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Author Topic: Would a Council Be Necessary?  (Read 23585 times) Average Rating: 0
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Linus7
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« Reply #135 on: May 19, 2004, 08:24:52 AM »

Then the only option for an EO is to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the Oriental Orthodox are indeed what they were accused of being: Christological heretics.  If the OO can be proven to be such, then yes, Chalcedon has been received by the whole Church.  However, if the OO can be shown beyond reasonable doubt to not be Christological heretics, but rather believers in the same Orthodox faith, albeit expressed differently, then Chalcedon has NOT been received by the whole Church--a whole section of it has not received it.  

Anything else is circular.  

The post above is puzzling to me.

The Council of Chalcedon was convened to deal with Christological heresy - that of Eutyches - and with the injustices perpetrated at the Latrocinium in Ephesus in 449.

A minority of baptized Christians - albeit a fairly large one -  rejected its findings.

The vast majority of baptized Christians, however, accepted the Council and its dogmatic statement.

The 3rd Council (Ephesus, 431) was rejected by a fairly sizeable minority of baptized Christians. Are we obligated to prove their spiritual descendants Christological heretics in order to validate that council?

The 1st Council (Nicea I, 325) was likewise rejected by a very sizeable minority of baptized Christians, perhaps, for a time, even by a majority (if one includes the Semi-Arians).

Now we are told by the spiritual descendants of those who rejected the Council of Chalcedon (and the subsequent councils) that we must prove they are Christological heretics or Chalcedon is not a valid ecumenical council.

Well, we could produce quotes from Non-Chalcedonian leaders affirming that our Lord has but one nature and one will (and we have produced them); but, we are told, they didn't really mean those things. (Funny thing, though: they keep saying them, over and over and over . . .)

We could even produce evidence that the 6th Council, which proclaimed the two wills of Christ, is as much or even more of a problem for Non-Chalcedonians than the 4th.

Further, we could produce the testimony of the Orthodox Fathers - like St. Maximus the Confessor, who, in his Letter 12, addressed the errors of Severus of Antioch - and of a number of scholars who have pointed out the not-so-subtle differences between Non-Chalcedonian and Orthodox Christology.

Then there are the attacks on the councils themselves.

Since Non-Chalcedonians claim they are Orthodox, and some of them even say they hold the same faith as the Eastern Orthodox, it is time for them to prove it.

How are they to do that?

Through Christological arguments and criticisms of the councils of the Church?

No; been there, done that.

Non-Chalcedonians can once-and-for-all prove their Orthodoxy by accepting the standards of Orthodoxy: ALL of the ecumenical councils of the Church, especially Chalcedon.

Until they do that, all their protests of Orthodoxy are empty.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 08:32:33 AM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #136 on: May 19, 2004, 12:54:45 PM »

Quote
The Council of Chalcedon was convened to deal with Christological heresy - that of Eutyches - and with the injustices perpetrated at the Latrocinium in Ephesus in 449.

A minority of baptized Christians - albeit a fairly large one -  rejected its findings.

The vast majority of baptized Christians, however, accepted the Council and its dogmatic statement.

Untrue.  The Council of Chalcedon introduced NEW Christological formulas that were contrary to what was expressed by the great teacher St. Cyril and his Church, the Alexandrian Church.  While this may have neen necessary in order to refute Eutychianism, it was done to the EXLCUSION of perfectly Orthodox Christological formulas. I have shown on this list before and can repost that St. Cyril himself continued to use the expression "one nature" AFTER the Formula of Reunion. Therefore, for the council to reject established teaching in favor of new formulas was of course to be rejected by a LARGE part of the Church.  If our Christological teaching is shown to be perfectly consistent with St. Cyril and you agree that St. Cyril is Orthodox then our teaching MUST be Orthodox. Your only argument is that after Chalcedon there is now only ONE school of Christological thought and based on this faulty logic, you must conclude that St. Cyril is outside this framework.

Quote
Well, we could produce quotes from Non-Chalcedonian leaders affirming that our Lord has but one nature and one will (and we have produced them); but, we are told, they didn't really mean those things. (Funny thing, though: they keep saying them, over and over and over . . .)

This is either ignorance or just silliness.  Noone is repudiating the language,  formulas, etc.. used to EXPRESS the Christological teachings of our Church, those teachings handed down by St. Cyril, but rather what we are saying is that these formulas require INTERPRETATION.  The INTERPRETATION of our formulas can be said to be the same as the INTERPRETATION of your formulas.

You see Linus, you cannot simply say that Christ is "in two natures" since Nestorius would agree with you. You have to go further and EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN by that expression.   Again, otherwise you have to conclude that St. Cyril is a heretic since he NEVER used the expression "IN TWO NATURES", not even in the Formula of Reunion.  But what did St. Cyril mean by his expressions? That is what matters and that is where your WHOLE argument fails, because you CANNOT and WILL NEVER be able to show that our teachings are in any way different from St Cyril who you call Orthodox.

Quote
We could even produce evidence that the 6th Council, which proclaimed the two wills of Christ, is as much or even more of a problem for Non-Chalcedonians than the 4th.

Again, the Monothelite controversy was YOUR controversy not ours. We didn't have to deal with. So the burden is on you to explain what exactly you mean when you say Christ is in TWO WILLS? Again, a Nestorian could have a field day with that expression if left on its own...it needs INTERPRETATION.  The same thing is said of an expression of ONE UNITED WILL.  What does it mean when we say that?  When you compare the two interpretations of the two different formulas you come to the same one truth.  Again, this to me is simple logic.

Linus, believe me, the for 1500 years the Copts probably didn't care at all for any reunion with the Byzantine Church. It's only in our current circumstances in the West where those of us who immigrated to places like the US have begun to see how much more of a witness Orthodoxy can be if we are united.  We are both minorities here and I myself have benefited greatly from reading books by EO and visiting EO monasteries etc... But the Copts are in no way in need of proving our Orthodoxy for any other reason.  We are, thanks to 1500 years of blessings from God, the one Church that has proabably given most to Christianity in terms of martyrs, monasticism, theology, etc...  We are, thanks to God, lacking nothing. Try visiting Egypt sometime and go to the ancient monasteries where you can see for yourself the blessings and grace of God at work - miracles, saints, weeping icons, clairvoyant elders, etc... are in abundance.  Please don't come accross as condescnding in your attitude towards us...we need nothing from you to complete our Orthodoxy.  It is love and forginess on our part that drives our quest for unity among Orthodox...please see it only in that light.

In Christ,
Raouf
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« Reply #137 on: May 19, 2004, 07:52:37 PM »

Peace,
Quote
St Cyril of Alexandria was a thug as was his uncle St Theophilus, who persecuted St John Chrysostom.  St Athanasius was deposed the first time for having the Melitian priest Isychos beat up. Your St Dioscorus persecuted our St Flavian.  The fact of the matter is, back in those days things were different.  We can't judge people based on their cultural context.  People were not as reserved as they are now.

anastasios

1- I find it troubling to undermine the Coptic Fathers they way you do. While disputed figures from your side like St.Dioscoros or St.Severes might be subjected to your criticism , I found it very distressing to label a great saint you don't (because you can't) dispute hisorthodoxy as "thug" . Linus once before accused St.Athansius with cutting deals with Arians. Why do you then venerate these "thugs" ?  

2- St.Theophilos's anathema against St.Chryssostom was a mistake we acknoweldge, and that is why St.John the Chryssostom is a saint in our church. The anathemas were reversed on the time of St.Cyril, who you call thug, as his uncle St.Theophilos (the other thug) rethought his decision . But I wonder , whether based on the false evidence presented by the clergy of Constantinople there could have been any other decision concerning St.John the Chryssostom from any other person......
I wish the Chalcedonians have the same fair attitude towards Pope Leo of Rome and reconsider his position. See the difference ?
 
3- Your accounts about St.Athanasius beating up any person to death are false. I hope you don't bring up the story of the amputation of glands of the same monk which the Arian council used against the greatest of all orthodox Fathers St.Athanasius. Again, just trying to tarnish the history our most blessed Fathers as long as they are Coptic.

4- Patriarch Flavian was a heretic who failed to confess the  Orthodox Faith in front of the Holy Synod in Ephesus II and as such deserved excommunication. Whether he was beaten to death or whatever happened to him afterwards is not the problem of the most blessed and honored St.Dioscoros, you have only your people to condemn. St.Dioscoros did not sentence him to death nor did he issue total anihilation and vicious persecution decress against the people of Constantinople as Pope Leo of Rome did against ALexandria after Chalcedon, a tradition the Vicars of Christ and the Patriarchs of Constantinople were very careful to follow.
It is interesting, however, that diposed Patriarch Flavian wrote letters after his alleged "murder". In addition, the only source we have on this is Leo Of Rome himself. He has interests which conflicted at many times with the truth, and as such is not a trusted source.

5- As for your excuse for the crimes of CHalcedonians, I don't see the logic behind it. The comparison with the notorious mass murderers I made before still holds. Do you excuse Sultan Muhamed El-Fatih for the masacres upon his conquer of Constantinople in 1453 a.d.? Do you think that Sultan Abd El-Hamid's crimes against the Armenians in 1916 are justified because he is just the product of his time ?

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2004, 07:53:00 PM »

Good post, Raouf.
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« Reply #139 on: May 19, 2004, 08:01:20 PM »

Raouf and Stavro,
Perhaps you OO's should get together with peterfarrington and get your stories straight.
Were the Ecumenical Patriarch not engaged in more pressing matters, I would fax him tomorrow morn and beg him to stop any dialogue with the Oriental communion. That certainly seems to be what you wish.
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« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2004, 07:57:19 AM »

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Raouf: Again, the Monothelite controversy was YOUR controversy not ours. We didn't have to deal with.

The Monothelite controversy arose as a result of an attempt by the Emperor Heraclius, acting through Patriarch Sergius of Constantinople, to appease the Monophysites.

It was not a controversy for Non-Chalcedonians precisely because Monothelitism is not controversial for them - it's what they believe already!

For the Orthodox, however, Monothelitism was the imposition of heresy by a heavy-handed emperor and his lackeys among the clergy.

Pope St. Martin I, St. Maximus the Confessor, St. Anastasius, and their brethren gave their lives defending the Orthodox doctrine of the two wills of Christ.

That doctrine was vindicated by the Holy Spirit at the Sixth Council, in Constantinople, in 680.

But you all don't accept that council either, do you?
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« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2004, 11:55:11 AM »

Raouf and Stavro,
Perhaps you OO's should get together with peterfarrington and get your stories straight.
Were the Ecumenical Patriarch not engaged in more pressing matters, I would fax him tomorrow morn and beg him to stop any dialogue with the Oriental communion. That certainly seems to be what you wish.
Demetri
Not at all, Demetri. It is not our wish to stop any dialogue, and frankly, we, "internet wise", have no influence in this process. We trust out hierarchs , who are led by the HOLY SPIRIT. We know that the way the EO confess their Christology is sound, regardless of the shift in theology between the 4th and 5th council.  

Whether a union or not, it will not affect our Church as the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of Christ.  The superior attitude from the Chalcedonian is totally unjustified, and it shows that the Chalcedonian did not get rid of the problems that caused the schism in the first place. One cannot ask from the OO more than they already gave and sacrificed for the sake of this union.

As for the problems facing H.H. (right title ??) The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, may the Lord help him out with them. Not doubt these are sad developments, and the way it affects the union dialogue is not certain.  

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2004, 12:08:42 PM »

Dear Demetri,

I find it amazing that this is the conclusion you reach!  I have posted many times on this forum and on this topic and supplied plenty of insight into where I stand.  

The fact is that the presupposition that we have to prove ourselves, or enter into your Church, or accept your councils, your saints, etc..all the while rejecting our own is simply ridiculous but this is precisely the attitude of most fundamentalist protestant converts into Orthodoxy...it shows a real insecurity.

This "subforum" called "Non-Chalcedonian Discussions" in my opinion is a failure since the only thing we ever discuss is a defense of our position on Chalcedon.  I am done here...God bless all of you and may the Lord remember us all in His Kingdom!

In Christ,
Raouf
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« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2004, 01:49:01 PM »

Not at all, Demetri. It is not our wish to stop any dialogue, and frankly, I have no influence in this process. We trust out hierarchs , who are led by the HOLY SPIRIT. We know that the way the EO confess their Christology is sound, regardless of the shift in theology between the 4th and 5th council.

Ah, it's good to see that my friend Stavro keeps a cooler head than his friend Raouf. I figured I would stir this up some and stop the useless polemics.
Quote
Whether a union or not, it will not affect our Church as the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of Christ.  The superior attitude from the Chalcedonian is totally unjustified, and it shows that the Chalcedonian did not get rid of the problems that caused the schism in the first place. One cannot ask from the OO more than they already gave and sacrificed for the sake of this union.

But of course that "our Church as the One Holy, etc..." is something to which my side would still have to say "We don't know", yet. Wink . And, I would like to know exactly what you have "sacrificed" for the re-union.

Quote
As for the problems facing H.H. (right title ??) The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, may the Lord help him out with them. Not doubt these are sad developments, and the way it affects the union dialogue is not certain.  

I would rather think that without His All-Holiness' support from the Church of Constantinople, the rest of the Greek Orthodox Churches (Jerusalem, Alexandria, Cyprus, Greece, maybe Antioch) would cease dialogue altogether. My read is that the non-Greek churches -Georgian, Slavic, and maybe Romanian already view this with suspicion or a jaundiced eye to say the least.

Demetri
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« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2004, 03:42:07 PM »

Peace,
Quote
Ah, it's good to see that my friend Stavro keeps a cooler head than his friend Raouf. I figured I would stir this up some and stop the useless polemics.
I think you misinterpreted Raouf's position and character. I know him from a different site, and he is resourceful in many areas of christianity. I think he just would not take abuse more than this by Linus and the others.
Quote
But of course that "our Church as the One Holy, etc..." is something to which my side would still have to say "We don't know", yet.
Which is irrelevant, I must say.......
Quote
And, I would like to know exactly what you have "sacrificed" for the re-union.
Simply and foremost,among other reasons, millions were martyred because of their Orthodoxy between 451-641 a.d.. Not even an apology was issued from your hierarchs condemning these persecution periods. Nothing, null. But we hear so many cries about a single person like Patriarch Falvian, a heretic, whose alleged murder we have nothing to do with.
Quote
My read is that the non-Greek churches -Georgian, Slavic, and maybe Romanian already view this with suspicion or a jaundiced eye to say the least.
How much weight do these churches exercise ? Also, didn't Constantinople split with the Greek ?

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2004, 08:09:51 PM »

Quote
Stavro: I think you misinterpreted Raouf's position and character. I know him from a different site, and he is resourceful in many areas of christianity. I think he just would not take abuse more than this by Linus and the others.

Face it: you folks do not like me (I think you hate me, actually) because I believe we really do not share the same faith.

Any objective observer who looks back on these posts, however, will see that I have abused no one.

I may have addressed the issues and the differences between us very bluntly - perhaps without enough tact - but I have not engaged in personal attacks. I restricted myself to doctrine and history.

On the other hand, I have been subjected to repeated personal attacks.

I have been told that I am "ignorant," "seem bitter," and am "resisting the Holy Spirit."

Very often the topic of this and other threads in this forum seems to be me and my shortcomings as a Christian and a human being.

What can I say?

I have many shortcomings!

 Grin
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« Reply #146 on: May 21, 2004, 12:15:26 PM »

Sorry, Stavro, the facts are as I presented them.  Many fathers on both sides would be considered thugs in our day.  The account of Athanasius's first deposition was a fact.  He was of course restored to his see and is an Orthodox saint that I highly regard, but we can't pretend that these things didn't happen. You seem to want to throw around every little accusation you can find against Eastern Orthodox saints but God forbid the Eastern Orthodox point out the way that your fathers likewise acted in a similiar way in this time frame and you get furious.

anastasios
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« Reply #147 on: May 21, 2004, 12:18:08 PM »

Stavro,

I also was not discussing massacres but was only referring to ecclesiastical strongarming when I said to judge according to the standards of our time.  Murder is always a sin.

anastasios
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« Reply #148 on: June 14, 2004, 01:15:33 PM »

Anastasios,
Quote
Anastasius:The account of Athanasius's first deposition was a fact.  He was of course restored to his see and is an Orthodox saint that I highly regard, but we can't pretend that these things didn't happen.
No they are not, and you might check your sources again. It never happened, and one cannot prove a negative as your honored person might know.
There is too much contradiction in your position regarding Orthodox saints. You maintain that they are saints, yet you believe them to be thugs. Note that before they are defenders of faith, they must be christians full of the Holy Spirit first. The fruits of the spirit cannot be killing, conspiracy and deceit.
I understand that the EO venerate Leo of Rome, Theodret and Justianian  Wink and other criminals and heretics and they don't care about the crimes they committed. Neither do I, but leave our OO saints out of this and don't try to justify the shameful acts of YOUR fathers by pretending that this is common in all churches. St.Athanasius, St.Cyril and the rest of the OO saints were NOT thugs.
Quote
Anastasius:You seem to want to throw around every little accusation you can find against Eastern Orthodox saints but God forbid the Eastern Orthodox point out the way that your fathers likewise acted in a similiar way in this time frame
WHat you relate about the OO saints such as St.Athanasius and St.Cyril is false. The standards are different. We don't venerate killers like you do. But at least you acknowledge the crimes of your Fathers, which is a step others can't take. I am also glad that you acknowledge that the EO cannot claim that St.Cyril and St.Athanasius belong to their tradition. They for sure are not Fathers of Leo of Rome and Nestorianism.  

There is too much contradiction in your tradition. Your confess the 4th and 5th synod to be holy, yet they contradict each other and the 5th council anathemizes the leaders of Chalcedon. You have saints, who are thugs. You believe in Rome's SUpremacy and its necessity, yet you don't follow Rome or believe them to be Orthodox for the last 1000 years.

This contradiction shows in the way you run the show. You have a respectful site with plenty of effort invested in it. One cannot deny that. Is it your intention to "market" Orthodoxy ? If so, how does the lies spread about the Orthodox saints like St.Athansius on this site, which you accused of crimes and  Linus accused of heresy work towards achieving this end ?

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #149 on: June 14, 2004, 01:57:53 PM »

Stavro,

So who did order the beating-up of Isychos the Meletian then?

anastasios
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« Reply #150 on: June 14, 2004, 04:30:15 PM »

Anastasios,
is this the best you can do ? "Who ordered the beating then"? Maybe we use different approach to matters when it comes to research.
May the Lord bless your soul.
Stavro
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« Reply #151 on: June 14, 2004, 04:30:52 PM »

Maybe you can answer the question?  I know I'd like to know.
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« Reply #152 on: June 14, 2004, 05:12:17 PM »

Hey Stavro....

A while back in this thread you stated that Flavian was a Heretic and refused to profess Orthodoxy.

Please let me know why he was a heretic. What was his heresy? In what way did he refuse to profess Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #153 on: June 14, 2004, 05:25:38 PM »

Stavro,

I am not going to argue with you.  The case of Isychos the priest is well documented and that's all I am going to say about it.  You call our saints killers and that is purely offensive to me.  You call our site a failure but that's ok, we are not judged by your standards.

anastasios
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« Reply #154 on: June 14, 2004, 05:34:59 PM »

Maybe you can answer the question?  I know I'd like to know.
Gladly, Schulz. The answer is simply:"It did not happen". One cannot prove a negative, the burden is on the one who makes the claim to prove his claims. St.Athanasius was falsely accused of sorcery as well. Should we spend time searching whether such accusation is true or not, if there is no documents or teachings by the Contra Mundum expressing such things ?

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #155 on: June 14, 2004, 05:41:39 PM »

Hey Starvo....

A while back in this thread you stated that Flavian was a Heretic and refused to profess Orthodoxy.

Please let me know why he was a heretic. What was his heresy? In what way did he refuse to profess Orthodoxy?
He refused to confess Orthodoxy in front of Ephesus II, refusing to accept the Cyrillian language of Ephesus I and favoring a Nestorian one for the two natures.
Consult "Chalcedon Re-examined" for the references.


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« Reply #156 on: June 14, 2004, 05:44:53 PM »

But Stavro, I don't understand.

You can't accept the NCs and their saints being called heretics for refusing to accept Chalcedonian terminology, yet Flavian was a heretic for not accepting NC terminology! It seems that you have a double standard. Your saints are surely not heretics just because they don't accept our terminology, but our saints are because they didn't accept your questionable terminology?! That is absurd!
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« Reply #157 on: June 14, 2004, 05:57:57 PM »

Stavro,

I am not going to argue with you.  The case of Isychos the priest is well documented and that's all I am going to say about it.  You call our saints killers and that is purely offensive to me.  You call our site a failure but that's ok, we are not judged by your standards.

anastasios
1- Nor am I going to argue with you. I made my point and I believe it came across.

2- You find it offensive that your saints are called killers. What about your claims that my saints are killers ? You might say instead: " He ordered him killed", or any fancy language. I use the words bluntly.
And, sure, the insults and lies spread by a distinguished Chalcedonian on this forum does not catch your attention.

3- I didn't say that the whole site is a failure. One has to admit, and with joy, that there is a great effort done to make it a resourceful site for those who seek Orthodoxy.
I said that the forum, meaning the Non-Chalcedonian one, is a failure, and I totally adhere to my opinion. This conclusion is shared by many who left the forum for being abused by the same distinguished Chalcedonian and misrepresented in front of any truth seeker by hate sites, with the full back-up by the site administrators. What conclusion should one draw from this situation ? Being repeatedly put on the defensive draws our energies in what could have been a rather more joyful experience. This was not done in controversial topics only,  but even in simple inquiries about the OO churches. Any member who asks about the Coptic Church has to be confronted with a load of garbage and lies by the distiniguished Chalcedonian to scare him away.
I did not see any actions taken against him to stop him from this attitude, which is disappointing.

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #158 on: June 14, 2004, 05:59:55 PM »

He could have adhered to any other terminology as long as it was Orthodox. He choose to follow Nestorius and refused to confess Orthodoxy.

But Stavro, I don't understand.

You can't accept the NCs and their saints being called heretics for refusing to accept Chalcedonian terminology, yet Flavian was a heretic for not accepting NC terminology! It seems that you have a double standard. Your saints are surely not heretics just because they don't accept our terminology, but our saints are because they didn't accept your questionable terminology?! That is absurd!
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« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2004, 06:05:39 PM »

Stavro,

We have chided the "prominent Chalcedonian" you refer to many times, both publicly and privately.  If you read his posts, he has oftentimes said we are unfair to him and threatened to quit, so I don't believe your accuastion holds water.  We try to keep the peace but we have to balance people's freedom to post on a forum such as this that is unofficial with the need for objectivity and truth, and ultimately a search for what is right.

Sometimes posters go over the edge but that can't be helped.  Every time there has been an argument I have always stuck up for my conviction that Non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox, and have drawn fire from my fellow Chalcedonians for it. But I don't care, it's the truth as far as I am concerned.

You are the only Non-Chalcedonian I have ever seen on this forum get so riled up.  I am sure you feel angry when people post against your Church but you fight fire by fire. I have much more appreciation for Raouf who suffered quietly and peacefully left.  That being said, it greives me when people do leave because we have always tried to manage the forum.

When Peter and Linus are not busy fighting each other, usually the discussions are profitable and that's why we keep the Non-Chalcedonian folder open. Perhaps you are right it has been a failure though and just proves the two sides will never be united. I certainly hope that is not the case. Sad  What I do know is that Phil, Bobby, David, Peter, John, Nektarios, and I may just have to come up with a different way of running the folder.

anastasios
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« Reply #160 on: June 14, 2004, 06:11:25 PM »

He could have adhered to any other terminology as long as it was Orthodox. He choose to follow Nestorius and refused to confess Orthodoxy.

What other terminology could he have used? You seem to think he was a heretic just becuase he said Christ was one person in two natures, which is totally orthodox! Christ is fully human and fully God, and his two natures though united into one person, for certainly we do not have two Christs, are not mixed or somehow absorbed by each other. So what is wrong with speaking of two natures? What is heretical about such terminology?!
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« Reply #161 on: June 14, 2004, 06:22:25 PM »

Ben,
but this is not how he confessed the faith. A terminology is orthodox as long as you maintain the unity betwen both natures, and you don't adopt a Nestorian or at a later time a Leonist interpretation, which separates both natures completely. St.Cyril taught us not to talk about the two natures after the incarnation.
This is not double standard. I do not follow the new trend of aquitting heretics of their heresies. He was in front of very able bishops who judged him for what he confessed. He might have been a very good man though, yet he believed in a heretical view of the natures of Christ.
Now, how is that different than the case with St.Dioscoros ? Chalcedon did not accuse St.Dioscoros of any heresy, it was a demotion or whatever it is called from the accusations against him from Theodret and others.

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« Reply #162 on: June 14, 2004, 06:36:18 PM »

Anastasios,
I have my shortcomings, and I do not claim to be right all the time and I might indeed have made mistakes in the choice of language which came across as harsh. I am different than Raouf (using the same example you used), and I acknowledge his more peaceful attitude. For that I ask forgiveness.
In the same time, I hope you really review your policy concerning this forum. Raouf and many other could have really added a lot to all forums.
It was a joy to find a site that advocates Orthodoxy, but there is no need to attack OO. It will not help your cause.
As for unity, nobody knows what will happen. It seems there are positive steps made, but the same old problems will remain a challenge.

Peace,
Stavro
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« Reply #163 on: June 14, 2004, 08:29:51 PM »


What I do know is that Phil, Bobby, David, Peter, John, Nektarios, and I may just have to come up with a different way of running the folder.

anastasios

Amen!  Maybe you should try having a "debate" section separate from the main body of the Non-Chalcedonian forum itself.  But then again, this might not be helpful, because it seems to me that some folks ask questions that they know will be provocative.  They know that some people will jump in and say "This is not orthodox!" and that others will jump in and say "Yes it is!", and then they just get to sit back and watch the fireworks while we tear each other apart like pit bulls.  I guess its easier than actually doing the research for yourself though. Maybe questions like that should be coralled in a debate folder as well, because we all know what the outcome will be.

Also, Anastasios, if you truly do believe that we are Orthodox, why not call this the Oriental Orthodox forum instead of the "Non-Chalcedonian" forum?  Our Churches don't define themselves exclusively by their rejection of that synod.  Our beginnings date to the first century, not the fifth.

And I have to agree with Stavro that a stricter standard seems to be applied to the Oriental Orthodox.  We have to sit and listen to terms like "Latriconium" and allegations that our saints are thugs, etc., and if we respond in kind we get a stern red lettered warning right away.  I used to enjoy coming here, but not any more.  I try my best to stay out of the debates, but it seems that there is nothing else here.  Even Rustaveli's inquiry about the Coptic Church got derailed.


Stavro said: "I said that the forum, meaning the Non-Chalcedonian one, is a failure, and I totally adhere to my opinion. This conclusion is shared by many who left the forum for being abused by the same distinguished Chalcedonian and misrepresented in front of any truth seeker by hate sites, with the full back-up by the site administrators. What conclusion should one draw from this situation ? Being repeatedly put on the defensive draws our energies in what could have been a rather more joyful experience. This was not done in controversial topics only,  but even in simple inquiries about the OO churches. Any member who asks about the Coptic Church has to be confronted with a load of garbage and lies by the distiniguished Chalcedonian to scare him away.
I did not see any actions taken against him to stop him from this attitude, which is disappointing."

This is dead on.  

Hopefully, things can improve in the future.

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« Reply #164 on: June 15, 2004, 01:26:16 PM »

Peace,
Quote
Linus:Your sole support for these claims seems to be a book written (correct me if I am wrong) by a man from the Caribbean who became an Ethiopian priest.
This is the kind of insults Linus has been repeatedly and consistently directing to the OO.
Anastasios,
when I talk about bias, I know what I am talking about. The above racist comment by Linus does not draw your attention. It is freedom of posting, but God forbid anything should be said in a scholastic manner about church history that may dismay you, even if it supported by facts.
Ben,
I don't see you get upset here. You gave yourself the freedom to insult me for what you falsely perceive as a wrong opinion on my behalf, but you pass on racist comments. Talk about double standard !!  
 
Peace,
Stavro

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« Reply #165 on: June 15, 2004, 02:32:32 PM »

Stavro I don't think Linus's statement was racist, and I know he certainly didn't mean it to be taken that way!

I think everyone is just too sensitive right now, esp you Stavro and also Peter, that such comments as made by Linus are turned into something they are not.
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« Reply #166 on: June 15, 2004, 04:14:59 PM »

I'm not going to say that the comment was racist per se (although it had overtones which could be construed that way), but why is it important to mention that Fr. Selassie is from the Caribbean?  Why not just say "Your source is not impartial because it was written by an Non-Chalcedonian priest"?  I could see the same person who made this quote getting offended if someone dismissed a quote by Fr. Gilquist by saying "Your sole source is some book written by an ex-Evangelical born right here in the USA".  Why is the fact that Fr. Selassie is a West Indian "convert" and not an Oriental Orthodox "cradle" important in this context?
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« Reply #167 on: June 15, 2004, 04:53:02 PM »

Dear Anastasios,


the matter of Isychos the priest is indeed very well documented. May i humbly ask if you ever checked out other experts' opinion on the matter? Such as the fact that the reports written for the incident were done by imperial guards(police)? People who sought nothing but brining down Papa Athanasius? Does this not give the situation enough room to doubt that the incident evey happened?

Refer me to better arguments if possible, please.
Love,
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« Reply #168 on: June 15, 2004, 05:24:32 PM »

Anastasios,
when I talk about bias, I know what I am talking about. The above racist comment by Linus does not draw your attention. It is freedom of posting, but God forbid anything should be said in a scholastic manner about church history that may dismay you, even if it supported by facts.

Stavro,

It didn't draw my attention BECAUSE I AM OUT OF TOWN AND JUST SIGNED ON TO THE FORUM AFTER 24 HOURS AWAY. I do not spend twenty four hours a day online. Please stop engaging me personally.

Linus, why does it matter if the man is from the Carribbean? Would you like to clarify yourself because it sounded racist to me as well.

anastasios
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« Reply #169 on: June 15, 2004, 05:25:23 PM »

Mourad,

I'll tell you what: when I get back to my home I will speak with my professor and ask him to discuss the sources we used in class for the case of Isychos and then start a new thread.

anastasios
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« Reply #170 on: June 15, 2004, 05:49:40 PM »

Anastasios,
thanks for taking necessary actions to stop the unnecessary comments by Linus.
Stavro
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« Reply #171 on: June 15, 2004, 06:02:33 PM »

Stavro,

What actions did Anastasios take?

All he did was ask Linus for a clarification, something you should have done before jumping to conclusions and assuming Linus meant it in a racist context.
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« Reply #172 on: June 15, 2004, 06:41:47 PM »

Wow guys, is it me or is this all really getting out of hand? I mean, to the point where it seems some of us are losing our peace over this? I think some consideration is necessary before passions start working harder than they already are (scary thing, really).

Pray for me,
mourad
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« Reply #173 on: June 15, 2004, 07:27:03 PM »

Stavro,

...jumping to conclusions and assuming Linus meant it in a racist context.

It did sound dismissive of the man simply because he is from the Caribbean.
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« Reply #174 on: June 15, 2004, 07:33:58 PM »

Stavro,

What actions did Anastasios take?

All he did was ask Linus for a clarification, something you should have done before jumping to conclusions and assuming Linus meant it in a racist context.
Honored and Respected Member of this forum, Ben,
Whatever conclusions you draw,together with your advice, keep it for yourself.
Dismissing one's opinion because of his ethnicity is racism. I don't ask Linus for clarifications, he made his intentions and racist inclinations clear over and over again.

Stavro
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« Reply #175 on: June 15, 2004, 07:34:14 PM »

Quote
It did sound dismissive of the man simply because he is from the Caribbean.


I understand, but the proper thing to do, as Anastasios did, is to ask for a clarification before jumping to such conclusions.
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« Reply #176 on: June 15, 2004, 07:36:28 PM »

Honored and Respected Member of this forum, Ben,
Whatever conclusions you draw,together with your advice, keep it for yourself.
Dismissing one's opinion because of his ethnicity is racism. I don't ask Linus for clarifications, he made his intentions and racist inclinations clear over and over again.

Stavro

I personally think it wise to ask for a clarification first, as Anastasios did. That it my opinion and unless told to by a Admin or a Mod, I will not keep it to myself.

My question still stands, what actions did Anastasios take against Linus? Did he not just ask for a clarification?

And may I ask how Linus has made his racist inclinations clear over and over again? Isn't think all about one comment in one of his posts? I was unaware that he has made statements like that before, could you please direct me to them?
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« Reply #177 on: June 15, 2004, 07:44:47 PM »

I understand, but the proper thing to do, as Anastasios did, is to ask for a clarification before jumping to such conclusions.

I didn't jump to any conclusions.  I just said I see how it could be construed as racism, or at least being dismissive of the man because of his national origin.  It is also ironic coming from a person who doesn't like to hear "cradle" Orthodox make remarks about ex-Protestant converts.  Just my opinion though.  And like you, I have no problem in stating it unless admonished by one of our monitors.
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« Reply #178 on: June 15, 2004, 07:46:43 PM »

Quote
I personally think it wise to ask for a clarification first, as Anastasios did. That it my opinion and unless told to by a Admin or a Mod, I will not keep it to myself.
Don't direct your advice to me. I don't need your attitude. And your double standard , better called hypocrisy, stinks.
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« Reply #179 on: June 15, 2004, 07:46:58 PM »

Antonious I know you didn't jump to any conclustions, but Stavro did. And my post that you quoted was addressed to Stavro.
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