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 51 
 on: Today at 12:42:10 PM 
Started by Orest - Last post by Orest
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/world/europe/evidence-grows-of-russian-orthodox-clergys-aiding-ukraine-rebels.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

Quote
SLOVYANSK, Ukraine — On an overcast day in April, staff members at the municipal museum in this eastern Ukrainian town noticed strange goings-on next door at a cultural center run by the Ukrainian arm of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Groups of burly men nobody recognized entered the building, known as Villa Maria, carrying big canvas bags and wooden boxes. “We didn’t know who they were or what they were doing,” recalled Valery Stupko, a museum employee.

The next morning, he said, heavily armed masked men emerged from the same church cultural center and made their way on foot through back alleys to Slovyansk’s main police station. Within minutes, they had seized the police station and helped ignite what became a brush fire of assaults by pro-Russian rebels on Ukrainian security and government buildings across the east of the country.


Quote
A month after Slovyansk fell to the rebels, a group of Russian Cossacks arrived at a Ukrainian Orthodox church on Karl Marx Street and announced that they were seizing the property in the name of the Cossack Orthodox Army, said the Ukrainian Church’s local head, Archimandrite Savva.

 52 
 on: Today at 12:27:12 PM 
Started by Jetavan - Last post by DeFuret
Evil is simply a lack of good, not something that exists in a positive way. I'm not sure if the Archbishop thinks that God somehow created a "thing" called Evil. In any case, this is still better than some of the heterodox broad churches (which tend to stand in as a stereotypical representative of "all Anglicans" in some EO and RCC circles) who have openly atheist clergy.

 53 
 on: Today at 12:22:03 PM 
Started by Justin Kissel - Last post by J Michael
Wait, I'm confused, is he saying that some scientists get their credibility from their accidentally released sex tapes?  Tongue

Only the Armenian scientists.

 54 
 on: Today at 12:21:35 PM 
Started by Jetavan - Last post by DeFuret
Quote
They all share the same language
A bheil thu cinnteach mu sin?

 55 
 on: Today at 12:20:56 PM 
Started by Minnesotan - Last post by JoeS2
I agree that it was probably a gradual estrangement, and this may seem to you like mere historical quibbling, but did an Orthodox emissary place a formal notice of excommunication on the altar at St. Peter's in Rome, and did the Latin deacons run after him, begging him to take it back? Or vice versa? Who left whom, exactly?

During Holy Liturgy as well.  Really, bad taste.

 56 
 on: Today at 12:20:01 PM 
Started by Maria - Last post by PeterTheAleut
I bring you this post among many others which demand to know:

"What does this mean?"

"Why did you post this?"

"What are you implying?"

Because if we don't, bleegle morp splor de blinky bloo.

Also, 75.
No, 42.

 57 
 on: Today at 12:19:06 PM 
Started by Minnesotan - Last post by The young fogey
I agree that it was probably a gradual estrangement, and this may seem to you like mere historical quibbling, but did an Orthodox emissary place a formal notice of excommunication on the altar at St. Peter's in Rome, and did the Latin deacons run after him, begging him to take it back? Or vice versa? Who left whom, exactly?

I think the consensus on both sides now is this only affected the individuals involved, not the churches, which was how it was seen at the time, too, and anyway Humbert no longer had the authority to do it, I think because the Pope who sent him had died.

Likewise the symbolic lifting of the excommunications in 1965 was only symbolic (some Catholics think we're back together!) because the excommunications were of individuals (and no longer apply when you're dead) and didn't affect the churches; again if you want a cutoff year, it's when the Russians officially said no to Ferrara-Florence, in the 1400s.

 58 
 on: Today at 12:14:53 PM 
Started by Minnesotan - Last post by ialmisry
As a new Catholic 30 years ago  I had this conversation with a seminarian, a relatively older gentleman with a theological background (Assemblies of God to Episcopal monk and seminarian to Catholic postulant in a religious order): I thought the "Uniates" were the natural bridge for dialogue with the Orthodox, the perfect Catholic "interface" with you guys, and he set me straight right quick. "Oh, they HATE the Uniates! They think they're turncoats." So it would be with a Uniate Pope. Some Orthodox would love it. Some would hate it. So no net difference in our relations.

Mr. Podkarpatska, observing his own background (Greek Catholic in Slovakia), noted that Orthodox, and Roman Rite Catholics, who KNOW the Uniates personally don't hate them. Roman Rite Slovaks knew and thus understood his grandparents; the Roman Riters DIDN'T understand them in America, which caused splits to Orthodoxy. Most Greeks and Russians have never met a Uniate, thus...

I still say the Greek Catholics deserve a place at the table of ecumenical dialogue. The Russians still use them as an excuse not to talk, or for the patriarch not to meet the Pope, but that's a whole other can of worms, as Mr. Podkarpatska agrees: under the Soviets they committed crimes against the Ukrainian Catholics, stealing their churches and otherwise persecuting them, setting back Catholic/Orthodox relations (the Ukrainian Catholics I knew 30 years ago wanted nothing to do with you), yet the Russians claim they're victims because when Communism fell, the Ukrainian Catholics resurfaced and took their parishes back. But Rome-educated Greek Catholic clergy*, steeped in Orthodox tradition and theology, are a good "interface" to talk to the Orthodox, better than a Roman Riter who doesn't understand you, plus, as their existence as churches is part of what's being debated, they deserve a say!

*The most "Orthodox" Greek Catholic priests I've met were trained literally in the city of Rome.
We don't "hate" Eastern Catholics. A lot of us like them, and they often have a good understanding of Orthodoxy. It's just that they were converted to Catholicism by Poland from Orthodoxy, perhaps sometimes forcibly. It might be like having Janissaries running the Turkish Muslim side of interfaith dialogue between Greeks and Muslim Turks. Or like Ex-Catholic converts to Protestantism carrying out interfaith dialogue with Catholics.

Do you see what I mean?

Sounds like you like them because in person you know them.
Many of us do.

The Poles didn't directly force the Ukrainian and Byelorussian Orthodox to convert.

Pope St. Meletios I Pegas of Alexandria announced the nullity of the pseudo-council of Brest, as locum tenes of the EP and hence the highest authority in the Church of Kiev at the time-and having served in the Metropolitinate in Lithuania and Poland, as well as Ukraine.  That didn't stop the Vatican's minions from persecuting the Orthodox, who, both in the 17th and 18th centuries, called on the Czar to move west to defend the Orthodox and Orthodoxy.  You seem to approve of that persecution-beheading Orthodox archimandrites, hunting down Orthodox bishops, taking their parishes and giving them to the Vatican's control etc. to the point of denying it happened.
Actually they didn't care. They were ethnocentric bad guys in this story who did persecute those peoples, so those people tried to get relief by becoming Catholic, which didn't work; the Poles still hated them because they're not Polish. The Rusyn Greek Catholic mountaineers in Poland fought a guerrilla war against the Communists and lost; the Poles with gusto ethnically cleansed their part of the Carpathian Mountains, giving Rusyn Greek Catholic churches to the Roman Riters, just like the Soviets and the Russian Orthodox did to the Ukrainian Catholics.

I see what you mean.

Quote
Bring them all in?  Huh   When did we leave the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Huh

Yes, "bring them all in."

The Sunday-school answer as most here know is "1054!" but it's really more complicated. We would say it was a gradual estrangement in the Middle Ages. The Russians were in communion with Rome after 1054, which is why the moving of St. Nicholas' body to Bari is on their calendar and not the Greeks'; it happened after. If you wanted to pick a cutoff year, you could say when the Russians officially repudiated the Council of Ferrara-Florence, as the Greeks did in 1484.
hardly. The Metropolitan of Kiev John II wrote to Pope Clement of Old Rome in 1080 denouncing the Vatican's errors.
http://books.google.com/books?id=X8F9EghcuD8C&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=epistle+of+Metropolitan+of+Kiev+to+antipope&source=bl&ots=cBR5IVJ1gw&sig=RF3pWKk-oys1trMKJeI0NHhXZqc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_QIbVOqcGMSPyASTt4LYCw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=epistle%20of%20Metropolitan%20of%20Kiev%20to%20antipope&f=false
That was 7 years before the Translation, which happened when Met. John II still ruled as bishop in Kiev.

 59 
 on: Today at 12:14:06 PM 
Started by Minnesotan - Last post by katherineofdixie
I agree that it was probably a gradual estrangement, and this may seem to you like mere historical quibbling, but did an Orthodox emissary place a formal notice of excommunication on the altar at St. Peter's in Rome, and did the Latin deacons run after him, begging him to take it back? Or vice versa? Who left whom, exactly?

 60 
 on: Today at 12:13:35 PM 
Started by MarianCatholic - Last post by Mor Ephrem
Off topic, this is sad. I wonder what the Orthodox rate is?



Where's Raylight?  IIRC, he's our point man for that stuff. 

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