Author Topic: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?  (Read 3478 times)

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Offline Carole

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"Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« on: November 06, 2006, 04:29:56 PM »
I am a convert from Lutheran Protestantism to the Roman Catholic Church. Quite by accident I found Eastern Catholicism, which prompted me to ask deeper questions about the Orthodox and the schism between the East and West.  In the course of learning about the Catholic Church I ran into traditionalist Catholics.  It is, quite honestly, reminiscient of the in-fighting between the various synods of the Lutheran church.

I take no definitive sides in the trad/non-trad in-fighting amongst Catholics.  Though I admit to being saddened by watching it occur.

So I'm wondering ... as I grow in knowledge of Orthodoxy (whether I convert or not) will I find such strident divisions amongst the Orthodox?  Are their groups of self-appointed Orthodoxy experts who will run around calling other Orthodox heretics? Questioning their faith?  Questioning their very Orthodoxy?

I am not running from anything in the Catholic Church.  Yes, there are human things that I am not fond of, but none of these human actions alone would be enough to prompt me to leave the Church.  My questions and promptings to investigte Orthodoxy more fully have more to do with issues of history and theology.  Things I never thought to question before becoming Catholic because I didn't know I needed to question them.  Had I but known as I was preparing to leave the Lutheran communion that one need not be Greek to be Orthodox I may well never have become Catholic.

But I would like to be prepared (to be forewarned is to be forearmed, yes?) if I am going to encounter such a divisive and bitter issue in my research of Orthodoxy.

Thank you.
Carole

Offline aserb

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2006, 04:51:53 PM »
I think you will find these things in every church since we are all human. There are self-appointed experts right here on this web site.  If you are looking for the perfect church you'll never find it.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2006, 05:37:30 PM »
Sadly, like in other churches, there are huge battles in Orthodoxy, especially over such issues as calendars, jurisdiction, and ecumenism.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 05:42:22 PM by lubeltri »

Offline Anastasios

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2006, 07:13:18 PM »
I belong to a Traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction.  Modernism and ecumenism are issues that divide people in all Churches this century--it really is quite an important question for many people from many different backgrounds. So yes, we have this fight in our Church as well.

Coincidentally, I was Lutheran ---> Byzantine Catholic ----> Orthodox.  I've never been happier than since I joined the Orthodox Church.

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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Carole

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2006, 08:04:24 PM »
If you are looking for the perfect church you'll never find it.

I don't recall saying that I am looking for the perfect church.  I was just asking a question.  I am not overly familiar with "real life" Orthodoxy.  Only what I have read in a couple of books.  So I asked a question.  No need to be snarky.
Carole

Offline Carole

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2006, 08:19:22 PM »
I belong to a Traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction.  Modernism and ecumenism are issues that divide people in all Churches this century--it really is quite an important question for many people from many different backgrounds. So yes, we have this fight in our Church as well.

Coincidentally, I was Lutheran ---> Byzantine Catholic ----> Orthodox.  I've never been happier than since I joined the Orthodox Church.

Anastasios

That is an interesting coincidence. 

I'm not trying to insult anyone by asking.  I was just wondering if a similar division existed.  I hope I didn't come across as sounding like a total pain in the neck.
Carole

Offline Anastasios

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2006, 08:30:42 PM »
That is an interesting coincidence. 

I'm not trying to insult anyone by asking.  I was just wondering if a similar division existed.  I hope I didn't come across as sounding like a total pain in the neck.

Nah. I knew what you were getting at. We welcome you to the forum and hope you enjoy your stay. :)
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Offline aserb

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2006, 09:07:00 PM »
Snarky  ;D

I'll have to use that one  8)
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Offline Elisha

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2006, 09:22:03 PM »
I don't recall saying that I am looking for the perfect church.  I was just asking a question.  I am not overly familiar with "real life" Orthodoxy.  Only what I have read in a couple of books.  So I asked a question.  No need to be snarky.

Carole,
That is not EVEN close to snarkiness...and I don't think aserb was trying to be snarky either.  He was just trying dispel any illusions or expectations.  As Anastasios said, welcome to the board.

Offline Elisha

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2006, 09:23:44 PM »
Snarky  ;D

I'll have to use that one  8)

Oh, it's common.  I view it as an....endearing way of saying someone is being flippant, terse or other not completely friendly adjectives.

Offline aserb

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2006, 11:40:58 AM »
Carole:

Don't run away. Those of us who are Orthodox are still discovering more about it. Join the journey with us! We'll run into some thorny issues and even meet some interesting characters, but in all, despite all of it I am still learning and love the beauty and majesty of the faith. You know at one point I was disillusioned by certain surly and contentious characters in my church, but I believed  that the faith and the church and Christ were bigger than all of the petty BS that sometimes happens. After all it survived for 2,000 and despite many persecutions.

Dan
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Offline Carole

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2006, 12:15:20 PM »
Thanks Dan and Elisha.

I honestly don't have any expectations.  As I said I'm not running away from the Catholic Church and any problems there (I figure anywhere you have people involved you've got problems).  I like to think that I am instead walking toward a fuller understanding of Christianity.  I'm not looking for perfect, not this side of Heaven at any rate. :D

Oddly enough I would likely never have converted to Catholicism if I had had a better understaning of the Orthodox.  I grew up in an area with a large Greek community and I was pretty much convinced that if one was not Greek then being Orthodox was not an option. So I didn't even research the Orthodox.  I took what was presented to me from the Catholic perspective on the Orthodox as the whole story.  I'm learning that it is not and what I am learning is making me uncomfortable with Catholicism.  So I'm slowly learning. 

I appreciate your patience and your willingness to answer questions about your faith.

God Bless,

Carole
Carole

Offline Thomas

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2006, 03:53:35 PM »
Something not addressed here  is the fact that many Orthodox Christians who are in the so called "New Calendarist" jurisdictions see themselves as traditional Orthodox Christians but are not focussed on traditionalism being focussed solely or primarily on the issue of the Old or New Calendar. They observe the fasts and traditions/Traditions of the Church as they understand them.

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Thomas
« Last Edit: November 12, 2006, 06:11:58 PM by Thomas »
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Offline serb1389

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 12:41:22 PM »
Carole,

I think it would be a good thing to do a search on the forum for Tradition or Traditionalism. 

I'm pretty sure this topic has been talked about A LOT on this forum.  Maybe you could start there to get an idea of what people have said, and if you still have questions you can post them here. 

No need to reinvent the wheel. 
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2006, 06:41:45 PM »
Is she converting, or is she just inquiring?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 06:42:17 PM by lubeltri »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2006, 06:45:41 PM »
Is she converting, or is she just inquiring?
Why not ask Carole? How do I know what's in her heart?
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Offline Thomas

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2006, 09:38:11 AM »
Brothers,

Please remember the purpose of the Convert Forum:
The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. "


If this tone continues, we will have to either split or move the topic. Carole's question is appropriate to this forum, the arguements about Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxy belong in the Catholic Orthodox Forum. Please stick to this forum's purpose and  do not hijack Carole's legitimate request for information.

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Thomas
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 01:17:50 PM by Thomas »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2006, 12:50:17 PM »
As per the purpose of the Convert Issues Forum, the debates about whether or not one should go to the EC church - which have no place in the Convert Forum - have been moved to the Orth-Cath section. - Cleveland, GM

edit: corrected spelling of Convert from Covert, added "Issues"
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Offline icxn

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2006, 01:08:20 PM »
So which is it "Covert Forum" or "Convert Forum?" :)

Offline Thomas

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2006, 01:17:23 PM »
Perhaps in Klingon is is the  "Covert" Forum ;) but the English Translation should read, "The Convert Issues Forum" :D  Thanks for the safety net catch!!!

Thomas
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 01:18:14 PM by Thomas »
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Offline hedley

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2006, 06:10:55 PM »

So I'm wondering ... as I grow in knowledge of Orthodoxy (whether I convert or not) will I find such strident divisions amongst the Orthodox?  Are their groups of self-appointed Orthodoxy experts who will run around calling other Orthodox heretics? Questioning their faith?  Questioning their very Orthodoxy?
.

I have been an Orthodox convert  for twenty years, and have yet to hear anyone's Orthodoxy questioned. No doubt the rancorous approach can be found on the net, but I think it  rare in the parishes.

The Second Vatican Council was an odd  business; its aftermath has been dogged by discordance, apostacy and shame.

Offline Punch

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2006, 02:35:57 PM »
That is an interesting coincidence. 

I'm not trying to insult anyone by asking.  I was just wondering if a similar division existed.  I hope I didn't come across as sounding like a total pain in the neck.

Yes these things exist.  I converted from Lutheranism.  My father was a Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor, and was ordained into the ministry during a time that later resulted in the split between the LCMS and what later became the ELCA.  After leaving home, I became a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), and later an elder in that church.  WELS was not in communion with LCMS or ELCA, and LCMS was not in communion with WELS or ELCA.  ELCA I think would commune anything that walked in the door.  We had our reasons, and much of it had to do with us seeing communion as a "Unity of Faith".  Where that does not exist, communing with one another is, at best, hypocritical.

With this background, I was at least somewhat prepared for what I found in the Orthodox Chuch.  I entered into the Antiochian Church, but later joined ROCOR.  The ROCOR priests that I have come in contact with do not spend their time downtalking other jurisdictions, even if they are not in communion with them.  For me it is a simple matter of "Unity of the Faith".  We have not fallen into the issues of ordaining women and marrying homosexuals that plagued the Lutheran Churches (thanks be to God!), but there are major issues (for us) that perhaps make it better and more peacefull to separate.  Do to my own weakness, sinfullness and immaturity, I find the pews, abreviated services and organ, as well as open Freemasonry in some jurisdictions distracting and detrimental to my inner peace.  That is why I am where I am now.  On the other hand, I seriously doubt that I would have made the transition from Wisconsin Synod Lutheran directly to ROCOR.  I thank God for the Antiochian parish that accepted me and the priest of that parish, and consider them fully Orthodox.

What is the point?  Perhaps the point that I am making is that while the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ, it is made up of real and sinfull human beings that often cause illness and disease to that body.  For me, I would rather be in the Body of Christ, regardless of its condition, than in any other body that is apart from Him.  I believe if the divisions and squabbling are viewed in this light, one can overcome them and concentrate on what is REALLY most important, our Salvation from sin and eternal death.
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Offline Isaac

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Re: "Traditionalism" in Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2006, 05:50:55 PM »
Carole,

Lots of issues are being thrown at you and much of it is irrelevant to your search at this point.  I converted to Orthodoxy from a Protestant background, but I also wrestled with the claims of Catholicism.  Let me suggest a great website geared toward inquirers: www.orthodoxinfo.com

One thing that you find about Orthodoxy is that the biggest issues that being debated are, in my view, nowhere near as serious as the issues being debated in Roman Catholicism.  I encourage you to visit a local Orthodox Church to find out what "real life" Orthodoxy is about. 

- isaac