Abraham's followers, then, are Jews or Christians, or both?
As far as faith goes, it would be the Christians. As far as biological sons, mainly the Jews and Arabs, who became muslims. I showed that the muslims are not worshipping the same God as Abraham was worshipping.
In fact, before Islam, they were divided among Pagan worshippers, Christians, Jews. Clearly all these groups have no relation to the faith of Muhamed.
Do you believe that Jews worship the same God as the Christians?
NO, I don't.
What I wrote originally is that in courtesy and charity I will accept what a Moslem says when he says that he worships Abraham's God.
Thanks for clarifying, I thought this is a dogma in the church or so.
Are you aiming this at the cradle Moslem who may not have had the chance to hear the saving message of the Gospel or has been raised in an environment that makes it nearly impossible in human terms to hear the message in a non-confrontational, objective, and unemotional environment?
You have a point and I have no way of knowing how God will punish muslims. But this has little to do with our discussion as we are discussing the faith of muslims and how it related to christians. IMO, they don't worship the same God, and this is enough for me.
Without opening another subject, muslims are also not saved. I believe that everybody gets the message and gets to hear the Gospel. being captive to one's environment or else is not an excuse.
Many muslims, about 6 millions in Africa alone, according to AL-Jazeera network, are converting to christianity. Islam, when you get to read more about it, is a brutal, violent and unhuman religion, and anybody who really cares for the truth will reject it, and search for the real God. I am sure God will lead the way of this person seeking after Him to embrace christianity.
They have proclaimed a belief in Yehwa, even given that their belief in Yahweh, Abraham's God, is very imperfect, distorted, directed toward wrong ends, etc.
No, they don't. Ask any muslim clergy whether he believes in Yahewa, and he will rely with a simple no. Would you also assume that those who don't follow any religion, yet worship the unknown God, are worshippers of Yehwa?
Those of us who are born into Christianity have it easy
Yes, it is a great gift. But, it is by far easy in the West, I would not call the life of christians in Islamic countries as easy, at all. You have to live in Turkey, Egypt,Iran or Yemen as a christian to know how difficult it is to be christian.
It is the christianity in which the Cross is carried each and every day.
Those who come to Christianity from outside the faith--and this would apply to Moslems to coming this way--have the tougher road to travel.
I agree, I would add that muslims in particular have a very hard road if they convert to christianity. But we are not talking about converts right now, we talk about the muslims as practicing it and believing in Islam.
Just who will God judge the harsher, the infidel who does not make the journey or fails in that journey OR the faithful who neglect the Holy Faith? And what happens when/if we alienate these infidels by our demeanor towards them?
-God will judge those who neglected his gift harsher.
-I am not advocating mistreatment of the unbelievers.
But if you imply that we should appease them, then I strongly disagree. Away from the Pope's incident, would it not be easier if the martyrs did not die for the faith or offered incense to the idols, kissed their statues and confessed that they respect the Pagan worshippers faith ?
Love the unbelievers, but don't compromise the faith.
I recall that this passage is also about the early Gnosticism afflicting the Church. Does Islam have some origin in Gnosticism
And it can be applied to anybody who does not confess the incarnation or the divinity of Christ, among them muslims, buddists, JW,.....
I do recall that Islam conquered (NOT converted) a divided Christian community in the 600-700's.
Yes, it conquered a deeply divided christian Byzantine Empire. It was one of these incidents in history where all the circumstances were lining up to help the Muslims.
Did the heresy of Nestorianism have something to do with Gnosticism and with Islam?
Issa (Jesus) in Islam is a figure which is not easily described. It is more befitting the Arian heresy, but sometimes some Nestorian effects come into play, where he is clearly divine and then merely human. I explained in a post before in another thread the origin of Islam and its relation to christian heresies in more details.
If Christians go around to Moslems and say to them that they do not believe in the God of Abraham or that they worship a demon god, then they will never get around to converting them. Conventional wisdom supposedly asserts that it is nearly impossible to convert Muslims.
I agree with you, ridiculing somebody's belief is not the way to convert him. Explaining christianity to them and the fact that we are not polytheists will help them listen to you. Muslim clergy and media tarnish the image of christianity without giving an equal chance to christians to respond and defend christianity in the Muslim countries.
My concern is more the other christians who don't study Islam and they just believe whatever is presented in the media. (I don't mean you specifically, this is in a general sense). The liberal media wants this big group hug, and we should refuse to do so.
. But I will be respectful, courteous, and irenic when the occasion arises. Nevertheless, I will not agree to something that I don't believe in if or when I next get the chance to interact with the Prophet's followers
Very wise approach.
BTW, do you really think that JP-II worships Allah?
Of course not. I didn't give any opinion about the Pope kissing the Quran, and I just entered the discussion when I found something wrong about Islam.
Regarding his kissing the Koran, yes, it troubles me but I want to know the whole story first, not that I would ever kiss the Koran myself
Well, I think the problem is not with this single act, whether it is out of courtesy or for any other reason. I think this topic from the beginning was pointing towards discussing Pope's Infallability doctrine and other Papacy claims like the doctrinal development and so on.
Because if you are uneasy with the picture, you would have to reconsider such dogmas.
You have me at a disadvantage. I don't know who Jankiz Khan is?? Genghis Khan perhaps?
I spelled it as I pronounce it, so please excuse my English. It is Genghis Khan, the famous Mongul leader.
If Allah and Yahweh are two different deities, there is at least something in common between them--violence--if one were to take an overly simplistic & fundamentalistic view of Holy Writ.
You don't have to take an oversimplistic view. Compare the circumstances, the orders and the reasons why the masacres were undertaken in both cases, and come to an educated conclusion.
Did Judaism spread with the sword ? Did christianity take the way of wars to spread christianity ? Never. Even the Crusades were not christian wars, they took the Cross as a cover.
In the Quran, it is a clear order to kill the christians, Jews and all other non-muslim wherever they are, unless they pay a tribute.
If by this statement you mean irenicism, then I support JP-II without qualification.
We are told to live in peace with all unbelievers, but without compromising the faith. I didn;t mean to make any slanderous comments about Pope John Paul II or the catholic church. I just wanted to make sure that Islam is understood correctly.
As I told you, I am not praticularly interested in this incident as much as in the dogmas of Pope Infallability, which would be exposed if he acted in a wrong way in any incident concerning the faith.
Sorry for the long post.