Author Topic: Catholic going East.  (Read 8579 times)

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Offline ignatius

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Catholic going East.
« on: October 25, 2006, 04:49:16 PM »
What are the biggest differences as I journey east?  ???
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2006, 05:00:44 PM »
Depends on how far 'East' you are going. Byzantine Rite RC or making the entire journey home?
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Offline ignatius

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2006, 05:47:26 PM »
Depends on how far 'East' you are going. Byzantine Rite RC or making the entire journey home?

Holy Orthodoxy...
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2006, 06:54:03 PM »
Hi Ignatius,

Correct me if I'm wrong.....
It  seems to me that you are anxious about the whole thing in the same way you were a couple of months ago.  What can we tell you?  It's different being Orthodox.  In our opinion, of course, the great thing that is different is that you can really experience spiritual growth in a powerful way.  This takes perseverance, however.  Perseverance and faith.  It's not always easy.  I'd being doing you a disservice if I said it was.  I converted over 20 years ago when I was a teenager.  I've seen my share of troubles, both personal and in the Church, over that period of time.  But I wouldn't trade Orthodoxy for all the gold on earth.  Make no mistake.  There will be things that you will not like about Orthodoxy.  Some parts of the Church are going through a very painful death, as people who are in it just for the ethnic component hang on until the bitter end.  There are scandals, and there is senseless bickering.  It's not always that "convenient" to find somewhere where you can receive sacramental care when you are travelling.  But there is also the potential for genuine spiritual growth and even contentment.   It will be hard sometimes.  The Devil hates it when people seek out genuine spiritual growth.  Have no fear.  Trust in God, call on Him always. He'll never let you be exposed to something that you can't handle if you trust in Him.  And call on other Orthodox Christians to lean on too!

I think you have read enough books to know what the essential differences are between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.  Am I right?  If not, or if you want to refine your question more, just indicate it in your next post. 

May God grant you the peace that passes all understanding as you set out on your journey.

James Bob
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 06:56:35 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2006, 08:14:49 AM »
What are the biggest differences as I journey east?  ???
Leaving the village and entering the Palace of the King via the main Door.
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2006, 08:17:28 AM »
ignatius,

There's no way we can mention all the differences; some are 'general' differences, and others will be particular to you and your situation. When you find differences, talk to others about them so that you can grow even more through them.

Also, you will suffer in Orthodoxy. This is an opportunity to grow, though, and makes the joy you find so much more sweet!

Congratulations on your decision! Please feel free to PM me whenever you need information, to vent, or for prayers.

+Fr. Chris
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 08:18:09 AM by chris »
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Offline Philokalia

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2006, 09:26:18 AM »
You lose sight of Peter the Apostle and his successors.

Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2006, 10:11:31 AM »
You lose sight of Peter the Apostle and his successors.



No you don't, you just cease thinking of the Pope of Rome as the successor rather than a successor of St. Peter.

James
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Offline Papist

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2006, 10:41:46 AM »
No you don't, you just cease thinking of the Pope of Rome as the successor rather than a successor of St. Peter.

James
Actually the Pope is successor of both Sts. Peter and Paul. But that is another discussion altogether.  ;D
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2006, 01:13:38 PM »
Actually the Pope is successor of both Sts. Peter and Paul. But that is another discussion altogether.  ;D
More correctly, he is one of many living successors to the Apostles, just not the only one as some hold.

Offline Philokalia

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2006, 01:49:19 PM »
More correctly, he is one of many living successors to the Apostles, just not the only one as some hold.

All the Bishops are successors of the Apostles. As Peter was first among the Apostles so the Bishop of Rome is first among the successors.


Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2006, 02:18:52 PM »
All the Bishops are successors of the Apostles. As Peter was first among the Apostles so the Bishop of Rome is first among the successors.

Or rather, will be first among the successors once there's an Orthodox Bishop of Rome again.  Apostolic succession is more than just ecclesiastical pedigree; it's holding the same faith, as well.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2006, 02:27:21 PM »
As Peter was first among the Apostles so the Bishop of Rome is first among the successors.
Which works out fine until someone suggests that means he had authority over them which the Bible tells us was not so.

Offline Philokalia

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2006, 02:30:22 PM »
Which works out fine until someone suggests that means he had authority over them which the Bible tells us was not so.

Where does the Bible tell us this? I must have missed that verse.


Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2006, 05:03:35 PM »
Where does the Bible tell us this? I must have missed that verse.
Quote
Matthew 20:24-26 (New King James Version)
 
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant.
And please don't use the line about the Pope is being the servant to all by attempting to claim authority over them.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2006, 05:17:20 PM »

Also, you will suffer in Orthodoxy. This is an opportunity to grow, though, and makes the joy you find so much more sweet!

Ignatius,

I, for one, can attest to how true this is as I am sure others can.  Since I have come home, I have been beset by temptation every day in every way.  My own priest said to me after my first confession prior to my chrismation at Pascha that the evil one will not simply give up now that I have become Orthodox but will assault me all the more.  I have lived a very sinful life and though I have had a number of great blessings handed to me the past couple of years, nothing compares with the faith that I have been newly born into both in terms of great joy and also of great despair. I am thankful for my troubles because I know, truly know, that I have never lived a life of repentance and now that I am given the chance to repent with the certainty of the true faith, I am under assault frequently.  That is why Christ's Church is the pearl of great price, not some copper coin.  It may take much to get it, but when it does happen your joy will know no bounds.  This is one of Orthodoxy's greatest witnesses to the modern world, the fact that we do have to suffer for the kingdom and not simply be complacent every day except for Sunday and a few other holy days during the year.

Best to you on your journey home.

Scamandrius
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Offline Philokalia

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2006, 05:32:12 PM »
And please don't use the line about the Pope is being the servant to all by attempting to claim authority over them.


And John 21?

15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 A second time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Anyway are you suggesting that all Bishops are equal in authority to each other? Or that Bishops have no authority at all?




Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2006, 08:20:36 AM »
Anyway are you suggesting that all Bishops are equal in authority to each other? Or that Bishops have no authority at all?
I'm suggesting that all Apostles were equal in authority and that there is no evidence that it's any different for the Bishops that followed them.

Offline Philokalia

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2006, 08:48:01 AM »
I'm suggesting that all Apostles were equal in authority and that there is no evidence that it's any different for the Bishops that followed them.

So why did Peter receive a special commission in John 21?


Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2006, 09:02:00 AM »
So why did Peter receive a special commission in John 21?

Did he? Or was his threefold profession of love for Christ the counter to his previous threefold denial of Him? I know that you'll come up with the usual RC claims about sheep as opposed to lambs but I'm afraid that I have never sen a single shred of evidence that this view is a reasonable interpretation. And even if he did, which I do not believe, receive a special commission, where is your evidence that this commission must (or even could) pass on to his successor and, more to the point, where is your evidence that this successor is the bishop of Rome rather than Antioch or Alexandria? Even if you could prove that St. Peter held some special prerogative amongst the Apostles you'd be a very, very long way from proving your case that the Pope of Rome should hold such a position amongst the other bishops.

James
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Offline hedley

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2006, 12:31:39 PM »
What are the biggest differences as I journey east?  ???

There is a lot less praying to the Holy Mother of God. You may miss the Catholic rosary. You may also miss St Bernadette and  other Western saints.

Confession is more challenging. There is no grille and if you have a spiritual father, you are encouraged to make all your confessions to him. It is embarassing to admit to any sin and particularly the same sins time and again without the sheild of anonimity.

Liturgy is  more focused on repentence. Kyrie Eleison is repeated time and again, more as if you really mean it, than as a pius, immemorial lyric.

The liturgy is very reverential, so it is easier to remember what it is about.

There is a  focus  on the liturgical year, which you get a feel for.

You have to observe certain customs, ikon kissing, candle lighting, standing, crossing yourself at mention of the Trinity, etc. It feels a bit awkward to start. If you find your heart is not really into some of it, remember that the one way you have of thanking the Orthodox for preserving the faith is to observe their customs.

You have to fast a lot more, and the purpose   is not so much repentence, as to build up the self control to be able to resist sin.

Easter is a more important feast than Christmass.

The clergy do not assail you with irreverence, innovation or political correctness.

Your Catholic friends will strangely fade away. Some of your Catholic relations will be hurt, but they probably won't say so.





Offline hedley

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2006, 12:57:07 PM »
Oops:- I forgot - you have to abandon the belief that the top bishop aquires the divine attribute of infallibility the instant he takes office.

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2006, 02:00:48 PM »
So why did Peter receive a special commission in John 21?
That would only be relevant if there was some mention in John 21 about this commission being passed to his successors.

But there isn't so let's move on.

Offline ignatius

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2006, 03:33:21 PM »
I believe I can say now that the Roman Catholic Church does not display the guidance necessary to having been led by the Holy Spirit with inerrant authority. Seriously.  ::)

Look at the state of the Church.
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2006, 05:00:31 PM »
There is a lot less praying to the Holy Mother of God.

 ???  Where on earth do you get this idea?  Liturgically, there is far more mention of the Theotokos in Orthodoxy than in the Latin Church.  If by this you mean that there is much less attention paid to her in sort of a separate cultic way, then I might agree with you.  Even so, look at all the feast days given over to her, the many icons of her, the akathists and canons written about her etc.
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Offline Philokalia

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2006, 05:10:17 PM »
I believe I can say now that the Roman Catholic Church does not display the guidance necessary to having been led by the Holy Spirit with inerrant authority. Seriously.  ::)

Look at the state of the Church.

The Church can expect to be assaulted by Satan inside and out. The consequences of this assault are always visible and a source of scandal. This can be applied to the bitter divisions within Orthodoxy say or the sexual scandals in the Catholic Church. The state of the Church is ever a cause of concern for the faithful but will never be fully perfect, or even mostly perfect, this side of the end of the world. The Catholic Church is probably in better shape now than it was before Francis of Assisi began his mission or Catherine of Siena had to struggle to persuade the Pope to return from Avignon to Rome.


Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.

Offline FrChris

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2006, 05:39:05 PM »
???  Where on earth do you get this idea?  Liturgically, there is far more mention of the Theotokos in Orthodoxy than in the Latin Church.  If by this you mean that there is much less attention paid to her in sort of a separate cultic way, then I might agree with you.  Even so, look at all the feast days given over to her, the many icons of her, the akathists and canons written about her etc.

Yes, I agree. I have heard from more than one source the following:

"The Orthodox pray more with the Theotokos, but the Roman Catholics theologize more with her"
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline hedley

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2006, 10:26:31 PM »
???  Where on earth do you get this idea?  Liturgically, there is far more mention of the Theotokos in Orthodoxy than in the Latin Church.  If by this you mean that there is much less attention paid to her in sort of a separate cultic way, then I might agree with you.  Even so, look at all the feast days given over to her, the many icons of her, the akathists and canons written about her etc.

Good point -

I think I mean it in the latter sense. Saying the Hail Mary was a big part of prayer outside the liturgy when I was in the RCC.

Offline bripat22

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Re: Catholic going East.
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2006, 07:21:09 PM »
There is a lot less praying to the Holy Mother of God.




I have not experienced this as an Orthodox.  The Blessed Mother of God and devotion to her a constant in the Liturgy and Services and so many Akathists, the Paraclesis etc etc  We are United in our devotion to the MOther of God although we may express it in slightly different and ways.  i believe that this unity in prayer to the Blessed Mother will help in bringing Catholics and Orthodox together then all the conferences and polemics that we exchange in our ignorance.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 07:23:57 PM by bripat22 »
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