Author Topic: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?  (Read 753 times)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 02:21:02 PM »
I love Brother Mouzone. I wish he got more screen-time.

You and I really have to grab a coffee and talk TV some day!  ;D

Indeed!
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Agabus

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 02:27:23 PM »
Worth keeping in mind that Mormon doctrine is malleable and can be changed at any time by decree of the Prophet and his apostles. Also, that Mormons tend to be made up largely of converts. Therefore, it's not accurate to say current Mormons believe something from 1860 or 1960. In fact they may never even have heard of an older belief. In 2000, there was a huge push by Mormon leadership to reframe doctrine in more-nearly Evangelical terms. In addition, the denial of some aspects of the past was softened, as church scholars engaged detractors in a bit more moderate fashion. It was around that time Christianity Today began to float the idea that Mormons may be Christians and include editorials by Mormon writers.

Eventually, it's not inconceivable the LDS church could come to resemble the other major branch of Mormonism, which now calls itself the Community of Christ. They don't use the Book of Mormon in services, their leadership is elected, and they officially leave doctrine and belief up to the individual.

The Community of Christ (which was the Reorganized Church of LDS until the early 2000s) is noteworthy in that they kept their line of Prophet-Presidents through Joseph Smith's descendants into the 1990s. After the last Smith retired, they adopted the election model.

While one of their more recent presidents has gone on record as saying the Book of Mormon isn't a litmus test for membership, they still very much consider it scripture; what's fascinating about it is they publish a different BOM from that of the Young-LDS out of Utah, and it's supposedly closer to the original with fewer edits. Their edition of Doctrine and Covenants is officially considered open canon. They also publish Joseph Smith's KJV that was supposedly corrected under inspiration from the Spirit.

My brother had a friend in high school whom was a member of their local congregation. He had a huge leather-bound volume with the corrected KJV, BOM and D&C in it he carried around school. Kid became super pious after a pilgrimage to Navoo.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 02:46:16 PM »
Kid became super pious after a pilgrimage to Navoo.

Meesa no carin' about the Navoo.

Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 02:50:27 PM »
It doesn't take extensive catechesis for a Christian of any stripe to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that God is a Trinity and that Islam is a separate religion altogether.  This is not the case with pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism which parrots much of Christian terminology, but with an entirely different meaning.

And if someone is sophisticated enough to make the kind of weird, stretch of an argument that you're making below, it's not that they're poorly catechized, it's that they're willfully deluding themselves.
Yeah, but poor catechesis may lead people to be very easily convinced that the Holy Trinity is just an invention by Constantine or some piece of Mithraic syncretism (whatever suits the proselytiser better). Someone who has studied the Gospel with care and orientation won't be so easily deluded.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:50:54 PM by RaphaCam »
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 02:54:29 PM »
I don't know what mormon believe. About islam it is difficult for me to hate, Some of my childhood friend are muslim and my first love was a muslim women. There is not one islam, i appreciate Sufism and most of my read now are sufism poetry, i like the popular culture in islam

Orthodox Sunni Islam, the violent and dangerous one, is 90% of Muslims. Many jihadis have been Sufis.

What is the definition of orthodox sunni islam? Give me this name of this jihadis who have been sufis, maybe i consider them as  hero, for exemple in the algerian revolution you have emir abdelkader.

In general in traditional suni islam you have two school of thought, if you want to distinguish them we can say the first is an islamic scholastic theology, this school is majority in african arab country, levant country and non arab sunni country. The second school is against scholastic theology it is the salafist movement and this movement has devolop in 18th century and it is a majority in Gulf country. Now in the last 40 years the second movement because of the petro money has more folowers in other country outside the Gulf but before 40 years it was a minority. Inside this salafist movement you have three school of thought. THe terrorist now are followers of one school of thought. Outside the traditional sunni you have the sunni soufism, and when we talk about sufism we talk about the sufi as a philosophy of ibn arabi and his folowers.

So i don't know where you got your number, you are just doing the orientalism way.

I know the 'Ashari/Maturdi school and the Salafi/Athari schools. I know there is division in Sunni Islam, (even among Salafis: the Wahhabi-Madkhalis and the Salafi-jihadis) nevertheless the four madhhab and the consensus of scholars all teach jihad. As did Muhammad, in hundreds of Hadith.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 02:55:23 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Nominal Christians are really the biggest victims of Islamic proselytism.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #51 on: Yesterday at 02:57:47 PM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.
He wasn't an actual member, though, just some madman who appeared there already supporting ISIS and caused a lot of headache. The most notorious ISIS supporter in Brazil was expelled from the musalla of João Pessoa as soon as his companions realised his extremism, and the girl from Pará who ended up in ISIS retreated from the Belém mosque months before leaving the country. Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.


Yeah, brazilian muslims are quite liberal I guess. Sheikh Imram Hossein went to my town once to talk with the local muslim community, he simpathyses with orthodox christianity.

Only because he believes we'll help bring on the end times, that same Sheikh Imran is featured on Youtube channels alongside Imam Anwar al-Awlaki.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #52 on: Yesterday at 03:03:40 PM »
It doesn't take extensive catechesis for a Christian of any stripe to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that God is a Trinity and that Islam is a separate religion altogether.  This is not the case with pseudo-Christian cults like Mormonism which parrots much of Christian terminology, but with an entirely different meaning.

And if someone is sophisticated enough to make the kind of weird, stretch of an argument that you're making below, it's not that they're poorly catechized, it's that they're willfully deluding themselves.
Yeah, but poor catechesis may lead people to be very easily convinced that the Holy Trinity is just an invention by Constantine or some piece of Mithraic syncretism (whatever suits the proselytiser better). Someone who has studied the Gospel with care and orientation won't be so easily deluded.

That's true, but none of that will lead to them regarding Islam as "the real Christianity".  It will simply lead to them regarding Christianity as a false religion.

Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

I have a hard time believing that.  Most Christian converts to Islam are fully aware that they are joining a new religion which contends that Our Lord Jesus Christ is not God Incarnate but simply a prophet, and not even the last or the greatest of those.  I'm not willing to buy the load of malarkey that this is simply a difference between the methods of Islamic missionaries in the USA vs. Brazil either.  The world is clear on the fact that Islam and Christianity are two different faiths.  Not so much with Christianity vs. Charismatic cults or even Christianity vs. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".  For simple-minded would-be converts, the choice between Jesus and "Allah" is one thing, while the choice between Jesus and "Jesus" is something else entirely.  In the latter case, they are not always aware that they are leaving Christianity.

Nominal Christians are really the biggest victims of Islamic proselytism.

Who do you think are the biggest victims of Mormon proselytism or JW proselytism?  Kali cultists?  Besides, none of this invalidates the point I was making: Islam is not the Trojan horse that pseudo-Christian cults are.  Islam doesn't masquerade as Christianity.  The would-be apostate has a clear choice between Christianity and something he knows is not Christianity.  In the case of a pseudo-Christian cult like Mormonism (Adventism, JW, et al) the would-be apostate has a choice between Christianity and what he thinks is another form of Christianity.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:06:01 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #53 on: Yesterday at 10:59:13 PM »
Mormonism, for the same reason I dislike other pseudo-Christian sects, like Charismatism.  It purports to be Christianity and confuses people.  Islam, while vile in many ways and more dangerous in a temporal, physical sense, is not as seductive to those who still think they believe in Christ when they embrace the Mormon "Christ", or the Holy Spirit when they embrace the Marquis of Snakes or whichever other foul entity from the pit is causing them to writhe on the floor and jabber in pseudo-tongues.
Well, Muslims do love to seduce Christians with the whole Isa/Maryam thing. Most Muslims I met were former Christians who didn't seem to think much changed beside this whole mushrik Trinity thing.

Western young people are converting to Islam because they're following Christ or something like that.

That's quite the bold claim.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #54 on: Today at 07:19:57 AM »
Quote
I had some interaction with the local Muslim community back in 2014/2015, and some ironies of destiny brought me back into this milieu recently.

There was a Daesh supporter in one of Rio's mosques.
He wasn't an actual member, though, just some madman who appeared there already supporting ISIS and caused a lot of headache. The most notorious ISIS supporter in Brazil was expelled from the musalla of João Pessoa as soon as his companions realised his extremism, and the girl from Pará who ended up in ISIS retreated from the Belém mosque months before leaving the country. Our communities are rather moderate, but the internet age finds a lot of space for madness inside any fraction of the Ummah.


Yeah, brazilian muslims are quite liberal I guess. Sheikh Imram Hossein went to my town once to talk with the local muslim community, he simpathyses with orthodox christianity.

Only because he believes we'll help bring on the end times, that same Sheikh Imran is featured on Youtube channels alongside Imam Anwar al-Awlaki.

Really? I had no idea about his connection to jihadists. How the orthodox church would help to bring the end times?

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #55 on: Today at 08:15:57 AM »
Hmmm for me both religions are weak. But Mormonism is worse. They teach a plurality of Gods (tritheism) and they dare to say that they are the Church. Islam yes is weak, poor theology but muslims don't believe in many gods but ONE.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #56 on: Today at 09:30:39 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.
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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #57 on: Today at 09:50:10 AM »
Perhaps someone is familiar with Mormonism better than me, but it seems to me, ontologically speaking, Mormonism is an atheistic faith.  There's no real divinity, only the promise that all humans will one day have the same "rewards" as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How did the Father get his "reward" in Mormonism?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #58 on: Today at 09:56:29 AM »
Islam has better art. Therefore Islam wins.

There's a reason all Mormon art is destined to become memes.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #59 on: Today at 10:01:19 AM »
Perhaps someone is familiar with Mormonism better than me, but it seems to me, ontologically speaking, Mormonism is an atheistic faith.  There's no real divinity, only the promise that all humans will one day have the same "rewards" as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How did the Father get his "reward" in Mormonism?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. What is the absolute divine principle in Mormonism? Clearly not any of divine personages who were once men. I suppose there could be some abstract idea of Godhead behind them.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #60 on: Today at 10:37:15 AM »
Perhaps someone is familiar with Mormonism better than me, but it seems to me, ontologically speaking, Mormonism is an atheistic faith.  There's no real divinity, only the promise that all humans will one day have the same "rewards" as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  How did the Father get his "reward" in Mormonism?

He was obedient to his Heavenly Father, who was obedient to his Heavenly Father, ad infinitum. Somehow they feel this infinite chain of "God"s solves all traditional theological problems.
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #61 on: Today at 01:04:38 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.
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Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #62 on: Today at 01:11:14 PM »
I don't know so much about the word "dislike", I guess I respect and am more used to Islam and I get a bit puzzled when people in America lump Mormons in with Christians.  To me they are easily more distant than Islam.

Some points:

1) Slippery Slopes and consequential / "socially relevant" arguments ought be put on the back burner.  They aren't very good points unless you want to qualify them.  Any doctrine and technique of Christianity, can and in many cases has led to really bad heresy and problems.  This isn't rocket surgery to figure out why, it's a "just so" thing...the same is true with science, or almost any other human endeavor.  I'm pretty sure we could take a sound statement and piece of dogma formulated from someone like St. Athanasius and play a six degree of separation game and up with some heretic or bad behavior by some group.  These are both "post Christian" religions, but I think one is more "post" than the other.

2) Theologically speaking I don't see how one can make the argument that Mormons have a better conception of God than Muslims.  That would require some rube goldberg logic.  You can probably take this a step further and say that they respect and keep a better integrity of who Christ is, and probably the fundamentals of a Abrahamic / Monotheistic world view as a whole much more than the Mormons.

3)  I don't think I've ever been impressed by anything the Mormons have done.  I think maybe they've had some good choir music in the past?  I wouldn't be surprised though if  even that has taken the trend of most American church music and has turned into highly sentimental and derivative Muzak.  I',m sorry if that sounds like a backhand to Mormons, but I'm sorry I just don't "get" much of American styled religiosity.  I get there are very pious, good, and honest people who love Jesus (more than many Orthodox).  I have a pretty tense and tragic view about Islam; but there is no denying they were able to function in a full civilization and produced all the splendors and baggage that come with it.  Mormonism seems more sectarian and cultish...I could see these guys buying "The Benedict Option" book, I don't think your average Muslim would ever fall for that.  Again, I may have some cultural blinders on.

4)  The point Antonious Nikolas made about the Mormons being a more corrupting influence is a good point, and I almost agreed with it.  But I think I may have a refutation to that: things like Iconoclasm was part of an "Islamization" of Christianity.  Islam has had pretty big effects on the Orthodox world.  I heard (?) that they have effected the way our bishops dress and function and that some of these things are relics from us trying to deal with being in an Islamic culture.   I think maybe the claim that right now in the west, Mormonism is going to be more corrupting and subversive.

I'll try and fact check my claim about Bishop garb if someone wants me to
« Last Edit: Today at 01:13:11 PM by William T »

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #63 on: Today at 01:14:44 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline William T

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #64 on: Today at 01:15:35 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #65 on: Today at 01:27:49 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

All artists steal and copy. 

True story: about ten years ago when someone was complaining in smug self righteousness about how some local successful band "ripped off and stole the blues",  I did an actual spit take from laughing so hard.

Because they're not the only ones to have stolen the blues? Or because you're ignorant of American musical history?
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #66 on: Today at 01:32:42 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'
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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #67 on: Today at 01:33:41 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'

Then you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

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Re: Mormonism vs Islam: Which do you dislike more?
« Reply #68 on: Today at 01:36:29 PM »
Most Islamic art is copied from Indian, Zoroastrian and Byzantine sources. And that's in spite of Muhammad's commands prohibiting depictions of anything on Earth.

"Influenced by" is not the same as "copied from."

Yes, I realize that. Thus why I used the word 'copied.'

Then you have no idea what you're talking about.

I entirely do. They turned Hindu, Buddhist, Christian sites into Mosques and appropriated their culture.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”- St. Ambrose of Milan

"Now one cannot be a half-hearted Christian, but only entirely or not at all." -Fr. Seraphim Rose

"He who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20)