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Orthodox-Catholic Discussion / Re: Keep the Filioque
« Last post by Cyrillic on Today at 07:18:27 AM »
St. Cyril, "in that the Son is God, and from God according to nature (for He has had His birth from God the Father), the Spirit is both proper to Him and in Him and from Him, just as, to be sure, the same thing is understood to hold true in the case of God the Father Himself.", St. Athanasius "David sings in the psalm [35:10], saying: 'For with You is the font of Life;'because jointly with the Father the Son is indeed the source of the Holy Spirit." (St. Ambrose had said, "Learn now that as the Father is the Fount of Life, so, too, many have stated that the Son is signified as the Fount of Life; so that, he says, with Thee, Almighty God, Thy Son is the Fount of Life. That is the Fount of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit is Life, as the Lord says: 'The words which I speak unto you are Spirit and Life,' for where the Spirit is, there also is Life; and where Life is, is also the Holy Spirit."), St. Maximus ("By nature the Holy Spirit in His being takes substantially His origin from the Father through the Son Who is begotten" similar to St. Hillary,  "May I receive your Spirit Who takes His being from You through Your only Son."  and St. Tarasius ""And in the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds from the Father through the Son, and Who is acknowledged to be Himself God." similar to St. Hormisdas cited earlier.

This is not merely energetic procession, Cyrillic, but clearly refers to essence and substance, speak of consubtantiality and equality of the divine Essence in the Three Persons. The divine energies are common to each of the Three Persons and do not proceed from either one to the exclusion of the other, nor can it be said that the energies are begotten, or spirated. Persons proceed, are begotten, or are spirated. It is ad hoc to say St. Tarasius or any of the others are referring to simply energetic procession and such a hypothesis is excluded by the context which uses words like "takes substantially His being", "receives His being" is "acknowledged to be Himself God", "the same is understood to be true of God the Father Himself" etc.

From St. Maximus' letter to Marinus on the filioque, when some accused Rome of teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds hypostatically from the Son:

Quote
With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced the unanimous documentary evidence of the Latin fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the sacred commentary he composed on the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shown that they have not made the Son the cause of the Spirit — they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by procession; but [they use this expression] in order to manifest the Spirit’s coming-forth (προϊέναι) through him and, in this way, to make clear the unity and identity of the essence….

St. Maximus was under the impression that the Latins taught the filioque in the sense of an energetic sending (proienai), not a hypostatic procession. This is how you should interpret Greek fathers talking about the Spirit proceeding 'through' the Son.
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Orthodox-Catholic Discussion / Re: Keep the Filioque
« Last post by Wandile on Today at 07:02:28 AM »
Funny thing is many attribute the addition of the filioque in the creed as western in origin (Council of Toledo) but actually the first instance of this is in the east, at the Synod of Seleucia-Ctesiphon in 410.

The creed composed in Aramaic has the phrase "dmin aba wabra" and means "From the Father and the Son". The council also has explicit references to "the dominion of the Romans over the whole church". Just an interesting piece of history that many here seem unaware of.
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Prayer Forum / Re: Less than one month left...
« Last post by Cyrillic on Today at 06:34:23 AM »
16 more days!
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Convert Issues / Crucifix and Protestant Family Members
« Last post by Anastasia1 on Today at 03:21:37 AM »
How do you deal with Protestant family members that are uncomfortable with crucifixes because the Jesus (our Savior) is no longer on the cross, so it seems wrong to them to put a figure of him on it?
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Faith Issues / Re: Could an animal be a saint?
« Last post by LBK on Today at 03:10:36 AM »
For example, what if there were some armed men who were coming to burn down a church building with everyone in it, and a parishioner's pet dog stood in the way, guarding the church with his life and refusing to run away. The dog's barking alerts the parishioners and they escape through the back door with their lives, but the dog isn't so lucky. (Stranger things have happened). What would the Church make of such an event? It might be assuming too much to call the dog a martyr, since we can't really "read dogs' minds", as it were, to know for sure why they do the things they do. But a parish full of people are still alive thanks to him.

The Lord will take his zeal as his whole armor,
and will arm all creation to repel his enemies;
he will put on righteousness as a breastplate,
and wear impartial justice as a helmet;
he will take holiness as an invincible shield,
and sharpen stern wrath for a sword,
and creation will join with him to fight against the madmen.
Shafts of lightning will fly with true aim,
and will leap to the target as from a well-drawn bow of clouds,
and hailstones full of wrath will be hurled as from a catapult;
the water of the sea will rage against them,
and rivers will relentlessly overwhelm them;
a mighty wind will rise against them ,
and like a tempest it will winnow them away.
Lawlessness will lay waste the whole earth,
and evil-doing will overturn the thrones of rulers.

-Wisdom of Solomon, RSV

So does this mean that wind, rain, trees and the like can become saints?  :o

I somehow doubt it.
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Religious Topics / Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Last post by Clemente on Today at 03:04:59 AM »


First, it is cool that you expressed yourself openly here. Second, "Christians" who condemn you and hate you because of your sin are not Christians of good example. Your sin (homosexual sex) is not much worse than the sin of those who fornicate with women outside the marriage. Don't feel hopeless. For some reason, known to God, He gave us the laws to which we must obey. God will accept in to Kingdom only those who obeyed to his law and those who repented. Purified their soul. Some things are not to be questioned about God. He gave you a heavy cross, but you have no right, for your own good, to fail carrying that cross. Even 1000 years of earthy suffering is worth to spend only 1 second in Heaven. Imagine what a beauty awaits those who carry their cross to the end and defeat the devil and sin.

The love for your same sex partner is not the sin, but the lust you have for him is sin. People often mix those two words, they mix up love with lust. The love is what caring mother feels for her child. Love is when someone sucrifices their life for someone they care. But to have forbidden sex (same sex, sex outside marriage, etc...) that is not love, that is lustful sin, something that is from this world.

To be Christian, you must leave everything earthly in order to gain everything heavenly. It is up to you to decide. You shall either chose the way of the Gospel, or the way of the sin. You know, if you truly have faith, what awaits those who fail. And that is something you don't want. How terrible is to live in darkness forever with demons, without God and His Light of love for eternity. Those who end up there, they feel so horrible stupid because they didn't use the chance they had while they were on earth to prove themselves as worthy for the life in heaven with God and all His saints.

You must chose, there is no nice way to please your both lustful and spiritual needs.

I urge you to reconsider your life's choices.
+1
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Religious Topics / Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Last post by Clemente on Today at 03:03:22 AM »
That's right. It's reprehensible to hate homosexuals.

However, it's perfectly acceptable to hate "butt hurt" Ex-Evangelicals.
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Prayer Forum / Re: Difficult situation and relation with my priest
« Last post by hecma925 on Today at 02:34:54 AM »
Lord, have mercy.
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Religious Topics / Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Last post by JamesR on Today at 02:29:49 AM »
If you want my honest opinion, I would tell you that despite what you may see on Orthodox internet forums, the vast majority of the Orthodox Church is much more liberal (small-L) and accepting of homosexuality than you may think. There are LGBT folks who attend my parish and most real-life Orthodox people seem just as upset over the small but vocal strain of homophobic bigotry coming from Evangelical converts as you and I are. I would be open with my homosexuality if I were you. You may be surprised at how well your parish will take it. Internet Orthodoxy is much more unpleasant and uncommon than real life Orthodoxy.

Yes, of course. Evangelical converts are the only Orthodox who believe in that old fashioned, outdated, anachronistic concept called sin.

In real life Orthodoxy, as long as you can show that you have a bit of Greek or Slavic blood, you can be open about all your sexual experiences and the parish will celebrate it.

Believing in sin is a lot different from outrightly hating homosexuals and judging them for their orientation despite the fact that only actions are condemned by the Church. Don't try to paint these ex-Evangelical bigots as misunderstood upholders of Orthodoxy. That's not the case at all. They are just butthurt because fortunately no one else is joining them in their bigotry. Not being a jerk about it doesn't equate no longer believing that homosexual acts are sinful; and believing that homosexual acts are sinful doesn't equate being an ex-Evangelical homophobic jerk.
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Religious Topics / Re: Being gay and Christianity.
« Last post by Mountain on Today at 02:29:12 AM »
Now I feel free to talk about my homosexuality since I admit it few days ago. What I'm going to say now is something very personal, and I hope even those who don't like me, to not take a chance in using this thread to act unkindly.

I came out of the closet to my family ( actually most of my family ) 5 years ago. My family are not Christian, and no, they are not Non-religious. I won't mention my background publicly here but I guess many members know about my background. I grew up in a society where homosexuality is considered a big no no. Where I've been called "sodomite" ( Now you know why I'm hostile to that word, it brings awful memories ). I left the religion of my childhood, because of so many things and one them is the hate that was directed toward me. Went to Christianity, found out Christ. For the first time in my life I was able to call God " my father", it was the first time I find out that God actually capable of loving , that God actually wants me to be with him. Later on however, I left Christianity and became Atheist. I realized that I have no place in any religion. I shut down the idea that I will ever believe in God. It was enough for me to read some verses in the OT about how people like me should be killed, and to close the Bible, put it in the closet and say to myself " Not in a million year". Nevertheless, I continued my search until I came back to Christianity and the rest you know about it by now.

My homosexuality is not somethings easy. I'm married to my partner now, and I'm very happy with him. But the idea that I'm Christian ( I was ), sometimes made me feel strange in some of the gay community, and the fact that I'm gay, made me feel strange in some Christian churches. If I meet with gay people, and the issue of "Christians hate us" kind of thing comes up, I jump and defend Christians and try to clarify that many Christians out there do not hate us.  But enough is enough. Every once in a while there is a story about this bishop and that bishop, this pastor and that pastor calling gays sick, calling for their killing. Patriarchs calling gay marriage "cancer". Patriarch pushing for laws that will make gays live in more misery. News about laws in Africa pushed by Christian MPs and supported by Christian leaders. How is that any different than the religion I grew up in ? It is not different. The same attitude but different faces. The same language but different books. The same preaching but different preachers. Saints calling me all kinds of names in their writings, and I still have to honor them and kiss their icons ?

And you wonder why there are times when I got fed up and decided to leave Christianity because of some Christians. There are times when I ask myself, why bother ? Here I have Atheist/Non-religious people who accept me, who make me feel safe, who don't go around pushing for laws that will criminalize me, who don't call me "sodomite", who don't think that my love to my partner is some kind of twisted disease that we need to be cured of. But one thing they don't have, and that is God. 

 Can you imagine someone telling you that your love to your husband/wife is sickness  ? That your marriage is a big awful sin and that you need to leave your husband/wife if you want to be "saved" ? It is not easy to hear these words and to read them from those who are supposed to be your brothers and sisters. Sadly, God take all the blame, because I can't get angry at the people, I get angry at Him, I blame Him. Many times I said to Him " Didn't you know that the words you allowed to be written in your book will cause me and my people to get persecuted for thousands of years to come ? why did you allow such verses be in your book? verses that justifies many crimes against me ? " What about when you know that a member in this forum would most likely wish your death because of his traditionalist beliefs ? a person that accuse you of wanting to "corrupt" his church.

Now with the Same-Sex marriage in America, this whole feeling is on again. I see some Christians crying about how God's wrath is coming. I wonder where God's wrath is on what is happening to Christians in the Middle East ? Where God's wrath is for the millions of people with no home, no safe water, and thousands of children die everyday in a selfish world driven by greed ? Where God's wrath is when a man hanged to death because of who he loves ? Where God's wrath is when a mother taken away from her children, raped, and now she is a slave ? Where God's wrath is on those who kill people in His name ? They mean to tell me that God's wrath is waking up now ? That God's wrath was sleep the last few months ?


I might not blame or be that harsh on people from different religions, because their tradition is quite different from what Christianity is. You might notice how many non-Christians easy to point out to the faults of some Christians more than pointing out to the faults of others. Probably it is not bigotry, but probably it is because Christianity is the ONLY religion that says "God is love", that Christianity is the ONLY religion where God supposedly became human and died for us, that Christianity is the ONLY religion that says "forgive your enemies...etc" . Maybe that is why the world is very quick to notice what some Christians do, because on some level, the world expects more from Christians who follow a religion quite different from other religions. Maybe on some level, the world looks up to Christians to see if " by their fruit you know them...".

First, it is cool that you expressed yourself openly here. Second, "Christians" who condemn you and hate you because of your sin are not Christians of good example. Your sin (homosexual sex) is not much worse than the sin of those who fornicate with women outside the marriage. Don't feel hopeless. For some reason, known to God, He gave us the laws to which we must obey. God will accept in to Kingdom only those who obeyed to his law and those who repented. Purified their soul. Some things are not to be questioned about God. He gave you a heavy cross, but you have no right, for your own good, to fail carrying that cross. Even 1000 years of earthy suffering is worth to spend only 1 second in Heaven. Imagine what a beauty awaits those who carry their cross to the end and defeat the devil and sin.

The love for your same sex partner is not the sin, but the lust you have for him is sin. People often mix those two words, they mix up love with lust. The love is what caring mother feels for her child. Love is when someone sucrifices their life for someone they care. But to have forbidden sex (same sex, sex outside marriage, etc...) that is not love, that is lustful sin, something that is from this world.

To be Christian, you must leave everything earthly in order to gain everything heavenly. It is up to you to decide. You shall either chose the way of the Gospel, or the way of the sin. You know, if you truly have faith, what awaits those who fail. And that is something you don't want. How terrible is to live in darkness forever with demons, without God and His Light of love for eternity. Those who end up there, they feel so horrible stupid because they didn't use the chance they had while they were on earth to prove themselves as worthy for the life in heaven with God and all His saints.

You must chose, there is no nice way to please your both lustful and spiritual needs.

I urge you to reconsider your life's choices.
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