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Author Topic: St Basil on the Filioque  (Read 2308 times) Average Rating: 0
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nonchal
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« on: October 30, 2006, 12:49:38 AM »

"Even if the Holy Spirit is third in diginity and order, why need he be third also in nature? For that he is second to the Son, having HIS BEING FROM HIM and receiving from him and announcing to us and being completely dependent on him, pious tradition recounts; but that his nature is third we are not taught by the Saints nor can we conclude logically from what has been said." (Basil Against Eunomius 3)

Thoughts??

nonchal
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 08:37:14 AM »

Got it in Greek?
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nonchal
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2006, 02:52:41 PM »

I don't have it in Greek.

I would guess that St Basil is referring to the communication of divinity from the Son to the Spirit. The context is the divine nature. I would like to know what the Greek word for "being" he uses is though.

ANY THOUGHTS??

nonchal
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icxn
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2006, 05:19:27 PM »

The Greek differs quite a bit Roll Eyes from the above "translation". It must be one of those "latin corrections:"

ΕΥΝ. Ἀρκούντων δὲ ἡμῖν τοσούτων περὶ τοῦ  Μονογενοῦς, ἀκόλουθον ἂν εἴη καὶ περὶ τοῦ Παρακλήτου λοιπὸν εἰπεῖν· οὐ ταῖς ἀνεξετάστοις τῶν πολλῶν ἀκολουθοῦντας δόξαις, τὴν δὲ τῶν ἁγίων ἐν ἅπασι φυλάσσοντας διδασκαλίαν, παρ’ ὧν τρίτον αὐτὸ ἀξιώματι καὶ τάξει μαθόντες, τρίτον εἶναι καὶ τῇ φύσει πεπιστεύκαμεν.

ΒΑΣ. Ὅτι μὲν γὰρ οὐκ οἴεται δεῖν τῇ ἁπλῇ καὶ ἀνεπιτηδεύτῳ πίστει τῶν πολλῶν ἐμμένειν, ἀλλὰ τεχνικοῖς τισι καὶ σεσοφισμένοις λόγοις πάλιν πρὸς τὸ δοκοῦν ἑαυτῷ παρακρούεσθαι τὴν ἀλήθειαν, ἱκανῶς ἐξ ὧν εἶπεν ἐδήλωσεν. Ἀτιμάζων γὰρ τὴν τῶν πολλῶν δόξαν, á¾— δοξάζουσι τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, προσποιεῖται τὴν τῶν ἁγίων φυλάσσειν διδασκαλίαν, καὶ τοὺς ταύτην αὐτῷ παραδεδωκότας ἀποσιωπᾷ, καὶ νῦν, ἅπερ κἀν τοῖς περὶ τοῦ Μονογενοῦς λόγοις ποιῶν ἀπεδείχθη. Εἶτά φησι παρὰ μὲν τῶν ἁγίων μεμαθηκέναι τὸ τρίτον εἶναι τῇ τάξει καὶ Ï„á¿· ἀξιώματι, παρ’ ἑαυτοῦ δὲ πεπιστευκέναι τὸ καὶ τρίτον εἶναι τῇ φύσει. Τίνες δὲ οἱ ἅγιοι, καὶ ἐν ποίοις λόγοις τὴν διδασκαλίαν πεποίηνται, εἰπεῖν οὐκ ἔχει. Ἆρα γέγονεν οὕτω τολμηρὸς ἄνθρωπος, Ï„á½°Ï‚ περὶ τῶν θείων δογμάτων καινοτομίας εἰσηγούμενος; Τίς γὰρ ἀνάγκη, εἰ Ï„á¿· ἀξιώματι καὶ τῇ τάξει τρίτον ὑπάρχει τὸ Πνεῦμα, τρίτον εἶναι αὐτὸ καὶ τῇ φύσει; Ἀξιώματι μὲν γὰρ δευτερεύειν τοῦ Υἱοῦ παραδίδωσιν ἴσως ὁ τῆς εὐσεβείας λόγος· φύσει δὲ τρίτῃ  χρῆσθαι, οὔτε παρὰ τῶν ἁγίων Γραφῶν δεδιδάγμεθα, οὔτε ἐκ τῶν προειρημένων κατὰ τὸ ἀκόλουθον δυνατὸν συλλογίσασθαι. Ὡς γὰρ ὁ Υἱὸς τάξει μὲν, δεύτερος τοῦ Πατρὸς, ὅτι ἀπ’ ἐκείνου· καὶ ἀξιώματι, ὅτι ἀρχὴ καὶ αἰτία, Ï„á¿· εἶναι αὐτοῦ πατέρα, καὶ ὅτι δι’ αὐτοῦ ἡ πρόσοδος καὶ προσαγωγὴ πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν καὶ Πατέρα· φύσει δὲ οὐκέτι δεύτερος, διότι ἡ θεότης ἐν ἑκατέρῳ μία· οὕτω δηλονότι καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, εἰ καὶ ὑποβέβηκε τὸν Υἱὸν τῇ τε τάξει καὶ Ï„á¿· ἀξιώματι (ἵνα καὶ ὅλως συγχωρήσωμεν, οὐκέτ’ ἂν εἰκότως, ὡς ἀλλοτρίας ὑπάρχον φύσεως, ἀκολουθεῖν, ἐκεῖθεν δῆλον.

Simply put, the phrase, "having HIS BEING FROM HIM  and receiving from him and announcing to us and being completely dependent on him," does not exist in the Greek.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 05:23:28 PM by icxn » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2006, 05:33:42 PM »

I thought so.

Thank you, icxn
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nonchal
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2006, 05:45:35 PM »

THANKS for this clarification. Can someone give a more exact translation of this Greek text?

nonchal
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2006, 11:48:19 PM »

What is the Greek word used for "being"? Thats all I need to know.

Thanks
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 04:59:04 AM »

I'd be really curious to know how and when this sentence crept into the original text.

icxn,

Do you have a reference for that Greek text, and would you happen to know anything of its textual history?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 04:59:20 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2006, 08:00:01 AM »

What is the Greek word used for "being"? 
There isn't one. I think you missed the point.
There is no phrase in the original Greek which is equivalent to the text in bold red below:

"Even if the Holy Spirit is third in diginity and order, why need he be third also in nature? For that he is second to the Son, having His being from Him and receiving from him and announcing to us and being completely dependent on Him, pious tradition recounts; but that his nature is third we are not taught by the Saints nor can we conclude logically from what has been said."

If you remove this entire phrase in bold red, you get a translation of the Greek, i.e:

"Even if the Holy Spirit is third in diginity and order, why need he be third also in nature? For that he is second to the Son, pious tradition recounts; but that his nature is third we are not taught by the Saints nor can we conclude logically from what has been said."

The word "Being" in the context you mean would be "οντος" ("ontos") which is the present participle of "ειμι" ("eimi") which, in turn, is the verb "I am".
From "ontos" we get the word "ontology"- the branch of metaphysics which deals with existence. The word "οντος" simply isn't there, nor are there any other words in the original Greek that can be translated as the phrase in bold red above. In other words, what you are reading is a false translation in which an entire phrase has been added which doesn't exist in the original.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 08:11:31 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 02:09:08 PM »

I'd be really curious to know how and when this sentence crept into the original text.

icxn,

Do you have a reference for that Greek text, and would you happen to know anything of its textual history?
Here's the reference:

J.-P. Migne, Patrologiae cursus completus (series Graeca) (MPG) Vol. 29, Paris: Migne, 1857-1866: pg. 665, BASILIUS Caesariensis, Adversus Eunomium, libri 3.

Beyond that I can't help you. Perhaps, others will know more about its textual history, but it's obvious that the addition is a recent one (last 200 years). Migne, though Roman Catholic, preserved the original as we know it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 02:12:11 PM by icxn » Logged
Carole
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2006, 10:49:21 AM »

nonchal,

What is the source for your English quotation? 

I have no opinion on the Greek (as I don't speak Greek beyond ordering gyros).  I'm just curious about where the apparently altered quote came from.

Thanks!
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Carole
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