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81
Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by Iconodule on Yesterday at 04:00:52 PM »
Just a hypothesis, but it may have to do with why the Saint was blind or when they were blinded. Some blind people keep their eyes closed all the time, but some, especially those that used to be able to see, keep them open.

If that were the case, we would see icons of blind saints with either eyes closed or open, depending on whether their blindness was congenital or acquired. The iconographic record does not show this. St Matrona stands out as an exception, and a very recent one at that. The hymns to her all point to the requirement that she be portrayed with her eyes open. Iconography and hymnography go hand in hand. They are counterparts, the visual and verbal expressions of what we believe.

The hymn you posted states that although she was blind her "spiritual eyes" were open. How can one depict spiritual eyes, without having them confused for physical eyes?

Icons depict what is heavenly, perfected and transformed.


As hymns to her attest, her infirmity was a blessing.

I think you need to make up your mind.
Also, a half-naked, emaciated crone with her ribs sticking out is your idea of heavenly, perfected and transformed?

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Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by LBK on Yesterday at 03:58:11 PM »
Just a hypothesis, but it may have to do with why the Saint was blind or when they were blinded. Some blind people keep their eyes closed all the time, but some, especially those that used to be able to see, keep them open.

If that were the case, we would see icons of blind saints with either eyes closed or open, depending on whether their blindness was congenital or acquired. The iconographic record does not show this. St Matrona stands out as an exception, and a very recent one at that. The hymns to her all point to the requirement that she be portrayed with her eyes open. Iconography and hymnography go hand in hand. They are counterparts, the visual and verbal expressions of what we believe.

The hymn you posted states that although she was blind her "spiritual eyes" were open. How can one depict spiritual eyes, without having them confused for physical eyes?

Icons depict what is heavenly, perfected and transformed.

But they do so based on physical realities.

Indeed they do, but icons are not photographs. The physical crucified Christ probably looked more like this:



than this:



But which one does the Church venerate?
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Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by Iconodule on Yesterday at 03:54:01 PM »
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Not for noetic prayer

Many strive towards it, few will achieve it. The majority,  including most non-monastics, have to "make do" with what I described. God can deal with us how He wishes.

We are talking about an icon of Saint Matrona, not "the majority, including most non-monastics."

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In another thread you took issue with a supposedly monastic practice infiltrating parish practice. Now it seems you're attempting to impose a monastic practice on laymen.  :o

We are talking about an icon of Saint Matrona, not the average layman.

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As hymns to her attest, her infirmity was a blessing. Her physical eyes were useless, her spiritual eyes could see the will of God. That's a gift very, very few of us will receive.

We are talking about an icon of Saint Matrona, not "us."

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Pure prayer is imageless.

Again, a very rare ideal. For the rest of us, icons and keeping our eyes open is a real help.

We are talking about an icon of Saint Matrona, not "the rest of us".

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It has nothing to do with my own taste.

Clearly it does. As is your wont, you are inventing rules and fabricating traditions to suit your personal taste. There is not a shred of evidence, from hymnography or iconography, to support your assertion.

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I'm content with what the Church has to say about this saint's spiritual gifts, which, in turn, should inform her iconography.

Clearly you are not content with what the Church has to say, since you feel the need to pontificate on things the Church is silent about.

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The inner light of God is expressed by the halo around a saint's head, and, where this is carried out, by fine gold highlights on the saint's garments. Both are ancient and well-established ways of depicting this.

Then there is no problem with Saint Matrona having her eyes closed, as long as she has a halo. Lex credendi, lex orendi.
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Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by HaydenTE on Yesterday at 03:44:41 PM »
Just a hypothesis, but it may have to do with why the Saint was blind or when they were blinded. Some blind people keep their eyes closed all the time, but some, especially those that used to be able to see, keep them open.

If that were the case, we would see icons of blind saints with either eyes closed or open, depending on whether their blindness was congenital or acquired. The iconographic record does not show this. St Matrona stands out as an exception, and a very recent one at that. The hymns to her all point to the requirement that she be portrayed with her eyes open. Iconography and hymnography go hand in hand. They are counterparts, the visual and verbal expressions of what we believe.

The hymn you posted states that although she was blind her "spiritual eyes" were open. How can one depict spiritual eyes, without having them confused for physical eyes?

Icons depict what is heavenly, perfected and transformed.

But they do so based on physical realities.
85
I don't remember the exact phrasing or where it was found.
I had the same discussion with Dzheremi, when he said Cyril said the difference was only in theory and he pointed to where Cyril said the "division" was only in theory.

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But the distinction being only theoretical is clear from the ecumenical councils.
Are you referring to any passage from the Councils besides the Anathema that you mentioned?
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Other Topics / Re: Last thing you ate
« Last post by Arachne on Yesterday at 03:43:55 PM »
Pancakes with brown sugar and Grand Marnier.
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I didn't come across a quote where Cyril said the "difference" was only theoretical. Rather, what I found was that Cyril said that the "division" is only in thought. In case you found something, I am happy to read it.

I don't remember the exact phrasing or where it was found. Perhaps someone else can chime in here. But the distinction being only theoretical is clear from the ecumenical councils. On this question I see no difference between us and the OO's.
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Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by LBK on Yesterday at 03:39:47 PM »
Just a hypothesis, but it may have to do with why the Saint was blind or when they were blinded. Some blind people keep their eyes closed all the time, but some, especially those that used to be able to see, keep them open.

If that were the case, we would see icons of blind saints with either eyes closed or open, depending on whether their blindness was congenital or acquired. The iconographic record does not show this. St Matrona stands out as an exception, and a very recent one at that. The hymns to her all point to the requirement that she be portrayed with her eyes open. Iconography and hymnography go hand in hand. They are counterparts, the visual and verbal expressions of what we believe.

The hymn you posted states that although she was blind her "spiritual eyes" were open. How can one depict spiritual eyes, without having them confused for physical eyes?

Icons depict what is heavenly, perfected and transformed.
89
Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by LBK on Yesterday at 03:38:36 PM »
The hymns to her all point to the requirement that she be portrayed with her eyes open.

They really don't.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.
90
Religious Topics / Re: Schlock Icons
« Last post by LBK on Yesterday at 03:36:53 PM »
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Not for noetic prayer

Many strive towards it, few will achieve it. The majority,  including most non-monastics, have to "make do" with what I described. God can deal with us how He wishes.

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The hesychasts disagree with you.

In another thread you took issue with a supposedly monastic practice infiltrating parish practice. Now it seems you're attempting to impose a monastic practice on laymen.  :o

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And Saint Matrona evidently did just fine without outward sight.

As hymns to her attest, her infirmity was a blessing. Her physical eyes were useless, her spiritual eyes could see the will of God. That's a gift very, very few of us will receive.

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Pure prayer is imageless.

Again, a very rare ideal. For the rest of us, icons and keeping our eyes open is a real help.

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The fact that you personally don't like this imagery does not constitute an unwavering tradition against them.

It has nothing to do with my own taste, but with what the church, through established tradition, has to say. I'm content with what the Church has to say about this saint's spiritual gifts, which, in turn, should inform her iconography. On St Seraphim's stoop, I have already posted on that. St John the Baptist is not shown as a headless figure holding his severed head on a platter, but whole.

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This supports an iconography of the saint with her eyes closed, and the light radiating from inward.

There is no support for your proposal. The inner light of God is expressed by the halo around a saint's head, and, where this is carried out, by fine gold highlights on the saint's garments. Both are ancient and well-established ways of depicting this.

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