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 71 
 on: Yesterday at 09:28:27 PM 
Started by JamesR - Last post by xOrthodox4Christx
The funny thing is that they'll interpret the flood literally, but they won't interpret hoc est corpus meum, touto estin to soma mou "This IS My body." literally.

Anyway, Biblical literalism was affirmed in 1978 in Chicago.

It's a reaction against perceived liberalism in Christianity.

 72 
 on: Yesterday at 09:27:23 PM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by Dan-Romania
If you cannot grasp the Trinity at least believe that the ONE GOD , the GREATEST ONE has become man. Start from there. Because Jesus was the Ultimate God in flesh.
So, when "the ONE GOD , the GREATEST ONE has become man" and descended on Earth which God was in Heaven at the time?
The same one.

 73 
 on: Yesterday at 09:26:55 PM 
Started by lubeltri - Last post by Irish45
I've been under the impression that Christianity has always allowed cultures to retain traditions that are no against the Gospel.  Was not Athanasius of Alexandria one of the first to truly use Hellenistic philosophy and rhetoric in his writings to DEFEND the faith?  Just because something isn't born out of the Church doesn't mean it diminishes the Church.  In fact, it often can enhance it.  Obviously as a Catholic I think the imagine is born out of the Church, but I understand why Orthodox Christians would be guarded against such an imagine being used for worship and prayer.  The real question that needs to be asked is "Does this image detract or enhance the Gospel?"  If I were looking at this form an Orthodox perspective I think it has more potential to enhance the Gospel as long it is the image alone and not the apparition.  In other words, the cultural aspect of the image would be useful but not the spiritual aspect of the image. 

Having said that, I am a Catholic and I cherish and adore both the Image and the message.   

 74 
 on: Yesterday at 09:16:56 PM 
Started by wgw - Last post by LBK
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IOW, what wgw has repeatedly affirmed. 

wgw has so far not stated whether his bishop is even aware of his hymnographic project.

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Nice.  I'll remember this when people lament misogyny on the forum. 

Please note the addition to my post. You must have missed the edit.

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You're outing yourself.  More than five decades of wide ranging experience in the Church ought to have disabused you of this naïveté.  It can work that way, but it can and does also work in at least a half dozen other ways. 

The words in bold are actually a paraphrase of advice given to me by the hieromonk I have quoted. If you're accusing me of naïveté, then you should level the same criticism at him.

 75 
 on: Yesterday at 09:07:04 PM 
Started by wgw - Last post by Mor Ephrem
So you're still appointing yourself as the one who "sees the need" for such a work.

Unless parishes of your jurisdiction elect members from among them to be ordained, the above is exactly how most people find themselves ordained in the first place.  It can't happen, though, if the bishop decides against it.  IOW, what wgw has repeatedly affirmed.  

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You still haven't said whether your bishop is even aware of your activity, let alone given his blessing for you to proceed.


What happens if he does have his bishop's blessing?  

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As for the current tragedies of which you speak, such are nothing new in history.


Nice.  I'll remember this when people lament misogyny on the forum.  

Quote
The Church doesn't work the way you are trying to make it work. It is the Church which evaluates and dictates the need by making its needs known to us. We then respond in obedience.

The bishop's office phones a certain priest, asking him "would you be able to do .... ?" The request might be to fill a parish vacancy, to take on a certain church project, to write a service for a newly-proclaimed saint, or to translate hymnography or hagiography from another language. The priest then approaches the faithful, either as a group or particular individuals, asking for help in fulfilling this project.

We don't just make things up because we feel like it...

Your approach is going about things completely backwards. This is not how the Church works.

You're outing yourself.  More than five decades of wide ranging experience in the Church ought to have disabused you of this naïveté.  It can work that way, but it can and does also work in at least a half dozen other ways.    

 76 
 on: Yesterday at 09:04:21 PM 
Started by wgw - Last post by PeterTheAleut
Quote
The best way to develop skill in any art is through practice.  Not that this is ordinary literature, but just as experienced icon writers produce better work than novices, so too with hymnographers.

The proper way to develop such a talent would be to select a saint, study the life of that saint and whatever else church tradition has to say about him or her, and try your hand at writings a canon or akathist for that saint, all under the supervision of an experienced hymnographer, and with episcopal blessing.

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Lastly I think it should be stressed that much of the beauty of the Orthodox Church transcends need and is based on desire.  We spend serious amounts of money on clerical vestments, iconography, woodcrafts of all sorts, vigil lamps and other oil lamps and candle stands, and exotic influence, not because of need but because of our love for the beauty of God's house, which for I think both you and I is more important than the love we might have for our automobiles, our tech gadgets, our own respective houses, our private wardrobes and so on.  That's why you care about this subject and that's why I love you as a brother Christian.  We may not see eye to eye on this liturgical issue but I sincerely believe our hearts are in the same place.

Desire, however sincere and well-meaning, means nothing if it is rooted in personal ambition and willfulness. The Church has long kept to a certain order, one which you continue to balk at.
"My priest-confessor has given me a blessing." That, LBK, is all you need to know.

 77 
 on: Yesterday at 08:50:38 PM 
Started by wgw - Last post by LBK
Quote
The best way to develop skill in any art is through practice.  Not that this is ordinary literature, but just as experienced icon writers produce better work than novices, so too with hymnographers.

The proper way to develop such a talent would be to select a saint, study the life of that saint and whatever else church tradition has to say about him or her, and try your hand at writings a canon or akathist for that saint, all under the supervision of an experienced hymnographer, and with episcopal blessing.

Quote
Lastly I think it should be stressed that much of the beauty of the Orthodox Church transcends need and is based on desire.  We spend serious amounts of money on clerical vestments, iconography, woodcrafts of all sorts, vigil lamps and other oil lamps and candle stands, and exotic influence, not because of need but because of our love for the beauty of God's house, which for I think both you and I is more important than the love we might have for our automobiles, our tech gadgets, our own respective houses, our private wardrobes and so on.  That's why you care about this subject and that's why I love you as a brother Christian.  We may not see eye to eye on this liturgical issue but I sincerely believe our hearts are in the same place.

Desire, however sincere and well-meaning, means nothing if it is rooted in personal ambition and willfulness. The Church has long kept to a certain order, one which you continue to balk at.

 78 
 on: Yesterday at 08:41:58 PM 
Started by wgw - Last post by DeniseDenise
 There will be a need for devotional material to support them and I, having a modicum of literary talent and liturgical knowledge, am readying myself for the bittersweet labor of composing sequences, akathists, et cetera, in their honor.


Do I dare ask who informed you about your modicum of talent?

 79 
 on: Yesterday at 08:38:36 PM 
Started by wgw - Last post by LBK
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However the practical motive is in part driven by the knowledge that the current tragedies in the Middle East and the Baltic, and indeed recent tragedies of the past few years, when all is said and done, may result in the identification of a number of glorified martyrs and confessors.   There will be a need for devotional material to support them and I, having a modicum of literary talent and liturgical knowledge, am readying myself for the bittersweet labor of composing sequences, akathists, et cetera, in their honor.

So you're still appointing yourself as the one who "sees the need" for such a work. You still haven't said whether your bishop is even aware of your activity, let alone given his blessing for you to proceed. As for the current tragedies of which you speak, such are nothing new in history.

The Church doesn't work the way you are trying to make it work. It is the Church which evaluates and dictates the need by making its needs known to us. We then respond in obedience. If martyrs and confessors arise from these oppressions, then, as has always been the case, the Church will call upon hymnographers, hagiographers and iconographers to write hymns, to write the lives, and to paint icons accordingly.

The bishop's office phones a certain priest, asking him "would you be able to do .... ?" The request might be to fill a parish vacancy, to take on a certain church project, to write a service for a newly-proclaimed saint, or to translate hymnography or hagiography from another language. The priest then approaches the faithful, either as a group or particular individuals, asking for help in fulfilling this project.

We don't just make things up because we feel like it. Iconographers are not at liberty to paint according to their creative impulses, simply because they are handy with pencil and brush. Hymnographers are not at liberty to compose whatever they like because of a perception of having literary talent. The works of hymnographers and iconographers are the proclamation of what the entire Church believes and espouses, and any work undertaken in these fields must be done in obedience to the teachings of the Church, and in obedience to one's bishop.

Your approach is going about things completely backwards. This is not how the Church works.

 80 
 on: Yesterday at 08:36:16 PM 
Started by JamesR - Last post by Gebre Menfes Kidus
Not sure about the historical origins of the specific literalist interpretation, but it is undoubtedly linked to "sola scriptura." To be fair, biblical literalists don't claim that every word in the Bible is to be interpreted literally. Poetry should be understood as poetry, proverbs as principles rather than inviolable laws, the Law as law, history as history, prophecy as prophecy, etc. And the literalists have a fair argument that if we deny the literal history in the OT, then how can we confidently  trust the historical words of Jesus recorded in the NT? I think the literalist position is too often mischaracterized. Of course, the Orthodox refutation of literalism is inherent in the rejection of "sola scriptura." We trust the Church to guide us in our biblical interpretation.

Selam

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