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 41 
 on: Today at 09:51:14 AM 
Started by orthonorm - Last post by TheTrisagion
You can come visit me. I'll (or more specifically my wife) will whip you up some mean vittles.

In the alternate, Harrisburg has what is called Restaurant Row on Second St. that has a bunch of good restaurant. Molly Brannigans is always a favorite if you like an Irish pub type atmosphere. Stocks on Second is also a very popular spot. I've never eaten there, but my sister raves about it. Those are both more classic pub type atmospheres. A Harrisburg hole in the wall institution is the Sandwich Man which is a deli/sub shop. It is really cheap, but pretty good subs.

Central PA is mostly known for its PA Dutch food, but in order to get real PA Dutch food, you have to go to Lancaster which is probably a bit out of your way. Hershey also had a bunch of good places to eat but is rather touristy, although this time of year shouldn't be too bad.

 42 
 on: Today at 09:50:42 AM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by andrewlya
I myself had problems to understand trinity at the beginning. For one month a believed in God in the Arian way. But I started to understand that God don't want that we try to understand him by our mind, but by seeking the truth with our whole heart, our whole strength. And after seeking enlightment about the problem with trinity and Arianism with fasting( Vegan Diet), praying - with tears my perspective changed and I understood the trinity much more better. It was even more an understanding out of my heart than out of mind. Exactly as I understand and experience God with my heart, so I experienced the trinity with my heart. And afterwards my mind assimilate what my heart experienced.Smiley
We've to humble ourself so we can receive enlightment.
andrewlya, if you have an orthodox background, have you ever went to a confession? In your confession you can tell the priest that you have problems to understand the trinity. And because you humbled yourself in this way, God will give you for sure enlightment and you will get absolute doubtlessness regarding this matter.

No,I have not had a confession about Trinity...Many say that Trinity is a mystery, but if you read the Bible the Trinity is not commanded to be worshiped. There is another verse where Jesus refers to His own God in John 20:17: ' Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Jesus has not referred to Himself as God in the Bible only to His Father as God...

I know what you saying...my heart and my mind tells me the opposite, I pray every day and I ask God for His guidance to the right path. I pray directly to God the Father but finish my prayer in the name of Jesus as Jesus had taught us in John 14:13 "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son".




Yes, Jesus said to Mary, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God” (John 20:17).  But just as Christ referred to His Father as God, the Father refers to Jesus as God, “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever” Hebrews 1:8.

It's true that Jesus never says: "I'm God! (Be obedient to me)!" But the exaltation of Jesus as a man depended entirely on His self-emptying humility. True greatness, divine greatness, is the ability to be the least and to the least with the absolute certitude that it is externally and divinely important, that it is an imitation of God Himself. And the Father has this divine humility as well by referring his Son as God! The Father also never says "I'm God!".

What do you mean the Father never says "I am God"?? What about the Commandment "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me." Whereas not only doesn't Jesus say "I'm God, worship me" He actually commands us " Jesus answered, It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only' " in Luke 4:8. If we are Christians we should follow what Jesus commands us as these commandments are given by His and our God, His and our Heavenly Father.

 43 
 on: Today at 09:49:48 AM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by Nathanael
Quote
I know what you saying...my heart and my mind tells me the opposite, I pray every day and I ask God for His guidance to the right path

Start fasting as well.Wink Many Christians undervalue the power of fasting.
I am fasting, I have been fasting since my teenage years..
Great! Smiley

 44 
 on: Today at 09:42:42 AM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by eddybear
No,I have not had a confession about Trinity...Many say that Trinity is a mystery, but if you read the Bible the Trinity is not commanded to be worshiped. There is another verse where Jesus refers to His own God in John 20:17: ' Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Jesus has not referred to Himself as God in the Bible only to His Father as God...
That's not the whole story. Here are some passages to consider:

John 8:58, where Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM". The Pharisees go crazy as they rightly understand this as a claim by Jesus to be God.

Further on in John 20, when Jesus reveals himself to Thomas, Thomas exclaims "My Lord and my God!" and Jesus commends him for having believed.

Compare Isa 45:23, referring to the LORD, with Php 2:9-10, where the same phrase is used, but this time referring to Jesus.

Matt 28:18-20, where the Great Commission is in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


One of the simplest descriptions of the mystery of the Trinity that I have heard is: the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and God is one. Theologians have wrestled long and hard with how that can be, leading to the the creeds we now have, and theological statements that are sometimes too hard for me to understand. At the end of the day though, the Church's experience of God is Trinitarian. If your heart believes in the Trinity, but your mind has not yet caught up, then go with your heart.

 45 
 on: Today at 09:41:29 AM 
Started by Salpy - Last post by Remnkemi
So what I hear you saying Salpy is that if the two languages are linguistically related with small differences then choosing one over the other for liturgical services is not an impediment to understanding. Ok, I accept that reasoning.

But you said two thirds of all Armenians are born outside of Armenia. I assume that Armenian Americans have English as their primary language and I assume they are able to understand all forms of Armenian (within a certain degree). But English and Armenian (any form) are not linguistically related. Therefore, my original question still applies.

I can accept the need to have one language to unify divergent Armenians. I do not understand how one language changes or enhances a rebirth. There have been many churches who have experienced a rebirth with multiple languages. I suppose either method is helpful for the rebirth.

I hope I did not offend you or anyone else. I simply want to understand the anthropological and social reasoning for liturgical language choice in the diaspora.

 46 
 on: Today at 09:38:28 AM 
Started by Regnare - Last post by Regnare
I just read Numbers 5:11-31 for the first time. It reads:
Quote
11 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the Lord make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”
23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.
29 This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.
Am I seriously mistaken, or does this chapter show God commanding Israelites to administer abortifacients to their women, based entirely on their husbands' unsupported feelings of jealousy? If I'm not mistaken, how do we square this with the constant teaching of the Church that abortion is not acceptable?

 47 
 on: Today at 09:38:22 AM 
Started by Gorazd - Last post by TheTrisagion
Just curious, what made you want to join an Orthodox discussion forum?

This was one of the forums I joined several years ago when I was beginning to question Orthodoxy. I was bored last week, so I happened to pass through again. When I noticed this topic and DCBmoreOCF's observations about deficiencies in some parishes, I wanted to voice my support for DCBmoreOCF.

I don't plan to stay here and promote atheism if that is your concern. Smiley


I don't have any concerns, there are other atheists here and I get along fine with them.  I'm just always curious why people do what they do. I was somewhere on the agnostic/atheist spectrum for awhile and I hung out on forums that catered to my ideology at the time, but when I left that, I just kind of dropped off those forums just out of a lack of interest. A lot of people who have become atheist that were on here left, probably for the same reason I left atheist forums, just not much in common with a former ideology. Enjoy your stay here, for however long or short that might be.  Smiley

 48 
 on: Today at 09:36:04 AM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by andrewlya

"You shall not make for yourself an image":
God instructed Moses to create images. Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

You shall not bow down to them :
In ancient Israel, God did not want His people bowing down before images of Himself, because He did not have a body yet. But He knew that people needed to bow down before something, so He provided the Temple in Jerusalem for this purpose. The temple did not represent the image of God, but it did represent His presence. So God had His people bow down toward the temple:

But I, through the abundance of your steadfast love, will enter your house. I will bow down toward your holy temple in the fear of you. (Psalm 5:7)

Anticipating the day when He would become man, when His people would be able to have images of Himself, God taught His people to include many images in the context of worship. The Jerusalem temple included icons of angels, and early synagogues were covered with icons of many Old Testament saints.

The Word had not yet become flesh, so God’s people venerated the Word of God contained in Scripture. Even to this day, Jews bow toward the Torah scrolls when entering/exiting the synagogue, and also during special Torah services. Jews also kiss the Torah to venerate it. All of these ancient practices anticipated Orthodox Christian worship, including the veneration of icons.

Before the coming of Christ, the Jewish Temple signified God’s presence, and His people bowed down toward it. After Christ came, He referred to His own body as the true temple. Therefore, instead of continuing to bow down toward a temple building, we now bow down toward images of Jesus.

We also bow to one another, because Scripture says that every Orthodox Christian is a temple of the Holy Spirit.


When the Word became flesh, iconoclasm became idolatry. The Incarnation changes everything.

When Orthodox Christians bow to an icon of Christ, they are reminded that God now has a body.  Jesus is fully God, and fully human, and He is physically seated in Heaven even today. Orthodox worship represents God correctly.

When Protestants refuse to bow to icons of Christ, and they choose to bow down before nothing instead, their worship suggests that God has no body, and that the Incarnation hasn’t happened yet.  Their worship misrepresents God. They are bowing down before a faceless idol

And:Context is all important. The word could mean worship, or it could mean a simple sign of respect, or even affection in friendship as when David bowed before Jonathan. It is in this context that the word finds it's broadest meaning. However, when we apply the action to a god, it becomes an act of worship. In that act of bowing to a god, it is an indication of submission to it and that you will serve it. It is the person's heart which is critical; who are they serving? In the Bible, whenever bowing to God or an idol is mentioned, the context of serving that god is usually included, the implication being that it is to the exclusion of other gods. It is this attitude of being in submission to God that the word "worship" holds for the Jew. It is not just offering up words and bowing, but an attitude of the heart to serve God and Him alone.

I understand what you are saying but an icon of Jesus is not God Himself, God is everywhere, God is all around us...It's hard to explain but it feels a bit wrong to me to bow down to any images now after I have read and understood the Commandment, since it said not to bow down to any likeness in Heaven, which is where where Jesus is...




Then I'm afraid you don't understand the commandment. What is the purpose of the commandment?
The Commandment prohibits idolatery.

 49 
 on: Today at 09:34:37 AM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by andrewlya
Quote
I know what you saying...my heart and my mind tells me the opposite, I pray every day and I ask God for His guidance to the right path

Start fasting as well.Wink Many Christians undervalue the power of fasting.
I am fasting, I have been fasting since my teenage years..

 50 
 on: Today at 09:32:29 AM 
Started by andrewlya - Last post by andrewlya
“There is only one god, he begets not and I bear witness that Muhammad is His only servant and Apostle." This is a very very poor translation. lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muhammadun rasūlu-llāh. I'm sure we have some Arabic speakers here who would have to agree  Wink
Jewish voice, so what's the actual translation then?

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