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Author Topic: A VERY Ecumenical Patriarch  (Read 13059 times) Average Rating: 0
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ambrosemzv
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« on: April 18, 2004, 09:47:01 PM »

I translated the material below from the French Orthodox forum, Orthodoxie.  I find myself perplexed by His Holiness's enthusiasm for dialogue leading toward eventual unity with the Roman Catholic Church, given the state of the latter in the post-Vatican II environment.

I am also somewhat confused and troubled by His Holiness's endorsement of the terms, "two lungs of the Church" and "sister Churches," and his statements concerning the "tearing apart" of "the Body of Christ."  I was catechized that the Church has consistently held that the body of Christ is One, and always will be One, whether the Roman patriarch is in communion with that Body, or not.

You can find the original posting, in French, at http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/orthodoxie/message/849.
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ambrosemzv
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2004, 09:50:31 PM »

From the site maintained by the Conference of Bishops of France (www.cef.fr ):

 1204 - 2004 : 800 years later

On the occasion of the tragic anniversary of the sack of Constantinople, April 13, 1204, Cardinal Philippe Barbarin, Archbishop of Lyon, and Mgr. Gerard Daucourt, Bishop of Nanterre and member of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the Unity of Christians, met on Tuesday, April 13, with Patriarch Bartholomew I.
 
"Noting the approach of the sad anniversary of the Sack of Constantinople, which took place on the Holy Day of Easter/Pascha, April 13, 1204, I wished to spend this day in the company of Patriarch Bartholomew I.  He courteously welcomed this wish, and invited me, along with Monsignor Gerard Daucourt, Bishop of Nanterre and member of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of the Unity of Christians.

"Eight centuries after the tragic events that profoundly wounded relations between Christians of the East and West, we were able, by the mercy and pardoning grace of the Lord, acting in the Church, to live this day in brotherly love.

"This morning, we attended the Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Ecumenical Patriarch, and afterwards, we entered into conversation.  The sense of common membership in God’s family, and of our brotherhood in Christ, which confers “a single spirit,” allows us today, in spite of such grave offenses, to regard and love each other as brothers.

"This afternoon, we went to pray at the tombs of the Ecumenical Patriarchs, in particular, that of Patriarch Athenagoras I, who, with Pope Paul VI, opened with ferver this road of reconciliation at the time of the Second Vatican Council.

"We express our great gratitude to Patriarch Bartholomew I and to his close collaborators in the Church of Constantinople for this day, lived in interior silence and in affectionate and fraternal proximity to each other.  With them, we offer thanks to God, and we proclaim the Risen Christ.

"Alleluia!"

Philippe, Cardinal Barbarin
Archbishop of Lyon
Istanbul, April 13, 2004

 
ADDRESS BY HIS HOLINESS
ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW
ON THE OCCASION OF THE VISIT BY
HIS EMINENCE CARDINAL PHILIPPE BARBARIN
ARCHBISHOP OF LYON AND PRIMATE OF GAULE


Phanar, April13, 2004
 
Your Eminence, Your Excellency:
 
The grace of God has brought us together today in the Great Church of Christ to exchange, as tradition would have it, the paschal kiss, and to testify, once again, our common faith in the Resurrection of Christ.  Celebrating the foundation of our faith (I Cor. 15: 17) in this period of festivity and joy, our Church sings, in effect, “This is the day of Resurrection: Let us be illumined by the Feast.  Let us embrace one another.  Let us call brothers even those who hate us.  Let us forgive all, because of the Resurrection, and let us sing:  Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.”

The spirit of reconciliation in the Resurrected One, which emanates from the Paschalia, thus incites us to labor with urgency for the reconciliation of our Churches, which bear the marks of the complicated history of a long and painful tearing apart.  He inspires us to deploy all our efforts to repair the torn mantle of the Body of Christ and, thus, to be obedient to the priestly prayer of our Lord and Savior:  “That they may be one, as we are one” (Jn. 17: 11).

Now, the unity of our Churches manifested itself in the past by fraternal ties woven from the first centuries of Christianity.  We may take the example of Saint Irenaeus, the disciple of Saint Polycarp of Smyrna, Irenaeus who came from Asia Minor to establish himself in Gaul to tend the Church in Lyon.  This historical fact encourages us to renew these ties, and we see in your arrival a sincere will to bring them to fruition.  It is for us a great joy to receive you, your Eminence, as Primate of the Gauls and successor to Saint Irenaeus of Lyon.  You are accompanied today by Mgr. Gerard Daucourt, Bishop of Nanterre, long a friend of our Patriarchate, who has long worked in Rome in the Pontifical Council for the Unity of Christians, of which he is still a collaborator, and who is president of the Council for Cultural Collaboration.  

Welcoming you in the Great Church of Christ on this Tuesday of Bright Week, we feel it important to emphasize your cordial gesture, which is marked by the spirit of reconciliation.  For, though illumined today by the feast of Resurrection, you wished to share with us the pain and sufferings of the eight-hundredth anniversary of the tragic taking of Constantinople by the Crusaders, on April 13th, 1204.  This event, which willl remain forever etched into the memory of the Byzantine people, aggravated the splitting of the mantle of the Body of Christ, which we are now attempting, with much effort, to sew back together, and inaugurated among the Orthodox a climate of distrust and suspicion toward the Catholic Church.

To be sure, we must admit that the 4th Crusade was an historical phenomenon of great complexity, upon which converge interests and concerns simultaneously religious, political and commercial.  To such noble sentiments as the hope of liberating Christian lands occupied by the “Infidels” was added a tragical event of the history of Christianity which would for centuries oppose the East and West:  the taking of Constantinople by the Crusaders and the founding of the Latin Empire.

Over the course of the following centuries, the Orthodox Churches held themselves for the most part on the defensive, whereas the Catholic Church deployed much effort to bring the “schismatic easterners” into union with Rome.  One of the principle forms this effort took was uniatism, which has always been severely judged by the Orthodox.

But, the spirit of reconciliation is stronger than hate.  Since the Vatican II Council, the Church of Rome recognizes that the path of union does not pass by way of uniatism, and seeks to recognize in the Orthodox Church a “Sister Church.”  Illumined by the Resurrection, Patriarch Athenagoras of blessed memory, our predecessor on the ecumenical throne, was eager to recognize in Pope Paul VI his brother, and to exchange with him, in 1964, the kiss of peace.  This cordial gesture, which remains today a memorable event, not only lifted the anathemas formerly promulgated between our Churches in 1054, but also re-sealed our two Churches, separated since the tragical event of 1204, in the spirit of reconciliation.  To this gesture, we may now add yours, which is marked by the same spirit.

Beloved brothers in Christ!  Illumined by the feast of Pascha, and filled with the spirit of reconciliation, we must all the same learn a lesson from history.  The eight-hundredth anniversary of the taking of Constantinople by the Crusaders must lead us carefully to measure each action we undertake today.

Asking you to labor and offer witness within your own Church, we welcome with gratitude and respect your cordial gesture so that the tragic events of the 4th Crusade need no longer be a stumbling block between our Churches, and not serve as a model for other, even more perilous actions.  France has always been a pioneer in collaborating and forging relationships between  our two sister Churches, and the presence of our Church, which labors by means of the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops as well as the Saint Sergius Institute, owes much to the support and fraternal welcome of the local Catholic Church.  We hope that this same climate may continue to illumine the Christians of your country in this common march toward unity.

Illumined by the Resurrection of Christ, let us as brothers labor together for reconciliation.  In this sense, we pray to the Resurrected Lord to heal the wounds of the Church, which is His Body.  As for us, let us embrace each other in the joy of the Resurrection.  Western Europe and Eastern Europe—the two lungs of Christianity, to take up the expression of Pope John Paul II—must stop looking upon each other as strangers.  The Europe of tomorrow must find inspiration in the Christian empire of the first centuries, and St. Irenaeus of Lyon gives us a good example of this.  Let us attempt to bear a common witness of Christianity in this Europe which is constructing itself, and which is preparing to welcome new members with a view to supporting our country, Turkey.

Let us forgive all because of the Resurrection, and let us sing the Resurrected Lord, for the unity of our Churches must not occur with haste, but by means of reinvigorating the work of theological dialogue, and by means of circumstances which Divine Providence will reveal to us.

Your Eminence, your Excellency:  Welcome to the center of the Great Church of Christ; on this historical date, marked by your cordial iniative, we assure you of our confidence in, and of our prayers for, the fruitful evolution of the dialogue between our Churches in quest of unity.  

« Last Edit: April 18, 2004, 10:19:24 PM by ambrosemzv » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2004, 10:03:59 AM »

Thanks for the work of translation, ambrose.

And you're right.

If that was not an endorsement of the "two lungs" theory, I don't know what is.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2004, 10:27:17 AM »

Ugh!
There he goes again...
I guess I will have to again explain to Mrs. Aristokles about the coming $8-10 fax charge to the Phanar.  Is he so naive to think we laity will accept this---even we "Greeks" ?
Demetri
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2004, 01:42:59 PM »

From the site maintained by the Conference of Bishops of France (www.cef.fr ):

 
Quote
Let us forgive all because of the Resurrection, and let us sing the Resurrected Lord, for the unity of our Churches must not occur with haste, but by means of reinvigorating the work of theological dialogue, and by means of circumstances which Divine Providence will reveal to us.
Your Eminence, your Excellency:  Welcome to the center of the Great Church of Christ; on this historical date, marked by your cordial iniative, we assure you of our confidence in, and of our prayers for, the fruitful evolution of the dialogue between our Churches in quest of unity.  



IMO this is the key, I also find no problem with the statements.

I betcha I messed this quote thing up, I'm pc illiterate  Tongue.

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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2004, 08:04:32 PM »

Ugh!
There he goes again...
I guess I will have to again explain to Mrs. Aristokles about the coming $8-10 fax charge to the Phanar.  Is he so naive to think we laity will accept this---even we "Greeks" ?
Demetri

are you the authority in your church? I thought that it was the bishops?

You and the greeks, the romans, the coptics, etc  are not above Christ. You will do as he commands. If that is where he leads the church... then so be it.

and you and those that oppose it.......................will have to deal with it or join the protestants.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 08:14:46 PM »

Fortunately, "romanbyzantium", YOUR opinion or authority means nothing to me.

Demetri
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2004, 08:28:55 PM »

Fortunately, "romanbyzantium", YOUR opinion or authority means nothing to me.

Demetri

never said that it did. Demetri, you are a very angry person!!! pray about it.

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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2004, 08:49:01 PM »

are you the authority in your church? I thought that it was the bishops?

You and the greeks, the romans, the coptics, etc  are not above Christ. You will do as he commands. If that is where he leads the church... then so be it.

and you and those that oppose it.......................will have to deal with it or join the protestants.

You don't understand how the Orthodox Church works. The Orthodox Church is infallible. It is made up of clergy and laity which work together.

anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2004, 08:55:30 PM »

You don't understand how the Orthodox Church works. The Orthodox Church is infallible. It is made up of clergy and laity which work together.

anastasios

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a pan-orthodox couonicl but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2004, 09:26:48 PM »

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a pan-orthodox couonicl but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?



If it is the will of the Holy Spirit, then that lone Bishop (and his flock that still follows) is in schism.  If it is not, then that lone Bishop's flock is the Orthodox Church and everyone else are heterodox.  Pretty simple.

Again, you seem to approach this unity as a simple misunderstanding when it isn't.  All we Orthodox are saying is that we need to approach this with great caution and move slowly.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2004, 09:41:13 PM »

If it is the will of the Holy Spirit, then that lone Bishop (and his flock that still follows) is in schism.  If it is not, then that lone Bishop's flock is the Orthodox Church and everyone else are heterodox.  Pretty simple.

Again, you seem to approach this unity as a simple misunderstanding when it isn't.  All we Orthodox are saying is that we need to approach this with great caution and move slowly.


1. How do you determine where the Holy spirit is? is it within the lone bishop of the bishops that voted to reunite?

2. I never said that it was a little misunderstanding. If unity happens, great. If unity does not happen, great, but not the prefer situation as commanded by christ.  Neverthless, my eyes are set on christ.

3. Don't take anything that I am saying or asking personally. It is not meant to be taken as such. All I am doing in asking and inquiring orthodoxy.
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2004, 09:48:02 PM »

I have always wondered about this.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church? I mean where does His authority rest? Or I should say where is the infallible authority of the Orthodox Church resting? In Catholcism it is the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council with a Pope's approval. But where in Orthodoxy? Can Orthodoxy call an ecumenical council without a Pope or an Emperor? Perhaps you all may want to answer these questions in the thread I started in the Faith section yesterday on an Ecumenical council, which no one has responded to as of now...... Sad
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2004, 02:58:36 AM »

Christos Anesti!  Christ is Risen!

so lets say that almost all orthodox bishops want to reunite with the west as voted in a pan-orthodox council but there is a lone bishop that refuses, what happens next?

Been there, done that Smiley. Ask Saint Mark of Ephesus.

John.
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2004, 03:22:41 AM »

3. Don't take anything that I am saying or asking personally. It is not meant to be taken as such. All I am doing in asking and inquiring orthodoxy.

It may just be the language barrier, but you usually come off otherwise.  Try to always be careful and reread what you wrote before you click on submit.
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2004, 06:51:22 AM »

It may just be the language barrier, but you usually come off otherwise.  Try to always be careful and reread what you wrote before you click on submit.  

I thought about that very seriously. I have asked another catholic friend of mine and I asked him to read and give me his reaction to a couple of things that I have written, he saw nothing arrogant nor aggrassive in my questions.

He did say that in forums like this one and many others there is a tendecy to read everything from the perspective of " your side against my side" and everyone goes into a defensive mode. I believe that this is the problem.  You guys seee me as that Latin coming here and questioning us. and it doesn't help the situation when you guys are suspicious of us.

I have said it many times... I am not looking for converts nor to be converted. Don't take anything that I say seriously or as a threat to your faith cause it is not meant to be taken that way. All I am doing is learning about your faith.

So....................

Stand down from red alert
Lower shields
power down your phasers
power done photon torpedos

and turn activitate your

Universal translator
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2004, 10:17:36 AM »

I have always wondered about this.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church? I mean where does His authority rest? Or I should say where is the infallible authority of the Orthodox Church resting? In Catholcism it is the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council with a Pope's approval. But where in Orthodoxy? Can Orthodoxy call an ecumenical council without a Pope or an Emperor? Perhaps you all may want to answer these questions in the thread I started in the Faith section yesterday on an Ecumenical council, which no one has responded to as of now...... Sad

This is the quintessentially Catholic question because it reflects the typically Catholic keen interest in understanding where, precisely, the buck stops.

Orthodoxy is simply different in this respect.  The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church.  We expect that He normally does so through the established hierarchy of the Church, under most circumstances, but we know that there are times when this has not been the case.  Councils have erred, even though they considered themselves to be ecumenical (e.g., the Robber Council of Ephesus), hierarchs have drifted into heresy and, as at Florence-Ferrara, even large swaths of the hierarchy can effectively separate themselves from the Church and the Holy Spirit despite the vestments that they wear and the orders to which they are ordained.  The simple answer is that we do not know of *any* external criterion by which to judge where the Holy Spirit definitively speaks ... while the hierarchical order is the normal course of things, our own history teaches us that sometimes the Holy Spirit, due to the failings of the human beings who are in the hierarchy, must preserve the infallibility of the Church through other means within the Church, and so we see the Holy Spirit's gift as being to the entire church, and we really don't know of any a priori, external, "litmus test" type approach that gurantees that whatever such and such body, council or hierarch says must needs be true, definitive and infallible.  We know of no such thing.

Brendan
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2004, 10:20:32 AM »

'1. How do you determine where the Holy spirit is? is it within the lone bishop of the bishops that voted to reunite?"

Based on external factors, you can't.  The Church knows where the Holy Spirit is by discerning, over time, which is in true accord with the Holy Tradition of the Church.  The result is that in the interim you may have schism (ie, a break in communion) or dissention within the Church while the discernment is taking place.

In the case of Florence, any dissention or split was short-lived, because even though St. Mark of Ephesos was the only Orthodox hierarch courageous enough to defy both the Pope and the Emperor in defense of the purity of the Orthodox faith, once the hierarchs returned to the East, one by one they began to rescind and recant their adherence to Florence, and even the Emperor himself could not publicly enforce the Florentine Union, being as it was a heretical abomination in the eyes of the Church.  The hierarchs acted improperly at Florence, and virtually *everyone* in the Orthodox Church knew it, and so what they did was ignored, repupdiated and rejected, and everyone believed (and still believes to this day) that while this rejection of the hierarchs' actions was exceptional, nevertheless it was clearly the will of the Holy Spirit.



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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2004, 10:28:31 AM »

I have always wondered about this.

Where is the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church? I mean where does His authority rest? Or I should say where is the infallible authority of the Orthodox Church resting? In Catholcism it is the Pope, or an Ecumenical Council with a Pope's approval.

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2004, 12:44:12 PM »

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.


We Catholics don't think the Pope is always right in everything he does.  There is no doctrine that speaks to the infallibility of Papal action.  The Pope is infallible in defining faith and morals in limited circumstances.

There is a response to your statements regarding Catholic history, but I will refrain because I feel I am a guest here.  I will only say that mutual respect is a better method of dialogue than imputing collective guilt for things that nearly everyone living on earth now finds to be deplorable.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2004, 04:57:17 PM »

are you the authority in your church? I thought that it was the bishops?

You and the greeks, the romans, the coptics, etc  are not above Christ. You will do as he commands. If that is where he leads the church... then so be it.

and you and those that oppose it.......................will have to deal with it or join the protestants.

Am I the only one getting tired of all the trolling coming out of Europe these days?  I think we've seen enough to know that this is not a case of authentic inquiry into Orthodoxy.  Personally, I intend henceforth completely to ignore these postings/come-ons.
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2004, 06:41:06 PM »

AMEN!
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2004, 07:35:54 PM »

Am I the only one getting tired of all the trolling coming out of Europe these days?  I think we've seen enough to know that this is not a case of authentic inquiry into Orthodoxy.  Personally, I intend henceforth completely to ignore these postings/come-ons.

ambrosemzv,

You are not alone.

Demetri
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2004, 08:07:09 PM »

ambrosemzv,

You are not alone.

Demetri

If you can't answer my questions nor care to answer then say so. Don't resort to childish name calling.  But you are doing a dis-service to your faith by not being available in explaining your faith to those that are asking questions. Frankly, it is not a good way to evangelize people.

If anyone asked me about catholcism, I would be there to answer any questions that they might have. Clear any misconceptions that they might have, etc. I don't lie around contributing to the problem by not taking the time to correct those that might have misconception about my faith.

I really don't know what to say anymore. I have said many times that I am not here to convert anyone but, only to learn about your faith and to answer a few questions that I have. and to clear-up any misconceptions that I might have about orthodoxy. But this has not happened, except the mods which have help me with some books suggestions and actual explanations.

The rest of those that have bothered to reply to my posts have responded in a most uncharitable manner my calling me names. This is most unfortunate.  This reminds me of my expereince with the jews. don't ever question a jew cause you will be branded an antisemite. Don't ever question the jewish faith, cause you will be branded an antisemite jew hater, etc....

If anyone walks away with a bad impression of orthodoxy that is the fault of those that refuse to defend it and explain it.
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2004, 08:08:13 PM »

Am I the only one getting tired of all the trolling coming out of Europe these days?  I think we've seen enough to know that this is not a case of authentic inquiry into Orthodoxy.  Personally, I intend henceforth completely to ignore these postings/come-ons.

If you can't answer my questions then say so. Recommend a book that I could read. But stop the name calling. It is very infantil.

Show the charity that our hosts have shown. They have answer my questions very nicely. They haven't resorted to name calling.
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2004, 11:07:58 PM »

:Stand down from red alert
Lower shields
power down your phasers
power done photon torpedos:

So you think you can take us in with that old Romulan trick? We know you will never rest until you have subjugated the entire galaxy to your evil Star Empire. We remember that time you wanted to negotiate with the Vulcans about reunification . . . . .

Edwin
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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2004, 10:45:09 PM »

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he decided that Galileo was wrong and that the Earth really is the center of the Universe? That the Holy Spirit was guiding the Pope when he either instigated, or at the least, approved of WESTERN Christians slaughtering (what was it, 13 times?),  hundreds of thousands of people in the Crusades in the name of Christianity? etc, etc, etc.....

Reading the histiory of your church, I would not be questioning how the Holy Spirit operates in the EO Churches, I would be asking how it operates in yours.


Er. Tom, do you have any idea how ignorant these questions are?

I tried to find a more diplomatic word than "ignorant," but it really seemed like the mot juste. If I have offended, forgive me, but I don't know what else to say.

Do you honestly think Catholics believe the Pope is infallible every time he sneezes? That's a common misconception among fundamentalist Protestants, but ISTM an Orthodox should know better.

I'm sorry if that seems abrasive, but OTOH you seem to feel you can insult our Faith with impunity (and with more zeal than knowledge, frankly). Ben merely asks a *question*--and you respond with insulting cracks about Catholicism.

Moreover, you're very misinformed about the Galileo incident. Let's just say that you seem to have bought into the typical anti-Catholic Galileo Myth. Bob Jones, call your office. :p

AMDG,

Diane, wondering if non-proselytizing diplomacy means that we Catholics have to sit here and take it when our Faith and Church are grossly misrepresented



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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2004, 11:01:28 PM »

Thank you Diane!!!!

I did not see that post by Tom. I wish I would have, but I couldn't have put any any better than you did!

Tom seems to have brought a lot into Orthodoxy from Protestantism, inculding his grossly ignornant view on Papal Infallibilty and how it works.

My God the things that come from Tom, from this to his posts in the Immaculate Conception thread, I am seriously worring about Orthodoxy.

I don't mean to be harsh, just honest.
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2004, 12:00:56 AM »

Diane,

If someone posts something obviously untrue*, such as some of the things Tom said above, you are free to correct him.

anastasios

* I say this without malice.  But anyone who thinks the Church condemned Galileo just because of his theories of the world hasn't read up on the whole story, for instance.  It's hard to find the truth when the secular world, which is very anti-Catholic, repeats continuously such mistruths.
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2004, 10:42:11 PM »

I am still shocked people think Papal Infallibilty works that way. It amazes me how ignorant people can be.
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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2004, 09:30:49 PM »

Diane,

If someone posts something obviously untrue*, such as some of the things Tom said above, you are free to correct him.

anastasios

* I say this without malice.  But anyone who thinks the Church condemned Galileo just because of his theories of the world hasn't read up on the whole story, for instance.  It's hard to find the truth when the secular world, which is very anti-Catholic, repeats continuously such mistruths.


Anastasios,

This comment sparked my curiosity due to my own lack of knowledge surrounding the details/context of Galileo's condemnation.  What was the core reason why Galileo was condemned?  And why was this condemnation recently rescinded?  Like Tom, I too thought that he was condemned merely for advocating a heliocentric solar system.

Stephen
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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2004, 09:58:34 PM »

Unfortunately, I'm not sure where my copy of "Galileo's Daughter" is at the moment, but it is a most interesting book on the subject.  Both of his daughters were nuns and some letters survive between the father and one of the daughters.  Until I recall where the book is, I can tell you that Galileo didn't always suffer fools gladly.  He was opinionated and in some of his writings he let those who disagreed with him have it.  It was not a case of the RC hierarchy being anti-science.  The Pope and other high church men were part of a scientific society  (the "Lyncians" or Academy of the Lynxes)
Here is a page on him from the University of Cambridge:

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/galileo.html

It's brief, but what comes out is that there were misunderstandings, rumours, powerful people who had strong opinions, patronage or the lack thereof.  There's alot more on it in the book I mentioned.

Ebor

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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2004, 10:58:49 PM »

My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.

You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.

The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.

If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2004, 11:21:17 PM »

My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.

You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.

The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.

If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.


wow... I though that a change to an apostolic christian church would have change the protestant but I see that you carry alot of the protestant in you.

You need alot of prayers, fasting and ask God to forgive you and clean you. I have never seen an orthodox in your state.

btw, if you want to talk about being corrupted by the evil one... just look inside. cause what  comes out of your mouth does not come from christ. as a christian I must tell you that. christians don't talk like you do.

This goes for those catholics andprotestants that speak ill of other christians.

calling other christians names have never entered my mind. God forbid. cause oneday i will have to give account for all that I have done. persecuting another christians is persecuting christ.
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2004, 11:28:14 PM »

wow... I though that a change to an apostolic christian church would have change the protestant but I see that you carry alot of the protestant in you.

You need alot of prayers, fasting and ask God to forgive you and clean you. I have never seen an orthodox in your state.

Just so that a Moderator does not have to step in here -- this will be my final post on this thread.

I never gave ANY consideration to the RCC before I became Orthodox. It was never brought up when I was a Protestant that I can recall.

My views of the RCC have been formed based upon my reading of religious history SINCE I became Orthodox.

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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2004, 06:54:10 PM »

My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.

You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.

The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.

If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.


One of the things that convinced me to become Catholic was the consideration that any institution that made that many blunders and was not founded by God would have died off long ago.  Jesus' words "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" have application here.
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2004, 11:19:19 AM »

[My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.]

Tom, I realy don't think I am the misguided one here. Anyone who makes such prideful and hateful comments towards those looking into the Orthodox Church, truly can't be guided by God. I highly doubt, that you can dismiss every Roman Catholic layperson, Pope, theologian, and the thousands of great defenders of the Catholic Church, as nothing more than confused.

[You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.]

As for Papal Infallibilty, I don't think you get it. You mocked the Catholic dogma in one of your earlier posts, by asking where was the Holy Spirit when the Pope disgareed with Galileo, or when he called for the crusades. If you understood Papal Infallibilty, you would know we only believe the Holy Father to be infallible when speaking ex cathedra. However, he is a sinful human and can be fallible in his opinions. The Pope could very well not have been guided by the Holy Spirit in calling the crusades, but that wouldn't effect the Catholic teaching on the Papacy on bit.

[The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.]

And you are spiritually advanced enough to declare this with such pride? Have you discussed such thoughts with your spiritual Father?

From my expirence, this opinion is not very comon amoung Orthodox priests, many of whom have encouraged me to pray in Catholic churches when I couldn't get to Divine Litrugy.

[If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.]

I may be blind, and if this is so, I accept this and ask God to have mercy upon me and guide me. But I don't think it is such a good idea to insult those interested in Orthodoxy in such a way. If I thought you equaled Orthodoxy, or that Orthodoxy equaled you, I would end my interest in Orthodoxy right away.
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2004, 11:34:18 AM »

I'm in agreement with Ben, though I believe that a lot of us Latins are not corrupted or controlled by the "darkside", no more then "other" brethern.

Spewing harsh condemnations towards unknown brethern is truly a sin in my eyes.

james
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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2004, 06:24:26 PM »

[My poor misguided Ben and other confused defenders of the schismatic, corrupted RCC.]

Tom, I realy don't think I am the misguided one here. Anyone who makes such prideful and hateful comments towards those looking into the Orthodox Church, truly can't be guided by God. I highly doubt, that you can dismiss every Roman Catholic layperson, Pope, theologian, and the thousands of great defenders of the Catholic Church, as nothing more than confused.

[You really don't get it do you? I understand about papal infallibility (how it does not have anything to do with a single specifi acts of a pope). That Galileo was caught up in political intrigue.]

As for Papal Infallibilty, I don't think you get it. You mocked the Catholic dogma in one of your earlier posts, by asking where was the Holy Spirit when the Pope disgareed with Galileo, or when he called for the crusades. If you understood Papal Infallibilty, you would know we only believe the Holy Father to be infallible when speaking ex cathedra. However, he is a sinful human and can be fallible in his opinions. The Pope could very well not have been guided by the Holy Spirit in calling the crusades, but that wouldn't effect the Catholic teaching on the Papacy on bit.

[The whole Roman Catholic Church has been corrupted by the Evil One.]

And you are spiritually advanced enough to declare this with such pride? Have you discussed such thoughts with your spiritual Father?

From my expirence, this opinion is not very comon amoung Orthodox priests, many of whom have encouraged me to pray in Catholic churches when I couldn't get to Divine Litrugy.

[If this is not clear to you from the history of that den of vipers, then you are blind.]

I may be blind, and if this is so, I accept this and ask God to have mercy upon me and guide me. But I don't think it is such a good idea to insult those interested in Orthodoxy in such a way. If I thought you equaled Orthodoxy, or that Orthodoxy equaled you, I would end my interest in Orthodoxy right away.

what religious group does Tom's remark remind you of?
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2004, 05:39:42 PM »

I just left the byzcath.org Is the Ecumenical Patriarch making a power play? thread and have a few questions.

Is it safe here? What word is appropriate to use for those who are in the unia without offending them?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2004, 06:21:19 PM »

I just left the byzcath.org Is the Ecumenical Patriarch making a power play? thread and have a few questions.

Is it safe here? What word is appropriate to use for those who are in the unia without offending them?

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Brother Matthew,
Given that I know of no "uniates', only faithful who are in Catholic churches which are a product of the 'Unia', "Eastern Catholics" should suffice, with appropriate pre-apologies to Meliktes, Armenian Catholics, Maronites, Chaldeans, etal. who might find that uncomfortable.
I have been following that thread at Byzcath for a while but do not post there - we need to talk about it here.

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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2004, 06:22:04 PM »

Matthew --

Yes it is safe here.

I would suggest Eastern Catholics or Eastern Rite Catholics ... accurate and non-offensive to Byzantine Rite folks who are in communion with Rome.

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« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2004, 06:47:54 PM »

[I would suggest Eastern Catholics or Eastern Rite Catholics ... accurate and non-offensive to Byzantine Rite folks who are in communion with Rome.]

Since many of us who are Orthodox and as such, and also consider  ourselves as 'Catholic' how about just "Eastern Christians In Communion With Rome".  That should be acceptable to all.

[I have been following that thread at Byzcath for a while but do not post there - we need to talk about it here.]

Since I am probably one of those who is 'blamed' for the controversary in the 'other' site when I took issue to a Greek Orthodox woman who claims she witness the Pope being commemorated at a Liturgy conducted at St Vlad's six years ago, I would be glad to discuss the issues that went on in that thread.  But I think all that can be said has been said over there.  Including the confirmation from St Vlad's that such a commemoration has ever taken past either in the past or present (which I already knew).

Of course, when erroneous statements are made in that 'other' site and proven wrong you are labelled as rude and a bully challenging them and proving them wrong.

If someone reopens the subject matter I will be glad to discuss it here.

Orthodoc (OrthoMan on the 'other' site)

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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2004, 06:54:13 PM »

"Eastern Christians in Communion with Rome"

Hmmm, how about "Eastern Christian under Rome". The Eastern Catholics aren't just in communion with Rome, just as Roman Catholics they are totally subject to the Roman Pontiff.
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2004, 07:09:16 PM »

[Hmmm, how about "Eastern Christian under Rome". The Eastern Catholics aren't just in communion with Rome, just as Roman Catholics they are totally subject to the Roman Pontiff.]

Ben, I've been telling them that for years.  It's one of the main reasons they refer to me as mean spirited, rude, crude, and a bully.

You will get the standard -'We are a series of sui juris churches' in communion with Rome.  The part they just don't get is exactly what you are saying.... which is to be 'In Communion With Rome' also means to be under Romes authority.

Orthodoc

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