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Author Topic: Pro-Choice Christians  (Read 9973 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ben
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« on: June 25, 2004, 03:47:07 AM »

See attachment......

A picture is worth a thousand words, or in this case a billion.
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2004, 03:51:11 AM »

It gets worse....
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2004, 07:18:20 AM »

Oy indeed.   This is what happens when you spend a thousand years or more seperated from the source of all Truth, Holy Orthodoxy.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2004, 08:05:02 AM »

Because we all know there are NO members of ANY Orthodox church anywhere at any time who would ever have turned liberal and disgraced their roots.
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2004, 08:07:16 AM »

Rho, I am not nor did I claim this.  Of course these people do exist and do not represent the mind of the Orthodox Church on this matter.  However these people seem less like an anomaly and more like the natural outcome of schism.

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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2004, 08:38:20 AM »

Of course there are those who deviate from the teachings of the Church everywhere.  What you don't really see in Orthodoxy, however, are folks claiming openly that this is compatible with Orthodoxy.  There is no "Orthodox Christians for Choice" organization that is the equivalent of the "Catholics for Choice" organization.  There are dissenters, but they seem not to presume that this is achievable within Orthodoxy.  

I think there are probably two reasons for this: (1) given the variety of other religious options in North America, the true dissenters tend to leave the Orthodox Church and either migrate to plain secularism or a Protestant church that is amenable to their views (and which may or may not be the church of their non-Orthodox spouse or significant other) ...(this has happened to a certain degree in Catholicism as well with many left-leaning Catholics taking the Episcopal option, but what is interesting is that many others have chosen to stay Catholic and advocate change there), and (2) the reality that advocating change in the Orthodox Church is something like a fool's errand because of the inherently conservative nature of the church through and through.  It's true that what the pro-choice Catholics are advocating is also inconsistent with Catholic teaching, but what is interesting is that they persist in their advocacy, which in itself is indicative of a hope on their part -- however misplaced that may be -- that this kind of change is possible in the context of the Catholic Church ... I don't think that pro-choice Orthodox would be as sanguine in their own estimation of the likelihood of this kind of change in the context of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2004, 08:38:34 AM »

My first reaction to Joe's reply was to deem it totally unfair, since officially the RCC is most certainly not "pro-choice."

However, upon reflection I think from a certain point of view there is truth to what Joe said.

All heresies, heterodoxy, and erroneous views about what constitues "Christian ethics" are examples (in those who adhere to them) of an estrangement from the mind of the Church, the mind of Christ.  Unfortunately, such unbecoming ways of thinking have often had their beginnings in those who were officially/nominally parts of the Orthodox Church.  This is true of Papism, and the majority of other major heresies (besides those begotten of these groups once they have been estranged from the Orthodox Church, obviously - namely Protestantism and the later western sects like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, etc.)

While you will always have a few cranks here and there, the legion of uber-liberal nominal Roman Catholics does reflect in some degree upon the official heirarchy of the RCC and the Popes; namely the fact they created a climate which encouraged such nonsense, and despite it reaching a boil, show little real willingness to discipline such persons.  My understanding is that there are even a few American RC bishops (active and retired) who are even regular speakers and members of some very radical liberal groups, like the notorious "Call to Action."  This cannot be a secret to the Vatican - which makes one wonder where the bulls of excommunication are?

Pity, that to my knowledge the only heirarchs of the RCC to actually be excommunicated in the last fourty years, were the Lefebvre bishops.

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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2004, 10:07:28 AM »

IMHO, this "Catholic" mom is Catholic in name only.

JoeS   :-

It gets worse....
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2004, 10:33:15 AM »

"Of course there are those who deviate from the teachings of the Church everywhere.  What you don't really see in Orthodoxy, however, are folks claiming openly that this is compatible with Orthodoxy.  There is no "Orthodox Christians for Choice" organization that is the equivalent of the "Catholics for Choice" organization.  There are dissenters, but they seem not to presume that this is achievable within Orthodoxy."

Give it time.  It has already started with Axios www.axios.net/ and the promotion of the compatibility of practicing homosexuality and Orthodoxy.  I am sure there will be one to promote abortion sooner or later.  I don't think any Church is immune to this, although I think the ultra-conservative nature of the Orthodox coupled with ethnic orientation has helped stave off widespread dissent for this long.  But when you have a pro-abortion senator made an archon how long before pro-abortion Orthodox start to make their voice heard?

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2004, 10:44:11 AM »

"I don't think any Church is immune to this, although I think the ultra-conservative nature of the Orthodox coupled with ethnic orientation has helped stave off widespread dissent for this long.  But when you have a pro-abortion senator made an archon how long before pro-abortion Orthodox start to make their voice heard?"

It *may* happen, I agree, but I have been surprised that it hasn't happened yet to a significant degree.  My guess is that the folks who support this either stay quiet about it or leave.  That may change, but I guess it's surprising to me that we haven't yet seen "Orthodox Christians for Choice" or something akin to it, develop.  

Then again, it may be much to expect Orthodox, even dissenting ones, to have much organizational ability.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2004, 11:36:05 AM »

"Of course there are those who deviate from the teachings of the Church everywhere.  What you don't really see in Orthodoxy, however, are folks claiming openly that this is compatible with Orthodoxy.  There is no "Orthodox Christians for Choice" organization that is the equivalent of the "Catholics for Choice" organization.  There are dissenters, but they seem not to presume that this is achievable within Orthodoxy."

Give it time.  It has already started with Axios www.axios.net/ and the promotion of the compatibility of practicing homosexuality and Orthodoxy.  I am sure there will be one to promote abortion sooner or later.  I don't think any Church is immune to this, although I think the ultra-conservative nature of the Orthodox coupled with ethnic orientation has helped stave off widespread dissent for this long.  But when you have a pro-abortion senator made an archon how long before pro-abortion Orthodox start to make their voice heard?

Fr. Deacon Lance



I thought someone might bring this up.  I haven't completely perused the site and don't know the group's official position (if they have one), but I don't know if they are actually advocating that actively practicing homosexuality is compatible with Orthodoxy.  To me, they appear to be just some sort of a support group for each other.  Of course, Orthodopraxis would probably advocate working against this passion in a private manner with one's spiritual father, as opposed to some support group thing.  No one should be "out", but more of a "don't ask, don't tell".  Just my 1/50th of a dollar (to steal the phrase from someone else).
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2004, 12:02:42 PM »

"I don't know if they are actually advocating that actively practicing homosexuality is compatible with Orthodoxy.  To me, they appear to be just some sort of a support group for each other."

Not to digress this thread too much they do indeed advocate practicing homosexuality.  They are linked with Dignity, the Catholic group that advocates the same thing.  Courage, on the other hand, which is a Catholic group that helps those with homosexuals attractions to live chaste lives is nowhere to be found.

See this site:
http://www.eskimo.com/~nickz/axios.faq
http://www.eskimo.com/~nickz/axios.html
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2004, 12:37:39 PM »

But a perusal of these sites reveals that the churches listed there are not a part of any recognized Orthodox jurisdiction, so my point about people "leaving" I guess would also apply here.  Catholics for Choice, by contrast, consists of folks who receive communion in the RCC -- and not a splinter imitator "church" -- every week.  I'm not saying that as a knock on Catholicism, but rather as an observation that at least some RCs think that this kind of change is possible in Catholicism, which is why they stay rather than leaving (as well as for cultural reasons).
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2004, 01:02:06 PM »

Brendan,

The churches advertised are part of the "Independent Greek Orthodox Church of the US" http://orthopraxis.org/about/ but if you look further in the site they make referals to sympathetic priests in canonical jurisdictions.  A fellow from this group posted at byzcath for a time and stated this as well.  Of course they kept these priests identities secret to outsiders and tell thier members to be discreet so it is definately more covert than what is occuring in the Catholic Church where you have some priests being outright disobedient.  I am unsure why any dissident group in the Catholic Church, or the Orthodox Church for that matter, thinks they are going to change any moral teaching.  The oragnization of the Church does not provide for morality by popular vote.  Although being encouraged by disobedient priests certainly keeps them hoping.

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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2004, 01:14:38 PM »

Quote
Give it time.  It has already started with Axios www.axios.net/ and the promotion of the compatibility of practicing homosexuality and Orthodoxy.  I am sure there will be one to promote abortion sooner or later.

Mmm.  My guess (or my hope, rather) concerning this would be that, since it has been on the forefront of the news with Kerry as of late, and the homosexual issue with Robinson in ECUSA, the Orthodox will see it coming if someone tries to make it an issue within the communion.

I know I for one will be pitching a fit, and I don't think I'll be alone in doing so.  We're too grateful for being in a communion that has resisted this bull____ for so long.
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2004, 04:24:10 PM »

Quote
Mmm.  My guess (or my hope, rather) concerning this would be that, since it has been on the forefront of the news with Kerry as of late, and the homosexual issue with Robinson in ECUSA, the Orthodox will see it coming if someone tries to make it an issue within the communion.


We all know it's coming, it's just a matter of when. Thank God that so far the Orthodox faith is not a democracy, these goons for now have no chance of changing us.

Quote
I know I for one will be pitching a fit, and I don't think I'll be alone in doing so.  We're too grateful for being in a communion that has resisted this bull____ for so long.

I agree. Too much garbage going on today in so called christian churches. If I were RC or Anglican, I think I would be spending a good chunk of my time passing out literature & putting pamphlets on cars after church to combat these termites eating away at the foundations.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2004, 04:35:25 PM »

I honestly think once Orthodoxy grows, and settles here in American, I mean Orthodoxy is actually quite young to the Western World, we will see more and more liberal Orthodox groups. But I think the difference is, that as it has already been mentioned here, most Orthodox Christians who don't agree with the teachings of their Church, leave Orthodoxy. The Catholic Church on the other hand, has much much more members, and of course many individuals are just Catholics because thats how they were raised, or due to cultural reasons. I think because the Catholic Church is so big, and includes so many different kinds of people, there has always and will always be those disenters who try to reform or change the Church, rather than just leave it.

As for Joe's comment, it was totally off! It would only be relevant if the Catholic Church took on a pro-choice agenda. But if a few Catholics are pro-choice, that in no way has anything to do with "a thousand years or more seperated from the source of all Truth, Holy Orthodoxy." As I said that comment would only work if the Catholic Church actually accepted abortion as a woman's choice. But if only some Catholics, who are disenting from Catholic teaching, are pro-choice, then really "a thousand years or more seperated from the source of all Truth, Holy Orthodoxy" has nothing to do with it, rather many years of Western liberalism, secularism, and materialism is to blame.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2004, 07:47:41 PM »


As for Joe's comment, it was totally off! It would only be relevant if the Catholic Church took on a pro-choice agenda. But if a few Catholics are pro-choice, that in no way has anything to do with "a thousand years or more seperated from the source of all Truth, Holy Orthodoxy." As I said that comment would only work if the Catholic Church actually accepted abortion as a woman's choice. But if only some Catholics, who are disenting from Catholic teaching, are pro-choice, then really "a thousand years or more seperated from the source of all Truth, Holy Orthodoxy" has nothing to do with it, rather many years of Western liberalism, secularism, and materialism is to blame.

But it's not honest to say that a "few" Catholics are pro-choice.  The majority of Catholics are pro-choice.  It would easy to 'dismiss' them by saying they're Catholics "in name only" but IMHO that's awfully presumptuous.  

Regardless, abortion simply isn't an issue that matters to the average Catholic. My experience has been that the typical practicing Catholic is only moderately pro-life.  

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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2004, 07:51:15 PM »

Lol....the majority of Catholics are *not* pro-choice. I do wonder where you got that information! Whether it is true or not, they are going against the teaching of their Church, and commiting a Mortal sin, that must be confessed before they can make a good communion, otherwise they eat and drink condemnation unto themselves.
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2004, 09:41:21 PM »

Jennifer, have you ever been to the March for Life? I would hardly think those Catholics are moderately pro-life. Sheesh.
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2004, 10:02:04 PM »

How many practicing Catholics attend the March for Life?  There are what...26 million Catholics, of that about half are practicing so that's 13 million.  I don't think 13 million people are at the March for Life.  

Sure the Catholics who show up at the March for Life and other anti-abortion protests are 'adamently' pro-life but note that I wrote that the average practicing Catholic is only moderately pro-life.  

Ben, under Roman Catholic tradition, a mortal sin requires knowledge therefore it's certainly debatable whether being pro-choice is a mortal sin.  Ignoring the teaching authority of the Church can be a mortal sin if there is knowledge of the gravity of the sin.  I would argue that the typical American Catholic is so poorly catechized that they are unaware of the gravity of the sin of ignoring the Church's teaching about abortion therefore they can't technically be committing a mortal sin.  

A very conservative RC priest once told me that he doubted whether anyone but a priest was capable of commiting a mortal sin because of the awareness required.  

Also someone can be against abortion but either 1) think it should be legal or 2) don't really care whether it's legal or not.  Certainly that's moral 'squishyness,' but probably not 'veering' into mortal sin territory.  That's probably more along the lines of a poor formation of conscience.  

I think it's simply naive to believe that the average Catholic is radically pro-life.  See the survey attached.  http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll1.htm

It appears Catholics are only slightly less likely than all Americans to oppose abortion.
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2004, 10:28:00 PM »

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How many practicing Catholics attend the March for Life?  There are what...26 million Catholics, of that about half are practicing so that's 13 million.  I don't think 13 million people are at the March for Life.  


Maybe the majority of American Catholics are luke warm on abortion, but not the majority of Catholics. And certainly they don't speak for the Church as a whole, which teaches that Abortion is murder, and to support abortion in any way is a mortal sin.

Quote
Sure the Catholics who show up at the March for Life and other anti-abortion protests are 'adamently' pro-life but note that I wrote that the average practicing Catholic is only moderately pro-life.  


I disgaree, I think the average Catholic is pro-life, plain and simple, you may be speaking of just American Catholics, or just the Catholics you know, but polls, studies, and surveys have found the average pacticing Catholic is 100% pro-life.

Even if this weren't true, two wrongs don't make a right, it doesn't change the teaching of the Church.

Quote
Ben, under Roman Catholic tradition, a mortal sin requires knowledge therefore it's certainly debatable whether being pro-choice is a mortal sin.
 

If you know that the Church teaches Abortion is murder and to support abortion is a mortal sin, which every Catholic would know by just watching CNN or any other news station, and one still supports abortion, then they are truly guilty of this sin, because whether they believe it to be a sin or not, they know what the Church teaches.

Quote
Ignoring the teaching authority of the Church can be a mortal sin if there is knowledge of the gravity of the sin.
 

A Catholic who doesn't know that ignoring the teaching of the Church is a sin need to be seriously helped, unforuntantely so often Catholics know nothing about their faith, this is too comon.

But honestly pro-choice Catholics are aware that the Church teaches abortion is murder and to support it is sin. Every Catholic parish has pro-life material, and every newspaper, news show, and magazine has mentioned John Kerry and the controversy around his pro-choice agenda. And really all the pro-choice Catholics I know, and all the pro-choice Catholic organizations know what the Church teaches, but believe the Church is wrong in this case, and they are trying to remain good Catholics and still go against the teaching of the Church. They know what they are doing is considered a sin, but they believe they can fight it and try to change the Church. Those Catholic who march in pro-choice marches and support the murder of innocent children, are usually not in the dark as to where the Church stands on abortion.

Quote
I would argue that the typical American Catholic is so poorly catechized that they are unaware of the gravity of the sin of ignoring the Church's teaching about abortion therefore they can't technically be committing a mortal sin.  


American Catholics are poorly catechized, but almost every Catholic church has pro-life material, and just reading the catechism, or going to a Catholic site, or reading Catholic material will show the Church's pro-life stance. One would really have to be in the dark to not know that the Church teaches abortion is murder.

Quote
A very conservative RC priest once told me that he doubted whether anyone but a priest was capable of commiting a mortal sin because of the awareness required.  


Ah hogwash! People may be poorly catechized but all people are taught what is right and wrong, even if the concept of right and wrong taught to them isn't exactly Catholic, and most Catholics know what the Church teaches, and many refuse to believe or accept it, like Kerry on Abortion.

Quote
Also someone can be against abortion but either 1) think it should be legal or 2) don't really care whether it's legal or not.  Certainly that's moral 'squishyness,' but probably not 'veering' into mortal sin territory.  That's probably more along the lines of a poor formation of conscience.  


To support abortion in any way is mortal sin, that includes thinking it should be legal or just not caring.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2004, 10:38:09 PM »

I might add that I used to be pro-choice, when I first became Catholic. I knew, as did all my very well educated pro-choice Catholic friends, that the Chuch taught abortion was wrong and murder, but we didn't care, we ignored it, which is the case with most pro-choice Catholics, who aren't a bunch of idiots!
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2004, 10:48:06 PM »



Maybe the majority of American Catholics are luke warm on abortion, but not the majority of Catholics. And certainly they don't speak for the Church as a whole, which teaches that Abortion is murder, and to support abortion in any way is a mortal sin.

What's the difference between the majority of American Catholics and the majority of Catholics?  Are you making an assumption that those lukewarm American Catholics aren't real Catholics?  

Quote
I disgaree, I think the average Catholic is pro-life, plain and simple, you may be speaking of just American Catholics, or just the Catholics you know, but polls, studies, and surveys have found the average pacticing Catholic is 100% pro-life.

100% pro-life?  I happen to know quite a few practicing Catholics (although maybe they're not Catholic enough for you) who are pro-choice.  

Quote
Even if this weren't true, two wrongs don't make a right, it doesn't change the teaching of the Church.  

No one said it changed the teaching of the Church.  The Church isn't a democracy.  

Quote
If you know that the Church teaches Abortion is murder and to support abortion is a mortal sin, which every Catholic would know by just watching CNN or any other news station, and one still supports abortion, then they are truly guilty of this sin, because whether they believe it to be a sin or not, they know what the Church teaches.  

A Catholic who doesn't know that ignoring the teaching of the Church is a sin need to be seriously helped, unforuntantely so often Catholics know nothing about their faith, this is too comon.

But honestly pro-choice Catholics are aware that the Church teaches abortion is murder and to support it is sin. Every Catholic parish has pro-life material, and every newspaper, news show, and magazine has mentioned John Kerry and the controversy around his pro-choice agenda. And really all the pro-choice Catholics I know, and all the pro-choice Catholic organizations know what the Church teaches, but believe the Church is wrong in this case, and they are trying to remain good Catholics and still go against the teaching of the Church. They know what they are doing is considered a sin, but they believe they can fight it and try to change the Church.

American Catholics are poorly catechized, but almost every Catholic church has pro-life material, and just reading the catechism, or going to a Catholic site, or reading Catholic material will show the Church's pro-life stance. One would really have to be in the dark to not know that the Church teaches abortion is murder.

You didn't understand what I wrote.  Everyone knows that the Catholic Churches teaches abortion is a sin.  It's not that they don't know the Church's position but rather that they don't accept the teaching authority of the Church.  If they accepted the Church's authority, they wouldn't be pro-choice, obviously.  

Quote
Ah hogwash! People may be poorly catechized but all people are taught what is right and wrong, even if the concept of right and wrong taught to them isn't exactly Catholic, and most Catholics know what the Church teaches, and many refuse to believe or accept it, like Kerry on Abortion.

To support abortion in any way is mortal sin, that includes thinking it should be legal or just not caring.


Review your catechism for the definition of mortal sin.  Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.  The catechism says that there must be knowledge of the sinful character of the act.  It is not possible to commit a mortal sin without a complete understanding of the nature of the act.  Therefore someone who honestly believes that abortion isn't that big of a deal so they don't care whether it's legal or not isn't commiting a morta sin.  His/her disobeyance of the teaching authority of the Church may be a mortal sin because it's a grave matter, however, the person would need to understand fully that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be and further believe that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be and then knowingly disregard the Church's teachings.  

For example, it is a mortal to reject baptism but someone who doesn't know the necessity of baptism has not committed a mortal sin for refusing baptism.  

You need to be careful about throwing around the term "mortal sin."  Mortal sin is an incredibly serious offense.  We should be horrified at the prospect of mortal sin.  

Like I wrote earlier, I know a good very conservative priest who is an excellent confessor.  He's been a priest for almost 25 years.  He sincerely believes that most people are not capable of committing mortal sins.  He formed that opinion after listening to people's confessions for 25 years.  He's a good and holy priest and very conservative but he doesn't believe that most people are deliberately rejecting God's law with complete knowledge and assent to the consequences.
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2004, 10:50:40 PM »

I might add that I used to be pro-choice, when I first became Catholic. I knew, as did all my very well educated pro-choice Catholic friends, that the Chuch taught abortion was wrong and murder, but we didn't care, we ignored it, which is the case with most pro-choice Catholics, who aren't a bunch of idiots!

So if, God forbid, you had died while you were ignoring the Church's teaching, would you go to hell?  Do you believe you were commiting a mortal sin for ignoring the Church's teaching?  

Haven't you ever heard people tell inquirers that once they believe that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be that they have to convert?  Why is that?  Because if you believe the Church is what it claims to be then you must be obedient to it.  Otherwise you are committing a mortal sin.  However, someone who doesn't believe the Church is what it claims to be (like you before you converted) are not committing a mortal for rejecting the Church's authority.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2004, 11:01:21 PM »

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What's the difference between the majority of American Catholics and the majority of Catholics?  Are you making an assumption that those lukewarm American Catholics aren't real Catholics?
 

Well there are 1 billion Catholics in the world, only 26 million of them live in the United States, so even if every single American Catholic supported abortion, it still wouldn't be a majority of Catholics.

As for American Catholics, I never said they aren't real Catholics, its just a fact that many of them are lukewarm on a wide range of issues, and most American Catholics, well honestly most Catholics, ignore at least some teaching of the Church, whether it be gay marriage, abortion, birth control, the death penalty, or premarital sex.

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100% pro-life?  I happen to know quite a few practicing Catholics (although maybe they're not Catholic enough for you) who are pro-choice.


As do I, and they surely are not ignorant to the teaching of the Church on abortion, they know that the Church teaches abortion is murder, but they simply don't care, "women's rights" come before the teaching of the Church for them.

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The Church isn't a democracy.


Sadly, too many Catholics haven't figured that out yet.

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Everyone knows that the Catholic Churches teaches abortion is a sin.  It's not that they don't know the Church's position but rather that they don't accept the teaching authority of the Church.  


If you know that the Church teaches abortion is a sin, and you support it anyway, you are commiting a sin. To commit a mortal sin you don't have to believe its wrong, you just must know its wrong, otherwise no one would sin, because every sinner justifies their sins.

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If they accepted the Church's authority, they wouldn't be pro-choice, obviously.
 

That is why pro-choice Catholics are not good Catholics, they refuse to accept the teaching of the Church.

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Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent.


Yes full knowledge that it is a sin. And as you have said everyone knows that the Catholic Church teaches abortion is a sin. And every Catholic should know that supporting or encouraging a sin, is a sin!

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The catechism says that there must be knowledge of the sinful character of the act.


Right. The vast majority Pro-Choice Catholics know that the Church teaches abortion is murder and a sin, yet they don't care, or they don't think the Church can infringe upon "women's rights".  

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For example, it is a mortal to reject baptism but someone who doesn't know the necessity of baptism has not committed a mortal sin for refusing baptism.  


True, but you yourself have said that everyone knows that the Catholic Church teaches abortion is murder and a sin.

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You need to be careful about throwing around the term "mortal sin."  Mortal sin is an incredibly serious offense.  We should be horrified at the prospect of mortal sin.
 

Yes we should, but honestly Jesus and Mary are the only two who haven't commited a mortal sin. We are all sinners! We all need calvary!

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Like I wrote earlier, I know a good very conservative priest who is an excellent confessor.  He's been a priest for almost 25 years.  He sincerely believes that most people are not capable of committing mortal sins.  He formed that opinion after listening to people's confessions for 25 years.  He's a good and holy priest and very conservative but he doesn't believe that most people are deliberately rejecting God's law with complete knowledge and assent to the consequences.  


Well my priest has been a priest for 32 years and totally disagrees. Priests have fallible opinions just like the rest of us. Every priest has a different expirence.
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2004, 11:03:44 PM »


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So if, God forbid, you had died while you were ignoring the Church's teaching, would you go to hell?  Do you believe you were commiting a mortal sin for ignoring the Church's teaching?
 

Yes I was commiting a mortal sin, and every priest I have spoken with have told me that, and I have spoken with some liberal priests! But thank God I repented of this and confessed it. Unfortunately, if I would have died supporting the murder of innocent children, I think I would have gone to Hell, but I leave those things up to God.

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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2004, 11:20:47 PM »

Yay! According to NARAL, Colorado gets a D+ on Abortion rights: http://www.naral.org/yourstate/whodecides/states/colorado/index.cfm . 78% of Colorado counties have no abortion provider, thank God! Hmmm perhaps I should move to Louisiana, which got an F, where 92% of the counties have no abortion provider. Interesting, ya'll should chek out your state.
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2004, 11:23:56 PM »

Jennifer,

the solution: don't be average.

-Matt
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2004, 12:12:30 AM »

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Interesting, ya'll should chek out your state.

Didn't need to go to the site to know my state would come up as an "A".  :'(

~*Donna, living in NY for 20 years.
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2004, 12:19:44 AM »

Didn't need to go to the site to know my state would come up as an "A".  :'(

~*Donna, living in NY for 20 years.

Prayers! When you think of how many have been killed, I mean its amazing, we gotta pray, but ya'll know that!
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2004, 12:22:59 AM »

Whoa I have said "ya'll" in my last two posts in this thread. Wow that can't be a good sign.
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2004, 12:52:43 AM »

 
If you know that the Church teaches abortion is a sin, and you support it anyway, you are commiting a sin. To commit a mortal sin you don't have to believe its wrong, you just must know its wrong, otherwise no one would sin, because every sinner justifies their sins.  

No, read your catechism.  In order to commit a mortal sin you must have "full knowledge and complete consent."  The catechism says that there must be "consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice."  

Knowing it.s wrong and believing it's wrong are the same thing.  Knowing its wrong and knowing that the Catholic Church says its wrong are not the same thing.  For example, I know that Judaism teaches that it's a sin to eat pork but I don't 'know' that it's wrong because I don't believe that it's wrong.  Likewise a Jew knows that the Catholic Church teaches it's wrong not to be baptized but a Jew doesn't believe that it's wrong not to be baptized so the Jew doesn't know that it's wrong not to be baptized.  Now you and I, being Catholics, know that it's wrong not to be baptized.  Therefore if you or I rejected baptism it would be a mortal sin, however, it is not a mortal sin for a Jew to reject baptism.  

I never said that no one sinned.  The Catholic Church classifies sin into venial and mortal.  According to the catechism, one commits a venial sin when the sin is one of a grave matter committed without full knowledge or without full consent.  Getting back to my Jewish example.  Arguably the Jew who refuses baptism is commiting a venial sin if he is aware of the teachings of Christianity.  Someone who knows the truth and rejects it is as you say "justifying" their sin.  Similarly the Catholic who doesn't really accept the teaching authority of the Church is also committing a venial sin because they are ignoring their conscience.  

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That is why pro-choice Catholics are not good Catholics, they refuse to accept the teaching of the Church.

I never said they were good Catholics, just uninformed Catholics.  

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Yes full knowledge that it is a sin. And as you have said everyone knows that the Catholic Church teaches abortion is a sin. And every Catholic should know that supporting or encouraging a sin, is a sin!

Take birth control for example.  Everyone knows that the Church teaches that using artificial birth control is a mortal sin.  However, that doesn't mean that everyone 'knows' that using artificial birth control is a mortal sin.  For someone who knows what the Church teaches to 'know' that artificial birth control is a mortal sin they must believe the Church's teaching is dogma and must be obeyed.  Like I wrote earlier, I know Judaism teaches it's a sin to eat pork but I don't 'know' it's a sin to eat pork.  

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Right. The vast majority Pro-Choice Catholics know that the Church teaches abortion is murder and a sin, yet they don't care, or they don't think the Church can infringe upon "women's rights".  

First, if they believe the Church can't infringe upon "women's rights," then they don't accept the Church's authority and therefore can't know that what the Church says is wrong is really wrong.  

Second, purposefully ignoring the Church's teachings can be a mortal sin if there is full knowledge and consent.  So someone who believes with 100% of faith that the Church is the Church but yet rejects it, commits a mortal sin.  On the other hand, someone who rejects the Church's authority because they don't believe in the Church 100% doesn't have full knowledge, e.g. how can the Jew have full knowledge and consent for rejecting baptism?  

Take another example, the Church teaches that it is a mortal sin to go into schism.  You participate in an Orthodox board indicating an interest in Orthodoxy.  If you believe completely that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church and that submission to the pope is absolutely necessary for salvation, conversion to Orthodoxy would be a mortal sin.  However, if you, like all of the former Catholics here, come to believe that the Roman Catholic Church isn't the real Catholic Church then even if you're wrong you're not commiting the mortal sin of schism.  

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True, but you yourself have said that everyone knows that the Catholic Church teaches abortion is murder and a sin.  

Again, the Jew knows that Catholics say it's necessary to be baptized but do they 'know' that not being baptized is a sin?  

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Yes we should, but honestly Jesus and Mary are the only two who haven't commited a mortal sin. We are all sinners! We all need calvary!

No.  First, you have a photo of St. Therese on your avatar.  St. Therese never committed a mortal sin.  Second, lack of mortal sin doesn't mean we don't need calvary or that we're not sinners.  

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Well my priest has been a priest for 32 years and totally disagrees. Priests have fallible opinions just like the rest of us. Every priest has a different expirence.

I think you probably misunderstand your priest's position.  Does your priest believe that a Jew is commiting a mortal sin by refusing to be baptized?  

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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2004, 01:13:21 AM »

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No, read your catechism.  In order to commit a mortal sin you must have "full knowledge and complete consent."  The catechism says that there must be "consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice."
 

I still think that if you know that the Church condemns abortion, and you as a Catholic, ignore this and support abortion, then you are commiting a mortal sin. This of course doesn't apply to Non-Catholics who honestly look at the Church as some organization trying to live in the pass and take away the right of every woman to have an abortion. If you are a Catholic, you must obey the Catholic Church, to refuse to do this, when knowing that you must obey the Church, you are commiting a mortal sin.

So if a Jew rejected the need for baptism, they are not commiting a mortal sin, because they are not Catholics and they do not understand the need for baptism, they don't have full knowledge, but a Catholic who knows abortion is a sin or that it is wrong, and supports abortion anyway, that is a mortal sin. And a Catholic may personally think abortion is right and know that the Church teaches the opposite, that is possible.

When I was pro-choice, I really thought it was the right thing, but I knew that the Catholic Church taught it was wrong and a very serious sin, but I honestly didn't care at the time, niether did all of my pro-choice friends, many fo whom were Catholic. We all knew that the Church taught abortion was evil, wrong, and murder, but we trusted our own fallible opinions, and not the teaching of the infallible Church.

Pro-choice Catholic who know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and must be obeyed, and know that abortion is considered a serious sin and evil by the Church, but they refuse to recant of their support for abortion, are commiting mortal sin. See they may not personally agree with the teaching of the Church, but they know what the teaching of the Church is  and they know they should, as Catholics, obey it, but they refuse to do so. That is a mortal sin.

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So someone who believes with 100% of faith that the Church is the Church but yet rejects it, commits a mortal sin.  On the other hand, someone who rejects the Church's authority because they don't believe in the Church 100% doesn't have full knowledge, e.g. how can the Jew have full knowledge and consent for rejecting baptism?  


The problem is that pro-choice Catholics claim they are good Catholics, or that being pro-choice doesn't effect their Catholicism. As Catholics, they believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, like Kerry or Ted Kennedy or Schwarzenegger, yet they refuse to accept the teaching of the Church. Pro-Choice Catholics, at least the many I know and have spoken to in person and on the internet, believe 100% that the Catholic Church is the true Church, yet they reject the teachings of what they believe to be the true Church, that is clearly a mortal sin.

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First, you have a photo of St. Therese on your avatar.


Nope, sorry you are mistaken. My avatar is a pic of Edith Stein, when she became a name she took on the name "Sister Theresa Benedicta of the Cross", and that was the name used in her beatification and canonization. I am surprised you thought it was Saint Therese! Saint Therese died at a very young age, and the woman in the photo that is my avatar is an adult, perhaps in her 30's, Saint Therese didn't even survive her 20's!

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St. Therese never committed a mortal sin.
 

I have never heard that, and don't believe that. If I am not mistaken Trent taught that every human being accept Mary and Jesus commited a mortal sin, of some type, I'll have to check on that though.

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Second, lack of mortal sin doesn't mean we don't need calvary or that we're not sinners.  I think you probably misunderstand your priest's position.  Does your priest believe that a Jew is commiting a mortal sin by refusing to be baptized?  


My point was that a mortal sin isn't a rare thing, everyone commits some type of mortal sin. Every religion has rules, whats right and wrong, and many of them are in line with Catholic morals, its not like only Catholics can commit a mortal sin. But you do bring up a good point that I'll have to think on. I mean lets say a person grew up in a culture that didn't have sin, just the basics of don't kill and don't steal, and thats all they knew to be wrong, there is a good chance that they could never commit a sin knowing its a sin, I'll look it up:)

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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2004, 01:42:41 AM »

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Yay! According to NARAL, Colorado gets a D+ on Abortion rights: www.naral.org/yourstate/whodec...orado/index.cfm . 78% of Colorado counties have no abortion provider, thank God! Hmmm perhaps I should move to Louisiana, which got an F, where 92% of the counties have no abortion provider. Interesting, ya'll should chek out your state.

WoW!!!! Take a look at Mississippi!!!! 98% abortion free. They also got an "F" from naral. Looks like Missourri comes in a close second at 97% with an "F" grade also. Way to go Miss. & MO!!!!! I'm not too surprised by those two states rejecting  secularism. Mississippi voted overwhelmingly (including 40% of the black population) to keep the Confederate Flag for thier official state flag to the shagrin  of the out of state agitators. Missouri, a state that I'll probably be moving to soon is staunchly conservative & pro - life. I remember my first time there being in shock at all the pro life billboards in public places. Sure felt like being in a foriegn country to me. You just don't ever see that in California. It's amazing how certain parts of the country can be so drastically different. I don't think we could attempt to put up pro life billboards where I live. It would probably attract too many mean faced, clipp haired liberal women & feminine men demanding it be taken down.    

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The problem is that pro-choice Catholics claim they are good Catholics, or that being pro-choice doesn't effect their Catholicism. As Catholics, they believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, like Kerry or Ted Kennedy or Schwarzenegger, yet they refuse to accept the teaching of the Church. Pro-Choice Catholics, at least the many I know and have spoken to in person and on the internet, believe 100% that the Catholic Church is the true Church, yet they reject the teachings of what they believe to be the true Church, that is clearly a mortal sin.

Here, Here.... I'm not sure why the RC hasn't done away with these guys yet. They are so unpopular among "real" Catholics. Go over to Catholic.Com which is the biggest Catholic online forum & take a look at the poll they have between Bush & Kerry. Bush is running 85% to Kerry's 5% LoL!!!!!!!!! It looks like the Kerry"ites" and the rest of the ilk in that "Party" that claim to be RC aren't too popular among those that take their faith seriously.  Tsk Tsk, when will all these boys & girls who claim to be Catholic grow up and take their faith of their fathers seriously.
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2004, 01:48:25 AM »

It is a shame that the American Catholic Bishops aren't doing more about all of these pro-Choice Catholics, esp those elected officals, like Kerry or Schwarzenegger. Only two bishops to my knowledge have actually excommunicated all pro-choice, pro-euthanaisa, or pro-gaymarriage individuals, or any one who supports politicians supporting any of those issues. And one of them is in Colorado! Yay for my state!
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2004, 01:58:03 AM »

 

I still think that if you know that the Church condemns abortion, and you as a Catholic, ignore this and support abortion, then you are commiting a mortal sin. This of course doesn't apply to Non-Catholics who honestly look at the Church as some organization trying to live in the pass and take away the right of every woman to have an abortion. If you are a Catholic, you must obey the Catholic Church, to refuse to do this, when knowing that you must obey the Church, you are commiting a mortal sin.

Yes but there are Catholics who look at the Church as "some organization trying to live in the past...."  The majority of Catholics that I know (even practicing Catholics) don't honestly believe that the Church must be obeyed.  Honestly, why would anyone who believed that the Church was the true Church disobey the Church?  It's not a rational choice.  

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So if a Jew rejected the need for baptism, they are not commiting a mortal sin, because they are not Catholics and they do not understand the need for baptism, they don't have full knowledge, but a Catholic who knows abortion is a sin or that it is wrong, and supports abortion anyway, that is a mortal sin. And a Catholic may personally think abortion is right and know that the Church teaches the opposite, that is possible.

You still misunderstand me.  There are many Catholics, perhaps even the majority, who do not really believe the Church is what it claims to be.  So when the Church says "abortion is wrong" they view it in the same light as when Judaism says "eating pork is wrong."  They simply don't believe it.  

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When I was pro-choice, I really thought it was the right thing, but I knew that the Catholic Church taught it was wrong and a very serious sin, but I honestly didn't care at the time, niether did all of my pro-choice friends, many fo whom were Catholic. We all knew that the Church taught abortion was evil, wrong, and murder, but we trusted our own fallible opinions, and not the teaching of the infallible Church.

First, habit and immaturity can lessen the culpability for sin.  Did you not care because you didn't think that what the Church taught was important?  Or did you not care because you wanted to do the opposite of good?  Under the Church's definition of mortal sin, the latter is a mortal sin while the former is a venial sin.  Someone who knows that someone is against God and will separate them from God but who willingly does it anyway commits a mortal sin.  Someone who does something wrong but doesn't believe that it's really against God or really that serious doesn't have the state of mind necessary for a mortal sin.  

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Pro-choice Catholic who know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and must be obeyed, and know that abortion is considered a serious sin and evil by the Church, but they refuse to recant of their support for abortion, are commiting mortal sin. See they may not personally agree with the teaching of the Church, but they know what the teaching of the Church is  and they know they should, as Catholics, obey it, but they refuse to do so. That is a mortal sin.

What about a Catholic 5 year old?  Or a Catholic who is retarded?  Do they know they should obey the Church?  

I argue that the average American doesn't know that they should obey the Church's teachings.  They know the Church claims that they should obey but they don't 'know' they should obey.  Just like I know that Judaism says you can't eat pork but I don't know that you can't eat pork.  

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The problem is that pro-choice Catholics claim they are good Catholics, or that being pro-choice doesn't effect their Catholicism. As Catholics, they believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, like Kerry or Ted Kennedy or Schwarzenegger, yet they refuse to accept the teaching of the Church. Pro-Choice Catholics, at least the many I know and have spoken to in person and on the internet, believe 100% that the Catholic Church is the true Church, yet they reject the teachings of what they believe to be the true Church, that is clearly a mortal sin.

Do you really believe that Kerry or Kennedy believe that they have to accept the teaching of the Church?  

These Catholics who believe the Church is the true Church, how do they explain their pro-choice beliefs?  Let's take a wild gues...the Church is old-fashioned and sexist.  Okay, but how can a sexist or old-fashioned organization because the bride of Christ?  The truth is that they, despite what they claim, do not believe in the authority of the Church?  

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Nope, sorry you are mistaken. My avatar is a pic of Edith Stein, when she became a name she took on the name "Sister Theresa Benedicta of the Cross", and that was the name used in her beatification and canonization. I am surprised you thought it was Saint Therese! Saint Therese died at a very young age, and the woman in the photo that is my avatar is an adult, perhaps in her 30's, Saint Therese didn't even survive her 20's!  

I have never heard that, and don't believe that. If I am not mistaken Trent taught that every human being accept Mary and Jesus commited a mortal sin, of some type, I'll have to check on that though.

Trent most certainly didn't teach that only Mary and Jesus were without mortal sin.  You're confusing mortal sin with original sin and venial sin.  St. Therese was told in confession that she had never committed a mortal sin.  http://www.ewtn.com/therese/carmel.htm

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My point was that a mortal sin isn't a rare thing, everyone commits some type of mortal sin. Every religion has rules, whats right and wrong, and many of them are in line with Catholic morals, its not like only Catholics can commit a mortal sin. But you do bring up a good point that I'll have to think on. I mean lets say a person grew up in a culture that didn't have sin, just the basics of don't kill and don't steal, and thats all they knew to be wrong, there is a good chance that they could never commit a sin knowing its a sin, I'll look it up:)

The Church teaches violating a moral law is a mortal sin if done with the correct intent regardless of the person's culture because moral law is natural law.  For example, someone who aborts their child, regardless of their culture, knows that it's a serious sin because it's against natural law.  No one has to teach us natural law.  On the other hand, the teaching authority of the Church is not part of natural law.  

There is a fundamental difference between having an abortion or carrying out an abortion and not caring that much about abortion.  

The thing to remember is that sin is very personal.  The Church says certain acts are mortal sins but qualifies it by saying that those acts must be performed in a certain state of mind.  We are encouraged to seek guidance from a confessor about whether something is a mortal sin or not.  

Let me give another example, I was raised a Catholic and was taught that it was a mortal sin to miss Mass.  I stopped going to Mass when I was in college.  Certainly my state of mind for missing Mass during that time is fundamentally different than my state of mind for missing Mass now.  It would be 100 times more serious for me to miss Mass now than then because now I really believe the Church has authority over me.  I didn't really believe it then.  I called myself a Catholic and I knew what the Church taught but I didn't believe it in my heart.  So when I didn't get up on sunday morning, I wasn't turning my face on God knowing with complete knowledge that I was separating myself from God.  That's what mortal sin requires.  One of my CCD teachers explained the difference between mortal and venial sin this way.  A venial sin was turning away from Jesus on the cross.  A mortal sin was pounding the nails into his hands.  The idea being that a mortal sin requires a desire to separate from God.  Or a desire to hurt God.
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2004, 02:33:31 AM »

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Yes but there are Catholics who look at the Church as "some organization trying to live in the past...."  The majority of Catholics that I know (even practicing Catholics) don't honestly believe that the Church must be obeyed.


Very sad, but I must admit that it is true. Many Catholics reject many dogmas and doctrines of the Church, and they just don't care.

 
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Honestly, why would anyone who believed that the Church was the true Church disobey the Church?


I don't know. People do it all the time!

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There are many Catholics, perhaps even the majority, who do not really believe the Church is what it claims to be.


I understand what you are saying, and though I don't think the majority of Catholics believe this, many do. But the fact that they remain Catholic, and recieve the sacraments, but do not believe the Church is the true Church is a very very serious sin, even if they don't think what they are doing is wrong, it is still very serious.

Its like Protestants who don't baptize their children until they are like 11 or 12, though they are not commiting a formal mortal sin, because they have no idea infants must be baptized, it is still very very serious, because according to Catholic teaching those who die without baptism, either by water, desire, or blood, go to Hell, and those children who die without baptism go to limbo.

So though being a pro-choice Catholic may not be a mortal sin, if they don't think they have to obey the Church, or if they don't think the Church is the true Church, what they are doing is very serious, and has serious conseqences. But all of the pro-choice Catholics I know, believe the Catholic Church to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and even Kerry has said he believes the Catholic Church to be the true Church. And yet they refuse to obey the Church.

Yes, I admit there are some who think the Church is just a fallible organization, but I know pro-choice Catholics, many of whom are very devout, who believe the Church to be the true Church, but refuse to obey Church teching. And I know that Kerry and his wife and many other pro-choice Catholic politicians have said they believe the Catholic Church to be the true Church, but that Church leaders can't tell Kerry what to do even though they knows that doctrinally the Church can, lol that is cleary disobediance.

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First, habit and immaturity can lessen the culpability for sin.  Did you not care because you didn't think that what the Church taught was important?  Or did you not care because you wanted to do the opposite of good?


I didn't care because I thought it was a woman's right, I thought, as do all the pro-choice Catholics that I know, that the Church is the true Church, but that the Church couldn't tell a woman what to do with her body, and I didn't think abortion was that important, even though I knew the Church taught it was murder. I was commiting a mortal sin, and no matter what you say, over a dozen priests have told me I did, even the most liberal of the liberal.

If you know what the Church teaches, and if you know that Church is the true Church and that you must obey its teachings, and if you know what you are doing is against the teachings of the Church, and still refuse to submit to the authority of the Church, you are commiting a serious mortal sin.

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What about a Catholic 5 year old?  Or a Catholic who is retarded?  Do they know they should obey the Church?
 

To the best of their ability, yes.

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Do you really believe that Kerry or Kennedy believe that they have to accept the teaching of the Church?  


They believe the Catholic Church to be the true Church, and for them to knowingly disobey the true Church is a very serious sin. And for Catholics, like you and I, who know that the teaching of the Church must be accepted, to support them is also a very serious, or mortal, sin.

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These Catholics who believe the Church is the true Church, how do they explain their pro-choice beliefs?

"It's not the job of the Church leaders to tell us how to vote, to tell women what to do with their body."

Thats what get when I ask pro-Choice Catholics who they can be pro-choice and still believe the CC to be the true Church.

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Trent most certainly didn't teach that only Mary and Jesus were without mortal sin.
 

Like I said, I'll look it up.

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St. Therese was told in confession that she had never committed a mortal sin.  http://www.ewtn.com/therese/carmel.htm


Wow, I haven't heard this before. But still you got my avatar wrong! Tongue tsk tsk!

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Church teaches violating a moral law is a mortal sin if done with the correct intent regardless of the person's culture because moral law is natural law.  For example, someone who aborts their child, regardless of their culture, knows that it's a serious sin because it's against natural law.  No one has to teach us natural law.  On the other hand, the teaching authority of the Church is not part of natural law.
 

Not all people who abort babies know it is a sin. Many women who have had abortions or support abortions, do not believe it is murder, in my expirence, they believe it is a womens right, and that there is nothing wrong with it.

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There is a fundamental difference between having an abortion or carrying out an abortion and not caring that much about abortion.  


If you know that abortion is murder and that murder is wrong, or if you know that the Catholic Church is the true Church and must be obeyed, and you don't care about abortion, you are guilty of a very very serious mortal sin.

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The thing to remember is that sin is very personal.
 

Yes, you are very right.

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The Church says certain acts are mortal sins but qualifies it by saying that those acts must be performed in a certain state of mind.  We are encouraged to seek guidance from a confessor about whether something is a mortal sin or not.  


Once again I totally agree with you.

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A mortal sin was pounding the nails into his hands.  The idea being that a mortal sin requires a desire to separate from God.  Or a desire to hurt God.  



I disagree.

For example when I was younger I stole a candy bar from the store. I knew what I was doing was very very wrong, I knew it was a serious sin, but I did it anyway, but in no way did I want to hurt God, yes I did know it was a serious sin, but my intention was not to anger or hurt God, my intention was to get a candy bar!

There are many examples in my own life where I have commited serious sins, knowing that they were very serious but doing it anyway, but didn't necessarily doing it to hurt God.

I have never done something just to hurt God! Who would actually do something to hurt God? Who would wake up and say "I'm gunna do that because it hurts God, because it angers him, because it cuts me off from him"?

You can commit a mortal sin and not have the intention of hurting or hating God. You can commit a serious sin, knowing its a serious sin but doing it anyway, without having the intention of hurting God.
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2004, 09:40:58 AM »

The Orthodox priest who received me explained an idea of sin similar to what Jennifer is explaining here.  Although Orthodoxy does not use the categories venial and mortal, nevertheless the reality is that there are sins that are in themselves excommunicatory (which, in effect, are like Catholic mortal sins) and those that are not, and the former are a very small group of sins indeed, and done with the requisite knowledge and intention.  

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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2004, 10:19:31 AM »




They believe the Catholic Church to be the true Church, and for them to knowingly disobey the true Church is a very serious sin. And for Catholics, like you and I, who know that the teaching of the Church must be accepted, to support them is also a very serious, or mortal, sin."It's not the job of the Church leaders to tell us how to vote, to tell women what to do with their body."

You're putting too much stock in what people say.  Look to their actions for a better indication of their beliefs.  If they believed that the Church was infallible then they would believe the Church had the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.  How could an infallible organization not have that right?  

The Kennedys, and Kerrys of the world, along with the majority of American Catholics, don't believe the Church is what it claims to be.  It's very simple, really, if you believe it then you're obedient, if you don't believe it, then you're disobedient.  

As for your pro-choice opponents.  I'd ask them, how an infallible organization organized by God himself and given the power by God himself to teach on faith and morals can not have the right to condemn abortion?  Can an infallible organization be wrong about faith and morals?  That's the rub.  They don't believe the Church has authority.  

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Not all people who abort babies know it is a sin. Many women who have had abortions or support abortions, do not believe it is murder, in my expirence, they believe it is a womens right, and that there is nothing wrong with it.  

No, they know it's a sin even if no one has told them it's a sin.  Abortion is against natural law and every human being with the ability to reason knows natural law.  People can ignore what they know.  They can rationalize their disobedience but if they have the ability to reason they 'know' natural law.  

As for those who 'support' abortion, natural law is about specific acts.  It's not hypothetical situations.  A woman in an abortion clinic getting an abortion knows in her heart that it's wrong.  A woman thinking hypothetically about abortion doesn't have the same level of culpability.  

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For example when I was younger I stole a candy bar from the store. I knew what I was doing was very very wrong, I knew it was a serious sin, but I did it anyway, but in no way did I want to hurt God, yes I did know it was a serious sin, but my intention was not to anger or hurt God, my intention was to get a candy bar!

There are many examples in my own life where I have commited serious sins, knowing that they were very serious but doing it anyway, but didn't necessarily doing it to hurt God.

I have never done something just to hurt God! Who would actually do something to hurt God? Who would wake up and say "I'm gunna do that because it hurts God, because it angers him, because it cuts me off from him"?

That's why this priest believes that maybe only priests are capable of committing a mortal sin.  Mortal sin is incredibly serious.  It cuts the person off from God's grace.  It requires an intention to be cut off from God's grace.  Mortal requires full knowledge meaning that it requires full knowledge of the consequences and the belief that they will actually occur.  

Say for example that you're speeding and therefore can't stop at the intersection and run into another car and seriously injure the other driver.  Intentionally causing serious injury is a mortal sin.  Now you took drivers' ed and know that the faster you're driving the harder it is to stop.  Therefore you knew that hitting another car was a possible consequence of speeding.  But did you know for certain that you would hit driver X and seriously injure him?  Contrast this with a scenario where you have a gun that's fully loaded and you aim it another person.  You know that the bullet will leave your gun and enter the body of the other person causing serious injury.  Say you pull the trigger and there's a malfunction.  Does that mean there's no mortal sin?  No.  You knew the consequences would occur as a result of your actions.  Obviously there's a huge difference between the person who drives recklessly knowing there's a possibility of injuring another person and the person who pulls the trigger of a loaded gun while aiming at another person.  

See the following from the Summa about how a mortal sin can become venial.  
http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FS/FS088.html#FSQ88A6THEP1

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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2004, 10:43:53 AM »

Jennifer,

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A very conservative RC priest once told me that he doubted whether anyone but a priest was capable of commiting a mortal sin because of the awareness required.

According to St.Paul, the presence of the law of God which gives awareness of sin; it underlines it.

However, we shouldn't conclude then that the receiving of the law of God is a bad thing - as if men would be better of being left without it.  According to the same Apostle, men naturally have a "law" grafted into their nature - and reason, which allows them to see the evidences of God and His order in the natural universe.  As St.John of Kronstadt taught, the creation is an image of the eternal mind of God.

Thus, though in one sense knowledge of the law of God actually increases our moral culpability when we do trespass, on the other hand it removes many of the excuses we may come up with when we claim ignorance, when the truth is deep down we know we are in the wrong.

And of course, another thing - just as with the law comes the underlining of sin, also comes the possibility of salvation.  Only the man who knows clearly he is in darkness, can perceive his need of God's mercy and grab hold of it when it dawns upon him.

Thus, if the curses of the law are not so severely applied to those who dwell in darkness, another more tragic thing needs to be said - the Light of the Divine majesty is even more foreign to them.

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« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2004, 10:53:53 AM »

Jennifer,

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No, read your catechism.  In order to commit a mortal sin you must have "full knowledge and complete consent."  The catechism says that there must be "consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice."

On the whole, I can live with the basic distinction the RCC makes between "mortal" and "veniel" sins.  However I think the emphasis should be on what makes a sin "mortal", and not simply giving lists of "mortal" and "veniel" sins (since sometimes even small things can be done with great malice.)

With that said, even if somebody really is oblivious to how grievously wrong their ideas and activities are in a given area, there is something which they can be said to err in despite all of this: their obligation to seek truth, and inform their consciences.

Such discernment is a uniquely human activity, pointing to the spiritual nature of man's soul; and points to a destiny which for us still awaiting the ressurection remains unfulfilled.  To not be concerned with such things, is to be living in a basically un-human way.  Even simpletons and small children ask "why?", can receive instruction appropriate to their intelligence, or even without this find themselves looking to the Heavens.

Those who are just lazy, dwelling in the mediocrity of conventional wisdom in a godless age, will not be acquitted - according to the Holy Writ, the Lord is going to "vomit" them out.

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« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2004, 11:05:50 AM »

re: liberal "pro-gay" and "pro-choice" style groups are coming to the Orthodox world, just wait.

While the social climate did contribute in large part to why such groups have proliferated in the RCC over the last few decades, I think something more fundamental within the RCC is to blame; namely the spirit of accomodation to the world which characterized the Second Vatican Council, and the reforms to the life of the RCC which flowed from this.

This invited such "creativity" into the realms of theology and morals; it also caused those who might not be so whacked out with liberal ideas, to take little interest in nipping these things in the bud.  The fact is, if the people did not begin perceiving the post Vatican II RCC as a "newly democratized, softer, gentler" institution, an institution which has now paused to re-evaluate everything in it's life, including dogmas, this wouldn't have happened.

The inherent traditionalism of Orthodoxy is a safeguard against such liberality, particularly in the liturgical life.  These qualities were lost in the post-Vatican II RCC, which in part explains why the RCC is now such a mess (and I'm not even talking about the scandals that have come to the spotlight in recent years; to me this is simply a symptom, not the real problem.)

However, I would agree with Dcn.Lance that Orthodox Christians shouldn't be too cocky.  The fact is that in the 20th century, there have been profound liberalizing undercurrents in Orthodoxy, which at various times actually managed to do quite a bit of damage.

Whether it be the popularity of the Sophianist heresy (and the popularity of it's proponents, like Vladimir Soloviev) amongst those dubbed the "Paris school", the perversions of Orthopraxis in the west in the name of "ecumenism" and more often than not "accomodation to human weakness", or the theological modernism often latent in much of what calls itself the "patristic revival" or the quasi-renovationism of certain "well esteemed Orthodox scholars" of recent memory, whose books still remain quite popular in many Orthodox (including seminary) bookstore shelves...all of these are backdoors to something similar to what has taken hold of the RCC.

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« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2004, 11:25:56 AM »

Everyone who is "pro-choice" was at least allowed the dignity of being born.  Smiley

Let's not use the term "pro-choice."  It's supposed to represent that women's bodies are their own, and they can do with them what they want.  (but think about it.... are our bodies our own, or are we made in God's image, and called to uphold that)    

What about prostitution?  IV drug abuse?  Suicide?  These acts also should fall under the "pro-choice" moniker since they are acts to (or against) one's own body.......   Any "pro-choice" lobby should also be in favor of legal prostitution, legal IV drug abuse, etc., etc.

The "pro-choice" terminology was a clever marketing tool developed by the pro-abortion lobbyists in the 1960's and 70's.  (they knew damn well that "pro-abortion" or whatever other term would never fly with most hardworking, God-loving Americans, but "pro-choice" goes along with American principles of freedom....)   The more we use the term, the more we fall into their trap.  Why go there?
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2004, 10:13:30 PM »


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You're putting too much stock in what people say.  Look to their actions for a better indication of their beliefs.


I will believe what people say about there faith, more than your own opinions and interpretations of their faith and actions.

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If they believed that the Church was infallible then they would believe the Church had the right to tell women what to do with their bodies.  How could an infallible organization not have that right?  


Many Pro-Choice Catholics believe the Catholic Church is infallible and the true Church, however they don't believe the Church's teaching on abortion is an infallible one. Their main argument is that over the centuries that Church has not been 100% against abortion and that it wasn't until recently that the Church has taken a stance against all forms of abortion, and there is some truth to that, historicaly speaking. So really pro-choice Catholics, well at least the many that I know, don't deny that the Church is infallible, they just differ with the pro-life Catholics as to whether the Church's teaching on abortion is infallible and must be obeyed or not.

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The Kennedys, and Kerrys of the world, along with the majority of American Catholics, don't believe the Church is what it claims to be.  It's very simple, really, if you believe it then you're obedient, if you don't believe it, then you're disobedient.
 

I don't think the majority of Catholics deny or reject that the Catholic Church is the true infallible Church, I think that where the Church is infallible, and where it isn't, is where Catholics, esp American Catholics, differ. I have never met a Pro-Choice Catholic who rejects the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption, they agree that the Church is infallible in doctrinal matters, just not when "they tell a woman what to do with their body."

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As for your pro-choice opponents.  I'd ask them, how an infallible organization organized by God himself and given the power by God himself to teach on faith and morals can not have the right to condemn abortion?
 

Becuase they believe, with some historical proof, that the Church has not always condemned abortion, and always hasn't taken a totally pro-life stance.

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Can an infallible organization be wrong about faith and morals?
 

I agree with you, but you can take that a little too far. Bishops can make mistakes, they can even be heretics, and even the vast majority of the magisterium can teach heresy, there a several examples of this in Church History. The Church's offical dogmas and doctrines can't be wrong, if the Church is infallible, but the magisterium, or most of it, can teach heresy.

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They don't believe the Church has authority
.  

Right, when it comes to a woman's body. But they do believe the Church has the aurthority to tell them what or how to believe when it comes to doctrinal and dogmatic issues.

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Abortion is against natural law and every human being with the ability to reason knows natural law.  People can ignore what they know.  They can rationalize their disobedience but if they have the ability to reason they 'know' natural law.  


Jennifer, I am very close to women who have had abortions, and most of them believe they did absolutely nothing wrong. They had abortions with in the first few weeks of their pregnancy, and truly believe they just had a blob of tissue removed, they in no way think it was a human being, or that murder occured, and these are people I am very close with. They see nothing wrong with what they did.

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A woman in an abortion clinic getting an abortion knows in her heart that it's wrong.

I am sorry, but not in my expirence.

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 A woman thinking hypothetically about abortion doesn't have the same level of culpability
.  

Now that I agree with.

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That's why this priest believes that maybe only priests are capable of committing a mortal sin
.

So then following that logic, I assume he refuses to hear confessions? Catholics can confess whatever they want in confession, but must only confess Mortal sins, if only priests can committ mortal sins, then only priests should go to confession.

And as I said in one of my earlier posts, priests are not infallible, they each have their own expirence. And as I also said, my priest, who has been a priest for 32 years, totally disagrees, and does believe we can committ mortal sins, and that we do!

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Mortal sin is incredibly serious.  It cuts the person off from God's grace.  It requires an intention to be cut off from God's grace.  Mortal requires full knowledge meaning that it requires full knowledge of the consequences and the belief that they will actually occur.  


Who in the world would do something just to hurt God? Just out of a deep hate for God?

If you committ a serious sin, and you know that it is a very serious sin, but you do it anyway, you have committed a moratl sin. You must have full knowledge that it is a sin, but you just do it anyway. As I have said there are so many times in my life where I have committed very serious sins, knowing that they were very serious sins but doing it anyway, but not with the specific intention of hurting God, or to somehow show that I hate him.

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Say for example that you're speeding and therefore can't stop at the intersection and run into another car and seriously injure the other driver.  Intentionally causing serious injury is a mortal sin.  Now you took drivers' ed and know that the faster you're driving the harder it is to stop.  Therefore you knew that hitting another car was a possible consequence of speeding.  But did you know for certain that you would hit driver X and seriously injure him?


But see that person couldn't stop. Now if that person intentially ran into another car, just to hurt the other person, knowing that it was very wrong to do so, has committed a mortal sin, even if they didn't do it to hurt God, or show their hate for him.

There is a difference between doing something and knowing the possible consequences, and doing something so that the consequences with happen. For example if run with a knife, knowing that you could fall and hurt yourself, and accidently falling and killing yourself, is way different than running with the knife, hoping you would fall, so that you would die.
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