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From this, however, it is clear that when in the Gospel the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the Father, he is to be understood to proceed as well as from the Son, even though in the Gospel this is not added. For ... I and the Father are one.

Usually heresy isn't this forthrightly stupid. So thanks for the laugh.
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Faith Issues / Re: Were the Church Fathers Subordinationist?
« Last post by Porter ODoran on Today at 12:36:54 AM »
I've read the Justin dialog a few times. This is very interesting. I guess I'd just caution that secondary literature tends to build a narrative and the narrative can easily take on a life and purpose all its own. The secondary literature usually also adopts the view of a certain school or theory, often one that's frankly evolutionary and critical in tone. So I commend you for turning to the primary sources and other Orthodox for a different perspective.

Well, this was the only place I could think of to go to ask other fellow Trinitarians about this.  ;) And yeah, I agree. I certainly am not completely convinced of everything that I had read in the secondary literature, especially after going to the primary sources. I don't have a problem with some theological developments though, the Church was just getting off the ground after all and all the terminology simply wasn't all there yet. The Trinity was there from the start, I think that is evident.

Oh I didn't remember you are Catholic. Well, we share these Fathers all the same, certainly! You're right about development of terminology and argumentation as various subjects came under scrutiny by the Fathers. You seem to have a good perspective going in. I hope others here with greater knowledge can come contribute to your thread.
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Faith Issues / Re: Were the Church Fathers Subordinationist?
« Last post by Isaiah53IsMessiah on Today at 12:32:30 AM »
A lot of the scholarly work I have been reading on the Trinity in the early Church tend to favor the view that the Church Fathers held to Subordinationism beyond just in the relational sense. I have been reading the Fathers alongside, and as much as I don't like admitting it, it really seems like they are. Does anyone have additional information? Anything to the contrary?

Try reading the actual fathers themselves rather than books merely ABOUT them and their thinking.  It will be worth it.

That's what I have been doing.
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Prayer Forum / Re: For my friend Madonna
« Last post by biro on Today at 12:31:15 AM »
Lord have mercy.

Most Holy Theotokos, pray for us.
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Prayer Forum / Re: For my friend Madonna
« Last post by IXOYE on Today at 12:16:13 AM »
Lord, have mercy!
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The Spirit is from the Son as from an agent. He does not "proceed from" the Son. A simple preposition is not enough to base your argument on. Especially in declined languages where prepositions can be very malleable. What you have to demonstrate is that St. Athanasios specified that the relationship of Spirit to Son and Spirit to Father are perfectly indistinguishable. Your quote does not offer enough to show that this was even the subject of his discourse.

so says you and your schismatic sect that is outside the Church of Christ

From this, however, it is clear that when in the Gospel the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the Father, he is to be understood to proceed as well as from the Son, even though in the Gospel this is not added. For those things which are predicated of the Father must be understood of the Son as well, Footnote even when predicated exclusively; as stated in John 17:3: That they may know you, the only God. And in 1 Tim. 6:15: Whom, that is, Christ, God will cause to appear in his own time- God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal. For these things are understood as true of the Son as well, because Father and Son are one in essence, as is asserted in John 10: 30: I and the Father are one.
Cum ergo habere spiritum ex se procedentem, sit commune patri et filio, sicut ea quae essentialiter dicuntur, ut ex dictis patet; cum dicitur in Evangelio, spiritus sanctus a patre procedere, intelligendum est quod procedat a filio. Eadem ratione cum in symbolo a patribus edito dictum est quod spiritus sanctus procedat a patre, intelligi oportet quod procedat et a filio; sicut cum in eodem symbolo dicitur de patre quod sit omnipotens, et visibilium et invisibilium factor, oportet quod et de filio intelligatur.    Since, therefore, to have the Spirit proceeding from oneself is common to Father and Son, exactly as anything predicated of them essentially, as is clear from what has been said, then when it is said in the Gospel (cf. John 15: 26) that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, he must be understood to proceed also from the Son; just as when in the same Creed the Father is said to be the Almighty, the Creator of things visible and invisible, the Son must be understood equally so.
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I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Papism is not the Church of Christ, it's a schismatic and heretical sect.
the papacy is biblical, proven here numerous times

The Novus Ordo is biblical, proven lots of places numerous times.

Yes, but it is Biblical in a Protestant sense.
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Faith Issues / Re: Were the Church Fathers Subordinationist?
« Last post by scamandrius on Today at 12:07:20 AM »
A lot of the scholarly work I have been reading on the Trinity in the early Church tend to favor the view that the Church Fathers held to Subordinationism beyond just in the relational sense. I have been reading the Fathers alongside, and as much as I don't like admitting it, it really seems like they are. Does anyone have additional information? Anything to the contrary?

Try reading the actual fathers themselves rather than books merely ABOUT them and their thinking.  It will be worth it.
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Sedevacantist,
I looked this up to show what I mean.
Quote
In the case of the episcopal consecrations for the Society of St. Pius X, nothing done applies to be called "schismatic." Though, yes, the act was disobedient (through force of events), no act conferring any "apostolic mission" was ever performed.

It is from the second to last paragraph in section G of "A canonical study of the 1988 consecrations" here's the link. http://sspx.org/en/canonical-study-1988-consecrations-3

No apostolic mission would mean no apostolic succession. That is why they can only operate with supplied jurisdiction due to the crisis.
I didn't say they weren't bishops but bishops without authority.
I would argue they were validly consecrated bishops ...without authority of apostate Rome is correct.
So is all that is required for a bishop to have apostolic succession is that they are validly ordained? There would be no way to tell where the hierarchy is. We would have to be our own magisterium too. Does an Old Catholic bishop have apostolic succession?

from MHFM
The “Old Catholics” reject Papal Infallibility and the dogmatic decrees of Vatican I.  They are unfortunately heretics and schismatics.
Here are the strong words of Pope Pius IX about the “Old Catholics”:

    Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae (#'s 1-4), March 23, 1875: "… the new heretics who call themselves 'Old Catholics'... these schismatics and heretics... their wicked sect... these sons of darkness... their wicked faction… this deplorable sect… This sect overthrows the foundations of the Catholic religion, shamelessly rejects the dogmatic definitions of the Ecumenical Vatican Council, and devotes itself to the ruin of souls in so many ways.  We have decreed and declared in Our letter of 21 November 1873 that those unfortunate men who belong to, adhere to, and support that sect should be considered as schismatics and separated from communion with the Church."

Pope Pius IX solemnly declared that Catholics must regard those as schismatics and separated from the Church who belong to, adhere to and support the sect of the “Old Catholics.”
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Faith Issues / Re: Were the Church Fathers Subordinationist?
« Last post by Isaiah53IsMessiah on Today at 12:01:32 AM »
I've read the Justin dialog a few times. This is very interesting. I guess I'd just caution that secondary literature tends to build a narrative and the narrative can easily take on a life and purpose all its own. The secondary literature usually also adopts the view of a certain school or theory, often one that's frankly evolutionary and critical in tone. So I commend you for turning to the primary sources and other Orthodox for a different perspective.

Well, this was the only place I could think of to go to ask other fellow Trinitarians about this.  ;) And yeah, I agree. I certainly am not completely convinced of everything that I had read in the secondary literature, especially after going to the primary sources. I don't have a problem with some theological developments though, the Church was just getting off the ground after all and all the terminology simply wasn't all there yet. The Trinity was there from the start, I think that is evident.
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