Issue him a verbal warning (since I presume your warning system is still down)Huh How boring. The art of rhetoric offers you hundreds of creative responses, and you go with an appeal to personal authority!?! I'm so disappointed. And what I'm even more upset about is that you pulled this little stunt before I had a chance to make a real counterattack. Shocked :'( Grin
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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2006, 12:00:07 AM »

This saddens me too...


...NOT!


So back on topic...

WHEN was the interpolation composed?
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2006, 12:14:45 AM »

For a discussion related to your question I'd recommend the 'Excursus on the Number of the Nicene Canons' from Volume 14, Series II of the Post Nicene Fathers.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.vii.vi.xxxi.html

I dont know that it discusses this canon specifically, but does relay that some of the Arabic canons are paraphrasings of laws of Theodosios and Justinian, the latter of which reigned in the mid sixth century. The author also references Hefele's History of the Councils, if you want to look up that source it may have more on the subject.

But I still think that the art of rhetoric is much more fun Grin
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2006, 06:01:43 AM »

To butt into the debate... I think the RC EO and OO have saints with divine experiences. There have also been miracles and apparitions in all three communions. This does not mean that each is the True Church. One of them must be the True Church and the other two are in schism. But the point is that individuals can receive great graces in objective schism while via invincible ignorance their hearts are not schismatic. So the argument from saints, miracles, experiences etc is evidence on a personal level alone.

BACK ON TOPIC....

That is why I do not like, from my Catholic perspective, to refer to most Orthodox as schismatic. The schism happened long ago---today the real schismatic is the one with the uncharitably schismatic attitude, on either side. God's grace and mercy are so overflowing that I believe they wash over and overcome our separation (though we cannot do likewise).
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2006, 01:36:08 PM »


But I still think that the art of rhetoric is much more fun Grin

Fun to you, but probably not to most of the rest of us.  Just because one is skilled at arguing, doesn't mean they're right...or even engaging in charitable behaviour.
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2006, 06:18:48 PM »

Fun to you, but probably not to most of the rest of us.  Just because one is skilled at arguing, doesn't mean they're right...or even engaging in charitable behaviour.

No, rhetoric, no matter how skillfully presented, doesn't make an argument right or wrong...it simply makes the issue of right and wrong irrelevant. It rarely works with idealists, but fortunately for us idealists only make up a very small segment of society (even if they are on this board in disproportionate numbers).
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« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2006, 07:40:32 PM »

Wow. Maybe you should learn about Catholicism before you come here and make such uneducated insluts against her. Eastern Orthodox Christians choose to have truth through democracy, a very silly idea. Catholics allow God to teach truth in the ways HE has chosen. Yes, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Protestants are exactly the same. They both refuse to submitt to the authority that God has established on earth.

Caesero-papism isn't a truth of God. It's that very statement ("truth though democracy") that suggests how apparent medieval feudalism has permeated the hierarchy of Roman Catholicism - putting everything through a political lense. And then to slam a belief  - that holds Christ's teaching that His Kingdom of not of this world very highly, a belief not willing to place some political leader in order to re-create a Roman State but rather opting to serve both His Heavenly Kingdom and Witness on Earth (the Church) - is almost ridiculous.

We do indeed submit to an apostolically founded authority, in the omophorions of the Bishops with apostolic sucession - however, it is sacrelidge to submit to someone placing himself on a pedestal, mimicking the very position Christ holds - King over all.

Peace,
Ioannis
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« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2008, 12:54:18 PM »

CANON XXXIX.
"Of the care and power which a Patriarch has over the bishops and
archbishops of his patriarchate; and of the primacy of the Bishop of
Rome over all.

Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and
bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them
otherwise than it should be, let him change it, and order it, as seemeth
him fit: for he is the father of all, and they are his sons. And although
the archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the
care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is
over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power,
just as he who holds the seat of Rome, is the head and prince of all
patriarchs; in-asmuch as he is first, as was Peter, to whom  power is
given over all Christian princes, and  over all their peoples, as he who
is the Vicar  of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole
Christian Church
, and whoever shall contradict this, is
excommunicated by the Synod."


I know this was not in the original canons. But who knows when it was composed?

A couple of things, just from this, on dating:

1) Since Nicea made only 20 canons, we know this is a forgery.

2) It is in Arabic.  Now, Arabic does not become a written literary language until after the rise of Islam and the establishment of the caliphate.  Based on the evidence of Christian Arabic documents, the EARLIEST these canons can date is from the second half of the 8th cent., i.e. over 4 centuries AFTER Nicea, and at BEST, a contemporary of the Seventh Ecumenical council.

3) Yes, Constantinople being omitted in the other Arabic canon when it had already been established as the second See shows an axe to grind.

4) Since Ephesus had been destroyed by an earthquake, its harbor silted up, and sacked by the Arabs/Muslims by the 8th cent., the appeal to anachronism also speaks ill for it.

5) A inconvenient little fact forgotten by the ultramontanist is that whereas during the last centuries of the first milleninium New Rome had most of her patriarchate intact, Rome had lost most of her original patriarchate (and most of that to this day) to the Muslims.  And Rome had issues all during the period enforcing its authority on the Mozarabic Church of Spain, and trying to suppress its native rites.  So, we can't be sure that this forgery came from the East.

6) Hefele mentions a Maronite in connection with these canons.  Despite the mythology othewise, the Maronites were not under Rome until the 12th century (we have eyewitness reports to that).  I.e., not well until after the Orthodox had struggled against the ultramontanists for centuries.  Btw, a Maronite source doesn't mean he didn't make use of a Western forgery: Spain and North Africa were in regular contact with the Arabs and others back East.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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