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Author Topic: The Willful Abandonment of Orthodoxy  (Read 11337 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 31, 2006, 01:50:42 PM »

A sagacious fellow in a different thread asked the following

Quote
The fact is many more people become Protestant (and leave Orthodoxy and Catholicism) than go the other direction.  Pentecostals are exploding in terms of numbers in the Global South (read the excellent study by Philip Jenkins on this).  What is it in Protestantism that resonates with these people and where are we failing?  That seems like a worthy question for consideration.

So if we have the right faith, why do people leave for Protestantism?  What do they find there that they do not in Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2006, 03:58:44 PM »

Read my reply to you on Matthew777's thread. Also. I would like to hear from others on this topic. You'll probably get some standard replies that slam Orthodox churches as:

too nationalistic

don't speak enough English

too cold, not friendly

I didn't like the pierogis' or the fact that you sell pierogi's aren't you spiritual?

OK. Now that I got those out of the way let's have some thoughtful replies.
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 04:04:57 PM »

A sagacious fellow in a different thread asked the following

So if we have the right faith, why do people leave for Protestantism?  What do they find there that they do not in Orthodoxy?

Are you certain that the assertion you address is correct?
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 05:43:59 PM »

Are you certain that the assertion you address is correct?

Fairly certain.  In North America I would guess up until the 1980's there was at least a small movement of former Orthodox people in to Protestantism.  Perhaps that has reversed since then.  Personally and anecodotally; I have run across some people who were, or whose families were, at one time Orthodox but became Protestant.

In places like Russia, Ukraine, Romania and Macedonia - I would bet there are significant numbers of Orthodox people who have become Protestant.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 05:44:25 PM by welkodox » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 06:01:11 PM »

I don't think that the cause would be dogma since Orthodox dogma is so much more beautiful than the Protestant one which is actually a gross missrepresentation of Orthodox doctrine. I think what would make Protestantism more attractive would be more so their outward shell. I think a Protestant service would be much easier to follow than an Orthodox one and I honestly do think that language is an issue. Orthodox service is archaic, for some reason it was allowed to develop until a certain period and then became stagnate and while Orthodoxy seems to preach a vibrant doctrine of living tradition liturgia is perhaps one area where such a doctrine would need a bit more implementation. Of course some Protestant services can go overboard, but generally it seems that Protestant services are a lot more vibrant than Orthodox ones while the Orthodox services tends to be a lot more sombre. One service that particularly comes to my mind is the one by Dr Robert Schuller in the Crystal Cathedral, you come away with such a positive feeling after his services.

The same can be related to the preaching message as well where Protestant/Evangelical messages preached can perhaps be more empowering whereas Orthodox messages tend to be more apologetic in their nature, again Robert Schuller and Chuck Swindoll are great examples there.

Another reason as well could be the approach taken by the church, I think Protestant/Evangelical churches to focus more on the social services provided by their church whereas the Orthodox church on liturgia, ritual and worship. The Orthodox church with all its rituals, adornments and clothings can also at times appear quite pompous whereas the Protestant/Evangelical church has a much more simplistic appearance.
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 06:10:54 PM »

Fairly certain.  In North America I would guess up until the 1980's there was at least a small movement of former Orthodox people in to Protestantism.  Perhaps that has reversed since then.  Personally and anecodotally; I have run across some people who were, or whose families were, at one time Orthodox but became Protestant.
Perhaps, but I'm not certain. I do have an entire family here as friends who are of Ukrainian background and are not Lutheran - but when asked they still call themselves Orthodox! Only ones I personally know.
Quote
In places like Russia, Ukraine, Romania and Macedonia - I would bet there are significant numbers of Orthodox people who have become Protestant.
Depending on the definition of 'significant', I might take you up on that bet.

{Edited 'cause spellchecker is gone}
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 06:55:03 PM »

A sagacious fellow in a different thread asked the following

So if we have the right faith, why do people leave for Protestantism?  What do they find there that they do not in Orthodoxy?

Culture and society; many who left Orthodoxy in the past at least would leave for Churches that were more acceptable to mainstream American society and thus provided both a sense of normalcy and social networking opportunities. Then, of course, there were those who left because they moved to a place without an Orthodox Church, yet wanted to either attend Church themselves or raise their children in a Church and thus began attending either a Latin or Anglican Church.
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 08:29:57 PM »

I know many Romanians and some Ukrainians that left the OC for different Protestant sects, mainly Baptist, Pentecostal, Adventist and Jehova's Witnesses. There are even some priests who dis so, but I don't know them personally.
Well, in all of the cases I know of, it's all about  poor choices based on crass ignorance of the orthodox faith , ignorance greatly exploited by various missionaries.
An here you have an example of a Baptist saving the souls of the Orthodox of Romania:
http://missions.blogdrive.com/
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 01:25:37 AM »

Augustin717,
It seems to me that in Ukraine that process was stronger then in Romania. One such person was telling everybody that he did that action because now he is positive in his salvation! He claimed that Orthodox Church teaches that it is too difficult to get saved. My opinion on that line of "thinking" - how stupid!!!

Regarding USA and Canada. I believe that at least since middle 1980's much more people converting to Orthodoxy rather then go in opposite direction(s). On the same token, much more loyalty of those, who grew up in Orthodox faith. Based on GreekIsChirstian's observation, one of the reasons for that - more availability of Orthodox churches combined with acceptance of an idea of visiting / membership at the Orthodox parish with other ethnic roots. The idea of a multi-ethnic mission can be named as the best development of that new approach.

Edited for spelling.
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 01:57:55 PM »

Well, this is not a scholarly assumption, and an assumption it is, but the few people I have seen leaves since my recent conversion to Orthodoxy have been of the types who were never really participating in the parish and were also mixed religious homes. They were either "disillusioned" within the Church and never really cared about what it is that they had. They were blinded by their own ideals and tried to fit the Church in their lives as opposed to trying to fit their lives into the Church.

But I must make this one insert into this topic:
One thing I have noticed in the last ten to fifteen years has been a growth in Orthodoxy which has been a loss of laity but a growth of scholars and thinkers from other groups. One ROman Catholic told me once during coffee that the Orthodox Church is getting the best Roman Catholic and Protestant converts while they keep getting the bad Orthodox laity who make their churches difficult and frustrate the Pastor/Priest.

With this in mind, could it be that God is bringing His people home and separating the fold? This is just a thought and I have nothing to back up my charges, but I thought I would just mention this.

Kyrie Eleison,
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 02:32:03 PM »



My advice to every Orthodox Christian is to first tend to their own flock. Since Orthodoxy's message isn't as simple as the Protestant equal. It makes our job all that much more difficult. There are thousands of cradle Orthodox children being born every year. Hear, are your new converts. Nourish them so they may be greater then yourselves.
  Most people that get into debates with other religions usually are looking for reassurance that there religion is better. 9 times out of 10 you don't convince anyone. But start to doubt yourself. It's usually unhealthy unless your Chrysostom. Protestants are ready for you. They were taught well and have practiced what to say to us for a long time. (Programed) is a better word. It's wiser to concentrate on our own. Since we are losing them to a simple message like (Your saved). Roll Eyes
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2006, 03:57:21 PM »

It sort of bothers me that every Ukranian and Russian I've ever met has been either Baptist or Pentecostal. Are Eastern Europeans leaving the Church in droves?

Peace.
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2006, 04:14:46 PM »

well, as it's been noted the baptists in particular are training missionaries to go into Orthodox countries and convert folks.  They really do program 'us', since that is what I was, to go in and tell everyone how they are so lost and need to "get saved" right away.  There is an urgency involved, the window is closing as governments again become hostile.  You have to remember that baptists are working towards some unseen number they have to reach in order to get the Lord to come back.  so, the more Orthodox that convert the closer we are to His return.  (that being the rapture. they are nevertheless intent on their goal)
There are countless seminaries, private day schools, and protestant universities that are training *programming is a better word by far* these people to go to your door or go overseas.  And they offer a faith that is immediate and intense instead of just eternal and consistent.  Sadly, most of the kids and college students that travel to orthodox countries have no idea that Christianity has already been there far longer than the US has even been a country.  For all their training and learning, they are  very ignorant of history outside of whichever protestant textbook they used.

And Ebor, my family didn't have the wealth afforded to Doc either.  We just floated around it a lot since my father was his chief of security during the heyday of death threats.  While he doesn't get as many of those,  he and the 'theologians' around him all enjoy a well padded lifestyle. Those he spits out of the seminary all intend to reach that same pinnacle.  I would bet that would be the same with someone that has lived in the underbelly of the Crystal Cathedral or Joel Osteen's megachurch atmosphere, rather than Falwell's.  There is an allure to young preachers, and to the faithful to attain this type of high living right here-because surely the Father wants you to be successful, right?

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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 04:15:22 PM »

Quote
It sort of bothers me that every Ukranian and Russian I've ever met has been either Baptist or Pentecostal. Are Eastern Europeans leaving the Church in droves?
Perhaps not in droves, but still there are many that are leaving due to the aggressive Evangelical proselytism in Eastern Europe.
Probably 7 or 8 years ago, while I was still in highschool, in Romania, I once went to hear an American Baptist that came to our town precisely to convert the Orthodox to the Baptist religion.
For entire evening he kept insulting the Orthodox faith of his audience (mainly the baptism of children, the veneration of icons and the Sacrament of Confession).
Then, when the theological arguments were over, I guess, he brought up the economical ones, drawing a comparaison between the economical statues of all Eastern Europe, which is mostly Orthodox, and the economy of the Protestant nations, chiefly the American.
He drew the conclusion that God was angry with the Orthodox religion, since he let all of the Orthodox countries in such an economic hell, but looked favourably upon the Protestant countries, since they were doing so well economically. So, you see how evangelistic crusades are done in Eastern Europe. I've always had the impression that in those Western missionaries' eyes, we, the Eastern Europeans, were some sort of a wild people in need of enlightenment from them, the Western Protestants.
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 04:18:45 PM »

In addition to that, I've heard that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, Protestant missionaries offered U.S. citizenship in exchange for conversion from Orthodoxy.

Peace.
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 05:08:05 PM »

In addition to that, I've heard that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, Protestant missionaries offered U.S. citizenship in exchange for conversion from Orthodoxy.

Peace.

You "heard" this?   Wink

I actually know one of these Baptist "missionaries" to Russia. Just before she left last June I told her my opinion of her efforts. As she is familiar with Orthodoxy (her own son a GO convert) and she stressed that she was going to seek the atheists, I let the conversation drop. (And I am still working on her as well).
Her trip lasted all of 10 days !?!? Including two travel ones. Seemed more of a vacation to me
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 05:26:02 PM »

It sort of bothers me that every Ukranian and Russian I've ever met has been either Baptist or Pentecostal. Are Eastern Europeans leaving the Church in droves?

Peace.

You probably just live near a high concentration of such.  For example, there are a lot of Russian Baptists in the Sacramento area (at least I've been told), but I know where the Slavic Orthodox parishes are in town.  I don't live there though, so the only one I've encountered is a coworker who has family over there.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2006, 12:13:12 AM »

Then, when the theological arguments were over, I guess, he brought up the economical ones, drawing a comparaison between the economical statues of all Eastern Europe, which is mostly Orthodox, and the economy of the Protestant nations, chiefly the American.
He drew the conclusion that God was angry with the Orthodox religion, since he let all of the Orthodox countries in such an economic hell, but looked favourably upon the Protestant countries, since they were doing so well economically. So, you see how evangelistic crusades are done in Eastern Europe. I've always had the impression that in those Western missionaries' eyes, we, the Eastern Europeans, were some sort of a wild people in need of enlightenment from them, the Western Protestants.

That's interesting. I've heard something similar before: Orthodox countries have suffered under Muslim domination and then Communist domination for centuries because God is punishing them for Orthodox heresies.

It reminded me of the Byzantines' explanation for the Islamic conquest of most of Byzantium in the 7th and 8th centuries: God was punishing them for venerating icons (Muslims were iconoclasts). Of course, that was the usual Byzantine response when bad things happened---they looked to see how they were offending God.

Many Evangelicals share that mindset---which is why they believe God has favored America over the years. Thus, to some, the Muslim and Communist domination of Orthodox countries is the result of Orthodox offenses against God.
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2006, 07:21:08 AM »

Chesterton thought the economic disparity was down to the East's failure to absorb St Benedict's view: laborare est orare
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2006, 07:29:34 AM »

Chesterton thought the economic disparity was down to the East's failure to absorb St Benedict's view: laborare est orare
If only the Icon of Sts. Constantine & Helen looked like this:



 Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2006, 12:16:21 PM »


Quote
Many Evangelicals share that mindset---which is why they believe God has favored America over the years. Thus, to some, the Muslim and Communist domination of Orthodox countries is the result of Orthodox offenses against God.
Since they know the Bible so well show them this. John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 12:56:06 PM »

Chesterton thought the economic disparity was down to the East's failure to absorb St Benedict's view: laborare est orare
That's an interesting view as one could say this was precisly the view in the Russian mirs.  Personally, I have always thought that the economic disparity in the EAst had something to do with Godless Communists, taking over the country by force, killing millions of the people and destroying the lives of the people in an attempt to make a move to industrial power.

It doesn't help that countries like Britain or USA avoided helping the east financially due to the fact that it would hurt their margins.
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »

Culture and society; many who left Orthodoxy in the past at least would leave for Churches that were more acceptable to mainstream American society and thus provided both a sense of normalcy and social networking opportunities.

I doubt this is still the case.  Those people today probably end up like Arianna Huffington.   That's not just an Orthodox trend though.  Organized religion has lost its social cachet.
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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2006, 03:13:44 AM »

If only the Icon of Sts. Constantine & Helen looked like this:



 Cheesy

hahahahahaha
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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2006, 08:58:08 AM »

A sagacious fellow in a different thread asked the following

So if we have the right faith, why do people leave for Protestantism?  What do they find there that they do not in Orthodoxy?

As one who is converting from protestantism, maybe I can help.  A lot of it probably has to do with emotional appeal.  Especially with Pentacostalism, everything about it is naked appeal to emotion.  It is also "easier," in that you have the idea of instantaneous salvation, instead of the rightful way of "working out one's salvation with fear and trembling."  Another reason is ignorance among the laity of the faith and the Church herself.  Another reason is the appeal to modern culture.  Many protestant churches have gone contemporary and now use Praise and Worship music.  Knowledge of the old hymns and prayer songs is non-existent, and most don't mind this.  Those are only a few reasons.  They're rediculous.
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2006, 10:01:27 AM »

I'm amazed that nobody seems to have mentioned money yet. In the west this is clearly not the case (here I think some people simply become Protestant for an easy life - little or no ascesis, an assurance of salvation, etc.) but I'm familiar with an awful lot of Pentecostals in Romania and many of them converted in order to get their hands on western aid. They are generally not ex-Orthodox (except nominally) but rather ex-communists, though I have no doubt that there are ex-Orthodox there too. Interestingly, I've seen little to no evidence of the sort of easy life, feel good Protestant groups doing well in rural Bucovina. The Pentecostals, who get the lion's share of all converts to western churches in the region are particularly strict. I have no idea which church they are actually a part of but to give you some idea, they don't drink or smoke, the women always have their hair covered, never have shorter than knee length skirts, they have huge families as they frown seriously on contraception. I wonder if there is something of Orthodox ascesis imprinted on these people even after so long under the communists, such that a religion that really requires nothing of you seems like no religion at all? I've certainly yet to come across a single mainstream Protestant out there.

James

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Just to be clear and so as not to give the wrong impression, I know many of the Pentecostals there because I was working for a Protestant charity when I discovered Orthodoxy - they are actually a pretty tiny, though very visible, minority. There are, however, a few villages where 'economic evangelisation' has made them a majority. Nonetheless, all the Penetecostals in town fit comfortably in their rather modest church on a Sunday whereas it's almost impossible to get into either of the two Orthodox churches even on weekdays and the Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic churches are pretty packed also. I'd hate people to get the impression that Protestant evangelists are winning in the east. Far more are returning to the faith of their forefathers than are leaving.
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2006, 07:43:43 PM »

Quote
Insert Quote
I'm amazed that nobody seems to have mentioned money yet
That's true. I know of a Baptist pastor in Romania who offered "to help" an Orthodox family that was having some economical difficulties a certain time, in exchange for their conversion to "the true faith", i.e. Baptism. What is even sadder, is that some of that family became Baptists.
I don't know, but sometimes, I'd rather have these churches outlawed, seeing how much dishonesty they use to attract converts.
Quote
I wonder if there is something of Orthodox ascesis imprinted on these people even after so long under the communists, such that a religion that really requires nothing of you seems like no religion at all?
I aggree with you. They are even stricter than the Orthodox on  headscarves and other things like these.
A Romanian Orthodox priest called them "just frustrated and disgruntled Orthodox".
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2006, 07:11:52 AM »

I do know that the Protestant/Pentecostal group with which I have been associated is very open and aggressive (at least on the US side) about converting Orthodox in Russia and Romania.  The push for results is made all the more urgent because there is some "prophecy" that the "door in Russia will only remain open for a short time."  I have heard the actual length of time stated that the door will remain open but I cannot recall it at present.
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2006, 07:55:56 PM »

That's true. I know of a Baptist pastor in Romania who offered "to help" an Orthodox family that was having some economical difficulties a certain time, in exchange for their conversion to "the true faith", i.e. Baptism. What is even sadder, is that some of that family became Baptists.
I know such cases in Ukraine. A lot of them. Same tactics!
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2006, 02:32:50 AM »

I know such cases in Ukraine. A lot of them. Same tactics!

Do you actually think these 'conversions' will "take"?

I don't.
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2006, 09:03:59 PM »

You are right! I agree.
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2006, 09:21:04 PM »

On the long run, the harmful effects of these conversions will be, that in certain areas at least, where they are more numerous, the idea that being Romanian/Ukranian/Russian etc equates with being Orthodox will dissappear and so, the Orthodox Church might  experience
serious loss of members  because, frankly, most of the Orthodox Christians (or the Romanians, at least) stay Orthodox not because they are well versed in theology and so they found out that this is the true Church, but because "our ancestors were Orthodox", and "this is our Law" (as the Romanians put it).
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« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2006, 07:37:09 AM »

most of the Orthodox Christians (or the Romanians, at least) stay Orthodox not because they are well versed in theology and so they found out that this is the true Church, but because "our ancestors were Orthodox", and "this is our Law" (as the Romanians put it).
And I'd say this is true of the Greeks, the Russians, the Serbians etc. Nor do I think it is a bad thing. I've yet to come accross a Saint who became a Saint simply because they were well versed in theology; yet I know of countless Saints who became Saints because they refused to give up the Faith of their Fathers.
"Ο των πατέρων ημών, Θεός ευλογητός εί!"
"O the God of our Fathers, blessed are You!"
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« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2006, 05:07:49 PM »

I'm amazed that nobody seems to have mentioned money yet. In the west this is clearly not the case (here I think some people simply become Protestant for an easy life - little or no ascesis, an assurance of salvation, etc.) but I'm familiar with an awful lot of Pentecostals in Romania and many of them converted in order to get their hands on western aid. They are generally not ex-Orthodox (except nominally) but rather ex-communists, though I have no doubt that there are ex-Orthodox there too. Interestingly, I've seen little to no evidence of the sort of easy life, feel good Protestant groups doing well in rural Bucovina. The Pentecostals, who get the lion's share of all converts to western churches in the region are particularly strict. I have no idea which church they are actually a part of but to give you some idea, they don't drink or smoke, the women always have their hair covered, never have shorter than knee length skirts, they have huge families as they frown seriously on contraception. I wonder if there is something of Orthodox ascesis imprinted on these people even after so long under the communists, such that a religion that really requires nothing of you seems like no religion at all? I've certainly yet to come across a single mainstream Protestant out there.

James

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Just to be clear and so as not to give the wrong impression, I know many of the Pentecostals there because I was working for a Protestant charity when I discovered Orthodoxy - they are actually a pretty tiny, though very visible, minority. There are, however, a few villages where 'economic evangelisation' has made them a majority. Nonetheless, all the Penetecostals in town fit comfortably in their rather modest church on a Sunday whereas it's almost impossible to get into either of the two Orthodox churches even on weekdays and the Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic churches are pretty packed also. I'd hate people to get the impression that Protestant evangelists are winning in the east. Far more are returning to the faith of their forefathers than are leaving.
Did you know that alot of these Penecostal groups are not Christian? Alot of them, especially those related to the United Pentecostal Church do NOT believe in the Trinity but rather subscribe to a sort of modalism.
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« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2006, 12:40:46 PM »

falafel333 wrote:  "Orthodox service is archaic, for some reason it was allowed to develop until a certain period and then became stagnate and while Orthodoxy seems to preach a vibrant doctrine of living tradition liturgia is perhaps one area where such a doctrine would need a bit more implementation. Of course some Protestant services can go overboard, but generally it seems that Protestant services are a lot more vibrant than Orthodox ones while the Orthodox services tends to be a lot more sombre."

As a former Protestant and protestant minister, I humbly take issue with the above statement.  Let me explain.

First of all, Orthodox liturgy is anything but "stagnate"!  Of all of the types services, as a Protestant, either participated in as a layman or as a "minister", none can compare with the beauty, thoroughness and depth of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy!  Nothing comes close.  One of the things that drew me to the Orthodox Church was the depth and reverence of the Liturgy.  The more I was exposed to Orthodox (true and pure) worship, the more dissatisfied I became with Protestant attempts to create the "perfect" worship service.  It is shameful for an Orthodox Christian to even think that the Protestant worship services are superior to the worship of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church!  Protestant worship, in many of todays modern "churches" may be very entertaining, and this might be why many people like it.  Protestant worship may appeal to the emotions more than they actually should (Orthodox worship is emotional, too, but kept in balance.) and this probably appeals to many people.  There may be a dozen other reasons why many people prefer to go to a Protestant worship service (perhaps pews so that they can "chill"Huh??), but their attempts at worship are definately inferior to the worship of the Church.

As for our worship being "sombre", allow me a brief comment.  Sometimes our worship of God needs to be sombre.  However, there are many celebrations going on in our worship, as well.  Perhaps we all need to heed the call of the priests:  "Let us be attentive", and we will see the beauty of our wonderful and God-given Divine Liturgy!
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« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2006, 08:06:38 PM »

Quote
As a former Protestant and protestant minister, I humbly take issue with the above statement.  Let me explain.

I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I agree wholeheartedly that Orthodox worship can be beautiful. However, the problem that I have is the refusal for growth and development in the liturgy that our forefathers would have expressed. I'm sure that our forefathers would have developed liturgia in a way that addressed the needs of the people of their times and would have incorporated elements of the cultural music, language, style, aesthetics, structure and so on of their times. Sometimes I wonder if a St Basil, St Gregory, St James or St John Chrysostom would compose a liturgy for our times what it would look like.
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« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2006, 08:56:07 PM »

I'm sure it would reflect our reality today - it'd be super complex, and require an army of acolytes to do.  It'd be like the Presider and his army would flood the congregation during the Great Entrance.  My oh my!
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« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2006, 09:06:32 PM »

falafel333 wrote, "I'm sure that our forefathers would have developed liturgia in a way that addressed the needs of the people of their times . . . "

My dear brother or sister (sorry, I'm not sure if you are male or female), the liturgy that we now have is timeless and addresses the needs of every people of every place and every culture in every time.  Please don't take the liturgy for granted.  Its beauty and depth and richness are unsurpassed on this earth. 

As far as the times, let me say that the music has changed from place to place and from time to time.  If you don't believe me, go to a Greek church one Sunday and a Russian on the next!  No, we don't have any rock and roll, "praise bands", but do we really want to trivialize the text by setting it to pop music?  No way do I ever, ever want to see that happen!  The music can change, but it still must represent a reverence and it must point us to God, not give us a fun-time, emotional ride.  If our emotions are lifted because it points us to God, then wonderful!  Thank God for it.  But, if the music is simply used to manipulate our emotions, then it has not place in the liturgy.  Heck, I can get emotional over a Barry Manilow song, but that does not constitue worship!

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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2006, 11:57:07 AM »

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« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2006, 01:53:57 PM »

I'm glad we've kept worshiping the Lord as the primary focus of the Liturgy. If you want entertainment, check out satellite dish TV or some such thing.
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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2006, 06:28:03 PM »

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the liturgy that we now have is timeless and addresses the needs of every people of every place and every culture in every time.

I'm not quite sure how you came to this conclusion...A good research of liturgia will identify that it largely addressed the needs of the people of the time. Liturgia tends to address especially dogmatic concerns and therefore you will find that a large focus is given to the Trinitiarian and Christological issues surrounding the times of the composers. You will also find that liturgia can be very different depending on the area in which the composer originates from. Therefore, not all Orthodox churches use the same liturgia, not all the same music, not all the same text, not all the same structure and so on. Furthermore, liturgia developed over time and was not simply provided as a one size fits all package for all time, handed down by Christ or the apostles--Over a long period of time the church permitted music to be developed, prayers composed, rituals formed and so forth...My only dilemma is that if all of this was allowed throughout history there is no time when we need it more than today. I'm not talking about an over-exaggerated, people-falling over their chairs and drunk in the Spirit Pentecostal service nor am I talking about simply cancelling or getting rid of Orthodox services but simply one that may even identify the best practices of other church and take what is acceptable to Orthodoxy and can help more identify with the needs of people today...I'm talking about knowing that there can be good everywhere and learning and benefiting from all.
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2006, 06:35:49 PM »

Like what are you implying be added to the liturgical services?
As far as I have attended the Divine Liturgy, I have wept and "danced" in joy most every service I have experienced. The needs of the people is the Mystery of Christ which is already there. What more is needed?

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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2006, 06:52:32 PM »

I think we should maximise congregational participation in the liturgy...In many churches this can be very low and it's almost like the congregation is in a theatre to watch the priest or choir perform.

According to a recent survey 27 per cent of U.S. male college students believe life is a meaningless existential hell. This is what I think liturgical texts should try to address.

Also what develoments in music and so forth have occurred that can be used in church...there is much beautiful music that the church does not use because of its regimented ways.

I'm sure we could address many similar issues in icons, vestments, symbols and so on...
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2006, 08:17:29 PM »

falafel,

Your suggestions/thoughts have already been enacted/tried in the Roman Church and how did it improve and in what condition are they in now ?

These are very progressive ideas...

james



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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2006, 08:26:35 PM »

I'm not sure what precisely has been enacted in the Catholic church or the results that it was able to produce...
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« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2006, 08:51:21 PM »

Well, liturgical development SHOULD occur. It is a living tradition and should not be ossified. There should be rules on it, among them that the development be organic. Beware liturgists who want to inflict their pet theories on the rest of us. But no liturgy can be frozen in time.
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« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2006, 02:05:16 PM »

from falafel yesterday...

"I'm not sure what precisely has been enacted in the Catholic church or the results that it was able to produce"

If you are truly without any knowledge(which I doubt)...then I would suggest a little research is needed.

james
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« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2006, 01:38:35 AM »

Quote
If you are truly without any knowledge(which I doubt)...then I would suggest a little research is needed.

What I'm referring to is your implications within the context of our discussion...That is what precisely, in terms of liturgical reformations, are you referring to and how really is it possible to measure the result of any specific reformation, as good or bad, especially in light of the broader practises of the church and the dramatically changing cultural tide. One of the reformations was the introduction of the vernacular into the liturgy who would say that this is bad, a practise Orthodox churches have been doing for a long time. Have Catholics decided to apostasise once they started hearing the liturgy in their own tongue...I think with Catholics the issue is more of a pastoral one and perhaps dogmatic rather than liturgical...

Personally, I believe that the single most destructive policy of the Catholic church was the mandatory introduction of the celibate priesthood. How can a church thrive without a priesthood, without servants, without those who will preach and lead? I think if anything such a mandatory policy has caused immense havoc to the Catholic church, nothing to do with liturgical reforms, although of course you will always find your traditionalist detractors.
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« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2006, 02:26:15 AM »


Personally, I believe that the single most destructive policy of the Catholic church was the mandatory introduction of the celibate priesthood. How can a church thrive without a priesthood, without servants, without those who will preach and lead?

It took a millennium for the policy's consequences to take hold? That's quite a delayed effect!

(incidentally, worldwide vocations are on the rise)
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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2006, 03:15:55 AM »

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It took a millennium for the policy's consequences to take hold? That's quite a delayed effect!

That's not true at all...The Protestant reformers of the middle ages also cited the increased sexual misconduct amongst the clergy as a direct result of the policy of mandatory celibacy in the priesthood...
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« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2006, 03:26:38 AM »

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(incidentally, worldwide vocations are on the rise)

Here are some interesting statistics...Clearly, the western world, represented by the US would indicate a decline in priesthood in the Catholic church. And it is in my opinion that the same trend would extend to the rest of the world in our globalised era and as the entire world becomes more westernised:

http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm
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« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2006, 04:04:56 AM »

That's not true at all...The Protestant reformers of the middle ages also cited the increased sexual misconduct amongst the clergy as a direct result of the policy of mandatory celibacy in the priesthood...

Your argument was that the celibacy rule caused priest shortages. That is without support. Now it seems you have switched to the other old standby, that priestly celibacy has caused increased sexual misconduct. An examination of non-celibate ministries in other churches and of society in general will reveal that sexual misconduct is no more common among the celibate priesthood than it is anywhere else. Having a wife does not cure sexual sickness.

(MTA: This has already been discussed to death on other threads, but I could not let that popular myth pass unanswered. I will say no more. But if you desire more information, type "celibacy" in the search box and you will find plenty.)

Many blessings.
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« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2006, 08:13:12 AM »

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Your argument was that the celibacy rule caused priest shortages. That is without support.

I'm really not sure how simply logically that would not be evident...Wouldn't it make sense that you would have more priests if you had a larger pool to select from? And if this is not the cause of the shortage then what is, considering the increase in Catholic parishioners?

Quote
An examination of non-celibate ministries in other churches and of society in general will reveal that sexual misconduct is no more common among the celibate priesthood than it is anywhere else.

This may be the case but is that a high enough standard for the church and how does it compare to married clergy...I would assume that a married man would be safer from sexual temptation than an unmarried man living in a highly sexualised western society.

Quote
Having a wife does not cure sexual sickness.

This may be the case but imposing a policy which is contrary to the healthy natural function of man may indeed increase the likelihood of sexual sickness.

"I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Cor 7:8, 9)
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« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2006, 08:55:18 AM »

Wouldn't it make sense that you would have more priests if you had a larger pool to select from? And if this is not the cause of the shortage then what is, considering the increase in Catholic parishioners?
It makes no sense to blame celibacy for the shortage of Roman Catholic Priests because sacerdotal celibacy has been a policy of the Roman Catholic Church for centuries, and it wasn't a problem before. The shortage of vocations has only been a problem in the RCC since Vatican II- which, by the way, introduced the kind of Liturgical innovations you stated that you would like to see in the Orthodox Church- changing the Liturgical texts, changing the hymnography, the use of vernacular etc.....

I would assume that a married man would be safer from sexual temptation than an unmarried man living in a highly sexualised western society.....imposing a policy which is contrary to the healthy natural function of man may indeed increase the likelihood of sexual sickness.
You may be surprised to know that most pedophiles are actually married males. If we use your logic, then we can reduce pedophilia by banning marriage!  And if marraige is so "safe", why is there a Commandment of the Decalogue specifically about adultery?

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« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2006, 09:55:00 AM »

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The shortage of vocations has only been a problem in the RCC since Vatican II

How exactly does Vatican II affect priest shortages if parishioners are increasing...And what exactly in Vatican II are you suggesting would have caused such a result?

Quote
You may be surprised to know that most pedophiles are actually married males. If we use your logic, then we can reduce pedophilia by banning marriage!

I would love to see your stats...Plus my real comparison is married clergy to celibate clergy...

Quote
And if marraige is so "safe", why is there a Commandment of the Decalogue specifically about adultery?

Well, it is St Paul, in the quote given that gives marriage as the safest bet to sexual purity for those driven by passion and not myself.

Adultery is mentioned in the Decalogue as a broader title for many sexual sins and so our Lord Christ when He refers to this sin refers to those married and unmarried. Adultery is specifically mentioned to bring one's attention to the special sanctity and mystery of marriage. It has nothing to do with marriage being safe or unsafe. Or are you suggesting here that it was mentioned because marriage was less safe than celibacy?

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« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2006, 10:53:17 AM »

...I would assume that a married man would be safer from sexual temptation than an unmarried man living in a highly sexualised western society.


Speaking as a married man who is also a priest---this is a very naive statement. I am sure you did not mean this in such a way, but we live in such a sexualised society that women openly approach men for liasons, and even target married men because the women plan that the married man will be very discrete about the dalliance, so as not to undergo a divorce.

Of course, the targeted man often knows the situation, and since it is understood that the dalliance will be on the 'down low', he gives in to temptation and betrays his wife. Therefore, being married is not an extra aid to resisting temptation.

And women are not the only folks seducing others---I do not want my statement misinterpreted as such. It's just that the assertion was that marriage helps men resist temptation, which is not correct.

I only wish we had more people as innocent as Falafel, and that his statement would actually describe the way things are.
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« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2006, 02:35:53 PM »

And if this is not the cause of the shortage then what is, considering the increase in Catholic parishioners?

Decadent Western culture and the "Spirit of Vatican II," which permeated so many in the Church beginning in the 1960s. So many seminaries were hotbeds of it, and so many liberal vocations directors and others actively discouraged and inhibited orthodox men from passing through their seminaries. Obviously, a climate of dissent and rampant homosexuality and a spirit of self-fulfillment (as required by modern psychology) instead of self-sacrifice also reduced the appeal of the priesthood. As the situation has gradually improved in recent years, it is clear that dioceses known for their orthodoxy have booming vocations while dioceses more focused on social work than authentic Catholicism continue to experience emptying seminaries. After wall, why go to the "Pink Palace" (St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore) when you can go to Mount St. Mary's (in Emmittsburg, MD), where your passion for service in the Church's divine mission will be nurtured instead of suffocated?

Sadly, vocations are a serious problem in other churches, as well, including among mainline Protestant denominations (which open their ministry even to women) and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

Too many American Christians, unfortunately, live lives indistinct from other Americans. In such a culture, there are never enough people entering service-oriented careers like teaching and social work and the priesthood.
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« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2006, 02:54:19 PM »

This may be the case but is that a high enough standard for the church and how does it compare to married clergy...I would assume that a married man would be safer from sexual temptation than an unmarried man living in a highly sexualised western society.

This may be the case but imposing a policy which is contrary to the healthy natural function of man may indeed increase the likelihood of sexual sickness.

Married clergy are just as susceptible to sexual abuse as unmarried clergy---which, fortunately, isn't great when compared to public school teachers, for example.

You are claiming that celibacy is "contrary to the healthy natural function of man"? How about bishops in the Orthodox Church or religious brothers and sisters in both East and West? Celibacy has always had a place in Christianity, beginning with John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with married clergy (a married Anglican priest played an instrumental role in my conversion to Christ, and he remains a beloved spiritual father and confessor of mine), but celibacy is also a valued tradition, among whose enthusiastic advocates was St. Paul.

Unfortunately, as Ted Haggard now knows, marriage does not prevent sickness.

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« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2006, 04:32:56 PM »

I would love to see your stats...

“Sexual abuse is a syndrome acquired early in life and has nothing to do with celibacy. Most pedophiles are married men.”
-From “Priests- A Calling in Crisis”.
http://americamagazine.org/BookReview.cfm?articleTypeID=31&textID=3534&issueID=480

“Most pedophiles are married men; being a priest doesn't make a man a pedophile, but the priesthood as a trusted profession that can give access to children, may attract those with such an inclination.”
-Interview with Peter Kearney
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/interviews/2002/2924peter_kearney.html

"Moreover, most pedophiles are married men. I think there's an assault on celibacy that's not fair."
-Andrew Greeley
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_omalley/20040427.html

“Psychologists tell us that most pedophiles are married, heterosexual men, even the ones who target young boys.”
-Anne Strieber
http://www.unknowncountry.com/diary/?id=96

“All crime watch organizations report that 85-99% of most pedophiles are middle to upper classed, married, heterosexual men who rarely even visit churches and routinely molest their own daughters and nieces.”
http://www.geocities.com/ambwww/priests.htm




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« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2006, 06:24:44 PM »

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Therefore, being married is not an extra aid to resisting temptation...It's just that the assertion was that marriage helps men resist temptation, which is not correct.

According to my understanding that's the Biblical assertion. I never stated that marriage would eliminate sexual temptation or even perversion but rather it would provide a safe outlet for the release of an individual's sexual energy as opposed to a person who does not have a permanent or regular sexual partner and may look for any means to gratify their sexual cravings. It is so simply obvious to me that it would be a safer bet. I would agree though that marriage is not meant to heal sexual perversion but I believe it can prevent it from developing in the first place if there is a healthy outlet for sexual energy and it is not repressed in an unhealthy manner.

Quote
Decadent Western culture and the "Spirit of Vatican II," which permeated so many in the Church beginning in the 1960s. So many seminaries were hotbeds of it, and so many liberal vocations directors and others actively discouraged and inhibited orthodox men from passing through their seminaries. Obviously, a climate of dissent and rampant homosexuality and a spirit of self-fulfillment (as required by modern psychology) instead of self-sacrifice also reduced the appeal of the priesthood. As the situation has gradually improved in recent years, it is clear that dioceses known for their orthodoxy have booming vocations while dioceses more focused on social work than authentic Catholicism continue to experience emptying seminaries. After wall, why go to the "Pink Palace" (St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore) when you can go to Mount St. Mary's (in Emmittsburg, MD), where your passion for service in the Church's divine mission will be nurtured instead of suffocated?

I really think you're just fishing here...That sounds like one individual's running commentary on the issue rather than concrete evidence linking the two...Plus if what you say is really the case then why hasn't a priest shortage coincided with a parishioner decline. Why has Vatican II affected priests but not parishioners. I'm sorry but I don't think that makes any sense at all.

Quote
Married clergy are just as susceptible to sexual abuse as unmarried clergy

What's your authority for such a statement? If you could undeniably prove that to me then I would lay down the gauntlet as that for me would be the ultimate argument. But such has not been definitively reflected here.

Quote
You are claiming that celibacy is "contrary to the healthy natural function of man"?

I never said that in the given context. What I'm stating is that imposing celibacy on an individual can result in an unhealthy form of sexual repression.

Quote
“Sexual abuse is a syndrome acquired early in life and has nothing to do with celibacy. Most pedophiles are married men.”

Thanks ozgeorge for the quotes and stats but again I'm really comparing married clergy to celibate clergy.
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« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2006, 07:31:27 PM »


I never said that in the given context. What I'm stating is that imposing celibacy on an individual can result in an unhealthy form of sexual repression.

It is not imposed. People do not discern vocations without knowing that such a vocation in the Latin tradition includes the charism of celibacy. The only generation that thought differently was in the 1960s-1970s, because they in their quest for "self-fulfillment" expected that modernism would destroy all the "oppressive" and "patriarchal" traditions in the Church and that priestly celibacy would be the first to go. Well, that did not happen---the "Spirit of Vatican II" was stopped in its tracks before it completely overwhelmed the Church in the West.


If you still think, despite the lack of any evidence, that the centuries-old tradition of priestly celibacy caused the current priest shortages and sex abuse scandals, read these books:

http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Good-Men-Generations-Priesthood/dp/0967637112

http://www.amazon.com/Pedophiles-Priests-Anatomy-Contemporary-Crisis/dp/0195145976/sr=8-1/qid=1164237403/ref=sr_1_1/102-2017567-0473742?ie=UTF8&s=books

The assertions you make are urban myths commonly promoted by anti-Catholic polemicists (chief among them, anti-Catholic "progressive" Catholics) and cheerfully reported by the secular media.
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« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2006, 12:21:04 AM »

the liturgy that we now have is timeless and addresses the needs of every people of every place and every culture in every time.

I'm sorry.  I mean no offense here, but that is your personal subjective opinion.  I for one, do not find the EO liturgy to 'address my needs'.  And if it were for every culture and every time why did other liturgies exist?  They did even before 1054. 

You like it. You find it helpful to worship. Others do not. Recall that even now there are Western Rite parishes in some EO jurisdictions. 

Quote
As far as the times, let me say that the music has changed from place to place and from time to time.  If you don't believe me, go to a Greek church one Sunday and a Russian on the next!  No, we don't have any rock and roll, "praise bands", but do we really want to trivialize the text by setting it to pop music?  No way do I ever, ever want to see that happen!  The music can change, but it still must represent a reverence and it must point us to God

And what if a music that does nothing for one person or that they actively dislike *does* point someone else to God?  No one human being is the Rule for all of humanity in matters of taste and what touches them deeply.

Again, I do not intend any offense in my observations

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2006, 12:39:05 AM »

Just to introduce another idea about how people might leave EO (or any other Church for that matter.)  What if they moved to a place where there was no EO parish? How about it was an area being newly settled and over time, other Churches came, but not the one that they or maybe their parents or grandparents (if they've been in the new place for some years) had known back East/in Europe/in the Old Country?  What if they were the only family of EO extraction for hundreds of miles? Not enough concentration of one particular Church so support a parish and travel is difficult or long?

I'm drawing these ideas from the settlement and immigration to the American West and thinking specifically of Montana.  There were enough miners from Eastern Europe that came to Butte (Anaconda Copper and the "Copper Kings") that there has been a Serbian EO church there for a good while.  I don't know when the Greek Orthodox parish in Great Falls was started, but it was there 40 years ago and more.  There are a few others, but all in the big towns like Billings and Missoula. Last I saw there were 6 for the entire state.  So maybe it wasn't so much "willful abandonment" as there wasn't any.

Ebor
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« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2006, 01:14:15 AM »

If we have no Orthodox church within our reach, I suppose we should stay home and pray there and, by no means, go to any other churches.
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« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2006, 04:33:28 AM »

If we have no Orthodox church within our reach, I suppose we should stay home and pray there and, by no means, go to any other churches.

Yep. My supposition as well.
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« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2006, 04:56:49 AM »

Yep. My supposition as well.

And mine. Although in my case it isn't supposition. I spent about a year in exactly that position and not once was I tempted to attend either the Anglican or Roman Catholic churches that were reachable. For me it's decidedly Orthodox or nothing.

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« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2006, 05:02:40 AM »

For me, that situation is what the Reader's Service/Typika is for; make an "icon corner".
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« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2006, 02:15:56 PM »

Quote
It is not imposed. People do not discern vocations without knowing that such a vocation in the Latin tradition includes the charism of celibacy.

For centuries the vocations of priesthood and celibacy have been two separate charisms, apparently the design of God and the early church itself. A point that Orthodoxy would argue for vigorously. That priesthood and celibacy may be joined or separated with the blessings of God and the church depending on individual charisms. However, when a vocation is imposed where one charism is present while the other is not then this is where an unhealthy form of deviation may manifest itself. Things are not so simple as stated above. Motivations come and go, people experience struggles, people change their mind, people are confident in one area and not so much in another, there are degrees of abilities and so forth...

Quote
The only generation that thought differently was in the 1960s-1970s, because they in their quest for "self-fulfillment" expected that modernism would destroy all the "oppressive" and "patriarchal" traditions in the Church and that priestly celibacy would be the first to go. Well, that did not happen---the "Spirit of Vatican II" was stopped in its tracks before it completely overwhelmed the Church in the West.

Conspiracy theory...The conspiracy theories that are promulgated and spun by anti-Vatican II fundamentalist traditionalists. You keep on speaking about the "Spirit of Vatican II"--what the heck does that mean? Could you please provide me with a single decision of Vatican II that has directly resulted in practical outcomes that have adversely affected the Catholic Church.

Quote
If you still think, despite the lack of any evidence, that the centuries-old tradition of priestly celibacy caused the current priest shortages and sex abuse scandals, read these books:

I would further add that the priest shortage may have been a centuries old problem, when compared to members and converts of the Catholic Church, but one that has become more heightened within recent times.

The priest shortage and sex abuse scandals, in my personal commentary, would reflect a clash of cultures between an extreme conservative celibacy and an increasingly liberal sexualised society.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Vatican II!!!

Quote
The assertions you make are urban myths commonly promoted by anti-Catholic polemicists (chief among them, anti-Catholic "progressive" Catholics) and cheerfully reported by the secular media.

I would have to absolutely disagree my friend but it is rather yourself which has succumbed to Catholic apologetics and seem to have neglected centuries old faithful Orthodox practises. For me it would seem that the Catholic thing to would be to do as it had once done and permit married clergy. From an Orthodox perspective I would see myself as a traditionalist Catholic rather than a progressive one, well especially on this particular issue anyway.

Quote
If we have no Orthodox church within our reach, I suppose we should stay home and pray there and, by no means, go to any other churches.

Personally, if there were no Orthodox church I would attend a Catholic church and if there were no Catholic church then Anglican and if no Anglican I'd probably attend a suitable evangelical church...I simply believe that Christian fellowship is imperative in life...
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« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2006, 04:19:09 PM »

Your posts indicate that you do not seem very informed on the Catholic issues on which you seem so eager to expound. The "Spirit of Vatican II" is not at all an indictment of the Second Vatican Council but of the reinterpretation by progressives that does not at all reflect the letter or spirit of the council documents. The "Spirit of Vatican II" is the phrase invoked so often by Church modernists. I assumed you knew that.

You still have not marshalled one iota of serious evidence supporting your frankly slanderous assertions that priestly celibacy has caused  priest shortages and rampant sexual abuse not seen in other churches. I am amazed at the fixation some non-Catholics have with this Latin-rite discipline, especially since it does not concern them. Perhaps you should aim your attacks on the mandatory celibacy of your own bishops, since you seem to think it is so harmful. Of course, I would defend that tradition too.

I've said on other threads that I would have no problem if Rome made celibacy optional. I'm not some crazy anti-Vatican II traditionalist as you suggest---I believe Vatican II will eventually bear important fruit. However, I do have a problem with dishonest arguments against the celibacy discipline. Read the books I mentioned, by scholars who have extensively investigated these assertions and found them very dubious.

And that is all the time I'm going to waste on this tired question, bizarrely brought up in a thread about people abandoning Orthodoxy for Evangelicalism.
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« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2006, 04:28:53 PM »

... bizarrely brought up in a thread about people abandoning Orthodoxy for Evangelicalism.

Welcome to OC.net!
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« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2006, 09:10:03 PM »

Quote
Your posts indicate that you do not seem very informed on the Catholic issues on which you seem so eager to expound. The "Spirit of Vatican II" is not at all an indictment of the Second Vatican Council but of the reinterpretation by progressives that does not at all reflect the letter or spirit of the council documents. The "Spirit of Vatican II" is the phrase invoked so often by Church modernists. I assumed you knew that.

I am well aware of many Catholic issues my friend and would love to know where you came across such a definition of this phrase or whether this was simply your own assumption. Such a phrase written in the given context would definitely appear to be an indictment on the Second Vatican Council. Such a phrase I assume could be invoked by both those for and against the Second Vatican Council with varying connotations.

Quote
You still have not marshalled one iota of serious evidence supporting your frankly slanderous assertions that priestly celibacy has caused priest shortages and rampant sexual abuse not seen in other churches.

I have never proposed to do so and neither have you provided evidence to the opposite effect. How could you not possibly agree that if the ban on married clergy were lifted the problem with the shortage of priests would not be resolved. That flies in the face of any logic and defies all rationality.

Why you would consider my propositions so slanderous I cannot understand either. What dogma of either church have I slandered. This is a question that is being discussed in all churches, especially the Catholic Church. And the propositions I've put forward with my reasonings are also ones being considered. Would those who are considering such thoughts also be slanderous, there's no need for such exaggeration my friend.

Quote
Perhaps you should aim your attacks on the mandatory celibacy of your own bishops, since you seem to think it is so harmful. Of course, I would defend that tradition too.

Thank you for raising the issue as many well respected Orthodox bishops and theologians have also raised this issue and questioned the development of episcopal celibacy and since it is not an article of faith it may be challenged and reverted in the future. Personally, I would much prefer a married episcopcy rather than a celibate one. It's just that celibates, especially monastics, often seem so removed from the daily struggles of most individuals. And again if the position was open to both celibates and the married then the individual would be selected for that particular charism, one which can very well exist in either a married individual or a celibate one.

Quote
However, I do have a problem with dishonest arguments against the celibacy discipline.

I think I've been very fair...it seems that you are unquestioning of Catholic apologetics. How could you simply make a definitive statement on the issue as factual when it really seems that we yet don't have the science to prove anything either way. We are simply discussing reasons and possibilities my friend, nothing wrong with that.

Quote
Read the books I mentioned, by scholars who have extensively investigated these assertions and found them very dubious.

I'll do my very best...Yet however they already seem to leave many questions unanswered since the data perhaps is simply not available.

Quote
And that is all the time I'm going to waste on this tired question

That's sad as I was quite enjoying the discussion...
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« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2006, 12:40:08 AM »

and, by no means, go to any other churches.

Why Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2006, 07:42:39 PM »

The idea of just staying home and praying if there is no EO church about may be one answer, but what if one lives in such a situation for many years, or that it was ones parents or grandparents who moved to the more isolated area? 

In the course of time, decades perhaps, the family has built up a ranch or farm or become part of the small town and there is no other EO family around.  The children grow up and may fall in love with someone they grew up with, who understands the live of that area but who is not EO.  Or the family is supported by their neighbors or other farm/ranch families and that becomes their community.  Maybe in a time of crisis, it's a local pastor/priest (non-EO) who helps comfort them.  The link to the "old Country" or the older generation's remember Church may become stretched and only a memory.  That is no "willful abandonment" but the drift that I mentioned or just a case of changes due to situation.

Sometimes things happen with no malice or forethought.

Ebor

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« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2006, 10:00:54 PM »

That progressive banner slogan "In the Spirit of Vatican II" makes me sick...

Maybe "they" should join the ECUSA...

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« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2006, 12:46:57 AM »

A sagacious fellow in a different thread asked the following

So if we have the right faith, why do people leave for Protestantism?  What do they find there that they do not in Orthodoxy [or Catholicism]?

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace,

Pardon my 'addition' to your question if it offends.

Upon a short bit of reflection on this question I would say...

An utter lack of pretense and the appearance of 'real' charity, joy and thanksgiving!

Pax
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« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2006, 07:17:11 AM »

That progressive banner slogan "In the Spirit of Vatican II" makes me sick...

Maybe "they" should join the ECUSA...

Maybe they shouldn't. We have enough problems without having a mob of liturgy-hating Vat II-ites dumped on us.
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« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2006, 08:46:52 AM »

It does seem that disobedient Catholics tend to leave for the Episcopal Church. I remember watching Larry King interview Jim McGreevey, the disgraced former New Jersey governor, playing the victim after cheating on his wife with a small army of men. He brought his new male lover to the interview with him and announced that he was now a "practicing Episcopalian." Why did he leave the Catholic Church?

MCGREEVEY: I love my church. I love the traditions. It is what I grew up in. It's what I was, baptized and confirmed. I just can't sit in a pew and listen to someone tell me that, you know, I ought to despise who I am. It is not healthy for me.

KING: That must feel terrible since you believe in the faith, right? It is conflicting.

MCGREEVEY: Yes. It is, for me it is unhealthy.

KING: Did you ever confess to a priest that you were gay?

MCGREEVEY: No. I was afraid to.
 
----

My mouth dropped open. He NEVER confessed his homosexual sins? And he was expecting to get relief? Talk about unhealthy.

So he jumped ship to the Episcopal Church and obviously to a very liberal parish where liturgy is an empty performance, where sin and redemption have been banished.

I feel bad for the orthodox Episcopalians who have to watch their churches absorb the disaffected jetsam of other churches. Their ultra-heterodox new Presiding Bishop, Katherine Jefferts-Schori, is a former Catholic, and "gay" bishop of New Hampshire, Gene Robinson, is a former Disciple of Christ.

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« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2006, 10:32:46 AM »

I don't mind these people coming over, but I do mind that they bring their anger with them. Sinners need church too, not just us.
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« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2006, 11:02:41 AM »

I don't mind these people coming over, but I do mind that they bring their anger with them. Sinners need church too, not just us.


Indeed, Keble. But sinners must first recognize sin. A church that ignores sin and redemption is a church that no sinner needs.
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« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2006, 05:29:44 AM »

Quote
What do they find there that they do not in Orthodoxy?

Well, I went unbeliever rather than Protestant, but as a former Protestant I could think of many reasons. The number one would be, the family/friendly feeling you get in many Protestant (especially Evangelical "Bible Believing") Churches. They make you feel welcome. No old lady looking at you funny because you aren't Greek. No Russian priest chanting in a language that almost no one in the Church fully understands. They make you feel welcome, they make you feel like they actually care about you as a person. Now, doctrinally, Orthodox blows just about every Protestant group away (with the exception of Anglicanism)... but most people can't live on doctrine. It takes a certain kind of cold, intellectual person to thrive on doctrinal purity alone.

And for whatever reason, Orthodox Churches (the ones I've been in anyway) aren't prone to being overly friendly to new people (and that's what's needed: to be overly friendly). Oh sure, they say hello, invite people to eat after service, the priest smiles, etc. But that isn't the type of warmness that Protestants have, that's the type of friendliness that any normal person would have in everyday life, whether they were in Church, at work, or at the grocery store. The Orthodox are largely pleased to sit on the fact that they are the real deal, and ignore that many people don't really care about that if there is no "heart" behind it (as Fr. Seraphim might have said). This approach works fine when the entire culture/nation is Orthodox, simply for lack of an alternative. It will work less and less as times go on though.

I know that people will say "Well we have the truth, that should be enough". Ok. You think that. And your churches will shrink. That's like when I got to atheist boards and say that maybe we should be more civil to Christians, and they say that they have the truth and Christians are deluded, and that people shouldn't decide what is true based on how mean people are. It's complete BS. Would you ignore your wife and then rationalize it by saying that she should know that you really love her? People want to FEEL warmth, it's a psychological need. Teaching about the 7th Ecumenical Council won't keep someone in Church (over the long term). Having people there that they feel are friends will.
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« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2006, 05:38:38 AM »

Asteriktos! I really missed you man!
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« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2006, 11:01:39 AM »

Quote
Now, doctrinally, Orthodox blows just about every Protestant group away (with the exception of Anglicanism)... but most people can't live on doctrine. It takes a certain kind of cold, intellectual person to thrive on doctrinal purity alone.

Sad but so true.

Quote
Teaching about the 7th Ecumenical Council won't keep someone in Church (over the long term). Having people there that they feel are friends will.

I agree, but I also think Orthodox people can be warmer through their theology. This may sound confusing but basic Christianity teaches to love thy neighborr (Parable of the Good Samaritan) and Orthodoxy has many beautiful feasts that can be celebrated by welcoming newcomers.

I have seen this coldness develop in non-Orthodox churches as well. I found that it occurs once a church has been well established and the people grwo comfortable or tired or smug or all.
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« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2006, 01:31:31 PM »

I am not sure about the warmth in protestant circles. I have found it to be quite shallow and superficial.  It's like only the tip of the ice breaks, and at first they seem friendly-then they go back to there seats with their cliques and clubs where newcomers are shut out.  I watched it happen over and over.  If they are warm in the beginning it's to give a good impression, but it's only skin deep.  After a couple of weeks you are told to get up from the pew because its "their" seat.  Got to the point I looked for the little brass plaque saying they bought the pew, and told them I was doing as much.
Okay, so after 30 years I got a little snippy!

I do know a couple that says if they don't like what Fr. says, they will just go to the Episcopal church down the road.  Like it's a threat! So what are those churches filled with?  I know my dh just went up to see the new Thomas Road, and dragged me with him. ( he wanted to see the new architectural overhaul) They really did have a coffee shop and barista's in the lobby!  I about fell over, and i grew up there!  It just keeps getting worse and worse.  they did try to get us to come back... lol!
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« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2006, 08:09:49 PM »

The "spirit of Vatican II" has almost led to the destruction of the Catholic Church. There is a new theology, where all religions are paths to God and anyone can choose to follow whatever one he wants. Conscience is supreme in the New Church. There is a new, Protestantised Liturgy which downplays the doctrine of the Real Presence. Those who want to follow the old faith and attend/celebrate the Traditional Mass are often fiercely persecuted by the modernists of Rome.

And priestly celibacy was only mandated by Pope Benedict VIII in 1139.

I am a former Roman Catholic who is in the process of converting to Orthodoxy. Disgusted with the state of the Vatican II Church, I attended Traditional Masses when I could (they were only twice a month here), but then I came to the Orthodox Church, which has never had a Vatican II or anything like the Roman Church.
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« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2006, 11:05:21 PM »

The "spirit of Vatican II"

...


This is only one piece in the overall picture, but it shows the root which has been identified by truly Traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox and even patriots (patriots: whose reason is preventing the subversion of society in general). That root is the sin of perfidy.

http://www.orthodoxfaith.com/ecumenism_papacy_masonry.html
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« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2006, 11:55:40 PM »

The "spirit of Vatican II" ... a new theology, where all religions are paths to God and anyone can choose to follow whatever one he wants. ....

There is a plan here and it is satan's plan.

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St. Matthew's Gospel 22nd Chapter:
37  Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
38  This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39  And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour a
lubeltri
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« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2006, 12:43:28 AM »

The "spirit of Vatican II" has almost led to the destruction of the Catholic Church. There is a new theology, where all religions are paths to God and anyone can choose to follow whatever one he wants. Conscience is supreme in the New Church. There is a new, Protestantised Liturgy which downplays the doctrine of the Real Presence. Those who want to follow the old faith and attend/celebrate the Traditional Mass are often fiercely persecuted by the modernists of Rome.

And priestly celibacy was only mandated by Pope Benedict VIII in 1139.

I am a former Roman Catholic who is in the process of converting to Orthodoxy. Disgusted with the state of the Vatican II Church, I attended Traditional Masses when I could (they were only twice a month here), but then I came to the Orthodox Church, which has never had a Vatican II or anything like the Roman Church.

The "new theology" of which you speak is not the teaching of the Church. Have you read Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus (2000) or the actual documents of the Second Vatican Council? The teaching of the Church endures, no matter how many bishops or priests fall prey to the new theology. If you look at the remaining proponents of the new theology, they are very upset that their revolution failed. The Church is no closer to changes in dogma or moral teaching, even after the tidal wave of the 1960s and 1970s. The new generation is returning to orthodoxy, and the now aging liberals lament regularly the increasingly conservative state of the Church. The Church continues to grow in the developing world, and the worldwide decline in vocations has been reversed. The Church is more than America, remember.

There is not much wrong with the Novus Ordo when celebrated reverently and according to the rubrics. The poor 1970 translations are now being revised to accurately reflect the Latin text. The Holy Father is fully committed to the Reform of the Reform of the liturgy, and the widespread liturgical abuse of 30 years ago is slowly but steadily abating. The liberal priests and bishops of the immediate post-Vatican II generation are getting old, gradually to be replaced by the more orthodox younger generation. At the same time, there are now four priestly fraternities devoted to the Rite of Pius V. The Vatican is prepared to offer the Society of St. Pius X the status as a personal prelature (only Opus Dei, another vibrantly orthodox movement, has that privileged status) once it is brought into canonical regularity. Benedict XVI is very close to promulgating a motu proprio liberating the classical Rite of Pius V for all, with or without bishop approval.

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The tradition of priestly celibacy goes back far, far longer than 1139. The Synod of Elvira, which predates the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, required clerical celibacy in that region. Celibacy was promoted or required by popes and synods throughout the fourth century and in the centuries after. There was even talk of mandatory celibacy across the entire Church at Nicaea, though most Eastern bishops were not supportive. It is true that it was not enforced across the whole Western church until about a thousand years ago, but then, that is not an argument against it. Doctrine develops, and so do disciplines like celibacy (moreso, in fact). It could change tomorrow.
It took centuries after the apostolic era for mandatory celibacy of bishops in the East to be universally applied. That is also a discipline that could change if an Orthodox church wills it. I don't see how it is related to your other criticisms.

---


As for your third comment about "having a Vatican II," read the Council documents. The Council was not the problem. Blaming the Council for the attempted modernist takeover of the Church is like blaming the airplane because a terrorist turned it into a missile (of course, in this case, the towers did not fall).

Every church has its problems, especially in the decadent and corrosive culture of the developed world, and Orthodoxy is no exception (though most heavily Orthodox countries are not part of the developed world, which I think is a spiritual blessing though not an economic one).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 12:45:37 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2006, 04:48:09 AM »

The "new theology" of which you speak is not the teaching of the Church. Have you read Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus (2000) or the actual documents of the Second Vatican Council? The teaching of the Church endures, no matter how many bishops or priests fall prey to the new theology. If you look at the remaining proponents of the new theology, they are very upset that their revolution failed. The Church is no closer to changes in dogma or moral teaching, even after the tidal wave of the 1960s and 1970s. The new generation is returning to orthodoxy, and the now aging liberals lament regularly the increasingly conservative state of the Church. The Church continues to grow in the developing world, and the worldwide decline in vocations has been reversed. The Church is more than America, remember.

While the Roman Catholic Church has not officially changed their teachings, the "new theology" is rampant everywhere in the Church, especially the pan-heresy of ecumenism. Just because Rome doesn't officially change her teachings doesn't mean that the Church doesn't accept those teachings. Communion in the hand was condemned by Pope Paul VI (but allowed to continue where it had already become an established practice). It had never been an established practice in either the US or New Zealand. So any Catholic in the US or NZ who receives communion in the hand is engaging in a direct act of rebellion against Rome.  It would be rare to find a priest these days (not counting SSPX) who would say that all other religions are wrong, even though that is Catholic (and Orthodox) teaching. Interfaith meetings and ecumenical gatherings are common events now, despite being condemned in the past by Pope Pius XI. Lots of priests in the confessional don't tell people who confess using contraception to stop using it if their conscience isn't saying that it's wrong.

Quote
There is not much wrong with the Novus Ordo when celebrated reverently and according to the rubrics. The poor 1970 translations are now being revised to accurately reflect the Latin text. The Holy Father is fully committed to the Reform of the Reform of the liturgy, and the widespread liturgical abuse of 30 years ago is slowly but steadily abating. The liberal priests and bishops of the immediate post-Vatican II generation are getting old, gradually to be replaced by the more orthodox younger generation. At the same time, there are now four priestly fraternities devoted to the Rite of Pius V. The Vatican is prepared to offer the Society of St. Pius X the status as a personal prelature (only Opus Dei, another vibrantly orthodox movement, has that privileged status) once it is brought into canonical regularity. Benedict XVI is very close to promulgating a motu proprio liberating the classical Rite of Pius V for all, with or without bishop approval.

How often do you ever seen the Novus Ordo celebrated correctly, in accordance with the rubrics? Almost never. How often do you see a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated at the High Altar, with the priest facing Our Lord in the Tabernacle, using incense, a chalice veil, and all the other things that are generally left out? But the fact remains that the Novus Ordo is a Protestantised Mass. It is quite similar to the Anglican service. The Consilium who designed the New Mass left out the same prayers as did Luther, Cranmer, and the other Protestant reformers. All reference to sacrifice has been removed, along with the 'oblation of the victim to God'. The Mass has essentially become a 'celebratory meal'. The priest faces the people across the 'table', because it's rude to celebrate a meal with your back to your guests. The Altar, on which sacrifice is offered, has been replaced with a table, upon which a meal is served. The Tabernacle has been removed from the Altar and often pushed off to the side, in spite of Pope Pius XII saying that "to separate tabernacle and altar is to separate two things that by their nature should remain united". Instead of facing God upon the Altar at Mass, they face a priest. Man has quite literally de-throned God at the New Mass and put himself in His place.

Quote
As for your third comment about "having a Vatican II," read the Council documents. The Council was not the problem. Blaming the Council for the attempted modernist takeover of the Church is like blaming the airplane because a terrorist turned it into a missile (of course, in this case, the towers did not fall).

While to a certain extent you're right, the Council did contain several errors. The first was that of religious liberty. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church had always been that no-one has a right to stop anyone from following the Catholic religion. The idea that man was free to follow any religion he thought was true was expressly condemned by Pope Pius IX in his "Syallabus of Errors". Yet this teaching which had been condemned previously made its way into Vatican II. Other teachings that the Roman Church had previously condemned ended up in Vatican II. For more info on Vatican II, see http://www.sspx-schism.com/Vatican2.htm

« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 04:49:01 AM by MichaelArchangelos » Logged
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« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2006, 01:11:05 PM »

While the Roman Catholic Church has not officially changed their teachings, the "new theology" is rampant everywhere in the Church, especially the pan-heresy of ecumenism. Just because Rome doesn't officially change her teachings doesn't mean that the Church doesn't accept those teachings. Communion in the hand was condemned by Pope Paul VI (but allowed to continue where it had already become an established practice). It had never been an established practice in either the US or New Zealand. So any Catholic in the US or NZ who receives communion in the hand is engaging in a direct act of rebellion against Rome.  It would be rare to find a priest these days (not counting SSPX) who would say that all other religions are wrong, even though that is Catholic (and Orthodox) teaching. Interfaith meetings and ecumenical gatherings are common events now, despite being condemned in the past by Pope Pius XI. Lots of priests in the confessional don't tell people who confess using contraception to stop using it if their conscience isn't saying that it's wrong.

How often do you ever seen the Novus Ordo celebrated correctly, in accordance with the rubrics? Almost never. How often do you see a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated at the High Altar, with the priest facing Our Lord in the Tabernacle, using incense, a chalice veil, and all the other things that are generally left out? But the fact remains that the Novus Ordo is a Protestantised Mass. It is quite similar to the Anglican service. The Consilium who designed the New Mass left out the same prayers as did Luther, Cranmer, and the other Protestant reformers. All reference to sacrifice has been removed, along with the 'oblation of the victim to God'. The Mass has essentially become a 'celebratory meal'. The priest faces the people across the 'table', because it's rude to celebrate a meal with your back to your guests. The Altar, on which sacrifice is offered, has been replaced with a table, upon which a meal is served. The Tabernacle has been removed from the Altar and often pushed off to the side, in spite of Pope Pius XII saying that "to separate tabernacle and altar is to separate two things that by their nature should remain united". Instead of facing God upon the Altar at Mass, they face a priest. Man has quite literally de-throned God at the New Mass and put himself in His place.

While to a certain extent you're right, the Council did contain several errors. The first was that of religious liberty. The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church had always been that no-one has a right to stop anyone from following the Catholic religion. The idea that man was free to follow any religion he thought was true was expressly condemned by Pope Pius IX in his "Syallabus of Errors". Yet this teaching which had been condemned previously made its way into Vatican II. Other teachings that the Roman Church had previously condemned ended up in Vatican II. For more info on Vatican II, see http://www.sspx-schism.com/Vatican2.htm

"Look not on our sins but on the faith of your Church." The faith remains intact, regardless of current practice (which is improving). I suppose you would have jumped ship in the 10th century or the 15th century too? At least today we have a holy pope.

Communion in the hand, which I don't personally do, was practiced in the early Church. I'm not particularly fond of it, but it is the prerogative of our bishops to allow it. You can criticize it as imprudent, but you cannot call it a heresy, as you seem to be saying. It's a PRACTICE. The same could be said of ad populum instead of ad orientum, though I agree with you that the latter is better.

The Novus Ordo, like I said, is not bad if celebrated reverently and according to the rubrics (though I still prefer the old rite as more organic). The problem with the Novus Ordo is that it can be easily abused. It doesn't change Catholic teaching, though it does emphasize the horizontal nature of worship at the expense of the vertical. It is still a holy sacrifice, and it is also a meal. Once again, there are no heresies in the new rite and neither in the Council documents. It's the carrying out of the reforms that has been disastrous---fortunately, things improve with each passing year, and we are farther and farther away from the dark years of the 1970s.

Vatican II vs. Syllabus of Errors on religious freedom? Councils carry more weight than papal encyclicals, in case you've forgotten. Of course, if it's encyclicals you care so much about, read John Paul II's on religious freedom (unless you think he's an imposter pope). God gives us religious freedom, and so should the Church.

I would be careful about using SSPX as your source. They condemn ecumenism, as you do, but they include in their condemnations ecumenism with what they call the "schismatic and heretical Eastern Orthodox," the Church you seem to be joining. They also say that Eastern Catholics who have removed the filioque from their creed are Photian heretics. So it seems strange to me to condemn ecumenism (presumably because you want the Catholic faith to remain pure) but then leave to one of the churches with which the Catholics had the ecumenical relations you condemn.

Best,
Lubeltri
« Last Edit: December 09, 2006, 01:20:43 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #89 on: December 10, 2006, 10:16:13 AM »

I am not sure about the warmth in protestant circles. I have found it to be quite shallow and superficial.  It's like only the tip of the ice breaks, and at first they seem friendly-then they go back to there seats with their cliques and clubs where newcomers are shut out.  I watched it happen over and over.  If they are warm in the beginning it's to give a good impression, but it's only skin deep.  After a couple of weeks you are told to get up from the pew because its "their" seat.  Got to the point I looked for the little brass plaque saying they bought the pew, and told them I was doing as much.
Okay, so after 30 years I got a little snippy!

It is unfortunate that you had such experiences.

Quote
I do know a couple that says if they don't like what Fr. says, they will just go to the Episcopal church down the road.  Like it's a threat! So what are those churches filled with? 

Umm They're filled with other human beings made in the image of God....

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I know my dh just went up to see the new Thomas Road,

Would that be Jerry Falwell's church? I think it's called "Thomas Road Baptist" (It's been a long time since heard him on the radio so I don't remember exactly.)

Ebor
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« Reply #90 on: December 10, 2006, 10:25:29 AM »

This is only one piece in the overall picture, but it shows the root which has been identified by truly Traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox and even patriots (patriots: whose reason is preventing the subversion of society in general). That root is the sin of perfidy.

http://www.orthodoxfaith.com/ecumenism_papacy_masonry.html


I checked this link. It is the same old rehashing of masonry and conspiracy theory and anti-RC and Anti-Jewish drivel that has showed up before and it cites the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which is a lie and a forgery.  (WHERE is that emoticon of banging ones head on a wall or keyboard please??) 

Ebor
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« Reply #91 on: December 10, 2006, 10:32:54 AM »

But the fact remains that the Novus Ordo is a Protestantised Mass. It is quite similar to the Anglican service.

?? In  general the Anglican services of the Eucharist are done better then what you describe... and we sing too.   

 Undecided

Sorry,  I need my coffee maybe

Ebor
« Last Edit: December 10, 2006, 10:34:35 AM by Ebor » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2008, 04:28:51 PM »

I actually knew some Protestant missionaries to Russia who spoke at my old Protestant school. They seemed to have mostly targeted atheists, and even worked with other Orthodox Churches.
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