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Moderated Forums => Faith Issues => Topic started by: emmanuelmelo on September 27, 2005, 09:42:05 PM

Title: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: emmanuelmelo on September 27, 2005, 09:42:05 PM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Sir Sundae on September 27, 2005, 09:49:53 PM
Maybe... This discussion is somewhat different from the alcohol discussion in that with alcohol you have a choice as to how far you want to go. To the point of being drunk...or just a glass of wine at dinner? It would seem that the purpose of marijuana is to attain a high. A question we might ask then is if the high experienced by the marijuana user is in any way parallel to the drunkeness of the alcohol user. I guess the answer to that depends on who ask...

chuck
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Sir Sundae on September 27, 2005, 09:55:30 PM
btw, should this thread be in the Board News forum?  :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Friarmoo32 on September 27, 2005, 10:20:17 PM
Well I would say yes it would be a sin because it endangers others.  Regardless of what people say, you don't always have control over your actions especially when drunk or high.  I think the only acceptable excuse would be for medical reasons, but I think the marijuana used for medical reasons arent supposed to be used to excess of getting disorientented.  I've known of people who smoked pot, drove and then crashed into someone's home....I can't see it not being a sin when you endanger other people through fully knowledgable actions.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on September 27, 2005, 10:27:14 PM
I have no thoughts as to the moral obligations a Christian has regarding not using weed. However, it is against the law in America, and certainly Scripture and the Fathers emphasise that we are to obey the laws of the land that we find ourselves as far as possible (ie. unless following the law would force us to do something unChristian). Maybe it is (or maybe it isn't) fair that something like pot is illegal while other drugs like alcohol and tobacco are legal. However, as far as I've read, there isn't a principle in Christian theology that permits you to break a law which you think is unfair just because you want to have a pleasurable experience. Medicinal use is a different case, though my conclusion would probably still be the same. I wouldn't judge someone for smoking pot, or tell them they're going to hell, but I wouldn't stick around and hang out either.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Anastasios on September 27, 2005, 10:28:06 PM
ISTM that in America it would be a sin in that it is illegal and we are to be obedient to our lawful authority.  In countries where marijuana is legal, I'd say it's questionable if it is a sin; on the one hand, excessive mood alterations are sinful, on the other hand, caffeine, nicotine, and moderate alchohol buzzes (NOT drunkenness though) are not considered sinful; hence, I think it depends on what exactly happens when one smokes marijuana.  Given that I have never had that experience I wouldn't know :)

Anastasios

PS Board news is only for board news, not for questions about faith.  I am going to move it to the proper folder.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Silouan on September 28, 2005, 07:52:00 PM
Perhaps the black and white language of sin isn't the best way to look at this.

Could you concentrate on the Jesus Prayer while stoned?  Would you want to have a joint in your hand at the moment of the second coming? 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: suzannes on September 28, 2005, 09:27:31 PM
If you did one hit at a party, something you only do like, maybe once a year, would that be something you would need to confess?  (The answer may seem self-evident, but you're not really going to get stoned and in a state of impairment that might lead to sin, and it certainly isn't habitual use, so this seems like kind of a grey area.)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Anastasios on September 28, 2005, 09:54:46 PM
Perhaps the black and white language of sin isn't the best way to look at this.

Could you concentrate on the Jesus Prayer while stoned?ÂÂ  Would you want to have a joint in your hand at the moment of the second coming?ÂÂ  

I don't think this is the only way to look at it.ÂÂ  You could spin this a lot of ways: would you want to be eating a hamburger at the moment of the second coming? Watching tv? I wouldn't. Neither of these things is intrinsically sinful but the fact is there are better things we could be doing.

Anastasios
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Anastasios on September 28, 2005, 10:21:17 PM
Note: in my above posts I am *not* encouraging the smoking of marijuana. :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Silouan on September 28, 2005, 10:42:39 PM
But eating a hamburger is quite natural - assuming it isn't a fast day!  And watching TV in moderation (and quality programming) isn't entirely so bad either as everyone needs some relaxation - even monastics.  But when done properly a little relaxtion, literature, music, good food etc. facilitates the spiritual life.  I don't know if the same could be said for Marijuana.  It may not be sinful, but I don't think it is helpful. ÂÂ

But let's both ask our Gerondes, Anastasie, for a blessing to go smoke a joint and see what happens  :P
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: suzannes on September 28, 2005, 10:48:10 PM
I should clarify that I don't think it's a "good" thing.  I'm just kind of wondering where it falls in the scale of "badness."  I've certainly known people who have become very dependant on the substance, and at that point, I think it falls into the realm of sinfullness, of course.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Silouan on September 28, 2005, 10:49:13 PM
Quote
Note: in my above posts I am *not* encouraging the smoking of marijuana.


Yeah we believe you.... so does the GOC celebrate 4/20 on the old or new calendar?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Anastasios on September 28, 2005, 11:07:59 PM
Uh, I believe 4:20 refers to the time of day, not the date on the calendar :)

And btw, I don't think my Geronda would approve :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Girl on September 28, 2005, 11:41:59 PM
Your body is to be treated as a temple........ and if you are abusing it that is a sin (in my eyes), just like gluttony.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Tallitot on September 29, 2005, 01:56:20 AM
In a country where marijuana is illegal, buying it contributes to illegal activity of all sorts. Some drug money even goes into the coffers of terrorists. Considering that the trade in illegal drugs contributes to violent crime I would say it is sinful.

Our bodies are a temple...not an amusement park ;)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: erracht on September 29, 2005, 03:26:37 PM
St. Paul specifically list drunkards among those who "will not inherit the kingdom of God". If smoking pot is done in such a way as to compare to this, I imagine this is a grave sin. I will not comment in depth on use of pot in general, however I will say that it has been common sense to me not to even try it, or tobacco, for that matter. Marijuana sometimes causes schizophrenia and can be a gateway to other drugs. It also contains some of the substances found in drugs and as a mind-altering substance, it may cause you to - generally put - lose control, even if you are not "addicted". So I will just say that it is my opinion that it is not something people should indulge in and I can see how it can be a sin, though I will not say that it automatically is one as I don´t know for sure. But there is strong suggestion that it - and smoking tobacco - are.

The argument that buying illegal drugs supports other crime and even terrorism is also a good one.

I would like to make a digression, however. Who here believes that Orthodox have a duty to obey ANY and EVERY non-sinful law? St. Paul did say "to be subject to the governing authorities" but he also said that the law is not a cause of fear to those who obey the law of God. It seems to suggest here that the purpose of the earthly authorities is to enforce the law of God, I.E. to incarcerate criminals etc. St. Paul seems to be viewing the "rulers" as an instrument of this when he says they are not a cause of fear to those who obey God. Because if they introduce arbitrary rules or very strict rules prohibiting people to exercise their freedom, they DO give people cause for "fear" - I.E. they punish things that people want to do for personal pursuit of happiness. Here are some laws that have been enacted at times which seem to have nothing to do with Christian morality:

-in the middle ages, there were laws in England and France restricting what colors and furs one could wear, depending on class¨.

-similarly, only the king could use an eagle when hawking and one English law said that "no meane person may keep greihounds but freemen (non-serfs?) may..."

-as late as the 1840s, there was a law in Bavaria against civillians wearing mustaches

-there is a state in the USA which may still have a law on the books that says everyone must take a bath once a day or something like that. Many jurisdictions have such laws still hanging around (probably not enforced, some would probably be considered unconstitutional) and one legislature actually spent a session cleaning them out of the statutes.

Though I do not say this on any authority, I will say that from what I understand, my spiritual fathers have guided me not to worry about minor things, that the duty to obey laws is not absolute (but probably subject to common sense and some practical issues). At least that is a rough understanding of their advice, I don´t give this as advice, just as food for thought. Certainly one must do things like in general drive carefully, pay reasonable taxes, not steal or murder, park cars where they are supposed to be, respect others´ property rights and such logical laws, but accept any restriction on one´s personal freedom (even to the point of not keeping greyhounds so as to satisfy the upper classes)? It seems a bit extreme, as if to say that one has a duty to submit to, ultimately dictatorial rules, so long as they don´t make one sin.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: arjuna3110 on September 29, 2005, 09:57:33 PM
No, I don't think using marijuana is a sin.ÂÂ  I think of it as morally similar to strong alcohol.ÂÂ  It can be used morally -- for recreation as well as for medical purposes.ÂÂ  

However, using marijuana can be sinful if it is misused.ÂÂ  Like abusing alcohol, abusing marijuana is sinful if a person becomes "drunk" on it or addicted to it (psychologically or phsycially) or if a person endangers oneself or another while under the influence of it.

Of course, sadly, marijuana is illegal in the U.S.ÂÂ  So for that reason only, I don't encourage it to be used.ÂÂ  Instead, I encourage its use to be legalized and taxed or, at minimum, to be treated as a minor crime which warrants treatment rather than prison.

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mexican on September 29, 2005, 11:09:14 PM
can someone chek this thread? It's about the Ethioopian Church and marihuana use.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7227.0
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: cizinec on September 30, 2005, 07:02:32 AM
I don't buy any of the "smoking weed is okay" apologists.  I can have a shot of slivovice, which I do on a rare occasion, and not get a buzz at all.  Taking a hit on a joint at a party ONCE A YEAR will cause you to get a much greater effect (unless you've been working up a tolerance - oh wait, it's just once a year). 

That's not the only problem.

1.  Why are you going to a party where there is known illegal activity that, if discovered by the authorities, could land your butt in the can?

2.  Why are you engaging in an activity that will be tested the next time you have to get a job and will likely keep you from being able to be a productive member of society?  Oh wait, you're only dong it once a year.  Just lie when they ask you the question about using dope after it's worked its way out of your system.  After all, that's not a REAL lie.

3.  Why are you engaging in an acitivity that, if seen by others, would bring scandal and shame on your family, faith and church?

4.  Will you share your annual pot smoking fun with your kids (when they get to be the appropriate age, of course)?

Answers:

1.  After you take a hit, you don't give a crap about that or anything else.  What fun.

2.  After you take a hit, who gives a crap about work anyway?

3.  After you take a hit . . . . you get the idea.

What a wonderful way to witness for Christ and His Church!

Go sell that bull to somebody who doesn't know better.  It's a sin and if you stop laboring to convince yourselves otherwise you'd agree.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on September 30, 2005, 11:42:56 AM
Quote
But eating a hamburger is quite natural - assuming it isn't a fast day!  And watching TV in moderation (and quality programming) isn't entirely so bad either as everyone needs some relaxation - even monastics.  But when done properly a little relaxtion, literature, music, good food etc. facilitates the spiritual life.  I don't know if the same could be said for Marijuana.

Even if you don't think smoking marijuana is natural (which I do think it is; mankind has been smoking various plants ever since he first threw some hemp, poppies, or tobacco on a campfire and noticed the smoke both smelled good and made him feel different), you can hardly argue that eating it isn't natural, and it's perfectly possible to get stoned by that method. There's even a traditional drink in the far reaches of northern India and Nepal called bhang, which is a sweet drink made with butter, milk, and marijuana. You can't get much more natural than that.

Quote
Marijuana sometimes causes schizophrenia and can be a gateway to other drugs.

Marijuana by itself does not cause schizophrenia. At most, it can make manifest symptoms in someone who is already afflicted with that disease. And marijuana by itself has no power to compel a user to use other drugs; rather, its status as a "gateway" drug is due to the fact that those selling marijuana are often selling other drugs as well. If marijuana was bought in liquor stores or at coffeehouses, this effect would not exist.

Quote
The argument that buying illegal drugs supports other crime and even terrorism is also a good one.

Much marijuana is grown at home, and sold by small-time dealers. Unlike drugs like cocaine and heroin, it requires no processing other than picking off the buds and drying them. If marijuana were legalized, I can see most of it being grown at home, as it is ridiculously easy to do so. It's not called "weed" for nothing.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: arjuna3110 on September 30, 2005, 12:31:26 PM

1.ÂÂ  After you take a hit, you don't give a crap about that or anything else.ÂÂ  What fun.

2.ÂÂ  After you take a hit, who gives a crap about work anyway?

3.ÂÂ  After you take a hit . . . . you get the idea.

What a wonderful way to witness for Christ and His Church!



According to that logic, alcohol should also be banned . . . and tv . . . and the internet.    ;)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: suzannes on September 30, 2005, 06:30:09 PM
Cizinec,

Since you don't know me, let me clear up a few things: I have NEVER in my life bought or owned marijuana.  The last time I had some was New Years Eve, 1999.  I asked if that was a sin, because what am I going to do, ask a priest that question??  Do you want me to pee in a cup for you??  How can you accuse me of a sin I haven't even committed?  I went to that party before I came to the church.

I love the Church and Orthodoxy, but you encounter so many judgemental, angry, and yes, hateful people on Orthodox boards.  I'm outta here.  I'm sorry you think you can judge someone from one stupid post.  I thought you could ask a somewhat awkward question without being attacked.    I don't even like marijuana, I don't use it, I don't buy it, smoke it, or GROW it, ok? Are we clear now??
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: cizinec on September 30, 2005, 11:23:51 PM
Quote
You can't get much more natural than that.

No one argued whether or not it was natural.  The question was whether or not it's a sin.

Quote
According to that logic, alcohol should also be banned . . . and tv . . . and the internet.

Such a statement is so silly that I'm assuming you were only joking, somewhat like my own silly answers to some serious questions.  Alcoholic beverages, television and the internet can all be used without raising the questions I raised above. 

Suzannes,

Don't take it personally.  Anything I wrote was a response to a mixture of what a lot of folks were saying.  I hope I didn't run you off.  However, I WOULD suggest that you discuss it with your spiritual father.  That's what they are there for.  We're all just a bunch of e-hacks with the unfortunate inability to properly express mood and emotion.

BTW, if you think I'm throwing stones at you I'm not.  I'm a great sinner myself.  A hypothetical question was asked and I thought it was pretty removed from anyone's emotional screen.  If I've offended you, I aopologize.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on September 30, 2005, 11:47:04 PM
Quote
No one argued whether or not it was natural.  The question was whether or not it's a sin.

I was responding specifically to an assertion that marijuana differed from eating a hamburger in that the latter was natural and the former was not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on September 30, 2005, 11:54:11 PM
And for your other points...

Quote
1.  Why are you going to a party where there is known illegal activity that, if discovered by the authorities, could land your butt in the can?

This objection has nothing to do with marijuana itself, but is predicated on marijuana being illegal. If one lives in Amsterdam, for example, this point is moot.

Quote
2.  Why are you engaging in an activity that will be tested the next time you have to get a job and will likely keep you from being able to be a productive member of society?  Oh wait, you're only dong it once a year.  Just lie when they ask you the question about using dope after it's worked its way out of your system.  After all, that's not a REAL lie.

Again, this objection is only based on the societal stigma attached to marijuana use, not marijuana itself. And FWIW, I have never heard of an employer asking about past drug use; all they care about is current use, hence the drug test.

Quote
3.  Why are you engaging in an acitivity that, if seen by others, would bring scandal and shame on your family, faith and church?

Yet again, this has nothing to do with marijuana itself, and everything to do with how people react to it.

Quote
4.  Will you share your annual pot smoking fun with your kids (when they get to be the appropriate age, of course)?

I neither smoke marijuana nor intend to have children, but if I did both, I would have no problem consuming it with them when they reach the appropriate age.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Silouan on October 01, 2005, 04:38:44 AM
re: Marijuana being natural. 

Antiquity does not equate something being natural.  Cain slew Abel long before recorded history - surely that doesn't mean murder is natural.

Whether Marijuani is sinful or not - I don't know.  I have never tried it nor do I have any desire to.  I've been around enough stoned people to realize that is a state I never want to consciously put myself in.  I've seen some pretty good people seriously mess up their lives.  Of course most potheads end up growing up eventually and becoming productive members of society.  Frankly though I find it quite disturbing that you would comsume Marijuna with children.  I can understand not making an issue of it or turning a blind eye to kids smoking pot - but encouraging?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: arjuna3110 on October 01, 2005, 08:53:52 AM
Such a statement is so silly that I'm assuming you were only joking, somewhat like my own silly answers to some serious questions.ÂÂ  Alcoholic beverages, television and the internet can all be used without raising the questions I raised above.ÂÂ  

I meant it partially in jest and partially seriously.

Abuse of alcohol can have terrible effects on a person and all the people whom are affected by an alcoholic.  That is so obvious I don't think I need to elaborate. 

As for tv and the internet . . .   Clearly, those things are not physically drugs.   Those things are machines.  Yet, they can be used like drugs.  There are millions and millions of people who spend HOURS --every day-- sitting in front of a box and staring at it.  They plan their lives around it.  They even decide when to go to the bathroom by it: a box.   Now, if I put a plain old cardboard box in the center of a family's living room and asked them to stare at it for hours upon hours, they would think I am insane.  But, if that box is a tv or a computer monitor, people happily spend huge amounts of their precious time just sitting there, watching a box.  TV and the internet are not drugs, but people often use them as drugs.

I'm not advocating that everyone go out right now and smoke some marijuana.  It is illegal. 

But, it’s also just a plant.  And like many plants, it can be used for good or for ill. 

We in America are missing the real issue:  the use of drugs overall.  We are often conditioned to say that all drugs are bad.  Yet, we fail to see that we routinely use certain drugs:  alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, sugar, and so on, plus the drug-like devices of  tv and the internet.  If we as a nation would practice a modicum of fasting, prayer and moderate asceticism, we would see right through this.  Some things can be used responsibly to improve our mood and relax our mind -- we already do that.  Yet, once we label something to be a “drug” we think it is per se evil.  Simultaneously, we think that if something is NOT labeled a drug, it’s ok to use without much restraint -- such as alcohol, tobacco, sugar, etc. 

I suppose what I am arguing is this:  moderation.  First, we should recognize that any chemical --legal or illegal--  that changes the mood or the mind is a drug.  We should also recognize that some devices, like tv and the internet, can be used (and abused) like drugs.  Then, we should have a realistic set of criteria for saying what makes a drug good or bad.  The current “scheduling” of drugs in America is a good start, but I don’t think it is perfect and I think it also has much to do with politics.   (And, in my opinion, I think marijuana is about as dangerous --or beneficial-- as alcohol, and it should be treated like alcohol: legalized, taxed, with strong penalties for people who endanger themselves or others while under the influence of it.)  Then, we should live and practice a lifestyle of moderation in all such things. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PerogiPincher on October 01, 2005, 01:48:49 PM
Arjuna,

While I agree with your argument regarding moderation, I would have to think twice about the legalization of marijuana.

Making it legal would possess some people with an addictive nature to take smoking all too lightly, smoking it like cigarettes.  What about the second-hand smoke?  Innocent bystanders including their children and babies would be affected and stoned outta their minds.  What about a mechanic who goes out to lunch and smokes a couple (well its legal, they rationalize) comes back and works on the family car.  Later the family comes to pick it up and because of some mechanical failure, due to a stoned repair man, the family dies in a car accident?

IMHO i think that marijuana affects more people then just the partaker.

It is illegal for a reason, after all.


In peace

Deb


PS. I'm addicted to the Weather Channel and now more recently to this forum! Heaven help me.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on October 01, 2005, 10:52:15 PM
Quote
Making it legal would possess some people with an addictive nature to take smoking all too lightly, smoking it like cigarettes.  What about the second-hand smoke?  Innocent bystanders including their children and babies would be affected and stoned outta their minds. 

Two points -- secondhand marijuana smoke isn't going to cause innocent bystanders to suddenly keel over stoned out of their gourds, and as I've pointed out before, there are other ways to consume marijuana! THC will dissolve in any lipid or alcohol-based substance such as butter, milk, or vodka.
Quote
What about a mechanic who goes out to lunch and smokes a couple (well its legal, they rationalize) comes back and works on the family car.  Later the family comes to pick it up and because of some mechanical failure, due to a stoned repair man, the family dies in a car accident?

This objection also applies to alcohol. If this is a sufficient reason to outlaw marijuana, it is also a sufficient reason to outlaw alcohol.

Quote
It is illegal for a reason, after all.

Yes -- it's called inertia. It's illegal, and so people assume that because it's illegal, it must be illegal for a good reason.

Quote
Frankly though I find it quite disturbing that you would comsume Marijuna with children.

I wouldn't consume marijuana with children. I *would* consume marijuana with my offspring once they were of a sufficient age to partake of it responsibly (provided I had offspring and I used marijuana), the same as I would with alcohol.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mo the Ethio on October 01, 2005, 11:38:48 PM
My two cents worth here:
 As a former CHRONIC weed smoker, I just want to say two things here.
If herb is not addictive , why do weedheads always have to have it ? I`ve known people (perhaps myself included) who are along the lines of crackheads when it came to getting high.
 Secondly, despite the popular view that the marijuana trade is harmless, people have been and will continue to be killed over(weed) deals gone bad(yes, it really happens) just like in other "hard drug" transactions. Come on , let`s face it. In the end it`s all about the money and potheads who delude themselves into thinking it`s all good , groovy,and grand are just playing into the hands of major drug kingpins.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on October 02, 2005, 01:19:22 AM
Quote
If herb is not addictive , why do weedheads always have to have it ? I`ve known people (perhaps myself included) who are along the lines of crackheads when it came to getting high.

All medical evidence shows that marijuana is, at best, very mildly physically addictive. Certainly it's nowhere near alcohol or tobacco in addictiveness. For every person like yourself who had a difficult time stopping its use, there are many former potheads like me who had no trouble ditching it.

Quote
Secondly, despite the popular view that the marijuana trade is harmless, people have been and will continue to be killed over(weed) deals gone bad(yes, it really happens) just like in other "hard drug" transactions. Come on , let`s face it. In the end it`s all about the money and potheads who delude themselves into thinking it`s all good , groovy,and grand are just playing into the hands of major drug kingpins.

If marijuana were legalized and regulated this problem would disappear overnight. Consider the thriving American black market for alcohol.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Girl on October 02, 2005, 08:31:08 PM
All medical evidence shows that marijuana is, at best, very mildly physically addictive. Certainly it's nowhere near alcohol or tobacco in addictiveness. For every person like yourself who had a difficult time stopping its use, there are many former potheads like me who had no trouble ditching it.

Just how alcohol is more prone to become addictive to certain people because of their family ethnic roots and backgrounds, so is tobacco and many other drugs.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on October 02, 2005, 11:46:37 PM
Quote
Just how alcohol is more prone to become addictive to certain people because of their family ethnic roots and backgrounds, so is tobacco and many other drugs.

Yep. Doesn't mean they should be illegal.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Girl on October 03, 2005, 12:03:51 AM
I was just saying that it is not going to be as easy for some people to quit smoking pot as it was for you. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Augustine on October 03, 2005, 08:32:52 AM
Of itself, marijuanna is not a dangerous/harmful substance, no more than hard liquor.  Of course there are different preparations of it - one can smoke it or eat it in it's natural, dried "herb" form, or collect the trichomes in the form of hashish or resin, etc. which is considerably stronger (since it is not being diluted by non-psychoactive vegetable matter.)  This means that the whole notion that the use of cannabis is undifferentiated ("one toke will get you flat out stoned") is on it's face, ridiculous.  This is particularly obvious when you consider the more refined smoking practices common in Europe (where it is quite normal for weed to be cut with pipe tobbacco or other flavoured, non-psychoactive herbs.)

It is not physically addictive, and whatever mental problems (shortened attention span, etc.) heavy use may cause, most of this will go away with the cessation of use (IOW. remnants have worked their way out of your system.)  In fact when compared point for point, there is no doubt that alcoholic beverages constitute far more of a social and medical-health menace.

There is a quickly vanishing culture of moderate pleasures, the consequence both of a growing hedonism, and oddly enough, the downside of long standing puritanical attitudes toward natural goods (and such puritanism should never be confused with virtue - it is to virtue what scrupelousness is to genuine humility.)

Another problem is that the only people you will generally hear speak openly about cannabis use, are either those who have no clue what they are talking about (often they're just parrotting what they heard from the "just say no" crowd; saying they've played  fast-and-loose with the facts on this subject would be an understatement), or conversly are folks who because of their own lack of self discipline and capacity for moderation, developed a problem with the substance in question - this is much like trying to form an opinion about responsible alcohol consumption by canvassing the views/experience of tea-tottlers and alcoholics.

In the U.S. at least, cannabis prohibition was a twin of alcohol prohibition - both arose in the same period, and were in large part supported by the same joyless people.  The real difference between the two, is that the prohibition of one came to an end, largely because it was the "high of choice" of more Americans.

Here in Canada, cannabis use and cultivation is all over the legal map - private usage is in a grey area which, at worst, will get you fined; though if you have a medical exemption, you can grow up to 40 plants (or more) with full approval of the government.  And while technically the distribution of live seed is illegal, there are shops that have been doing this out in the open for years now, with the government collecting tax revenue from them (with the full knowledge that these are cannabis seed shops) - to the point that the government was sending medical-marijuanna patients to these shops.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Robert on October 03, 2005, 08:58:19 AM
Augustine,

Would you then say you condone the use of marijuanna?

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mo the Ethio on October 03, 2005, 09:48:54 AM

If marijuana were legalized and regulated this problem would disappear overnight. Consider the thriving American black market for alcohol.

 I used to buy into this bit of propaganda too. Fortunately,this will never happen in our lifetime.
Why? Again, it goes back to the money involved here. We are talking about a multi-billion dollar
industry.Do you think for a second that the people who run this illicit trade are going to let go of that kind of cash? There are people at ALL levels of society that benefit monetarily from the import of cannabis. If it were legalized, these folks would get cut out of the action and that my friend is not going to happen.
 Also, as a parent , I am not comfortable with the idea of legalization. Remember when we were kids and how easy it was to get/ smoke cigarettes? I can just see a generation of kids being able to get/smoke a "legal" joint. Or should I not worry about that because it will be "regulated" ::).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on October 03, 2005, 11:19:54 AM
Quote
I used to buy into this bit of propaganda too. Fortunately,this will never happen in our lifetime.
Why? Again, it goes back to the money involved here. We are talking about a multi-billion dollar
industry.Do you think for a second that the people who run this illicit trade are going to let go of that kind of cash? There are people at ALL levels of society that benefit monetarily from the import of cannabis. If it were legalized, these folks would get cut out of the action and that my friend is not going to happen.

Running alcohol was an equally lucrative business for its time, but prohibition still ended. Besides which, your argument here seems to be "vested interests will never allow marijuana to be legalized, therefore marijuana should not be legalized."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mo the Ethio on October 03, 2005, 07:00:26 PM
As a parent, I do not believe that marijuana should be legalized.

 If vested interests never allow it to happen,that`s fine by me.
 
But for the sake of argument,let`s say it is legalized. Do you have kids? If it`s legalized , are you cool with them having easier access to it? Do you stop testing people like airline pilots ,bus drivers,etc..for cannabis because it`s now legal? I don`t think most folks who are in favor of legalization stop and think about all the implications involved. Maybe cause they`re too high to think it through rationally. :-*

 

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: arjuna3110 on October 03, 2005, 10:24:41 PM
 
As a parent, I do not believe that marijuana should be legalized.

 If vested interests never allow it to happen,that`s fine by me.
 
But for the sake of argument,let`s say it is legalized. Do you have kids?


No, I don't have kids.



Quote
If it`s legalized , are you cool with them having easier access to it?

Honestly, I don't think they would have much more easier access than kids (and others) have right now.ÂÂ  Marijuana is widely available, even though it is illegal.ÂÂ  

Hence, in my opinion, the issue is everybody behaving with more moderation and temperance.ÂÂ  That, in turn, requires a core set of values which are based upon something more important and more compelling than our own selfish interests and pleasures. And that, in turn (in my opinion) is best provided by religion and religious people living in community with each other -- so as to reinforce their values and community.ÂÂ  In short, I think the issue is not whether we make a plant illegal but whether we all develop self-control, i.e. dispassion, so that any drugs (legal or illegal) will not seem compelling or attractive.



Quote
Do you stop testing people like airline pilots ,bus drivers,etc..for cannabis because it`s now legal?

No.ÂÂ  People who are in positions which affect the safety of others should be required to be sober.ÂÂ  In other words, they should not be under the influence of any performance-reducing drug:ÂÂ  marijuana, alcohol, cold remedies, etc.ÂÂ  If marijuana were legalized, the testing for performance-reducing drugs would still need to be continued.ÂÂ  

However, if marijuana were legalized, we might not be putting people in prison --at public expense-- for possession of a plant.

Legalizing marijuana isn't going to solve the problem of drug abuse.ÂÂ  In a nation which celebrates consuming alcohol and otherwise indulging the passions, only dispassion is the cure.ÂÂ  And the only doctor who can administer the cure of true dispassion is Jesus Christ.

However, I think legalizing marijuana would take a lot of the profits out of the marijuana trade and make it less appealing to organized crime.  I also think it would be much more beneficial to society if we sent abusers to treatment in addition to or rather than prison.  ÃƒÆ’‚ And, it would be better to tax the stuff (like we do alcohol and tobacco) than to continue to be taxed by its underground economy and the crime which it fuels.

Overall, I think legalizing marijuana would be similar to what we currently have with the laws about alcohol:ÂÂ  People of a certain age would be allowed to use it;ÂÂ  but they would not be allowed to drive, etc. while under the influence; and people who are caught while under the influence would get treatment along with or instead of punishment.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mo the Ethio on October 03, 2005, 11:36:38 PM






Honestly, I don't think they would have much more easier access than kids (and others) have right now.  ÃƒÆ’‚  




 




You`re living in la la land my friend





 





   

However, if marijuana were legalized, we might not be putting people in prison --at public expense-- for possession of a plant.




A Coca and poppies are plants too. Should they also be legalized on that basis?
B You are confusing decriminalization with legalization
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: yBeayf on October 04, 2005, 01:17:07 AM
Quote
Do you have kids?

Nope, and I don't intend to.

Quote
If it`s legalized , are you cool with them having easier access to it?

As Arjuna said, it's hard to imagine them having easier access to it (9th grade -- *everyone* knew who could hook you up, and a friend of mine openly peddled joints at lunch. He got busted, but it was his own fault -- he was called in to the principal's office on an unrelated charge, and believing he had been ratted out, tossed the box of joints on the principal's desk with a sigh), but yes, I am.

Quote
Do you stop testing people like airline pilots ,bus drivers,etc..for cannabis because it`s now legal?

Depends on the company. If they want to test, that's their business. I think, though, that in most cases a reasonable approach to take would be only to test for intoxication if the employee has been involved in some sort of accident. If the employee is impaired, it doensn't matter if it's because of alcohol or marijuana.

Quote
I don`t think most folks who are in favor of legalization stop and think about all the implications involved. Maybe cause they`re too high to think it through rationally.

Hey, I haven't had a whiff of marijuana for over 9 years. Believe me, I'm thinking about this rationally. It's my opinion that those whose feelings on this issue run towards "omfg teh devil's weed!!!11!!twentythree!!1"  are the ones being irrational about it.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: cizinec on October 12, 2005, 09:30:01 PM
Quote
Running alcohol was an equally lucrative business for its time, but prohibition still ended.

Wow.  You're still in la la land.  Running alcohol and smokes illegally is still one of the best bets for organized crime to make money. 


Quote
Yet again, this has nothing to do with marijuana itself, and everything to do with how people react to it.

Unfortunately, if you're Orthodox and openly claim to be so and openly smoke weed you will bring a bad name to the faith for the sake of your indulgence in a bodily pleasure which is illegal in our country and unacceptable in our culture.  If I'm in a place where drinking alcohol is offensive I don't do it because it is not necessary for the faith.

You may wish our culture was like that of Holland's, but it's not and pretending that this makes it right to violate the law and bring a bad name to your church for the sake of your own pleasure is wrong.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: arjuna3110 on October 13, 2005, 04:27:32 PM
Wow.ÂÂ  You're still in la la land.ÂÂ  Running alcohol and smokes illegally is still one of the best bets for organized crime to make money.ÂÂ  


Unfortunately, if you're Orthodox and openly claim to be so and openly smoke weed you will bring a bad name to the faith for the sake of your indulgence in a bodily pleasure which is illegal in our country and unacceptable in our culture.ÂÂ  If I'm in a place where drinking alcohol is offensive I don't do it because it is not necessary for the faith.

You may wish our culture was like that of Holland's, but it's not and pretending that this makes it right to violate the law and bring a bad name to your church for the sake of your own pleasure is wrong.


The two people at this thread who are arguing in favor for legalziing marijuana (or, at least, decriminalizing it) are not smoking it; nor are we otherwise using it.  Your assumption is wrong.

Also, it is not a crime in a free society to discuss matters of politics nor to seek the change of the laws through legal means.

Also, as far as I can tell in Orthodoxy, it is not a sin to discuss matters of morality to determine if, in fact, something is a sin or not.

And, I repeat my position:  I  think that using marijuana is no better and no worse than using strong alcohol.  Therefore, I do not find it to be a sin if it is used responsibly.  What I do find to be a sin is treating the use of marijuana as a crime and putting people in prison when they probably just need treatment.  I would rather legalizie it and tax it, thereby taking the profits and organized crime out of it while rasing some extra tax revenues as is done with tobacco and alcohol. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mo the Ethio on October 16, 2005, 06:52:29 PM
For the record, I never accused anyone personally on this forum of getting high.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: arjuna3110 on October 16, 2005, 08:12:55 PM
For the record, I never accused anyone personally on this forum of getting high.

I know, and I appreciate that fact. 

I think this topic has pretty much run its course.

Peace.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: suzannes on October 17, 2005, 09:18:53 PM
Last post of mine on this topic: I just want to apologize to Cinzinec for losing my temper and becoming angry.  Please forgive me.

I know the Internet doesn't really allow for nuanced statements, or even humor in some cases, and a stupid post I made was just interpreted differently than I intended.  I'm sorry.  I don't want to become angry at Orthodox Christians (or anyone else for that matter.)  Sometimes, you just want to communicate with like-minded people, whatever that means, and I like this board.  So, again please forgive me if I've given offense.  None was intended.  I'm sorry I let things get out of hand.


suzanne
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Bono Vox on December 22, 2008, 12:54:02 AM
After taking an abnormal psychology class (Psychopathology), we had a unit on drug abuse and dependency. As we looked in depth at the different drugs, their effects on people, how addictive they are, side affects, etc... it was clear alcohol was much worse for a person than marijuana. Now, I am by no means encouraging anyone to smoke weed, I do find it interesting many people who consume alcohol are against the legalization of marijuana or think that marijuana is more harmful than alcohol. My theory to this attitutde comes from a sociological point of view (primarily a symbolic interactionist/ labeling theory). Let me explain...

In the U.S, most people do not think of alcohol as a drug; therefore, when one consumes alcohol, they aren't thinking they are doing a drug (though they really are). Marijuana, on the other hand, is illegal and labeled a harmful drug. Most, therefore, internalize this labeling of marijuana and become convinced it is bad or evil because of how it is perceived or labeled by society. There is a stigma attached.

The conflict theorists also make a good point about this issue, but the symbolic interactionists view resonates the most with me on this particular topic.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on December 22, 2008, 11:18:05 AM
After taking an abnormal psychology class (Psychopathology), we had a unit on drug abuse and dependency. As we looked in depth at the different drugs, their effects on people, how addictive they are, side affects, etc... it was clear alcohol was much worse for a person than marijuana. s view resonates the most with me on this particular topic.
Was that another part of the university's anti-alcohol bias? ::)

It seems from what you've said that this was part of a survey course. Who were the authors of your textbook, and whom did they categorize, and what were the criteria for such categories?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Bono Vox on December 22, 2008, 01:45:50 PM
^^ This wasn't a survey course, it was Psychopathology (Mental disorders.....which include substance abuse/dependency in the DSM IV). The text is  "Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology" by Dr. Ronald J. Comer. This is a secular text (most of my texts are secular even though it is a religious university).

This was not part of the Universities anti-alcohol bias (I'm sure the university would disapprove of marijuana even more than alcohol). Again, the class or text is not "pro-marijuana" (neither am I). I just find the topic interesting from a sociological point of view.

If you would like to borrow my text, I'll be happy to lend it to you.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on December 22, 2008, 10:33:18 PM
^^ This wasn't a survey course, it was Psychopathology (Mental disorders.....which include substance abuse/dependency in the DSM IV).
Then why the text entitled thus:

Quote
The text is  "Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology" by Dr. Ronald J. Comer.

Whenever you see "Introduction" or "Fundamentals," or another such word, it's a survey course.

As far as the bias, I'm aware that they disapprove of marijuana, but saying "Alcohol is worse than marijuana, and marijuana is illegal" could be used as an argument for prohibition (as I'm very well aware that prohibition is the official position of that university, being a graduate of it myself).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Bono Vox on December 22, 2008, 10:51:19 PM
^^Ok, I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes, this argument could be used for prohibition by the university (or other like minded groups or individuals). The sociological aspect to the debate is what intrigues me the most. For example, Conflict theorists in sociology would argue alcohol is an accepted drug because those in the dominant group like to use it while those in subordinate groups like to use marijuana. This would be a way (according to the conflict theorists) of the dominant/powerful group suppressing the subordinate group.

And for the record, again, I am not encouraging the use of marijuana, I just like to examine the various sociological aspects of this debate.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on December 22, 2008, 11:27:06 PM
This is an interesting bit of info- the  timeline  (http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj005.htm) of marijuana in the United States.  Just a few interesting tidbits: Looks as if the negative views on marijuana began with the fear of immigrants and the loss of jobs during the Great Depression.  There's also a study from the 20's or 30's stating that marijuana isn't addictive, nor does it make one commit violence or sex crimes.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mo the Ethio on December 22, 2008, 11:45:57 PM
Way to resurrect a ancient thread, dude.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ytterbiumanalyst on December 22, 2008, 11:48:07 PM
^^Ok, I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes, this argument could be used for prohibition by the university (or other like minded groups or individuals). The sociological aspect to the debate is what intrigues me the most.
Naturally. ;)

Quote
For example, Conflict theorists in sociology would argue alcohol is an accepted drug because those in the dominant group like to use it while those in subordinate groups like to use marijuana. This would be a way (according to the conflict theorists) of the dominant/powerful group suppressing the subordinate group.
I'm just saying this is an oversimplification, but then again, such things can be useful in a survey course. ;D
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 12:36:31 AM
Way to resurrect a ancient thread, dude.
Is there something wrong with that?  Whether or not we agree with him, Bono Vox has at least offered up something for substantive discussion.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: LBK on December 23, 2008, 03:28:48 AM
Quote
There's also a study from the 20's or 30's stating that marijuana isn't addictive, nor does it make one commit violence or sex crimes.

Modern marijuana (since the 1980s) has been bred to contain many times more (at least ten times more) THC than the dope of old, yes, even that of the 1960s hippie generation. In other words, marijuana today is a MUCH stronger drug than it used to be, so using a 70-80-year-old study to justify its use, or to argue that it is basically harmless is pointless and dangerous.

There has been a major spike in the last 25 years or so in the incidence of major psychiatric disorders among young people, including manic-depressive disorders. Heredity can only account for a small number of these cases. A much larger proportion are due to marijuana use.

Let's not kid ourselves, folks. Dope ain't a "harmless recreational drug" any more. Look into the stats of your local psych hospital, you might learn something.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Sloga on December 23, 2008, 03:46:44 AM
Quote
There's also a study from the 20's or 30's stating that marijuana isn't addictive, nor does it make one commit violence or sex crimes.

There has been a major spike in the last 25 years or so in the incidence of major psychiatric disorders among young people, including manic-depressive disorders. Heredity can only account for a small number of these cases. A much larger proportion are due to marijuana use.

Corelation does not mean causation. In fact, I'm willing to take a bet without pulling out any of my textbooks and I'll say that the psychological disorders lead to the marijuana use more than the marijuana use leads to the P.D.

Edit: It has long been known that a person with schizophrenic personality disorder is more than twice as likely to be a cigarette smoker. Are you willing to draw parallels and say nicotine causes schizophrenia?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on December 23, 2008, 04:06:59 AM
^^Brother LBK, thank you for your clarifying thoughts.  Although I thought it interesting that a study was put out that conflicted what we were being told at the time, I certainly didn't mean to imply that there are no dangers to marijuana usage.  I would agree with many of you that using marijuana is a bad idea (both from a legal and spiritual standpoint), at the same time I still would not condemn those who have or continue to use it.  We are all weak and frail and, to varying degrees, use bad judgements.  This, then, is why we need to continue to pray for one another.

In addition, as I understand it, there are several different meanings in Greek to the word 'sin'.  I guess depending on which one we employ, maybe marijuana usage could be sinful.  I say this not to judge others, but maybe to caution those who do (or are considering) using it.  I'm not an expert on these things, but it seems that it would be difficult to 'keep watch' if we are drunk or high.  As one who has used marijuana, I can tell you that I wasn't able to focus on very much.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GiC on December 23, 2008, 05:24:12 AM
Modern marijuana (since the 1980s) has been bred to contain many times more (at least ten times more) THC than the dope of old, yes, even that of the 1960s hippie generation. In other words, marijuana today is a MUCH stronger drug than it used to be, so using a 70-80-year-old study to justify its use, or to argue that it is basically harmless is pointless and dangerous.

There has been a major spike in the last 25 years or so in the incidence of major psychiatric disorders among young people, including manic-depressive disorders. Heredity can only account for a small number of these cases. A much larger proportion are due to marijuana use.

Nice theory, but, please, can you present a double blind scientific study that demonstrates both that these are actual direct results of marijuana usage AND that it's dose dependent as you claim?

Quote
Let's not kid ourselves, folks. Dope ain't a "harmless recreational drug" any more. Look into the stats of your local psych hospital, you might learn something.

Please don't tell me you just refered to weed as 'dope'. Bro, this ain't the fifties, doing dope means slamming heroin.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 05:31:44 AM
Modern marijuana (since the 1980s) has been bred to contain many times more (at least ten times more) THC than the dope of old, yes, even that of the 1960s hippie generation. In other words, marijuana today is a MUCH stronger drug than it used to be, so using a 70-80-year-old study to justify its use, or to argue that it is basically harmless is pointless and dangerous.

There has been a major spike in the last 25 years or so in the incidence of major psychiatric disorders among young people, including manic-depressive disorders. Heredity can only account for a small number of these cases. A much larger proportion are due to marijuana use.

Nice theory, but, please, can you present a double blind scientific study that demonstrates both that these are actual direct results of marijuana usage AND that it's dose dependent as you claim?
LBK, I'm with GiC on this.  You've made a bold claim that you need to substantiate from authority other than your own.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: LBK on December 23, 2008, 06:07:15 AM

Here  (http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=Marijuana+psychosis+study&btnG=Search/) are just a few to keep you out of mischief. And, Peter and Greeki, I expect a thorough literature review by the end of the week.  :police:


Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ozgeorge on December 23, 2008, 07:50:18 AM
Corelation does not mean causation.
This was the argument used by tobacco companies for decades against the suggestion that smoking increases the risk of cancer.
According to a recent (2004) study, cannabis use increases the risk of an individual developing schizophrenia twofold, and at a population level, cannabis is the cause of 8% of cases of schizophrenia.
Source: The British Journal of Psychiatry (http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/184/2/110)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: CRCulver on December 23, 2008, 08:58:18 AM
It might be instructive to study not only American populations which supposedly are secretly rife with marijuana use, but cultures where marijuana is accepted as an ordinary thing. When I stayed in Morocco for a while last winter, I saw that just as France has a wine culture, the north of Morocco has a hashish culture. Yet, I saw no descent into barbarism with schizophrenics wandering the streets. And just as with wine one can drink to feel glad, but stop before serious drunkenness, so hashish smokers there understood the concept of restraint.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: LBK on December 23, 2008, 09:43:28 AM
It might be instructive to study not only American populations which supposedly are secretly rife with marijuana use, but cultures where marijuana is accepted as an ordinary thing. When I stayed in Morocco for a while last winter, I saw that just as France has a wine culture, the north of Morocco has a hashish culture. Yet, I saw no descent into barbarism with schizophrenics wandering the streets. And just as with wine one can drink to feel glad, but stop before serious drunkenness, so hashish smokers there understood the concept of restraint.

How much THC is there in Moroccan hash, compared to modern western varieties?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: CRCulver on December 23, 2008, 10:06:51 AM
It might be instructive to study not only American populations which supposedly are secretly rife with marijuana use, but cultures where marijuana is accepted as an ordinary thing. When I stayed in Morocco for a while last winter, I saw that just as France has a wine culture, the north of Morocco has a hashish culture. Yet, I saw no descent into barbarism with schizophrenics wandering the streets. And just as with wine one can drink to feel glad, but stop before serious drunkenness, so hashish smokers there understood the concept of restraint.

How much THC is there in Moroccan hash, compared to modern western varieties?

I've never smoked the stuff so I can't talk about effect, but having spoken with locals in the course of coming up growing areas (which are everywhere in the hills there), they also breed for potency.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GiC on December 23, 2008, 02:19:49 PM

Here  (http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=Marijuana+psychosis+study&btnG=Search/) are just a few to keep you out of mischief. And, Peter and Greeki, I expect a thorough literature review by the end of the week.  :police:

Come on, you can do better than a google search...at least pick one or two of our favourites. I might read through the abstract, statistics, and conclusions of one or two articles. But sifting through 16,000 is asking a bit much for a doctoral dissertation, much less a casual internet discussion. ;)

But a quick review of the first few pages shows several studies conclude little or no causal relationship, for example:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120131475/abstract
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120136671/abstract
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0376871603000644

But of even more interest to me are these articles:

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/092099649400053B

This one found that a group of cannabis using patients with acute psychosis had a 'significantly greater familial morbid risk of schizophrenia' amongst first degree relatives than a control group (7.1% vs. 0.7%). While it could be argued that relatives of cannabis users are more likely to use cannabis than relatives of non-cannabis users (there is a notable cultural component tied to cannabis use, at least in the United States), no study has suggested a 1000% increase in risk of schizophrenia from cannabis use, genetics and other environmental concerns (e.g. early childhood development) seem to be a far more realistic explanations.

And when also considered with this study

http://www.springerlink.com/content/yaal2jhavu8kqta5/

which has some interesting data, but a rather absurd conclusion, actually suggests that there may be a causal relationship between cannabis use and schizophrenia. But I would argue one where a type of schizophrenia increases the propensity towards self-medication and psychological addiction. Considering that after about five years the number of subjects that had switched to alcohol was statistically equivalent (for the size of the study) to the number of subjects that contined use of cannabis. Unfortunately most these studies fail to take into account those who use other drugs, I wonder how many switched to something much stronger. The logical conclusion from this data is that those with a type of schizophrenia (apparently those whose schizophrenia is worse judging from the higher scores on the BPRS and AMDP) are more likely to self medicate; the prevelence of the use of cannabis for self medication in the follow up is also probably skewed as a result of choosing a group consiting exclusively of cannabis users. It would be interesting to see other drug using schizophrenics brought into the equation and the sample size expanded.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 23, 2008, 02:45:24 PM
From what I read, drug use exacerbates symptoms of mental illness; The person already has a mental illness (diagnosed or undiagnosed) and the drug use substitutes for "real medication" which could treat the symptoms.  Such persons are "dual diagnosed" and the underlying drug addiction has to be treated before the mental illness.  More information on Dual Diagnosis and Mental Illness can be found on NAMI's website (http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Dual_Diagnosis_and_Integrated_Treatment_of_Mental_Illness_and_Substance_Abuse_Disorder.htm).

I feel that smoking marijuana is a sin. <Insert 'no' nodding smiley here>
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 03:26:20 PM

Here  (http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=Marijuana+psychosis+study&btnG=Search/) are just a few to keep you out of mischief. And, Peter and Greeki, I expect a thorough literature review by the end of the week.  :police:



If you're not going to post excerpts here, why should we click any of the huge plethora of links to read the articles?  After all, I don't know about GiC, but I have a feast to celebrate tomorrow and Thursday, and I would much rather spend the time with my church and biological families. ;)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 03:33:44 PM
From what I read, drug use exacerbates symptoms of mental illness; The person already has a mental illness (diagnosed or undiagnosed) and the drug use substitutes for "real medication" which could treat the symptoms.  Such persons are "dual diagnosed" and the underlying drug addiction has to be treated before the mental illness.  More information on Dual Diagnosis and Mental Illness can be found on NAMI's website (http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Dual_Diagnosis_and_Integrated_Treatment_of_Mental_Illness_and_Substance_Abuse_Disorder.htm).

I feel that smoking marijuana is a sin. <Insert 'no' nodding smiley here>
But how does marijuana fit into this, except that you have labeled it a drug and lumped it in together with all the other drugs?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 23, 2008, 04:08:35 PM
From what I read, drug use exacerbates symptoms of mental illness; The person already has a mental illness (diagnosed or undiagnosed) and the drug use substitutes for "real medication" which could treat the symptoms.  Such persons are "dual diagnosed" and the underlying drug addiction has to be treated before the mental illness.  More information on Dual Diagnosis and Mental Illness can be found on NAMI's website (http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Dual_Diagnosis_and_Integrated_Treatment_of_Mental_Illness_and_Substance_Abuse_Disorder.htm).

I feel that smoking marijuana is a sin. <Insert 'no' nodding smiley here>
But how does marijuana fit into this, except that you have labeled it a drug

Did you read the link before jumping down my throat?  Do you know how many people with mental illness use alcohol and drugs in a futile effort to mask symptoms of mental illness? 

I can't believe that my benign and helpful statement has opened up a can of worms.  Now I'm in trouble in that I have to prove marijuana isn't a drug.   :(

and lumped it in together with all the other drugs?

Why am I on this forum if you and others think marijuana isn't a drug and that marijuana use is somehow condoned by Orthodox Christianity because you see it as a benign plant?  So I guess meth isn't a drug because meth is prevalent on the West Coast even though meth requires tons of controlled substances for its manufacturing?   ???
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 04:43:04 PM
From what I read, drug use exacerbates symptoms of mental illness; The person already has a mental illness (diagnosed or undiagnosed) and the drug use substitutes for "real medication" which could treat the symptoms.  Such persons are "dual diagnosed" and the underlying drug addiction has to be treated before the mental illness.  More information on Dual Diagnosis and Mental Illness can be found on NAMI's website (http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Dual_Diagnosis_and_Integrated_Treatment_of_Mental_Illness_and_Substance_Abuse_Disorder.htm).

I feel that smoking marijuana is a sin. <Insert 'no' nodding smiley here>
But how does marijuana fit into this, except that you have labeled it a drug

Did you read the link before jumping down my throat?  Do you know how many people with mental illness use alcohol and drugs in a futile effort to mask symptoms of mental illness? 

I can't believe that my benign and helpful statement has opened up a can of worms.  Now I'm in trouble in that I have to prove marijuana isn't a drug.   :(

and lumped it in together with all the other drugs?

Why am I on this forum if you and others think marijuana isn't a drug and that marijuana use is somehow condoned by Orthodox Christianity because you see it as a benign plant?  So I guess meth isn't a drug because meth is prevalent on the West Coast even though meth requires tons of controlled substances for its manufacturing?   ???
Step back, take a few deep breaths, and calm down, dude.  I'm not jumping down your throat.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 23, 2008, 08:00:24 PM
Step back, take a few deep breaths, and calm down, dude.  I'm not jumping down your throat.

Two days before Christmas and here we are debtaing whether marijuana is a drug or not.   ???

If this forum and its moderators accept marijuana use as benign and not sinful, I'm posting in Prayer Forum and Random Topics only.  I really don't care what people do in their own homes; However, I'm not going to spend one more second in this forum when a moderator challenges me on whether or not marijuana is a drug.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 08:40:42 PM
Step back, take a few deep breaths, and calm down, dude.  I'm not jumping down your throat.
First off, have you followed the above advice?  You really should do so before you continue posting on this thread, since you are so obviously riled up.  As for me, please forgive me for causing such a misunderstanding that has left you so offended. :-[

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Two days before Christmas and here we are debtaing whether marijuana is a drug or not.   ???
No, we are not debating whether marijuana is a drug or not.  I have neither seen nor consciously offered any indication that anyone here takes issue with our society's association of marijuana with other drugs.  You made a very general statement of how the mentally ill often use drugs to self-medicate, but you did not identify any specific examples of such drugs.  You may have also noticed that the OP of this thread addresses specifically the use of marijuana, not the use of drugs in general.  I consider marijuana a drug, just as I consider the caffeine I consume everyday a drug.  I had just hoped to draw from you specific examples of how the mentally ill use marijuana to self-medicate, since that is more appropriate for this thread than a discussion of drug use in general.

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If this forum and its moderators accept marijuana use as benign and not sinful, I'm posting in Prayer Forum and Random Topics only.
I do not accept the use of marijuana as benign and sinless, nor do I condemn it without condition.  Even if I did feel strongly one way or the other, I have a responsibility as a moderator to encourage discussion of faith-impacting issues, regardless of my personal opinion on the issues.  You have no doubt seen that we moderators are not about making sure only the Orthodox or acceptable point of view is expressed in discussion.  Why have a discussion forum, then?  Some people here deem marijuana use acceptable; some do not.  We need to encourage discussion of these two opposing points of view (and the many different shades in between) so that those who have no clear opinion may form one based on the flow of information and so that those who have opinions may understand the other point of view better.  Would you wish that we moderators squelch this in order to protect your dogmatic point of view that the use of marijuana is sinful?  If you deem marijuana use sinful, please tell us why, for we may want to learn from you your point of view.

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I really don't care what people do in their own homes; However, I'm not going to spend one more second in this forum when a moderator challenges me on whether or not marijuana is a drug.
Again, please take some time to cool off so you can understand more correctly what I DID say.  You may have noticed that I did not post in green or red text; I spoke only in the standard black text, which indicates that I spoke only as another poster and NOT as a moderator.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ozgeorge on December 23, 2008, 09:27:28 PM
If this forum and its moderators accept marijuana use as benign and not sinful, I'm posting in Prayer Forum and Random Topics only.
I am a Global Moderator on this forum. Did you see my post on this thread before this one? Clearly I don't see Cannabis use as benign. Other's opinions disagree with mine and with the findings of the study from the British Journal of Psychiatry I sourced. That's OK- that's what a forum is for. Rather than threaten to take your bat and ball and go, I'll try and show you another way of arguing the case that THC use is not benign and is a sin.
This topic is in Faith Issues, so we need to address it as a Faith Issue from the Orthodox viewpoint. Firstly, Cannabis use is hardly a Dogmatic topic in the Orthodox Church, so being dogmatic is not going to help. We have posters on this forum who make dogmatic claims about men having beards, but that doesn't make it a dogmatic topic in the Church, it just makes them bad rhetoricians.  From a moral point of view, Cannabis intoxication would clearly be on par with alcohol intoxication in that it produces a state which is the opposite to the Christian virtue the Fathers call "nepsis" ("sobriety", "vigilance"). Therefore Cannabis is a hindrance, not a help to the Orthodox Spiritual life. Added to this is the increased risk of triggering psychotic mental illness. All of us have a predisposition to developing psychosis, but some more than others. There has been some headway made into being able to identify those at higher risk of developing schizophrenias (eg, the startle response, eye movements etc) but not enough to be able to conclusively determine who will or won't develop schizophrenia. Studies have shown that those with higher predispositions increase their chances of triggering their first psychosis with Cannabis use (which makes perfect sense, since THC belongs to a category of drugs known as hallucinogens). Studies have also shown that the duration and recurrence of psychotic episodes lowers their chance of recovery. But all this is beside the point of whether THC use is a sin. If sin is "to miss the mark", and, if the mark is nepsis, then THC use misses the mark and is a sin.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 23, 2008, 09:38:15 PM
^ ozgeorge, I agree with the above post totally; I know and I respect your role here.   :)  When I posted the link to NAMI, I ended that post by saying marijuana use was a sin even though I didn't justify why using marijuana was a sin.  The link to NAMI was meant to show how mentally ill people self-medicated with "street drugs" when people were posting stuff saying the reverse ... using "street drugs" caused mental illness.  If anything, I tried to educate and inform.   :angel:

In PtA's response, I felt he ignored me and we had miscommunication.  I was afraid of moderation (e.g. Because I labeled marijuana as a drug; therefore, prove it or get a colored dot) and the strong reply.  I jumped the gun and I'm sorry.   :'(  :angel:

If I have been deemed too "dumb" for this forum, I can always make Prayer requests, post Random stuff or engage in Political discussion.   :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Riddikulus on December 23, 2008, 09:40:34 PM
ozgeorge,

Thanks for the above information. Really interesting! You have helped me formulate a more definite opinion on this subject.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 23, 2008, 09:45:15 PM
First off, have you followed the above advice?  You really should do so before you continue posting on this thread, since you are so obviously riled up.  As for me, please forgive me for causing such a misunderstanding that has left you so offended. :-[

I forgive you as well and Please forgive me for I'm sorry.   :)
I was posting from my own experiences regarding how the mentally ill use all kinds of drugs and alcohol to self-medicate.  Your initial response was taken as a slap to my face; hence, the reaction.

No, we are not debating whether marijuana is a drug or not.  I have neither seen nor consciously offered any indication that anyone here takes issue with our society's association of marijuana with other drugs.  You made a very general statement of how the mentally ill often use drugs to self-medicate, but you did not identify any specific examples of such drugs. 

Did I have to be specific?  I felt the link to the advocacy website was adequate enough.  I know of people who've taken every kind of drug to self-medicate from a mental illness and the "street drugs" didn't make things better.  Personally, I've never used any illegal drug.

You may have also noticed that the OP of this thread addresses specifically the use of marijuana, not the use of drugs in general.  I consider marijuana a drug, just as I consider the caffeine I consume everyday a drug.  I had just hoped to draw from you specific examples of how the mentally ill use marijuana to self-medicate, since that is more appropriate for this thread than a discussion of drug use in general.

Specific examples (http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=advice&id=182&at=2&cn=4&ad_2=1&submit=I+Agree) on how the mentally ill use marijuana to self-medicate?  All you had to do was ask.   ;)

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Persons such as yourself who have (judging from your medicines) problems with anxiety, mood swings and psychotic symptoms should NEVER NEVER EVER go near marijuana. Your brain is already having some problems staying stable. All those medicines you are taking are there to try to hold your brain together in a reasonable semblance of normalcy. If you take these medicines as prescribed, you can have a good chance of remaining reasonably healthy. If you smoke or eat marijuana you will be sabotaging your treatment - hurting the chances of your medicines to help you remain stable, and forcing your brain to get even more whacked out than it already is. If you even hang around with other people who smoke, you're going to want to smoke yourself. Only thing is - you can't afford to smoke because your brain will blow a gasket. If you care about yourself - if you care about other people around you (your family, your friends, your loved ones, a therapist you respect, anyone at all who you might care about and who might care for you) then please ditch those pot smoking friends, and stay away from marijuana.

I do not accept the use of marijuana as benign and sinless, nor do I condemn it without condition.  Even if I did feel strongly one way or the other, I have a responsibility as a moderator to encourage discussion of faith-impacting issues, regardless of my personal opinion on the issues.  You have no doubt seen that we moderators are not about making sure only the Orthodox or acceptable point of view is expressed in discussion.  Why have a discussion forum, then?  Some people here deem marijuana use acceptable; some do not.  We need to encourage discussion of these two opposing points of view (and the many different shades in between) so that those who have no clear opinion may form one based on the flow of information and so that those who have opinions may understand the other point of view better.  Would you wish that we moderators squelch this in order to protect your dogmatic point of view that the use of marijuana is sinful?  If you deem marijuana use sinful, please tell us why, for we may want to learn from you your point of view.

ozgeorge provided one explanation which I'm in total agreement; hence, I'll allow what he said to be my reasoning.   :)

Again, please take some time to cool off so you can understand more correctly what I DID say.  You may have noticed that I did not post in green or red text; I spoke only in the standard black text, which indicates that I spoke only as another poster and NOT as a moderator.

I understand better and I'm deeply sorry.   :angel:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 23, 2008, 09:59:12 PM
Well, let me offer a counterexample to get you all thinking.  The voters of the state of Oregon recently passed a law to permit the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes (e.g., management of the pain caused by cancer, Crohn's Disease, glaucoma, etc.).  Granted, the user must have a prescription from a licensed physician to smoke marijuana for such a purpose.  Is this proper within the light of the Orthodox perspective Ozgeorge attempted to explain above?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ozgeorge on December 23, 2008, 10:01:33 PM
^ ozgeorge, I agree with the above post totally; I know and I respect your role here.   :)  When I posted the link to NAMI, I ended that post by saying marijuana use was a sin even though I didn't justify why using marijuana was a sin.  The link to NAMI was meant to show how mentally ill people self-medicated with "street drugs" when people were posting stuff saying the reverse ... using "street drugs" caused mental illness.  If anything, I tried to educate and inform.   :angel:

In PtA's response, I felt he ignored me and we had miscommunication.  I was afraid of moderation (e.g. Because I labeled marijuana as a drug; therefore, prove it or get a colored dot) and the strong reply.  I jumped the gun and I'm sorry.   :'(  :angel:

If I have been deemed too "dumb" for this forum, I can always make Prayer requests, post Random stuff or engage in Political discussion.   :)

Firstly, you're not dumb.
Secondly, unless a moderator is posting in green font, they are not acting as a moderator, but as another poster, just like you.

Well, let me offer a counterexample to get you all thinking.  The voters of the state of Oregon recently passed a law to permit the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes (e.g., management of the pain caused by cancer, Crohn's Disease, glaucoma, etc.).  Granted, the user must have a prescription from a licensed physician to smoke marijuana for such a purpose.  Is this proper within the light of the Orthodox perspective Ozgeorge attempted to explain above?

Now, let's examine this question of the morality of Cannabis use a bit further. As you can see, I agree with the notion that Cannabis intoxication "misses the mark" as far as nepsis goes. However, what about it's medical use? We actually use quite a few medications which reduce nepsis, especially in Palliative Care (treatments whose aim is symptom control rather than curative, eg in the end stages of terminal illnesses). For example, is it a sin to use Morphine to control the pain of end stage cancer because Morphine produces a state opposite to nepsis? Clearly, context is what is important here. Someone who doesn't need morphine, but is using it to produce intoxication is sinning, but someone who needs morphine prescribed to control pain is not sinning. It is the agent, not the act, which determines the morality of the act. Similarly, THC is actually a powerful anti-nauseant. Many people on chemotherapy, radiotherapy and anti-retrovirals experience intractable nausea and vomiting which even powerful anti-nauseants (such as Ondansetron) are unable to control, however, Cannabis is able to control it, and I have actually heard doctors recommending it to patients. So Cannabis also has medical uses. But, in many countries and states, it's use is illegal, so what do we do? Is it a sin to use it medicinally because in doing so we are disobeying Civil Authorities, or, as Christians, should we disobey a law in cases where to obey it causes the increased suffering of terminally ill patients?
So while I think Cannabis intoxication "for the hell of it" is sinful, I don't think we can absolve ourselves of the responsibility of examining it's medical uses. Even Cocaine has medical uses (it is used to stop bleeding during nasal surgery).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Eleos on December 24, 2008, 01:17:17 AM
Here is a passage from St Basil's Homily "The Germination of the Earth" that, while not mentioning cannabis, still provides some useful and applicable perspective in my opinion:
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What shall I say? What shall I leave unsaid? In the rich treasures of creation it is difficult to select what is most precious; the loss of what is omitted is too severe. "Let the earth bring forth grass;" and instantly, with useful plants, appear noxious plants; with corn, hemlock; with the other nutritious plants, hellebore, monkshood, mandrake and the juice of the poppy. What then? Shall we show no gratitude for so many beneficial gifts, and reproach the Creator for those which may be harmful to our life? And shall we not reflect that all has not been created in view of the wants of our bellies? The nourishing plants, which are destined for our use, are close at hand, and known by all the world. But in creation nothing exists without a reason. The blood of the bull is a poison: ought this animal then, whose strength is so serviceable to man, not to have been created, or, if created, to have been bloodless? But you have sense enough in yourself to keep you free froth deadly things. What! Sheep and goats know how to turn away from what threatens their life, discerning danger by instinct alone: and you, who have reason and the art of medicine to supply what you need, and the experience of your forebears to tell you to avoid all that is dangerous, you tell me that you find it difficult to keep yourself from poisons! But not a single thing has been created without reason, not a single thing is useless. One serves as food to some animal; medicine has found in another a relief for one of our maladies. Thus the starling eats hemlock, its constitution rendering it insusceptible to the action of the poison. Thanks to the tenuity of the pores of its heart, the malignant juice is on sooner swallowed than it is digested, before its chill can attack the vital parts. The quail, thanks to its peculiar temperament, whereby it escapes the dangerous effects, feeds on hellebore. There are even circumstances where poisons are useful to men; with mandrake doctors give us sleep; with opium they lull violent pain. Hemlock has ere now been used to appease the rage of unruly diseases; and many times hellebore has taken away long standing disease. These plants, then, instead of making you accuse the Creator, give you a new subject for gratitude.
Personally, I think it is abused more often than not, however I think adults should have the freedom to decide for themselves about this God-created seed bearing plant with their own very capable God-created minds.  Also, we'd be better off ending the useless and expensive drug war (as far as marijuana is concerned).  The non-psychoactive qualities of hemp in and of themselves are so valuable that it could be a great boom to the US economy.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GiC on December 24, 2008, 01:40:41 AM
Personally, I've never used any illegal drug.

Once you've tried a few we should try this conversation again. You seem to have certain preconceived notions that demonstrate a lack of experience with not only the drugs themselves but, probably of even more importantly, also with communities where their use is prevalent. You really have no right to condemn certain people for self-medicating when you haven't lived their life.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 24, 2008, 02:25:42 AM
Once you've tried a few we should try this conversation again.

The consequences of my taking "street drugs" outweigh the benefits.  That may not apply for everyone and I know how that applies to me.

You seem to have certain preconceived notions that demonstrate a lack of experience with not only the drugs themselves but, probably of even more importantly, also with communities where their use is prevalent.

I can give you a tour of inner city Baltimore if you're interested.   We can see the "street drug" trade up close and personal.  Last time I gave a friend a tour of inner city Baltimore, a number of young people thought my friend and I were police officers and took off.  :)

There is no need for me to take "street drugs" to know the consequences.

You really have no right to condemn certain people for self-medicating when you haven't lived their life.

I don't believe I condemned anyone; All I said was that taking "street drugs" didn't help people with mental illness.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 24, 2008, 02:39:02 AM
Here is a passage from St Basil's Homily "The Germination of the Earth" that, while not mentioning cannabis, still provides some useful and applicable perspective in my opinion:
Quote
What shall I say? What shall I leave unsaid? In the rich treasures of creation it is difficult to select what is most precious; the loss of what is omitted is too severe. "Let the earth bring forth grass;" and instantly, with useful plants, appear noxious plants; with corn, hemlock; with the other nutritious plants, hellebore, monkshood, mandrake and the juice of the poppy. What then? Shall we show no gratitude for so many beneficial gifts, and reproach the Creator for those which may be harmful to our life? And shall we not reflect that all has not been created in view of the wants of our bellies? The nourishing plants, which are destined for our use, are close at hand, and known by all the world. But in creation nothing exists without a reason. The blood of the bull is a poison: ought this animal then, whose strength is so serviceable to man, not to have been created, or, if created, to have been bloodless? But you have sense enough in yourself to keep you free froth deadly things. What! Sheep and goats know how to turn away from what threatens their life, discerning danger by instinct alone: and you, who have reason and the art of medicine to supply what you need, and the experience of your forebears to tell you to avoid all that is dangerous, you tell me that you find it difficult to keep yourself from poisons! But not a single thing has been created without reason, not a single thing is useless. One serves as food to some animal; medicine has found in another a relief for one of our maladies. Thus the starling eats hemlock, its constitution rendering it insusceptible to the action of the poison. Thanks to the tenuity of the pores of its heart, the malignant juice is on sooner swallowed than it is digested, before its chill can attack the vital parts. The quail, thanks to its peculiar temperament, whereby it escapes the dangerous effects, feeds on hellebore. There are even circumstances where poisons are useful to men; with mandrake doctors give us sleep; with opium they lull violent pain. Hemlock has ere now been used to appease the rage of unruly diseases; and many times hellebore has taken away long standing disease. These plants, then, instead of making you accuse the Creator, give you a new subject for gratitude.
Personally, I think it is abused more often than not, however I think adults should have the freedom to decide for themselves about this God-created seed bearing plant with their own very capable God-created minds.  Also, we'd be better off ending the useless and expensive drug war (as far as marijuana is concerned).  The non-psychoactive qualities of hemp in and of themselves are so valuable that it could be a great boom to the US economy.
But this thread isn't about whether marijuana should be legalized.  This thread is about whether the smoking of marijuana, legal or not, is a sin.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GiC on December 24, 2008, 02:43:07 AM
I can give you a tour of inner city Baltimore if you're interested.   We can see the "street drug" trade up close and personal.  Last time I gave a friend a tour of inner city Baltimore, a number of young people thought my friend and I were police officers and took off.  :)

I think that demonstrates my point. You have observed some of these populations as though they were in a zoo. If your presence caused people to flee at your very sight, I seriously doubt got to know members of this community and understand their lives and perspectives.

If you have some medical condition that would make various substances exceptionally dangerous to your health, fine, that's a reasonable excuse not to try them yourself (though I seriously doubt that cannabis would cause an allergic, allergies to cannabis are, while not unheard of, quite rare...then again, the stuff ain't all that good either IMO). But, if you're going to opine on the moral quality of their use, it's not an excuse to fail to understand the communities that use them to be so far removed from these segments of society that they flee at your very presence. (Oh, and be careful with that one, in some places people may flee, I've been in others where they'll just shoot.)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 24, 2008, 02:52:26 AM
I don't believe I condemned anyone; All I said was that taking "street drugs" didn't help people with mental illness.
Something I just thought about:  I'm curious to know how you conclude from the fact that some mentally ill persons self-medicate with marijuana that the smoking of marijuana is by itself a sin.  The logic doesn't follow.  Now, if you want to conclude from your example that self-medication with street drugs is a sin, I would buy your reasoning as sound.  But how does your example lead one to conclude that marijuana smoking for ANY reason by those NOT struggling with mental illness is a sin?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 24, 2008, 02:53:21 AM
I think that demonstrates my point. You have observed some of these populations as though they were in a zoo. If your presence caused people to flee at your very sight, I seriously doubt got to know members of this community and understand their lives and perspectives.

I can't explain why people flee from my very sight and that's not my concern.
I have interacted with members of the community and understood their lives and perspectives.

If you have some medical condition that would make various substances exceptionally dangerous to your health, fine, that's a reasonable excuse not to try them yourself (though I seriously doubt that cannabis would cause an allergic, allergies to cannabis are, while not unheard of, quite rare...then again, the stuff ain't all that good either IMO).

There's not much that I'm allergic to and tempting fate isn't my idea of Christmas holidays.   ;)

But, if you're going to opine on the moral quality of their use, it's not an excuse to fail to understand the communities that use them to be so far removed from these segments of society that they flee at your very presence. (Oh, and be careful with that one, in some places people may flee, I've been in others where they'll just shoot.)

I've been in rough neighborhoods elsewhere (like Roxbury or the former Combat Zone in Boston) and had no problems.  One time, someone in the Combat Zone offered my friend drugs and I ignored the person making the offer.  Later, my friend asked me if I heard the drug deal and I told him that I was in lala land.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 24, 2008, 03:03:04 AM
I don't believe I condemned anyone; All I said was that taking "street drugs" didn't help people with mental illness.
Something I just thought about:  I'm curious to know how you conclude from the fact that some mentally ill persons self-medicate with marijuana that the smoking of marijuana is by itself a sin.  The logic doesn't follow. 

Well, on one hand, both underlined statements are mutually exclusive statements.  On the other hand, a mentally ill person who self-medicates with marijuana feels that taking marijuana doesn't expose one to stigma or other misperceptions of obtaining mental health treatment.  Some people don't like talking to therapists and think that rugged individualism will take care of the mental illness.  Haven't we seen threads where too much self-reliance tends to place God in the back seat?  If I say that self-medicating with marijuana puts God in the back seat, even if He created marijuana for some unknown purpose and marijuana has been around for a very long time, then why do we believe in God in the first place?

Now, if you want to conclude from your example that self-medication with street drugs is a sin, I would buy your reasoning as sound.  But how does your example lead one to conclude that marijuana smoking for ANY reason by those NOT struggling with mental illness is a sin?

The last two sentences of the above addresses your question.  When God created the Marijuana plant, some animal could eat it and live without any ill effects.  If man partakes of the marijuana plant, he experiences hallucinations and other relaxed feelings.  Why would God wish for man to live in an altered mental state whether this state was beneficial to man or not?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 24, 2008, 03:16:42 AM
Something I just thought about:  I'm curious to know how you conclude from the fact that some mentally ill persons self-medicate with marijuana that the smoking of marijuana is by itself a sin.  The logic doesn't follow. 

Well, on one hand, both underlined statements are mutually exclusive statements.
How so?  I don't see this.

Quote
On the other hand, a mentally ill person who self-medicates with marijuana feels that taking marijuana doesn't expose one to stigma or other misperceptions of obtaining mental health treatment.  Some people don't like talking to therapists and think that rugged individualism will take care of the mental illness.  Haven't we seen threads where too much self-reliance tends to place God in the back seat?  If I say that self-medicating with marijuana puts God in the back seat, even if He created marijuana for some unknown purpose and marijuana has been around for a very long time, then why do we believe in God in the first place?
Well, then, this says that self-medication is a sin.  What about those of us who use marijuana for purposes other than self-medication?

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Now, if you want to conclude from your example that self-medication with street drugs is a sin, I would buy your reasoning as sound.  But how does your example lead one to conclude that marijuana smoking for ANY reason by those NOT struggling with mental illness is a sin?

The last two sentences of the above addresses your question.
Actually, they only say that the smoking of marijuana by the mentally ill for the purpose of self-medication is a sin.

Quote
When God created the Marijuana plant, some animal could eat it and live without any ill effects.  If man partakes of the marijuana plant, he experiences hallucinations and other relaxed feelings.  Why would God wish for man to live in an altered mental state whether this state was beneficial to man or not?
Now that this looks at the effect of marijuana smoke on members of the general population, mentally ill or no, THIS statement answers my question. ;)  You just need to expand your example to talk about how marijuana smoke affects the average, mentally healthy person.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Eleos on December 24, 2008, 04:33:50 AM
But this thread isn't about whether marijuana should be legalized.  This thread is about whether the smoking of marijuana, legal or not, is a sin.
My speculation is that it is sometimes a sin.  Not always.  I don't think the question can be fully answered without the freedom to pursue it experientially, which we don't fully have, hence Bono Vox's point:
Quote
Marijuana, on the other hand, is illegal and labeled a harmful drug. Most, therefore, internalize this labeling of marijuana and become convinced it is bad or evil because of how it is perceived or labeled by society. There is a stigma attached.
St Basil says "you, who have reason and the art of medicine to supply what you need, and the experience of your forebears to tell you to avoid all that is dangerous, you tell me that you find it difficult to keep yourself from poisons!", and I believe he has a more elevated view of us humans and than the U.S. federal law does.  Our forebears have not settled the question when it comes to marijuana seeing that it has been in practical use, medicinally and otherwise at various times and places in history and also taboo and criminalized in other times and places.

As far as nepsis being the opposite of its psychoactive effects, I'm not convinced by this argument.  Which master of watchfulness has come out and said that it's impossible for one to avoid assent to temptations under the influence of THC, and at what dosage?  If this is true for one person, is it true for all?  Similarly, with the psychoactive effects of alcohol, does it truly make it impossible for one to avoid assent to sinful thoughts?  I'm not sure that the "sobriety" of the fathers is equivalent to the modern concept of it which, coincidentally is rooted in the same era as the criminalization of alcohol & marijuana and other "drugs".  I wish there were more sources by spiritual fathers on the subject, but unfortunately I haven't found any.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Hopeful Faithful on December 24, 2008, 05:32:15 PM
Good health to everyone.

Hemp and tobacco smoking is against God, they are vices (the opposite of virtue). They are extraordinary sins, sins unto death. These herbs are violent when ingested and are addictive and instantly intoxicating. They change behavior and are on par with hard liquor. They are devils incense. They are strictly forbidden to the person who loves Christ.

In medieval times Russia offered the death penalty, even beheading, for those with the sin of this temporary pleasure. They even constituted heresy, being a western way of living which heretics adopted from pagans. They are poisons and using them is devilishly suicidal. Smoking is abominable, a filth in the mouth.

In 1634 the Greek Orthodox Church said it was the smoking of a herb which intoxicated Noah, so they banned its use. Smoking burns up all your good deeds, the holy angels will never sit next to you if you smoke.

Here is a reference that explains how one cannabis joint equals five cigarettes

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/Smoking/6298 (http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/Smoking/6298)

I have a web page on my site with much more info, for those interested. It is my most popular page, for what it is worth. I need to update it and there is more content to add, if time allows.

Forgive, John
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on December 24, 2008, 05:45:02 PM
You just need to expand your example to talk about how marijuana smoke affects the average, mentally healthy person.

"Lead us not into Temptation."  I'm not the right person to speak on this topic for I have never used marijuana.

I walked through a marijuana festival in Boston one year when I was in college with my friend and his GF.  While the people were laid back and relaxed, I felt a sense of something not being right in that people were using marijuana to make a statement of defiance.

For those who yield their will to God, why would they want to yield their will to a plant?  Are they being defiant towards God if they voluntarily and knowingly use marijuana or do the hallucinatory properties of marijuana deceive them into thinking they are doing God's will?  For both answers, they are back at the allegorical Garden of Eden where Satan tells Eve that she will be like God by eating the Tree of Good and Evil.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ozgeorge on December 24, 2008, 06:11:39 PM
They are strictly forbidden to the person who loves Christ.
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 24, 2008, 10:01:54 PM
Good health to everyone.

Hemp and tobacco smoking is against God, they are vices (the opposite of virtue). They are extraordinary sins, sins unto death. These herbs are violent when ingested and are addictive and instantly intoxicating. They change behavior and are on par with hard liquor. They are devils incense. They are strictly forbidden to the person who loves Christ.

In medieval times Russia offered the death penalty, even beheading, for those with the sin of this temporary pleasure. They even constituted heresy, being a western way of living which heretics adopted from pagans. They are poisons and using them is devilishly suicidal. Smoking is abominable, a filth in the mouth.

In 1634 the Greek Orthodox Church said it was the smoking of a herb which intoxicated Noah, so they banned its use. Smoking burns up all your good deeds, the holy angels will never sit next to you if you smoke.

Here is a reference that explains how one cannabis joint equals five cigarettes

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/Smoking/6298 (http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/Smoking/6298)

I have a web page on my site with much more info, for those interested. It is my most popular page, for what it is worth. I need to update it and there is more content to add, if time allows.

Forgive, John
You got any sources to back this up other than "John Alden said so"?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: prodromas on December 25, 2008, 05:04:29 AM
They are strictly forbidden to the person who loves Christ.
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

George this line made my day hahaha
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: new illumined on December 26, 2008, 02:19:12 PM
I am finding this thread very fascinating. I have often wondered the question: Is smoking marijuana a sin? Coming from a religion with an extremely legalistic approach to matters. I needed to question this.
I read every post here and thought everyone made very good points.

I am neutral on this right now. I need to contemplate about this and pray about it. But here is my initial viewpoints.
I tried to put the issue in my mind by presenting marijuana in the most non controversial way. This is my way of boiling it down to just God and the user.

The conditions:
1. What if person was put in a place where Marijuana was legal to use for personal reasons other than medical.

There are actual places like this. I would then say that there would be no sin here by breaking a common law.

2. Can one use Marijuana moderately in such a way of not harming their neighbours around them in a second hand way.

One can ingest foods and drinks that are mixed with the plant compounds found in Marijuana. Second hand smoke would not be an issue here and the neighbours best interest would be found above the personal.

3. What if a persons actual use of marijuana did not affect other people around them.

One could use marijuana privately and/or around ones that would not have a condemnatory issue with it. Thus eliminating the stigma behind it.

4. What if marijuana in it's use could be made to have varying levels of intoxication.

Marijuana can be used in such a way by dilution or cutting with other compounds. The level of the affects can be controled then by amount of consumption.

5. Do the affects of MILD or very MODERATE use of marijuana experienced by the person cause one to loose their spiritual awareness. Would this close the nous so much one acts very contrary to what that person would be experiencing in a completely normal state of mind.

This one I cannot answer. And it has puzzled me. I have experienced marijuana use and can say that the affects for me personally can be different than another. I noticed that when some people drink they can become very angry energetic and awful in nature while others seem to be silly, mellow and almost sleepy. From my past experience with marijuana I always seemed to go unnoticed while in its affects. I worked and never found people taking issue with me being different or out-of-mind or out of control. I kept a moderate approach.  Music and art and all the senses were enhanced many times. With abuse the situation is completely different. And I noticed slightly different affects with different people and at different amounts. I think the stigma that goes around with marijuana is the biggest problem. Just posting on this thread is an example to that. There could be some health risks also.


Here is a story. Our imaginary character is called Jo. The name is fictional and not related to any forum member. The whole story is fictional and I should also make the anti stigma disclaimer that it is an attempt to isolate external problems associated around the use of marijuana that have been discussed on this forum and is to try to boil down to the core basic OP on this thread topic on the use of marijuana and if God would approve or disapprove. It does not condon the use of it.


Jo lives in a land where marijuana is legal. It's the end of the day and so after work he decides to go to the store and buy some marijuana. He finds a small can in the variety that he likes. He pays for it then returns home. Later that night he opens the can and prepares his marijuana tea using his favorite recipe. He prepares enough just to make one small cup.  He knows not to take to much. Just enough for him to enjoy and relax the evening watching a movie.  After the movie he still is feeling slight affects but decides to do his lectionary reading and his prayers. He retires for the evening.

At this point, based solely on the use of the assumption, that Jo used marijuana moderately and is using it in a self controled manner, can it be said that he sinned?

Given in the above context I am not sure how to answer this. It all depends on how it affected him during the intoxication. Could the effects of the movie be worse or different? Could the affects of the marijuana be helpful or harmful for him when reading the Bible and praying? If we substitute the marijuana tea with say a strong drink would it be the same or different and how.

With the thought that I am not sure about how the affects can manifest themselves in certain individuals and how it affects the dynamics of the nous even in moderate consumption, I need to be cautious with a bold statement either way if it is a sin or not. I would say however that it may be sin to use it in many forms and for certian individuals and in certian settings. Just as alchohol can be viewed that way also. A sin for some but not for others. I am not sure that even makes sense.

I don't judge people if they do decide to use it in moderation and self control and it is appropriated by wholesome means. I don't judge either the ones that have an opposition to it.

Romans 14:19-23 fits my viewpoint nicely

19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith?  Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

St John Chrysostom is paraphrased in a comment on this verse in the OSB in saying that those who are weak in faith may sin, not because the action is wrong in itself but because in their hearts they think they are betraying God and proceed anyway. This action is sin because it does not come from the person's faith.

Unless I completely misunderstand the context of St. John Chrysostom and the verses above, those that condemn marijuana use and use it are sinning those that approve it and use it are not. This all hinges however on whether the affects of MODERATE use of marijuana has on the individual and its ramifications on his or her spiritual life.

Merry Christmas to all

NI
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Hopeful Faithful on December 28, 2008, 10:18:45 AM
The Lord offers Good News on doers of heathen practices like smoking, etc., the command to separate from heathen (see any apostate bible reference at Matt. 18: 17). Heresy is never pure. It is heresy to contradict Christ. Misbelievers must be rejected, a condition we should all recognize. It is their choice if they smoke herbs. There is no excuse, anyone can learn and do what is right. Orthodox practice stands apart from such abominations, not with them. Smoking is said to be the "ruin of both body and soul." The Great Apostasy is now. We had better watch out, because it is extremely contagious. Tsar Solomon who built the first Temple in Jerusalem said, "a companion of fools shall be destroyed." We become what we immitate.

Forgive, John
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Hopeful Faithful on December 28, 2008, 10:26:09 AM
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

The Iconoclasts were beard shavers, beard shaving was 1 of 5 reasons for the Great Schism between the Pope and Orthodox (the Greeks were shocked that the Latin's started shaving). The Seventh Ecumenical Council declares that Christians are to imitate Christ. No Apostle, nor their successors, shaved. In the Lives of the Saints it is said that shaving is effeminate. If people desire to be unorthodox that is their choice, but they cannot fool everyone into thinking they are Orthodox. My site offers more than enough authentic references for the genuine student on such issues. No smiling or eyelash batting here.

Forgive, John
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: ozgeorge on December 28, 2008, 10:42:54 AM
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

The Iconoclasts were beard shavers, beard shaving was 1 of 5 reasons for the Great Schism between the Pope and Orthodox (the Greeks were shocked that the Latin's started shaving). The Seventh Ecumenical Council declares that Christians are to imitate Christ. No Apostle, nor their successors, shaved. In the Lives of the Saints it is said that shaving is effeminate. If people desire to be unorthodox that is their choice, but they cannot fool everyone into thinking they are Orthodox. My site offers more than enough authentic references for the genuine student on such issues. No smiling or eyelash batting here.

Forgive, John

Yep. Exactly my point.
BTW, the emoticon is not "smiling or eyelash batting"; it's rolling it's eyes.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: prodromas on December 28, 2008, 12:15:44 PM
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

The Iconoclasts were beard shavers, beard shaving was 1 of 5 reasons for the Great Schism between the Pope and Orthodox (the Greeks were shocked that the Latin's started shaving). The Seventh Ecumenical Council declares that Christians are to imitate Christ. No Apostle, nor their successors, shaved. In the Lives of the Saints it is said that shaving is effeminate. If people desire to be unorthodox that is their choice, but they cannot fool everyone into thinking they are Orthodox. My site offers more than enough authentic references for the genuine student on such issues. No smiling or eyelash batting here.

Forgive, John

How come you still use the devilish internet? isn't this just as bad as shaving? Also what were the other 4 reasons for the Great Schism.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: NorthernPines on December 28, 2008, 12:47:34 PM
My two cents, like anything used outside of God's plan for it, it CAN be a sin. But I don't think it's automatically a sin. Most medications that are legal around the world (or at least in the U.S.) are way more dangerous and addictive than pot, yet we don't think people taking these are comitting a sin. Just check out the American drug ads on TV...taking this medication may lead to various side effects including, diziness, upset stomach, internal bleeding and death"..., yet they're not sinful automatically, but they could be.

These exact same legal drugs can be sold on the street to people who don't need them, and hence they can become sinful.

At least marijuana is usually in it's natural state (unlike most medications which are drastically altered by man) and I don't believe there is any substance that God has created that is inherently sinful IF it is used in the manner that God intends it to be used..this is the trick however and we as humans have a pretty bad track record for using things in their proper context....it's our use of the substance that can be sinful IMO and not the substance itself.

 Far more people are killed, made ill, beaten, abused and have their health and lives ruined by alcohol every year than by marijuana, yet that's ok and not sinful as long as done "in moderation"...why would marijuana be any different? Satan didn't create pot because he has no creative power at all, he can only twist and pervert things, and maybe that's what's happened with marijuana, I do not know...but I'm sure there is a proper use for it.

Personally I have never used marijuana, and do not drink, nor will I ever do these things (I pray) but I do think they can be used in an unsinful manner, I just think the effort to do so is more trouble than it's worth and so its better off to stay away from these things all together. At least for me. Besides, cigarettes and marijuana stink, who would ever want to smell like that anyway? :)



Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Νεκτάριος on December 28, 2008, 01:04:13 PM
In medieval times Russia offered the death penalty, even beheading, for those with the sin of this temporary pleasure. They even constituted heresy, being a western way of living which heretics adopted from pagans. They are poisons and using them is devilishly suicidal. Smoking is abominable, a filth in the mouth.

And here all along I'd been taught that St. Vladimir abolished capital punishment in his realm under the influence of Christianity.  I guess serious things like marijuana smoking call for desperate measures. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GiC on December 28, 2008, 01:39:02 PM
In medieval times Russia offered the death penalty, even beheading, for those with the sin of this temporary pleasure. They even constituted heresy, being a western way of living which heretics adopted from pagans. They are poisons and using them is devilishly suicidal. Smoking is abominable, a filth in the mouth.

And here all along I'd been taught that St. Vladimir abolished capital punishment in his realm under the influence of Christianity.  I guess serious things like marijuana smoking call for desperate measures. 

Actually, I think he was talking about tobacco...which is somewhat interesting considering tobacco is native to the Americas and wasn't even introduced to Europe until the 16th century.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on December 28, 2008, 10:17:50 PM
The Lord offers Good News on doers of heathen practices like smoking, etc., the command to separate from heathen (see any apostate bible reference at Matt. 18: 17). Heresy is never pure. It is heresy to contradict Christ. Misbelievers must be rejected, a condition we should all recognize. It is their choice if they smoke herbs. There is no excuse, anyone can learn and do what is right. Orthodox practice stands apart from such abominations, not with them. Smoking is said to be the "ruin of both body and soul." The Great Apostasy is now. We had better watch out, because it is extremely contagious. Tsar Solomon who built the first Temple in Jerusalem said, "a companion of fools shall be destroyed." We become what we immitate.

Forgive, John
So, you ignore my request for sources?
You got any sources to back this up other than "John Alden said so"?

You're not the pope (as if we ever had one), so you don't get to cite your own "authority" as final on any matters dogmatic.  We need you to tell us where you got the "teachings" you present to us.  Which fathers?  Which patristic writings?  Which conciliar decrees?  Don't just refer us to your web site, where you only explain in greater detail what you tell us here, and with little more reference to outside sources than we see from you here.

Otherwise, if you just don't like seeing people smoke, then tell us you just don't like seeing people smoke.  Don't just present your personal likes and dislikes as if they were dogmatic rules that all must follow.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 10, 2009, 04:02:43 PM
There are a lot of lies and propaganda featured here.  Maybe you should ALL do some research before spewing ignorance out of your mouth.  Cannabis is not even comparable to Alcohol.  First of all alcohol is man made, while Cannabis is God made. 

Let's look at Genesis 1:

 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

 12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

So are you, a mere man, saying that what God has given us bad?  Wow!!  You have some ego there to say what God has given us is bad when "God saw that it was good."

As far as legality goes, where in scripture does it specifically say that we are to obey the laws of man?    But even if it is there, why would you allow man to take away from you what God has given you?   how does mankind have the power or authority to make nature illegal?  Would you allow mankind to tell you that you can't have flowers in your front yard or trees?  This is the same thing here.  It is against what God has said here.  If God has given it let no man taketh away.

Also saying that Marijuana/Cannabis is dangerous is an absurd and uneducated statement.  Here's just two quotes from the link below:

"In one of the largest marijuana studies ever conducted, researchers have concluded that regular pot smoking does not cause death, but that branding its use a crime may itself pose a health hazard by exposing users to criminals and violence."

"The researchers tracked the records of more than 65,000 Bay Area members of the Kaiser Permanente health plan for an average of 10 years. Compared to the members who had never used marijuana, they found no increase in deaths among more than 14,000 of the patients who had said they were marijuana users between 1979 and 1985."
Source: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/medical/kaiser2.htm

It's not dangerous, lawmakers are dangerous.  And you trust and allow those that make it illegal pray in schools tell you how to live your life?  That's interesting.  So how do you allow God to fit in when these lawmakers go against God's word every chance they get?
 
Let's drop some more knowledge for the biased.  Maybe it's time to open your mind and do a bit of thinking for yourselves?  I'm not trying to be rude, but some people just let the tv and politicians tell them what to think as is obvious here in this thread.

"How Dangerous is Marijuana
....in comparison to other substances?

Number of American deaths per year that result directly or primarily from the following selected causes nationwide, according to World Almanacs, Life Insurance Actuarial (death) rates, and the last 20 years of U.S. Surgeaon Generals' reports. (figures are for 1988 from the federal government's Bureau of Mortality Statistics and the National Institute on Drug Abuse....
Tobacco                                    340,000 to 425,000Alcohol (not including 50% of all highway deaths          and 65% of all murders)                     150,000Aspirin (Including deliberate overdose)         180 to 1,000+Caffeine (from stress, ulcers and triggering          irregular heartbeats, etc)          1,000 to 10,000'Legal' Drug overdose (Deliberate or accidental)          from legal prescribed or patent medicines          or from mixing with alcohol (eg. Valium with          Alcohol)                           14,000 to 27,000Illicit Drug Overdose (deliberate or accidental)          from all illegal drugs               3,800 to 5,200Theopoline (Pharmaceutical Drug legally prescribed          for asthma)                                      50          Theopoline is also responsible for 6,500          hospital admissions and 1,000 cases of          permanent brain damage per year.Marijuana                                           0  (ZERO)

Marijuana users also have the same or lower incidence of murders and highway deaths and accidents than the general non-marijuana-using population as a whole. Crancer Study, UCLA: U.S. funded ($6 million) First and Second Jamaican studies, 1968 to 1974;Costa Rican Studies, 1980 to 1982; et al.
From "The Emperor Wear No Clothes" by Jack Herer "
Source: http://www.druglibrary.org/think/~jnr/mjdeaths.htm

Do any of you even know the truth about why Cannabis became illegal in the first place?  Did you know it was a very widely used substance (even among Christians and other religions) up until the 1930's?  Did you know it was used for just about everything under the sun? 

You should check this link for some more reliable information, and if you think it's biased do the research yourself and you'll see that it is indeed very accurate information.

http://jackherer.com/chapters.html


Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Orthodox11 on April 10, 2009, 04:09:03 PM
God made a lot of things, and saw that they were good. That does not mean He intended for us to smoke them.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Heorhij on April 10, 2009, 04:09:24 PM
^^Not that I am all that much against pot (not my personal "cup of tea," but much less harmful than tobacco for all I know), but what's wrong with the fact that alcohol is man-made? So is bread...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Heorhij on April 10, 2009, 04:10:51 PM
God made a lot of things, and saw that they were good. That does not mean He intended for us to smoke them.

Yes, but some of them ARE good, so I think Asking79's dichotomy "pot God-made = good - alcohol man made=bad" is not accurate.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 10, 2009, 04:19:07 PM
The Lord offers Good News on doers of heathen practices like smoking, etc., the command to separate from heathen (see any apostate bible reference at Matt. 18: 17). Heresy is never pure. It is heresy to contradict Christ.

Genesis 1:
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Was God wrong just because politicians lie about the herb?  See the politicians are the ones contradicting God and Christ, not users of Cannabis.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
So then we should not obey the lawmakers because as I quoted above from scripture Cannabis is good, as God saw what he created and it was good.  So then, the real heathens are the politicians, and we should seperate from them. 

Misbelievers must be rejected, a condition we should all recognize. It is their choice if they smoke herbs. There is no excuse, anyone can learn and do what is right. Orthodox practice stands apart from such abominations, not with them. Smoking is said to be the "ruin of both body and soul."


Point me to the scriptures that say this is true please.  And then I will also let you know that there other ways of using the herb besides smoking.  Of course smoking is not a good thing, but vaporizing is harmless to your body and so is eating, tinctures, teas, healing hemp oils, etc...  Check out www.phoenixtearsmovie.com about how Cannabis/Hemp Oil has cured Cancer in patients.  Maybe you put too much faith and trust in the politicians and they know that this plant is good, but they are the evil ones taking away what good God has created?  There is evidence of this to be true, where there is no REAL proof that Cannabis is bad in any way at all.  See links I posted in the above comment.

The Great Apostasy is now. We had better watch out, because it is extremely contagious. Tsar Solomon who built the first Temple in Jerusalem said, "a companion of fools shall be destroyed." We become what we immitate.

Forgive, John

And we or shall I say you imitate evil politicians with dirty agendas.  So are you becoming a devil?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 10, 2009, 04:21:29 PM
God made a lot of things, and saw that they were good. That does not mean He intended for us to smoke them.

Yes, but some of them ARE good, so I think Asking79's dichotomy "pot God-made = good - alcohol man made=bad" is not accurate.

You guys are completely missing the point.  I'm not saying that because man made it it's bad, but I am saying that man made laws against God's cretaions are bad. 

And I see you say that doesn't mean he intended for us to smoke them, and that's why I am pointing out that you don't have to smoke, you can eat, vaporize, make teas or other drinks, etc...

Like I said open your eyes, you have been lied to about Cannabis.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on April 10, 2009, 04:33:19 PM
You guys are completely missing the point.  I'm not saying that because man made it it's bad, but I am saying that man made laws against God's cretaions are bad. 

And I see you say that doesn't mean he intended for us to smoke them, and that's why I am pointing out that you don't have to smoke, you can eat, vaporize, make teas or other drinks, etc...

Like I said open your eyes, you have been lied to about Cannabis.
Call me a prophet, but I have a feeling that after you are done raving about Cannabis, we will never hear from you again. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 10, 2009, 04:45:25 PM
Actually I am very interested in joining the Orthodox Church because I thought they were about truth, and not the lies and hypocrisy, I'm starting to feel I was wrong.  All I'm saying is this plant is very beneficial and you can't even tell me you've looked through the stuff I've posted.  My guess is you don't even know why you think it's bad aside from propaganda that is all false.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 10, 2009, 04:46:21 PM
You guys are completely missing the point.  I'm not saying that because man made it it's bad, but I am saying that man made laws against God's cretaions are bad. 

And I see you say that doesn't mean he intended for us to smoke them, and that's why I am pointing out that you don't have to smoke, you can eat, vaporize, make teas or other drinks, etc...

Like I said open your eyes, you have been lied to about Cannabis.
Call me a prophet, but I have a feeling that after you are done raving about Cannabis, we will never hear from you again. Hmmm...

No, prophets aren't as judgemental and condemning as that.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on April 10, 2009, 04:48:17 PM
Actually I am very interested in joining the Orthodox Church because I thought they were about truth, and not the lies and hypocrisy, I'm starting to feel I was wrong.  All I'm saying is this plant is very beneficial and you can't even tell me you've looked through the stuff I've posted.  My guess is you don't even know why you think it's bad aside from propaganda that is all false.
If I were to put all the Pot I've smoking in my life in several garbage bags, I doubt it would all fit. All I am saying is that you seem a little too interested in Cannabis/trying to convince others of its miracles. Why don't you ask some questions about Orthodoxy? That would be a great place to start.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PoorFoolNicholas on April 10, 2009, 04:49:51 PM
You guys are completely missing the point.  I'm not saying that because man made it it's bad, but I am saying that man made laws against God's cretaions are bad. 

And I see you say that doesn't mean he intended for us to smoke them, and that's why I am pointing out that you don't have to smoke, you can eat, vaporize, make teas or other drinks, etc...

Like I said open your eyes, you have been lied to about Cannabis.
Call me a prophet, but I have a feeling that after you are done raving about Cannabis, we will never hear from you again. Hmmm...

No, prophets aren't as judgemental and condemning as that.
You have posted about a handful of times so far, and they have all been about weed. And now you are getting really angry and defensive. It looks like, indeed, my prophesy will be fulfilled...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 10, 2009, 05:23:37 PM
You guys are completely missing the point.  I'm not saying that because man made it it's bad, but I am saying that man made laws against God's cretaions are bad. 

And I see you say that doesn't mean he intended for us to smoke them, and that's why I am pointing out that you don't have to smoke, you can eat, vaporize, make teas or other drinks, etc...

Like I said open your eyes, you have been lied to about Cannabis.
Call me a prophet, but I have a feeling that after you are done raving about Cannabis, we will never hear from you again. Hmmm...

No, prophets aren't as judgemental and condemning as that.
You have posted about a handful of times so far, and they have all been about weed. And now you are getting really angry and defensive. It looks like, indeed, my prophesy will be fulfilled...

I'm not angry, but there you go jumping to conclusions again...
You're good at that.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Heorhij on April 10, 2009, 05:35:25 PM
Actually I am very interested in joining the Orthodox Church because I thought they were about truth, and not the lies and hypocrisy, I'm starting to feel I was wrong.  All I'm saying is this plant is very beneficial and you can't even tell me you've looked through the stuff I've posted.  My guess is you don't even know why you think it's bad aside from propaganda that is all false.

Asking, brother, I am sorry if I offended you. Of course, join the Church. Maybe you are right and cannabis is, indeed, beneficial. I do not want to say that it is not - I honestly just do not know. I tried smoking it once, because my younger relatives convinced me that I should try at least once, "hey, everyone's doing it." I did not like it - honestly, I did not feel euphoric like I was predicted to feel; rather, I simply felt dizzy and uncomfortable. But then, I don't like regular tobacco either. I smoked to "fit in the right crowd" when I was young, and then I quit without any difficulty, in one day. It's all very individual.

The Church, however, is not quite about smoking or herbs or benefit of this or that, it's about the Kingdom of God. Do join us, become the citizen of this Kingdom, it's good! :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: minasoliman on April 11, 2009, 12:55:35 AM
Genesis 1:
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Was God wrong just because politicians lie about the herb?  See the politicians are the ones contradicting God and Christ, not users of Cannabis.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
So then we should not obey the lawmakers because as I quoted above from scripture Cannabis is good, as God saw what he created and it was good.  So then, the real heathens are the politicians, and we should seperate from them. 

I'm not going to say whether smoking marijuana is sinful or not.  I honestly have no other view except I prefer it not be smoked unless it's for medicinal use.  It still causes changes in brain chemistry that we are not sure about long-term effects yet.

Nevertheless, the use of Bible verses to support smoking plants is unfounded.  That makes no sense.  All things God created are good, but they're good for different reasons.

You don't see people eating ivory funnel for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on April 11, 2009, 01:30:53 AM
Yup.  Water hemlock is good in its own way, but you certainly don't want to eat it.  (http://www.gosmiley.com/dead/smily_dead.gif)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: asking79 on April 12, 2009, 11:25:41 AM
Actually I am very interested in joining the Orthodox Church because I thought they were about truth, and not the lies and hypocrisy, I'm starting to feel I was wrong.  All I'm saying is this plant is very beneficial and you can't even tell me you've looked through the stuff I've posted.  My guess is you don't even know why you think it's bad aside from propaganda that is all false.

Asking, brother, I am sorry if I offended you. Of course, join the Church. Maybe you are right and cannabis is, indeed, beneficial. I do not want to say that it is not - I honestly just do not know. I tried smoking it once, because my younger relatives convinced me that I should try at least once, "hey, everyone's doing it." I did not like it - honestly, I did not feel euphoric like I was predicted to feel; rather, I simply felt dizzy and uncomfortable. But then, I don't like regular tobacco either. I smoked to "fit in the right crowd" when I was young, and then I quit without any difficulty, in one day. It's all very individual.

The Church, however, is not quite about smoking or herbs or benefit of this or that, it's about the Kingdom of God. Do join us, become the citizen of this Kingdom, it's good! :)

Thank you.  That is appreciated.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on April 12, 2009, 03:49:13 PM
Maybe we should look at the definition of "sin" (hamartia [ἁμαρτία]) as understood in the Orthodox Church.  This will help us answer the the OP question in a more applicable context (i.e. THC usage in medicinal vs. recreational).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: zoarthegleaner on February 10, 2013, 04:41:45 PM
....definitely better than strong liquor use.....


but thats an un**** opinion...

John



Profanity removed from post  -PtA
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on February 10, 2013, 05:35:20 PM
Because something is in a natural state does not equate with healthier, better or safer necessarily. Example might willow bark as opposed to aspirin, in treating headache. The Egyptians used the former and we the latter. I certainly wouldn't want to use willow bark for a headaches, the side effects are no fun.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on February 10, 2013, 06:17:27 PM
I'll put it this way, getting drunk is a sin we all know that because drunkenness makes it easier for the demons to tempt you and it's a state of mind God did not intend you to be in. Sure you can have a beer and not get drunk, but with marijuana you can't just smoke a little and not feel the effect. Stay in the mind that God wants you to be in and toss the pot, no good will come of it. It's hard enough fighting the demons with a clear mind, why would anyone want to let their guard down? If you want to get a high to escape from this world, go to Church.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 10, 2013, 06:34:31 PM
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

The Iconoclasts were beard shavers, beard shaving was 1 of 5 reasons for the Great Schism between the Pope and Orthodox (the Greeks were shocked that the Latin's started shaving). The Seventh Ecumenical Council declares that Christians are to imitate Christ. No Apostle, nor their successors, shaved. In the Lives of the Saints it is said that shaving is effeminate. If people desire to be unorthodox that is their choice, but they cannot fool everyone into thinking they are Orthodox. My site offers more than enough authentic references for the genuine student on such issues. No smiling or eyelash batting here.

Forgive, John

I seem to remember reading, in a letter excerpted at the beginning of HTM's translation of Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, St. Photius basically saying that shaving was a mere custom and it wasn't an issue to get all in a tiff about. Am I misremembering?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 10, 2013, 06:38:26 PM
I don't see why it would be, to be honest. We don't believe smoking tobacco nor drinking alcohol to be a sin, so why would marijuana be? As much as parents and older folks may deny it, marijuana is actually the least dangerous and unhealthy out of all the aforementioned bad habits. When have you ever seen a man abuse his wife because of marijuana (like we see with alcohol) or become violent or develop cancer (like with tobacco)? The only danger marijuana poses is the potential for getting drawn into heavier drugs, but even then, that same logic could be applied to anything.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 10, 2013, 06:41:13 PM
Legalities come into play, IMO. As well as abusing Christian freedom--all things are permissable, but not all things are profitable; if it makes someone stumble...

[insert slippery slope argument here]
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on February 10, 2013, 06:47:05 PM
I don't see why it would be, to be honest. We don't believe smoking tobacco nor drinking alcohol to be a sin, so why would marijuana be? As much as parents and older folks may deny it, marijuana is actually the least dangerous and unhealthy out of all the aforementioned bad habits. When have you ever seen a man abuse his wife because of marijuana (like we see with alcohol) or become violent or develop cancer (like with tobacco)? The only danger marijuana poses is the potential for getting drawn into heavier drugs, but even then, that same logic could be applied to anything.

In my area people have been killed or injured in road traffic collisions, and other youngsters affected by marijuana induced psychosis. Driving while under the influence of marijuana is as bad as driving under the influence of alcohol.

Being drunk, smoking tobacco or partaking of recreational drugs were always heavily discouraged by Greeks around me especially as sinful.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 10, 2013, 06:50:28 PM
I would rather buy some good beer than weed. But, whenever offered, I don't turn it down either. Although it doesn't do much for me, really.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: biro on February 10, 2013, 06:52:39 PM
Bob Marley died from cancer and he was only in his late 30s.

Since pot isn't legal in some places, it's not being studied by the top labs and universities. So we don't have a lot of peer-reviewed studies done by people with no vested interest in its sales. We just have anecdotes from people who like to get high.

Of course people aren't going to talk a lot about the times they got high, fell asleep behind the wheel, wrecked the car and got arrested. Why? Because that stuff's embarrassing.

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 10, 2013, 11:19:16 PM
In my area people have been killed or injured in road traffic collisions, and other youngsters affected by marijuana induced psychosis. Driving while under the influence of marijuana is as bad as driving under the influence of alcohol.

Maybe so; I wouldn't deny that. However, in non-driving circumstances, I would say that being under the influence of marijuana is much preferable to being drunk. As I earlier stated, when is the last time you ever heard of a man abusing his wife because he was under marijuana? Never; because it relaxes you. Whereas, I could think of several instances where alcoholics have abused their wives while drunk or become violent. Admittedly, smoking marijuana excessively could be a problem, but as long as you aren't smoking it on the level of Bob Marley, I don't see many health risks.

Quote
Being drunk, smoking tobacco or partaking of recreational drugs were always heavily discouraged by Greeks around me especially as sinful.

Meh. Greeks have also told me before that Odysseus was a prophet from God, that lamb doesn't count as meat when fasting and that God wants us to speak Greek; don't believe everything a couple of Greek weirdos tell you.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 11, 2013, 12:02:17 AM
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

The Iconoclasts were beard shavers, beard shaving was 1 of 5 reasons for the Great Schism between the Pope and Orthodox (the Greeks were shocked that the Latin's started shaving). The Seventh Ecumenical Council declares that Christians are to imitate Christ. No Apostle, nor their successors, shaved. In the Lives of the Saints it is said that shaving is effeminate. If people desire to be unorthodox that is their choice, but they cannot fool everyone into thinking they are Orthodox. My site offers more than enough authentic references for the genuine student on such issues. No smiling or eyelash batting here.

Forgive, John

I seem to remember reading, in a letter excerpted at the beginning of HTM's translation of Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, St. Photius basically saying that shaving was a mere custom and it wasn't an issue to get all in a tiff about. Am I misremembering?
Maybe you're misremembering that Mr. Alden submitted that post over four years ago. ;)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: pmpn8rGPT on February 11, 2013, 01:01:35 AM
Meh. Greeks have also told me before that Odysseus was a prophet from God, that lamb doesn't count as meat when fasting and that God wants us to speak Greek; don't believe everything a couple of Greek weirdos tell you.
What?  I'm Greek and aside from the speaking Greek part I've never heard any of this before.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on February 11, 2013, 03:12:21 AM
Bob Marley died from cancer and he was only in his late 30s.

Since pot isn't legal in some places, it's not being studied by the top labs and universities. So we don't have a lot of peer-reviewed studies done by people with no vested interest in its sales. We just have anecdotes from people who like to get high.

Of course people aren't going to talk a lot about the times they got high, fell asleep behind the wheel, wrecked the car and got arrested. Why? Because that stuff's embarrassing.




There is no evidence that Bob Marley's cancer was in any way related to his marijuana smoking. The cancer began in his toe after sustaining an injury playing soccer. It then spread throughout his body. I don't mention this to defend marijuana use. I just want to make sure that people don't assume Bob's cancer was related to marijuana use.


Selam
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 11, 2013, 04:45:33 AM
Yeah, but you say that about shaving too. ::)

The Iconoclasts were beard shavers, beard shaving was 1 of 5 reasons for the Great Schism between the Pope and Orthodox (the Greeks were shocked that the Latin's started shaving). The Seventh Ecumenical Council declares that Christians are to imitate Christ. No Apostle, nor their successors, shaved. In the Lives of the Saints it is said that shaving is effeminate. If people desire to be unorthodox that is their choice, but they cannot fool everyone into thinking they are Orthodox. My site offers more than enough authentic references for the genuine student on such issues. No smiling or eyelash batting here.

Forgive, John

I seem to remember reading, in a letter excerpted at the beginning of HTM's translation of Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit, St. Photius basically saying that shaving was a mere custom and it wasn't an issue to get all in a tiff about. Am I misremembering?
Maybe you're misremembering that Mr. Alden submitted that post over four years ago. ;)

Nah, I saw that; I also looked at the last time he was online before I posted it, I know he hasn't been on for a while. I meant the question to be a general one, I just quoted him to provide some context :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 11, 2013, 06:19:36 AM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on February 11, 2013, 08:21:48 AM
In my area people have been killed or injured in road traffic collisions, and other youngsters affected by marijuana induced psychosis. Driving while under the influence of marijuana is as bad as driving under the influence of alcohol.

Maybe so; I wouldn't deny that. However, in non-driving circumstances, I would say that being under the influence of marijuana is much preferable to being drunk. As I earlier stated, when is the last time you ever heard of a man abusing his wife because he was under marijuana? Never; because it relaxes you. Whereas, I could think of several instances where alcoholics have abused their wives while drunk or become violent. Admittedly, smoking marijuana excessively could be a problem, but as long as you aren't smoking it on the level of Bob Marley, I don't see many health risks.

Quote
Being drunk, smoking tobacco or partaking of recreational drugs were always heavily discouraged by Greeks around me especially as sinful.

Meh. Greeks have also told me before that Odysseus was a prophet from God, that lamb doesn't count as meat when fasting and that God wants us to speak Greek; don't believe everything a couple of Greek weirdos tell you.

The supposed weirdo's were clergy, monks and nuns of sober disposition. As for no one abusing a partner while on 'weed' as you put it, West Midlands and Staffordshire Police might disagree with you but then what would they know? As a retired health professional I would suggest our expertise on the subject is coloured by bias, and the dismissal of it's effect in road accidents suggests you might need to think again. The effect on developing adolescent minds is not something to be casually waved away. Nor is it's supposed analgesic benefits to be overstated, as is all too often stated by some users. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 11, 2013, 08:23:46 AM

Meh. Greeks have also told me before that Odysseus was a prophet from God

LOL. I've heard someone tell that Plato was a prophet, or at least inspired, but Odysseus?  :)

Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.

Why? ???
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shiny on February 11, 2013, 08:27:22 AM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
And the people who have to use it for medical reasons?

Marijuana has never had an effect on me when I tried it. Sure I didn't have a big fat blunt or a vaporizer, but I had a few bowls any given time I did it.

Maybe it "mellowed" me out more but I'm mellow as it is...

In fact I was disappointed it wasnt more potent. I've heard people say that they hear music completely different when high. Not me, sadly.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Pericles on February 11, 2013, 09:42:47 AM
And the people who have to use it for medical reasons?
If its obtained legally for medical purposes, I cant see it being a sin. If its obtained in a state where the law clearly forbids it, it would be sinful but perhaps only because of breaking the law. As for it being intrinsically sinful, I cant see how anymore than drinking alcohol is sinful. Drinking to excess is sinful, so smoking to excess might be.

All things in moderation.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 11, 2013, 09:59:41 AM
All things in moderation.

^
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 11, 2013, 12:25:57 PM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: vamrat on February 11, 2013, 12:36:07 PM
All things in moderation.

^

I disagree with this "all things in moderation" fad.  I try not to get moderated on my posts...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 11, 2013, 12:48:06 PM
And the people who have to use it for medical reasons?
  If its obtained in a state where the law clearly forbids it, it would be sinful

 Poor Americans.... :)

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on February 11, 2013, 01:27:05 PM
All things in moderation.

^

I disagree with this "all things in moderation" fad.  I try not to get moderated on my posts...


Well done.  ;D



Selam
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: WPM on February 11, 2013, 01:31:53 PM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?

Depends on what type of individual you are.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 11, 2013, 10:22:08 PM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
And the people who have to use it for medical reasons?
What about them?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 11, 2013, 10:24:37 PM
And the people who have to use it for medical reasons?
If its obtained legally for medical purposes, I cant see it being a sin.
Since when did sin become dictated by law?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 11, 2013, 10:26:18 PM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
Care to elaborate?
In the same way being a drunkard is a sin.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 11, 2013, 10:55:52 PM
This is not specifically mentioned in scripture, however the NT does repeatedly mandate sobriety.

Nḗphō – properly, to be sober (not drunk), not intoxicated; (figuratively) free from illusion, i.e. from the intoxicating influences of sin (like the impact of selfish passion, greed, etc.). Forms in the NT: νηφε νήφε νῆφε νηφοντες νήφοντες νηφωμεν νήφωμεν νηψατε νήψατε

Nḗphō ("be sober, unintoxicated") refers to having presence of mind (clear judgment), enabling someone to be temperate (self-controlled). 3525 /nḗphō ("uninfluenced by intoxicants") means to have "one's wits (faculties) about them," which is the opposite of being irrational.

Cf. μέθυσος, μεθύσῃ, μέθυσον, in later Greek also of two terminations (μέθυ, see μέθη), drunken, intoxicated: 1 Corinthians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 6:10. (Phryn.: μέθυσος ἀνήρ, οὐκ ἐρεῖς, ἀλλά μεθυστικός. γυναῖκα δέ ἐρεῖς μέθυσον καί μεθυσην (Aristophanes); but Menander, Plutarch, Lucian, Sextus Empiricus, others (the Sept., Proverbs 23:21, etc.; Sir. 19:1, etc.) use it also of men; cf. Lob. ad Phryn., p. 151.)

μεθύσκω: passive, present μεθύσκομαι; 1 aorist ἐμεθυσθην; (from μέθυ, see μέθη); from Herodotus down; the Sept. for רִוָּה, הִרְוָה (Kal רָוָה), and שִׁכֵּר, to intoxicate, make drunk; passive (cf. Winers Grammar, 252 (237)) become intoxicated: Luke 12:45; John 2:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:7 (Buttmann, 62 (54)); οἴνῳ (Winer's Grammar, 217 (203)), Ephesians 5:18; ἐκ τοῦ οἴνου, Revelation 17:2 (see ἐκ, II. 5); τοῦ νεκταρος, Plato, symp., p. 203 b.; Lucian, dial. deor. 6, 3; ἀπό τίνος, Sir. 1:16 Sir. 35:13.

-From http://biblesuite.com/greek/

If we are concerned with what kind of "sobriety" God wishes from us, and how we should go about avoiding "intoxication," we will commit such matters to prayer and consult our spiritual fathers; if we are not concerned, nothing will suffice to guide us (internet discussion least of all).


Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 11, 2013, 11:26:06 PM
All things in moderation.
Murder of innocents?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on February 11, 2013, 11:35:57 PM
Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco said 'there was what the Church taught and everything else was your opinion or my opinion'. So the answer must come from what the Church teaches and not a interminable Internet opinion poll.

At another level the conservative author and columnist Peter Hitchens (brother of the late Christopher Hitchens) said that the issue of the rights and wrongs of marijuana use was a philosophical rather than a health issue. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 12, 2013, 01:51:33 AM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
Care to elaborate?
In the same way being a drunkard is a sin.
That isn't an elaboration. How is being a drunkard a sin?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 02:37:57 AM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
Care to elaborate?
In the same way being a drunkard is a sin.
That isn't an elaboration. How is being a drunkard a sin?
Ephesians 5:18, 1 Corinthians 6:10, Galatians 5:21, Proverbs 31:6-7, Romans 13:13, 1 Peter 5:8, Isaiah 28:7/5:22/5:11, and a lot more.  Although, I'm not one to toss out verses this way, but anyone who has even conducted a cursory study of the Scriptures knows this.  I'm assuming you are asking for those who have not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 12, 2013, 02:47:43 AM
I'm having trouble accepting that being a drunkard is considered a sin by the Church--at least it doesn't seem like it is really being enforced. I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon. And this begs the question, why is being high off marijuana seen as worse than being drunk? Every drunk I've encountered in my life became violent and mean when they were drunk; every pot-head I've met only becomes chill and relaxed when they're high.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 04:46:20 AM
I'm having trouble accepting that being a drunkard is considered a sin by the Church--

As are all of those who are drunkards, but there it is scattered throughout all of scripture.  As I type this I am enjoying a drab of Glenmorangie, but I will not become drunk.  If you smoke a joint, will you become high?  Pretty much and probably after the first hit.

--at least it doesn't seem like it is really being enforced.

In what way would you like to see it enforced?  Even so, it does not mean it is not a sin.

I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.

Are they getting drunk or enjoying fellowship with a glass of wine?  There is a difference between drinking and getting drunk.  How many people do you know who smoke pot who don't get high?  

And this begs the question, why is being high off marijuana seen as worse than being drunk?

It isn’t.  It’s the same…only much, much faster.

Every drunk I've encountered in my life became violent and mean when they were drunk;

Really?  I have met those, but I have also met a lot of different types of drunks.  Keep in mind, drunk and alcoholic are not the same thing.  Anyone can get drunk.  Not everyone is an alcoholic, but both are wrong.

every pot-head I've met only becomes chill and relaxed when they're high.

Again, there are a lot of different types out there.  Another thing, think long term rather than short term.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 12, 2013, 05:41:37 AM

Okay Kerdy, you've shattered me on almost every point; however, a few things still come to mind that I disagree with you about. Firstly, there are NO scientifically-proven long term affects to smoking marijuana; there hasn't been a SINGLE recorded death that ever occured because of marijuana. While admittedly, you can drink alcohol without getting drunk, whereas you cannot smoke marijuana without getting high, I still believe it is fair to mention that being high from marijuana does not really have any harmful affects, whereas drunkenness does. It is true that different people act differently when drunk--some violent, some chill, some jolly, etc.--but that is NOT the case with marijuana. By its very nature, marijuana relaxes people. The Bible--contrary to popular belief--praises drunkenness because it "makes men jolly" and relieves the pain when someone dies, and drunkenness is MUCH more dangerous than being high from marijuana. So, if drunkenness is okay in certain circumstances, why wouldn't marijuana be as well? At least the latter is nearly harmless as it does not make people violent, whereas the former has more potential for danger and violence. Likewise, while it may be possible for you to drink alcohol without becoming drunk, it is also an unescapable fact that you are still harming your body--a temple of the Holy Spirit--through your consumption of alcohol, whereas, marijuana--even if it makes you high--does not have any observable negative affects on the body.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 06:16:13 AM
Firstly, there are NO scientifically-proven long term affects to smoking marijuana;

I have not looked into this so for the sake of time (because research takes time) I will give you this one.  Perhaps someone else has the information handy.  I am sure there are some studies out there.  However, if you google “long term study of harmful effects of marijuana” I think you will be surprised at some of the information you find.  Start with “Long-term effects of cannabis” on Wiki and go from there.

there hasn't been a SINGLE recorded death that ever occured because of marijuana.

You may want to look into this again.  I understand where you are coming from, but it’s the wrong approach.

While admittedly, you can drink alcohol without getting drunk, whereas you cannot smoke marijuana without getting high, I still believe it is fair to mention that being high from marijuana does not really have any harmful affects, whereas drunkenness does.

Again, you may want to look into this a little more.  Some people can smoke it for long periods of time with few problems.  Others, not so much.  And let’s not forget the fact it is at LEAST as harmful as tobacco.  Getting drunk and getting high has the same chance of getting someone hurt or killed. 

It is true that different people act differently when drunk--some violent, some chill, some jolly, etc.--but that is NOT the case with marijuana.
 

When you have been around as many different types of people who are high as I have been, get back to me and let me know if you feel the same way.

By its very nature, marijuana relaxes people.

No, it gets them high.  What a person thinks is happening and what is really happening is not always the same thing.  A lot of drunks think they are sexy.  Sober people who are watching realize how stupid they are, just like people who aren’t high when they watch people who get plastered from MJ.

The Bible--contrary to popular belief--praises drunkenness because it "makes men jolly" and relieves the pain when someone dies,

Look at the verses I supplied.  There are many, many more if you are interested.  I hope you are because your statement is incorrect.

drunkenness is MUCH more dangerous than being high from marijuana.

Do they both not alter your state of mind and ability to function?  Yes, so how do you conceive one is more dangerous than the other?  Both are dangerous, equally so.

So, if drunkenness is okay in certain circumstances,

It isn’t.

why wouldn't marijuana be as well?
It isn’t.

At least the latter is nearly harmless as it does not make people violent,

Again, experience is life’s greatest teacher.  My experience in this area far surpasses yours and those with more than mine can corroborate.

whereas the former has more potential for danger and violence.

Depends on the person.

Likewise, while it may be possible for you to drink alcohol without becoming drunk, it is also an unescapable fact that you are still harming your body--a temple of the Holy Spirit--through your consumption of alcohol, whereas, marijuana--even if it makes you high--does not have any observable negative affects on the body.
I can debate this point, but I prefer to focus on what is not immediately observable.  Question:  Do  you think God prefers you to have control over your faculties to make proper and Christian choices or open to suggestion from Satan?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 12, 2013, 06:21:36 AM
Someone who consumes any sort of intoxicants on a regular basis clearly shows he has no respect for himself (on a basic human level, putting aside such lofty concepts as 'creature of God', 'temple of the Holy Spirit', etc.). Sooner or later, he loses the respect of others as well. A pot-head, a drunkard, a junkie - they command at best pity, never respect. If you see that in the end it's a debasement of human nature (animals don't do it) and a disgrace, why would anyone in their right mind want to start on that path? Self-loathing, temptation, poor judgement, sheer idiocy?  
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 06:35:20 AM
Pot has a rancid smell, a simply disgusting aroma.  I can only imagine what it tastes like.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on February 12, 2013, 07:22:22 AM

Okay Kerdy, you've shattered me on almost every point; however, a few things still come to mind that I disagree with you about. Firstly, there are NO scientifically-proven long term affects to smoking marijuana; there hasn't been a SINGLE recorded death that ever occured because of marijuana. While admittedly, you can drink alcohol without getting drunk, whereas you cannot smoke marijuana without getting high, I still believe it is fair to mention that being high from marijuana does not really have any harmful affects, whereas drunkenness does. It is true that different people act differently when drunk--some violent, some chill, some jolly, etc.--but that is NOT the case with marijuana. By its very nature, marijuana relaxes people. The Bible--contrary to popular belief--praises drunkenness because it "makes men jolly" and relieves the pain when someone dies, and drunkenness is MUCH more dangerous than being high from marijuana. So, if drunkenness is okay in certain circumstances, why wouldn't marijuana be as well? At least the latter is nearly harmless as it does not make people violent, whereas the former has more potential for danger and violence. Likewise, while it may be possible for you to drink alcohol without becoming drunk, it is also an unescapable fact that you are still harming your body--a temple of the Holy Spirit--through your consumption of alcohol, whereas, marijuana--even if it makes you high--does not have any observable negative affects on the body.

Marijuana according to America's National Institute for Drug Addiction is the most frequent intoxicant linked to deaths in road traffic collisions, it is addictive, and has a dampening effect on cognitive function. I've seen too many who are not just chilled by it but who frankly under function in day to day tasks. The panic attacks and effects on some relating to schizophrenia are pretty scarey. Certainly smoking any substance carries risks akin to all those seen with tobacco usage.

As for drunkards, St John of Kronstadt found that vice damaging and battled against it.

So why do so many advocate it's use? I suggest because they are addicted and want the rest of us to accept its use, to normalise it.

Living near so many people of Jamacian origin I have put up with the truly awful 'pong' throughout much of the neighbourhood. And as with tobacco and drunkenness I completely fail to see the attraction or the arguments in favour of any or all of these pastimes, seeing only a blinding bias on the part of their advocates
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 08:12:20 AM
Marijuana is, no doubt, a potentially dangerous drug. However, it is not physically addictive and it has several proven medicinal effects. My father-in-law was prescribed marijuana for neuropathy. He insists that it is the only thing that helps with the pain. It helps with side effects of chemotherapy, such as nausea. My friend's brother with HIV has had a prescription for marijuana for years. I used to have a puff (literally a puff, or two at the most) very rarely, but I found it helped calm my often anxious mind, and helped me to focus and relax... things that have never come easily for me. And I still happen to find the smell rather pleasant (each to his own, I guess).

So "You bet it is" as an answer to the question in the OP doesn't cut it, in my opinion. There are many variables and conditions to consider.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 08:22:28 AM
I find the “medicinal” argument for marijuana in the same category the “Little Suzy’s at age 9 and needs an abortion” argument.  The .04% of the actual use is shouted out for the justification of all.  Abortion is convenient and people want to smoke pot and get high.  If we take all the people who smoke pot and compare those who actually use it for “legitimate” medical use, I have a feeling the percentage will be much, much less than .04%.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 08:33:04 AM
At least the latter is nearly harmless as it does not make people violent,

Again, experience is life’s greatest teacher.  My experience in this area far surpasses yours and those with more than mine can corroborate.

C'mon, quit using the age card all of the time when dealing with James. I am almost as old as you are, Kerdy, and I can attest that what James says is largely true. I am not saying that some people don't get stupid, or even occasionally violent, when under the influence of marijuana. But generally, it makes people more inhibited, not less, more relaxed, not more aggressive, more peaceful and happy, not more violent and angry. Alcohol is the cause of far more domestic violence! Go to a party where everybody is smoking and NOT drinking, and chances are they'll be giggling to a movie with the lights out. Go to a party where everyone is drinking and NOT smoking, and everyone will be much more raucous, loud, and uninhibited. I'm not trying to encourage the use of marijuana, here. But let's not be disingenuous merely for the sake of argument.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 08:39:17 AM
I find the “medicinal” argument for marijuana in the same category the “Little Suzy’s at age 9 and needs an abortion” argument.  The .04% of the actual use is shouted out for the justification of all.  Abortion is convenient and people want to smoke pot and get high.  If we take all the people who smoke pot and compare those who actually use it for “legitimate” medical use, I have a feeling the percentage will be much, much less than .04%.

All I am saying is there are many variables to consider. Should the small percentage of people who actually benefit from the prescribed use of marijuana when dealing with illness, for instance, not do so because others want to use it as a recreational drug? Is alcohol sinful, then, because most people use it to get drunk? If you want to be consistent, then perhaps you'd better give up sipping the scotch!  :police:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 08:45:09 AM
C'mon, quit using the age card all of the time when dealing with James

It isn’t the age card.  If anything, it’s the experience card.  Unfortunately, experience usually comes with age.  I’ll ask you the same thing I ask my kids.  Would you believe an adult or a fellow student who knows as much about life as you do?

I am almost as old as you are, Kerdy, and I can attest that what James says is largely true

Again, age has nothing to do with it and James is largely wrong.

I am not saying that some people don't get stupid, or even occasionally violent, when under the influence of marijuana.

I am glad to hear this, but some is a generous word.

But generally, it makes people more inhibited, not less, more relaxed, not more aggressive, more peaceful and happy, not more violent and angry.

It makes people high.  The same as several other drugs.  And if it has true medicinal purpose, why did the advocates lose their case with the Supreme Court recently about having it rescheduled?

Alcohol is the cause of far more domestic violence!

And here I thought it was just mean people.  To use alcohol to justify MJ usage is a faulty approach.

Go to a party where everybody is smoking and NOT drinking, and chances are they'll be giggling to a movie with the lights out.

And doing other drugs, having sex, and a list of other things they shouldn’t be doing.

Go to a party where everyone is drinking and NOT smoking, and everyone will be much more raucous, loud, and uninhibited.

Maybe, I have seen the opposite of what you have described, but again, faulty approach.

I'm not trying to encourage the use of marijuana, here. But let's not be disingenuous merely for the sake of argument.

Again, glad to hear this.  I am not being disingenuous.  I am being honest. 


Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 08:55:59 AM
I find the “medicinal” argument for marijuana in the same category the “Little Suzy’s at age 9 and needs an abortion” argument.  The .04% of the actual use is shouted out for the justification of all.  Abortion is convenient and people want to smoke pot and get high.  If we take all the people who smoke pot and compare those who actually use it for “legitimate” medical use, I have a feeling the percentage will be much, much less than .04%.

All I am saying is there are many variables to consider. Should the small percentage of people who actually benefit from the prescribed use of marijuana when dealing with illness, for instance, not do so because others want to use it as a recreational drug? Is alcohol sinful, then, because most people use it to get drunk? If you want to be consistent, then perhaps you'd better give up sipping the scotch!  :police:

Sipping scotch doesn’t get me drunk within a few minutes.  In fact, I haven't been drunk in a very, very long time.  Taking a hit from a joint does get you high very fast.  If the option to keep MJ off the streets and out of the hands of stupid people was to make alcohol illegal, I would support that and happily give up my scotch.  Additionally, alcohol is out of your system in a few hours.  Pot is in your system for weeks.

I don’t see as many considerations as you.  Honestly, I could care less if grandma, who no longer drives and isn’t being supported by every entitlement program known to mankind, finds out she has a serious ailment or possibly even terminal, tokes a little weed now and again.  In fact, I have ignored seeing things such as this in the past, situation dependant.  The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 10:16:31 AM
The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 10:31:14 AM
Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  :)

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 12, 2013, 10:31:29 AM
Kerdy admitted he hasn't ever smoked marijuana. That makes discussing with him differences between alcohol and marijuana intoxication pretty pointless.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 10:44:20 AM
Kerdy admitted he hasn't ever smoked marijuana. That makes discussing with him differences between alcohol and marijuana intoxication pretty pointless.

True... except that he speaks with authority on the subject nonetheless!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 12, 2013, 11:23:23 AM
Kerdy has no idea what he's talking about.


I can debate this point, but I prefer to focus on what is not immediately observable.  Question:  Do  you think God prefers you to have control over your faculties to make proper and Christian choices or open to suggestion from Satan?


I am often less able and likely to commit certain sins when I'm stoned/drunk or a combination of the two.

Taking a hit from a joint does get you high very fast.  

How do you know? You've admitted that you've never smoked marijuana.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 12, 2013, 11:40:44 AM
Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  :)


If minimizing aggressiveness is the Golden Criterion of what one should approve or avoid perhaps we should all get lobotomies (minimizes aggressive behavior) and never attend parish council meetings or speak of theology (has sometimes been associated with aggressive behavior).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 12, 2013, 11:46:05 AM
Quote
Is smoking marijuana a sin?


You bet it is.
Care to elaborate?
In the same way being a drunkard is a sin.
That isn't an elaboration. How is being a drunkard a sin?
Although it is not necessary to know how or why something is a sin to accept that it is, perhaps being a drunkard affects one's ability to love well and pray well?

It may also be understood in terms of contrasts presented, as mentioned before (sober/intoxicated):
This is not specifically mentioned in scripture, however the NT does repeatedly mandate sobriety.

Nḗphō – properly, to be sober (not drunk), not intoxicated; (figuratively) free from illusion, i.e. from the intoxicating influences of sin (like the impact of selfish passion, greed, etc.). Forms in the NT: νηφε νήφε νῆφε νηφοντες νήφοντες νηφωμεν νήφωμεν νηψατε νήψατε

Nḗphō ("be sober, unintoxicated") refers to having presence of mind (clear judgment), enabling someone to be temperate (self-controlled). 3525 /nḗphō ("uninfluenced by intoxicants") means to have "one's wits (faculties) about them," which is the opposite of being irrational.

Cf. μέθυσος, μεθύσῃ, μέθυσον, in later Greek also of two terminations (μέθυ, see μέθη), drunken, intoxicated: 1 Corinthians 5:11; 1 Corinthians 6:10. (Phryn.: μέθυσος ἀνήρ, οὐκ ἐρεῖς, ἀλλά μεθυστικός. γυναῖκα δέ ἐρεῖς μέθυσον καί μεθυσην (Aristophanes); but Menander, Plutarch, Lucian, Sextus Empiricus, others (the Sept., Proverbs 23:21, etc.; Sir. 19:1, etc.) use it also of men; cf. Lob. ad Phryn., p. 151.)

μεθύσκω: passive, present μεθύσκομαι; 1 aorist ἐμεθυσθην; (from μέθυ, see μέθη); from Herodotus down; the Sept. for רִוָּה, הִרְוָה (Kal רָוָה), and שִׁכֵּר, to intoxicate, make drunk; passive (cf. Winers Grammar, 252 (237)) become intoxicated: Luke 12:45; John 2:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:7 (Buttmann, 62 (54)); οἴνῳ (Winer's Grammar, 217 (203)), Ephesians 5:18; ἐκ τοῦ οἴνου, Revelation 17:2 (see ἐκ, II. 5); τοῦ νεκταρος, Plato, symp., p. 203 b.; Lucian, dial. deor. 6, 3; ἀπό τίνος, Sir. 1:16 Sir. 35:13.

-From http://biblesuite.com/greek/

If we are concerned with what kind of "sobriety" God wishes from us, and how we should go about avoiding "intoxication," we will commit such matters to prayer and consult our spiritual fathers; if we are not concerned, nothing will suffice to guide us (internet discussion least of all).


Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 12, 2013, 11:55:26 AM
The Bible--contrary to popular belief--praises drunkenness because it "makes men jolly" and relieves the pain when someone dies
The latter is true (Prov 31:6-7), but the former is said of wine, not drunkenness. Drunkenness/intoxication is never praised in the Bible.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 12, 2013, 12:04:13 PM
I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

As far as coffee hour, I heard one fellow teaching heresy during coffee hour and another taking the Lord's name in vain; not sure we should suppose seeing someone doing something during coffee hour therefore makes it ok.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 12:18:56 PM
Quote
If minimizing aggressiveness is the Golden Criterion of what one should approve or avoid perhaps we should all get lobotomies (minimizes aggressive behavior) and never speak of theology (has sometimes been associated with aggressive behavior).

As I've mentioned, I am not at all encouraging the use of marijuana. Rather, I have shared these findings as they are directly relevant to much of the recent discussion in this thread. And I am still trying to ascertain why some people believe alcohol consumption is not inherently sinful, whereas marijuana use is...?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 12, 2013, 12:56:27 PM
It seems to me the real issue is sobriety and intoxication as these are made very clear as virtues and vices respectively.

If someone can convince themselves that they are genuinely concerning themselves to avoid intoxication and retain sobriety of mind when lighting up a joint I am happy for them. Not sure I can personally believe them(!) but that is for them, under the counsel of their spiritual father, to decide, not me.

For my part I simply abstain from smoking altogether, though I do have an occasional small glass of wine (a small glass based on personal reaction).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on February 12, 2013, 01:04:14 PM
Kerdy has no idea what he's talking about.


I can debate this point, but I prefer to focus on what is not immediately observable.  Question:  Do  you think God prefers you to have control over your faculties to make proper and Christian choices or open to suggestion from Satan?


I am often less able and likely to commit certain sins when I'm stoned/drunk or a combination of the two.

Taking a hit from a joint does get you high very fast.  

How do you know? You've admitted that you've never smoked marijuana.

Based on this floored logic any childless midwife or medical practitioner's opinion on childbirth is worthless. Many of us have repeatedly observed and treated people who are intoxicated with a variety of substances, while others in recreational and domestic settings see the processes in action. Indeed sometimes I feel observers may have a better appreciation of what is taking place. Still regardless of anything to the contrary users know best, or at least they would have us believe so.

I've never smoked but I have examined the throats of smokers, seeing up close the trauma caused. Yet I have the same smokers telling me that after years it hasn't done them any harm? Sorry, although I have smoked I beg to differ and the unseen cellular damage is decidedly not a joke.

Still, their choice at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 12, 2013, 05:28:06 PM
Although I do not smoke pot except on random and quite rare occasions-maybe I did it about 10 times last year I have friends that smoke it regularly. I failed to see any downside to it really. They have been able to keep a stable job, didn't get into accidents it doesn't make them mean or unable to interact normally with other people. So only based on that I don't see much of a problem.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 12, 2013, 05:42:08 PM
Pot has a rancid smell, a simply disgusting aroma.  I can only imagine what it tastes like.
U should give it a try some time. At least u'd have a faint idea of what u r talking about.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Iconodule on February 12, 2013, 05:52:48 PM
From some extreme potheads (meaning, people who smoke it once a day or more) I've occasionally observed slight paranoia and irritability. Among less frequent users I have not noticed any such effects.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 12, 2013, 05:54:34 PM
I've noticed family members willing to risk having their kids taken away from them rather than give up a bit of a good time. That's not exactly a health issue though.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 12, 2013, 06:01:04 PM
I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

They are still harming their bodies though; even if they are not getting intoxicated. Alcohol has been proven to damage your kidney as well as your pancreas, whereas, marijuana HAS NO PROVEN health hazards or harmful affects on your body. Every study on the affects of marijuana has been inconclusive at best, whereas scientists and doctors could tell you all sorts of harmful affects that alcohol and tobacco has on the body. Kerdy earlier said that marijuana is "at least" as bad as tobacco; but that's very inaccurate. Tobacco has been strongly linked to cancer and respitory defects, whereas marijuana hasn't been concusively linked to anything harmful at all. I think that harming your temple of the Holy Spirit within God's Church through alcohol--even if you aren't getting intoxicated--is a lot worse than harmlessly smoking a blunt to relax. Likewise, Kerdy was misleading earlier. He stated that marijuana stays in your system for weeks at a time, whereas the affects of alcohol wear off sooner. That's not entirely accurate. While technically marijuana may stay in your system for a longer time, the affect of being "high" from it only lasts 1-3 hours, whereas most drunks I've met stay drunk almost all night.

I'm not supporting marijuana or anything, and I appreciate what you and Kerdy are trying to do, but I'm only pointing out that you guys are blatantly wrong in many of your "facts" about marijuana.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: biro on February 12, 2013, 06:27:57 PM
James, you get your ideas from anecdotes. Again, where are the laboratories, universities and scientific journals and peer-reviewed research at least in the U.S. that are studying this? I'll tell you: there aren't any. Because it's illegal except for in limited amounts as a painkiller, in a few states, the only stories you'll hear are from potheads and people who make money growing the drug.

Oh yeah, a lot of people die in battles between dealers over turf. Cops die at the hands of growers sometimes. I don't think you'll care too much about that, but it happens. Some people care.

Has it ever occurred to you that pot production isn't the cleanest thing in the world? Growers say things because they want to keep making money growing it. Not because they really care that some elderly person has glaucoma or some AIDS patient has the shakes. A lot of people are making tones of money from sales of pot. They spread stories to make you keep being interested in buying it. Even if you don't buy it, if you believe their stories, you're part of the issue.

Plenty of people get drunk and smoke pot at the same time. Or they do other drugs plus pot. Ever thought about the multiplicative effect? Or what happens when you use larger and larger amounts? Do you think that when people die in car crashes, none of them ever had pot in their system? Zero? Really? Come on.

THC is a carcinogen. A lot of people die in this country from cancer. One of the most common kinds is lung cancer. Again, since pot is not legal in most places, a lot of sufferers won't come forward and admit that they got it from smoking a lot of pot.

The other posters are not wrong in their facts. You are, JamesR, because you don't have any facts. Stop getting your ideas from "High Times" or kids in school.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: biro on February 12, 2013, 06:48:08 PM
Speaking of facts, here are some. Not that I think it'll change your mind.

http://cumberlink.com/news/health/ask-a-doctor-the-health-effects-of-marijuana/article_195d3b9a-6975-11e2-b4c6-0019bb2963f4.html

http://allafrica.com/stories/201301300413.html

From the second article:

Quote
Medical literature doesn't suggest marijuana use does wonders in a range of ailments. Smoke from cannabis contains thousands of chemical compounds--and the tar is chemically similar to what is found in cigarette smoke, including the same carcinogens.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 12, 2013, 06:58:22 PM
In Buddhism, there are five basic precepts (pañca-sila) that even lay followers are supposed to adhere to. The fifth goes like this: I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. (In Orthodoxy, that would be ἀμέλεια or ἀκηδία - indifference to one's own salvation.)

The Buddha explains the point of the fifth precept like this:

Quote
"Furthermore, abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking intoxicants. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the fifth great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the eighth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, & appealing; to welfare & to happiness."

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html)

Now if a pagan, with the light of natural reason alone, gets this, what excuse does a Christian have for not getting it?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 07:19:08 PM
The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 

You can't justify one wrong by pointing to another wrong.  It simply doesn't work.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 07:21:14 PM
Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  :)


You can't justify one wrong but point at another wrong.  It just doesn't work.  It also reveals the inability to support the view on its own merit.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 07:22:59 PM
Kerdy admitted he hasn't ever smoked marijuana. That makes discussing with him differences between alcohol and marijuana intoxication pretty pointless.


I have never murdered anyone, raped anyone, robbed a bank, gotten a DUI and a laundry list of other things.  What were you saying about pointless?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 07:24:38 PM
Kerdy has no idea what he's talking about.


I can debate this point, but I prefer to focus on what is not immediately observable.  Question:  Do  you think God prefers you to have control over your faculties to make proper and Christian choices or open to suggestion from Satan?


I am often less able and likely to commit certain sins when I'm stoned/drunk or a combination of the two.

Taking a hit from a joint does get you high very fast.  

How do you know? You've admitted that you've never smoked marijuana.
Really... :-\
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 12, 2013, 07:32:56 PM
I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

They are still harming their bodies though; even if they are not getting intoxicated. Alcohol has been proven to damage your kidney as well as your pancreas, whereas, marijuana HAS NO PROVEN health hazards or harmful affects on your body. Every study on the affects of marijuana has been inconclusive at best, whereas scientists and doctors could tell you all sorts of harmful affects that alcohol and tobacco has on the body. Kerdy earlier said that marijuana is "at least" as bad as tobacco; but that's very inaccurate. Tobacco has been strongly linked to cancer and respitory defects, whereas marijuana hasn't been concusively linked to anything harmful at all. I think that harming your temple of the Holy Spirit within God's Church through alcohol--even if you aren't getting intoxicated--is a lot worse than harmlessly smoking a blunt to relax. Likewise, Kerdy was misleading earlier. He stated that marijuana stays in your system for weeks at a time, whereas the affects of alcohol wear off sooner. That's not entirely accurate. While technically marijuana may stay in your system for a longer time, the affect of being "high" from it only lasts 1-3 hours, whereas most drunks I've met stay drunk almost all night.

I'm not supporting marijuana or anything, and I appreciate what you and Kerdy are trying to do, but I'm only pointing out that you guys are blatantly wrong in many of your "facts" about marijuana.
No, we are not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Byzantine2008 on February 12, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
Answer to op's question.

Yes 8)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 12, 2013, 07:54:19 PM
It depends what you mean by both "sin" and"smoking"
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shiny on February 12, 2013, 08:26:20 PM
THC is a carcinogen? I really had no idea.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 10:34:44 PM
Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  :)


You can't justify one wrong but point at another wrong.  It just doesn't work.  It also reveals the inability to support the view on its own merit.

I posted these research findings because I thought you'd find them of interest, Kerdy, since you told JamesR (matter-of-factly) that he was wrong about alcohol contributing to violent behaviour more than marijuana does. I posted evidence to the contrary. When you're wrong about something, you're wrong. No big deal. Scientific findings are always interesting when people are making questionable fact statements.



Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 12, 2013, 10:35:53 PM
The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 

You can't justify one wrong by pointing to another wrong.  It simply doesn't work.

How about just answering the question instead?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 13, 2013, 05:19:43 AM
Pot has a rancid smell, a simply disgusting aroma.  I can only imagine what it tastes like.
U should give it a try some time. At least u'd have a faint idea of what u r talking about.

I have to agree with this one. Tobacco is tastier.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 06:15:00 AM
The problem is when her 16 year old grandson is visiting and takes a little while she is “relaxed” and decides to drive to the 7-11 to get some snacks because he now has the munchies and runs over someone on the sidewalk.

Yes, this is problematic indeed! But how about when her 16 year old grandson gets into Grandma's scotch (which she is "sipping" but not getting "drunk" on) and runs someone over driving to a party? Alcohol makes people intoxicated. Marijuana makes people intoxicated. Why is one sinful and the other not? 

You can't justify one wrong by pointing to another wrong.  It simply doesn't work.

How about just answering the question instead?

I answered this question several posts back.  In fact, I believe it was before you asked the question.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 06:15:29 AM
Drugs of Abuse and the Elicitation of Human Aggressive Behavior, Peter N.S. Hoaken, Sherry H. Stewart
Department of Psychology, University of Western Ontario, London ON, Canada N6A 5C2
Department of Psychology and Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
http://www.ukcia.org/research/AgressiveBehavior.pdf

“While cannabis has historically been excoriated for being a social “menace” and for inducing homicidal rages (Julien, 1992), more contemporary research indicates cannabis-intoxicated individuals are in fact less likely to act aggressively.” (p.10)

“…The effects of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) (the primary psychoactive component of cannabis) on aggressive behavior have been studied at length, with the preponderance of studies focusing on the acute effects of THC intoxication. The results of these studies suggest that while low doses of THC may slightly increase aggression, moderate and high doses can suppress or even eliminate aggressive behavior (Myerscough & Taylor, 1986; Taylor, 1976).” (p.10)

As for alcohol and its links to violence:

“Conventional wisdom tells us that individuals who are under the influence of alcohol will act aggressively. This is a situation in which conventional wisdom is likely correct—crime studies consistently implicate alcohol intoxication as one of the most significant factors in violent behavior. In large-scale review of 26 studies, involving 11 countries, it was determined that 62% of offenders convicted of a violent crime had been consuming alcohol shortly before committing the crime in question (Murdoch, Pihl, & Ross, 1990). Alcohol was more than twice as likely to be a contributing factor to violent crimes than nonviolent crimes, and in those studies that measured level of alcohol, violence was associated with heavy drinking. Another recent study, conducted with homicidal offenders in Finland, indicated a relationship between severity of alcohol use and violence.” (p.3)

“Alcohol consumption has also been associated with a wide range of types of violence, including but not limited to sexual aggression (Parks & Zetes-Zanatta, 1999; Seto & Barbaree, 1995; Testa, 2002), family and marital violence (Caetano, Schafer, Fals-Stewart, O’Farrell, & Miller, 2003; Leonard & Jacob, 1988; Leonard & Senchack, 1996), child abuse (Kaufman-Kantor & Straus, 1990), and suicide (Brent, Perper, & Allman, 1987). While crime studies of this sort are purely correlational and thus open to interpretation, manipulative controlled laboratory studies have confirmed alcohol’s role in aggressive behavior. There are now several relevant meta-analyses of experimental studies of the alcohol–aggression relationship, all of them concluding that even moderate doses of alcohol increase a participant’s likelihood of acting aggressively (Bushman, 1993, 1996; Bushman & Cooper, 1990; Hull & Bond, 1986; Ito, Miller, & Pollock, 1996; Steele & Southwick, 1985).” (p.4)

Emphasis using bold font all mine.  :)


You can't justify one wrong but point at another wrong.  It just doesn't work.  It also reveals the inability to support the view on its own merit.

I posted these research findings because I thought you'd find them of interest, Kerdy, since you told JamesR (matter-of-factly) that he was wrong about alcohol contributing to violent behaviour more than marijuana does. I posted evidence to the contrary. When you're wrong about something, you're wrong. No big deal. Scientific findings are always interesting when people are making questionable fact statements.





You are still missing the point. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 13, 2013, 07:49:04 AM
You are still missing the point. 

Pointless...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 08:20:37 AM
You are still missing the point.  

Pointless...

If you feel that way, of course it is, but this is not an either/or debate.  Attempting to justify one wrong behavior by pointing at another wrong behavior has never, does not now, and never will work.  Also, you are attempting to marginalize one while magnifying another, which also does not work.  You say you simply want to point out alcohol makes more people aggressive than MJ, but if MJ makes a percentage of people more aggressive than they normally are, the point you are attempting to make is flawed.  If for no other reason, I can point out a percentage of people are made less aggressive and embarrassingly more friendly than normal when drunk. (This guy)

In one breath you say you do not advocate for MJ consumption, yet in the next you debate in its favor against something you consider worse.  This is no different than saying, “I don’t advocate for spousal abuse, but at least it isn’t aggravated sexual violence, because that is much worse.”  Then continue to focus on ASV as if SA is acceptable, but both are deplorable.  So, if you think alcohol consumption is wrong, just say so.  If you think MJ consumption is wrong, same thing.  At least then we will have a place to start and move forward from rather than argue for arguments sake.

Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

“But, I have heard with some people, the more they smoke the more they need to smoke to feel its effects. “

This, to a limited degree, is true; however, in the same way the more alcohol a person consumes the more they need to feel its effects.  If you remember, this does not alter the real physical effects of alcohol, only what they need to FEEL intoxicated.  They are still intoxicated (but have developed into what is known as a functioning alcoholic), just like the pot heads consuming weed, only at a much, much slower rate.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Pericles on February 13, 2013, 08:47:49 AM
THC is a carcinogen? I really had no idea.
THC inhibits the enzyme necessary to activate some of the carcinogens found in tobacco smoke, THC therefore has protective effects against carcinogens.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 13, 2013, 08:49:57 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Pericles on February 13, 2013, 08:54:57 AM
Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  
What a load of old crock! Spoken like a person that has no experience on the matter and has no idea what they're waffling on about.  If you have one pint you feel the effect of alcohol, you can have two or three further pionts, feel the effect and get to the place people call 'merry' finally if you drink more you become intoxicated. It's precisely the same with cannabis, feeling the effect 'high' is one thing but intoxication is quite another, also THC the principal psychoactive constituent of the cannabis plant, has an
extremely low toxicity.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 08:58:27 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Cherry pick much, and out of context?  Just where does it say "they were drunk" rather than "they drunk", as in they drank?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
I find it extremely interesting to see people attack the use of tobacco and the consumption of alcohol and at the very same time support the consumption (for recreational purposes) of marijuana, which does both things simultaneously and at an increased rate.  I believe this fits the definition of hypocrisy. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 13, 2013, 09:12:26 AM
I believe this fits the definition of hypocrisy. 

I think hypocrisy is sayin alcohol is OK and marijuana is not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 09:18:31 AM
I believe this fits the definition of hypocrisy. 

I think hypocrisy is sayin alcohol is OK and marijuana is not.

No, hypocrisy would be saying getting drunk is ok and getting high is not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: xariskai on February 13, 2013, 05:38:15 PM
I see old Russian guys at my Church cracking open wine and champaign bottles at coffee hour which is barely at noon.
Nothing wrong with that if they are not getting intoxicated as far as I can tell.

They are still harming their bodies though; even if they are not getting intoxicated. Alcohol has been proven to damage your kidney as well as your pancreas, whereas, marijuana HAS NO PROVEN health hazards or harmful affects on your body. Every study on the affects of marijuana has been inconclusive at best, whereas scientists and doctors could tell you all sorts of harmful affects that alcohol and tobacco has on the body. Kerdy earlier said that marijuana is "at least" as bad as tobacco; but that's very inaccurate. Tobacco has been strongly linked to cancer and respitory defects, whereas marijuana hasn't been concusively linked to anything harmful at all. I think that harming your temple of the Holy Spirit within God's Church through alcohol--even if you aren't getting intoxicated--is a lot worse than harmlessly smoking a blunt to relax. Likewise, Kerdy was misleading earlier. He stated that marijuana stays in your system for weeks at a time, whereas the affects of alcohol wear off sooner. That's not entirely accurate. While technically marijuana may stay in your system for a longer time, the affect of being "high" from it only lasts 1-3 hours, whereas most drunks I've met stay drunk almost all night.

I'm not supporting marijuana or anything, and I appreciate what you and Kerdy are trying to do, but I'm only pointing out that you guys are blatantly wrong in many of your "facts" about marijuana.
I think you are confusing someone else's posts with mine as I haven't made statements on these points.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 13, 2013, 05:40:25 PM
Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  
What a load of old crock! Spoken like a person that has no experience on the matter and has no idea what they're waffling on about.  If you have one pint you feel the effect of alcohol, you can have two or three further pionts, feel the effect and get to the place people call 'merry' finally if you drink more you become intoxicated. It's precisely the same with cannabis, feeling the effect 'high' is one thing but intoxication is quite another, also THC the principal psychoactive constituent of the cannabis plant, has an
extremely low toxicity.
Well said, sir.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 13, 2013, 05:47:40 PM
Also, to address, what is, perhaps, the underlying assumption of the original question, that we need an official answer from the church/clergy or whatever such authority for pretty much everything. I am pretty sure this is not the case. There are experiences -even if quite dumb in themselves-and which the church formally condemns,  condemnations the faithful quasi-universally ignore- that are still to be had in their time "the sins of my youth etc" . And because these things are so universal, heroically resisting them might be admirable, but it often makes one unable to interact with the world at an "average" or 'normal" level. One outgrows many things.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 13, 2013, 06:05:29 PM
One outgrows many things.

Or so one likes to think, ad excusandas excusationes in peccatis.

"Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so..."

"If any of you put a stumbling-block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if..."

"But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling-block to the weak."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 13, 2013, 06:09:26 PM
Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...
And also:
"...thou hast know my sitting down, and my rising up.
 Thou hast understood my thoughts afar off: my path and my line thou hast searched out.
 4 And thou hast foreseen all my ways..."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 13, 2013, 06:23:23 PM
Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...

Προσπαθῶ - μόνως ἐὰν ἐσὺ τὸν ἑαυτόν σου βλάπτεις, τοὐλάχιστον πρόσεχε μὴ βλάπτεις κανέναν ἄλλον.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: stavros_388 on February 13, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
If you feel that way, of course it is, but this is not an either/or debate. Attempting to justify one wrong behavior by pointing at another wrong behavior has never, does not now, and never will work. Also, you are attempting to marginalize one while magnifying another, which also does not work.  You say you simply want to point out alcohol makes more people aggressive than MJ, but if MJ makes a percentage of people more aggressive than they normally are, the point you are attempting to make is flawed. In one breath you say you do not advocate for MJ consumption, yet in the next you debate in its favor against something you consider worse.

I find it rather odd that you keep insisting that I am doing something I have insisted that I am not doing. Please stop accusing me of motives that I have clearly denied having, and that I have nowhere here expressed. For the record, I did not post research findings for the purpose of convincing anyone that marijuana is good and alcohol is bad, or that one is better than the other. I posted them to demonstrate to you that your "experiences" and observations do not align with the facts. And because the studies were pertinent to the direction this discussion was taking at the time. That's all.

When you are pontificating about something in a way that clearly goes against the evidence, don't be surprised if someone posts evidence to demonstrate your error. Claiming that you know some people who are mellower when they are drunk does not disprove the fact that marijuana has been shown to make people less aggressive and alcohol has been demonstrated to make people more aggressive, overall. Just read the research, if it matters to you. Your personal experiences are fine, but you cannot define reality based only on your own (often seemingly anomalous) experiences.

Some people have low tolerance to alcohol and one beer is enough to get them buzzed. Some can drink three or four without too much of an effect. Some drinks are very potent, and some are not. Some marijuana is very strong and some is very mild. Some people have a high tolerance to THC. Some do not. So you're right, it isn't black-and-white indeed. Considering that you have no personal experience with marijuana, and that you seem to base your argument on nothing more than your observations of a few people you've seen smoke up, your claim that marijuana is inherently sinful because of the rate and potency of its effect on the nervous system is a little unconvincing, to say the least.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 13, 2013, 06:34:08 PM
I like smoking weed occasionally, but I haven't in some time.  Mostly because I don't care that much about it and I have other priorities and....... because I lost my connect and it's too much work to find a new one.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 13, 2013, 06:39:36 PM
Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...

Προσπαθῶ - μόνως ἐὰν ἐσὺ τὸν ἑαυτόν σου βλάπτεις, τοὐλάχιστον πρόσεχε μὴ βλάπτεις κανέναν ἄλλον.
It's funny you  use Greek on the English section of the forum. I know you know it, but  it's just out of place.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 13, 2013, 06:43:43 PM
Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν
Physician, heal thyself ...

Προσπαθῶ - μόνως ἐὰν ἐσὺ τὸν ἑαυτόν σου βλάπτεις, τοὐλάχιστον πρόσεχε μὴ βλάπτεις κανέναν ἄλλον.
It's funny you  use Greek on the English section of the forum. I know you know it, but  it's just out of place.

When addressed in a language, I try my best to answer in the same.

Lest I should break any rules, here's a translation:

"I am trying - only if you harm yourself, at least be careful not to harm anyone else."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 13, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Looks more like a display of erudition . I only used Greek there in an ironic way since you used Latin just before.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Byzantine2008 on February 13, 2013, 06:59:56 PM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 13, 2013, 07:03:34 PM
Looks more like a display of erudition . I only used Greek there in an ironic way since you used Latin just before.

Prostite i blagoslovite. ;)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: minasoliman on February 13, 2013, 07:58:02 PM
From some extreme potheads (meaning, people who smoke it once a day or more) I've occasionally observed slight paranoia and irritability. Among less frequent users I have not noticed any such effects.
You probably haven't realized but this was your 4999th post...;)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 08:51:40 PM
If you feel that way, of course it is, but this is not an either/or debate. Attempting to justify one wrong behavior by pointing at another wrong behavior has never, does not now, and never will work. Also, you are attempting to marginalize one while magnifying another, which also does not work.  You say you simply want to point out alcohol makes more people aggressive than MJ, but if MJ makes a percentage of people more aggressive than they normally are, the point you are attempting to make is flawed. In one breath you say you do not advocate for MJ consumption, yet in the next you debate in its favor against something you consider worse.

I find it rather odd that you keep insisting that I am doing something I have insisted that I am not doing. Please stop accusing me of motives that I have clearly denied having, and that I have nowhere here expressed. For the record, I did not post research findings for the purpose of convincing anyone that marijuana is good and alcohol is bad, or that one is better than the other. I posted them to demonstrate to you that your "experiences" and observations do not align with the facts. And because the studies were pertinent to the direction this discussion was taking at the time. That's all.

When you are pontificating about something in a way that clearly goes against the evidence, don't be surprised if someone posts evidence to demonstrate your error. Claiming that you know some people who are mellower when they are drunk does not disprove the fact that marijuana has been shown to make people less aggressive and alcohol has been demonstrated to make people more aggressive, overall. Just read the research, if it matters to you. Your personal experiences are fine, but you cannot define reality based only on your own (often seemingly anomalous) experiences.

Some people have low tolerance to alcohol and one beer is enough to get them buzzed. Some can drink three or four without too much of an effect. Some drinks are very potent, and some are not. Some marijuana is very strong and some is very mild. Some people have a high tolerance to THC. Some do not. So you're right, it isn't black-and-white indeed. Considering that you have no personal experience with marijuana, and that you seem to base your argument on nothing more than your observations of a few people you've seen smoke up, your claim that marijuana is inherently sinful because of the rate and potency of its effect on the nervous system is a little unconvincing, to say the least.

Um, ok.  Running in circles makes me dizzy so I'm gonna stop now, especially when you read only the parts you want to read and ignore everything else.  You can keep going, but I am going to stop.  

(Bolded portion:  It's probably the thing I have most experience with in my occupation.  Just sayin...)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 08:55:14 PM
What amazes me is the blatant admission of so many people here to breaking a sound and just law, for no other reason than they disagree with that law and based off of their own desires they do what they want.  This clearly is NOT a Christian action, in any way, any form, under any delusion, but I watch as these people squirm to justify their actions as if I am the one they need to convince they did not do wrong.  Boggles the mind and saddens the soul.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 13, 2013, 09:15:41 PM
You just need to get out more Kerdy. Your sense oh outrage is really funny. Lol
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 09:22:52 PM
Marijuana alters a person’s state of mind in the same way drunkenness, anger, jealousy, and other sins alter a person’s state of mind.  This is why it is wrong.  This is why it is sinful.  Getting high in no way glorifies God.  What it does do is open a person up to Satan and his influence.  It places a wedge between that person and God.  It becomes a crutch, a vice.  People can argue, use sarcasm, or whatever tool they have to attempt to qualify their sin as acceptable, but they need to understand they are wrong and in the end will be held accountable.  That is just the way it is.  I don’t really care if you like it or how much you want it to be different.  I didn’t make the rules.  I just do my best to follow them.  Perhaps you folks should do the same.

And breaking man’s law which does not contradict Gods law is another wrong, another sin, not that some of you seem to care. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Byzantine2008 on February 13, 2013, 09:37:22 PM
Marijuana alters a person’s state of mind in the same way drunkenness, anger, jealousy, and other sins alter a person’s state of mind.  This is why it is wrong.  This is why it is sinful.  Getting high in no way glorifies God.  What it does do is open a person up to Satan and his influence.  It places a wedge between that person and God.  It becomes a crutch, a vice.  People can argue, use sarcasm, or whatever tool they have to attempt to qualify their sin as acceptable, but they need to understand they are wrong and in the end will be held accountable.  That is just the way it is.  I don’t really care if you like it or how much you want it to be different.  I didn’t make the rules.  I just do my best to follow them.  Perhaps you folks should do the same.

And breaking man’s law which does not contradict Gods law is another wrong, another sin, not that some of you seem to care. 


As a former user of this drug I totally agree with your sentiments.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 13, 2013, 09:42:36 PM
What amazes me is the blatant admission of so many people here to breaking a sound and just law, for no other reason than they disagree with that law and based off of their own desires they do what they want.  This clearly is NOT a Christian action, in any way, any form, under any delusion, but I watch as these people squirm to justify their actions as if I am the one they need to convince they did not do wrong.  Boggles the mind and saddens the soul.
aww do you need some comforting??
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: choy on February 13, 2013, 09:45:38 PM
Marijuana alters a person’s state of mind in the same way drunkenness, anger, jealousy, and other sins alter a person’s state of mind.  This is why it is wrong.  This is why it is sinful.  Getting high in no way glorifies God.  What it does do is open a person up to Satan and his influence.  It places a wedge between that person and God.  It becomes a crutch, a vice.  People can argue, use sarcasm, or whatever tool they have to attempt to qualify their sin as acceptable, but they need to understand they are wrong and in the end will be held accountable.  That is just the way it is.  I don’t really care if you like it or how much you want it to be different.  I didn’t make the rules.  I just do my best to follow them.  Perhaps you folks should do the same.

And breaking man’s law which does not contradict Gods law is another wrong, another sin, not that some of you seem to care. 


I always believe that intent and purpose sets what is sin and what is not.  Are there medical applications of this drug?  Yes.  Obviously that is not covered by what is sin.  But I agree with what you say about its recreational purpose.  Even though we are allowed to drink wine, it does not mean we should drink 'til we're drunk.  But if there is a good intention and a good purpose to the use, then surely one can use.

I speak as one who has ADD and frequently and regularly take something that "alters my state of mind".  But it is in a very positive way, not to get high.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 13, 2013, 09:50:04 PM
Arizona court OKs marijuana DUI cases (http://triblive.com/usworld/nation/3480768-74/court-marijuana-dui#axzz2KhVEGmyt)

An appeals court has issued a ruling that upholds the right of authorities to prosecute pot smokers in Arizona for driving under the influence even when there is no evidence that they are actually high...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 13, 2013, 10:12:19 PM
Arizona court OKs marijuana DUI cases (http://triblive.com/usworld/nation/3480768-74/court-marijuana-dui#axzz2KhVEGmyt)

An appeals court has issued a ruling that upholds the right of authorities to prosecute pot smokers in Arizona for driving under the influence even when there is no evidence that they are actually high...

I miss living in Arizona.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 14, 2013, 04:58:14 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t. 

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?

St. John says so:

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 05:40:15 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t. 

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?

St. John says so:

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
You seem to be reading what you want it to say.  For instance, if I say, "Mike drunk from the stream", would that mean clean fresh water inebriated you?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 14, 2013, 05:56:50 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t. 

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?

St. John says so:

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
You seem to be reading what you want it to say.  For instance, if I say, "Mike drunk from the stream", would that mean clean fresh water inebriated you?

Use your brains:

What would be the reason to serve better alcohol first, and then - the worse one?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 06:21:32 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t. 

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?

St. John says so:

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
You seem to be reading what you want it to say.  For instance, if I say, "Mike drunk from the stream", would that mean clean fresh water inebriated you?

Use your brains:

What would be the reason to serve better alcohol first, and then - the worse one?
Use your brains.  Taste.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 14, 2013, 06:37:22 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t. 

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?

St. John says so:

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
You seem to be reading what you want it to say.  For instance, if I say, "Mike drunk from the stream", would that mean clean fresh water inebriated you?

Use your brains:

What would be the reason to serve better alcohol first, and then - the worse one?
Use your brains.  Taste.

How?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 06:49:00 AM
Is being a drunkard a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming Marijuana a sin?  Yes!
Is consuming alcohol a sin?  No.

“Why do you feel this way, Kerdy?“

Well, I am glad you asked.  As I have stated before, one can consume alcohol without getting drunk.  I have never met anyone who can consume MJ and not get high, even if they feel like they haven’t.  

You assume intoxication effects are always sinful. Wedding in Cana proves otherwise. Christ made wine for drunk people and made them more drunk.

Now there is conjecture.....
How do you know people were drunk?

St. John says so:

"When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
You seem to be reading what you want it to say.  For instance, if I say, "Mike drunk from the stream", would that mean clean fresh water inebriated you?

Use your brains:

What would be the reason to serve better alcohol first, and then - the worse one?
Use your brains.  Taste.

How?

I take it you do not drink much wine.  Bad wine gets you just as drunk as good wine so saving the bad wine till the end to get toasted makes little sense.  In fact, those who have the intent of getting plastered rarely do so at the expense of a $50+ bottle of wine.  They tend to get the cheaper stuff and save the good wine for a time when they can enjoy it.  Also, after you have had a glass or two of wine (good wine), a cheaper wine does not taste as bad.  The wine plays a trick on your taste buds.  It is a money saver, not a drunk program.  This is why when attending a wine tasting, very little is wine is used.

Of course, this is not to say no one at this party didn't get drunk, but you seem to be attempting to say this was the only purpose of the wine and it's Jesus' fault they did, which is complete silliness.

But now, if possible, could we stop the rabbit hole distraction of alcohol and focus on the problems if marijuana?

ADDITION:  If they were so intoxicated, how did they know it was good wine and make a comment about saving it until the end?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 14, 2013, 07:06:50 AM
ADDITION:  If they were so intoxicated, how did they know it was good wine and make a comment about saving it until the end?

You know, some people don't drink on weddings: grooms, drivers, organisers, headwaiters...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 07:34:04 AM
ADDITION:  If they were so intoxicated, how did they know it was good wine and make a comment about saving it until the end?

You know, some people don't drink on weddings: grooms, drivers, organisers, headwaiters...

I fail to see your point. (If they weren’t drinking, how would they know good from bad wine?)

But since we are still focused on alcohol rather than marijuana in the effort to redirect the discussion, I would like to address the alcohol makes people more aggressive comment.  We will take this wedding.

Three days of partying, drinking wine, and according to some, getting lit up like a Christmas tree (and placing the blame on our Lord).  So, why was Jesus not talking about the dangers of drunkenness and anger?  I say it is because these things were not happening, but let’s say they were, just for fun.  Why was Jesus not in the center of the Octagon refereeing the fights?  I can see it in my mind’s eye.

Jesus:
In this corner, wearing the white robe, is Steve.  Weighing in at 130 pounds, 5 feet 4 inches tall and no professional fights.  Steve is rumored to have a really mean left jab.

In the other corner, also wearing a white robe, but a little more dingy than Steve’s, is Ted.  Weighing in at 137 pounds, 5 feet 5 inches and sporting a one inch reach advantage, also with no professional fights, Ted has been accused of being a Samaritan heretic and goggling at Steve’s wife, although for the life of me I can’t imagine why.

Gentlemen, let’s have a clean fight.  No hitting below the sash.  Follow my commands, and commandments, at all times.  Now, to your corners.  
Are you ready?  *Steve shakes head*
Are you ready?  *Ted shakes head*

LET’S GET IT ON!!!!!

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 14, 2013, 08:10:39 AM
What amazes me is the blatant admission of so many people here to breaking a sound and just law, for no other reason than they disagree with that law and based off of their own desires they do what they want.  This clearly is NOT a Christian action, in any way, any form, under any delusion, but I watch as these people squirm to justify their actions as if I am the one they need to convince they did not do wrong.  Boggles the mind and saddens the soul.

I broke no law when I smoked pot.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 08:18:52 AM
In fact, those who have the intent of getting plastered rarely do so at the expense of a $50+ bottle of wine.  They tend to get the cheaper stuff and save the good wine for a time when they can enjoy it.  

To elaborate, I will speak of personal experience.  Since my Scotch consumption has been mentioned, I will use this.

My favorite Scotch is a Speyside.  Of these, my favorite right now is Glenlivet.  For my regular, “I think I will have a drab while reading” or what have you, I partake of the 12 year.  When I want to sit back and really deliberate on the nuances of the flavor, I prefer to enjoy their 18 year.  In all actuality, I don’t prefer one over the other as they are different; however, at almost triple the cost, I am not going to consume the 18 year while watching, reading or some other activity in which I cannot truly enjoy what is in my glass.  And neither do I consume for intoxicating purposes.  The amount and the time spent to finish what I pour I doubt I would register more than a 0.02% BAC on an intoxilyizer, on a bad day.

Were my intention to become inebriated and vomit on myself while someone takes pictures for Facebook, I would not spend $30+ dollars on an agreeable Scotch, I would spend $10 on cheap Bourbon.  I also wouldn’t spend money on an illegal/controlled substance where one inhalation gets me high. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 08:19:16 AM
What amazes me is the blatant admission of so many people here to breaking a sound and just law, for no other reason than they disagree with that law and based off of their own desires they do what they want.  This clearly is NOT a Christian action, in any way, any form, under any delusion, but I watch as these people squirm to justify their actions as if I am the one they need to convince they did not do wrong.  Boggles the mind and saddens the soul.

I broke no law when I smoked pot.

If you smoked it in the USA you did.  But, for the sake of clarification, are you speaking of man or God's laws?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 14, 2013, 08:23:33 AM
What amazes me is the blatant admission of so many people here to breaking a sound and just law, for no other reason than they disagree with that law and based off of their own desires they do what they want.  This clearly is NOT a Christian action, in any way, any form, under any delusion, but I watch as these people squirm to justify their actions as if I am the one they need to convince they did not do wrong.  Boggles the mind and saddens the soul.

I broke no law when I smoked pot.

If you smoked it in the USA you did.  But, for the sake of clarification, are you speaking of man or God's laws?

Man's laws. But I'm also quite unconvinced that I broke God's laws.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 08:27:08 AM
What amazes me is the blatant admission of so many people here to breaking a sound and just law, for no other reason than they disagree with that law and based off of their own desires they do what they want.  This clearly is NOT a Christian action, in any way, any form, under any delusion, but I watch as these people squirm to justify their actions as if I am the one they need to convince they did not do wrong.  Boggles the mind and saddens the soul.

I broke no law when I smoked pot.

If you smoked it in the USA you did.  But, for the sake of clarification, are you speaking of man or God's laws?

Man's laws. But I'm also quite unconvinced that I broke God's laws.
USA or abroad?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 14, 2013, 08:27:51 AM
The Netherlands.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shiny on February 14, 2013, 08:28:25 AM
Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed, others for medical reasons.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
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Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 08:30:21 AM
The Netherlands.

I don't know about their laws,so you very well may not have broken man's law.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 08:35:16 AM
Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shiny on February 14, 2013, 08:36:31 AM
Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 14, 2013, 08:39:03 AM
Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 14, 2013, 08:58:27 AM
But for real, if anybody has a legit contact in maryland, let me know.   :angel:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Pericles on February 15, 2013, 09:01:14 AM
I also wouldn’t spend money on an illegal/controlled substance where one inhalation gets me high.
Thats certainly not cannabis then, it sounds more like Crack!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: zoarthegleaner on February 19, 2013, 11:31:16 AM
Was posted...."Unfortunately, if you're Orthodox and openly claim to be so and openly smoke weed you will bring a bad name to the faith for the sake of your indulgence in a bodily pleasure which is illegal in our country and unacceptable in our culture. If I'm in a place where drinking alcohol is offensive I don't do it because it is not necessary for the faith.

I don't think the issue of bringing a bad name is relevant to the discussion.

our Lord let his disciples to pick grains of wheat to satisfy immediate pleasure of hunger on the Sabbath day, talk about bringing a bad name on yourself...

John
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 19, 2013, 11:44:20 AM
to satisfy immediate pleasure of hunger

 ???

Hunger = necessity. Raw grains of wheat are not that pleasurable, nor in themselves a scandal or addictive...

It probably takes some heavy marijuana smoking to envisage Our Lord and his disciples passing through a field of cannabis and allowing them to indulge in a good smoke, so as to satisfy a craving or give scandal to the righteous Pharisee. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 19, 2013, 11:46:05 AM
is this the right forum for posting pics of our bowls and glass pipes, etc? 

Let's post pics of our pieces! 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cavaradossi on February 19, 2013, 11:47:00 AM
Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law. 

A law which the federal government had no business passing. I'm not really for smoking marijuana, but the federal laws concerning marijuana have the most ridiculous constitutional justifications.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 19, 2013, 12:09:25 PM
is this the right forum for posting pics of our bowls and glass pipes, etc? 

I imagine it must be on the same board where one can post pictures of one's sex toys, BDSM equipment and other such paraphernalia.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 19, 2013, 12:14:34 PM
is this the right forum for posting pics of our bowls and glass pipes, etc? 

I imagine it must be on the same board where one can post pictures of one's sex toys, BDSM equipment and other such paraphernalia.
so...yes?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 19, 2013, 12:17:33 PM
is this the right forum for posting pics of our bowls and glass pipes, etc? 

I imagine it must be on the same board where one can post pictures of one's sex toys, BDSM equipment and other such paraphernalia.
so...yes?

I haven't seen any thus far - so probably not.  ;D
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Android_Rewster on February 19, 2013, 01:46:30 PM
 I could go smoke some pot right now, legally, and I would feel nothing pressure on my conscience. I live in Washington, and I know the effects Marijuana has on me(personally, first hand). For some people I know, they get violent and dangerous.

 For me? I get hungry and tired and relaxed.

 Sure, I'm not 100% self-aware, but that doesn't mean I'm completely depraved. Some people shouldn't smoke it, some people it wouldn't hurt.

 I don't smoke it, by the way. :p Mainly for the permanent brain damage it causes... >_>
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on February 19, 2013, 02:18:55 PM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 19, 2013, 02:53:50 PM
I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

In Romania, the "ethnobotanical" crap was (probably still is) legal. It caused a massive epidemic of addiction, all sorts of health hazards and even deaths, especially among teenagers.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: biro on February 19, 2013, 07:46:12 PM
Quote from: FormerReformer

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.

 :o

Wow.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on February 19, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
Quote from: FormerReformer

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.

 :o

Wow.
That caught my eye too. Suffice it to say. Long live Calhoun! ;)
Although I think recreational drugs should be legal. I mean most people under a certain age do them anyways.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 20, 2013, 08:32:56 AM
is this the right forum for posting pics of our bowls and glass pipes, etc? 

Let's post pics of our pieces! 
No.

No.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 20, 2013, 08:33:44 AM
Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law. 

A law which the federal government had no business passing. I'm not really for smoking marijuana, but the federal laws concerning marijuana have the most ridiculous constitutional justifications.
Which, sadly or not, is of no relevance.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 20, 2013, 08:36:40 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 23, 2013, 04:26:24 PM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 23, 2013, 04:32:56 PM
The only reason I could think of it being a sin is because Christians are told to obey the civil authorities and the civil authorities have decided to keep marijuana illegal.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 23, 2013, 04:38:48 PM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 23, 2013, 04:41:45 PM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Yeah, God forbid people have even the slightest bit of fun in life.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 23, 2013, 04:43:01 PM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Good thing that you can't get drunk of marijuana.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 23, 2013, 04:44:09 PM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
That statement makes no sense. Wine is an intoxicant, yet we use it in the Eucharist.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 23, 2013, 04:49:00 PM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on February 23, 2013, 04:54:12 PM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on February 23, 2013, 04:56:22 PM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???

Of course not, but that's a horrible argument. Many people drink alcohol while driving too. I wouldn't smoke or drink anything at all at any time in my life (except the Eucharist), but I'm just saying, out of the three bad habits, I think that marijuana is probably the least harmful.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on February 23, 2013, 04:58:58 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f65/nokturnal1976/mr-yuk.gif)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 23, 2013, 05:02:46 PM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cantor Krishnich on February 23, 2013, 05:04:30 PM
Whether or not it leads to violent behavior, intoxication from marijuana is still an intoxication and therefore should be avoided by anyone of the Christian faith. Drunkenness and Intoxication are the same things.

How dare someone compare alcohol to the Most-Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, its the Blood of Christ. Second, communion is not received in large intoxicant inducing amounts.

Im not saying alcohol is wrong but abuse of it is. Marijuana and "high-inducing" should definitely be avoided.


        
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: SolEX01 on February 23, 2013, 05:08:57 PM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?

I was trying to establish that people drive while under the influence of marijuana and the effects are the same as driving under the influence of alcohol.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 23, 2013, 05:12:31 PM
Whether or not it leads to violent behavior, intoxication from marijuana is still an intoxication and therefore should be avoided by anyone of the Christian faith. Drunkenness and Intoxication are the same things.

How dare someone compare alcohol to the Most-Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, its the Blood of Christ.
And yet, consuming what remains of the Holy Mysteries after the conclusion of the Liturgy can make a priest somewhat tipsy. It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

Second, communion is not received in large intoxicant inducing amounts.
Thank you for proving my point! ;D If it's moral to drink wine in amounts too small to cause intoxication, then why is it immoral to smoke amounts of marijuana that are too small to cause intoxication?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 23, 2013, 05:14:15 PM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?

I was trying to establish that people drive while under the influence of marijuana and the effects are the same as driving under the influence of alcohol.
Then you're no longer talking about the harmful effects smoking of marijuana may have per se. You're talking about the effect marijuana smoking may have on one's driving, a problem to which there is a very simple solution: Don't drive stoned.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Ava on February 23, 2013, 05:14:23 PM
I have to say, I'm a little shocked by what I have been reading.
Perhaps one may consider this....
Though you may feel that you habits don't affect your own life in a negative way, consider how your actions affect those around you who are not so fortunate to keep their temptations under control.  Are we all SO sure of ourselves that we know for absolute certainty that using particular substances don't affect others directly or indirectly?
I just find it sad that something which is illegal in most states, people are willing to risk a run in with the law or carry the flag for a meager sense of pleasure.  There are more worthy things to fight for.  And if said substance is "needed" (rather than wanted) for someone to release stress or to relax, than perhaps some prayer is really needed.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 23, 2013, 11:15:46 PM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you
It's illegal and bad for you.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 23, 2013, 11:16:53 PM
Meh
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 12:57:39 AM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you
It's illegal and bad for you.
Has anyone ever smoked poit?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:05:30 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
That's what I said.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:06:48 AM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Yeah, God forbid people have even the slightest bit of fun in life.
Which has nothing to do with his post.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:06:59 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
That's what I said.
I was referring to your post.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:08:02 AM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Good thing that you can't get drunk of marijuana.
This type of game never ends well.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:08:56 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
That's what I said.
I was referring to your post.
I know, which is why it was amusing.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:10:12 AM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
That statement makes no sense. Wine is an intoxicant, yet we use it in the Eucharist.
It makes perfect sense.  You don't get drunk partaking of the Eucharist.  You get high partaking of MJ.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:21:01 AM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.
All of this has already been addressed.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:24:24 AM
Whether or not it leads to violent behavior, intoxication from marijuana is still an intoxication and therefore should be avoided by anyone of the Christian faith. Drunkenness and Intoxication are the same things.

How dare someone compare alcohol to the Most-Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, its the Blood of Christ.
And yet, consuming what remains of the Holy Mysteries after the conclusion of the Liturgy can make a priest somewhat tipsy. It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

Second, communion is not received in large intoxicant inducing amounts.
Thank you for proving my point! ;D If it's moral to drink wine in amounts too small to cause intoxication, then why is it immoral to smoke amounts of marijuana that are too small to cause intoxication?
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high.  There is no amount "too small."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:25:48 AM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?

I was trying to establish that people drive while under the influence of marijuana and the effects are the same as driving under the influence of alcohol.
Then you're no longer talking about the harmful effects smoking of marijuana may have per se. You're talking about the effect marijuana smoking may have on one's driving, a problem to which there is a very simple solution: Don't drive stoned.
Semantics do not a debate win.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:26:28 AM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
That statement makes no sense. Wine is an intoxicant, yet we use it in the Eucharist.
It makes perfect sense.  You don't get drunk partaking of the Eucharist.  You get high partaking of MJ.
Really? It's not possible to smoke marijuana but not enough to get high?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:27:08 AM
Whether or not it leads to violent behavior, intoxication from marijuana is still an intoxication and therefore should be avoided by anyone of the Christian faith. Drunkenness and Intoxication are the same things.

How dare someone compare alcohol to the Most-Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, its the Blood of Christ.
And yet, consuming what remains of the Holy Mysteries after the conclusion of the Liturgy can make a priest somewhat tipsy. It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

Second, communion is not received in large intoxicant inducing amounts.
Thank you for proving my point! ;D If it's moral to drink wine in amounts too small to cause intoxication, then why is it immoral to smoke amounts of marijuana that are too small to cause intoxication?
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high.  There is no amount "too small."
Really? You got any information that proves your point?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:27:38 AM
I have to say, I'm a little shocked by what I have been reading.
Perhaps one may consider this....
Though you may feel that you habits don't affect your own life in a negative way, consider how your actions affect those around you who are not so fortunate to keep their temptations under control.  Are we all SO sure of ourselves that we know for absolute certainty that using particular substances don't affect others directly or indirectly?
I just find it sad that something which is illegal in most states, people are willing to risk a run in with the law or carry the flag for a meager sense of pleasure.  There are more worthy things to fight for.  And if said substance is "needed" (rather than wanted) for someone to release stress or to relax, than perhaps some prayer is really needed.
People have always, and always will, poorly attempt to justify their sins.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:28:36 AM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?

I was trying to establish that people drive while under the influence of marijuana and the effects are the same as driving under the influence of alcohol.
Then you're no longer talking about the harmful effects smoking of marijuana may have per se. You're talking about the effect marijuana smoking may have on one's driving, a problem to which there is a very simple solution: Don't drive stoned.
Semantics do not a debate win.
But stupid one liners a debate will certainly lose.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:30:07 AM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
That statement makes no sense. Wine is an intoxicant, yet we use it in the Eucharist.
It makes perfect sense.  You don't get drunk partaking of the Eucharist.  You get high partaking of MJ.
Really? It's not possible to smoke marijuana but not enough to get high?
No.  For clarity, I'm not talking about smelling from across the hall.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:31:45 AM
Whether or not it leads to violent behavior, intoxication from marijuana is still an intoxication and therefore should be avoided by anyone of the Christian faith. Drunkenness and Intoxication are the same things.

How dare someone compare alcohol to the Most-Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, its the Blood of Christ.
And yet, consuming what remains of the Holy Mysteries after the conclusion of the Liturgy can make a priest somewhat tipsy. It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

Second, communion is not received in large intoxicant inducing amounts.
Thank you for proving my point! ;D If it's moral to drink wine in amounts too small to cause intoxication, then why is it immoral to smoke amounts of marijuana that are too small to cause intoxication?
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high.  There is no amount "too small."
Really? You got any information that proves your point?
You got any to disprove my point?  I've been in LE for a lot of years.  You can't disprove my experiences.  You can try, but it won't work.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:32:51 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
That's what I said.
I was referring to your post.
I know, which is why it was amusing.
Amusing that you would call someone else's post a fail yet at the same time admit that you're too lazy to break the post down and explain why it was a fail? That's why I called your post a FAIL. For the sake of discussion, if you think someone else's post failed, you owe it to the other participants in the debate to explain how the post failed.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?

I was trying to establish that people drive while under the influence of marijuana and the effects are the same as driving under the influence of alcohol.
Then you're no longer talking about the harmful effects smoking of marijuana may have per se. You're talking about the effect marijuana smoking may have on one's driving, a problem to which there is a very simple solution: Don't drive stoned.
Semantics do not a debate win.
But stupid one liners a debate will certainly lose.
If you want this to dissolve to the juvenile level you are taking it, I will be more than happy to follow.  Just be sure to leave you forum authority at the door.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:35:09 AM
Whether or not it leads to violent behavior, intoxication from marijuana is still an intoxication and therefore should be avoided by anyone of the Christian faith. Drunkenness and Intoxication are the same things.

How dare someone compare alcohol to the Most-Precious and Life-Giving Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, its the Blood of Christ.
And yet, consuming what remains of the Holy Mysteries after the conclusion of the Liturgy can make a priest somewhat tipsy. It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

Second, communion is not received in large intoxicant inducing amounts.
Thank you for proving my point! ;D If it's moral to drink wine in amounts too small to cause intoxication, then why is it immoral to smoke amounts of marijuana that are too small to cause intoxication?
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high.  There is no amount "too small."
Really? You got any information that proves your point?
You got any to disprove my point?
Not my burden. The burden of proof is on you to prove your point, not on me to disprove it.

I've been in LE for a lot of years.
What the pick is LE?

You can't disprove my experiences.  You can try, but it won't work.
But it's a logical fallacy to extrapolate all-inclusive generalizations from your personal experience.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:36:25 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
That's what I said.
I was referring to your post.
I know, which is why it was amusing.
Amusing that you would call someone else's post a fail yet at the same time admit that you're too lazy to break the post down and explain why it was a fail? That's why I called your post a FAIL. For the sake of discussion, if you think someone else's post failed, you owe it to the other participants in the debate to explain how the post failed.
Which you easily could have asked for me to explain anyway, but didnt, and did the same thing you said I should not have done, but I digress.  Your emotions are controlling your posts at this point.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:36:39 AM
Also, marijuana doesn't have any proven negative health affects on the body, whereas alcohol and tobacco have several. Plus, intoxication from marijuana ("being high") doesn not lead to violent behavior, but simply relaxes you, whereas many drunkards (who I consider worse than marijuana-addicts), become violent when they drink. On the other hand, it is also fair to mention that it is MUCH easier to study the affects of alcohol and tobacco because they are legalized and there is a steady observable population of drinkers and smokers to look to, whereas, marijuana is illegal and thus studying it is harder, and the population of marijuana smokers is more hidden and secretive, so it is harder to observe its affect on people.

Would you smoke a joint while driving?   ???
You do realize that it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol in the cab of your car while you're driving? So what does your red herring have to do with this discussion?

I was trying to establish that people drive while under the influence of marijuana and the effects are the same as driving under the influence of alcohol.
Then you're no longer talking about the harmful effects smoking of marijuana may have per se. You're talking about the effect marijuana smoking may have on one's driving, a problem to which there is a very simple solution: Don't drive stoned.
Semantics do not a debate win.
But stupid one liners a debate will certainly lose.
If you want this to dissolve to the juvenile level you are taking it,
Dude, you already took it there with your string of one-liners. Honestly, do you have anything more intelligent to say? If so, I would like to see you say it.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:40:04 AM
Coming in a little late on this one- oh well

Didn't know Kerdy was so vocal on the ganj, but yet so silent on other, and more, pertinent issues.
 

Such as?  I am vocal on many issues.  If I see one which I feel I should remark, I do, like abortion.  (I once mostly spoke of politics, but now having pulled away from that almost entirely, I no longer speak of it if I can)  And MJ is a pertinent issue.  It’s the precipice of legalizing dangerous drugs in America.

I think the part to prove is that dangerous drugs should be illegal. Or that by removing legal barriers to procuring and regulating said drugs the way we do other consumer products that these drugs would still be anywhere near as dangerous.

Some folks smoke to be more relaxed
 
Which is recreational and wrong.
According to who?

Some folks smoke … for medical reasons.
 
Such as?  Since people like to toss out there are no medical and scientific peer reviewed studies to show Marijuana is bad, perhaps you would not mind presenting all of those which have proven substantial medicinal purposes unachievable elsewhere.  Like the ones that don’t exist for the DEA to reschedule MJ and the supreme court supported them.
How about the perfectly legal drugs made from marijuana by drug companies because research has shown that marijuana- or more accurately the psychoactive ingredient THC- has more than a few medicinal benefits? We can argue about the motives behind the DEA and Feds to not reschedule marijuana itself, but the fact remains that it has many perfectly legitimate medicinal purposes. Smoking the plant can even bypass some of the worst of the consequences that cancer patients using the legal pharmaceutical pill version face- the pill is often prescribed to increase appetite after chemo, however, it is difficult to hold anything in one's stomach after chemo.

You're a nut, Kerdy.
I can live with it.  


Well, I'm certainly glad you can live with being the moral Pope of recreational users and judge of the AMA. You'd have fit right in with the people who pushed for and voted for the 18th Amendment.

Oh and BTW, recreational usage of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

It is NOW (not when a lot of people were getting high illegally before), according to state law, but there is that pesky federal law thing still out there which supersedes state law.  

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.
It would take far too long to properly break apart your post and too much board space, so I will simply say, "Fail" and leave it at that.
FAIL!
That's what I said.
I was referring to your post.
I know, which is why it was amusing.
Amusing that you would call someone else's post a fail yet at the same time admit that you're too lazy to break the post down and explain why it was a fail? That's why I called your post a FAIL. For the sake of discussion, if you think someone else's post failed, you owe it to the other participants in the debate to explain how the post failed.
Which you easily could have asked for me to explain anyway, but didnt,
Actually, I didn't ask you to explain because you had already stated why you didn't want to. I therefore deemed it best to honor your desire while at the same time criticizing it as foolish.

and did the same thing you said I should not have done,
I eventually did take the initiative to do what I suggested you should have done, thus following the tactics I had decided to take.

but I digress.  Your emotions are controlling your posts at this point.
Nah, not at all. You are engaging my every post in this dialogue, are you not? Why are you doing so?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 01:44:53 AM
The consumption of marijuana is wrong and no amount or word games or twisting of scripture will alleviate a person from being responsible for doing something wrong.  It really is that easy.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 01:51:32 AM
The consumption of marijuana is wrong and no amount or word games or twisting of scripture will alleviate a person from being responsible for doing something wrong.  It really is that easy.
No, it is not that easy. You need to explain exactly why smoking marijuana is a sin, and when challenged on your reasoning, you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself. I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both. I'm sure you can do better.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 02:01:44 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?  I saw the same thing on the Ancient Faith forum.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 02:06:39 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?
Why is that a bad thing?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 02:11:19 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?
Why is that a bad thing?
Aren't we supposed to be discussing how to be better people, not how to engage in criminal activities?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 02:37:40 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?
Why is that a bad thing?
Aren't we supposed to be discussing how to be better people, not how to engage in criminal activities?
In at least one state in the Union, Washington, the smoking of marijuana is actually legal. In at least one other state, Oregon, the use of marijuana is legal for medicinal purposes. Therefore, the discussion of whether the smoking of marijuana is a sin is in fact a necessary discussion. Remember that this is also an international discussion board. Who knows what countries represented here permit the smoking of marijuana? I therefore intend to support this discussion, regardless of whether you think it wise or not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 02:38:56 AM
 
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.

You need to explain exactly why smoking marijuana is a sin, and when challenged on your reasoning,

I already have, in this very thread.

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.

I'm sure you can do better.

I already did.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 02:40:08 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?  I saw the same thing on the Ancient Faith forum.

Good question.  There should be passionate unity on the issue, but modern times has altered human perception of right and wrong.  It's a sad thing to see, but it has happened.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 02:46:52 AM

What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?
Why is that a bad thing?
Aren't we supposed to be discussing how to be better people, not how to engage in criminal activities?
But the argument is, the laws are unjust...as if that really makes any difference, in any way.  This is "why" so many people violated federal laws and state laws before any of the state laws were changed (sin) and feel they were justified in doing so, even though federal law still says it is illegal (sin).  Additionally, they seek loop holes rather than truth in the Church and the Scriptures to find a way to do these things rather than follow the path they KNOW they should in the effort to be better Christians (sin).  It’s easier to do bad than good (sin). 

Even if they didn’t already know it was wrong to consume marijuana, which they do know (sin), they never stop to ask two simple questions:
1 –Does this glorify God?  If so, how?
2 – Would Jesus have REALLY condoned its consumption?

The answer to both, of course, is no, but that would destroy their efforts to be able to get high (sin) with a clear conscience. 

This isn’t the only thing they do this with.  There is homosexuality, infidelity, fornication, theft, abortion and a assortment of other sins.  Then they point to the other sins to justify the sin they want to not be sin.  It’s pure craziness, insanity.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 02:47:03 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 02:51:37 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.

Ok then.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 02:55:55 AM
But the argument is, the laws are unjust.
And I don't agree.  And I just had a drink the other day with a complete stranger at Hoolihan's, and my toast was: "Let's drink to our dear Americans in this beautiful prosperous country who think they got a rough deal and think their laws are awful and government bad, because they have no idea how good they have it as compared to where you and I are from."

But I'm not here to argue or protest against anyone's right to speak their mind.  Freedom of speech is another beautiful attribute about this God-blessed country.  :)

Church?  American churches are open, and beautiful, and well taken care of - and empty.  There are places where you can't go to church freely, or practice your religion freely, or be a free person at all.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 02:59:32 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.

Ok then.
So, what are you going to do to prove your point that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself? The key here is that you must prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that one does not get high from it. Merely citing your personal experience will not convince me, since I regard that as mere anecdotal evidence, evidence that has a much higher chance of being unreliable because it cannot be investigated scientifically. You need to cite source documents outside yourself, preferably peer reviewed documents from scientific/medical journals.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 03:09:46 AM
But the argument is, the laws are unjust.
And I don't agree.  And I just had a drink the other day with a complete stranger at Hoolihan's, and my toast was: "Let's drink to our dear Americans in this beautiful prosperous country who think they got a rough deal and think their laws are awful and government bad, because they have no idea how good they have it as compared to where you and I are from."

But I'm not here to argue or protest against anyone's right to speak their mind.  Freedom of speech is another beautiful attribute about this God-blessed country.  :)

Church?  American churches are open, and beautiful, and well taken care of - and empty.  There are places where you can't go to church freely, or practice your religion freely, or be a free person at all.

Sort of puts getting wasted on pot in perspective.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 03:13:27 AM
But the argument is, the laws are unjust.
And I don't agree.  And I just had a drink the other day with a complete stranger at Hoolihan's, and my toast was: "Let's drink to our dear Americans in this beautiful prosperous country who think they got a rough deal and think their laws are awful and government bad, because they have no idea how good they have it as compared to where you and I are from."

But I'm not here to argue or protest against anyone's right to speak their mind.  Freedom of speech is another beautiful attribute about this God-blessed country.  :)

Church?  American churches are open, and beautiful, and well taken care of - and empty.  There are places where you can't go to church freely, or practice your religion freely, or be a free person at all.

Sort of puts getting wasted on pot in perspective.
Whatever it is you mean.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 03:16:27 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.

Ok then.
So, what are you going to do to prove your point that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself? The key here is that you must prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that one does not get high from it. Merely citing your personal experience will not convince me, since I regard that as mere anecdotal evidence, evidence that has a much higher chance of being unreliable because it cannot be investigated scientifically. You need to cite source documents outside yourself, preferably peer reviewed documents from scientific/medical journals.

I don’t need to convince.  You already know I am right.  You are just playing devil’s advocate.  And even if you are not, which I strongly suspect you are, I still don’t have to do this unless my opinions are less than someone else’s.  The thing is, I have 2000 years of Christian history to support what I have said.  What does the opposite have?  A few decades of pot smokers.  I think I will stick with what the Church has always stood for and taught, thanks.  Unless, of course, you or someone else can prove 2000 years of Church teachings wrong...

Bolded portion:
Right after the same thing is provided for the opposite, which has already been asked for and never provided.  Your demand is a little late in the debate on this thread.  

EDIT:
And since when do peer reviewed medical journals dictate sin?  Oh, that’s right…they don’t.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 03:19:02 AM
But the argument is, the laws are unjust.
And I don't agree.  And I just had a drink the other day with a complete stranger at Hoolihan's, and my toast was: "Let's drink to our dear Americans in this beautiful prosperous country who think they got a rough deal and think their laws are awful and government bad, because they have no idea how good they have it as compared to where you and I are from."

But I'm not here to argue or protest against anyone's right to speak their mind.  Freedom of speech is another beautiful attribute about this God-blessed country.  :)

Church?  American churches are open, and beautiful, and well taken care of - and empty. There are places where you can't go to church freely, or practice your religion freely, or be a free person at all.

Sort of puts getting wasted on pot in perspective.
Whatever it is you mean.

In reference to the bolded portion in your post.  People ignore these truths and argue to be able to consume drugs to get high.  Doesn’t seem right to me.  Priorities appear to be out of order.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 03:38:58 AM
In reference to the bolded portion in your post.  People ignore these truths and argue to be able to consume drugs to get high.  Doesn’t seem right to me.  Priorities appear to be out of order.
You may find this film interesting: http://vimeo.com/46476690

It's a few years old and is called 'Well-Founded Fear."  As an immigration paralegal, I naturally find it very interesting because it talks about the work of government asylum officers with whom we work closely.  I recommend it to our asylum applicants so that they get an idea of what an asylum interview is.  But anyone may find it interesting.  It is about why and how people from other countries seek a safe haven in the United States.

I actually rented the movie from Netflix - then discovered it is available on Vimeo.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 03:40:31 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.

Ok then.
So, what are you going to do to prove your point that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself? The key here is that you must prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that one does not get high from it. Merely citing your personal experience will not convince me, since I regard that as mere anecdotal evidence, evidence that has a much higher chance of being unreliable because it cannot be investigated scientifically. You need to cite source documents outside yourself, preferably peer reviewed documents from scientific/medical journals.

I don’t need to convince.  You already know I am right.  You are just playing devil’s advocate.
Please do not be so patronizing as to presume to know what I'm trying to do, for you do not know.

And even if you are not, which I strongly suspect you are, I still don’t have to do this unless my opinions are less than someone else’s.
You do have to offer proof because you have not done so yet, at least not enough to convince me.

The thing is, I have 2000 years of Christian history to support what I have said.
So prove it.

What does the opposite have?  A few decades of pot smokers.  I think I will stick with what the Church has always stood for and taught, thanks.  Unless, of course, you or someone else can prove 2000 years of Church teachings wrong...
Can you prove that what you represent is actually not just your own opinion?

Bolded portion:
Right after the same thing is provided for the opposite, which has already been asked for and never provided.  Your demand is a little late in the debate on this thread.

EDIT:
And since when do peer reviewed medical journals dictate sin?  Oh, that’s right…they don’t.
They can be used to prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that it doesn't make one high. I will grant that intoxication is a sin, whether one be drunk on beer or high on pot. But if you cannot prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of pot so small that it doesn't intoxicate, then all you can do is argue that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself, even if it doesn't make one high. IMO, if the drinking of amounts of alcohol too small to intoxicate is not of itself sinful, then the smoking of amounts of marijuana too small to intoxicate is not of itself sinful--I think I also have the support of Scripture and traditional Church teaching to back me up on this.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 03:59:05 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.

Ok then.
So, what are you going to do to prove your point that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself? The key here is that you must prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that one does not get high from it. Merely citing your personal experience will not convince me, since I regard that as mere anecdotal evidence, evidence that has a much higher chance of being unreliable because it cannot be investigated scientifically. You need to cite source documents outside yourself, preferably peer reviewed documents from scientific/medical journals.

I don’t need to convince.  You already know I am right.  You are just playing devil’s advocate.
Please do not be so patronizing as to presume to know what I'm trying to do, for you do not know.

And even if you are not, which I strongly suspect you are, I still don’t have to do this unless my opinions are less than someone else’s.
You do have to offer proof because you have not done so yet, at least not enough to convince me.

The thing is, I have 2000 years of Christian history to support what I have said.
So prove it.

What does the opposite have?  A few decades of pot smokers.  I think I will stick with what the Church has always stood for and taught, thanks.  Unless, of course, you or someone else can prove 2000 years of Church teachings wrong...
Can you prove that what you represent is actually not just your own opinion?

Bolded portion:
Right after the same thing is provided for the opposite, which has already been asked for and never provided.  Your demand is a little late in the debate on this thread.

EDIT:
And since when do peer reviewed medical journals dictate sin?  Oh, that’s right…they don’t.
They can be used to prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that it doesn't make one high. I will grant that intoxication is a sin, whether one be drunk on beer or high on pot. But if you cannot prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of pot so small that it doesn't intoxicate, then all you can do is argue that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself, even if it doesn't make one high. IMO, if the drinking of amounts of alcohol too small to intoxicate is not of itself sinful, then the smoking of amounts of marijuana too small to intoxicate is not of itself sinful--I think I also have the support of Scripture and traditional Church teaching to back me up on this.

Semantics and word games.  No thanks.  It isn’t my kind of game.  Chutes and Ladders, now that may be a game I would enjoy playing with you.  Again, I don’t care if you are convinced or if you are not.  The fact other people agree with me shows it isn’t just my opinion.  If what I have provided is not sufficient for you, so be it.  I can live with that, no problem.  I don’t have to answer for you or anyone else.  Each must make their own choices and if they choose to ignore right from wrong, they also choose to accept the consequences of that decision.  You stated, “I will grant that intoxication (Drunkenness, Inebriation, Intemperance) is a sin.”  I agree, as does the Church.  End of story. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on February 24, 2013, 04:11:10 AM
Quote from: FormerReformer

Not by any right governance of the American people as set forth in the Constitution. The Federal government has been operating illegally for quite some time.

 :o

Wow.
That caught my eye too. Suffice it to say. Long live Calhoun! ;)
Although I think recreational drugs should be legal. I mean most people under a certain age do them anyways.

I don't know I'd go as far as secession. But, with only a quick touch on Politics, we have every armed conflict since the end of WWII, the Patriot Act, and the new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss's supposed right to order hits on American citizens without due process, so long as it serves the War on Terror to provide a few examples of what I mean.

(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Pascha2010/images/warnwarn.gif) 
For knowingly posting politics on the Public Forum, where discussion of politics is forbidden, you are receiving this warning to last for the next 7 days. If you wish to appeal this warning, please send me a private message.

- PeterTheAleut
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 04:50:12 AM
No, it is not that easy.

Yes, it certainly is that easy.  Your disagreement does not change this fact in any way.
How is it that easy to recognize that the consumption of marijuana is wrong? Because you say so?

you need to answer the challenges from sources outside yourself.

Not really.  Experience is life’s greatest teacher, especially when your occupation puts you smack dab in the middle of the topic being discussed.  But, again, I have.
You're extrapolating universal generalizations from your own experience. That's a logical fallacy.

I've only seen you give feeble attempts at both.
Then you didn’t read this thread much at all.
Actually, I have read this thread, yet I see nothing that changes my perception of your retorts.

Ok then.
So, what are you going to do to prove your point that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself? The key here is that you must prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that one does not get high from it. Merely citing your personal experience will not convince me, since I regard that as mere anecdotal evidence, evidence that has a much higher chance of being unreliable because it cannot be investigated scientifically. You need to cite source documents outside yourself, preferably peer reviewed documents from scientific/medical journals.

I don’t need to convince.  You already know I am right.  You are just playing devil’s advocate.
Please do not be so patronizing as to presume to know what I'm trying to do, for you do not know.

And even if you are not, which I strongly suspect you are, I still don’t have to do this unless my opinions are less than someone else’s.
You do have to offer proof because you have not done so yet, at least not enough to convince me.

The thing is, I have 2000 years of Christian history to support what I have said.
So prove it.

What does the opposite have?  A few decades of pot smokers.  I think I will stick with what the Church has always stood for and taught, thanks.  Unless, of course, you or someone else can prove 2000 years of Church teachings wrong...
Can you prove that what you represent is actually not just your own opinion?

Bolded portion:
Right after the same thing is provided for the opposite, which has already been asked for and never provided.  Your demand is a little late in the debate on this thread.

EDIT:
And since when do peer reviewed medical journals dictate sin?  Oh, that’s right…they don’t.
They can be used to prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of marijuana so small that it doesn't make one high. I will grant that intoxication is a sin, whether one be drunk on beer or high on pot. But if you cannot prove that it's impossible to smoke an amount of pot so small that it doesn't intoxicate, then all you can do is argue that the smoking of marijuana is a sin in and of itself, even if it doesn't make one high. IMO, if the drinking of amounts of alcohol too small to intoxicate is not of itself sinful, then the smoking of amounts of marijuana too small to intoxicate is not of itself sinful--I think I also have the support of Scripture and traditional Church teaching to back me up on this.

Semantics and word games.  No thanks.  It isn’t my kind of game.  Chutes and Ladders, now that may be a game I would enjoy playing with you.  Again, I don’t care if you are convinced or if you are not.  The fact other people agree with me shows it isn’t just my opinion.  If what I have provided is not sufficient for you, so be it.  I can live with that, no problem.  I don’t have to answer for you or anyone else.  Each must make their own choices and if they choose to ignore right from wrong, they also choose to accept the consequences of that decision.  You stated, “I will grant that intoxication (Drunkenness, Inebriation, Intemperance) is a sin.”  I agree, as does the Church.
But the question of this thread is whether smoking marijuana is a sin. So far you have failed to prove that it is. (FWIW, I really don't care one way or the other whether smoking marijuana is a sin. I don't smoke marijuana. I wouldn't smoke marijuana even if it was legal to do so, for I simply have no use for the stuff. I just have a meter that's very sensitive to dogmatic BS, a meter known by many on this forum, and you just tripped it.)

BTW, when you insert a parenthetical into a quote of words I said, you attribute to me things I never said. That is very rude and dishonest. If you're going to quote me, then quote me verbatim. Don't change my words again.

End of story.  
Nice dodge.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: katherine 2001 on February 24, 2013, 05:47:31 AM
I have a solution if you don't know whether using marijuana is a sin.  Ask your priest (or even your bishop when he visits your parish).  Does the Church have guidelines on how to handle that if it is confessed or the priest has knowledge that a person does that?  Isn't the Church more qualified to answer that question, since it is much more qualified to answer a question about whether something is considered sinful than the scientific studies?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 06:38:09 AM
But the question of this thread is whether smoking marijuana is a sin.
 

I said it is and provided multiple reasons why I believe it is a sin.  Either you accept them or you don’t.  You not accepting them is of no consequence in the end.  Agree, disagree, be apathetic, it makes no difference.  Truth is truth regardless of how much we want to debate.  Word games, with which I do not engage, is for trivial debate, and useless.

BTW, when you insert a parenthetical into a quote of words I said, you attribute to me things I never said. That is very rude and dishonest. If you're going to quote me, then quote me verbatim.
Other words with the same meaning used in the same context considering its usage in this discussion.  It’s called a synonym (substitute, alternative word, replacement).  I used a dictionary to ensure I did not make a mistake.  If you must be upset with someone, be upset with Webster’s.  That is the reason they were put in parentheses.  So anyone reading would know I put them in there and they were not from you originally.  Only used to complete the thought on my end.  If you prefer a different way, and it is correct in a grammatical way, I will be more than happy to implement that style.  The way I performed the task has been used for a very long time and is accepted throughout the English speaking world.

Nice dodge.
No dodge.  Truth.  You, I and the Church are all in agreement.  There is nothing else to discuss.  Any further debate is fruitless, empty and would be for personal satisfaction.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 06:55:48 AM
I have a solution if you don't know whether using marijuana is a sin.  Ask your priest (or even your bishop when he visits your parish).  Does the Church have guidelines on how to handle that if it is confessed or the priest has knowledge that a person does that?  Isn't the Church more qualified to answer that question, since it is much more qualified to answer a question about whether something is considered sinful than the scientific studies?
Only if the Church teachings have been peer reviewed and subjected to scientific and medical scrutiny, apparently.  Afterall, if a priest shouldn’t teach about how the universe was created (he is not an evolutionary biologist) or how homosexuality is wrong (he is not a genetic biologist and doctor/psychologist), he has no leg to stand on when speaking about marijuana.  He is not a doctor, he is not a science professor, he did not work at Duke University poison control for the entire time he was in medical school (although the person who turned me onto the troubles of MJ did all those things).  He shouldn’t say anything and the Church should remain silent.  After all, the millennia’s of Christian and before that Jewish teachings did know what we know today about science.  I mean, murder only is murder if the child is “viable” in its own right (whatever that means)…right?

It is a very simply thought process.  Either accept the Church and what it teaches or deny the Church and what it teaches…on everything.  It is all or nothing.  What is the saying about being lukewarm?  If you accept the Church in its entirety, you deny the world and will be ridiculed.  If you deny the Church in its entirety and embrace the world, you will be judged accordingly. 

So, we must choose.  The mind of God or the mind of man.  There are no other options available.  We may play the game and attempt to add other options, but in the end, it is either God or man.  But what do I know?  What does a priest or a Bishop know compared to worldly knowledge?  Another saying comes to mind.  Something about knowledge increasing but not saving.  Maybe I am dreaming it up.  Who can say?  It seems an understanding accepted universally throughout the Church only applies to specific items and must be re-defended when a new specification arises, such as getting high on marijuana.  Since the ECF's didn't specifically say it (MJ) was wrong, it must be acceptable (or some other nonsense, I can’t keep up with it these days).
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 24, 2013, 09:04:08 AM
Not only is marijuana illegal but its also an intoxicant and its written in the scriptures that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
That statement makes no sense. Wine is an intoxicant, yet we use it in the Eucharist.
It makes perfect sense.  You don't get drunk partaking of the Eucharist.  You get high partaking of MJ.
Really? It's not possible to smoke marijuana but not enough to get high?

It is possible. Especially when someone is not used to smoking. Not, that it has any sense then.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 24, 2013, 09:08:01 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?
Why is that a bad thing?
Aren't we supposed to be discussing how to be better people, not how to engage in criminal activities?

It's not criminal where I live. The world is bigger than the US.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 24, 2013, 09:21:14 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?
Why is that a bad thing?
Aren't we supposed to be discussing how to be better people, not how to engage in criminal activities?

It's not criminal where I live.
This does not make it ok.  In Iran, aren't honor killings legal?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 24, 2013, 09:31:29 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?  I saw the same thing on the Ancient Faith forum.

Good question.  There should be passionate unity on the issue, but modern times has altered human perception of right and wrong.  It's a sad thing to see, but it has happened.

Which Synod, Father or Apostle condemned marijuana?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 09:44:54 AM
some of you sure are a pitiful bunch. but seriously, that picture of my favorite custom made artisan glass pipe is forthcoming for all of those who requested it.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on February 24, 2013, 10:04:18 AM
Celebrating criminal activity seems like it might be against the forum rules. IDK.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 24, 2013, 10:34:40 AM
some of you sure are a pitiful bunch. but seriously, that picture of my favorite custom made artisan glass pipe is forthcoming for all of those who requested it.

"Let me show it to you! Let me show it to you! Boy oh boy!"   ::)

(http://www.allpetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Dog-Playing-With-Toy.jpg)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 10:35:34 AM
Look, here's the deal folks.  

I wasnt all that popular when I was in school either.  I got along okay with people, but I wasn't exactly homecoming king or the star QB.  But I grew up.  I wasnt the principal's hall monitor in school and I'm not today.

Stop acting like the hall monitor.  Look, I get that we're all trying to do the best we can to love God rightly and love our neighbors. We're trying to be good Orthodox.

But the zeal with which some of you wield the canons, the teachings, secular law, etc., as weapons against people...well, lets just say it feels an awful lot like people who just love wearing a theological hall monitor badge on your shirt.  We get it, youre awesome.  We get it, youre "a greater sinner" than those of us who have, or do, smoke a little weed now and again -- even though the claim is hollow.  We get it, youre a monk in your own mind and you secretly hate that you actually live in the world and not in a monastery, so you'll treat this message board like it's a cyber monastery.  

I have had this weed conversation more times than I can count and it's always the same, which is why I've essentially just punked this thread.  The bottom line is that if I had the patience for it, the hypocrisy of the "it's against the law" argument would become evident.  It isn't consistent.  We advocate support for the law except when we disagree on theological grounds.  And those "theological grounds" are open to interpretation.

I've heard Christians tell me that MLK Jr. was actually WRONG for disobeying the law in his civil disobedience movements.  Some of you might actually agree with that.  Those same christians are probably stocking up on guns right now in fear that Obama is coming for the guns.  And I'm sure they won't give the guns up if made to.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 10:36:01 AM
some of you sure are a pitiful bunch. but seriously, that picture of my favorite custom made artisan glass pipe is forthcoming for all of those who requested it.

"Let me show it to you! Let me show it to you! Boy oh boy!"

(http://www.allpetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Dog-Playing-With-Toy.jpg)
how did you get my pic?!?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Romaios on February 24, 2013, 10:38:49 AM
how did you get my pic?!?

Wikileaks.  ;)  :D
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 10:39:57 AM
how did you get my pic?!?

Wikileaks.  ;)  :D
that's an organization I'm just SURE the folks around here love!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 12:08:50 PM
But the question of this thread is whether smoking marijuana is a sin.
 

I said it is and provided multiple reasons why I believe it is a sin.  Either you accept them or you don’t.  You not accepting them is of no consequence in the end.  Agree, disagree, be apathetic, it makes no difference.  Truth is truth regardless of how much we want to debate.  Word games, with which I do not engage, is for trivial debate, and useless.

BTW, when you insert a parenthetical into a quote of words I said, you attribute to me things I never said. That is very rude and dishonest. If you're going to quote me, then quote me verbatim.
Other words with the same meaning used in the same context considering its usage in this discussion.  It’s called a synonym (substitute, alternative word, replacement).  I used a dictionary to ensure I did not make a mistake.  If you must be upset with someone, be upset with Webster’s.
But Webster's Dictionary did not insert words into my quote. You did.  My complaint is therefore with you.

That is the reason they were put in parentheses.  So anyone reading would know I put them in there and they were not from you originally.
Doesn't matter. They're still wrapped up inside the same quotation marks, thereby implying that I said them.

Only used to complete the thought on my end.  If you prefer a different way, and it is correct in a grammatical way, I will be more than happy to implement that style.
Please do.

The way I performed the task has been used for a very long time and is accepted throughout the English speaking world.
If so, I've never seen it before.

Nice dodge.
No dodge.  Truth.  You, I and the Church are all in agreement.  There is nothing else to discuss.  Any further debate is fruitless, empty and would be for personal satisfaction.
No, Kerdy, you're dodging.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on February 24, 2013, 03:07:17 PM
Look, here's the deal folks.  

I wasnt all that popular when I was in school either.  I got along okay with people, but I wasn't exactly homecoming king or the star QB.  But I grew up.  I wasnt the principal's hall monitor in school and I'm not today.

Stop acting like the hall monitor.  Look, I get that we're all trying to do the best we can to love God rightly and love our neighbors. We're trying to be good Orthodox.

But the zeal with which some of you wield the canons, the teachings, secular law, etc., as weapons against people...well, lets just say it feels an awful lot like people who just love wearing a theological hall monitor badge on your shirt.  We get it, youre awesome.  We get it, youre "a greater sinner" than those of us who have, or do, smoke a little weed now and again -- even though the claim is hollow.  We get it, youre a monk in your own mind and you secretly hate that you actually live in the world and not in a monastery, so you'll treat this message board like it's a cyber monastery.  

I have had this weed conversation more times than I can count and it's always the same, which is why I've essentially just punked this thread.  The bottom line is that if I had the patience for it, the hypocrisy of the "it's against the law" argument would become evident.  It isn't consistent.  We advocate support for the law except when we disagree on theological grounds.  And those "theological grounds" are open to interpretation.

I've heard Christians tell me that MLK Jr. was actually WRONG for disobeying the law in his civil disobedience movements.  Some of you might actually agree with that.  Those same christians are probably stocking up on guns right now in fear that Obama is coming for the guns.  And I'm sure they won't give the guns up if made to.


God, I thank You, that I am not as other men are.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 03:23:24 PM
Look, here's the deal folks.  

I wasnt all that popular when I was in school either.  I got along okay with people, but I wasn't exactly homecoming king or the star QB.  But I grew up.  I wasnt the principal's hall monitor in school and I'm not today.

Stop acting like the hall monitor.  Look, I get that we're all trying to do the best we can to love God rightly and love our neighbors. We're trying to be good Orthodox.

But the zeal with which some of you wield the canons, the teachings, secular law, etc., as weapons against people...well, lets just say it feels an awful lot like people who just love wearing a theological hall monitor badge on your shirt.  We get it, youre awesome.  We get it, youre "a greater sinner" than those of us who have, or do, smoke a little weed now and again -- even though the claim is hollow.  We get it, youre a monk in your own mind and you secretly hate that you actually live in the world and not in a monastery, so you'll treat this message board like it's a cyber monastery.  

I have had this weed conversation more times than I can count and it's always the same, which is why I've essentially just punked this thread.  The bottom line is that if I had the patience for it, the hypocrisy of the "it's against the law" argument would become evident.  It isn't consistent.  We advocate support for the law except when we disagree on theological grounds.  And those "theological grounds" are open to interpretation.

I've heard Christians tell me that MLK Jr. was actually WRONG for disobeying the law in his civil disobedience movements.  Some of you might actually agree with that.  Those same christians are probably stocking up on guns right now in fear that Obama is coming for the guns.  And I'm sure they won't give the guns up if made to.


God, I thank You, that I am not as other men are.
it's a real indictment of many on this forum that I can't tell what in the world you are saying with your pseudomystical ambiguous response.  I can't tell if you're attempting to criticize my post by insinuating that I am like the man who said that (likely), or if you're indicting yourself (not likely), or something else.

Either way, it's yet another response that seems to mean something on the surface when in reality it's possibly just another nonsensical spiritual sounding phrase.  Like when Maria uses the phrase "I am the greatest of sinners" as a way of backhandedly asserting a spiritual greatness over others.  Spiritual limbo -- how low can you get...in order to win the game.

If I am reading you wrong, I apologize.  We shall see.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on February 24, 2013, 03:42:55 PM
Look, here's the deal folks.  

I wasnt all that popular when I was in school either.  I got along okay with people, but I wasn't exactly homecoming king or the star QB.  But I grew up.  I wasnt the principal's hall monitor in school and I'm not today.

Stop acting like the hall monitor.  Look, I get that we're all trying to do the best we can to love God rightly and love our neighbors. We're trying to be good Orthodox.

But the zeal with which some of you wield the canons, the teachings, secular law, etc., as weapons against people...well, lets just say it feels an awful lot like people who just love wearing a theological hall monitor badge on your shirt.  We get it, youre awesome.  We get it, youre "a greater sinner" than those of us who have, or do, smoke a little weed now and again -- even though the claim is hollow.  We get it, youre a monk in your own mind and you secretly hate that you actually live in the world and not in a monastery, so you'll treat this message board like it's a cyber monastery.  

I have had this weed conversation more times than I can count and it's always the same, which is why I've essentially just punked this thread.  The bottom line is that if I had the patience for it, the hypocrisy of the "it's against the law" argument would become evident.  It isn't consistent.  We advocate support for the law except when we disagree on theological grounds.  And those "theological grounds" are open to interpretation.

I've heard Christians tell me that MLK Jr. was actually WRONG for disobeying the law in his civil disobedience movements.  Some of you might actually agree with that.  Those same christians are probably stocking up on guns right now in fear that Obama is coming for the guns.  And I'm sure they won't give the guns up if made to.


God, I thank You, that I am not as other men are.
it's a real indictment of many on this forum that I can't tell what in the world you are saying with your pseudomystical ambiguous response.  I can't tell if you're attempting to criticize my post by insinuating that I am like the man who said that (likely), or if you're indicting yourself (not likely), or something else.

Either way, it's yet another response that seems to mean something on the surface when in reality it's possibly just another nonsensical spiritual sounding phrase.  Like when Maria uses the phrase "I am the greatest of sinners" as a way of backhandedly asserting a spiritual greatness over others.  Spiritual limbo -- how low can you get...in order to win the game.

If I am reading you wrong, I apologize.  We shall see.

It's pretty straightforward actually. Your posts are probably some of the most self-righteous I've ever seen on these forums.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on February 24, 2013, 03:51:57 PM
It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

So the hypostatic union is not between God and man but between God, man and fermented grapes?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 03:57:40 PM
Look, here's the deal folks.  

I wasnt all that popular when I was in school either.  I got along okay with people, but I wasn't exactly homecoming king or the star QB.  But I grew up.  I wasnt the principal's hall monitor in school and I'm not today.

Stop acting like the hall monitor.  Look, I get that we're all trying to do the best we can to love God rightly and love our neighbors. We're trying to be good Orthodox.

But the zeal with which some of you wield the canons, the teachings, secular law, etc., as weapons against people...well, lets just say it feels an awful lot like people who just love wearing a theological hall monitor badge on your shirt.  We get it, youre awesome.  We get it, youre "a greater sinner" than those of us who have, or do, smoke a little weed now and again -- even though the claim is hollow.  We get it, youre a monk in your own mind and you secretly hate that you actually live in the world and not in a monastery, so you'll treat this message board like it's a cyber monastery.  

I have had this weed conversation more times than I can count and it's always the same, which is why I've essentially just punked this thread.  The bottom line is that if I had the patience for it, the hypocrisy of the "it's against the law" argument would become evident.  It isn't consistent.  We advocate support for the law except when we disagree on theological grounds.  And those "theological grounds" are open to interpretation.

I've heard Christians tell me that MLK Jr. was actually WRONG for disobeying the law in his civil disobedience movements.  Some of you might actually agree with that.  Those same christians are probably stocking up on guns right now in fear that Obama is coming for the guns.  And I'm sure they won't give the guns up if made to.


God, I thank You, that I am not as other men are.
it's a real indictment of many on this forum that I can't tell what in the world you are saying with your pseudomystical ambiguous response.  I can't tell if you're attempting to criticize my post by insinuating that I am like the man who said that (likely), or if you're indicting yourself (not likely), or something else.

Either way, it's yet another response that seems to mean something on the surface when in reality it's possibly just another nonsensical spiritual sounding phrase.  Like when Maria uses the phrase "I am the greatest of sinners" as a way of backhandedly asserting a spiritual greatness over others.  Spiritual limbo -- how low can you get...in order to win the game.

If I am reading you wrong, I apologize.  We shall see.

It's pretty straightforward actually. Your posts are probably some of the most self-righteous I've ever seen on these forums.
are they?  or are you just playing the whole "I know you are, but what am I" game?  I think it's the latter.

My posts are aimed at those who judge harshly, beat others over the head with pious words and the canons, and can barely disguise their contempt for democracy and modern times.  

(Just to save you the time, here's your follow up post:  "Ohhh, so you're judging people who judge?!?! Oh, isn't that rich!  What hypocrisy!")

Did I get that close to right?

If that was going to be your response, I say "grow up."  That's amateur.

If you want me to play the game I will.  I've been open about my beliefs and thoughts and opinions.  I AM sinful, like all of us.  I DO hold views that many believe to be controversial.  I AM politically very liberal.  I HAVE addictions and egotism.

Yup.

But I am not going to play those things like instruments in a discussion.  I think it's interesting that you accuse me of being oh-so-judgmental in on the boards, when you're the one who wants to appeal to the rules of the message board about my joking to post my pipe.

I think it's interesting that in a thread where several people have used phrases like "it makes me sad to see this," "The Church is on my side on this," and "It's a sin, that's all there is to it," that I am construed to be the most judgmental.


Let's not be dumb here.  Just as it is okay to be intolerant of racism (a popular, and idiotic, critique being that it's intolerant to be intolerance of racism)...it is okay to judge judgmentalism.  

I AM a sinner, trust me.  I'm all too aware.  And judgmentalism may be one of those sins, but what you're calling me out on is not that.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on February 24, 2013, 04:08:04 PM
I think it's interesting that in a thread where several people have used phrases like "it makes me sad to see this," "The Church is on my side on this," and "It's a sin, that's all there is to it," that I am construed to be the most judgmental.

But no real judgement of people rather than actions (as far as I know) until a post about how "some of you sure are a pitiful bunch."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 04:16:33 PM
But no real judgement of people rather than actions (as far as I know) until a post about how "some of you sure are a pitiful bunch."
Yeah, I saw that too.  Law-abiding citizens = pitiful bunch.  Offenders = national heroes.  And if you agree with the new proposed gun laws - you're plain mentally impaired.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 04:24:56 PM
I think it's interesting that in a thread where several people have used phrases like "it makes me sad to see this," "The Church is on my side on this," and "It's a sin, that's all there is to it," that I am construed to be the most judgmental.

But no real judgement of people rather than actions (as far as I know) until a post about how "some of you sure are a pitiful bunch."
sometimes that is a distinction without purpose.

Okay, I'll allow that quote you pulled from my post was harsh.  But it fit with my analogy that many here seem to think that they're hall monitors for the Church.  But the distinction between judging people rather than actions is blurred here quite often.  And anyone with half of a brain knows that usually when someone says "smoking is a sin and the Church is on my side and it's sad to see so many Orthodox Christians blah blah blah" that that is only a rhetorical way of judging the person.  You may disagree.  I'll disagree with your disagreement.

But no real judgement of people rather than actions (as far as I know) until a post about how "some of you sure are a pitiful bunch."
Yeah, I saw that too.  Law-abiding citizens = pitiful bunch.  Offenders = national heroes.  And if you agree with the new proposed gun laws - you're plain mentally impaired.

Yeah..because that's exactly what I was saying.  Your little equations make it easy to SEEM like you're saying something, but you're not.  I am not calling law-abiding citizens a pitiful bunch.  I'm calling those who would (literally or figuratively) see a pretty decent person smoking, and run to the next police officer, priest, principal, or whatever, to tell on them, a pitiful bunch.  Which they are.  Like I said, "Hall Monitors."   Also, I know some pretty scummy potheads.  I wouldn't dare call them national heroes.  But I also know some pretty great people who smoke weed every once in a while.

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Nadege on February 24, 2013, 04:28:18 PM
Yeah..because that's exactly what I was saying.  Next...


Next - go and vote for who and what you want.  I'll do the same.  And stop spitting insults around on the internet, it doesn't speak in your favor but only makes one sorry that you're not over your lonely bullied past.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 24, 2013, 04:31:52 PM
Spare us your personal squabbles. All of you.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 04:49:34 PM
hehehe
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on February 24, 2013, 04:49:55 PM
yes sir
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

So the hypostatic union is not between God and man but between God, man and fermented grapes?
??? What is that supposed to mean? ???
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on February 24, 2013, 05:03:47 PM
It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

So the hypostatic union is not between God and man but between God, man and fermented grapes?
??? What is that supposed to mean? ???

How can something be both the blood of Christ and wine unless it is hypostatically united?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on February 24, 2013, 05:08:48 PM
It is the Blood of Christ, yes, but it also remains wine all the same.

So the hypostatic union is not between God and man but between God, man and fermented grapes?
??? What is that supposed to mean? ???

How can something be both the blood of Christ and wine unless it is hypostatically united?
1. What does hypostatic union have to do with whether the Body and Blood is in truth still bread and wine even after becoming also Body and Blood?
2. Do you even know what hypostatic union is? Is this something you've been taught yet in your inquirers' class?
3. If you wish to debate this, would you be willing to start a new thread so we don't derail this one?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 26, 2013, 06:31:01 AM
What's with Orthodox Christian forums and passionate debates on pot?  I saw the same thing on the Ancient Faith forum.

Good question.  There should be passionate unity on the issue, but modern times has altered human perception of right and wrong.  It's a sad thing to see, but it has happened.

Which Synod, Father or Apostle condemned marijuana?
I refer you to my post two up from the one I am responding to.  I didn’t even say that for someone to fall into a trap, yet you did.  A happy accident on my part.

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on February 27, 2013, 03:02:26 PM
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high. There is no amount "too small."

No.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 28, 2013, 04:18:11 AM
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high. There is no amount "too small."

No.
Of course you can prove me incorrect, yes?

Keep in mind you must be able to provide ng/ml in relation to inebriation.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on February 28, 2013, 05:17:55 AM
If you directly inhale MJ, you get high. There is no amount "too small."

No.
Of course you can prove me incorrect, yes?

You could smoke together.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shiny on February 28, 2013, 05:21:13 AM
My first time smoking marijuana, I had 5 puffs. It did nothing. I'm sure if I smoked a bowl id be fine too.

For some reason I have high tolerance towards that and alcohol.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on February 28, 2013, 05:39:14 AM
My first time smoking marijuana, I had 5 puffs. It did I felt nothing. I'm sure if I smoked a bowl id be fine too.

For some reason I have high tolerance towards that and alcohol.
Fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on March 01, 2013, 01:31:45 AM
My only caution toward marijuana is that unless you are growing it yourself, you have no way of knowing for sure where it came from. For all you know, it could have been tampered with or mixed with harmful ingredients to make it more addictive or something. Drug dealers aren't exactly the most honest people, so only a fool would take their word for it. Personally, I'd never take drugs from anyone. If you're going to do them, grow your own. Drug dealers are dangerous people. My grandfather is in jail for probably the rest of his life due to getting in a shootout with some violent "customers."
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JMTRD6 on March 02, 2013, 03:13:42 AM
I must say that, for most of my life, I have been very outspoken about my contempt for marijuana use.  I have, as many others on this forum have, equated it to drunkenness (which is a known sin).  However, I have learned to tolerate it and even appreciate it in some situations.  No, I have never used marijuana myself, but it is a FACT that, without marijuana, my wife would be in bed for no less than 50% of her life.  But that doesn't mean that even SHE hasn't questioned whether or not she is sinning.  She has cried many tears over the OP's question, but our spiritual father has assured her that SHE is committing no sin.  What of some of the other "medications" that she has used?  Xanax is commonly used by people to get some sort of high, but it was prescribed to her for anxiety.  She has taken medicine that has caused her to lose hair, memory, and motor function.  To me, that stuff seems FAR worse than the side effects of marijuana.  If marijuana allows my wife to live a somewhat normal and happy life, then I can't see our Lord holding that against her, especially when she uses it so sparingly and with such great concern for her spiritual well being.  As for recreational use, I am still not a fan, but I believe it is up to one's spiritual father to determine whether it is a repentance-worthy sin or not.  By the way, I live in Colorado, where (under state law), medicinal and recreational use are legal. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on March 07, 2013, 03:44:23 AM
My only caution toward marijuana is that unless you are growing it yourself, you have no way of knowing for sure where it came from. For all you know, it could have been tampered with or mixed with harmful ingredients to make it more addictive or something. Drug dealers aren't exactly the most honest people, so only a fool would take their word for it. Personally, I'd never take drugs from anyone. If you're going to do them, grow your own. Drug dealers are dangerous people. My grandfather is in jail for probably the rest of his life due to getting in a shootout with some violent "customers."


I agree. And I'm very sorry to hear about your grandfather. I hope you are able to visit him.



Selam
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Gebre Menfes Kidus on March 07, 2013, 03:46:56 AM
I must say that, for most of my life, I have been very outspoken about my contempt for marijuana use.  I have, as many others on this forum have, equated it to drunkenness (which is a known sin).  However, I have learned to tolerate it and even appreciate it in some situations.  No, I have never used marijuana myself, but it is a FACT that, without marijuana, my wife would be in bed for no less than 50% of her life.  But that doesn't mean that even SHE hasn't questioned whether or not she is sinning.  She has cried many tears over the OP's question, but our spiritual father has assured her that SHE is committing no sin.  What of some of the other "medications" that she has used?  Xanax is commonly used by people to get some sort of high, but it was prescribed to her for anxiety.  She has taken medicine that has caused her to lose hair, memory, and motor function.  To me, that stuff seems FAR worse than the side effects of marijuana.  If marijuana allows my wife to live a somewhat normal and happy life, then I can't see our Lord holding that against her, especially when she uses it so sparingly and with such great concern for her spiritual well being.  As for recreational use, I am still not a fan, but I believe it is up to one's spiritual father to determine whether it is a repentance-worthy sin or not.  By the way, I live in Colorado, where (under state law), medicinal and recreational use are legal. 


Thank you for these reasonable and deeply personal comments. I think that if God created it and it can bring healing or true relief, then how is that sinful?

My prayers for your wife.

"Lord have mercy."



Selam
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JMTRD6 on March 09, 2013, 11:21:36 PM
Thank you for these reasonable and deeply personal comments. I think that if God created it and it can bring healing or true relief, then how is that sinful?

My prayers for your wife.

"Lord have mercy."



Selam

Thank you for the response and your prayers are very appreciated. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on March 10, 2013, 12:49:45 AM
I must say that, for most of my life, I have been very outspoken about my contempt for marijuana use.  I have, as many others on this forum have, equated it to drunkenness (which is a known sin).  However, I have learned to tolerate it and even appreciate it in some situations.  No, I have never used marijuana myself, but it is a FACT that, without marijuana, my wife would be in bed for no less than 50% of her life.  But that doesn't mean that even SHE hasn't questioned whether or not she is sinning.  She has cried many tears over the OP's question, but our spiritual father has assured her that SHE is committing no sin.  What of some of the other "medications" that she has used?  Xanax is commonly used by people to get some sort of high, but it was prescribed to her for anxiety.  She has taken medicine that has caused her to lose hair, memory, and motor function.  To me, that stuff seems FAR worse than the side effects of marijuana.  If marijuana allows my wife to live a somewhat normal and happy life, then I can't see our Lord holding that against her, especially when she uses it so sparingly and with such great concern for her spiritual well being.  As for recreational use, I am still not a fan, but I believe it is up to one's spiritual father to determine whether it is a repentance-worthy sin or not.  By the way, I live in Colorado, where (under state law), medicinal and recreational use are legal. 
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them. some would just need to get out more.could go on with what some lack.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Pericles on March 14, 2013, 11:17:11 AM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Schultz on March 14, 2013, 11:28:15 AM
My only caution toward marijuana is that unless you are growing it yourself, you have no way of knowing for sure where it came from. For all you know, it could have been tampered with or mixed with harmful ingredients to make it more addictive or something. Drug dealers aren't exactly the most honest people, so only a fool would take their word for it. Personally, I'd never take drugs from anyone. If you're going to do them, grow your own. Drug dealers are dangerous people. My grandfather is in jail for probably the rest of his life due to getting in a shootout with some violent "customers."

This is one of the sanest things you've ever posted.

Sorry about your grandfather.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on March 14, 2013, 05:53:26 PM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 14, 2013, 08:05:40 PM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 14, 2013, 11:38:02 PM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital. 
Dude, your stridency is only making you sound... uh... strident.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 15, 2013, 12:51:46 AM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  
Dude, your stridency is only making you sound... uh... strident.
Considering I'm not being harsh, my point of view is not controversial and I'm not being unpleasantly forceful (at least no more than anyone else), strident would be the wrong word of choice.  However, if someone is willfully ignoring the obvious, I can see how that person would feel this way.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 15, 2013, 02:28:11 AM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  
Dude, your stridency is only making you sound... uh... strident.
Considering I'm not being harsh, my point of view is not controversial and I'm not being unpleasantly forceful (at least no more than anyone else), strident would be the wrong word of choice.
No, it's not the wrong word of choice. I chose the word to communicate a very clear message, and it's exactly the word I wish to use. You're starting to sound like a rusty hinge, like fingernails on the chalkboard, like a knife blade on a wine bottle. That, my friend, is the very definition of "strident".

However, if someone is willfully ignoring the obvious, I can see how that person would feel this way.
Thank you for your subtle insinuation that I'm willfully ignoring the obvious. However, you have yet to prove that which you deem so obvious, that the smoking of marijuana even to less than the threshold of intoxication is sinful in and of itself.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 15, 2013, 05:33:35 AM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  
Dude, your stridency is only making you sound... uh... strident.
Considering I'm not being harsh, my point of view is not controversial and I'm not being unpleasantly forceful (at least no more than anyone else), strident would be the wrong word of choice.
No, it's not the wrong word of choice. I chose the word to communicate a very clear message, and it's exactly the word I wish to use. You're starting to sound like a rusty hinge, like fingernails on the chalkboard, like a knife blade on a wine bottle. That, my friend, is the very definition of "strident".

However, if someone is willfully ignoring the obvious, I can see how that person would feel this way.
Thank you for your subtle insinuation that I'm willfully ignoring the obvious. However, you have yet to prove that which you deem so obvious, that the smoking of marijuana even to less than the threshold of intoxication is sinful in and of itself.

According to the definition of the word it is the wrong word, but you can still use it if it pleases you.  There is no law against improper usage of words.  Speaking truth rather than putting sugar on an inedible false to make things more palatable is well worth any silly response or ridicule from anyone.  Trying to keep people from believing stupid things has always been a weakness of mine.  It will continue as long as there are people who lie about the benefits of MJ and ignore all of the dangers.

There was nothing subtle about what I said and it was not toward you.  Please do not read something which is not there or put words in my mouth, thank you.  If I meant you specifically, I would have said as much.  You should know this about me by now.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 15, 2013, 11:26:32 AM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  
Dude, your stridency is only making you sound... uh... strident.
Considering I'm not being harsh, my point of view is not controversial and I'm not being unpleasantly forceful (at least no more than anyone else), strident would be the wrong word of choice.
No, it's not the wrong word of choice. I chose the word to communicate a very clear message, and it's exactly the word I wish to use. You're starting to sound like a rusty hinge, like fingernails on the chalkboard, like a knife blade on a wine bottle. That, my friend, is the very definition of "strident".

However, if someone is willfully ignoring the obvious, I can see how that person would feel this way.
Thank you for your subtle insinuation that I'm willfully ignoring the obvious. However, you have yet to prove that which you deem so obvious, that the smoking of marijuana even to less than the threshold of intoxication is sinful in and of itself.

According to the definition of the word it is the wrong word, but you can still use it if it pleases you.  There is no law against improper usage of words.  Speaking truth rather than putting sugar on an inedible false to make things more palatable is well worth any silly response or ridicule from anyone.  Trying to keep people from believing stupid things has always been a weakness of mine.  It will continue as long as there are people who lie about the benefits of MJ and ignore all of the dangers.
But you haven't offered any proof. "Because I say so" is not proof. Neither is anecdotal evidence. (What aren't you telling us about the family that ate the marijuana brownie?)

There was nothing subtle about what I said and it was not toward you.  Please do not read something which is not there or put words in my mouth, thank you.
I'm not attributing to you things you never said.

If I meant you specifically, I would have said as much.  You should know this about me by now.
You presume too much of me.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on March 15, 2013, 11:59:46 AM

Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital. 

Not sure if serious...  ;D
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on March 15, 2013, 12:01:14 PM
If falling short is a sin, if we are to protect and not hurt our bodies as the temples for the Holy Spirit, it is clear that there are many substances can be used in a sinful manner. I will give some examples.

Water: Too much water can cause water intoxication and kill you.

Food: Too much food can make you obese, leading to a host of complications/diseases.

Alcohol: We all know the bad effects of alcohol. Plus it is addictive for many people.

Tobacco products: Ditto.

Illegal substances: Most are illegal because they hurt your health.

Marijuana (legal or otherwise):

"Abusing marijuana can result in problems with memory, learning and social behavior. It can interfere with family, school, work and other activities.

Scientific studies are underway to test the safety and usefulness of cannabis compounds for treating certain medical conditions. Currently, smoking marijuana is not recommended for the treatment of any disease or condition." NIH: National Institute on Drug Abuse

"Marijuana contains chemicals that can change how the brain works. And the science, though still evolving in terms of long-term consequences of marijuana use, is clear: marijuana use is associated with addiction, respiratory and mental illness, poor motor performance, and cognitive impairment, among other negative effects. This is especially troubling since research suggests one-in-11 people who ever used marijuana will become dependent on it; this risk rises to one-in-six when use begins in adolescence.   In 2009, marijuana was involved in 376,000 emergency department visits nationwide." ONDCP

"Persistent cannabis users show neuropsychological decline from childhood to midlife." http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abstract (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abstract)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on March 15, 2013, 03:08:09 PM
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.
MJ isn't dangerous at all.  Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital. 
The potency of pot foods is often underestimated. Don't see your point, though.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on March 15, 2013, 03:23:52 PM
The only way you can die from eating a marijuna brownie is when you choke in one.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on March 15, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
The only way you can die from eating a marijuna brownie is when you choke in one.

Ah, I beg to differ. What if the eater of said brownie is a type 2 diabetic?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 15, 2013, 09:36:14 PM

Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  

Not sure if serious...  ;D

I was serious.  It was in the news a couple of days ago.  A kid brought a MJ brownie to school and shared it with friends.  The kids had to be rushed to the hospital.  They were investigating the incident at the time and additional info was not available, but I think we can presume it was the result of MJ consuming parents and an unsuspecting child.  Perhaps not.

Quote
COSTA MESA, Calif. – Seven elementary school students are recovering in Costa Mesa after they took a bite of a marijuana brownie that a boy brought to school.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/03/13/elementary-students-rushed-to-hospital-after-eating-marijuana-laced-brownies/#ixzz2NfAvN0eM
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 15, 2013, 09:45:08 PM
The only way you can die from eating a marijuna brownie is when you choke in one.

Who said anything about death?  I have gone to calls where a people have shot themselves in and lost half of their faces without death.  It doesn't mean they could not have died from it.  It just means they did not.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on March 15, 2013, 10:00:01 PM

Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  

Not sure if serious...  ;D

I was serious.  It was in the news a couple of days ago.  A kid brought a MJ brownie to school and shared it with friends.  The kids had to be rushed to the hospital.  They were investigating the incident at the time and additional info was not available, but I think we can presume it was the result of MJ consuming parents and an unsuspecting child.  Perhaps not.

Quote
COSTA MESA, Calif. – Seven elementary school students are recovering in Costa Mesa after they took a bite of a marijuana brownie that a boy brought to school.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/03/13/elementary-students-rushed-to-hospital-after-eating-marijuana-laced-brownies/#ixzz2NfAvN0eM
Seeing as how (a) the only source I can find about this is your article; (b) said article is from Fox news- and I trust their reporting on anything school related to be about the same level as the handouts on the dangers of D&D that used to go around my churches in the '80s; and (c) the article itself reports the only side effects being dizziness, nausea, and vomiting which you're post about the "kids were rushed to the hospital" was in response to:
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.

I'm really not seeing your point.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 15, 2013, 11:09:24 PM

Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  

Not sure if serious...  ;D

I was serious.  It was in the news a couple of days ago.  A kid brought a MJ brownie to school and shared it with friends.  The kids had to be rushed to the hospital.  They were investigating the incident at the time and additional info was not available, but I think we can presume it was the result of MJ consuming parents and an unsuspecting child.  Perhaps not.

Quote
COSTA MESA, Calif. – Seven elementary school students are recovering in Costa Mesa after they took a bite of a marijuana brownie that a boy brought to school.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/03/13/elementary-students-rushed-to-hospital-after-eating-marijuana-laced-brownies/#ixzz2NfAvN0eM
Seeing as how (a) the only source I can find about this is your article; (b) said article is from Fox news- and I trust their reporting on anything school related to be about the same level as the handouts on the dangers of D&D that used to go around my churches in the '80s; and (c) the article itself reports the only side effects being dizziness, nausea, and vomiting which you're post about the "kids were rushed to the hospital" was in response to:
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.

I'm really not seeing your point.
Strange, when looked it up on Google, I found several articles.  Try the HuffPost if you prefer, they wrote about it as well.  If those side effects dont bother you, I suppose smoking Spice (pseudo-marijuana) is not an issue either?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on March 15, 2013, 11:24:46 PM

Just ask the parents of the kids who ate from one MJ brownie and all had to be taken to the hospital.  

Not sure if serious...  ;D

I was serious.  It was in the news a couple of days ago.  A kid brought a MJ brownie to school and shared it with friends.  The kids had to be rushed to the hospital.  They were investigating the incident at the time and additional info was not available, but I think we can presume it was the result of MJ consuming parents and an unsuspecting child.  Perhaps not.

Quote
COSTA MESA, Calif. – Seven elementary school students are recovering in Costa Mesa after they took a bite of a marijuana brownie that a boy brought to school.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/03/13/elementary-students-rushed-to-hospital-after-eating-marijuana-laced-brownies/#ixzz2NfAvN0eM
Seeing as how (a) the only source I can find about this is your article; (b) said article is from Fox news- and I trust their reporting on anything school related to be about the same level as the handouts on the dangers of D&D that used to go around my churches in the '80s; and (c) the article itself reports the only side effects being dizziness, nausea, and vomiting which you're post about the "kids were rushed to the hospital" was in response to:
Well some people here wouldn't recognize marijuana it it hit them.
I think most here assume its the same as being drunk, however thats no where near the effect it has. No matter how much you smoke your not going to be 'out-of-control', if you smoke too much you'll just go to sleep.
yeah it's not the same.  and yes, usually if you take one too many hits you will probably just sleep.  However, depending on the form, you can get into bad shape dizzy or sick-wise.  I once over-partook of a very potent cookie and threw up several times and got very, very dizzy and panicky.

I'm really not seeing your point.
Strange, when looked it up on Google, I found several articles.  Try the HuffPost if you prefer, they wrote about it as well.  If those side effects dont bother you, I suppose smoking Spice (pseudo-marijuana) is not an issue either?

It's not so much that the side-effects don't bother me, as you posted about the school kids being rushed to the hospital as a response to someone else speaking of those side-effects- as if the kids were in some sort of mortal danger. In reality, I suspect that children had eaten the brownies and were rushed to the emergency room for fear of some type of poisoning- a reasonable course of action when children start exhibiting those symptoms after eating food- and the marijuana wasn't detected until later.

The article is certainly sensational, but as a cautionary tale about the dangers of marijuana doesn't go any further than Deep Roots' post.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on March 16, 2013, 02:00:51 PM
Yeah my point was that consuming pot-food CAN be scary if you over partake, in part because the oil that is used to make it (if it's good stuff) is often more potent than smoking it.

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on March 19, 2013, 08:53:20 AM
Is marijuana lenten?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Arachne on March 19, 2013, 09:18:38 AM
Is marijuana lenten?

It's vegan and gluten-free. :P Unless it's GM. Is there such a thing as GM weed?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on March 19, 2013, 09:35:49 AM
Is marijuana lenten?
I put it in the alcohol category when it comes to fasting.  As I said earlier, it's probably been a year and a half since i've smoked anyway.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on March 19, 2013, 10:56:27 AM
Is marijuana lenten?

It's vegan and gluten-free. :P Unless it's GM. Is there such a thing as GM weed?

So that's a yes?  :angel:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on March 19, 2013, 10:59:06 AM
Is marijuana lenten?

It's vegan and gluten-free. :P Unless it's GM. Is there such a thing as GM weed?

So that's a yes?  :angel:

You can have it on Annunciation and Palm Sunday.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Schultz on March 19, 2013, 11:15:21 AM
Is marijuana lenten?

It's vegan and gluten-free. :P Unless it's GM. Is there such a thing as GM weed?

So that's a yes?  :angel:

You can have it on Annunciation and Palm Sunday.

This conversation is making me hungry for fish.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on March 19, 2013, 11:18:22 AM
Is marijuana lenten?

It's vegan and gluten-free. :P Unless it's GM. Is there such a thing as GM weed?

So that's a yes?  :angel:

You can have it on Annunciation and Palm Sunday.

 ???

It's a plant, not fish.

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Orthodox11 on March 19, 2013, 01:17:28 PM
Is marijuana lenten?

Only if you eat it

Quote
I put it in the alcohol category when it comes to fasting.  As I said earlier, it's probably been a year and a half since i've smoked anyway.

Drinking alcohol is allowed, but drunkeness is always a no no. So you could have marijuana on Saturdays and Sundays of Lent, but not enough to actually get high  :)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 20, 2013, 04:59:30 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects. 

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on March 20, 2013, 05:45:20 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects. 

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing. 


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 20, 2013, 06:02:12 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on March 20, 2013, 08:09:45 AM
I watched clips of "Reefer Madness" last night. Wow, man, I didn't know, like, that marihuana was so totally like, demonic, man!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on March 20, 2013, 08:11:38 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.

But that's just the US. There's a huge world out there.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 20, 2013, 10:57:54 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on March 20, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.

I'm sorry, but "conspiracy"? Yes, it is true that many people want to be able to use marijuana recreationally, and they see legalization for medicinal purposes as being the first step toward changing American society's perceptions regarding the drug (due mainly to the racist and reactionary propaganda that followed the prohibition of the drug). This does not change the fact that marijuana does have at least one valid medicinal purpose that is worth any amount of recreational use that slips through the cracks: chemotherapy patients and others who have such violent reactions to their life saving medications that smoking marijuana is the only way that they can keep down any amount of food. DEA approved THC pills manufactured by Pfizer are not the answer- pills take to long to be broken down and absorbed by the body, and these patients end up regurgitating them long before any PROVEN anti-nausea can take effect.

People abuse all sorts of medicinal drugs recreationally. Thought processes such as yours are the reason that many doctors are afraid to prescribe the levels of pain medication their patients need rather than run afoul of the Drug Czar's crackdown on "pill mills". Oh dear Lord, we can't ever run the risk that someone might be abusing a drug- we must make it so that everyone suffers to protect one person from the ill effects of getting high! Won't someone please think of the chlidren!!!!

I would rather this "conspiracy" succeed and Americans be weened off their knee-jerk, ethnicist, temperance era fear of intoxication. Some people choose to get high. Some people go for a second (and third, and twelfth) glass of wine after dinner. Some people choose to over-eat or eat the wrong type of foods. Some people choose to do nothing after they get home after work but watch endless hours of reality TV. Some people use the internet for an endless stream of pornography. People make bad choices. Making those choices illegal- say by banning fast food, television sets, or the internet- is not the way to go about ensuring that people make the right choices, and only punishes those who use these things responsibly. And in the case of prohibitionist attitudes, it ensures that people who could have their suffering alleviated are made to suffer in order to ensure that one or two junkies have to go to illegal extremes in order to get their fix.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 21, 2013, 02:49:35 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.

But that's just the US. There's a huge world out there.
I don't worry about places I don't live for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 21, 2013, 02:49:58 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 21, 2013, 03:07:52 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 21, 2013, 04:09:51 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.  Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on March 21, 2013, 09:58:21 AM
I don't worry about places I don't live for this sort of thing.

So, according to you, smoking marijuana is sinful in some countries and isn't in others?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 21, 2013, 11:07:15 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.
My eyes are open, Kerdy, open to the fact that you expect everything you say to be believed on your authority alone. If things are as obvious as you say, then maybe you can show us with proof from outside sources.

Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
I never asked you to stonewall, yet that's what I'm getting.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 21, 2013, 09:28:41 PM
I don't worry about places I don't live for this sort of thing.

So, according to you, smoking marijuana is sinful in some countries and isn't in others?
Um, not even close.  Are you even reading what I am posting?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 21, 2013, 09:36:40 PM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.
My eyes are open, Kerdy, open to the fact that you expect everything you say to be believed on your authority alone. If things are as obvious as you say, then maybe you can show us with proof from outside sources.

Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
I never asked you to stonewall, yet that's what I'm getting.
Squash tastes bad.  Lots of people agree.  Do you require proof of this as well or will the twisted looks on our faces suffice?  There are no peer reviewed studies, there is no documentation to research, just the fact people say they don't like squash.  Are they not telling the truth because you don't want to believe them?  

This whole "I'll say something, when someone disagrees I will demand tangible evidence for their claim and say they should, even if its obvious, but never contribute myself" game is a little silly.  You probably should no longer do it, but it's up to you.  Besides, you ask for political information on a none political thread, since you clearly desire to ignore what has been posted on this thread.  You know better than to ask for something I can't provide without violating posting rules.  

Believe what you want.  Most people do.  I prefer to believe what is true, but that is a personal choice I have made.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on March 21, 2013, 10:15:32 PM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.
My eyes are open, Kerdy, open to the fact that you expect everything you say to be believed on your authority alone. If things are as obvious as you say, then maybe you can show us with proof from outside sources.

Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
I never asked you to stonewall, yet that's what I'm getting.
Squash tastes bad.  Lots of people agree.  Do you require proof of this as well or will the twisted looks on our faces suffice?  There are no peer reviewed studies, there is no documentation to research, just the fact people say they don't like squash.  Are they not telling the truth because you don't want to believe them?  

This whole "I'll say something, when someone disagrees I will demand tangible evidence for their claim and say they should, even if its obvious, but never contribute myself" game is a little silly.  You probably should no longer do it, but it's up to you.  Besides, you ask for political information on a none political thread, since you clearly desire to ignore what has been posted on this thread.  You know better than to ask for something I can't provide without violating posting rules.  

Believe what you want.  Most people do.  I prefer to believe what is true, but that is a personal choice I have made.

Saying "Marijuana use is a sin" or "has no medicinal benefits" or "the only advocates for medicinal use want to use it for recreational purposes" and "squash tastes bad" are two completely different categories. The latter is a matter of preference- there are plenty of people who find that squash tastes quite delicious. Even for myself, who does not under any circumstances eat squash, find my objections toward that particular food not to be based on a bad taste but rather a texture that makes me gag and even regurgitate every time I try to swallow it, no matter how good-tasting it might be.

The difference lies between saying "squash tastes bad" and "eating squash is a sin" or "squash has no medical benefits" or " the only advocates for the nutritional value of squash are conspirators who actually enjoy the taste of squash". One needs no qualification beyond the statement the others do.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 22, 2013, 12:58:40 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.
My eyes are open, Kerdy, open to the fact that you expect everything you say to be believed on your authority alone. If things are as obvious as you say, then maybe you can show us with proof from outside sources.

Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
I never asked you to stonewall, yet that's what I'm getting.
Squash tastes bad.  Lots of people agree.  Do you require proof of this as well or will the twisted looks on our faces suffice?  There are no peer reviewed studies, there is no documentation to research, just the fact people say they don't like squash.  Are they not telling the truth because you don't want to believe them?  

This whole "I'll say something, when someone disagrees I will demand tangible evidence for their claim and say they should, even if its obvious, but never contribute myself" game is a little silly.  You probably should no longer do it, but it's up to you.  Besides, you ask for political information on a none political thread, since you clearly desire to ignore what has been posted on this thread.  You know better than to ask for something I can't provide without violating posting rules.  

Believe what you want.  Most people do.  I prefer to believe what is true, but that is a personal choice I have made.

Saying "Marijuana use is a sin" or "has no medicinal benefits" or "the only advocates for medicinal use want to use it for recreational purposes" and "squash tastes bad" are two completely different categories. The latter is a matter of preference- there are plenty of people who find that squash tastes quite delicious. Even for myself, who does not under any circumstances eat squash, find my objections toward that particular food not to be based on a bad taste but rather a texture that makes me gag and even regurgitate every time I try to swallow it, no matter how good-tasting it might be.

The difference lies between saying "squash tastes bad" and "eating squash is a sin" or "squash has no medical benefits" or " the only advocates for the nutritional value of squash are conspirators who actually enjoy the taste of squash". One needs no qualification beyond the statement the others do.
Good job confusing the discussion.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on March 22, 2013, 01:12:56 AM
I don't worry about places I don't live for this sort of thing.

So, according to you, smoking marijuana is sinful in some countries and isn't in others?

Not that that is Kerdy's position, but you have a hard time wrapping your head around this idea, don't you?  8)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on March 22, 2013, 01:34:58 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.
My eyes are open, Kerdy, open to the fact that you expect everything you say to be believed on your authority alone. If things are as obvious as you say, then maybe you can show us with proof from outside sources.

Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
I never asked you to stonewall, yet that's what I'm getting.
Squash tastes bad.  Lots of people agree.  Do you require proof of this as well or will the twisted looks on our faces suffice?  There are no peer reviewed studies, there is no documentation to research, just the fact people say they don't like squash.  Are they not telling the truth because you don't want to believe them?
"Squash tastes bad." = personal opinion

"Smoking marijuana is a sin." = assertion of fact

Personal opinion requires no proof.

Assertion of fact requires proof.

This whole "I'll say something, when someone disagrees I will demand tangible evidence for their claim and say they should, even if its obvious, but never contribute myself" game is a little silly.  You probably should no longer do it, but it's up to you.  Besides, you ask for political information on a none political thread, since you clearly desire to ignore what has been posted on this thread.  You know better than to ask for something I can't provide without violating posting rules.
Asking you to prove why the smoking of marijuana is a sin is not a request for political information.

Believe what you want.  Most people do.  I prefer to believe what is true, but that is a personal choice I have made.
Yet you can't prove it true.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on March 22, 2013, 02:40:37 AM
I think it is now safe to say the whole medicinal marijuana thing was a ruse.  Not only is it being used in this manner by the smallest possible/conceivable percentage of consumers, but I am still waiting for the quality studies revealing its medicinal use and application in the first place, which do not exist.  They do not exist for the same reason there are no existing quality studies on its ill effects.  There are; however, multiple studies showing the extremely high likelihood of negative effects, to which I just read one article in a muscle fitness magazine today warning of those effects.  

But, as most of us thinking people already knew, this was a sham, a lie, a ploy, to get MJ legalized for recreational consumption.  Just look at the discussion on this thread as evidence the use of MJ is not categorically considered medicinal, but rather for the purpose of getting high.  This is clear, this is simple, and this is truth.  The legalization of MJ has followed the same process as every other type of reckless proposal a certain type/group of people have proposed in the past.  The really depressing part is people were dumb enough to fall for it…again.  At this point I think people should at least start being honest about the whole thing.  


How is this conspiracy theory related to sinfulness (or not) of marijuana?

Are lies not sin?  Is the lie marijuana is for medicinal purposes to get it legalized for recreational use not a sin?  Are not the shifty statements of "there is no proof MJ is bad" a deception as people know there is equally (or less so) no proof MJ is as they attempt to describe it also sinful?  I could go on, but the painting is on the wall if anyone cares to look.  The intentional lack of honesty regarding MJ is sinful as well.   Let us not be so narrow-minded.

Conspiracy?  Only if truth is a conspiracy.
Usually, if something really is true, you wouldn't mind naming the sources you've been reading that prove it true.
::)
So, then, you want everything you post here to be accepted on the authority of sic Kerdy dixit (thus saith Kerdy)?

Or, you could open your eyes and see things for what they are.
My eyes are open, Kerdy, open to the fact that you expect everything you say to be believed on your authority alone. If things are as obvious as you say, then maybe you can show us with proof from outside sources.

Either way.  It really makes no difference to me. Just remember when people get what they ask for, they really shouldn't complain about the results which follow.
I never asked you to stonewall, yet that's what I'm getting.
Squash tastes bad.  Lots of people agree.  Do you require proof of this as well or will the twisted looks on our faces suffice?  There are no peer reviewed studies, there is no documentation to research, just the fact people say they don't like squash.  Are they not telling the truth because you don't want to believe them?
"Squash tastes bad." = personal opinion

"Smoking marijuana is a sin." = assertion of fact

Personal opinion requires no proof.

Assertion of fact requires proof.

This whole "I'll say something, when someone disagrees I will demand tangible evidence for their claim and say they should, even if its obvious, but never contribute myself" game is a little silly.  You probably should no longer do it, but it's up to you.  Besides, you ask for political information on a none political thread, since you clearly desire to ignore what has been posted on this thread.  You know better than to ask for something I can't provide without violating posting rules.
Asking you to prove why the smoking of marijuana is a sin is not a request for political information.

Believe what you want.  Most people do.  I prefer to believe what is true, but that is a personal choice I have made.
Yet you can't prove it true.
Your dislike of the evidence provided in no way invalidates that evidence.

But, I suppose I'm done here.  People have always, will continue, and have in this thread, attempted to justify wrongs which they personally want to be rights.  It's what people do, the stain of sin on human flesh.  Folks can justify their sin to soften the guilt all they want, but they still know its sin.  It's always amused me how people fight with such ferocity to convince themselves of something.  

Oh, I almost forgot...you can't prove God is true either, Peter, but that doesn't change the fact He is.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Феофан on March 22, 2013, 10:04:03 AM
I asked my priest once during confession if smoking marijuana was a sin and he said "I don't know if it's a sin but it's bad for you, for your mind".  He said this to me with such obvious concern and care for my well-being that the issue has never come up again for me.  Of course this proves nothing but ...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shamati on June 01, 2013, 03:23:18 PM
Usling marijuana is not a sin and it is permitted for Mankind to make use of all herbs and plants upon God's earth as commanded by God in Genesis!
What is a sin is for a human being to put his or her authority above that of almighty God and believe himself to be more fit than the very definition of Wisdom: God to prohibit something in direct contradiction to His decree.

As humans we should use all plants for I believe not one is without use for man and especially cannabis have been proven good for certain conditions.

however! To smoke marijuana can be very harmful for your minds ability to remain stable under stressful situations as well as many other things. It's simply harmful & should only be used in very humble amounts if used recreationally.

You should of course comply with national law but we must also realize that governments are also sinful. For example governments now permit gay marriage and abortion and just because they're LAW doesnt mean they're infalliable. The Holy scriptures & the writings of the wise men of Old should be consulted with all problems.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Alpo on June 01, 2013, 04:02:51 PM
As humans we should use all plants

Wait, what? We should use lethal plants?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: pmpn8rGPT on June 01, 2013, 04:09:37 PM
As humans we should use all plants

Wait, what? We should use lethal plants?
I'm sure many lethal plants have a purpose for humans.  I'm no botanist, but I would not be surprised.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shamati on June 01, 2013, 11:03:07 PM
As humans we should use all plants

Wait, what? We should use lethal plants?
its not like I said we should all start to randomly munch away in a garden of poisonous mushrooms. However even that which may be poisonous for direct digestion can contain things that if limited to a specific small dose by professionals can be good and even life saving.
Eating cannabis does not get you high and is one of the most effective medicines on the planet. Marijuana has been used by mankind and has been common in human society for thousands of years and just exande we happen to live in a moralistic anglophile civilization that forbids anything that does not comply to its cultural boundaries doesnt mean that it's either sound or right considering that in the broad sweep of history this civilization in it's current form is only a couple of hundreds of years (and is declining now) and is an anomaly.

Personally I dont think any governmental body has any right what so ever to tell a sovereign human being what out of the fruits of the earth is permissable to use, as long as it does not kill anyone else. To think that a government has the right to forbid us to eat/smoke a naturally occuring plant because it's narrow cultural frame of reference find the behaviour overdosage might produce in certain individuals "in-decent" seems to me as borderline idolatrous and an affront to the creator.  Consider that alcohol is rated the 2nd most dangerous drug in the world after injecting heroin and one realises that this is really not a problem with the substance itself but a cultural problem.
To move towards legalisation in the western world is well on its way and is the only sane option since governments really have no bussiness walking around earth as a benevolent creator telling the soil which plants not to bring up and telling creatures what natural plants not to digest.
The reason I believe this so strongly is that marijuana needs no chemical processing to be used while alcohol needs a rather complex process to be produced.

I would consult what church fathers and saints have said about this in the past or about alcohol as a comparison.
Rember also that in roman civilization (at least early one) drugs were very common among all classes of society and marijuana would probably be viewed more as a medicine 1st, recreational drug 2nd in these cultures. I know Opium was and its a far more powerful drug than marijuana as it constitutes the basic substance from which morphine and heroin was later produced through chemical manipulation and refinement. But most of these plants are alot less potent in their natural form and that is the only way I think we should use them for any recreational purposes (if you cant avoid recreational drug-use that is). Most people se recreational drugs in their lives but in the west this has been limited as much as possible to alcohol. But some people can never feel comfortable with alcohol as its effects in direct correlation with the dosage seem to be only a lack of balance and a significant increase of general stupidity. Marijuana however, while relaxing slightly opens up the mind to a deeper side of the human self and is very unlikely to result in violent behaviour of any sort. This has always been the go-to drug for certain kind of people in society and making this illegal has only bad consequences. When a 16-year old want to smoke weed in most of todays western societies it is necessary for him to come into contact with criminals as the plant is outlawed. As well as stigmatizing the 16-year Old in the eyes of general society by alienation from generally accepted culturural behaviour (increase in LACK of belonging) it drastically increases the possibility of personalities who in normal circumstances might have never considered a criminal lifestyle to now identify with criminal culture as it may seem more accepting of his life than general law-abiding culture. It also puts people not naturally prone to criminal behaviour or harder drugs to later on (if the habit continues) inevitably be offered to buy heroin, amphetamine, cocaine or other harder drugs and since marijuana is an illegal drug the reasoning might have one consider much harder drugs and eventually result in addiction because for the general society there's not much difference between certain illegal drugs esp. in the eyes of the law while in reality the potency difference between cannabis and cocaine is line between sugar and a bottle of vodka.
It also makes many young people lose trust in the states ability to know what is best for their life when they discover that the effect of alcohol is much more severe & potent than that of marijuana while the latter is illegal
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: jaroslavkourakin on June 12, 2013, 12:08:48 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: jaroslavkourakin on June 12, 2013, 12:10:52 PM
By the way most gangs and cartels and other criminal organizations live simply on the trade of illegalized drugs. So whoever came up with the idea to illegalize drugs is an ignoramus.



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Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 12, 2013, 12:17:10 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 12, 2013, 12:35:41 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?
Why are you trying to hijack this thread? The OP has set the topic of discussion. Let's try to discuss that.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shamati on June 12, 2013, 01:15:12 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD. 
Yes I've heard the same about jews becoming religious after having witnessed the celestial angels carrying orthodox jewish "Holy, Holy, Holy" prayers towards Heaven.
I myself opened up to the fact that there is much of reality we do not percieve from eating "magic mushrooms".

I think hat it comes down to is that there is a general hunger for "Shamanism" or spiritual experiences among people & that todays society completely rejects this as superstition & that the only available options are what is deemed a ritualistic organized religion or drugs, although lately more & more people have started experimenting with buddhist, hindu, taoist & sikh meditational practices as a means to reach a higher state of conscioussness. We have deep inner prayer traditions in christianity too, especially within orthodoxy but at least the western churches seems to have lost the spirituality of religion. At least this is true for the protestant churches I grew up in.

But I would not advice anyone who is genuinely seeking God to so drugs to get a taste but to study the meditational practices of the church fathers & maybe monks with spiritual direction from a priest. Because i for believe it is wise to take shortcuts to experiencing spiritual realms because it's unsafe. It is something one will recieves by the grace of God, as a gift for genuinely praying & meditating & living good & those gifts last for eternity while the effects of drugs only last for so long & might even harm the state of your soul.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: WPM on June 12, 2013, 02:49:37 PM
Not if you're a Rastafari and identify with the Bob Marley smoking culture
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 13, 2013, 04:00:03 AM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD.  
I know people who became faithful spouses in their third marriage after not doing so in the first two.  I also have met women of the night who settle down and had a family.  I even met criminals who stopped committing their crimes, after being out in jail.  That doesn't mean what they did before was ok.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 13, 2013, 04:22:12 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD.  
I know people who became faithful spouses in their third marriage after not doing so in the first two.  I also have met women of the night who settle down and had a family.  I even met criminals who stopped committing their crimes, after being out in jail.  That doesn't mean what they did before was ok.

Yes, except the question is whether or not X is a sin.  Since X is not mentioned in either Scripture or the Fathers, it behooves us to then look for other ways to weigh the merits of X.  One way of doing this is judging X by its fruit, which is why I mentioned some significant positives that have come from X.  The same cannot be said with the examples you gave because we have clear instructions against such from Tradition.

I personally don't advocate LCD or other such, but marijuana is almost as much a grey area as alcohol.  
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: JamesR on June 13, 2013, 05:16:49 PM
I'm just going to add that if we have problems with marijuana, then we should also have a problem with alcohol, tobacco, and even fatty fast-food. And out of these options, marijuana is surprisingly the least harmful, even though it is the most stigmatized and only illegal one. It's also impossible to drink alcohol without harming your liver, whereas marijuana has no observable long term negative effects identified.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on June 13, 2013, 05:58:32 PM
I'm just going to add that if we have problems with marijuana, then we should also have a problem with alcohol, tobacco, and even fatty fast-food. And out of these options, marijuana is surprisingly the least harmful, even though it is the most stigmatized and only illegal one. It's also impossible to drink alcohol without harming your liver, whereas marijuana has no observable long term negative effects identified.

I have a problem with all of those things. Except for some alcohol.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: theistgal on June 13, 2013, 06:25:28 PM
Even good things can be sinful if they're done for the wrong reasons.

Knitting a scarf is sin if you're planning to sell it to raise money for Planned Parenthood.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: orthonorm on June 13, 2013, 07:12:39 PM
I'm just going to add that if we have problems with marijuana, then we should also have a problem with alcohol, tobacco, and even fatty fast-food. And out of these options, marijuana is surprisingly the least harmful, even though it is the most stigmatized and only illegal one. It's also impossible to drink alcohol without harming your liver, whereas marijuana has no observable long term negative effects identified.

I have a problem with all of those things. Except for some alcohol.

Buddy, for you it would probably be easier to list for us what you don't have a problem with.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: orthonorm on June 13, 2013, 07:13:21 PM
Even good things can be sinful if they're done for the wrong reasons.

Knitting a scarf is sin if you're planning to sell it to raise money for Planned Parenthood.

And you wonder why people . . . never mind.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Shiny on June 13, 2013, 07:30:37 PM
I'm just going to add that if we have problems with marijuana, then we should also have a problem with alcohol, tobacco, and even fatty fast-food. And out of these options, marijuana is surprisingly the least harmful, even though it is the most stigmatized and only illegal one. It's also impossible to drink alcohol without harming your liver, whereas marijuana has no observable long term negative effects identified.

I have a problem with all of those things. Except for some alcohol.

Buddy, for you it would probably be easier to list for us what you don't have a problem with.
hahahahhahahahahahahaha

good one brian
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: William on June 13, 2013, 07:36:16 PM
I'm just going to add that if we have problems with marijuana, then we should also have a problem with alcohol, tobacco, and even fatty fast-food. And out of these options, marijuana is surprisingly the least harmful, even though it is the most stigmatized and only illegal one. It's also impossible to drink alcohol without harming your liver, whereas marijuana has no observable long term negative effects identified.

I have a problem with all of those things. Except for some alcohol.

Buddy, for you it would probably be easier to list for us what you don't have a problem with.

Praying, bread, water.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on June 13, 2013, 07:43:20 PM
I don't smoke, and neither should you (unless you want to)!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on June 13, 2013, 11:13:14 PM
Even good things can be sinful if they're done for the wrong reasons.

Knitting a scarf is sin if you're planning to sell it to raise money for Planned Parenthood.

And you wonder why people . . . never mind.
you didn't know that was a sin, did you?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 14, 2013, 12:17:39 AM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD.  
I know people who became faithful spouses in their third marriage after not doing so in the first two.  I also have met women of the night who settle down and had a family.  I even met criminals who stopped committing their crimes, after being out in jail.  That doesn't mean what they did before was ok.

Yes, except the question is whether or not X is a sin.  Since X is not mentioned in either Scripture or the Fathers, it behooves us to then look for other ways to weigh the merits of X.  One way of doing this is judging X by its fruit, which is why I mentioned some significant positives that have come from X.  The same cannot be said with the examples you gave because we have clear instructions against such from Tradition.

I personally don't advocate LCD or other such, but marijuana is almost as much a grey area as alcohol.  
I made a mistake and posted to this thread forgetting I said I would not.  I apologize; however, the same thing could be done showing the negatives.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on June 14, 2013, 12:20:25 AM
^I didn't think somebody would quote GMK in a non-ironic fashion in their sig. awesome. LOL
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: NicholasMyra on June 14, 2013, 12:54:08 AM
^I didn't think somebody would quote GMK in a non-ironic fashion in their sig. awesome. LOL
I didn't think somebody would quote St. Paul through Gebre.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 14, 2013, 01:15:02 AM
^I didn't think somebody would quote GMK in a non-ironic fashion in their sig. awesome. LOL
I didn't think somebody would quote St. Paul through Gebre.
I didn't think grown men played children's games.  Looks like we are all surprised today.  Not only has this quote been there for some time (you guys are super observant), but if someone else made this statement, a reference would help.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on June 14, 2013, 02:11:27 AM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD.  
I know people who became faithful spouses in their third marriage after not doing so in the first two.  I also have met women of the night who settle down and had a family.  I even met criminals who stopped committing their crimes, after being out in jail.  That doesn't mean what they did before was ok.

Yes, except the question is whether or not X is a sin.  Since X is not mentioned in either Scripture or the Fathers, it behooves us to then look for other ways to weigh the merits of X.  One way of doing this is judging X by its fruit, which is why I mentioned some significant positives that have come from X.  The same cannot be said with the examples you gave because we have clear instructions against such from Tradition.

I personally don't advocate LCD or other such, but marijuana is almost as much a grey area as alcohol.  

I wouldn't advocate LCD either. Plasma gives much clearer definition from all angles and no motion blurring  :laugh:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: NicholasMyra on June 14, 2013, 03:32:13 AM
^I didn't think somebody would quote GMK in a non-ironic fashion in their sig. awesome. LOL
I didn't think somebody would quote St. Paul through Gebre.
I didn't think grown men played children's games.  Looks like we are all surprised today.  Not only has this quote been there for some time (you guys are super observant), but if someone else made this statement, a reference would help.
...what
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 14, 2013, 02:01:15 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD.  
I know people who became faithful spouses in their third marriage after not doing so in the first two.  I also have met women of the night who settle down and had a family.  I even met criminals who stopped committing their crimes, after being out in jail.  That doesn't mean what they did before was ok.

Yes, except the question is whether or not X is a sin.  Since X is not mentioned in either Scripture or the Fathers, it behooves us to then look for other ways to weigh the merits of X.  One way of doing this is judging X by its fruit, which is why I mentioned some significant positives that have come from X.  The same cannot be said with the examples you gave because we have clear instructions against such from Tradition.

I personally don't advocate LCD or other such, but marijuana is almost as much a grey area as alcohol.  

I wouldn't advocate LCD either. Plasma gives much clearer definition from all angles and no motion blurring  :laugh:

LSD, smart-alec!

Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on June 14, 2013, 02:16:15 PM
The topic should have been "is it a sin to be high?" and we would not have the political/economical/medical discussion about it. Marijuana is psychoactive, unlike alcohol but like mushrooms, cactus and bark.

So may I ask then, is it a sin to be high and reach alternate states of consciousness?

I know of some people who became Christians after getting high on LSD.  
I know people who became faithful spouses in their third marriage after not doing so in the first two.  I also have met women of the night who settle down and had a family.  I even met criminals who stopped committing their crimes, after being out in jail.  That doesn't mean what they did before was ok.

Yes, except the question is whether or not X is a sin.  Since X is not mentioned in either Scripture or the Fathers, it behooves us to then look for other ways to weigh the merits of X.  One way of doing this is judging X by its fruit, which is why I mentioned some significant positives that have come from X.  The same cannot be said with the examples you gave because we have clear instructions against such from Tradition.

I personally don't advocate LCD or other such, but marijuana is almost as much a grey area as alcohol.  

I wouldn't advocate LCD either. Plasma gives much clearer definition from all angles and no motion blurring  :laugh:

LSD, smart-alec!


Oh, that's a LOT more motion blur. Although it does do away with the need for 3D glasses....
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Velsigne on June 15, 2013, 03:28:11 AM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you

When you get off the bong long enough to spell 'pot' get back to us.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: theistgal on June 15, 2013, 09:21:21 AM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you

When you get off the bong long enough to spell 'pot' get back to us.

To be fair, there are plenty of people around here who don't need pot to misspell words and use lousy grammar.  :police:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on June 15, 2013, 12:07:02 PM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you

When you get off the bong long enough to spell 'pot' get back to us.

To be fair, there are plenty of people around here who don't need pot to misspell words and use lousy grammar.  :police:

Yeah, one guy in this thread can't even load an avatar correctly, and he still has the nerve to call people out for spelling mistakes. Ha! What a world!  :P
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: jaroslavkourakin on June 21, 2013, 06:54:57 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 21, 2013, 06:57:10 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on June 21, 2013, 09:21:33 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.
I don't think this was as powerful or convincing as you thought it was.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: PeterTheAleut on June 21, 2013, 09:23:45 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Are you Orthodox? If not, then what qualifies you to post this on the Faith Issues board?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on June 21, 2013, 09:26:19 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Are you Orthodox? If not, then what qualifies you to post this on the Faith Issues board?
wait, what?  what is the point of your posting that to Jaros?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Santagranddad on June 21, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Are you Orthodox? If not, then what qualifies you to post this on the Faith Issues board?

The doors, the doors  :o
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on June 21, 2013, 09:34:36 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Are you Orthodox? If not, then what qualifies you to post this on the Faith Issues board?

The doors, the doors  :o
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 22, 2013, 04:02:14 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.
I don't think this was as powerful or convincing as you thought it was.
It was not intended as such.  Simply to reveal this type of foolishness doesn't work when applied to anything else outside the imagination on the advocate for that specific subject.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on June 22, 2013, 05:34:12 AM
many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Women can be detrimental to a person's quality of life in a lot more ways than just transmidding STDs, you know.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 22, 2013, 05:38:23 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Yet, God doesn't prohibit men from having women.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 22, 2013, 06:54:45 AM
many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Women can be detrimental to a person's quality of life in a lot more ways than just transmidding STDs, you know.
Which has nothing to do with what I posted, but yes they can. As well as men for women.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 22, 2013, 06:55:32 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Yet, God doesn't prohibit men from having women.
Singular woman, no.  Plural women, yes.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on June 23, 2013, 06:06:02 PM
Recently, the OCF at my college was debating whether smoking marijuana was a sin.  I was wondering what any of your thoughts were regarding "smoking poit"

thank you

When you get off the bong long enough to spell 'pot' get back to us.

Using alleged emmanualmelo's intoxication as an argument in discussion is a blatant personal attack and as such  will not be tolerated in the Public Fora. Next time you engage in similar action, you will receive an official warning.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 24, 2013, 08:58:49 PM
"Chronic marijuana use may cause inflammation in the brain that leads to problems with coordination and learning, a new study in animals suggests."

http://health.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=31737&external=2205353.proteus.fma

I realize it isnt conclusive, buuuuuut..

Could we have jumped a little too soon?  Maybe?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: FormerReformer on June 25, 2013, 04:40:04 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Yet, God doesn't prohibit men from having women.
Singular woman, no.  Plural women, yes.

Must.... Resist.... GaaaaAAAAGGHHH!

Plural "men" it's possibly okay.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 25, 2013, 06:11:36 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Yet, God doesn't prohibit men from having women.
Singular woman, no.  Plural women, yes.

Must.... Resist.... GaaaaAAAAGGHHH!

Plural "men" it's possibly okay.
What...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: sprtslvr1973 on June 25, 2013, 07:10:30 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: orthonorm on June 25, 2013, 07:49:13 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.

Men, lets consider God has put millions of attractive and willing women out there for us.  Yes, some of them have VD, but many do not and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless you do not use a condom.

Yet, God doesn't prohibit men from having women.
Singular woman, no.  Plural women, yes.

So slavery is back?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on June 25, 2013, 10:01:21 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Are you Orthodox? If not, then what qualifies you to post this on the Faith Issues board?
wait, what?  what is the point of your posting that to Jaros?
Answer:
"* Faith Issues -- This forum is for the discussion of issues pertaining to the Orthodox Faith (EO, OO, Old-Cal).  Discussion of topics by those of other faiths should be restricted in this area; this is especially true viz-a-viz their own faith (i.e. non-Orthodox faiths), on which they should only comment to correct misunderstandings or misstatements, not to further their agenda or dispute Orthodox teachings (they should go to the Free-For-All or the Private fora for that)." http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules)
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 25, 2013, 10:17:44 AM
Let us consider the fact that God has put mushrooms and weed out there for us. Yes, there are poisonuos things out there, but these are not pisonuos and do not seem to detriment a persons quality of life unless they already are mentally instable.
Are you Orthodox? If not, then what qualifies you to post this on the Faith Issues board?
wait, what?  what is the point of your posting that to Jaros?
Answer:
"* Faith Issues -- This forum is for the discussion of issues pertaining to the Orthodox Faith (EO, OO, Old-Cal).  Discussion of topics by those of other faiths should be restricted in this area; this is especially true viz-a-viz their own faith (i.e. non-Orthodox faiths), on which they should only comment to correct misunderstandings or misstatements, not to further their agenda or dispute Orthodox teachings (they should go to the Free-For-All or the Private fora for that)." http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules)

Finally somebody said it.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 25, 2013, 10:28:47 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed? 

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on June 25, 2013, 10:39:16 AM
Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on June 25, 2013, 08:10:51 PM
"You can't stop smoking? What is impossible for man is possible with God's help. Just firmly decide to quit, realizing how harmful it is for the soul and the body, since it weakens the soul, and increases and strengthens the passions, darkens the mind, and destroys physical health with a slow death." St. Ambrose of Optina

Who are we to argue with a Saint of the Church? Lord of mercy on those who try to justify this passion as not being a sin. It is the incense of the Devil, filling your Holy Temple with filth and death to the soul.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 26, 2013, 01:14:57 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed? 

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated. 
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on June 26, 2013, 01:30:37 AM
"You can't stop smoking? What is impossible for man is possible with God's help. Just firmly decide to quit, realizing how harmful it is for the soul and the body, since it weakens the soul, and increases and strengthens the passions, darkens the mind, and destroys physical health with a slow death." St. Ambrose of Optina

Who are we to argue with a Saint of the Church? Lord of mercy on those who try to justify this passion as not being a sin. It is the incense of the Devil, filling your Holy Temple with filth and death to the soul.

St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, in his book The Arena, approached the subject differently. He said tobacco use was a bad habit, but that if a monk couldn't break from it, that he should at least do it in such a way as to not tempt his fellow monks. I doubt he would have said that it was permissible, if not ideal, to do it in private, had he thought it a sin that was "filling your Holy Temple with filth and death to the soul".
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 26, 2013, 07:57:18 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed? 

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated. 
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses. 

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 26, 2013, 08:01:23 AM
"You can't stop smoking? What is impossible for man is possible with God's help. Just firmly decide to quit, realizing how harmful it is for the soul and the body, since it weakens the soul, and increases and strengthens the passions, darkens the mind, and destroys physical health with a slow death." St. Ambrose of Optina

Who are we to argue with a Saint of the Church? Lord of mercy on those who try to justify this passion as not being a sin. It is the incense of the Devil, filling your Holy Temple with filth and death to the soul.

The quote of St. Amborse you gave does not appear to be about the use of pot in general.  In other words, he it doesn't look like he is saying it is against the Church. Rather, he is addressing an addiction. Watch, I will modify it for alcohol:

"You can't stop drinking? What is impossible for man is possible with God's help. Just firmly decide to quit, realizing how harmful it is for the soul and the body, since it weakens the soul, and increases and strengthens the passions, darkens the mind, and destroys physical health with a slow death."

Is the quote still true? Yes.  Can we still drink? yes.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on June 26, 2013, 08:28:17 AM
"You can't stop smoking? What is impossible for man is possible with God's help. Just firmly decide to quit, realizing how harmful it is for the soul and the body, since it weakens the soul, and increases and strengthens the passions, darkens the mind, and destroys physical health with a slow death." St. Ambrose of Optina

Who are we to argue with a Saint of the Church? Lord of mercy on those who try to justify this passion as not being a sin. It is the incense of the Devil, filling your Holy Temple with filth and death to the soul.

The quote of St. Amborse you gave does not appear to be about the use of pot in general.  In other words, he it doesn't look like he is saying it is against the Church. Rather, he is addressing an addiction. Watch, I will modify it for alcohol:

"You can't stop drinking? What is impossible for man is possible with God's help. Just firmly decide to quit, realizing how harmful it is for the soul and the body, since it weakens the soul, and increases and strengthens the passions, darkens the mind, and destroys physical health with a slow death."

Is the quote still true? Yes.  Can we still drink? yes.

As I said, I pray for those who try to justify a sin, for it is not me they need to answer to, but our Lord Jesus Christ, what will people say then?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Cyrillic on June 26, 2013, 08:40:24 AM
Who are we to argue with a Saint of the Church?

Seriously?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 26, 2013, 08:45:02 AM
As I said, I pray for those who try to justify a sin, for it is not me they need to answer to, but our Lord Jesus Christ, what will people say then?


The saint in question was talking about addiction to smoking.  This topic is about usage of marijuana in general.  Please read what I wrote.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Malina on June 26, 2013, 03:24:21 PM
Of course smoking is a sin. Because of marijuana is a drug and it can damage health.
Everything that leading to damage could be consider as a sin, because God created us for life and we don`t have a right to kill ourselves with drugs.
To use marijuana like tools for cloth is not a sin, because such clothing could not lead to death.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: WPM on June 26, 2013, 04:21:21 PM
The idea is to "quit" for at least 3-4 weeks after consumption balances brain chemistry.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: TimotheosK on June 26, 2013, 05:02:48 PM
I feel the question asked from the outset is not being framed properly, because on it's face it would seem illogical that simply smoking something is a sin. If one digs deeper, realizing that anything that turns us away from God constitutes a sin, the use of marijuana is certainly a sin.

I used marijuana for a few years, thinking that there was nothing wrong with it and only after I had stopped did I realize the detriment it caused.   Setting aside the obvious negative physical health effects, it, along with other drugs, skews one's sense of reality. In doing so, it makes that person more susceptible to the evils encountered on a daily basis - and potentially others.  For example, I encountered dreams of future (insignificant) events, I felt inspired in my writing and allowed my ego to take over.  Anyone who is an avid online video gamer would notice many people consumed by those games who use drugs like marijuana to enhance their experience.  Now I don't mean to say that everyone will have those exact experiences, but those are the types of things that drug use can cause.

In each of our spiritual struggles, we attempt to battle our passions, carrying our own cross to hopefully gain salvation.  How can we expect to do so when we make it easier for our passions and for temptations to take hold of us?  Why would we counteract our forward spiritual steps by weakening ourselves to the powers of the evil one?

In conclusion, insofar as smoking marijuana leads to sin it certainly is a sin itself.  Just as we shouldn't act to facilitate another's sin, we should take that same approach not facilitate our own sin through means harmless at first sight.


That's how I have come to understand it anyway...

The best thing:  Speak to your spiritual father, because trying to read over 10 pages of forum posts will only confuse the issue even more.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 26, 2013, 05:57:14 PM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed? 

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated. 
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses. 

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on June 26, 2013, 06:21:40 PM
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Says an expert in bizarre analogies.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 26, 2013, 06:25:30 PM
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Says an expert in bizarre analogies.
From you, a great compliment.  Please continue.  It's sort of like China condemning American human rights.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 27, 2013, 03:45:01 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed?  

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated.  
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses.  

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Still tons of cultural bias here.  In your comparisons you assert that alcohol is fine and dandy and pot is bad, without any reasoning. 

Do you really want to start comparing the merits of alcohol to pot?  

You brought up driving and police involvement.  Are these things usually alcohol or pot related? Has anyone ever died from marijuana intoxication? Do doctors prescribe alcohol?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Demian on June 27, 2013, 04:10:59 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: LBK on June 27, 2013, 04:14:24 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Demian on June 27, 2013, 04:24:14 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: LBK on June 27, 2013, 04:30:36 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.

Not as rare as you think.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Demian on June 27, 2013, 04:39:43 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.

Not as rare as you think.



From the University of Washingtons Alcohol and Drug abuse institute

Does smoking marijuana cause schizophrenia?

Psychosis refers to a number of mental illnesses where people experience difficulty in telling what is real and what is not. Someone suffering from a psychosis might hear voices that are not really there (hallucinations), or believe things that are not true (delusions). Schizophrenia is a form of psychosis.

Hallucinations and delusions can also be accompanied by muddled thinking and speech, making it difficult for other people to understand the person.

There have been reports of people experiencing these psychotic symptoms after smoking a lot of marijuana or more marijuana than they are used to. This is rare and the symptoms, although frightening at the time, usually go away if use of marijuana is stopped. marijuana has been shown to make psychotic symptoms worse in those who already have a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia.

Some claim that marijuana can cause schizophrenia. Evidence suggests that marijuana may somehow trigger schizophrenia in those who are already at risk of developing the disorder. Those with a vulnerability to develop schizophrenia, such as having a family history of the illness, should be strongly advised against using marijuana for this reason.

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/mentalhealth.htm





Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 27, 2013, 05:33:07 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed?  

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated.  
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses.  

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Still tons of cultural bias here.  In your comparisons you assert that alcohol is fine and dandy and pot is bad, without any reasoning.  

Do you really want to start comparing the merits of alcohol to pot?  

You brought up driving and police involvement.  Are these things usually alcohol or pot related? Has anyone ever died from marijuana intoxication? Do doctors prescribe alcohol?
How many times are we going to revisit alcohol.  I've addressed this several times in this thread.  

You missed the point of the comparisons.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 27, 2013, 05:35:45 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 27, 2013, 05:37:33 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.
At least you are making it clear its your opinion based on our experience.  I respect that and thank you for it even though I disagree.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: mike on June 27, 2013, 07:49:45 AM
At least you are making it clear its your opinion based on our experience.

You aren't.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 27, 2013, 08:29:31 AM
I smoked a good bit of grass in HS and as a Freshman in college. I can tell you the results were not great.
As whether it is a sin, the only purpose I recall was to become intoxicated. Alcohol can be consumed in harmless moderation (beer at a restaurant) or to get rip-roaring drunk (guzzling a large tumbler of Wild Turkey with a dash of coke or orange juice in 30 seconds).
The difference is, as smoking pot has no 'moderate level' that does not include intoxication, then yes it should be thought of as a sin

This is the part that continues to come up.  Like others, I consider this an assumption.  If compared to alcohol, how do you determine what is "intoxication".  Imagine you are at a wedding and you've had some drinks.  You can drink to the point where you probably shouldn't drive, yet you could still enjoy the social gathering and celebration.  In this case you were too intoxicated for one thing (driving), but too intoxicated for another thing (enjoying the wedding responsibly).

Are you saying that, with all you pot smoking experience, you have never been "moderately" buzzed?  

Personally, I would find this hard to believe since the first ten or so times I ever smoked pot (as a teenager) I could only get "kinda" high, much to my disappointment.

Granted, it is easier to dose alcohol to control your level of intoxication, but you are still intoxicated.  
But, some here have said I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't smoke pot (which is an absolutely asinine statement) but he has, agreed with my analysis and still the statement is questioned.  I am beginning to think people are in a frenzy to find a loophole to smoke pot.

I don't have much of a problem with someone who doesn't smoke pot giving their opinion.  For those (like me) who lean more toward a "not necessarily a sin" view, frequently point out the comparison with alcohol which the Church endorses.  

If one were to have an Islamic or puritanical approach where not even alcohol is tolerated, then there would be more consistency.  The idea of having an alcohol induced buzz being permissible, while looking down on sharing a joint with some friends, is bizarre.

 
Comparing alcohol to MJ is kind of like comparing appropriate use of prescribed meds to recreational use of heroin, cutting down a tree for your fireplace to destroying the rain forrest, driving to a police chase.  It sort of fits, but not when you really think about it.

Still tons of cultural bias here.  In your comparisons you assert that alcohol is fine and dandy and pot is bad, without any reasoning.  

Do you really want to start comparing the merits of alcohol to pot?  

You brought up driving and police involvement.  Are these things usually alcohol or pot related? Has anyone ever died from marijuana intoxication? Do doctors prescribe alcohol?
How many times are we going to revisit alcohol.  I've addressed this several times in this thread.  

You missed the point of the comparisons.

Again you are saying things without explaining them.  IF I missed your point of your comparisons, then please explain how.  It's frustrating when you just claim something without further explanation.  We understand that you are against pot, but simply stating so is not sufficient.

My understanding of your comparison is as follows:  You believe that alcohol, while it is intoxication, is still nothing compared to the intoxication of marijuana.  In fact, you believe that marijuana should not be compared to alcohol because it (pot) is that much worse than alcohol.  Is this what you were saying?

If I am accurate about your position, then this is why I'm trying to bring specifics into the conversation.  WHY (according to you) is alcohol so much better than pot? Perhaps you alluded to this in a previous post, but if so it's just a matter of you repeating yourself again.  We are on page 12 of this thread, after all.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 27, 2013, 08:42:57 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.

But of course you aren't going to say exactly what you find wrong with it, are you?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on June 27, 2013, 08:44:36 AM
This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know.

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics.

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.

Nothing wrong with watching pornography, we tell ourselves, forgetting that the demand for pornography enslaves many poor young women (and men) in a form of prostitution, all for our sexual gratification. Pornography has become one of the major addictions of our time, keeping large numbers of people in bondage, and preventing sound healthy relationships.

Situation ethics has convinced women that since they have the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies, aborting the fetus is allowable if their own life style will be negatively affected. Nothing about the rights of the unborn, who have no voice whatsoever.

Situation ethics as blurred the image of marriage, causing couples to choose living together without marriage to become the norm, and same sex couples to see marriage as their right.

The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 27, 2013, 08:58:06 AM
This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know.

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics.

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.

Nothing wrong with watching pornography, we tell ourselves, forgetting that the demand for pornography enslaves many poor young women (and men) in a form of prostitution, all for our sexual gratification. Pornography has become one of the major addictions of our time, keeping large numbers of people in bondage, and preventing sound healthy relationships.

Situation ethics has convinced women that since they have the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies, aborting the fetus is allowable if their own life style will be negatively affected. Nothing about the rights of the unborn, who have no voice whatsoever.

Situation ethics as blurred the image of marriage, causing couples to choose living together without marriage to become the norm, and same sex couples to see marriage as their right.

The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite.


Are these your words?  You kind of made it seem like these are from an abbot.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on June 27, 2013, 09:00:02 AM
Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 27, 2013, 09:23:45 AM
Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on June 27, 2013, 11:56:00 AM
Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.

If you don't read it as a whole you start to make what you want of it, just like many people do with the Bible. If you read the last part, the abbot makes a point that it is indeed a sin.

"The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite."

 "The secret sins" is implying all situation ethics, which would include the drug use.

Why do we keep trying to justify our sins!? 

 













Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: john_mo on June 27, 2013, 12:13:13 PM
Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.

If you don't read it as a whole you start to make what you want of it, just like many people do with the Bible. If you read the last part, the abbot makes a point that it is indeed a sin.

"The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite."

 "The secret sins" is implying all situation ethics, which would include the drug use.

Why do we keep trying to justify our sins!?  

 

I ask that you please try and take a rational, well thought-out approach to this.  I don't find your moralizing  and finger pointing helpful, especially when we are trying to find out if something is in fact morally wrong or not to begin with.  Throwing abortion, pornography, and infidelity to add moral clout to your opinion actually clouds the issue. The subject is not "is sin bad", but rather "is marijuana a sin". So the part where the mystery abbot says that God can see our sins is neither here nor there.

Did you read what I wrote?  Did you read what you wrote?  As I explained, the anonymous abbot you quoted is saying that buying illegal drugs is a sin because it fuels violence with drug cartels. Yes or no? This says nothing of the person who grows their own marijuana for recreational use.

This is similar to your previous contribution where you quoted a saint who came down hard on someone who was addicted to cigarettes and not believing they can quit. Completely different issue.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Demian on June 27, 2013, 03:15:45 PM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness.


Ever heard of cannabis-induced psychosis? There are plenty of them in psych wards.




I've never seen it in a psych ward and I've worked psych. I've seen schizophrenics and people that are prone to mental illness abuse marijuana. I can say in my own opinion that if someone has a psychotic break from marijuana it was more than likely that that person was already prone to psychosis. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'd say it pretty rare.
At least you are making it clear its your opinion based on our experience.  I respect that and thank you for it even though I disagree.


I believe I made it clear as to why I have that opinion. Its a widely held opinion in the medical community. I'll post the link again.

From the University of Washingtons Alcohol and Drug abuse institute

Does smoking marijuana cause schizophrenia?

Psychosis refers to a number of mental illnesses where people experience difficulty in telling what is real and what is not. Someone suffering from a psychosis might hear voices that are not really there (hallucinations), or believe things that are not true (delusions). Schizophrenia is a form of psychosis.

Hallucinations and delusions can also be accompanied by muddled thinking and speech, making it difficult for other people to understand the person.

There have been reports of people experiencing these psychotic symptoms after smoking a lot of marijuana or more marijuana than they are used to. This is rare and the symptoms, although frightening at the time, usually go away if use of marijuana is stopped. marijuana has been shown to make psychotic symptoms worse in those who already have a psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia.

Some claim that marijuana can cause schizophrenia. Evidence suggests that marijuana may somehow trigger schizophrenia in those who are already at risk of developing the disorder. Those with a vulnerability to develop schizophrenia, such as having a family history of the illness, should be strongly advised against using marijuana for this reason.

http://adai.uw.edu/marijuana/factsheets/mentalhealth.htm


Understand that I am not claiming that MJ is totally harmless. Like any substance that one would use for recreation there can be consequences to its use. But based on the evidence I've seen and the medical research and statistics that are readily available to anyone MJ is the most benigin recreational substance one could use. So benign in fact that the bulwark of the harm that is inflicted upon society in relation to MJ is its continued criminalization. This criminalization has helped increase the US prison population to the highest numbers in the industrialized world. Put bluntly the prohibition of MJ and our war on drugs has been an absoulte disaster especially for communities of color.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 27, 2013, 07:07:23 PM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.

But of course you aren't going to say exactly what you find wrong with it, are you?
Not on a cell phone.  Especially when these things have been hashed out previously.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 27, 2013, 07:09:44 PM
This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know.

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics.

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.

Nothing wrong with watching pornography, we tell ourselves, forgetting that the demand for pornography enslaves many poor young women (and men) in a form of prostitution, all for our sexual gratification. Pornography has become one of the major addictions of our time, keeping large numbers of people in bondage, and preventing sound healthy relationships.

Situation ethics has convinced women that since they have the right to make decisions concerning their own bodies, aborting the fetus is allowable if their own life style will be negatively affected. Nothing about the rights of the unborn, who have no voice whatsoever.

Situation ethics as blurred the image of marriage, causing couples to choose living together without marriage to become the norm, and same sex couples to see marriage as their right.

The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite.

Good post!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on June 27, 2013, 11:48:59 PM
We need to take a step back from the human element here, it is too close to us. But who here, with a 14 year old humanzee, upon finding pot in their room, wouldn't be frustrated and angry? Follow your heart...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on June 28, 2013, 12:20:42 AM
So you're saying we should send it to the YMCA?
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Asteriktos on June 28, 2013, 12:22:37 AM
So you're saying we should send it to the YMCA?

Your humanzee?  I don't think so. That seems like animal neglect. Or is it child neglect?  Science will most likely demonstrate some day that some humanzees are inclined by nature/genetics to use pot. We need to use a firm but sympathetic hand with them.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on June 28, 2013, 12:30:32 AM
We need to use a firm but sympathetic hand with them.

So we beat them while assuring them "This hurts me more than it hurts you"...got it!
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: neon_knights on June 28, 2013, 02:02:22 AM

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.



This is irrelevant, as most of the marijuana in the US that is sold in dispensaries is home-grown.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: orthonorm on June 28, 2013, 03:08:20 AM
I'm unsure if Marijuana is a sin or not but as someone who has extensive experience with Marijuana in his past and is currently a healthcare worker I can say Ive never seen anyone admitted to the hospital for a Marijuana related illness. Yes I saw the article posted earlier about the kids who ate the brownies and were admitted to the hospital but I think that is more a case of being inexperienced with the effects of the drug and having a panic attack.

Alcohol on the other hand is a proven killer unless it is used with the utmost respect. Tobacco kills close to 400,000 people in the US a year and may be one of the most lethal substances known to man. Bad diet is also a killer and has contributed to unbelievable amounts of obesity and diabetes. Its  hard to quantify how much damage and how many lives the trifecta above has taken. However I have yet to see one death contributed to MJ. I'm not totally sold on the medical benifits of it and I don't think that kids should use it and people definitely shouldn't drive while using it but of all the substances one could use recreationally Marijuana is the most benign. Infact I don't think it would be a stretch to say that fast food kills way more people than Marijuana. That would be a given considering I've never heard of anyone dying from MJ.

Marijuana for recreational use should be legalized. If for any reason the enforcement of its prohibition is extremely racist and disproportionatly affects poor communities of people of color.
There are sooo many things wrong with this post.

But of course you aren't going to say exactly what you find wrong with it, are you?
Not on a cell phone.  Especially when these things have been hashed out previously.

Dude, you said hash . . .
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Peacemaker on June 28, 2013, 04:44:53 AM
Re-read what I wrote  "in the words of an abbot I know. "

Yes, I did see that the first time I read it.  So if it's from an abbot, then use a colon.  For example...

This all falls under situation ethics, in the words of an abbot I know:

Situation ethics has become the norm for our times, having replaced the biblical ethics of past generations. In situation ethics as long as no one is hurt one can do as one pleases. Taking drugs, watching pornography and aborting the unborn child, all can come under the flag of situation ethics...


Otherwise it could seem like it was only the term "situation ethics".  Alternatively you could put what he said in quotations since you are quoting someone.  Not a major point, I was just confused by it.

As for the abbots words, I don't know why you needed to include the parts about pornography, abortion and marriage.  Only one part can refer to the use of marijuana:

Taking drugs is seen as morally neutral by increasing numbers of Americans. We believe no one is hurt by our drug use, while refusing to see the obvious connection between our drug purchases and the mass killings in Mexico by drug cartels that are in business because of the demand for drugs by American users.


  Here the anonymous abbot talks about "drugs" (which drugs?).  And he only says they are wrong because of the Mexican drug cartels killing over them.  As such, the problem is mainly that the drugs are illegal and cause violence as a result.  He is not saying that they are sinful in and of themselves.

If you don't read it as a whole you start to make what you want of it, just like many people do with the Bible. If you read the last part, the abbot makes a point that it is indeed a sin.

"The Fathers knew that even the secret sins committed by people had an effect on the whole of the cosmos. The people who promote situation ethics would have us believe that nothing that is done in private hurts anyone. Biblical ethics tells us quite the opposite."

 "The secret sins" is implying all situation ethics, which would include the drug use.

Why do we keep trying to justify our sins!?  

 

I ask that you please try and take a rational, well thought-out approach to this.  I don't find your moralizing  and finger pointing helpful, especially when we are trying to find out if something is in fact morally wrong or not to begin with.  Throwing abortion, pornography, and infidelity to add moral clout to your opinion actually clouds the issue. The subject is not "is sin bad", but rather "is marijuana a sin". So the part where the mystery abbot says that God can see our sins is neither here nor there.

Did you read what I wrote?  Did you read what you wrote?  As I explained, the anonymous abbot you quoted is saying that buying illegal drugs is a sin because it fuels violence with drug cartels. Yes or no? This says nothing of the person who grows their own marijuana for recreational use.

This is similar to your previous contribution where you quoted a saint who came down hard on someone who was addicted to cigarettes and not believing they can quit. Completely different issue.


Lord have mercy, please forgive me if I upset you John. I am sorry if it seemed like I was pointing fingers, I was generalizing and didn't say names as to not point fingers, but it may have come off as I was. It wasn't my intention and I am sorry.

The Abbot's name does not matter, it's besides the point.

May the Holy Spirit guide my words to help those in need.

In  Galatians 5:21 we read
"Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. "

Drunkenness (if you ask your priest) isn't just from drink. It's putting your body and mind in a state of being in which God did not intend it to be. You smoke only for yourself, to consume it, to consume for enjoyment is gluttony. Your wanting it for the pleasure of the state it puts you in is pride.

It keeps you away from God, you are no longer connected with God because you are in an altered state of being. Sin is nothing but separation from God. Our Blessed Theotokos did not sin, that is to say, she was always with God, she never was separated from Him. When you smoke cannabis you are putting that prideful, gluttonous, passion of the flesh (I say flesh because it alters the body) above God because God should be the source of your entire life and therefor by putting it above God you are removing Him as the center of your life and therefor separating Him from you. Again, separation from God = sin.

Here is one more example and I hope will put the nail on this coffin.
Luke 10:27 we read, "And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
What is Cannabis? It is a psychoactive drug, that means it acts primarily upon the central nervous system where it affects brain function. We know the mind is the Nous, also known as intellect. In Orthodox Christianity the nous is also known as the eye of the soul. Soul is created in the image of God. Since God is Trinitarian, Mankind is Nous, Word and Spirit. Therefore, how can you possibly be following this , the first and greatest commandment as noted "all your mind" if you are affecting it to function in an alternate way.

My own personal opinion and rant, why even bother and why take the risk. Christ gave his life, he was tortured and died for me, for you, for all of us to save us. That is the ultimate sacrifice. And what do we do, we keep asking how much more can we have. We have jobs, money- so much of it we are rich, filthy rich compared to most Countries. We have more food than we need, more clothes than we need. We have so much, but do we deserve any of it? No, we are filthy, wretched sinners, but yet we are like kids who keep asking their parents, can I have more and more. Now this, why add another thing to the list, why marijuana, why even bother. If you don't know if it is sin or not, then we shouldn't even go there, do what your priest tells you. Will it benefit us and get us to the Kingdom if we smoke it, probably not. So why do we need to analyze these things? Because we we prideful, we only care about ourselves, we only care about the flesh, about sensual pleasures. If we loved Christ we wouldn't try to get more, we would give ourselves instead. Give it up, we need to give up our stupid pleasures that don't help us and we should struggle more, and live by the commandments. Instead of smoking pot, read the psalter, get high from prostrations, struggle for Christ. The narrow road is hard to find, and I would bet it's not filled with pass time smoking hobbies.

If we don't die, before we die, we will die when we die. ~ Schema-archimandrite Joachim



Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Deep Roots on June 29, 2013, 06:37:26 PM
Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: augustin717 on June 29, 2013, 06:44:13 PM
Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
true that.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 29, 2013, 08:03:42 PM
Smoking bad weed is definitely a sin. 
Well, it's all bad so...
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Demian on June 29, 2013, 08:49:29 PM
If moderate alcohol use isn't a sin I fail to see how marijuana is.
Title: Re: Is smoking marijuana a sin?
Post by: Kerdy on June 29, 2013, 10:48:59 PM
If moderate alcohol use isn't a sin I fail to see how marijuana is.