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Author Topic: Sspx returning to the Roman Catholic Church?  (Read 3821 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nigula Qian Zishi
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« on: April 21, 2003, 01:09:04 PM »

April 21, 2003                        

Pope woos conservatives expelled for rebellion
By Richard Owen in Rome
                       
THE Pope is to heal a breach with rebel arch-conservatives in the Roman Catholic Church by reinstating excommunicated followers of the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who broke with Rome in 1988 to protest against the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, including the abolition of the Latin Mass.  

The schism had caused the Pope much anguish, Vatican sources said. By bringing the more “moderate schismatics” back into the fold he hoped to isolate extreme followers of Dr Lefebvre and close the matter, as one of the last acts of reconciliation in his pontificate.  

The Rome daily newspaper Il Messaggero said that this would mark a victory for the Pope in the battle for the “soul of the Church”, which had been going on since Vatican II in the 1960s.  

Dr Lefebvre condemned the council’s reforms as “Marxist” and “neo-Protestant”. He demanded traditional Masses in Latin, frequent confession and an emphasis on the realities of Hell as a punishment for mortal sin.  

The Vatican told Dr Lefebvre to desist and a formal canonical warning was issued in June 1988. The final straw for the Vatican was his ordination of four bishops “without a pontifical mandate and contrary to the will of the Supreme Pontiff”. He was excommunicated with the four bishops.  

The order, which was issued on behalf of the Pope by Cardinal Bernardin Gantin of Benin, the Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops at the time, declared that Dr Lefebvre and the bishops had “incurred ipso facto excommunication”, the penalty envisaged by Canon Law. He said that those who supported “the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre” would also incur “the very grave penalty of excommunication”.  

Until his death in 1991 Dr Lefebvre, who had served as a bishop in Gabon and Dakar, before becoming Archbishop of Tulle in his native France in 1962, continued to voice hardline opposition to church “liberalism”.  

The Pope’s reconciliatory moves are being resisted by a group of arch-traditionalists led by the British-born Bishop Richard Williamson, one of the four prelates ordained by Dr Lefebvre.  

Bishop Williamson has said that the Vatican has “sold its soul to liberalism”. He said recently that the gulf between the traditionalists and the Pope was unbridgeable, and that the Pope had a “weak grasp of Catholicism”.  

The readmission to the Church of the three other bishops who were ordained by Dr Lefebvre — Bernard Fellay of Switzerland, Bernard Tissier of France and Alfonso de Gallareta of Argentina — is to be announced next month at a Mass at the Basilica of St Mary Major in Rome, conducted by Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos of Colombia, head of the Congregation for the Clergy. The Cardinal is seen by many as a credible Latin American candidate to be the next Pope.  

Vatican sources said that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, 75, had begun secret negotiations in the Vatican more than two years ago with the moderate wing of the schismatics, led by Bishop Fellay. The talks had had the Pope’s blessing.  

The Corriere della Sera newspaper said that, in a gesture to the returning “prodigal sons”, Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos would hold the Mass in Latin, the first time that a Latin Mass had been said in one of the main Rome basilicas for more than 30 years.  

It appears that the ordination of the bishops will be recognised in retrospect as part of their readmission to the fold. It is not clear how many of the 400 priests who also joined the Lefebvre movement — known as the Society of St Pius X — will follow suit. The society, which Dr Lefebvre founded in 1969 to fight the Vatican, has an estimated 150,000 followers, who will have to decide whether to rejoin the mainstream.  

Despite the concession of the Latin Mass, the returning bishops will have to swear loyalty not only to the Pope but also to the conclusions of Vatican II. Dr Lefebvre said that the council had “destroyed the Church, ruined the priesthood and abolished the sacrifice of the Mass and the sacraments”.  

There is a provision by Vatican II, reinforced by the Pope, for the Latin — or Tridentine — Mass to be said by special dispensation. It remains the exception rather than the rule.Dr Lefebvre’s denunciations of what he called the neo-modernism and neo-Protestantism of Vatican II had brought him into repeated conflict with Pope Paul VI, who in 1976 forbade him to say Mass.  

The move by the present Pope is in part a gamble aimed at showing that many of Dr Lefebvre’s followers are willing to refuse to compromise and stay out in the cold. A hard core holds that the seat of St Peter is vacant, since they do not recognise the election of John Paul II.  

More moderate Lefebvrists, however, increasingly find this absurd, especially since the Pope has himself adopted sternly conservative measures in the twilight of his pontificate. Last week he reminded Catholics of the strict rules governing Communion — including the ban on joint Communion with Protestants — and last year he said that the trend among Catholic liberals towards mass absolution instead of individual confession was unacceptable.

Ramifications of the 'new Pentecost'  

Vatican II heralded “new Pentecost” by Pope John XXIII who convened bishops and cardinals for greatest Church overhaul since Council of Trent in the mid-16th century  
Sought to modernise the Church but keep traditional status:overhauled liturgy, replacing traditional Tridentine Masswith vernacular; priests were directed to face the congregation, not the altar  
Laity urged to increase participation in Church life. Council began Bible study, marriage guidance, social action groups and charismatic renewal movement  
Declared that other Christian denominations and religions had “good”, but it was the One True Church. In Decree on Ecumenism, the Church signalled its intention to work with other Christian churches, acknowledging that the “Spirit of Christ is at work in them”  

Condemned anti-Semitism and recognised “bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham’s stock”  

Also recognised other non-Christian religions “often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men”. “The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions,” it said
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2003, 01:35:57 PM »

 The Patriarch of the West must be feeling he is near the end of his earthly life, especially with the SSPX returning to the Church aka the prodgical son.

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Nigula Qian Zishi
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2003, 01:53:34 PM »

Here's the news of this from a Roman Catholic Source:

Traditionalist Group to Reconcile with Rome?
Vatican, Apr. 21 (CWNews.com)

Pope John Paul II plans to end a major breach within Catholicism, welcoming breakaway traditionalists back into full communion with the Holy See after a 15-year split, according to published reports.    

Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, the prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, will celebrate Mass using the Tridentine rite on May 24 in the Roman basilica of St. Mary Major. According to both the Italian daily Il Messaggero and the London Times, the cardinal-- who has been assigned by the Pope to seek a reconciliation between the Vatican and the schismatic Society of St. Pius X-- will lift the bans of excommunication on three of the four bishops ordained by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.    

The late Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated in 1988 when he presided at the episcopal ordination of four priests, in direct defiance of a disciplinary directive from Rome. The bishops who were consecrated that day also incurred the penalty of excommunication. But according to Il Messaggero, three of the four will be reconciled-- leaving one hard-line traditionalist bishop at odds with Rome.    

The Vatican has not yet responded officially to reports of the reconciliation with the traditionalist groups. However it has been confirmed that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos will president at the Tridentine-rite Mass on May 24-- becoming the first prelate in Rome to use the traditional liturgy in public since 1970.    

The Tridentine rite, also known as the Mass of St. Pius V, was the liturgical form used throughout the Catholic world prior to Vatican II. Traditionalist Catholics have, to varying degrees, rejected the liturgical reforms that followed the Council, and insisted on preserving the use of the Tridentine rite. Archbishop Lefebvre and his followers in the Society of St. Pius X also objected to Vatican II statements on religious freedom.      

Although he authorized the excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988, Pope John Paul II has worked for years to reconcile the traditionalists, and in 2000 he authorized Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos to proceed with direct negotiations with traditionalist prelates. In January 2002 those talks bore their first fruits when a separate Brazilian traditionalist group, located in the Diocese of Campos, reached a full agreement with the Holy See and was restored to communion with Rome.    

According to Il Messaggero, a similar agreement has now been reached with three of the four bishops of the Society of St. Pius X: Bishops Bernard Fellay (the group's leader), Bernard Tissier, and Alonso de Gallareta. The Italian newspaper reported that the Vatican would recognize all three as bishops in good standing, while only one holdout, Bishop Richard Williamson, would remain adamant in rejecting the Vatican's offers.      

Despite the absence of confirmation for the story in Il Messaggero, the fact that Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos will celebrate a Tridentine-rite Mass is a dramatic gesture toward traditionalist Catholics. In 1984, Pope John Paul called authorized the use of the old rite at the discretion of diocesan bishops, but traditionalists frequently complained that most bishops were slow to provide that authorization-- if they allowed the "indult" Mass at all.    

The new negotiations between Rome and the Society of St. Pius X that began in 2000 reportedly opened with a letter in which Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos assured the traditionalists that the Vatican would allow their continued use of the Mass of St. Pius V. But the Lefebvrist group proved cautious in negotiations, frequently questioning whether they could receive adequate assurance of the Vatican stance.    

In January, Bishop Fellay led a delegation to talks with Rome, during which the Society of St. Pius X expressed regret that two key traditionalist concerns had not yet been resolved. The group sought an assurance from the Holy See that all priests would be assured of the right to use the Tridentine liturgy, and that all disciplinary measures meted out against traditionalists after the 1988 break would be lifted. The traditionalists said that they had not gained assurances on either point. Since that time, the Vatican has not issued public comment on negotiations with the Society of St. Pius X.
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2003, 08:21:50 PM »

over at http://www.novusordowatch.org/archive.htm you can see that this rank rumor spread by modernists in Rome has been debunked by Bishop Tissier and by the SSPX HQ in UK and in KC-MO.

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« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2003, 12:14:45 PM »

It is a sad day when brothers and sisters won't even TALK about a reconcilliation.

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« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2003, 06:35:51 PM »

The SSPX won't talk because they know as soon as official Communion is "reestablished,"  The Tridentine Mass will be a fading memory.  they refuse to talk about reconciliation until Rome reinforces the papal bull Quo Primum so that they can be gauranteed for all time to have the Latin Mass.

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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2003, 07:12:10 PM »

Basically I agree - unless the promised Catholic restoration becomes more than talk and either the Tridentine Mass or something like it becomes the norm again, all bets are off. The SSPX aren't stupid - they know when they're being patronized.
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2003, 07:16:34 PM »

yup.  there have actually been sets of "reconciliation" (unnecessary according to the Roman Canons themselves) talks before.  The SSPX has never changed its position and said that it would be more than willing to restore "official" communion when Rome restores the Traditional (or more correctly True) Catholic Mass and True Catholic Faith.  

Not only this, but Rome is gonna have to kick out the homosexuals and other dissenters before true reconciliation can begin.  

According to the traditional Roman Catholic teachings, its not the SSPX who are in schism.

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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2003, 07:28:56 PM »

SSPX Superior General, Bishop Fellay, Denies Reconciliation Underway
From the Menzingen Headquarters:

The "Messagero" spread the news of a would-be reconciliation of three bishops of the Society of St. Pius X. with Rome. This latter would be announced on the occasion of the celebration of the Mass according to the Tridentine rite by H.E. Cardinal Hoyos next May 24, in the Roman basilica of Saint Mary Major.

Bishop Bernard Fellay, General Superior of the Society of Saint Pius X, knows nothing of such a story and assures that the four bishops, and not only three of them, are well united in their unchanged position for the defense of the Catholic Tradition according to the line of conduct traced by His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre

Menzingen, April 22, 2003
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2003, 07:30:07 PM »

Quote
Not only this, but Rome is gonna have to kick out the homosexuals and other dissenters before true reconciliation can begin.

I hope you really mean 'gays' or 'practising homosexuals' - no one can or should be thrown out of the church because of his orientation/temptations! More on this.
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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2003, 07:35:31 PM »

Thank you for your correction Serge, that is what I meant.  The way in which a person is tempted doesn't really matter, its how that person acts upon those temptations thats the problem.

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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2003, 07:38:58 PM »

PS:  Serge, allow me to compliment your new site as it is coming up much easier for me than the old angelfire one.  However I am concerned that you have an add for the Vestment Exchange at the bottom of your faith page.  Allthough this is a good idea a reading of their site should send up several red flags.  They openly supply female clergy.  They ask for female clerical shirts.  And it is rund by a female "priest" in the ECUSA.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2003, 05:51:09 PM »

The SSPX'rs really dont have any other place to go.  So, They need to be reconciled with the Roman Church which is good.

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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2003, 06:34:15 PM »

Thanks, JoeZollars. The Vestment Exchange AFAIK is the apostolate of an Episcopal nun, not an Episcopal priest, and while of course I don't believe in lady priests I have a linked VE banner on my Faith page because this sister offers lots of excellent traditional things, both Western and Eastern - she is doing a good work.

JoeS, agreed. Logically the SSPX really do have nowhere else to go.
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2003, 06:06:18 AM »

Basically I agree - unless the promised Catholic restoration becomes more than talk and either the Tridentine Mass or something like it becomes the norm again, all bets are off. The SSPX aren't stupid - they know when they're being patronized.

I agree too. What I wonder at is the motivation behind those who started the rumours in the first place. There was a reconciliation a few years ago if I remember correctly between Rome and the Brazilian diocese of Los Campos. I'm not sure if Los Campos was a full member of the SSPX organization or was some kind of 'independent' diocese in sympathy with it. Certainly, the SSPX have never forgiven this sell-out.

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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2003, 11:42:21 AM »

Christ is risen!

True, Brigid - the Fraternity of St John Vianney in Campos, Brazil (not the diocese) reconciled only a year or two ago, and at the time a 'mainstream' Catholic theologian bragged that eventually that order would give up its stand for all that silly old-fashioned stuff, starting by concelebrating with the local bishop at the Novus Ordo on Maundy Thursday. (I think he was French, and maybe even on the Vatican staff - see the link on my blog about 'The papal kiss' and check the editor's note for his name.) The SSPX are too smart to be treated like that.
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2003, 05:52:12 PM »

I find it interesting that the Pope is trying to get the SSPX to join back into his flock.  When I was a member of the SSPX I was always told that they were in communion with Rome, that they just didn't agree with all that he taught. Isn't it amazing what you find out when you leave the SSPX Church? I just know that I'm very happy and glad that I'm no longer a member of that church and am now ROCOR!

Mary
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2003, 02:19:13 PM »

A case can be made that the SSPX never really went into schism and the excommunications were uncanonical.  But I too am surprised.  The SSPX would change the Catholic Church (for the better) and I for one would be very surprised if the freemasons controlling vatican allowed it.  Personally I don't think Fellay will come "into communion" with Rome unless Williamson comes too.

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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2003, 02:34:39 PM »

Quote
I find it interesting that the Pope is trying to get the SSPX to join back into his flock.
 

The question is does he mean it and really agree with the SSPX or is just a power play using bait and switch?

Quote
When I was a member of the SSPX I was always told that they were in communion with Rome, that they just didn't agree with all that he taught.

Whether that's contradictory depends on what one means by 'all that he taught'. Catholics can believe that Popes make mistakes in prudential judgement, and that's where the SSPX is coming from.

Quote
A case can be made that the SSPX never really went into schism and the excommunications were uncanonical.

Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishops de Castro Mayer, Tissier, Fellay, de Gallarreta and Williamson were nailed on a technicality - episcopal consecration w/o Vatican permission - so AFAIK Bps Tissier, Fellay, de Gallarreta and Williamson are excommunicated.

Quote
The SSPX would change the Catholic Church (for the better)

Sure they would.

Quote
and I for one would be very surprised if the freemasons controlling vatican allowed it.

So would I.
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2003, 02:51:37 PM »

Did I miss something? Freemasons? Please provide solid evidence before saying such a thing. Thanks.

Matt
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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2003, 02:55:06 PM »

Quote
Please provide solid evidence before saying such a thing.

Good call.
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2003, 02:58:17 PM »

I've read heated interpretations of and sophisticated debates around what's going on behind the curtains.  Just keep your eyes and ears open towards the end of this month.  At this point, Heaven only knows what's to come around by then.

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