Author Topic: God the Father in Iconography  (Read 51561 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2011, 08:09:29 PM »
God the Father has never been revealed in human form, only as a voice (such as at the Baptism of Christ and at His Transfiguration). Iconography is concerned with the revelation of God, not with speculation or imagination.
The Ancient of Days in Daniel is clearly the Father and clearly a man with white hair and beard.

You will be told differently in this thread, I promise.
I've heard the view that The Ancient of Days in Daniel is Christ. It doesn't make any sense to me, though. Who then was the one like the Son of Man?


Nice avatar btw ;D!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 08:10:27 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #226 on: August 21, 2011, 08:12:05 PM »
God the Father has never been revealed in human form, only as a voice (such as at the Baptism of Christ and at His Transfiguration). Iconography is concerned with the revelation of God, not with speculation or imagination.
The Ancient of Days in Daniel is clearly the Father and clearly a man with white hair and beard.

You will be told differently in this thread, I promise.
I've heard the view that The Ancient of Days in Daniel is Christ. It doesn't make any sense to me, though. Who then was the one like the Son of Man?


Nice avatar btw ;D!

Thank you kindly!

Was your question re the Ancient of Days your one-thousand-three-hundred-and-thirthy-seventh post? Leet.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 08:12:29 PM by akimori makoto »
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #227 on: August 21, 2011, 08:13:01 PM »
The only versions I can find online all look like Christ to me, and by look I mean they all have the IC XC and OWN.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #228 on: August 21, 2011, 08:14:26 PM »
1338, looks like.

I think my leet post was on the RC doctrine of the Assumption. :-\
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #229 on: August 21, 2011, 08:16:41 PM »
The only versions I can find online all look like Christ to me, and by look I mean they all have the IC XC and OWN.
I believe those are based on Revelation 1. I was always told the whole Trinity can be equally be called Ancient of Days (which is why I like Ethiopian Trinity icons).
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #230 on: August 21, 2011, 08:19:42 PM »
The only versions I can find online all look like Christ to me, and by look I mean they all have the IC XC and OWN.
I believe those are based on Revelation 1. I was always told the whole Trinity can be equally be called Ancient of Days (which is why I like Ethiopian Trinity icons).
Most likely are. I have an icon of the Apocalypse which contains that icon, though it doesn't label it "Ancient of Days".

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2011, 08:26:01 PM »
The Fathers and the Seventh Ecumenical Council allow the Father to be portrayed as the Ancient of Days.

Please see messages 186 and 187
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg515769.html#msg515769

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2011, 08:31:43 PM »
The Fathers and the Seventh Ecumenical Council allow the Father to be portrayed as the Ancient of Days.

Please see messages 186 and 187
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg515769.html#msg515769
I guess it depends on whether one would rather believe St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite or the 1666 Synod of the Hundred Chapters.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 08:31:57 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Kasatkin fan

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #233 on: August 21, 2011, 08:35:51 PM »
The Fathers and the Seventh Ecumenical Council allow the Father to be portrayed as the Ancient of Days.

Please see messages 186 and 187
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg515769.html#msg515769
I guess it depends on whether one would rather believe St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite or the 1666 Synod of the Hundred Chapters.
The former was a local council, and dealt specifically with the running of the Russian Church. The 7th Ecumenical Council was, well ecumenical, and permitted the depiction. It does not force the depiction on any church.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #234 on: August 21, 2011, 08:43:04 PM »
I agree. It doesn't seem like everyone does though.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #235 on: August 21, 2011, 08:45:02 PM »
The Fathers and the Seventh Ecumenical Council allow the Father to be portrayed as the Ancient of Days.

Please see messages 186 and 187
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10122.msg515769.html#msg515769
I guess it depends on whether one would rather believe St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite or the 1666 Synod of the Hundred Chapters.

The 1666 Moscow Council kind of looses out on a few of its major points which the Church has ignored.

1.  It forbids depictions of the Father as an old man

2.  It forbids depictions of the Spirit as a dove ( have I got that right?)

3.  It forbids the Baptism of Roman Catholics.

So.... an important Council but the Church has not implemented all its decrees.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #236 on: August 21, 2011, 08:48:17 PM »
Quote
2.  It forbids depictions of the Spirit as a dove ( have I got that right?)
You're asking me? I haven't read all it's decrees.
Quote
So.... an important Council but the Church has not implemented all its decrees.
Indeed.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #237 on: August 21, 2011, 08:50:39 PM »
It would be difficult to say that Holy Trinity monastery at Jordanville is ignorant of the controversy about the Trinity icon or about the 1666 Council --- 55 holy monks plus all the erudite seminary professors and seminarians.

And yet, there in the church, as its most revered patronal icon is the forbidden Trinity icon, kissed and venerated by pilgrims, kissed and venerated every day by the monks after Compline.

Ironically, the same monks in the bookstore who sell booklets which are anti this icon are also kissing it and prostrating before it every day!!

The photo below shows this icon on the right side of the church in its own free standing 'throne.'

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Question about images of God the Father
« Reply #238 on: August 21, 2011, 08:54:34 PM »
Ironically, the same monks in the bookstore who sell booklets which are anti this icon are also kissing it and prostrating before it every day!!
Probably means they consider the matter a theolegoumenon.
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Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #239 on: April 17, 2016, 05:41:25 PM »
  I was always taught that since only Christ assumed flesh, he can be portrayed on icons, but never God the Father.

Whoever taught you this error must not be a very deep thinker.  The Holy Spirit has never assumed flesh, and He is depicted in icons.  Angels have no flesh, and yet they are depicted in icons.  The argument which says the Father must have taken on flesh in order to be depicted is fallacious and easily refuted.

St. John of Damascus - On the Divine Images, Third Apology:

If Holy Scripture clothes God in figures which are apparently material, and can even be seen, they are still immaterial. They were seen by the prophets and those to whom they were revealed, not with bodily but with intellectual eyes. They were not seen by all. In a word it may be said that we can make images of all the forms which we see. We apprehend these as if they were seen.

If it can be seen, it can be depicted.  That is why the Holy Spirit and angels are depicted in icons, even though they have never been incarnate.  The Father has been seen, so He can be depicted, and that is why images of the Father exist everywhere in the Church.

The Octoechos, Tone 5, Midnight Office Canon to the Holy and Life Creating Trinity, Ode 4, first troparion:

"Daniel was initiated into the mystery of the threefold splendour of the one Dominion when he beheld Christ the Judge going unto the Father while the Spirit revealed the vision."

St. Ephraim the Syrian
Select Works of S. Ephrem the Syrian: Volume II p.511

For when [God whom we have called] a mirror was incapable of old age, and the (Jewish) people incapable of the truth, He took to Himself old age for the instructing of the faithless: and since king and old man and child were become effeminate, He put on old age; as a venerable old man did He judge those iniquitous persons who were effeminate in sin. The Being that waxeth not old put on old age to teach by parables concerning His Son and His Beloved. By the mask of old age He shewed His Fatherhood to teach that He hath a Son, the Son of Man, Whom Daniel saw standing before the Ancient of Days, Who did away with mortal kings, and made Himself a King in the Son of the King Immortal. If it had been One only that was sitting, then had there been one seat; but for this reason he saw not one seat, but seats. He shewed that there was an Assessor with Him, and a Son to the Ancient of Days.

St. Epiphanius of Cyprus
Panarion Volume III

14,3 This Father, Son and Holy Spirit has always vouchsafed to appear in visions to his saints, as each was able to receive [the vision] in accordance with the gift which had been <given> him by the Godhead. This gift was granted to each of those who were deemed worthy, sometimes to see the Father as each was able, <sometimes> to hear his voice as well as he could. (4) When he said by the mouth of Isaiah, “My beloved servant shall understand,” this is the voice of the Father. And when Daniel saw “the Ancient of Days,” this is a vision of the Father. And again, when he says in the prophet, “I have multiplied visions and been portrayed by hands of the prophets,” this is the voice of the Son. And when, in Ezekiel, “The Spirit of God took me” and “brought me out unto the plain,” this refers to the Holy Spirit.

Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #240 on: April 17, 2016, 06:10:48 PM »
So, what is the "Ancient of Days" supposed to be?  I never understood that.

(2 February)
The Meeting of Our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ

Great Vespers
Tone One
(by Anatolios)

"The Ancient of Days, who in times past gave Moses the Law on Sinai, appears this day as a babe."

Since the Ancient of Days gave Moses the Law on Sinai, the appellation obviously does not pertain to the human nature of the Lord Jesus Christ, since the Incarnation had not yet taken place in the time of Moses. Therefore, if the title Ancient of Days pertains to Christ's divinity, then it pertains to the Godhead, and the name is shared equally with the Father and the Spirit.

St. Dionysius the Areopagite lists the appellation "Ancient of Days" as one of the Divine Names which applies to the Godhead.  Anyone who supposes that Christ alone is exclusively called Ancient of Days, would do well to read St. Dionysius' work, On the Divine Names.

St. Dionysius the Areopagite - On the Divine Names:

"Now, this, we have thoroughly demonstrated elsewhere, that always, all the God-becoming Names of God, are celebrated by the Oracles, not partitively, but as applied to the whole and entire and complete and full Godhead, and that all of them are referred impartitively, absolutely, unreservedly, entirely, to all the Entirety of the entirely complete and every Deity. And verily as we have mentioned in the Theological Outlines, if any one should say that this is not spoken concerning the whole Deity, he blasphemes, and dares, without right, to cleave asunder the super-unified Unity."

and...

"But Almighty God is celebrated as "Ancient of days" because He is of all things both Age and Time,----and before Days, and before Age and Time."

again...

"But Almighty God we ought to celebrate, both as eternity and time, as Author of every time and eternity, and "Ancient of days," as before time, and above time; and as changing appointed seasons and times; and again as being before ages, in so far as He is both before eternity and above eternity and His kingdom, a kingdom of all the Ages. Amen."

Offline Volnutt

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #241 on: April 17, 2016, 06:40:13 PM »
Is the NT Trinity supposed to be the vision of Daniel, though? St. Ephrem says that the Spirit revealed the vision to Daniel, not that Daniel saw the Spirit as a dove.
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Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #242 on: April 17, 2016, 07:06:36 PM »
Does anyone have any idea when and where we get the first mention of a "God the Father Icon"?

It depends on what exactly you mean by a "God the Father Icon".  Images of the Trinity and the Hospitality of Abraham have existed from the earliest of times.  I am not sure you would characterize some of these specifically as "God the Father Icons". 

Dogmatic Sarcophagus (320 - 350 A.D.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogmatic_Sarcophagus

Via Latina Catacomb (4th century)
http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/Images/Trinity/fresco%204th%20c.jpg

Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore - Fifth century mosaics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_di_Santa_Maria_Maggiore#Fifth_century_mosaics

https://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/rome_5th-century.jpg

http://www.christianiconography.info/staMariaMaggiore/hospitalityAbraham.jpg


Basilica of San Vitale  (6th century)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_San_Vitale

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/Images/Trinity/mosaic%206th%20c.jpg


If you are looking specifically for an earlier example of an image of the Father depicted as an old man with white hair, with the Son seated at His right hand, here is a Greek example from the 9th century, depicting the vision of the protomartyr Stephen:

https://flic.kr/p/FWRAFu

Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #243 on: May 02, 2016, 01:59:22 PM »
Here is the actual photograph of the image of the vision of the protomartyr Stephen with Christ at the right hand of the Father, from the 9th century Greek manuscript at the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris:

https://ica.princeton.edu/millet/display.php?country=France&site=&view=country&page=92&image=6083

and here:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525013124/f83.item

Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #244 on: May 02, 2016, 02:11:21 PM »
Here is a "Paternity" or "Fatherhood" image from the 11th century in a Greek manuscript of the Ladder of St. John Climacus in the Vatican archives:

https://ica.princeton.edu/millet/display.php?country=Italy&site=&view=country&page=16&image=7878

Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #245 on: May 02, 2016, 02:16:12 PM »
In this brochure (pdf) one can see an image of Christ praying towards the Father in a Miniature from the Monastery of Dionysiou on Mount Athos (codex 587), painted in Constantinople, circa 1059.

https://holyhill.com/~holyhill/images/pdfs/2014/MarianShrinesBrochure012714A.pdf

It can also be viewed (another pdf) here:

http://www.chaldean.org.uk/mag111.pdf

Offline Alkis

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #246 on: May 25, 2016, 11:26:18 AM »
It is forbidden to have an icon of God the Father. It is a sin. It is not a simple thing that doesn't matter. It is heretical. The only acceptable icon of Holy Trinity is the 3 angles with Abraham in Orthodoxy. We can only have an icon of Jesus Christ because he took flesh. And it is forbidden to have an icon of the Holy Spirit too. It is only acceptable in the icon of Theophany.
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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #247 on: May 25, 2016, 11:46:37 AM »
It is forbidden to have an icon of God the Father. It is a sin. It is not a simple thing that doesn't matter. It is heretical.

By what authority do you claim this?

Offline Alkis

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #248 on: May 25, 2016, 11:54:11 AM »
It is forbidden to have an icon of God the Father. It is a sin. It is not a simple thing that doesn't matter. It is heretical.

By what authority do you claim this?

I have read this on the rules of what and who is allowed to be drawn in icons by our Holy Fathers. In Exodus 20:4 Lord forbids us to depict the invisible God. Saint John the Damascene also said that we are allowed to draw only the visible and not the invisible.
For You light my lamp; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #249 on: May 25, 2016, 12:33:29 PM »
It is forbidden to have an icon of God the Father. It is a sin. It is not a simple thing that doesn't matter. It is heretical.

By what authority do you claim this?

I have read this on the rules of what and who is allowed to be drawn in icons by our Holy Fathers. In Exodus 20:4 Lord forbids us to depict the invisible God. Saint John the Damascene also said that we are allowed to draw only the visible and not the invisible.

The visions received by the Old Testament prophets: visible or not?

Offline Alkis

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #250 on: May 25, 2016, 12:35:58 PM »
It is forbidden to have an icon of God the Father. It is a sin. It is not a simple thing that doesn't matter. It is heretical.

By what authority do you claim this?

I have read this on the rules of what and who is allowed to be drawn in icons by our Holy Fathers. In Exodus 20:4 Lord forbids us to depict the invisible God. Saint John the Damascene also said that we are allowed to draw only the visible and not the invisible.

The visions received by the Old Testament prophets: visible or not?

I think it could be considered as visible. For example, I saw some icons of Ancient of Days. Our Church states that He is Jesus Christ. What else visions you have in mind? I will search for it.
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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #251 on: May 25, 2016, 12:41:03 PM »
I think it could be considered as visible. For example, I saw some icons of Ancient of Days. Our Church states that He is Jesus Christ.

Virtually every comment by the fathers interprets the Ancient of Days as representing the Father in the book of Daniel. It would be pretty difficult to read the passage in any other way.

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #252 on: May 25, 2016, 12:43:40 PM »
I think it could be considered as visible. For example, I saw some icons of Ancient of Days. Our Church states that He is Jesus Christ.

Virtually every comment by the fathers interprets the Ancient of Days as representing the Father in the book of Daniel. It would be pretty difficult to read the passage in any other way.

Yes in Daniel He seems to be God the Father. And then He gives to the Son of Man power and glory. In Revelation, at the first chapters, Jesus appeared to John with grey hair in His head and He said I am the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega. Maybe that is why they say that Ancient of Days is Jesus Christ.
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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #253 on: May 25, 2016, 09:36:46 PM »
I have read this on the rules of what and who is allowed to be drawn in icons by our Holy Fathers. In Exodus 20:4 Lord forbids us to depict the invisible God. Saint John the Damascene also said that we are allowed to draw only the visible and not the invisible.

Which Holy Fathers specifically forbid images of the Father and the Holy Spirit in the likeness of a dove?

Dionysius of Fourna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_of_Fourna

Dionysius of Fourna

The Painters Manual (ca. 1734 A.D.)
[A standard text used on Mount Athos by iconographers]

(p. 87)

[The tradition] from whence we derive [the practice of] painting images, and worshipping them.

The painting of holy images we take over not only from the holy fathers, but also from the holy apostles and even from the very person of Christ our only God, as we showed clearly at the beginning of the book (4). We therefore depict (5) Christ on an icon as a man, since he came into the world and had dealings with men, becoming in the end a man like us, except in sin (6). Likewise, we also depict the Timeless Father as an old man, as Daniel saw him clearly. (7) We represent the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, as it appeared at Jordan. (8 ) We also represent the image of the Virgin and of all the saints, according them worship indirectly, not to the image itself; that is to say we do not say that this really is Christ, or the Virgin, or whichever saint it is that is represented on the icon, but the honour that we pay to the icon we accord to the prototype, that is to say to the person who is shown to us oi the icon. Since we give a different degree of worship to the icon of Christ and kiss it, the honour which we pay it we really make to Christ himself, the son of God, seated on the right hand of the throne of the greatness on high, who for us became man. And seeing him crucified on an icon we at once assess to ourselves that the son of God should have come down from the heights of heaven, and having taken on bodily form of the holy virgin, died on the cross, so that we might be freed from our sins and from the tyranny of death, and that he should have raised up Adam and his seed from the darkness of Hell, to lead him up the first into his kingdom. We do not worship the colours and the skill, as those who are opposed to our Church clearly blaspheme, the faithless and the heretics, but we worship our lord Jesus Christ, who is in heaven; for as Basil says, the honour paid to the icon passes on to the prototype. (9) Again, looking at the icon of the Virgin, we reason that a virgin woman took upon herself so much grace that she became the mother of God, before the birth a virgin, during the birth a virgin, and after the birth remaining a virgin.

(p. 88)

Titles for the Holy Trinity.

The Eternal Father. The Ancient of Days.
The Co-eternal Son. The Word of God.
The Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father.
The Holy Trinity, one God of all.

On the cross, in the haloes round the three faces of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, write this: ‘Ο ‘ΩN [the Being;] for God said this to Moses in a vision, when he saw him in the bush: “I am that I am.” (2) And write it thus: put the Ο on the right side of the halo, and the Ω in the upper half, and the N on the left. (3)

Titles for the Holy Trinity, when you put the Father and the Son with open scrolls.

On the scroll of the Father: “I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning. Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies my footstool.” (4) On the Gospel book of the Son: “Holy Father, I have glorified Thee on earth, and I have manifested thy name unto the men.” (5) The other: “I and my father are one. I am in the father, and the father in me.” (6)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #254 on: May 26, 2016, 12:26:38 AM »
I'd like to have so many Patristic texts handy for any given subject like Cyprian700 or some posters who got inactive, it's like a superpower.
Only-begotten Son and Logos of God, being immortal, you condescended for our salvation to take flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and, without change, became man. Christ, our God, you were crucified and conquered death by death. Being one with the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit: save us.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #255 on: May 26, 2016, 12:31:29 AM »
I'd like to have so many Patristic texts handy for any given subject like Cyprian700 or some posters who got inactive, it's like a superpower.

Yes, the power to have multiple to have multiple word documents full of links and copied text. Look out, Superman.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Cyprian700

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #256 on: May 26, 2016, 12:35:23 AM »
St. Dimitry of Rostov (+1709)

"If someone portrays God the Father in the form of a most honorable old man, so it was in reality, when the prophet Daniel and the prophet Isaiah saw the "Ancient of Days," "sitting on the throne high and exalted, and the Seraphim are round about him." (Dan. 7:9; Isa. 6:1)."

Если кто изображает Бога Отца в виде некоего пречестного старца, так это было в действительности, когда пророк Даниил и пророк Исайя видели «Ветхаго денми», «се-дящаго на престоле высоце превознесение, и серафими окрест Его» ( Дан. 7 :9 ; Ис. 6 :1 ).

http://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Dmitrij_Rostovskij/simfonija-po-tvorenijam-svjatitelja-dimitrija-rostovskogo/80

Offline biro

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #257 on: May 26, 2016, 02:02:09 AM »
I'd like to have so many Patristic texts handy for any given subject like Cyprian700 or some posters who got inactive, it's like a superpower.

Behold, Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V.

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #258 on: May 26, 2016, 12:49:18 PM »
It's awfully hard to find unknown Patristic texts by particular subjects on Google, CCEL, New Advent or whatever, though. Some foreknowledge, at least superficial, is needed (unless he's taking it all from essays of skilled scholars).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 12:53:39 PM by RaphaCam »
Only-begotten Son and Logos of God, being immortal, you condescended for our salvation to take flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and, without change, became man. Christ, our God, you were crucified and conquered death by death. Being one with the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit: save us.

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #259 on: May 26, 2016, 12:53:06 PM »
Debates have been raging about this topic for a while (both on and offline) so the homework has been done already.

Offline Alkis

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #260 on: May 26, 2016, 01:02:29 PM »
Yes but Daniel saw just a vision. Visions have many symbolisms. Jesus said that no one has seen the Father except me. So how we dare to depict Him? Holy Spirit had be seen as a dove only in the baptism of Jesus. In Pentecost it came in the form of flames. So? Why we have to choose to draw them as an elder or a dove? These are just symbolisms. The only Person of Holy Trinity people have ever seen is Jesus Christ.
For You light my lamp; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #261 on: May 26, 2016, 01:15:18 PM »
So do you think Theophany icons are heretical as well?

I don't think endorsement of icons of the Father as Ancient of Days indicates conflating the symbol with some definitive representation of the Father himself.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 01:16:45 PM by Iconodule »

Offline Alkis

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #262 on: May 26, 2016, 01:17:59 PM »
So do you think Theophany icons are heretical as well?

No. Because it was what people saw. Me, personally, I don't have a problem with icons with Holy Trinity. But I try to follow what Bible says and what some of the Fathers like John the Damascene said as I mentioned.
For You light my lamp; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #263 on: May 26, 2016, 01:27:13 PM »
Sure. Representations of the Father as Ancient of Days and the Spirit as a dove should not be taken as statements that they were incarnate in these forms. I don't think anyone claims that the Father is actually in the form of an old man. But if we can accept that the visions revealed to prophets can be depicted, then there is nothing wrong with these images.

Offline Alkis

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #264 on: May 26, 2016, 01:36:19 PM »
Sure. Representations of the Father as Ancient of Days and the Spirit as a dove should not be taken as statements that they were incarnate in these forms. I don't think anyone claims that the Father is actually in the form of an old man. But if we can accept that the visions revealed to prophets can be depicted, then there is nothing wrong with these images.

Hmmm I think I agree with your statement. I have just said what I have taught about this. That we can only depict the visible. I am sure that the depiction of Ancient of Days is not heretical because it is a vision both in Daniel and in Revelation so it has a meaning... As saint Athanasius said "Ancient of Days became a child". I know that we can have as an icon of Holy Trinity the hospitality of Abraham with 3 angels (Triune God appeared in the form of 3 angels to Abraham).  Some theologians in Greece say that icons of an elder, Christ and a dove is an influence from West.
For You light my lamp; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #265 on: May 26, 2016, 01:41:08 PM »
  Some theologians in Greece say that icons of an elder, Christ and a dove is an influence from West.

I would be interested to see if they have any evidence for this claim. When one encounters something in Orthodoxy that makes him uncomfortable, saying, "It must have come from the West" is the easy way to resolve it.

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #266 on: May 26, 2016, 01:44:28 PM »
  Some theologians in Greece say that icons of an elder, Christ and a dove is an influence from West.

I would be interested to see if they have any evidence for this claim. When one encounters something in Orthodoxy that makes him uncomfortable, saying, "It must have come from the West" is the easy way to resolve it.

Maybe you are right. I don't know what to believe. I am just searching for good sources to learn about our faith. Me, personally to avoid something bad in this matter I just use an icon of Christ and that's all.
For You light my lamp; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #267 on: May 26, 2016, 01:50:27 PM »
That's fine. Just don't jump to conclusions that churches that have this image are heretical.

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #268 on: May 26, 2016, 02:00:18 PM »
The icons of Theophany are surely not from the West. Maybe the extention of representing the Holy Spirit as a dove can be Western influence, IDK, but we always had this symbol.

Also, there must be fathers saying the Ancient of Days was the Son, can anyone tell? I don't have Patristic commentaries on Daniel handy, maybe someone with the OSB could see. But the 1667 Synod can't have simply invented this interpretation (which I had read and heard homogeneously before this topic).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:03:08 PM by RaphaCam »
Only-begotten Son and Logos of God, being immortal, you condescended for our salvation to take flesh from the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and, without change, became man. Christ, our God, you were crucified and conquered death by death. Being one with the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit: save us.

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Re: God the Father in Iconography
« Reply #269 on: May 26, 2016, 02:04:34 PM »
The icons of Theophany are surely not from the West. Maybe the extention of representing the Holy Spirit as a dove can be Western influence, IDK, but we always had this symbol.

Also, there must be fathers saying the Ancient of Days was the Son, can anyone tell? I don't have Patristic commentaries on Daniel handy, maybe someone with the OSB could see. But the 1667 Synod can't have simply invented this interpretation (which I had read and heard homogeneously before this topic).

Some Fathers refer to Christ as Ancient of Days, but not in the context of Daniel's vision. In that vision, if Christ is the Ancient of Days, then who is the Son of Man?

It wouldn't be the only thing the 1667 synod was wrong about.