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Prayer Forum / Re: For the repose of Philip, of my parish
« Last post by Ainnir on Today at 12:35:12 AM »
Memory eternal.
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Liturgy / Re: "Organic" liturgical development
« Last post by MalpanaGiwargis on Today at 12:05:25 AM »
None of the criticisms you’ve posed concerning these reforms meet the threshold of relevance implied by “inorganic” brutal revisionism such as Vatican II.  They are trivialities, or in some cases, arguably not valid criticisms at all (I think dropping Psalms 148-150 from daily recitation was probably an improvement).

Agree to disagree on them being "trivialities"; they are of differing importance. I never said they were as extreme as what happened at Vatican II, but they did set a precedent for the Pope to remake the liturgy. No pope had never done anything like it before – probably no coincidence it had never happened until after Vatican I.

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The Gallican Rite by the way was in no sense illicit, since it predated Trent by 200 years, although it must be remembered that the Tridentine Rite, like the Dominican Rite and the old Cathusian Rite, represents a fusion of Roman and Gallican influence.

When I said "Gallican psalters," I wasn't referring to the historic Gallican Rite - sorry for lack of clarity. I'm referring to post-Tridentine diocesan breviaries; they contravene the orders in Quod a nobis (Pius V's bull promulgating the Tridentine breviary) in that they were created after Trent, most in the 17th century, some up to the eve of Vatican I.

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A book you would probably enjoy greatly given your interest in it is The Genius of the Roman Rite, which is available on iBooks and Kindle.

Thanks, that looks interesting. I've actually stopped reading about the Roman Rite because it does nothing for me anymore but produce headaches.
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(formal argument included)

1. God cannot fail
2. Failure is necessarily constitutive of normativity
3. If (1) and (2), then God isn't normative (or isn't bound by norms, or doesn't have normativity?)
4. If God isn't normative, then God only has dispositional states.
5. If God only has dispositional states, then God doesn't have thoughts, beliefs, or desires.
6. If God doesn't have thoughts, beliefs, or desires, then God doesn't have free will or agency.
7. Therefore, God doesn't have free will or agency.

I cleaned that up for you.
Deny subconclusion 3, premises 4, 5, 6 on the grounds that they have no demonstration. "Fail" in 1-2 is too ambiguous. "Is/isn't normative" is too vague in 2-4. "free will" and "agency" are too vague in 6-7. And I don't think you know what a dispositional state usually means. Free will is often thought to be a sort of dispositional state, e.g. P has free will if P is disposed to sometimes act freely.
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(formal argument included)

1. God cannot fail
2. Failure is necessarily constitutive of normativity
3. If (1) and (2), then God isn't normative (or isn't bound by norms, or doesn't have normativity?)
4. If God isn't normative, then God only has dispositional states.
5. If God only has dispositional states, then God doesn't have thoughts, beliefs, or desires.
6. If God doesn't have thoughts, beliefs, or desires, then God doesn't have free will or agency.
7. Therefore, God doesn't have free will or agency.

I cleaned that up for you.
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Liturgy / Re: "Organic" liturgical development
« Last post by Alpha60 on Yesterday at 11:42:16 PM »
Another very good example would be the reforms Pope Pius X made to the Roman Breviary and to the Missal, which were huge improvements, and not disruptive or opposed to tradition (he also went to great lengths to insist upon Gregorian chant or the traditional music of composers like Palestrina).

The reforms of Pope Pius X were more extensive and disruptive than generally supposed and violate immemorial tradition in a few respects. The Missal was not affected nearly as much as the Breviary, so the laity barely noticed. The changes went beyond rearranging the psalms, though the disruptions are connected with that change.

The changes did not affect the Breviary of the Benedictine Rite, or most of the other liturgical rites.  It simply reorganized the Roman Breviary so that it was less of a chaotic, confusing mess.  I am not aware of any groups who seriously object to the reforms of St. Pius X; St. Pius XII on the other hand tore the living heart out of the Roman Rite by ruining the Paschal Triduum and removing all ancient similiarity between the Triduum and the Byzantine Holy Week services.

That is because all of these groups have no living memory of the pre-Pius X rite. I don't know if I would say I "seriously object" to it, either; however, it is not fair to say it was Pius XII (not canonized) who set the wrecking ball in motion – Pius X's reforms, while perhaps less extensive, did introduce the idea in a striking way that the Pope is the master of the liturgy. It may have only affected the Roman Rite, but it broke certain continuities it had with other Western rites. I am familiar with the details of that reform, having used its rubrics personally for years in the past. Though it did do some helpful things, it introduced several disturbances.

In its favor, it moved several devotional feasts off of Sundays to restore the Sunday Office and prohibited new feasts being fixed to Sundays. It made most of the psalms be recited more often, though it very rarely actually restores the "weekly psalter" it is supposed to have done. Under these rubrics, the weekly psalter is only said 8-9 times a year. The excessive number of suffrages at Lauds and Vespers were reigned in. Transfers became much fewer in number, though it did not fix the imbalance of new saint's feasts being more highly ranked than older ones.

However, the pope introduced several novelties. He introduced the idea of splitting up psalms into the Roman Rite, apparently under the influence of the (technically illicit in many cases) Gallican psalters; this practice is completely foreign to the history of the Roman Rite, which historically only divided Psalm 118. The novel arrangement of the Psalter replaced the arrangement that had obtained in Rome since time immemorial. Most people are aware of that, but don't consider that this required completely recasting the Antiphonarium, as around half of the antiphons of the Roman Sunday and ferial offices were no longer relevant, and were replaced with new compositions. The principle of the Hours and Compline being fixed was destroyed, the connection between feasts and certain psalms was weakened, the daily recitation of Psalm 50 at Lauds on ferias was ended, the daily recitation of Psalms 148-150 was ended (and these were even broken up and never recited together in his reform). This last also affected Holy Week and the Officium Defunctorum (Office for the Dead) – Pius XII didn't make the first changes to Holy Week.

None of the criticisms you’ve posed concerning these reforms meet the threshold of relevance implied by “inorganic” brutal revisionism such as Vatican II.  They are trivialities, or in some cases, arguably not valid criticisms at all (I think dropping Psalms 148-150 from daily recitation was probably an improvement).  In contrast, the improvements made by Pope Pius X were substantial and meaningful, particularly when coupled with his instruction favoring Gregorian chant and traditional music, which marked a point of departure from the decadent masses of various post Baroque composers such as Haydn, whose music is frankly excessive and distracting from prayer (Mozart did a slightly better job with his Missa Brevis, but other masses of his were even worse.   And Bruckner, et al, just wrote massive liturgical annoyances almost as bad as the popular music one might encounter at a Novus Ordo mass today).

The Gallican Rite by the way was in no sense illicit, since it predated Trent by 200 years, although it must be remembered that the Tridentine Rite, like the Dominican Rite and the old Cathusian Rite, represents a fusion of Roman and Gallican influence.  The Old Roman rite is completely dead, and the closest things to the old Gallican Rite can be found in the Mozarabic missal and the Ambrosian divine office.  The old Roman Rite was radically simple; the Roman church was the most conservative member of the Pentarchy, and there is some reason to believe, from the remarks of St. Ambrose, that it used only monotone chanting in the fourth century (low masses were chanted in monotone until the 10th IIRC).

A book you would probably enjoy greatly given your interest in it is The Genius of the Roman Rite, which is available on iBooks and Kindle.
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Other Topics / Re: Random Postings
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:19:14 PM »
Thanks to the Gulf Stream, you can actually grow Cabbage Palms in Ireland https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/palm-trees-in-ireland-36548780/
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Prayer Forum / Re: For the repose of Philip, of my parish
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:12:08 PM »
Lord have mercy
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Prayer Forum / Re: For the repose of Philip, of my parish
« Last post by HaydenTE on Yesterday at 11:11:11 PM »
Memory Eternal!
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Other Topics / Re: Random Postings
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:02:41 PM »
:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

You're welcome.

Why stop at the mouth?

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Other Topics / Re: Random Postings
« Last post by Volnutt on Yesterday at 11:01:09 PM »
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