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Moderated Forums => Faith Issues => Topic started by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 01:00:58 AM

Title: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 01:00:58 AM
I ran across this at OrthodoxWiki:
Cassock - a long sleeved garment worn beneath vestments and/or over street clothes by men, both clergy and laity. The two most common styles are Roman/Latin with buttons up the front, and the Sarum or English which is double breasted.  
The wearing of cassocks by lay men . . . is that required by certain jurisdictions ???
I was just wondering because I never heard that before.
PB


Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Starlight on October 14, 2006, 02:39:55 AM
I am actually kind of extending the question instead of answering, sorry. I assume that some readers, subdeacons and altar servers often wear cassoks, but this is a practice, not a mandatory rule. Is that the case?
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 03:11:14 AM
I am actually kind of extending the question instead of answering, sorry. I assume that some readers, subdeacons and altar servers often wear cassoks, but this is a practice, not a mandatory rule. Is that the case?
I was more interested as to whether any Orthodox jurisdictions anywhere have the practice of lay men wearing or having to wear cassocks over their street clothes. 
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: FrChris on October 14, 2006, 07:26:22 AM
PB-

I have never heard of cassocks/anderi being worn by lay people in the nave or narthex area, but often (at least in the GOA) lay people who are serving at the altar in some capacity will 'borrow' an anderi. The lay people will have some sort of blessing to function at the altar---just so the detractors know we don't allow just anyone to wander into the Holy Place and do things---and before I was ordained I would do just that when I helped out near the altar.

Starlight--

Again, my answer is specific to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the United States, but I cannot imagine a reader, subdeacon, or acolyte serving in the altar area in their street clothes. I am virtually certain that wearing an anderi or acolyte's robes is a requirement, not 'generally accepted practice' in the GOA. Other jurisdictions may have a different answer, though.
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 08:43:30 AM
OK, I think I got it figured out now.  When I first read:
Cassock - a long sleeved garment worn beneath vestments and/or over street clothes by men, both clergy and laity., it was 1:00 am.  I took it to mean they had to wear the cassock over their street clothes when outside of the church. Duuhhh!!! ??? :o ???  I guess I'll have to stay off the forum when I'm sleepy. ;D
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: arimethea on October 14, 2006, 10:32:32 AM
What I think may also be the problem here is you are thinking in 21st Century terms rather then 17th Century terms. The Cassock or Anderi was the undergarment worn by all men in the Mediterian and Middle East regions up until the 19th Century. It was nothing more that what we would consider a t-shirt and boxer short so it would be very rude to walk around just wearing your Anderi. What is worn over the Anderi is what would signify ones status in society.
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: ozgeorge on October 14, 2006, 10:59:58 AM
It was nothing more that what we would consider a t-shirt and boxer short so it would be very rude to walk around just wearing your Anderi.
Now there's a mental picture I could have done without.
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 11:43:11 AM
Now there's a mental picture I could have done without.
Me too!!! ;D
But I did once know a Catholic priest who would go dancing with us at a country dance hall, and one of his parishioners told me that he would wear only cut off jeans and a Mickey Mouse tee shirt under his vestments.  That is, until he got caught by one of the nuns who just happened to have a wooden ruler nearby.  OUCH!!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Anastasios on October 14, 2006, 12:34:27 PM
There's a cool book published in small quantities called "The Blessed Rasso" which details the history of priestly non-liturgical dress.

Anastasios
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: FrChris on October 14, 2006, 01:08:47 PM
There's a cool book published in small quantities called "The Blessed Rasso" which details the history of priestly non-liturgical dress.

Anastasios

Yes! That is the book I was thinking of when I wrote my response earlier!

I came across it one rainy afternoon while I was working at the Holy Cross library. At a low point in my life that book was a great read!
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 03:50:15 PM
There's a cool book published in small quantities called "The Blessed Rasso" which details the history of priestly non-liturgical dress.

Anastasios
Thanks.  I'll have to find a copy.
PB
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: dantxny on October 14, 2006, 05:55:54 PM
Is that the actual name?  I did a search and turned up no results.
Daniel
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 14, 2006, 06:41:11 PM
Is that the actual name?  I did a search and turned up no results.
Daniel
Me too. I did Google & Barnes & Noble.
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Starlight on October 14, 2006, 06:51:14 PM
PB-

I have never heard of cassocks/anderi being worn by lay people in the nave or narthex area, but often (at least in the GOA) lay people who are serving at the altar in some capacity will 'borrow' an anderi. The lay people will have some sort of blessing to function at the altar---just so the detractors know we don't allow just anyone to wander into the Holy Place and do things---and before I was ordained I would do just that when I helped out near the altar.

Starlight--

Again, my answer is specific to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the United States, but I cannot imagine a reader, subdeacon, or acolyte serving in the altar area in their street clothes. I am virtually certain that wearing an anderi or acolyte's robes is a requirement, not 'generally accepted practice' in the GOA. Other jurisdictions may have a different answer, though.
Thank you, Fr. Chris!
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Aristibule on October 22, 2006, 05:46:54 PM
I ran across this at OrthodoxWiki:
Cassock - a long sleeved garment worn beneath vestments and/or over street clothes by men, both clergy and laity. The two most common styles are Roman/Latin with buttons up the front, and the Sarum or English which is double breasted.  
The wearing of cassocks by lay men . . . is that required by certain jurisdictions ???
I was just wondering because I never heard that before.
PB




Psalti Boy, that is from the section on Western Rite Orthodox vestments. Cassocks are often worn by layfolk who are altar servers or choristers inside the chancel/altar - not as an item of everyday dress for the laity. The confusion might stem from the fact that Byzantine rite tends to only give the cassock for tonsuring - in Western rite, the surplice is the garment of the tonsure.
Title: Re: Cassocks
Post by: Psalti Boy on October 22, 2006, 10:38:30 PM
Psalti Boy, that is from the section on Western Rite Orthodox vestments. Cassocks are often worn by layfolk who are altar servers or choristers inside the chancel/altar - not as an item of everyday dress for the laity. The confusion might stem from the fact that Byzantine rite tends to only give the cassock for tonsuring - in Western rite, the surplice is the garment of the tonsure.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.
PB