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Author Topic: Novus Ordo v Tridentine Mass  (Read 7915 times) Average Rating: 0
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Byzantino
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« on: September 14, 2003, 10:06:18 PM »

Mainly for the Roman Catholics on this board...I'm curious to know your thoughts on the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass. Which do you prefer, why, do you think the change was a good idea, do you see a connection between the the change of Mass and the indifference and other problems within Roman Catholicism, etc..etc..

Briefly, I greatly revere and think there's something wondrous about the Tridentine Mass. My experiences were unforgettable.

Hope to see some interesting posts!

Regards,

Byz



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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2003, 07:57:10 AM »

I am a former Roman Catholic and preferred the Tridentine to the Novus Ordo.  It is not just the Latin.  The felt that the Tridentine was more revereant and keeping with the Holy Traditions of the church.  As a Roman Catholic, I would have preferred that the Tridentine was translated into the vernacular and used, instead of it being discarded and replaced by the Novus Ordo.

The Novus Ordo and the change in Church architecture made me feel like the Church was moving away from Traditions and embracing Protestantism.

Considering all the great Gregorian hyms and the works of Palestrina old and not modern and replacing them with guitars and modern style folk music made me feel less comfortable about the direction of the Roman Church and embrace Eastern Christianity with great enthusiasm.
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2003, 10:35:08 AM »

When I was a Ruthenian Catholic I attended the Mass of Pope John XXIII (1962 Missale Romanum) ala indult many times; I also enjoyed going to SSPX and FSSP Masses.  I can say that I also enjoyed the 1970 Pauline Liturgy in Latin celebrated with half pre-conciliar rubrics and with traditional vestments and Schola Cantorum.  The Western Rite people also can celebrate wonderful Liturgies as well.  I had also attended a few Eastern Catholic Liturgies without an iconostas and where communion was received kneeling that resembled a very interesting adaption of the traditional Latin Rite Cool But that was a blip on the liturgical EKG chart Wink

But now I am Eastern Orthodox; can we say Halleluia! Grin

Don't get me wrong we have our warts too Wink

In Christ our God,

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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2003, 11:23:57 AM »

<surface>

This seems like flame bait and off-topic on a message board that's supposed to be about the several versions of Eastern Christianity, including but not limited to Eastern Orthodoxy. I don't see any tie-in to the East here, just bait to elicit complaints about the RC services, which have their place, but not here.

We may not agree on some things but I dare say the near consensus here, with which I agree of course, is the Novus Ordo was a disaster and definitely 'a move away from the Christian East' (direct quotation from Archimandrite Serge [Keleher]).

The 'old' Mass has a lot in common with Eastern rites for several reasons.

At its heart is the Gregorian or Roman Canon, the anaphora or consecration prayer, which is even older than the two anaphoras in the Byzantine Rite today. Its lack of an explicit epiclesis points to that fact.

On my faith page there is a link to a page on a vagante site describing a fascinating real ordo of liturgy - a Russian text of the Byzantine Liturgy but with a version of the Roman Canon instead of one of the Byzantine anaphoras! A ROCOR priest, Fr John Whiteford, is quoted on the page, vouching for the authenticity of this so-called 'Liturgy of St Peter'. (Obviously the head of the apostles didn't write either the Roman Canon or the Byzantine Rite framing it here. But Catholics I'm sure will note that here a Liturgy with the Roman Canon is attributed to his authority - by Orthodox.) Long extinct from Russian Orthodox usage, some Old Believers had kept a manuscript. (That's right - the most extreme and xenophobic of the Russians preserved this!)

More on antiquity: I understand from browsing Joseph Martos (name?) or Basil Pennington, themselves no friends of tradition, that parts of the Roman Mass are so old that some texts (possibly including the Canon) from the time of St Ambrose - Roman times - would be recognizable to a traditionalist today.

Partly because it's so old at its heart, and partly because it evolved during the same period - the Middle Ages - as the Eastern rites, even though it largely evolved separately, it shares orthodox content and an objective, Godward style with them.

Despite the separate history and different cultures, there was some crossover. I've read that one reason why the Mass and the Eastern rites resemble each other, and have for a long time, is because circa 1000 the original, very simple version of the Roman Rite nearly died out amid the Dark Ages and corruption in the Eternal City. What came to the rescue liturgically was the now-extinct Gallican Rite, from France as the name says, which was elaborate because it had been influenced by the Eastern rites. The resulting Roman Rite, actually a Roman-Gallican hybrid from this point on, thus got an indirect shot in the arm from those rites.

Interestingly, both the Roman and Byzantine rites reached their final flowering, in forms recognizable today, by about the 1400s.

(The Tridentine reforms were claimed to be a restoration of primitive practice but of course weren't, partly because nobody knew how to get back to that.)

All traditional liturgies are collections of historical accretions. Writing one from scratch is both un-traditional and thus un-Eastern and is ipso facto a warning sign of protestant intent.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2003, 03:16:49 PM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2003, 12:54:47 PM »

Serge,

Even though I doubt that flame bait is the intention of Byzantino starting this thread, I hope your warning nonetheless suffices.

As someone who's been Orthodox since I was 12 and have only been to a handful of Masses in my life, what do all these abbreviations mean?  What is Tridentine vs NO?  What is FSSP and SSPX?  Mods, someone want to start a thread (and attach a "sticky" to keep it at the top) to explain all acornymns?  Thanks.
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2003, 01:46:41 PM »

<surface>

Elisha,

Good point - I'd thought of that too. Didn't want to presume Byzantino's intention but the posting did seem, well, unseemly to me.

Quote
what do all these abbreviations mean?  What is Tridentine vs NO?  What is FSSP and SSPX?  Mods, someone want to start a thread (and attach a "sticky" to keep it at the top) to explain all acornymns?  Thanks.

Again, it has nada to do with Eastern Christendom in any of its forms but here's a quick guide:

Tridentine: the RC Mass as handed down from the Middle Ages and standardized in 1570, resembling the Eastern liturgies ceremonially (as explained above) and done in Latin. This was replaced almost everywhere in late 1969 by...

NO: The 'Novus Ordo', a nickname taken from church documents in Latin that means 'new order', as in 'new order of Mass'. It's the RC Mass used in most places today, stripped of much of the old ritual and ceremonial. Most people make much of the change in language, as this is usually done in local languages.

Tridentine and NO could be seen as roughly like recensions (Greek, Russian, etc.) of the Byzantine Rite.

FSSP, SSPX: These have no real equivalents in Eastern Orthodoxy... roughly like separate, independent monasteries. RCs call groups like these religious orders - people who live something like monks but work in the outside world. The SSPX, the Society of St Pius X, was started in the early 1970s partly to keep the older Mass in use, exclusively; they were excommunicated by the RCs in 1988 after they consecrated new bishops w/o the Pope's OK. The FSSP, Fraternity of St Peter, then was started by SSPX members who wanted to stay in good standing with the Pope.

Perhaps the mods can post a glossary deciphering the alphabet soup of acronyms for Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions and explaining who doesn't commemorate or concelebrate with whom.

</surface>
« Last Edit: September 15, 2003, 03:06:05 PM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2003, 03:19:27 PM »

Well, Sege, I'd say that de facto the SSPX is the analogue now of the Old Calendarist groups in Orthodoxy.

A couple of comments besides. Liturgical reform is almost a given in the West. One can spin Trent in any number of directions, but down at the bottom is the principle that the liturgy needs a good housecleaning from time to time. Trent was neither the first nor the last.

Picking at the words of the rite is a bit pointless. In the first place, it's doubtful that anyone here has ever seen the Latin reference version of what is being called the Novus Ordo. I cannot find it on the Vatican site, for instance. But beyond that, NO hardly mandates the lousy way most American RC churches execute the rite-- or for that matter, the lousy way that they tended to execute the Tridentine rite in its last days. I suspect that if the SSPX does it better, it's because they care about doing it better in the first place.
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2003, 03:37:21 PM »

I have a copy of the N.O. in Latin and English in my Scepter pubs prayer book. The Latin has not been supressed.

That said, I prefer either (The mass of Trent or the N.O.) in Latin, with chants and smells and bells.

I despise the AmChurch (revisionist church of the American hierarchy) version.
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2003, 03:44:44 PM »

It's relatively easy to find the Latin text of the 1970 Ordo Missae online or in certain publications.  I have a missal put out by Scepter which has it.  Other missals have it too.  You may not be able to find the whole Roman Missal online in the original Latin (publishers need to sell books, I presume), but the Ordinary can be had from a few places.
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2003, 04:28:34 PM »

Mainly for the Roman Catholics on this board...I'm curious to know your thoughts on the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass. Which do you prefer, why, do you think the change was a good idea, do you see a connection between the the change of Mass and the indifference and other problems within Roman Catholicism, etc..etc..

Briefly, I greatly revere and think there's something wondrous about the Tridentine Mass. My experiences were unforgettable.

Hope to see some interesting posts!

Regards,

Byz





The Tridentine Mass certainly left one with the feeling that they were in the very presence of God. However one should understand that the Mass has evolved and has been different depending on the age in history we are looking at. The Mass took on the style that ended up as the Tridentine Mass, as the Church evolved the role of the Priest and minimised the role of the laity.
The Vatican II changes were meant to include the participation of the laity in an increased manner as it used to be in the very early Church. I believe this is a good idea but I agree that certain changes caused confusion and have negatively impacted on reverence and the feeling of being in the presence of God. Unfortunately the laity still just kind of observes and doesn't really participate as much as the the Novus Ordo intended. I guess the prot's are right when they refer to us as the "frozen chosen".
The other thing good about the Latin Mass was no matter where in the world you went you could follow the Mass. Now if you don't speak the local language you are at a loss.

If I had the choice I would Go back to having the Tabernacle in the center. I would leave the altar where it is now, with the Priest facing the congregation. I would leave the language as the local language but provide at least one Latin Mass be offered every Sunday for those who prefer it. I would use the old hymns routinely yet continue to use some of the better newer hymns. And Priestly vestments, incense, Icons etc should all be brough back!
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2003, 04:32:54 PM »

OK, looks like I'm surfaced for the day!

Quote
Well, Serge, I'd say that de facto the SSPX is the analogue now of the Old Calendarist groups in Orthodoxy.

Good one - I'd thought of that too. They and groups like them also can be compared to the Old Believers - similar worldview, similar ecclesiastically. (Thought of that one back in ’88.)

Quote
In the first place, it's doubtful that anyone here has ever seen the Latin reference version of what is being called the Novus Ordo.

I have. Your point: the text isn't bad. Taken.

Quote
The Latin has not been suppressed

Right, and I tried not to say it has.

Quote
chants and smells and bells

I agree - the ceremonial is an issue - but...

Quote
I despise the AmChurch (revisionist church of the American hierarchy) version.


Well and good - agreed, but again, while this is the topic of this thread, what has this thread to do with Eastern Christianity or comparisons to it?

Again, it seems like it's baiting people to complain about what's happened to RC churches. (Why the bait?)

Related topics on target might include, 'How can the Orthodox take ecumenical dialogue seriously when RCs have trashed their churches and services?' and 'How can Eastern Catholics remain traditional yet be in communion with that?!', and 'Why did the Vatican tell Eastern Catholics to be traditional while at the same time it did what it did to the Roman Rite?'

Hypocrisy? Condescension? Bait and switch?

A quotation:

The story is told of Cardinal Kasper, who heads the Vatican congregation for dialogue with other religions. He recently attended a Greek Orthodox service. Some of you may know that their services go on for a very long time. Afterwards the celebrant said to him, 'I hope that you were not bored'. The Cardinal replied, 'no, not at all'. 'It did not go on too long for you then? Perhaps you think we might modernise it or make it simpler', the celebrant asked. 'No', replied the Cardinal. 'It should stay exactly as it is. It is very beautiful'. So the celebrant said, 'so why did you do all that you have done to your Mass then'?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2003, 05:27:20 PM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2003, 04:46:28 PM »

No, I'd say the words do matter. I've been to quite a few NO Latin masses, and in official missal that is used, the same banal ICEL translation is used as the English NO. So much was changed from the Tridentine to Novus Ordo-many phrases were shortened or deleted, as well as many ceremonial aspects-I know, Keble will say that they can be minimized for Western Christians, (or something like that).
Basically, even in its Latin form, the Novus Ordo is intriniscally inferior to the 1962 books.

P.S., in some dioceses, bishops behave like liturgical fascists, for example mandating that no masses be celebrated ad orientem-something which Cardinal Ratzinger disagrees with quite profoundly in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy. So, it doesn't matter what V2 said, or the rubrics say, but what the ordinary says.

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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2003, 04:56:52 PM »

Agreed - the vernacular paraphrase sucks.
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2003, 07:30:57 PM »

Mr. Serge I'm afraid you're ascribing motives totally foreign to my purpose for starting this thread. I hope I've already established that I'm not here on this board to cause trouble. This is a question I always pose to Roman Catholics who cross my path so I can familiarise myself with their spiritual needs. I may be converting to Orthodoxy but that certainly doesn't mean I won't be caring less about Roman Catholicism and the welfare of her flock. I've been trying to establish a possible connection between reform of the Roman liturgy and the facilitation of reunion between East and West, and I was interested in the input of the Catholics on this board. My method of asking simple questions first makes me benefit most from their wisdom, and with all these great responses, I certainly don't regret starting this thread.

Regardsm

Byz
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2003, 08:45:09 PM »

The modernist liberal heretics are at the helm of the Roman Church.

Traditions are forgotten and surpressed.

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, nuff said.

james
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2003, 09:07:20 PM »

The modernist liberal heretics are at the helm of the Roman Church.

Traditions are forgotten and surpressed.

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, nuff said.

james

While I miss many of the traditions. They are not necessairly essential to the faith. Traditions change with the times. We'll see. I trust in Christ and I'm confident the CHurch will change for the  better.
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2003, 11:39:01 PM »

Polycarp,

"Therefore, brethern, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle". ( 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ) .

No, holding to tradition means alot, that is one reason of many why I will leave the Roman Church.

james
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2003, 06:41:28 AM »

Polycarp,

"Therefore, brethern, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle". ( 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ) .

No, holding to tradition means alot, that is one reason of many why I will leave the Roman Church.

james


Hi James,
Cept Saint Paul is talking about traditions regarding salvation and doctrines. Not cerimonial traditions, otherwise we would be the same as the 1st century Church was. No vestments. Liturgy was much different and probably not even called Mass etc.
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2003, 07:06:39 AM »



Cept Saint Paul is talking about traditions regarding salvation and doctrines. Not cerimonial traditions, otherwise we would be the same as the 1st century Church was. No vestments. Liturgy was much different and probably not even called Mass etc.

I don't know about that. Did Paul write this letter before or after the christians were booted out of the synagogues?

John the unworthy.
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2003, 08:01:18 AM »

No, I'd say the words do matter. I've been to quite a few NO Latin masses, and in official missal that is used, the same banal ICEL translation is used as the English NO. So much was changed from the Tridentine to Novus Ordo-many phrases were shortened or deleted, as well as many ceremonial aspects-I know, Keble will say that they can be minimized for Western Christians, (or something like that).
Basically, even in its Latin form, the Novus Ordo is intriniscally inferior to the 1962 books.

P.S., in some dioceses, bishops behave like liturgical fascists, for example mandating that no masses be celebrated ad orientem-something which Cardinal Ratzinger disagrees with quite profoundly in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy. So, it doesn't matter what V2 said, or the rubrics say, but what the ordinary says.

Well, I go back and forth on the ICEL texts. There's no question but that a lot of them could have been done better and should be redone. (The Te Deum is particularly off-key.) On the other hand, liturgical Latin tends to make everything sound more ponderous than it actually is.

The liturgical fascism thing is a real problem. We get that in the Episcopal Church too, but it happens at the parish level for the most part, which means that the rector gets in a battle with the altar guild (and the altar guild often wins).


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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2003, 08:02:37 AM »

What I have seen most relevant about this posting is how Tradition is addressed.  The changes in the Roman Mass reflects the Roman's Church's overall attitude towards tradition.  The Roman approach to tradition and its modification sets it different than the Orthodox Church.  I can see the differences growing over time.

It has to be a point in dialog.  Why does the Roman Church continue to  move further and further away from its traditional roots and methods of worship?   The further it moves away from its past, the further it moves away from Orthodoxy.  

Of course Jesus Christ is the source of our salvation.  Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church over the last 2000 years that helps to guide one down the path to Christ the Savior.  By changing or eliminating Christ centered Traditions, a Christian can become adrift in a rough sea.
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2003, 10:49:34 AM »

What I have seen most relevant about this posting is how Tradition is addressed.  The changes in the Roman Mass reflects the Roman's Church's overall attitude towards tradition.  The Roman approach to tradition and its modification sets it different than the Orthodox Church.  I can see the differences growing over time.

It has to be a point in dialog.  Why does the Roman Church continue to  move further and further away from its traditional roots and methods of worship?   The further it moves away from its past, the further it moves away from Orthodoxy.  

Of course Jesus Christ is the source of our salvation.  Tradition is the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church over the last 2000 years that helps to guide one down the path to Christ the Savior.  By changing or eliminating Christ centered Traditions, a Christian can become adrift in a rough sea.

Ah, that phrase: "Christ-centered".

See, that's the very phrase that has been used to shoot down the basilican tradition that dominated western church architecture for a millenium. What could be more "Christ-centered" than literally putting the altar in the center of the church?

(putting on my Canterbury cap)

It's an old saw in the Episcopal Church that an ancient tradition is anything the previous rector did that you liked, and that the current rector doesn't want to do. It works even better when you never knew the previous rector, because then you can fantasize about how much better things were in the good old days.

By all accounts, all of the problems that beset the American RC church these days were latent for decades if not a century. The tradition of treating mass as a juridical obligation goes a long way back, but it is a tradition which cuts against doing the mass well. From an Anglican perspective I could make similar comments about the Orthodox machismo of packing more and more words into the liturgy.

The big difference is that the west has a tradition of criticism and revision, and the east does not. Hence it is entirely possible that, in thirty or fifty or a hundred years, the Roman liturgy could be significantly changed again (hopefully more positively than the last changes). The Orthodox liturgy may well change too, but whatever changes take place cannot be subjected to coherent examination. It's far more likely that it will generate more schism because of the prevalence of "no compromise!" attitudes-- especially as these are being brought in by converts.
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2003, 06:50:08 PM »

I'm Orthodox but I've been to Latin Rite and Novus Ordo Masses. I prefer the Latin Rite, very beautiful.

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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2003, 09:35:14 PM »



Cept Saint Paul is talking about traditions regarding salvation and doctrines. Not cerimonial traditions, otherwise we would be the same as the 1st century Church was. No vestments. Liturgy was much different and probably not even called Mass etc.

I don't know about that. Did Paul write this letter before or after the christians were booted out of the synagogues?

John the unworthy.

That dosen't matter there are no first century writings which describe a Liturgical worship of the Church which we could say is the same as any Mass celebrated in any rite Eastern or Western at present. No Priestly vestments.  No Tabernacle. The sacraments as we currently know them were also very different. My point is only that in reality many customs and traditions we've had in our lifetimes are not the same that have always been in the Church because all of them have changed over time. Technically we could develop even more beautiful traditions if we wanted to. Unfortunately the trend in the West has been to simplify everything making us look and sound more Protestant. I'm not that happy with it, but technically there is nothing wrong with it theologically.
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2003, 03:34:36 AM »

It's interesting that many people talk about an AmChurch, stating that the modernist crisis in the RC only affects the USA. It's a matter of fact that most of these abuses are occuring in countries that were originaly Catholic like Mexico and LatinAmerica, France, or Holland, where VII practices have gone far away from here.

I don't think anything good has come with this liturgy in the West. I worked briefly for a Catholic Diocese and published some VII documents in the net. Pope John XXIII originaly called for a renewal in the liturgy and with active participation, but not for a new liturgy, unprecedented and created by a comitee of modern men.

The crisis in the western church must be a matter of sorrow for eastern christians, because Church Unity is now almost a dead dream. Both Frankie Schaeffer and James Likoudis, being from different Churches, explained how this liturgy has become an obstacle for unity.

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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2003, 07:26:10 PM »

I've seen the Novus Ordo celebrated in a traditional manner, with chant, incense, etc.

I'm not saying I like the revision, but it can be done in a palatable, even beautiful way.

What you see at your local RC parish is the hijacking of the liturgical movement, and the Vatican has spoken out against this, even to the restoration of the Trad. Rite.

Believe it or not, things are getting better for us.
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2003, 10:38:09 PM »

Just for kicks here's a url that will take you to my parrish's on line Mass. I tape it every Sunday and put it on the web. You will need a broadband connection to view it. This weeks Mass has a baptism in it.

http://media.stonerivermedia.com/stm/OnlineMass.wmv

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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2003, 08:24:03 AM »

Just for kicks here's a url that will take you to my parrish's on line Mass. I tape it every Sunday and put it on the web. You will need a broadband connection to view it. This weeks Mass has a baptism in it.

http://media.stonerivermedia.com/stm/OnlineMass.wmv

Hi Polycarp

That's a good quality stream, do you get a lot of folk watching and how much bandwidth does it eat up.

I'm afraid I've been Orthodox 10 years nearly and I find it hard to cope with a band. Sad I'm just a chant groupee now. Smiley

It makes me want to see if I could get as good a video up on the net though.

Peter Theodore
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Saint Polycarp
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2003, 08:49:46 PM »

Just for kicks here's a url that will take you to my parrish's on line Mass. I tape it every Sunday and put it on the web. You will need a broadband connection to view it. This weeks Mass has a baptism in it.

http://media.stonerivermedia.com/stm/OnlineMass.wmv

Hi Polycarp

That's a good quality stream, do you get a lot of folk watching and how much bandwidth does it eat up.

I'm afraid I've been Orthodox 10 years nearly and I find it hard to cope with a band. Sad I'm just a chant groupee now. Smiley

It makes me want to see if I could get as good a video up on the net though.

Peter Theodore
Hello Peter,
I use Pinnacle studio 7 and render it as a windows media file. Internet bandwidth is 256 kbs. I have no idea how many folks are watching it. We don't have a hit counter. I use it mainly when I'm talking with soneone who calls Catholic Satanists or nonChristians or Mary worshippers etc. I tell'em to watch it and tell me where we worship Mary or Satan. LOL
I like the band thing if the songs are good. Some are, some aren't. But when the whole congregation is inspired to sing it always sounds good. Nothing like having a whole congregation singing to God.
Peace,
Polycarp
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« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2003, 08:23:22 PM »

I like a lot of Saint Polycarp's postings.

Nice work on the video, though nothing happens in parts for several minutes - I understand if you can't edit things out.

As for the service, thanks, but no.

The treatment of the sacrament reminds me of the cynical Renaissance priests saying, 'Bread you are and bread you shall remain'. Ugh.

Has anybody got streaming video links of Eastern-rite services?
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« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2003, 11:08:15 PM »

I like a lot of Saint Polycarp's postings.

Nice work on the video, though nothing happens in parts for several minutes - I understand if you can't edit things out.

As for the service, thanks, but no.

The treatment of the sacrament reminds me of the cynical Renaissance priests saying, 'Bread you are and bread you shall remain'. Ugh.

Has anybody got streaming video links of Eastern-rite services?

I don't edit anything out because I feel that if people are trying to follow online that they should get the whole picture not just a" for show version". I don't understand what you mean by the treatment of the sacrament? What is the problem you see?
Peace,
Polycarp
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2003, 10:29:59 AM »

<surface>

In the video (on a soundless computer) the clergy and servers acted like it was plain bread, which would make sense if they really were Protestants but not based on what the Catholic Church still says about the Eucharist.

I think I see what you've got planned as your argument - that the ceremonial signs of reverence to the sacrament called for in the rubrics of the traditional rites, East and West, are medieval developments and not essential. But that doesn't wash because 1) the early church also had lots of severe disciplines to balance that out - like excommunications for periods lasting years, public penances, etc. 2) Looking at English history, for example, when a practice is in place, often through organic development the way all old rites evolved and then codified practices in rubrics, to take that practice out is a sign of dodgy intent, even though the practice isn't ancient. This is part of the argument against Anglican orders - for a number of years there was a break in the intention to make bishops and priests as the church historically understands them, and certain practices were dropped to show that.

This organic development - just add, add, add with a little pruning now and then, again based on practicality and custom - is pretty much how I understand Eastern liturgies work. (And why there are different local and national recensions of the Byzantine Rite.) The Roman Rite as traditionalists understand it works similarly though the process is a bit more formal. As Keble might explain, it fills up with practices and extra saints' days, gets cleaned up, then refills.

There is a difference between a little spring cleaning and a wholesale rewrite. What Cranmer did to the communion service was a rewrite and one could argue (as some traditionalists do) that the Novus Ordo was one too for similar dubious intentions.

(In good Catholicspeak, it is 'valid' but was a whopping mistake in prudential judgement, one that can and should be fixed.)

As it was for the legitimate liturgical movement among RCs decades ago, which dreamed of congregationally sung chant Masses with incense and the divine office sung in churches across the land, so the Eastern rites can be an inspiration and working model for a restoration of your rite today.

I read recently that part of what went wrong at Vatican II was the liberals feigned the legit liturgical movement's real interest in the Eastern rites to get certain things they wanted - vernacular, communion under both kinds - then dropped that pose when they were done. The Eastern Catholics, particularly the Melkites who were quite vocal at the council, felt ill-used, because they were.

It's obvious that the results are miles away from the Christian East - the vernacular, token deacons and add-on epiklesis don't mean anything in that regard.

So no thanks to prefab services - the historic mainstream of Eastern and Western rites is great.

</surface>
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