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Author Topic: Artificial Birth Control  (Read 18929 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2003, 04:24:16 PM »

I think the problem that many people have who are  not originally Orthodox is that you cannot rid yourselves of the Catholic/Protestant concepts of sin.

Right. That has to be it. Could not possibly be that we might see some things that you can't, precisely because you were raised Orthodox and were taught not to question.
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« Reply #91 on: December 22, 2003, 04:27:28 PM »

But I don't regard the fasts as law (do others?). Sometimes I am able to fast; sometimes I am not.

If I'm not, I think God understands. The fast exists for my benefit. If I don't fast, I miss out on the benefit, but I am not sinning, and I don't feel guilty at all.

I agree with you entirely Linus7, and I don't normally like being in a position where I disagree with folks anyhow.

I explain (inadequately) to my non-Christian friends that the fasting rules of the Church are not like laws which must be obeyed for us to be accepted by an unwilling God, rather they are like the training regime that a world class athlete must follow if he wants to succeed. They are not the same as success by any means, but they are what must be undertaken in the normal run of things if we want to have a hope of succeeding.

I remember the desert father who had been wandering alone in the wilderness for a couple of months not seeing a soul, and then he bumps into a heathen shepherd and explains how his ascetic efforts have led him to endure such solitude. And the heathen shepherd says words to the effect, 'Yeah, it gets right lonely out here. It's been four months since I've seen anyone else'.

It is not denying ourselves that achieves anything, least of all buying some sort of acceptance by God. There is always a starving third world family eating less, or some poor confused girl with anorexia. But by following the Orthodox Christian spiritual fitness regime at least we have some hope of entering the race.

PT
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TomS
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« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2003, 04:27:33 PM »

BUT YOU POST THAT FASTING IS FOR MONKS ONLY...SO REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU PERSONALLY DO, YOU SPREAD MISINFORMATION....

No I did not Vicki.

I posted that my Priest said that the laity does not have to fast the whole 40 DAYS, just the last 12 days before Christmas. That he said the whole 40 day fast was for monks.

THAT is what I posted.
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Schultz
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« Reply #93 on: December 22, 2003, 04:31:20 PM »

What group could that be Schultz?

R...O...A...........


*whistles a random tune and looks about*

Hmm?  I don't know what you're talking about Wink
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TomS
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« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2003, 04:33:50 PM »

The difference there, is that Nik believes what the Canons say...you claim not to believe.

...there you go again (shaking my head ala Reagan)

Geez, Vicki. Go back and read my posts.

My posts state that I agreed with my Priests statement that not all all the Canons are relevant today. Isn't that what YOU are saying???!!!!

I never said that I rejected ALL the Canons.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2003, 04:34:22 PM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2003, 04:40:23 PM »

I explain (inadequately) to my non-Christian friends that the fasting rules of the Church are not like laws which must be obeyed for us to be accepted by an unwilling God, rather they are like the training regime that a world class athlete must follow if he wants to succeed. They are not the same as success by any means, but they are what must be undertaken in the normal run of things if we want to have a hope of succeeding.

Slava Isusu Christu!

I think this is a wonderful analogy, Peter.  My girlfriend's mother, born and bred Italian Catholic of the old school, was shocked when she found out I was fasting from meat during the Philipovka.  "Why are you doing that?  You don't have to, you know.  We only have to abstain from meat during Lent."

She was nearly beside herself in confusion when I informed her that I fast from meat and dairy during Great Lent, and from meat on Fridays (and Wednesdays when I remember it's a Wednesday!).  I explained to her that fasting is a means to an end, and not an end itself.  That was the intent of the relaxing of the fasts in the Latin Church, to break away from a legalistic way of looking at fasting, but, of course, it all went overboard and hardly anyone fasts at all anymore.  But I digress...

This is the same woman who projects a rather strong "holier-than-thou" complex, yet went to Communion for the first time in two years a couple weeks ago.  

I so love those Italian mothers!
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TomS
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« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2003, 04:43:26 PM »

Quote from Tom on e-cafe:

My GOA Priest says that this type of strict fasting is for monks and not for the laity. And further, that if anyone questions you about whether you are fasting that your response should be "None of your business!"
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Tom

Gosh...not what you just said...was it?HuhHuh Grin

Ummmm. We were talking about a strict fast for the WHOLE 40 days. And yes, that is what my Priest said because he feels that fasting is between you and God and is no one elses business.

Do you feel it is your business if I am fasting or not? Do you not have your own sins to deal with without searching out mine?
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« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2003, 04:46:04 PM »

Quote from Tom on e-cafe:

My GOA Priest says that this type of strict fasting is for monks and not for the laity. And further, that if anyone questions you about whether you are fasting that your response should be "None of your business!"
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Tom

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Slava Isusu Christu!

I think we're running to some original misunderstanding here that has degenerated into even more misunderstanding.

I was always taught that the canons are the monastic IDEALS and ones that the laity can and should aspire to.  That, I think, is what the priest may have meant when he said that the strict fasting was for monastics and not the laity.  

Monastics are, by nature, far ahead of us worldly types in terms of spiritual progress, at least in the strength and in a far more conducive environment to perform a strict fast.  A monk once told me after I buttered him up to a friend of mine, "My boy, it's easy for me to do what I have to do in comparison to the likes of you.  If we're on a fast, we're on a fast..all of us are.  You, however, have to live in the world surrounded by people who aren't fasting and who oftentimes tempt you to break your fast.  You are the stronger ones, those of you who resist those temptations on a daily basis, and even those who succumb after a struggle."
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« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2003, 04:49:01 PM »

Do you feel it is your business if I am fasting or not? Do you not have your own sins to deal with without searching out mine?

I agree entirely with you on this. I went to lunch once with an Orthodox contact. It was during one of the fasts. I had a veggie type sandwich and he had chicken. He said 'I don't keep the fast', I took a veggie sandwich and failed to keep the fast most other days probably.

What was worse? My appearance of being a professional league faster or his honest failure?

I know what would be best for both of us, but I'm in no position to score points against anyone since I find the role of white washed sepulcre comes so easy to me.

PT
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TomS
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« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2003, 04:52:21 PM »

My Priest IS THE CHURCH to me!
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TomS
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« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2003, 05:02:58 PM »

I think Vicki needs a "time out"
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TomS
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« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2003, 05:13:02 PM »

C'mon Vicki. This is getting embarrassing. I mean, why is it so important for you to "win" this?

The way it is supposed to work is that when we grow up to be big boys and girls, we are supposed to put these types of childish antics behind us. It's scriptural.

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the slave
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« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2003, 05:23:41 PM »

OK guys - no Mods/Admins about so I am going to play Mum here

Back off please and let the dust settle.

let's take some time out please
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« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2003, 05:24:39 PM »

Our virtual heirarchs are holed up in their palaces enjoying some prime rib, I bet Wink


JOKE!!!!
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« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2003, 05:26:11 PM »

Thread locked, obvious reasons.

Bobby
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