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Author Topic: Scriptural Proof: Mary is Not the Mother of God  (Read 33012 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2003, 12:49:00 PM »

and people wonder why protestants have issue with Mary. Sad  

Yeah, but they just react too strongly - only thinking she's some replaceable "vessel".  Ditto what Linus has said.


Anyone know what this mood thing is?  It seems to never change, I don't think I've really been sad that much while on the fora, even though it indicates so.  How do I change it?
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« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2003, 12:53:24 PM »

elisha: granted.  That's one of the biggest problems with the protestant reformation: they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.  Of course in regards to Mary, this did not happen until much later.  They had to reject History and thinking first.  Luther and Calvin and Swingli all praised the virtue of Mary and her role as Theotokos.
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« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2003, 01:01:59 PM »

elisha: granted.  That's one of the biggest problems with the protestant reformation: they threw the Baby out with the bathwater.  Of course in regards to Mary, this did not happen until much later.  They had to reject History and thinking first. Luther and Calvin and Swingli all praised the virtue of Mary and her role as Theotokos.
And from what I've read, John Wesley did pretty much the same.
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« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2003, 01:20:05 PM »

Quote
Anyone know what this mood thing is?  It seems to never change, I don't think I've really been sad that much while on the fora, even though it indicates so.  How do I change it?

Elisha.. go to the main page of the forum...in the upper left hand corner you'll see the mood indicator, and the other "smiley" options.  Click on whichever one you want.
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« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2003, 04:07:01 PM »

Here's more of the same thing I was talking about:
http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/mpthn_canon.htm

Note the first couple of paragraphs.  How is that not blasphemous idolatry?  Huh

(Note the last paragraph is identical to the passage I pointed out earlier from the Akathist.)

So much of Orthodoxy makes sense to me, particularly the relationship of Scripture, Church, and Tradition; apostolic succession and the visible church; and the nature of baptism and the Eucharist.  However, this excessive praise for Mary--blessed indeed though she was--is a HUGE stumbling block and makes me second guess all I've read and learned thus far.  :-

Honoring Mary and asking for her intercessions to God is one thing.  Calling her one's only "hope" and "refuge" and "guardian" and "protector" is something entirely different--that sounds like goddess worship.
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« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2003, 04:29:32 PM »

Does anyone know what the Akathist says in Slavonic.  Perhaps we are seeing translation problems/variances here.  Aren't both of these sites ROCOR/ROCA ?
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« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2003, 04:46:45 PM »

Here's more of the same thing I was talking about:
http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/mpthn_canon.htm
Note the first couple of paragraphs.  How is that not blasphemous idolatry?  Huh

It is as far as I am concerned. So you know what I was told to do -- DON"T ATTEND THE SERVICE.

I know that this is a refrain of mine, but you are never going to find a perfect Church existing on this miserable planet. All you can do is find the one that makes the most sense and not focus on the parts that you don't agree with.

Do what I do, and what my Priest suggested that I do, focus on the things that bring you joy and peace that the Church has to offer.

Remember I was once a Baptist too!   Wink
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« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2003, 04:54:15 PM »

Here's more of the same thing I was talking about:
http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/mpthn_canon.htm

Honoring Mary and asking for her intercessions to God is one thing.  Calling her one's only "hope" and "refuge" and "guardian" and "protector" is something entirely different--that sounds like goddess worship.

Doubting Thomas,

I am Orthodox and have troubles with statements like that as well.   In all Orthodoxy, these thoughts and the Akathist you mentioned before are the only things I have reservation about.  All the rest I accept 100%.  As a Roman Catholic I had the same feeling.  It is just hard for me to think of the Theotokos as the only "hope" and "refuge" and "guardian" and "protector"   There may be some other meaning to this that could be explained.
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« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2003, 05:23:04 PM »

Again, I'm glad I'm not the only one that has these serious reservations.

What can I say?  I feel somehow stuck in theological "no-mans' land".  On one hand, I know that sola scriptura is problematic and seemingly unworkable.  Historically, there seems to be an interrelationship between Scripture, Church, and Tradition which act together to proclaim and guard the truth. (Even some PROTESTANT scholars I've read admit this and acknowledge the importance of this interrelationship!)  Apostolic succession was taken seriously at the beginning of the church it seems, and the early church regarded baptism and the Eucharist not as mere symbols but actual points of contact with Christ.  Also, and perhaps most important, the historic apostolic church has had no notion of "Once-Saved-Always-Saved", particularly the easy-decisionist variety of the 20th and 21st centuries.  For these reasons, I don't see how I can remain a Baptist.

OTOH, I read statements such as cited above regarding Mary and can't see how such are not in violation of the First Commandment!  How can I enter a church that condones this apparent idolatry? If God has indeed promised to keep the True Church free from error, how did these controversial prayers enter that Church's liturgical life?  No, I don't "hate" Mary, and don't have any particular problem with such doctrines as her perpetual virginity or even her assumption.  She is rightfully called "Theotokos", because theologically that is correct.  But to go on-and-on in prayers TO her (and not merely asking FOR her prayers) as if she's some divine goddess, albeit officially inferior to God (with a big "G"), asking for HER protection, help, etc, doesn't seem at all consistent with apostolic Christianity.

So here I am in spiritual "limbo"--pray for me.  :'(
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« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2003, 05:24:48 PM »

[
I know that this is a refrain of mine, but you are never going to find a perfect Church existing on this miserable planet. All you can do is find the one that makes the most sense and not focus on the parts that you don't agree with.

Do what I do, and what my Priest suggested that I do, focus on the things that bring you joy and peace that the Church has to offer.

Remember I was once a Baptist too!   Wink

That may be what I have to do.  Getting my wife to go along will be a whole other issue.... :-";"xx
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« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2003, 12:16:36 AM »

DT -

Although I think some of the language used in the Akathists you've cited is excessive, it truly doesn't bother me that much.

I look on it as hyperbole.

One might use similar exaggeration in making a request of a friend. You're my only hope! You're the only one who can help me! You're my savior!

None of those things are literally true; but they are true in a hyperbolic sense.

Perhaps this is not the best explanation, but if one looks at the Akathist as a whole, at the fullsome praise for the Holy Trinity it contains, it is pretty obvious that no idolatry could be intended.

One must likewise view such language used in connection with the Blessed Virgin in the context of all of Orthodox doctrine. We know Mary is not divine. We know that anything she can do is because of her Son. What she accomplishes for us she accomplishes by praying for us.

It is definitely not Orthodox dogma that the Blessed Mother of God is our only hope, only intercessor, etc., etc.

That kind of language in the Akathist and other prayers is pious hyperbole.

If it bugs you, don't use it in your own devotions.

I don't. In fact, as I said, my prayer books don't contain it.

I love the Blessed Virgin Mary and praise her name. I honor her. I will fall at her feet and shower them with tears of thankfulness if I am ever blessed enough to enter her presence.

She is our only hope in the secondary sense that she fulfilled an absolutely vital role in the plan of salvation, and still fulfills a vital role. But in the ultimate, absolute, and final sense God alone is our Hope, our Refuge, our ever-present Helper.

Maybe someone will post a better explanation than I have done; but, in the meantime, try to keep in mind that Orthodoxy IS Christianity. Everything else is some sort of historical aberration.

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« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2003, 05:17:59 AM »

Thanks Linus, that is pretty much my take on the words and expressions used in this and other hymns, I'm just no good at expressing it. Just as taking a verse of scripture out of its context leaves it open to misinterpretation, so does taking a hymn out of the context of Orthodox theology and dogma.

Although I might have reservations about some of the expressions used, I trust God on his word that the gates of hades would not prevail against the church. Since these hymns have been accepted and used by the church for a very long time, I feel I have no choice but to humbly accept that I do not understand many things terribly well and simply be obedient to the church.

Saint Seraphim said that the goal of our lives is to acquire the Holy Spirit. Until I reach a point where I am able to retain the Holy Spirit, I am not likely to be able to properly understand those scriptures and hymns inspired by the same. Until such time (if ever), I will try to humbly submit my own proud thoughts to those of the church.

TomS, my humble apology for misunderstanding the intent of your earlier post. My pride again Sad

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« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2003, 08:35:02 AM »

Linus7 and Prodromos,

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic.  It is helpful and helps to put it all in the proper context.

It is a reasonable explanation to call the Akathist and other similar prayers a pious hyperbole.  I agree with viewing  such language used in connection with the Blessed Virgin in the context of all of Orthodox doctrine. In fact, I consider such an explanation rather insightful.

It is also reasonable to omit the use of it in private devotions, since it is not a required prayer such as the Pater Noster (Our Father) or the Creed.  In addition, prayers and devotions to the Holy Theotokos are not in any way mandatory in the way as they are to the Holy Trinity.  

In my understanding of Orthodoxy, prayers to the Trinity are necessary and essential to the Christian life and salvation, where as prayers invoking the aid of the Theotokos and the saints help us along the way, but are not necessary for salvation as prayers to the persons of the Trinity are.

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« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2003, 09:09:50 AM »

... where as prayers invoking the aid of the Theotokos and the saints help us along the way, but are not necessary for salvation as prayers to the persons of the Trinity are.

They are, however, highly beneficial Grin. They also keep us from drawing lines seperating the church triumphant from the church militant, we are one body after all.

John.
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« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2003, 09:12:44 AM »

Linus7 and Prodromos,

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic.  It is helpful and helps to put it all in the proper context.

It is a reasonable explanation to call the Akathist and other similar prayers a pious hyperbole.  I agree with viewing  such language used in connection with the Blessed Virgin in the context of all of Orthodox doctrine. In fact, I consider such an explanation rather insightful.

It is also reasonable to omit the use of it in private devotions, since it is not a required prayer such as the Pater Noster (Our Father) or the Creed.  In addition, prayers and devotions to the Holy Theotokos are not in any way mandatory in the way as they are to the Holy Trinity.  

In my understanding of Orthodoxy, prayers to the Trinity are necessary and essential to the Christian life and salvation, where as prayers invoking the aid of the Theotokos and the saints help us along the way, but are not necessary for salvation as prayers to the persons of the Trinity are.



I don't know man, from what your post reads, at least to me, you are drawing a very fine line in an almost scholastic approach. It's like saying, these prayers are mandatory but the rest are extra and superfluous. Or perhaps, you will go to heaven if you say the Our Father, but you won't affect salvation by saying a Hail Mary.  This seems very illogical and against the entire scope and mentality of prayer.

In MY understanding of Orthodoxy, prayers to the Holy Trinity, the Theotokos, and all the Saints are essential. We are worshipping with the entire heavenly host, together giving praise to our God.  Closest to God is His and our Mother. Isn't it fitting that glorification be mandatory for her too??

Bobby
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« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2003, 09:16:10 AM »

... where as prayers invoking the aid of the Theotokos and the saints help us along the way, but are not necessary for salvation as prayers to the persons of the Trinity are.

They are, however, highly beneficial Grin. They also keep us from drawing lines seperating the church triumphant from the church militant, we are one body after all.

John.

Absolutely right.

And I really liked your earlier point about the Holy Spirit, John.

The more one is filled with the Holy Spirit of God, the more one will want to honor those whom God Himself honors.

You also made an excellent point about trusting the authority of the Church. We know the Church Christ founded is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

She will not steer us wrong.
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« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2003, 09:52:21 AM »

.....for misunderstanding the intent of your earlier post. My pride again Sad

Oh Oh! See what happens when you hang around with Greeks!  Wink
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« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2003, 10:04:25 AM »

... where as prayers invoking the aid of the Theotokos and the saints help us along the way, but are not necessary for salvation as prayers to the persons of the Trinity are.

They are, however, highly beneficial Grin. They also keep us from drawing lines seperating the church triumphant from the church militant, we are one body after all.

John.

I agree.
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« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2003, 10:32:06 AM »

I don't know man, from what your post reads, at least to me, you are drawing a very fine line in an almost scholastic approach. It's like saying, these prayers are mandatory but the rest are extra and superfluous. Or perhaps, you will go to heaven if you say the Our Father, but you won't affect salvation by saying a Hail Mary.  This seems very illogical and against the entire scope and mentality of prayer.

In MY understanding of Orthodoxy, prayers to the Holy Trinity, the Theotokos, and all the Saints are essential. We are worshipping with the entire heavenly host, together giving praise to our God.  Closest to God is His and our Mother. Isn't it fitting that glorification be mandatory for her too??

Bobby

I think there is some misunderstanding of what I posted.  Also my use of mandatory does have a legalistic sound  that may have been a poor choice of words on my part.

I totally agree with giving honor and glorification to the Theotokos.  I also agree with the spiritual benfit of asking for the Theotokos and saints to pray for us.  My point is that that glorification and honor should never exceed or replace that for the Trinity as that is our ultimate source of salvation.  This is a key aspect that must be kept in mind in any prayer.
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« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2003, 10:48:13 AM »

It is also reasonable to omit the use of it in private devotions, since it is not a required prayer such as the Pater Noster (Our Father) or the Creed.  In addition, prayers and devotions to the Holy Theotokos are not in any way mandatory in the way as they are to the Holy Trinity.  

In my understanding of Orthodoxy, prayers to the Trinity are necessary and essential to the Christian life and salvation, where as prayers invoking the aid of the Theotokos and the saints help us along the way, but are not necessary for salvation as prayers to the persons of the Trinity are.


With Justinianus' explanation of what he means here in mind, I would also like to add that I am not sure if we can say this at all.  If it is purely in the realm of private devotions, then yes, maybe this can be said.  But there is a reason why Orthodoxy, no matter which rite you use (Greek, Syriac, Coptic, etc.), has ALWAYS incorporated prayers to the Mother of God and to the saints (either in general, or specific ones on their feast days, or specific ones who are important enough to be commemorated daily) IN THE LITURGICAL PRAYER OF THE CHURCH.  So I don't know if we can say that prayer to the Mother of God and to the saints is not necessary for salvation: certainly in the realm of liturgical prayer, which is very important (perhaps most important?) in the lives of Orthodox Christians, such prayer is specifically required.

Furthermore, you need to define what is a "private devotion".  I don't think you can compare the Akathist to the Rosary in this sense, because the Akathist can and is used in public liturgical worship (I think one can be said at Compline, for example?).  The Rosary would never be incorporated into liturgical worship in the RCC, however.  There is no precedent for that.  While praying the Akathist privately might constitute a private devotion, I think it differs fundamentally from the Rosary in this: that the former can/is used liturgically.  

In MY understanding of Orthodoxy, prayers to the Holy Trinity, the Theotokos, and all the Saints are essential. We are worshipping with the entire heavenly host, together giving praise to our God.  Closest to God is His and our Mother. Isn't it fitting that glorification be mandatory for her too??

Well, you're using "mandatory" just as Justinianus was, Bobby, and while it doesn't sound as legalistic as what he said originally, I still wonder if this kind of language is applicable to this situation.  If I had to make a choice, though, I'm on your side on this one.
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« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2003, 10:58:13 AM »

Linus7 and Prodromos,

In my understanding of Orthodoxy......



The understanding is that the Theotokos and the saints are worthy of veneration and honor and can pray for us.  Also prayers asking for their help are a spiritual benefit.  But the Holy Trinity is the ultimate source of our salvation and is deserving of the highest praise and honor.
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« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2003, 11:04:15 AM »

Yes, there is nothing wrong with saying that.  But whether such prayer to the Mother of God and to the saints is "mandatory" or not?  See my remarks for my opinion.
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« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2003, 11:17:30 AM »

Justin: don't tell the fundies that!! Shocked If they were to find out that those they perceive as **CATHOLIC** (because sadly they see all who are liturgical and sacramental as catholic) do not look to Mary for salvation, it would ruin one of their favorite tools against Catholics!!
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« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2003, 12:22:01 PM »

DT -

Although I think some of the language used in the Akathists you've cited is excessive, it truly doesn't bother me that much.

I look on it as hyperbole.

I guess that's a good explanation.  As you point out such language should be interpreted in the context of official Orthodox dogma which is emphatic in that they do NOT worship Mary.  I wonder though, if one were to ever bow at her feet in reverence, if she would respond in much the same way the angel responded to John in Revelation:
"Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.  Then he said to me, 'See that you do not do that.  For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book.  Worship God.'" Revelation 22:8-9.


Quote
She is our only hope in the secondary sense that she fulfilled an absolutely vital role in the plan of salvation, and still fulfills a vital role. But in the ultimate, absolute, and final sense God alone is our Hope, our Refuge, our ever-present Helper.

Right.  However, to the casual observer (ie skeptical Protestant) that "secondary sense" is not clear.  He (or she) reads or hears the hyperbole and gasps in horror.   Shocked

Quote
Maybe someone will post a better explanation than I have done; but, in the meantime, try to keep in mind that Orthodoxy IS Christianity. Everything else is some sort of historical aberration.

Yeah, that's what I keep coming back to.  Your explanation seems as good as any right now.  In fact, last night I was thinking about further theological justification for such hyperbole.  I'll post those thoughts when I get more time.... Tongue
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« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2003, 12:25:17 PM »

Regarding some of the hyperbole containted in the Akathist I cited, I wonder if some of it may be justified in the following manner:

1.  In regards, to Mary being the only "intercessor, comforter, and help", it should be noted that all three of these descriptions are properly ascribed to the Holy Spirit in the NT.  Perhaps, since the Holy Spirit "came upon" Mary and the power of the Highest  "overshadowed" her in such a unique way in the Incarnation, these exclusive hyperbolic statements may indeed be in acknowledgement of this unique relationship with the Holy Spirit.

2.  I understand that Mary was (and still is) regarded as a type of the Church.  Therefore, when one says he is seeking Mary's exclusive "guardianship" or "refuge" or "protection", could this be perhaps an acknowledgement of the mystical association between Mary and the Church?


Sorry, if these thoughts are off-base in anyway.  Maybe I'm just trying to rationalize how such seemingly idolatrous language is addressed to Mary when Orthodoxy maintains that Mary is NOT to be worshipped, particularly if I may be otherwise convinced that Orthodoxy is the True Church kept from doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit  :-
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« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2003, 04:18:21 PM »

Here's more of the same thing I was talking about:
http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/mpthn_canon.htm
Note the first couple of paragraphs.  How is that not blasphemous idolatry?  Huh

It is as far as I am concerned. So you know what I was told to do -- DON"T ATTEND THE SERVICE.

I know that this is a refrain of mine, but you are never going to find a perfect Church existing on this miserable planet. All you can do is find the one that makes the most sense and not focus on the parts that you don't agree with.

Do what I do, and what my Priest suggested that I do, focus on the things that bring you joy and peace that the Church has to offer.

Remember I was once a Baptist too!   Wink

Wow...I was not aware Orthodoxy was a faith like a buffet where the members could pick and choose. I have spoken with Orthodox priests about this issue and all were in agreement that Orthodoxy is the truth, it is Christ's Church and we can not pick and choose what we like and don't like. This is very shocking, I am most certainly reconsidering my interest in Orthodoxy. I believe Christ established ONE Church and ONE true faith that we can not pick and choose from, it doesn't seem like many feel Orthodoxy is that ONE Church and ONE true faith, if people did they wouldn't be picking and choosing!
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« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2003, 06:21:48 PM »

This is very shocking, I am most certainly reconsidering my interest in Orthodoxy. I believe Christ established ONE Church and ONE true faith that we can not pick and choose from, it doesn't seem like many feel Orthodoxy is that ONE Church and ONE true faith, if people did they wouldn't be picking and choosing!

Good for you. Then if this is what YOU believe, isn't that ALL that is IMPORTANT. Why get your panties all in a bind because I have a different experience and/or viewpoint.

Please, don't judge ANYTHING based upon what I say. Who am I to you? Listen to YOUR Priests and counselors. Sheeesh!

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« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2003, 06:25:57 PM »


Quote
Good for you. Then if this is what YOU believe, isn't that ALL that is IMPORTANT. Why get your panties all in a bind because I have a different experience and/or viewpoint.


That is not only what I believe but that the Orthodox Church teaches and what the early Church Fathers taught.

As far as getting my panties in a bind..I do not wear panties, and I would prefer you to watch what you say. You come off extremley rude.

Quote
Please, don't judge ANYTHING based upon what I say. Who am I to you? Listen to YOUR Priests and counselors. Sheeesh!

The tree is judged by its fruits, if GOA produces faithful Orthodox Chrsitians as yourself...then ROAC sure looks very attractive Wink
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« Reply #73 on: December 06, 2003, 06:33:51 PM »

But Ben,

WHY would you take anything that I say as a representation of the WHOLE teachings of GOA? That's just silly.

So what, boxers or briefs?

And if you are SERIOUSLY considering ROAC, then you should know that you would NOT be a part of the Church, you would be in schism.


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« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2003, 06:36:04 PM »

wow GOA faithful are not only ignorant of their faith, but also rude...hmmm words of Bishop Gregroy come to life!

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« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2003, 06:37:23 PM »

Bishop Gregroy

ROFL! He is NOT a Bishop of the Church! He is a Bishop of a CULT.
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« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2003, 06:39:06 PM »

hmm  you who pick and choose from the faith now becomes the judge of who holds the faith and who doesn't. Wow! An amazing role you have. You don't have to hold the faith, but you get to judge those who dont.
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« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2003, 06:47:35 PM »

hmm  you who pick and choose from the faith now becomes the judge of who holds the faith and who doesn't. Wow! An amazing role you have. You don't have to hold the faith, but you get to judge those who dont.

But Ben, the the ROAC is not in communion with ANY Orthodox Church under any recognized Patriarch. So it is not just ME making this "judgement".

And tell me, just what is the FAITH to you? What does it mean? And please don't just post a link to an ROAC website, because that would just show me what that AUTHOR believes is the faith.

Have you really contemplated this?

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« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2003, 06:50:46 PM »

Lol am I known for posting ROAC links?

The Faith....that is something I ponder and struggle with everyday as I am stuck between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. But what I do know is that there is one true faith, and one true Chruch established by Jesus Christ. And one can not pick and choose from the one true faith. As it says in the heading of this site "One God, One kingdom, One truth, One Church, One Faith"
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« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2003, 06:54:54 PM »

Lol am I known for posting ROAC links?

The Faith....that is something I ponder and struggle with everyday

As do I and every other Christian on this earth. If ANYONE tells you otherwise, then they are lying. Everyone is searching and doubting. That is what THEOSIS is about.

All I am trying to say is don't get hung up in the details. Christs love is NOT about details. "Love One Another as I have loved you" That is the main thing to keep in mind. If you do that, then I believe the truth begins to flower.

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« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2003, 06:55:58 PM »

Were you once a Protestant?
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« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2003, 06:57:33 PM »

Were you once a Protestant?

Yes. Baptist. Why do you think I have these issues?  Grin
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« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2003, 06:59:14 PM »

oh yes your past invlovment in the evils of heresy is obvious. Just confirming the obvious...thanks. And one might wonder why you didnt solve these issues you have with the faith prior to converting.
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« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2003, 07:07:15 PM »

oh yes your past invlovment in the evils of heresy is obvious. Just confirming the obvious...thanks. And one might wonder why you didnt solve these issues you have with the faith prior to converting.

But aren't you judging ME now, friend?

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« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2003, 07:08:14 PM »

No....I am simply asking why you didnt solve your "issues" with the faith prior to converting.
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« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2003, 07:09:52 PM »

No....I am simply asking why you didnt solve your "issues" with the faith prior to converting.

What exact "issues" are you talking about? I would be happy to tell you if you want to define them for me. And I am not being sarcastic here. I really would not have a problem telling you my reasons and views.
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« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2003, 07:11:03 PM »

Huh...why would I know what these issues are...you brought them up.
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« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2003, 07:12:14 PM »

Okay. 'Cause I don't think I have any issues that prevent me from enjoying the full Grace of the Orthodox Church. I am happy in the Church.
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« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2003, 07:13:42 PM »

but sadly you have enough issues to prevent you from attending certain services in the Church.
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« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2003, 07:19:07 PM »

but sadly you have enough issues to prevent you from attending certain services in the Church.

I guess you could say that. My Priest just says that if I have not reached that point in Orthodoxy where I am comfortable with a specific part, then he sees no reason for me to be forced into something that I am not ready to accept.

And he does not see my objection to some of these words (like defined earlier) as critical to my salvation. And isn't THAT what it is about?

Do you feel that you have to accept 100% EVERYTHING the church tells you?




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