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Religious Topics / Re: Women’s Headcoverings
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:56:45 PM »
Well Jackie looked quite nice in her lace mantillas:
How does that qualify as a "head covering" when you can still see her hair? That's as far from the spirit of the tradition as those women in Russia who wear their head coverings with short skirts and bustiers.

Women covering their heads during worship is a two thousand year old tradition.  Some of the other things saints said we should or should not do fell by the wayside, but head coverings existed universally throughout the Christian world for two thousand years before being jettisoned by some churches in the late twentieth century.  Something that was used that long and that universally seems like it's more than just a "tradition of man."  That's especially so when the first saint to recommend it was someone as important as St. Paul.

I don't condemn those who don't cover.  But I do like my mantillas.   :)

I'm not saying it's a tradition of men, I'm just saying that some traditions are sensitive to the time period in which they were given. Matthew 19:18 is an example of God giving a nonpermanent ordinance based on the human context. Permitting married men to become bishop is perhaps another.

Head covering was right and good in those times and cultures in which a woman who did not cover her head was automatically suspect, which was true for most of human history in Europe. That is not as true nowadays.
Liturgy / Re: "Why We Need an All-English Liturgy"
« Last post by Father H on Yesterday at 11:54:07 PM »
I would argue that different melodies to the troparion for different languages is helpful, since it keeps them sorted out well. This does present natural bounds to how many different ones you can do, but it has the benefit of ensuring that the text is wedded well to the music rather than shoehorning awkward an unidiomatic emPHAsis onto the words. But people can generally learn new music fairly quickly if it's well done and melodic.

There is a natural boundary.  There is only one melody that stuck for Spanish, for example, that the parish was able to remember and sing naturally (this was made evident years ago trying several options after just one Pascha and Paschaltide of introducing it).  The rest had awkward placement of words and syllables. 
Religious Topics / Re: Women’s Headcoverings
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:48:54 PM »
I would argue it's the only reason that still exists. Few people today would understand the married vs. unmarried or the "this woman is not a prostitute" symbolism.
Liturgy / Re: "Why We Need an All-English Liturgy"
« Last post by Father H on Yesterday at 11:44:28 PM »
We have talked about this before and the conversation usually diverges into two streams:

1. The Great Commission can be accomplished best by using the vernacular. I will use here an even more explicit translation than our great friend Podkarpatska used: "18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28: 18-20 (my emphasis)

2. A hobby-like approach, mostly by scholars of various sorts that favor this and that language or translation that is not the vernacular. Some even believe in the efficacy of a "liturgical language."

Given the above choices, my choice is inevitable and clear.

Agreed, 100%

Although our ethnic backgrounds are different, Carl and I  share many common experiences growing up in the Church in families of Orthdox clergy. Like me, I suspect many of the "old ways", including the use of liturgical language since set aside in our lives, still retains an emotional resonance with him. And that's the key term here... "emotional resonance". We Orthodox go to great lengths to criticize our Roman Catholic and Protestant friends for allowing emotion to play a central role in their religious culture, yet when it comes to retaining Koine Greek or Old Church Slavonic many allow the emotional lures of each to obscure their judgment. I'm no absolutist....if my priest ever tried to totally "ban" OCS to the extent of one cleric I know who prohibited singing even a verse or two of Christos Voskrese , assuredly he'd soon be my ex priest. But vernacular by all means as the general rule.

Right, whether it be Mark or Matthew that we go by, the Gospel to every creature (Mark) or making disciples of every ethnos (Matthew) is the purpose.  I am shocked that a priest has prohibited singing Christos Voskrese!   And this is where the whole criticism of "pan-Orthodox" (multi-lingual with English as a base vs. "English ONLY EVER") in the op article is short-sighted.  Better in my opinion to add Spanish (and those of other ethnicities that may be part of our parishes but not of the "ethnic composition" of the original jurisdiction--i.e. Greek, Romanian, etc.) than to subtract languages.  Pascha is a time to demonstrate universality by multi-linguistics (Slav practice of reading Gospel in many languages at Liturgy or Greek practice of multi-lingual Agape Vespers readings).  In the case of the Paschal troparion, we need to add languages, not subtract.

There are times during the Liturgy when other than English may be used without breaking the flow, for example during the augmented litany (we recently started to do ot in English, Arabic, Greek, Spanish, Church Slavonic, French and Romanian). However, I think that there should be some constraints placed on the use of non-English in a parish that is a mission church or was founded as one. I am not talking about the reading of the Gospel during Paschal Liturgy in as many languages as possible, as called by the rubrics (we had 15 last year, but I continue to be disappointed in my failure to find somebody who do Hebrew). I definitely think that the major parts of the Liturgy should be only in English and that it is a mistake to repeat key parts (such as the Lord's Prayer, the Creed and the Gospel and/or Epistle readings). Regarding the Paschal hymn, it presents a problem to most choirs and to priests, because distinct melodies are attached to languages. At my DOS parish, we finess this issue with this practice: The priest's greetings are done in as many languages as he can, and the congregation tries to respond appropriately. This does lead to a bit of levity, but if you can have some levity during services, surely the Paschal services are the appropriate ones. Some such examples

Hawaian: Ua ala hou ʽo Kristo! Ua ala ʽi ʽo no ʽoia!
Klingon: yinqa' HrIyStoS! yinqa'bej!
East Texan: Christ is up! Yup!


Right.  I guess that what I didn't like about the op was the whole either/or with only two options ("all single-ethnic" or "All-'murikan") suggestion.  I will say that we "try" to do many languages of the troparion on the front side of Matins.  However, there are only about 5 that "stick" and that the parishioners know by heart:  Slavonic, Ukrainian, Greek, Spanish, and English.  These are the only ones that get repeated after the early Matins refrains.  I agree wholeheartedly on not repeating things where no repetition exists (Lord's prayer, creed, etc.).     
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion / Re: Natural Ethics in Orthodoxy?
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:44:18 PM »
But aside from a handful of areas, Christ's Law of Love is the same as the Law of Moses, especially in Orthodoxy were so much of the ceremonial cultus has been transformed into the rituals of the Church. Nobody is arguing that natural revelation is all that God has given to man.
1. Try 300 prayers at 12 am in night for relieving from your problems. One prayer at 12am = 40 prayers in daytime.
2. For guidance if have time go to Arizona monastery and speak with Father Paisios . One girl in my parish had cancer and went to Father Paisios for guidance. Father Paisios told her what to do and she did and was cured. Not saying that everything will be cured. I'm saying I know this girl and about her situation and this took place.
Other Topics / Re: W.A.G.-word association game
« Last post by Justin Kissel on Yesterday at 11:38:55 PM »
Other Topics / Re: W.A.G.-word association game
« Last post by PeterTheAleut on Yesterday at 11:29:07 PM »
Reviews / Re: New International Version
« Last post by PeterTheAleut on Yesterday at 11:24:52 PM »
I suggest using one exclusively is a bad idea.  I like to read the Murdock Peshitto, the KJV, the Douay Rheims, and the footnotes and explanations from the Orthodox Study Bible but not the text itself, just because I like my Thous and Thees.

Regarding the NIV, both Fr. John Whiteford and Hebrew scholar and Orthodoxy & Heterodoxy contributor Eric Jobe have blasted it for using dynamic equivalence.  And this is signifigant IMO, because the two if memory serves did have a mild row over the usefulness of the Masoretic text.

So if we view Fr. John as being on the right and Eric Jone as being on the left, if they both tell me to avoid the NIV, I will avoid it.  At any rate I've always disliked it.  The UMC replaced the KJV Bibles with NIV editions in my parish when I was like 8 or 9 and I recall reading the snarky, holier than thou Preface to the UMc edition which elaborated about how although the KJV was "the noblest work of English prose" it was rendered completely obsolete by its archaic style, the Dead Sea Scrolls et cetera.  And from that moment I became a dissident.  A few years later I resolved to be Orthodox but my departure was delayed by a combination of overseas travel and a nearby parish with a superb choir and organist and a very reasonable pastor who seemed to me to be a very nice guy, until the issue of gay marriage came up...   So the NIV and opposition to it did help me become Orthodox.  But while I was in Ghana the first time my hotel had a luxury NIV edition with detailed study notes which helped to pass the lonely evenings and alleviate homesickness.  I used to read it in bed and look up at the dismal failing chandelier and think of the true luminous glories of God.

But I don't at present have much use for it.

All Ill say is that it is wrong to insert wording that is not originally in the Bible in order to conform to a certain doctrine or belief, the examples of which I had given above. If one keeps changing the text to suit his own version how can we be assured that a translation of the original languages of the Bible is still the authoritative Word of God. Keep it original.

 We may as well agree to disagree. We are going in circles.Im done on this topic.

God bless.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that altering the words to support a given doctrine is a bad idea.  What's at issue here is the contention this has been done, at least intentionally. I'll give that when someone with a Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox bias reads a passage with two possible interpretations, they are probably going to assume the interpretation that would affirm their bias is correct.

Again, at issue here is your refusal to understand the intent and process of dynamic equivalence translation.
What is dynamic equivalence translation? Before you two continue to talk past your audience by tossing around that high falootin term, you may wish to define it so your readers can understand what you're talking about.
Orthodox-Catholic Discussion / Re: Dear Catholics and Orthodox
« Last post by JoeS2 on Yesterday at 11:24:32 PM »

Noooooo they are not Orthodox Christians.


They are Eastern Christians [Catholics] in communion with Rome.
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