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 51 
 on: Today at 03:43:30 PM 
Started by Nicene - Last post by Clemente


1) Yes, the canon is not defined in the canon. No book says "I am divinely inspired, and am the final book of which this is true. Here is a list of the previous ones." If the universal church is correct in its acceptance as canonical of those, and only those, writings, then the guidance did of course come from elsewhere.

2) Yes, I am trusting that the church, guided by the Holy Spirit, was correct in the compilation it made.

3) The "other understandings" were not included in either the agreed canon or the ecumenical creeds - though I am aware that the matter of prayer for the dead would be validated if one accepted the Apocrypha as canonical.

Here is where your inconsistency lies. You are basically saying that you do not trust the Church to decide anything (or anything that you disagree with using your Sola Scriptura epistemology) except the Canon of the New Testament. (You seem to accept the Creeds only because you agree with them based on your interpretation of Scripture). The Canon is obviously not found in Scripture, you concede, so we cannot rely on Sola Scriptura to define it. The Church had to decide from amongst literally hundreds of documents, some of which are found herehttp://www.earlychristianwritings.com, what was considered Scripture. Yet, you trust that the Church and its salient Fathers in the first three centuries such as St. Athanasius were guided by the Holy Spirit. So, unless you question the Canon, you are implicitly trusting the Church Fathers. You concede this in you second point.

Yet that very Church and particularly those Fathers such as St. Athanasius clearly espoused a theology and ecclesiology that was radically different from the Baptist faith. How can you trust these Fathers, whose Christian faith you have to conclude was clearly in error in such matters as the Real Presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration and apostolic succession, to correctly be guided by the Holy Spirit in their selection of the Canon?

Don't you think that the theology of the Fathers, which you evidently believe was in error in its consensus (eg they essentially all believed in the Real Presence and an episcopal ecclesiology) could have influenced their very selection of the Canon? Perhaps they selected a Canon that supported their erroneous theology.

If the Father's final selection of the Canon was protected from error by the Holy Spirit, why not their understanding of that Canon? How can you say that the Fathers correctly identified orthodoxy in the selection of the Canon, when you do not believe they were orthodox? Clearly they did not find any fundamental contradictions between their orthodoxy and the Canon they selected, since their understanding of orthodoxy was the filter they used to select the Canon. Isn't it thus rather incomprehensible to assert, as you are doing, that their filter was in error--ie their understanding of true, Apostolic Christianity--yet they still managed to select the right orthodox Canon?

Can you identify any early Christian whose theology you agree with entirely or even substantially who also espoused the final NT Canon?

It would seem those such as yourself whose embrace Sola Scriptura can only really be consistent by rejecting a closed Canon; all other alternatives require you to submit to the judgements of a Church which you believe was in error. Martin Luther did this partially, though this alternative is also fraught with uncomfortable implications.

 52 
 on: Today at 03:42:56 PM 
Started by EY - Last post by EY
There is a difference between encouraging one another and holding one another accountable. My priest holds me accountable before God. I do not expect everyone in the parish to do the same. I do expect that everyone will encourage one another in Christ though.

The Lord himself commanded "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault. If he repents, you have won your brother".


 53 
 on: Today at 03:39:39 PM 
Started by Aindriú - Last post by minasoliman
Banned for posting homo...

 54 
 on: Today at 03:38:46 PM 
Started by EY - Last post by Porter ODoran
Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history
I am from a baptist/evangelical background and I didn't even know what these things really meant until I came to Orthodoxy. You must be going to a very different baptist/evangelical church than the ones that I attended throughout my life.

That is only recently. If you read historic baptist theology, it has always had a more rigorous take on discipleship, obedience, discipline, and evangelism.

In fact, the history has flip flopped. I find more Orthodox/Catholic being very weak when it comes to proclaiming the gospel to every creature, being violent against the passions of the flesh, holding others accountable to the law of Christ, etc,etc.....and I see the reformed baptists doing this almost in every congregation that holds to historic baptist theology.

I had to do my research about this because so many think, when I say I came from a reformed baptist church, that I came from a "pray the prayer", "walk down the aisle", and "ask jesus into your heart" kind of Christianity.

Well -- how do I say this kindly -- this (that I bolded) touches on something very representative of the Baptist ethos in America. The books and preaching were traditionally impressively vigorous and systematic (and of course almost always polemical). However, there is the contrasting quality in which a Baptist is content to take pleasure in the rhetoric while living an unexamined but "blood covered" life ...

 55 
 on: Today at 03:38:31 PM 
Started by EY - Last post by EY
Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history



I am from a baptist/evangelical background and I didn't even know what these things really meant until I came to Orthodoxy. You must be going to a very different baptist/evangelical church than the ones that I attended throughout my life.

That is only recently. If you read historic baptist theology, it has always had a more rigorous take on discipleship, obedience, discipline, and evangelism.

In fact, the history has flip flopped. I find more Orthodox/Catholic being very weak when it comes to proclaiming the gospel to every creature, being violent against the passions of the flesh, holding others accountable to the law of Christ, etc,etc.....and I see the reformed baptists doing this almost in every congregation that holds to historic baptist theology.

I had to do my research about this because so many think, when I say I came from a reformed baptist church, that I came from a "pray the prayer", "walk down the aisle", and "ask jesus into your heart" kind of Christianity.
Perhaps this is the part you are holding on to.  The Orthodox I know work hard and proclaiming the gospel and fighting against the passions of the flesh.  They do not, however, spend a great deal of time worrying about holding others accountable, we worry about ourselves and our own sins, not the sins of others.  I have enough to worry about in my own life that I don't need to go around my parish dictating to others what they should be doing in their life.  They are held accountable through the sacrament of confession, they don't need me to be a priest wanna-be telling them what they should be doing.

Well, apostolic Christianity always had a system of accountability. Read Matthew 18 and 1 Cor 5. We are our brothers keepers, not their judges. But we can still exhort one another, and restore each other to right living.

Apostolic Christianity also believed in regular confession, Saint veneration and the Real Presence of the Eucharist...

Yes?

 56 
 on: Today at 03:37:57 PM 
Started by Aindriú - Last post by TheTrisagion
Banned for posting homonymically

 57 
 on: Today at 03:37:49 PM 
Started by yeshuaisiam - Last post by minasoliman
I love and embrace St. Cyril's Christology, but I abhor his exemplified interpretation of what it means to follow Christ.


Selam

A fine answer. Perhaps being receptive to reasonable albeit at times poorly formed criticisms of YiM, he might find himself in better communion here.

I think odox preach Christ crucified, not Cyril sanctified. Let the latter be argued within, not without.

I have to admit.  You make a good point.


 58 
 on: Today at 03:36:33 PM 
Started by EY - Last post by TheTrisagion
There is a difference between encouraging one another and holding one another accountable. My priest holds me accountable before God. I do not expect everyone in the parish to do the same. I do expect that everyone will encourage one another in Christ though.

 59 
 on: Today at 03:35:01 PM 
Started by Aindriú - Last post by elephant
Baaaaaned!  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 60 
 on: Today at 03:33:42 PM 
Started by EY - Last post by xOrthodox4Christx
Well, to be truly honest. It seems that I am most spiritually enlivened when I go to a baptist/evangelical church that has the emphasis on conversion, repentance, the coming wrath of God, the need to be Christ-like, the urgency of evangelism, the practice of church disipline,etc,etc,etc. This is where I feel the "most" home at. Perhaps if Catholic/Orthodox churches were like this, I'd feel more at home there.

Yea....so this is why I am examining doctrine/theology/history
I am from a baptist/evangelical background and I didn't even know what these things really meant until I came to Orthodoxy. You must be going to a very different baptist/evangelical church than the ones that I attended throughout my life.

That is only recently. If you read historic baptist theology, it has always had a more rigorous take on discipleship, obedience, discipline, and evangelism.

In fact, the history has flip flopped. I find more Orthodox/Catholic being very weak when it comes to proclaiming the gospel to every creature, being violent against the passions of the flesh, holding others accountable to the law of Christ, etc,etc.....and I see the reformed baptists doing this almost in every congregation that holds to historic baptist theology.

I had to do my research about this because so many think, when I say I came from a reformed baptist church, that I came from a "pray the prayer", "walk down the aisle", and "ask jesus into your heart" kind of Christianity.
Perhaps this is the part you are holding on to.  The Orthodox I know work hard and proclaiming the gospel and fighting against the passions of the flesh.  They do not, however, spend a great deal of time worrying about holding others accountable, we worry about ourselves and our own sins, not the sins of others.  I have enough to worry about in my own life that I don't need to go around my parish dictating to others what they should be doing in their life.  They are held accountable through the sacrament of confession, they don't need me to be a priest wanna-be telling them what they should be doing.

Well, apostolic Christianity always had a system of accountability. Read Matthew 18 and 1 Cor 5. We are our brothers keepers, not their judges. But we can still exhort one another, and restore each other to right living.

Apostolic Christianity also believed in regular confession, Saint veneration and the Real Presence of the Eucharist...

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