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I always did suspect St. Mark of Ephesus of being a dirty ecumenist for going to visit the pope. If only the Serbs had been there to stop him from going.

Actually, Serbian bishops were threatened by Serbian despot Stefan Lazarević to be killed if they go to Rome to attend Florence Council. Serbia back then had strictest laws against Latin heresy, forged in 1340s. So Serbian bishops were the only Orthodox Church that did not attend the Council of Florence if i am not wrong. It is our long and great tradition to hate the pope. Have problem with that? Wanna piece of me?
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Other Topics / Re: What are your pet peeves and OCD's?
« Last post by Iconodule on Yesterday at 09:39:16 PM »
Jimmy Fallon truly blows. Mediocrity incarnate. Everything he does ends up being some sort of celebrity circle jerk.
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Melkites... they are such puppets of Rome, that even their Liturgy started to look so fake. And their bishops with Lenin style beards and fat necks, so fake Orthodox. Eastern Catholic movement is a wolf in a sheep's skin.
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with the addition of these three "saints": Ignatius of Loyola, John XXIII, and John Paul II, no doubt, more Melkites will join the Orthodox Christians.

How is this a bad thing?

Was this a top down decision (forced on the Melkites by Rome), or was this a bottom up decision (the laity forcing this on the hierarchy). Unfortunately, I fear it was a top down decision.

I am praying for the laity, that they do not lose the faith altogether.

Modifications in the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy were forced onto the laity with some Maronites joining the Melkites when the Maronites were forced to celebrate the Novus Ordo. These were top-down decisions.


Why are you acting as if Catholics are some awful heretics and considering some of their Saints is somehow a big blasphemy. Wahabi Islam much ??

Tell me please Maria, are the Catholic Christians who lost their lives in the Middle East the last year or so are real Christians and martyrs ? or are they heretics worthy of Hell just because they are not Orthodox ?
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Faith Issues / Re: Could an animal be a saint?
« Last post by Iconodule on Yesterday at 09:29:21 PM »
So a book published by schismatics and a local council, organized by Tsar Peter, which, among other things, required priests to report seditious confessions and banned the Nativity icon. Great authorities you've got.

And what do you have?  One article from an historical artistic blog? 

Written by an Orthodox iconographer who actually studies these things and knows what he's talking about. But really, the burden of proof is on the one claiming that the icon is "condemned", especially since said icon is quite traditional and widespread in the Orthodox Church.

Quote
The HTM Horologion may be written by schismatics, but its use has been more or less approved by the Greek and Antiochian churches here in America.

Which hardly amounts to endorsement of its entire contents.
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Other Topics / Re: W.A.G.-word association game
« Last post by Maria on Yesterday at 09:28:02 PM »
slimy
77
Orthodox-Protestant Discussion / Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Last post by Raylight on Yesterday at 09:25:12 PM »
As several members pointed out here. Saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer. It is harmful more than it is good, because it may be seen as lack of answer. It is like saying because the Bible says so. That doesn't explain that much or answer any question except for someone who is Christian and holds the Bible as the highest authority. It is like saying, God doesn't exist because Richard Dawkins say so.

So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 

Why are you asking for "a very clear Orthodox answer" to whether or not it is sinful to reject the inspiration of Wisdom when you begin by claiming "saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer"?

There are two questions in this thread, and both are two separate issues. 

My question of whether it is a sin or not to believe that the book of Wisdom is not inspired in the Orthodox Church is regardless of the reasons why it is included in the Bible. I'm not asking why it is in the Bible, I'm asking whether it is necessary to accept it as a book that is good for teaching, but not inspired. The members who said "because the Church says so" are not answering this question. they are trying to answer for my question of what is the Orthodox reply to the Protestant objections of including the book of Wisdom in the Bible ? Which is not an answer.
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What is so horrible about St. Francis and the Jesuits?

The Jesuits not only played a significant role in teaching and influencing Orthodox Christians in the Middle East, but they also instructed Orthodox Christian seminarians in Russia in the pre-revolutionary times. I knew several Russians who were converted to Catholicism in their youth while attending Jesuits schools, only to rediscover Holy Orthodoxy later on. Interestingly, they became Jesuits, but left the Jesuits when they were told to return to Russia and convert the Orthodox Christians to Catholicism.

How old are you?  The Russian revolution was in 1917.  How could you personally know Orthodox seminarians who converted to Catholicism attending Jesuit schools before the revolution?  And where were all these Jesuit schools in Russia before the Russian Revolution?

These Orthodox Christians have died now. I only knew them as very elderly in their late 80s or early 90s back in the late 1990s. The Jesuits had high schools all over the world, particularly in France, to which the Russian upper class and royalty would send their children. When these children were very young, they were trapped abroad in these Jesuit boarding schools, and many lost their parents to martyrdom in the Soviet Union. The Jesuits befriended these orphans and encouraged them to convert to Roman Catholicism.

I met a convert from Judaism who had been "adopted" by the Pope of Rome  during this time. This allowed him to stay in Jesuit schools, become a religious, and pursue an education. Years later he became an Orthodox Christian.

Because of their Jesuit education, these men have remained very ecumenist throughout their lives.
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Orthodox-Protestant Discussion / Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Last post by Raylight on Yesterday at 09:20:02 PM »
Ray,

I believe so.  There is no Orthodox Church that does not have the book of Wisdom in its canon.  All EOs and OOs have it and recommend it as inspired.

It's not necessarily a "sin" to have your doubts on it, but it certainly is something of importance in church tradition that should not be glossed over.



So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 
I fear you're not going to get a "very clear Orthodox answer". The general view is that God inspired many writings (Scriptures) which the Church uses in different ways. The Gospels are certainly the central texts since they present so very clearly the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. The Epistles and perhaps the Psalms are next in line. It gets a bit fuzzy after that. Does that mean that the Gospels are "more fully inspired" than the Psalms? That's doesn't seem quite right. So in the same way, books such as Wisdom are inspired but are not given the same prominence in our services or use for understanding doctrine. So as minasoliman says the doubt is not a sin, but the rejection of the teaching of the Church that the book is inspired is likely a sin. (I say likely since I'm not qualified to judge.)

You're trying to get the Orthodox way of thinking to conform with RC/Protestant ways. It's putting a square peg into a round hole.


Now I understand. Thank you both :)
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That is a rather nonspecific statement. What do you consider to be hell?  Some think life on earth is hell, some think it is the molten core of the earth, some think it is a city in Michigan, some say it is a spiritual state of being. Are you referring to one of these or some other conception?
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