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Ministry Forum / Re: Ideas for Explaining Orthodoxy in New Missions
« Last post by Volnutt on Today at 05:02:37 PM »
Just read them both LOL.

Links for posterity.
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Prayer Forum / Re: To get through difficult time
« Last post by Briven on Today at 05:02:28 PM »
Lord, have mercy.
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Prayer Forum / Re: To get through difficult time
« Last post by Sethrak on Today at 05:02:01 PM »
Lord settle this persons mind ~ let things come together so there is comfort without conflict ```
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Ministry Forum / Re: Ideas for Explaining Orthodoxy in New Missions
« Last post by Asteriktos on Today at 04:55:23 PM »
Maybe my problem comes from having become kind of cynical regarding "true Church" claims.

I guess (putting on my generic lost sheep hat for a moment) hearing something like "we're the Church that divided with the Roman Catholics in 1054, we're the national church of Russia, Greece, and a lot of other places" feels more honest and less spin doctored than variations on "since 33 AD" even if the latter happens to be true.

The juxtaposition of the quotes in the Modern Fathers and 8th-18th Century Fathers threads today is for you  :laugh: ;)
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Faith Issues / Re: Modern Church Fathers
« Last post by Asteriktos on Today at 04:35:12 PM »
Byzantine theology ignores the Western distinction between "sacraments" and "sacramentals," and never formally committed itself to any strict limitation of the number of sacraments. In the patristic period there was no technical term to designate "sacraments" as a specific category of church acts: the term mysterion was used primarily in the wider and general sense of "mystery of salvation," [2] and only in a subsidiary manner to designate the particular actions which bestow salvation. In this second sense, it was used concurrently with such terms as "rites" or "sanctifications." [3] Theodore the Studite in the ninth century gives a list of six sacraments: the holy "illumination" (baptism), the "synaxis" (Eucharist), the holy chrism, ordination, monastic tonsure, and the service of burial. [4] The doctrine of the "seven sacraments" appears for the first time--very charateristically--in the Profession of Faith required from Emperor Michael Paleologus by Pope Clement IV in 1267. [5] The Profession had been prepared, of course, by Latin theologians.

The obviously Western origin of this strict numbering of the sacraments did not prevent it from being widely accepted among Eastern Christians after the thirteenth century, even among those who fiercely rejected union with Rome. It seems that this acceptance resulted not so much from the influence of Latin theology as from the peculiarly medieval and Byzantine fascination with symbolic numbers: the number seven, in particular, evokaed an association with the seven gifts of the Spirit in Isaiah 11:2-4. But among Byzantine authors who accept the “seven sacraments,” we find different competing lists.

The monk Job (thirteenth century), author of a dissertation on the sacraments, includes monastic tonsure in the list, as did Theodore the Studite, but combines as one sacrament penance and the anointing of the sick. [6] Symeon of Thessalonica (fifteenth century) also admit’s the sacramental character of the monastic tonsure, but classifies it together with penance, [7] considering the anointing as a separate sacrament. Meanwhile, Joasaph, Metropolitan of Ephesus, a contemporary of Symeon’s, declares: “I believe that the sacraments of the Church are not seven, but more,” and he gives a list of ten, which includes the consecration of a church, the funeral service, and the monastic tonsure. [8]

Obviously, the Byzantine Church never committed itself formally to any specific list; many authors accept the standard series of seven sacraments--baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, holy orders, matrimony, penance, and the anointing of the sick--while others give a long list, and still others emphasize the exclusive and prominent importance of baptism and the Eucharist, the basic Christian initiation into “new life.” Thus Gregory Palamas proclaims that “in these two [sacraments], our whole salvation is rooted, sice the entire economy of the God-man is recapitulated in them.” [9] And Nicholas Cabasilas composes his famous book on The Life in Christ as a commentary on baptism, Chrismation, and the Eucharist.

Notes
[2] See, for example, Chrysostom, Hom. 7, 1 in 1 Cor.; PG 61:55.
[3] Chrysostom, Catecheses baptism ales, ed. A Wenger, Sources Chretiennes 50 (Paris: Cerf, 1957, II, 17, p. 143.
[4] Ep. II, 165; PG 99:1524B.
[5] G.M. Jugie, Theologia dogmatica Christianorum orientalium, III, (Paris, 1930), p. 16.
[6] Quoted by M. Jugie, ibid., pp. 17-18.
[7] De sacramentis, 52; PG 155:197A.
[8] Responsa canonica, ed. A.I. Almazov (Odessa, 1903), p. 38
[9] Hom. 60, ed. So Oikonomos (Athens, 1860), p. 250


--Fr. John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology: Historical Trends and Doctrinal Themes, (Fordham University Press, 1979), pp. 191-192
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Faith Issues / Re: Pre-Modern Church Fathers (8th to 18th Centuries)
« Last post by Asteriktos on Today at 04:33:35 PM »
We believe that there are in the Church Evangelical Mysteries [i.e., Sacraments of the Gospel Dispensation], and that they are seven. For a less or a greater number of the Mysteries we have not in the Church; since any number of the Mysteries other than seven is the product of heretical madness. And the seven of them were instituted in the Sacred Gospel, and are gathered from the same, like the other dogmas of the Catholic Faith.

-- The Confession of Dositheus (1672), Decree 15
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Also, Cossack, just a tip. But Board News is only for things pertaining to the state of this forum in particular. Stuff like this OP belongs in either Christian News or Religious Topics or Faith Issues. Just fyi :)
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Faith Issues / Re: Early Church Fathers
« Last post by Asteriktos on Today at 03:59:46 PM »
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Typical high stress street confrontation in which two people talk past one another for several minutes and just walk away thinking to the other is a nutcase lol.

It's funny to me that most everything he says in his speech is literally true (Jesus does save, He does want to live in you, He does want to set us free), but the sectarian details of interpretation in Evangelicalism vs. Orthodoxy wind up being highly significant.

I absolutely hate the assumptions that a lot of these Protestant ministries in Eastern Europe work off (that the Orthodox are spiritually dead, deluded, merely nominal, etc) and that only through becoming Evangelicals can they truly know Christ. At best, it's nothing but sheep stealing from one true (but different) church to another, at worst it's stealing people away for heresy.

Why can't this guy go spread Evangelicalism in Oceania or the Maldives where there are people who've arguably never even heard the name of Christ than to a place that's already flooded with competing Christian bodies as it is? :(
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