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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Western Rite Discussion => Topic started by: LivenotoneviL on September 16, 2017, 11:02:37 AM

Title: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 16, 2017, 11:02:37 AM
Let's start another thread which hopefully is more successful than my previous thread here.

Anybody got pictures of Western iconography that would (debateably) be appropriate for veneration or contemplation? Especially pre-schism, but I'm thinking in terms of time period, pre-schism to like the 13th century.

I'll start it off with an icon of the Theotokos, called the "Salus Populi Romani" (Latin for "Salvation of the Roman People" or "Salvation of the Roman Nation"). It is, at the time of this post, what my profile picture is.

It was a Byzantine icon given as a gift to Saint Gregory the Dialogist (Pope Saint Gregory the Great), and is still a heavily venerated Roman Catholic icon.

Pope Pius XII added crowns to the icon (imo a bad decision), but they've since then been removed I believe and the icon has been a project of a restoration
It is currently located in Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome.

(https://blogjhi.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/salus.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 16, 2017, 11:16:39 AM
Also, a couple of mosaics from the artist of the cathedral (although it is post schism)

(https://orthodoxnorthwest.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/tumblr_lstundwowv1qghk7bo1_1280.jpg)

(http://www.italianways.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/12-presentazione-tempio-665x586.jpg)

(http://www.italianways.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/10-nativita-665x514.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/42/6a/21/426a21ec0da2066ec5b638fa47a0147b--byzantine-icons-byzantine-art.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2f/d5/48/2fd548aa367064d25d6b63a27b3ab42b--catholic-art-roman-catholic.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 16, 2017, 11:22:30 AM
Santa Pudenziana, a 4th century church in Rome - its nave:

(http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/early_christian/sta_pudenziana_apse.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Hinterlander on September 16, 2017, 12:05:32 PM
Not quite an icon but

(http://www.museivaticani.va/content/dam/museivaticani/immagini/collezioni/musei/museo_cristiano/01_01_Artista_longobardo_Dittico_avorio.jpg/jcr:content/renditions/cq5dam.web.1280.1280.jpeg)

Quote

Lombard artist, Diptych in ivory

Possibly intended to bind an illuminated manuscript, of which it would constitute the front and the rear plate respectively, the two plates were commissioned by the abbot Odelricus of the Benedictine abbey of St. Flavian in Rambona, Macerata, in the Marche region. The abbey was erected around 898 by the empress Ageltrude, widow of Guy, Duke of Spoleto, who bore the title of king of Italy and dall'889 to dall'891 emperor until his death (894). The left valve bears a schematic Crucifixion between the Virgin and St. John – with the Sun and the Moon at the top and below, the She-wolf with the twins – occupies three-quarters of the surface; in the right valve, there is a figurative strip in which Virgin in Maestà is depicted, above a second one with the dedicatory saints. The complex iconography of the reliefs, a hardened linearity tending towards abstraction, seems to allude to Christ's triumph over pagan Rome and the new Christian empire of Ageltrude.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 16, 2017, 12:38:32 PM

Quote

Possibly intended to bind an illuminated manuscript, of which it would constitute the front and the rear plate respectively, the two plates were commissioned by the abbot Odelricus of the Benedictine abbey of St. Flavian in Rambona, Macerata, in the Marche region. The abbey was erected around 898 by the empress Ageltrude, widow of Guy, Duke of Spoleto, who bore the title of king of Italy and dall'889 to dall'891 emperor until his death (894). The left valve bears a schematic Crucifixion between the Virgin and St. John – with the Sun and the Moon at the top and below, the She-wolf with the twins – occupies three-quarters of the surface; in the right valve, there is a figurative strip in which Virgin in Maestà is depicted, above a second one with the dedicatory saints. The complex iconography of the reliefs, a hardened linearity tending towards abstraction, seems to allude to Christ's triumph over pagan Rome and the new Christian empire of Ageltrude.

I liked the symbolism of the triumph of Christ over paganism :)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 17, 2017, 10:17:03 AM
The most venerated icons by Polish Catholics and Orthodox:

Częstochowska:
(https://kubaradewocjonalia.pl/userdata/gfx/d556611ac227004469690fa0fa9ba897.jpg)

Ostrobramska
(http://wf1.xcdn.pl/files/09/08/10/912163_Wilnomatkaboskaostrobramska_34.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 17, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
Everything by Duccio:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Duccio_di_Buoninsegna_002.jpg/609px-Duccio_di_Buoninsegna_002.jpg)

(https://www.artbible.info/images/duccio_maesta_limbo_grt.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/%27The_Raising_of_Lazarus%27%2C_tempera_and_gold_on_panel_by_Duccio_di_Buoninsegna%2C_1310%E2%80%9311%2C_Kimbell_Art_Museum.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/52/40/6d/52406d5553f45f2ecd5e254a4d2edcef.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 17, 2017, 03:24:57 PM
Everything by Duccio:

Lol
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 17, 2017, 03:32:57 PM
Maybe I should've not necessarily said "icons for veneration," I meant to start a thread about Western artwork which would be appropriate for Orthodox Churches - that is, Western Rite Churches.

Regardless, here's some Romanesque paintings:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e2/65/5a/e2655afae43c1a64d669632213c47eda.jpg)


(http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_50.180a-l_av1.jpg)


Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 17, 2017, 04:36:14 PM
Maybe I should've not necessarily said "icons for veneration," I meant to start a thread about Western artwork which would be appropriate for Orthodox Churches - that is, Western Rite Churches.

Regardless, here's some Romanesque paintings:

I think that if Ethiopian and Coptic iconography are appropriate for veneration, then this should be too.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 17, 2017, 04:45:09 PM
Santa Trinita Maesta by Cimabue.

It was painted for the Santa Trinita church in Florence around 1290 - 1300.

The bottom figures are Jeremiah, Abraham, David, and Isaiah.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Cimabue_Trinita_Madonna.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on September 17, 2017, 05:04:46 PM
Quote
Western artwork which would be appropriate for Orthodox Churches - that is, Western Rite Churches.

Cool.

I would say ideally this is a kind of Catholic spirituality; the Orthodox being consistent would say this truly Western stuff fits their ethos, neither imitating us post-schism nor, more pervasive, imitating the majority rite in Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on September 17, 2017, 08:25:01 PM
I would say ideally this is a kind of Catholic spirituality; the Orthodox being consistent would say this truly Western stuff fits their ethos, neither imitating us post-schism nor, more pervasive, imitating the majority rite in Orthodoxy.
Still, it's pre Renaissance, when Western iconography became blatantly compositional, which methinks is at the root of the criticism by the Orthodox.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on September 21, 2017, 07:18:27 PM
Can't forget this one (which is just as famous in Eastern Orthodoxy; this was the best version I could find).

Our Lady of Perpetual Help / Theotokos of the Passion

(http://filipinopastoralministry.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/MPHelpPic.jpg)

Edited to reduce image size.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: thenerdpaul on September 28, 2017, 11:44:01 AM
(https://clearcreekmonks.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/clear-creek-abbey-annuntiantion-icon-300x300-1.jpg)

(https://clearcreekmonks.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/trinity-icon-clear-creek-abbey.jpg)

(https://clearcreekmonks.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/clear-creek-abbey-icon-saint-benedict-300x300-1.jpg)

These are some nice icons from the monks of Our Lady of Clear Creek Abbey in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 28, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: thenerdpaul on September 28, 2017, 12:19:20 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.

Agreed. Personally I am not a fan of Trinity icons (where all three are present). The art style is still nice though.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on September 28, 2017, 12:31:21 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: thenerdpaul on September 28, 2017, 12:35:08 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9
Oops, not sure how I missed that, sorry. I was thinking of the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is what Volnutt meant.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 28, 2017, 12:36:03 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9

I know, but it should really be more subtle than the above if you're trying not to slip into modalism, right?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 28, 2017, 12:37:54 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.

Agreed. Personally I am not a fan of Trinity icons (where all three are present). The art style is still nice though.

Yeah, I've always had a soft spot for that sort of "Neo-Medieval" style even it can come as kind of LARP-y sometimes.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on September 28, 2017, 12:40:05 PM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9

I know, but it should really be more subtle than the above if you're trying not to slip into modalism, right?
Do you think that's more modalist than this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Angelsatmamre-trinity-rublev-1410.jpg/385px-Angelsatmamre-trinity-rublev-1410.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on September 28, 2017, 12:42:01 PM
For what it's worth, if I remember correctly, Fr. Thomas Hopko of blessed memory preferred NT Trinity icons in which the Father had the same appearance as Christ.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 29, 2017, 04:14:11 AM
Theological issues surrounding "NT Trinity" icons aside, the middle one kind of makes it look like Jesus is His own Father.
In most cases, that is exactly the idea:

"Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?"
John 14:9

I know, but it should really be more subtle than the above if you're trying not to slip into modalism, right?
Do you think that's more modalist than this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Angelsatmamre-trinity-rublev-1410.jpg/385px-Angelsatmamre-trinity-rublev-1410.jpg)

Fair enough. I have no response.

I think I used to know that about Fr. Hopko, at least.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on September 29, 2017, 06:04:44 AM
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art (the "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look — there's Our Lady of Perpetual Help and then there's that; you can tell the difference). Just like with latinizations among Eastern Catholics: not heretical but disrespecting perfectly good rites hurts one's witness.

A WRO community that faithfully did that, for generations (like Eastern Catholics and even the Polish National Catholic Church are generational), in an Orthodoxy that held the fort against contraception and didn't do remarriage after divorce, would impress me, challenging my faith. I know you don't agree; just stating my case.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on September 29, 2017, 06:19:07 AM
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art

Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on September 29, 2017, 06:20:39 AM
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art

Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.

Pretty much. The San Damiano crucifix is a good example. Similar to Byzantine but not Byzantine.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 29, 2017, 06:21:15 AM
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art (the "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" look — there's Our Lady of Perpetual Help and then there's that; you can tell the difference). Just like with latinizations among Eastern Catholics: not heretical but disrespecting perfectly good rites hurts one's witness.

A WRO community that faithfully did that, for generations (like Eastern Catholics and even the Polish National Catholic Church are generational), in an Orthodoxy that held the fort against contraception and didn't do remarriage after divorce, would impress me, challenging my faith. I know you don't agree; just stating my case.

Does anybody actually care but liturgy nerds?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on September 29, 2017, 06:28:18 AM
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art

Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.

Pretty much. The San Damiano crucifix is a good example. Similar to Byzantine but not Byzantine.

Much of art in the West is not only similar to but also exactly like Byzantine art. See just about any Italian church for example.

Also WRO is tiny majority of tiny immigrant churches.  I assume they'd love to have Mozarabic, Romanesque etc. icons if there was any available anywhere. I can't find any kind of icon of my Patron Saint St. Januarius so assumingly Gothic icons of St. Gregory Palamas are not readily available in your local supermarket either.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on September 29, 2017, 11:51:23 AM
didn't do remarriage after divorce

Exchanging Byzantine chauvinism for Latin chauvinism is no gain.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on September 29, 2017, 12:47:55 PM
This one's pre-schism

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Baptistry_of_Neon_ceiling_mosaic_%28Ravenna%29.jpg/220px-Baptistry_of_Neon_ceiling_mosaic_%28Ravenna%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 29, 2017, 10:58:14 PM
This one's pre-schism

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Baptistry_of_Neon_ceiling_mosaic_%28Ravenna%29.jpg/220px-Baptistry_of_Neon_ceiling_mosaic_%28Ravenna%29.jpg)

I also read it was Arian.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpha60 on September 30, 2017, 01:11:03 AM
This one's pre-schism

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Baptistry_of_Neon_ceiling_mosaic_%28Ravenna%29.jpg/220px-Baptistry_of_Neon_ceiling_mosaic_%28Ravenna%29.jpg)

I also read it was Arian.

There are two ancient baptistries at Ravenna: the Orthodox Baptistry and the Arian Baptistry.  The Byzantine artwork in the two, which were constructed by the Ostrogothic ruler to cater to the two groups and avoid a schism, is virtually identical; there is just one striking difference, that being that in the Arian Baptistry our Lord appears as a beardless young man, no older than 20, whereas in the Orthodox Baptistry he has a beard and His normal, mature, adult appearance.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 30, 2017, 02:11:46 AM
Oh yeah, I see the differences, the Arian has a representation of the Father, the Empty Throne, and a general background of green and gold, instead of dark blue. St. John is also on Christ's right with the Father on his left. I never knew there were two in the same place, thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg)

ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 30, 2017, 06:59:13 AM
Oh yeah, I see the differences, the Arian has a representation of the Father, the Empty Throne, and a general background of green and gold, instead of dark blue. St. John is also on Christ's right with the Father on his left. I never knew there were two in the same place, thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg)
I didn't know! It's interesting!

ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.

It seems a system detecting heresies has been just implemented.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on September 30, 2017, 09:11:16 AM
ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.

It seems a system detecting heresies has been just implemented.

 :-*
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on September 30, 2017, 09:19:51 AM
I didn't know any Arian church buildings still existed. Thanks. "Verrrry interesting" as Arte Johnson says as his German-soldier character (he's a comedian from decades ago). A spiritual point: it looks almost like Catholicism and Orthodoxy but look at the details. (Each of the ancient sects like that claimed to be the true church just like we still respectively do.)

Quote
Does anybody actually care but liturgy nerds?

I can't find quotations but in other conversations on this board on this topic I recall the message of "liturgy is more important to us than to your church," lex orandi, lex credendi, so I tried to meet that challenge by imagining a culturally consistent Western Orthodoxy; this seems to contradict that. "Orthodoxy cares about liturgy"/"only liturgy nerds care about this."

Again, if you agree with John of Shanghai and San Francisco about not having to be Eastern to be Orthodox (and he didn't really implement that; the revived Gallican Rite was very byzantinized), then you'd mirror unlatinized Eastern Catholic churches by having authentically Western expressions of Orthodoxy in order to respect perfectly good rites and for your attempted witness to us.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 30, 2017, 09:44:41 AM
then you'd mirror unlatinized Eastern Catholic churches by having authentically Western expressions of Orthodoxy in order to respect perfectly good rites and for your attempted witness to us.

I'm not aware of many such parishes; well, actually, I know two: one in Kostomłoty (Poland), that's Greek Catholic of synodal rite and one Ukrainian Greek Catholic in Canada, st. Elias.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on September 30, 2017, 09:52:18 AM
I can name a few in the U.S., such as Melkite parishes, such as Transfiguration in McLean, Virginia (suburb of Washington, DC), and the Russian Catholic parishes, originally failed projects to convert the Russian Orthodox that are now made up of born Catholic non-Russians who love the rite and culture. Two examples I've been to. Even my very ordinary Ukrainian Catholic part-time parish, while not doing everything Orthodox parishes do (no antidoron, for example), thanks to Rome encouraging delatinization and the bishops implementing it, is Byzantine enough that much of the time (except the spoken Liturgy when the diak can't make it), American Slavic Orthodox would feel at home. Interesting side note: among the icons on the walls from the two former parishes merged to form my part-time place is one of Jesus in which the heart has been painted over because that's not native to the rite. We're not trying to diminish the Eastern rites; quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 30, 2017, 10:09:59 AM
I can name a few in the U.S., such as Melkite parishes, such as Transfiguration in McLean, Virginia (suburb of Washington, DC), and the Russian Catholic parishes, originally failed projects to convert the Russian Orthodox that are now made up of born Catholic non-Russians who love the rite and culture. Two examples I've been to. Even my very ordinary Ukrainian Catholic part-time parish, while not doing everything Orthodox parishes do (no antidoron, for example), thanks to Rome encouraging delatinization and the bishops implementing it, is Byzantine enough that much of the time (except the spoken Liturgy when the diak can't make it), American Slavic Orthodox would feel at home. Interesting side note: among the icons on the walls from the two former parishes merged to form my part-time place is one of Jesus in which the heart has been painted over because that's not native to the rite. We're not trying to diminish the Eastern rites; quite the opposite.

Maybe it works more for North America, but I have some doubts. For Eaestern and South Eurpe - nto really. The same "not really" applies to the Middle East.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on September 30, 2017, 10:31:24 AM
Why not in Eastern and Southern Europe? And the Melkites are based in the Middle East.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on September 30, 2017, 10:50:30 AM
There are two ancient baptistries at Ravenna: the Orthodox Baptistry and the Arian Baptistry.  The Byzantine artwork in the two, which were constructed by the Ostrogothic ruler to cater to the two groups and avoid a schism, is virtually identical; there is just one striking difference, that being that in the Arian Baptistry our Lord appears as a beardless young man, no older than 20, whereas in the Orthodox Baptistry he has a beard and His normal, mature, adult appearance.
Another striking difference is that in the orthodox mosaic Christ is modestly depicted and in the Arian one, not.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on September 30, 2017, 11:03:19 AM
The point remains that Western Rite Orthodox should be adopting and cultivating this kind of art instead of adopting Byzantine art
Like Salus Populi Romani, San Damiano cross and about half of the paintings of churches in Italy.
Pretty much. The San Damiano crucifix is a good example. Similar to Byzantine but not Byzantine.
Good.  Because sometimes you gave me the impression of defending the Renaissance style, which is too sentimental and realistic for worship, having more to do with the Arian style of the Ravenna baptistry mosaics than with the orthodox one in the same city.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 30, 2017, 01:26:52 PM
Why not in Eastern and Southern Europe? And the Melkites are based in the Middle East.

I'm from Eastern and Southern Europe, have been also to Greek Catholics, I know some such priests. So I just know their practices and mentality.

The Middle East - I'm at Arabic studies, so, again, I have some knowledge.

And the Melkites in the Middle East, and the Melkites abroad... it's quite a different story. But even the second one, I think, our Rapha from Brasil said, that because of being latinised most of Latin American Melkites lost their parishes, rite and memory about their roots, origins.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on September 30, 2017, 01:43:50 PM
Funny enough, there has been speculation that in what's known as the Arian baptistery the mosaics were made by Orthodox christians as the Ostrogoths were mostly Goldsmiths.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 30, 2017, 02:31:34 PM
Oh yeah, I see the differences, the Arian has a representation of the Father, the Empty Throne, and a general background of green and gold, instead of dark blue. St. John is also on Christ's right with the Father on his left. I never knew there were two in the same place, thanks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Baptistery#/media/File:Arian_Baptistry_ceiling_mosaic_-_Ravenna.jpg)
I didn't know! It's interesting!

ETA: It's not letting me post the image for some reason.

It seems a system detecting heresies has been just implemented.

lol
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 30, 2017, 02:37:47 PM
I didn't know any Arian church buildings still existed. Thanks. "Verrrry interesting" as Arte Johnson says as his German-soldier character (he's a comedian from decades ago). A spiritual point: it looks almost like Catholicism and Orthodoxy but look at the details. (Each of the ancient sects like that claimed to be the true church just like we still respectively do.)

Quote
Does anybody actually care but liturgy nerds?

I can't find quotations but in other conversations on this board on this topic I recall the message of "liturgy is more important to us than to your church," lex orandi, lex credendi, so I tried to meet that challenge by imagining a culturally consistent Western Orthodoxy; this seems to contradict that. "Orthodoxy cares about liturgy"/"only liturgy nerds care about this."

Again, if you agree with John of Shanghai and San Francisco about not having to be Eastern to be Orthodox (and he didn't really implement that; the revived Gallican Rite was very byzantinized), then you'd mirror unlatinized Eastern Catholic churches by having authentically Western expressions of Orthodoxy in order to respect perfectly good rites and for your attempted witness to us.

Well, don't take my word for what the Orthodox think, but I always thought lex orandi was more about consonance with previous traditions.

A lot of East-West wrangling of this sort just kind of looks like nit-picking to me since the overall thrust of what's being portrayed and done is so similar. But apparently many of the Orthodox believe that there's significant differences in the theology being conveyed. I can't see it, but I'm sure they have their reasons.

My apologies for being flippant, though.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on October 01, 2017, 12:32:57 AM
Why not in Eastern and Southern Europe? And the Melkites are based in the Middle East.

I'm from Eastern and Southern Europe, have been also to Greek Catholics, I know some such priests. So I just know their practices and mentality.

The Middle East - I'm at Arabic studies, so, again, I have some knowledge.

And the Melkites in the Middle East, and the Melkites abroad... it's quite a different story. But even the second one, I think, our Rapha from Brasil said, that because of being latinised most of Latin American Melkites lost their parishes, rite and memory about their roots, origins.

My guess, from knowing Greek Catholics from Eastern Europe, is historically they latinized themselves, ironic because that wasn't Rome's plan, to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox, a tendency that Communist persecution strengthened.

The founders of ACROD, the jurisdiction some members here belong to, were Catholics whose families had been so for centuries until the 1930s, and even after they switched to the Greeks they kept their latinizations for decades: the practice of having two Liturgies on a Sunday, calling it Mass, monsignors, and First Communion for 7-year-olds. Poignant. That schism breaks my heart: you don't have to do those things to be Catholic, but that schism was our fault (for trying to force priestly celibacy on new Greek Catholic priests in America) and ACROD's long retention of those practices points to the fact that at first they didn't want to leave us.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on October 16, 2017, 02:59:41 PM
I was recently at the Cleveland Museum of Art, and found it worthwhile to share this giant Crucifix they have on display.

(http://artimages.clevelandart.org/cma/ump.di?e=9576040820CE70547F8A034B1D43688F188CC5C1231BA0C06C5B85D929BA00D2&s=21&se=1781842527&f=1995.5_w.jpg)

Which led me to Google Crucifixes from Pisa, which gave me this image

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/04/ec/04/04ec047f95e832e7b07f37d4db354b7b--painted-crosses-pisa.jpg)

They're both from the 12th-13th century, but very iconographic.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on October 16, 2017, 03:01:57 PM
...but very iconographic.

How are we defining "iconographic" here?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on October 16, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
...but very iconographic.

How are we defining "iconographic" here?

Byzantine, my bad.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on October 16, 2017, 06:25:57 PM
I have one from St. Expeditus at the edge of my icon corner, it's not exactly proper, but I love him and it's heritage from my great-grandmother.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on October 17, 2017, 06:14:11 AM
The founders of ACROD, the jurisdiction some members here belong to, were Catholics whose families had been so for centuries until the 1930s, and even after they switched to the Greeks they kept their latinizations for decades: the practice of having two Liturgies on a Sunday,
It's pretty common in large parishes in Poland and it happens in Romania, Russia...

calling it Mass,
It happenes among Polish Orthodox villigers.

monsignors, and First Communion for 7-year-olds. Poignant. That schism breaks my heart: you don't have to do those things to be Catholic, but that schism was our fault (for trying to force priestly celibacy on new Greek Catholic priests in America) and ACROD's long retention of those practices points to the fact that at first they didn't want to leave us.

And this, generally - I think it's above all, what we call in Polish "siła przyzwyczajenia" (stregth of the habit).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: The young fogey on October 20, 2017, 05:46:33 AM
Dominika, I think we're both right. I believe that at first ACROD was ambivalent about leaving. All they really wanted was to keep their customs as they had them at the time, the 1930s, and the Greeks have accommodated them that way. Longtime poster podkarpatska can tell you about growing up in that church in the 1950s and 1960s: "We're Orthodox Greek Catholics" as Fr. Dolhy said then. So you're right that a lot of it was habit/custom apart from beliefs. The generation that converted passed away and that church's bishop before the current one, Metropolitan Nicholas (Smisko), quietly stopped doing some of the Latin Catholic practices, so the recently promoted priests are protopresbyters, not monsignors anymore, for example.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on November 06, 2017, 02:05:30 PM
Source:
ROCOR Western Rite Liturgics Website, Liturgy of Saint Gregory
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/144b2c_20fb156e03c34f56a6dc312f73f9888d.pdf

Crucifixion:
(https://image.ibb.co/d4zG5w/crucifixion.png)

Last Supper:
(https://image.ibb.co/goQ0Xb/last_supper.png)

Entrance into Jerusalem:
(https://image.ibb.co/g8n3kw/entrance_into_jerusalem.png)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on November 06, 2017, 02:09:43 PM
These "black and white" pictures are called "line art," and they are typically in Traditional Missals.

I enjoy quite a few number of these, but one stood out to me that I'll share.

(https://image.ibb.co/mcA3JG/burning_bush.jpg)

I never learned about the Typology of Christ and the Theotokos with the Burning Bush until I started learning about Orthodoxy - not once in my 12 years of Roman Catholic education was the Old Testament really at all looked at in terms of the symbolism of Christ's eventual entrance unto the world (which is a travesty).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on November 11, 2017, 06:02:52 PM
I never learned about the Typology of Christ and the Theotokos with the Burning Bush until I started learning about Orthodoxy - not once in my 12 years of Roman Catholic education was the Old Testament really at all looked at in terms of the symbolism of Christ's eventual entrance unto the world (which is a travesty).
Had I kept a list of the things that I learned in my studies on Orthodoxy, things that completely in line with the Catholic faith, that I had never heard or read in my whole life as a Catholic, it'd be a really long post.  All in all, such omissions made me feel deprived of the fullness of the life of the Church.

I've always loved the Church Fathers and was captivated by their language and lives.  As a Catholic, I had to resign myself to the time that separates us and them and that quietens their voice in order to explain why the contemporary Catholic Church speaks with a different voice.  Then I learned that the Vatican officials in charge of the canonization process of St. Sharbel were amazed at the testimonies on his saintly life because they were as fantastic as those commonly read in the Desert Fathers, typically assigned to pious exaggerations by modern scholars.  Alas, as I found out, there still is a Church that speaks with the voice of the Fathers and gives an awesome prophetic witness of Christ in the world: the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Subdeacon Michael on November 12, 2017, 08:18:14 AM
These "black and white" pictures are called "line art," and they are typically in Traditional Missals.

Woodcut is the term I've commonly heard used, from the method of producing the image.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 01, 2017, 11:19:59 PM
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2017/11/medieval-frescoes-in-long-lost-crypt.html
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on December 02, 2017, 08:29:53 AM
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2017/11/medieval-frescoes-in-long-lost-crypt.html
Wow, they're really beautiful (and so old)!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: maneki_neko on December 03, 2017, 09:53:57 PM
Which led me to Google Crucifixes from Pisa, which gave me this image: They're both from the 12th-13th century, but very iconographic.

I have a small San Damiano (Byzantine style) cross in my icon corner. I guess this is improper since it's Roman Catholic? I bought it from the monks in Assisi when I visited their monastery in Italy as a relatively agnostic Protestant. Never had an occasion to use it until I became Orthodox and it lay in its wrappings for years.

(http://www.stfranciscommunity.net/editoruploads/images/cross-san-damiano-cross.jpg)

http://www.zieglers.com/blog/the-san-damiano-cross-one-of-the-churchs-most-mysterious-gifts-explained/ 
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on December 03, 2017, 10:03:10 PM
I see nothing improper in the San Damiano Cross. It seems quite holy to me.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 03, 2017, 10:16:26 PM
Which led me to Google Crucifixes from Pisa, which gave me this image: They're both from the 12th-13th century, but very iconographic.

I have a small San Damiano (Byzantine style) cross in my icon corner. I guess this is improper since it's Roman Catholic? I bought it from the monks in Assisi when I visited their monastery in Italy as a relatively agnostic Protestant. Never had an occasion to use it until I became Orthodox and it lay in its wrappings for years.

(http://www.stfranciscommunity.net/editoruploads/images/cross-san-damiano-cross.jpg)

http://www.zieglers.com/blog/the-san-damiano-cross-one-of-the-churchs-most-mysterious-gifts-explained/

The only thing that I - from an Orthodox perspective - would find somewhat problematic is its direct connection to Francis of Assisi; that is, this is the Crucifix that apparently talked to Francis and told him to "restore my Church."

However, in terms of art - I'm of the opinion there's nothing intrinsically heterodox in its art.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 03, 2017, 10:37:18 PM
The only thing that I - from an Orthodox perspective - would find somewhat problematic is its direct connection to Francis of Assisi...

By this standard, it's a wonder we have an Orthodox perspective at all. 
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 03, 2017, 11:47:11 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
https://hnp.org/orthodox-church-francis-of-assisi-was-no-saint/
http://www.pravmir.com/church-unity-politics/
http://remnantrocor.blogspot.com/2014/10/prelest-of-francis-of-assisi.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html

(P.S. It's an honor to have one of my quotes used by the almighty Mor.)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on December 04, 2017, 06:32:50 AM
So you link to two articles by the same person, one article which is just a summary of another article you link to, and then some link by a schismatic group. When will your laziness come to an end?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 04, 2017, 12:42:25 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

You're missing the point.  Whatever we might say about Francis of Assisi, his association with the "San Damiano" crucifix doesn't make its orthodoxy questionable.  Its faithfulness to Orthodox doctrine or lack thereof is what matters.  If something is questionable because it's associated with a questionable figure, then we've just lost the Bible, the Liturgy, the holy fathers, etc.   

Quote
(P.S. It's an honor to have one of my quotes used by the almighty Mor.)

Keep shining, star!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on December 04, 2017, 12:49:38 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/francis_sarov.aspx
https://hnp.org/orthodox-church-francis-of-assisi-was-no-saint/
http://www.pravmir.com/church-unity-politics/
http://remnantrocor.blogspot.com/2014/10/prelest-of-francis-of-assisi.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html

(P.S. It's an honor to have one of my quotes used by the almighty Mor.)

There's been like 10 threads on Stigmata here over the years. Might want to search for them.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 06:49:10 PM
So you link to two articles by the same person, one article which is just a summary of another article you link to, and then some link by a schismatic group. When will your laziness come to an end?

You got a point. Pray for my laziness to end.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 07:18:39 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

You're missing the point.  Whatever we might say about Francis of Assisi, his association with the "San Damiano" crucifix doesn't make its orthodoxy questionable.  Its faithfulness to Orthodox doctrine or lack thereof is what matters.  If something is questionable because it's associated with a questionable figure, then we've just lost the Bible, the Liturgy, the holy fathers, etc.   

I think your logic is flawed - because the San Damiano Crucifix in of itself was never part of Orthodox Tradition.

The Bible, the Liturgy, and the Church Fathers have always been a part of Orthodox Tradition.

The San Damiano Crucifix is heterodox in origin, being made post-schism, which makes it permanently fixed with the Roman Catholic Church - and in addition to this, the only reason why this specific piece of art is popular in the Roman Catholic Church is BECAUSE of Francis of Assisi. If Francis of Assisi did not exist, we wouldn't be talking about the San Damiano Crucifix.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

However, you have to recognize the implications and the messages you are sending to people if you buy it from a Roman Catholic source, you pray using it with other people, and if you wear it as a Pendant.

If you wear it as a Pendant, the message you send to people is "I think Francis of Assisi is a good role model in his life," and the mere act of wearing it as a Pendant is a message to onlookers who are familiar with it is "I firmly believe that the Franciscans are role models to follow, obeying the authority of the Roman Church," simply because this art piece is firmly fixed with Francis of Assisi.


A more accurate comparison would be other heterodox devotions such as the Rosary or the Saint Michael Chaplet.

In the theology that is being prayed with the words on the paper themselves, are they heterodox? In my humble opinion, no (aside from the imagination that is encouraged by Roman Catholics, which is unacceptable).
The former is simply 5 Our Fathers, 50 Angelic Salutations, and 5 Lesser Doxologies, and it was even modified into a prayer rule by Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

However, if you encourage these devotions in of themselves - even if you remove the "imaginative" portions of these prayers - you have to recognize the Rosary's origins with the Roman Saint Dominic and it's direct attachments to Roman Catholic Marian Apparitions (Our Lady of Carmel, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of La Salette, etc.), the latter which I think are completely unacceptable for an Orthodox to accept.

The same with the Saint Michael Chaplet - a long prayer that is extremely beautiful; it's a prayer in which you ask for the intercessions of Saint Michael and ALL the choirs of angels to help you live a more Christian life. You can find it here:

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/chaplet-of-st-michael.htm

 - but whose origin was a vision of Saint Michael to a heterodox nun who was promised by "Saint Michael" that they would be delivered from the "sufferings of Purgatory" if they recited it daily. By encouraging this prayer, you are encouraging a false theology simply by it's permanent attachment to this heretical apparition and a heterodox organization.

I consider the Cross of San Damiano the same way - is there anything wrong in of itself? No, but it's an alien to Tradition and should generally not be encouraged, lest - as Seraphim Rose would say - "the tombs of the mind are opened, in which all sorts of dead things and evil spirits crawl out of."
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 04, 2017, 07:27:23 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

You're missing the point.  Whatever we might say about Francis of Assisi, his association with the "San Damiano" crucifix doesn't make its orthodoxy questionable.  Its faithfulness to Orthodox doctrine or lack thereof is what matters.  If something is questionable because it's associated with a questionable figure, then we've just lost the Bible, the Liturgy, the holy fathers, etc.   

I think your logic is flawed - because the San Damiano Crucifix in of itself was never part of Orthodox Tradition.

The Bible, the Liturgy, and the Church Fathers have always been a part of Orthodox Tradition.

The San Damiano Crucifix is heterodox in origin, being made post-schism, which makes it permanently fixed with the Roman Catholic Church - and in addition to this, the only reason why this specific piece of art is popular in the Roman Catholic Church is BECAUSE of Francis of Assisi. If Francis of Assisi did not exist, we wouldn't be talking about the San Damiano Crucifix.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

However, you have to recognize the implications and the messages you are sending to people if you buy it from a Roman Catholic source, you pray using it with other people, and if you wear it as a Pendant.

If you wear it as a Pendant, the message you send to people is "I think Francis of Assisi is a good role model in his life," and the mere act of wearing it as a Pendant is a message to onlookers who are familiar with it is "I firmly believe that the Franciscans are role models to follow, obeying the authority of the Roman Church," simply because this art piece is firmly fixed with Francis of Assisi.


A more accurate comparison would be other heterodox devotions such as the Rosary or the Saint Michael Chaplet.

In the theology that is being prayed with the words on the paper themselves, are they heterodox? In my humble opinion, no (aside from the imagination that is encouraged by Roman Catholics, which is unacceptable).
The former is simply 5 Our Fathers, 50 Angelic Salutations, and 5 Lesser Doxologies, and it was even modified into a prayer rule by Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

However, if you encourage these devotions in of themselves - even if you remove the "imaginative" portions of these prayers - you have to recognize the Rosary's origins with the Roman Saint Dominic and it's direct attachments to Roman Catholic Marian Apparitions (Our Lady of Carmel, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of La Salette, etc.), the latter which I think are completely unacceptable for an Orthodox to accept.

The same with the Saint Michael Chaplet - a long prayer that is extremely beautiful; it's a prayer in which you ask for the intercessions of Saint Michael and ALL the choirs of angels to help you live a more Christian life. You can find it here:

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/chaplet-of-st-michael.htm

 - but whose origin was a vision of Saint Michael to a heterodox nun who was promised by "Saint Michael" that the "sufferings of Purgatory" would be lessened if it was prayed. By encouraging this prayer, you are encouraging a false theology simply by it's permanent attachment to this heretical apparition and a heterodox organization.

I consider the Cross of San Damiano the same way - is there anything wrong in of itself? No, but it's an alien to Tradition and should generally not be encouraged, lest - as Seraphim Rose would say - "the tombs of the mind are opened, in which all sorts of dead things and evil spirits crawl out of."

You need to calm down.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 07:28:53 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

You're missing the point.  Whatever we might say about Francis of Assisi, his association with the "San Damiano" crucifix doesn't make its orthodoxy questionable.  Its faithfulness to Orthodox doctrine or lack thereof is what matters.  If something is questionable because it's associated with a questionable figure, then we've just lost the Bible, the Liturgy, the holy fathers, etc.   

I think your logic is flawed - because the San Damiano Crucifix in of itself was never part of Orthodox Tradition.

The Bible, the Liturgy, and the Church Fathers have always been a part of Orthodox Tradition.

The San Damiano Crucifix is heterodox in origin, being made post-schism, which makes it permanently fixed with the Roman Catholic Church - and in addition to this, the only reason why this specific piece of art is popular in the Roman Catholic Church is BECAUSE of Francis of Assisi. If Francis of Assisi did not exist, we wouldn't be talking about the San Damiano Crucifix.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

However, you have to recognize the implications and the messages you are sending to people if you buy it from a Roman Catholic source, you pray using it with other people, and if you wear it as a Pendant.

If you wear it as a Pendant, the message you send to people is "I think Francis of Assisi is a good role model in his life," and the mere act of wearing it as a Pendant is a message to onlookers who are familiar with it is "I firmly believe that the Franciscans are role models to follow, obeying the authority of the Roman Church," simply because this art piece is firmly fixed with Francis of Assisi.


A more accurate comparison would be other heterodox devotions such as the Rosary or the Saint Michael Chaplet.

In the theology that is being prayed with the words on the paper themselves, are they heterodox? In my humble opinion, no (aside from the imagination that is encouraged by Roman Catholics, which is unacceptable).
The former is simply 5 Our Fathers, 50 Angelic Salutations, and 5 Lesser Doxologies, and it was even modified into a prayer rule by Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

However, if you encourage these devotions in of themselves - even if you remove the "imaginative" portions of these prayers - you have to recognize the Rosary's origins with the Roman Saint Dominic and it's direct attachments to Roman Catholic Marian Apparitions (Our Lady of Carmel, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of La Salette, etc.), the latter which I think are completely unacceptable for an Orthodox to accept.

The same with the Saint Michael Chaplet - a long prayer that is extremely beautiful; it's a prayer in which you ask for the intercessions of Saint Michael and ALL the choirs of angels to help you live a more Christian life. You can find it here:

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/chaplet-of-st-michael.htm

 - but whose origin was a vision of Saint Michael to a heterodox nun who was promised by "Saint Michael" that the "sufferings of Purgatory" would be lessened if it was prayed. By encouraging this prayer, you are encouraging a false theology simply by it's permanent attachment to this heretical apparition and a heterodox organization.

I consider the Cross of San Damiano the same way - is there anything wrong in of itself? No, but it's an alien to Tradition and should generally not be encouraged, lest - as Seraphim Rose would say - "the tombs of the mind are opened, in which all sorts of dead things and evil spirits crawl out of."

You need to calm down.

I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on December 04, 2017, 07:51:06 PM
12th century is really not “post-schism.” Also, unless you mean to worship paint and wood, the provenance of an icon is not particularly important if what is depicted is orthodox.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 04, 2017, 08:05:33 PM
I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."

I said nothing about "rage and anger".  There are more than two reasons why someone might need to calm down (e.g., "working oneself up into a frenzy over things about which one lacks sufficient knowledge and insight"). 
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on December 04, 2017, 08:10:46 PM
Would you say that the majority of Orthodox theologians agree that the Stigmata is a sign of the Grace of God? Especially with the abundant amount of - I argue, whether its for good or bad - polemical works by the Orthodox Church members that criticize aspects of Francis of Assisi's sanctity?

You're missing the point.  Whatever we might say about Francis of Assisi, his association with the "San Damiano" crucifix doesn't make its orthodoxy questionable.  Its faithfulness to Orthodox doctrine or lack thereof is what matters.  If something is questionable because it's associated with a questionable figure, then we've just lost the Bible, the Liturgy, the holy fathers, etc.   

I think your logic is flawed - because the San Damiano Crucifix in of itself was never part of Orthodox Tradition.

The Bible, the Liturgy, and the Church Fathers have always been a part of Orthodox Tradition.

The San Damiano Crucifix is heterodox in origin, being made post-schism, which makes it permanently fixed with the Roman Catholic Church - and in addition to this, the only reason why this specific piece of art is popular in the Roman Catholic Church is BECAUSE of Francis of Assisi. If Francis of Assisi did not exist, we wouldn't be talking about the San Damiano Crucifix.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

However, you have to recognize the implications and the messages you are sending to people if you buy it from a Roman Catholic source, you pray using it with other people, and if you wear it as a Pendant.

If you wear it as a Pendant, the message you send to people is "I think Francis of Assisi is a good role model in his life," and the mere act of wearing it as a Pendant is a message to onlookers who are familiar with it is "I firmly believe that the Franciscans are role models to follow, obeying the authority of the Roman Church," simply because this art piece is firmly fixed with Francis of Assisi.


A more accurate comparison would be other heterodox devotions such as the Rosary or the Saint Michael Chaplet.

In the theology that is being prayed with the words on the paper themselves, are they heterodox? In my humble opinion, no (aside from the imagination that is encouraged by Roman Catholics, which is unacceptable).
The former is simply 5 Our Fathers, 50 Angelic Salutations, and 5 Lesser Doxologies, and it was even modified into a prayer rule by Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

However, if you encourage these devotions in of themselves - even if you remove the "imaginative" portions of these prayers - you have to recognize the Rosary's origins with the Roman Saint Dominic and it's direct attachments to Roman Catholic Marian Apparitions (Our Lady of Carmel, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of La Salette, etc.), the latter which I think are completely unacceptable for an Orthodox to accept.

The same with the Saint Michael Chaplet - a long prayer that is extremely beautiful; it's a prayer in which you ask for the intercessions of Saint Michael and ALL the choirs of angels to help you live a more Christian life. You can find it here:

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/chaplet-of-st-michael.htm

 - but whose origin was a vision of Saint Michael to a heterodox nun who was promised by "Saint Michael" that they would be delivered from the "sufferings of Purgatory" if they recited it daily. By encouraging this prayer, you are encouraging a false theology simply by it's permanent attachment to this heretical apparition and a heterodox organization.

I consider the Cross of San Damiano the same way - is there anything wrong in of itself? No, but it's an alien to Tradition and should generally not be encouraged, lest - as Seraphim Rose would say - "the tombs of the mind are opened, in which all sorts of dead things and evil spirits crawl out of."

Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?

Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on December 04, 2017, 08:48:05 PM
I think - for many good reasons - I'm going to take a break from these forums, which have been somewhat of an idol to my relationship with God.

I want to ask a question though as a sinful, bastard lamb whose unsure to follow the Shepherd or the Lion dressed up as the Shepherd who is crying for help - how do I discern between God and Satan, and I'm asking from those who have experienced God?

Pray for me.

Who do I listen to? Who is really Christ?


I think your logic is flawed - because the San Damiano Crucifix in of itself was never part of Orthodox Tradition.

The Bible, the Liturgy, and the Church Fathers have always been a part of Orthodox Tradition.

The San Damiano Crucifix is heterodox in origin, being made post-schism, which makes it permanently fixed with the Roman Catholic Church - and in addition to this, the only reason why this specific piece of art is popular in the Roman Catholic Church is BECAUSE of Francis of Assisi. If Francis of Assisi did not exist, we wouldn't be talking about the San Damiano Crucifix.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

However, you have to recognize the implications and the messages you are sending to people if you buy it from a Roman Catholic source, you pray using it with other people, and if you wear it as a Pendant.

If you wear it as a Pendant, the message you send to people is "I think Francis of Assisi is a good role model in his life," and the mere act of wearing it as a Pendant is a message to onlookers who are familiar with it is "I firmly believe that the Franciscans are role models to follow, obeying the authority of the Roman Church," simply because this art piece is firmly fixed with Francis of Assisi.


A more accurate comparison would be other heterodox devotions such as the Rosary or the Saint Michael Chaplet.

In the theology that is being prayed with the words on the paper themselves, are they heterodox? In my humble opinion, no (aside from the imagination that is encouraged by Roman Catholics, which is unacceptable).
The former is simply 5 Our Fathers, 50 Angelic Salutations, and 5 Lesser Doxologies, and it was even modified into a prayer rule by Saint Seraphim of Sarov.

However, if you encourage these devotions in of themselves - even if you remove the "imaginative" portions of these prayers - you have to recognize the Rosary's origins with the Roman Saint Dominic and it's direct attachments to Roman Catholic Marian Apparitions (Our Lady of Carmel, Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of La Salette, etc.), the latter which I think are completely unacceptable for an Orthodox to accept.

The same with the Saint Michael Chaplet - a long prayer that is extremely beautiful; it's a prayer in which you ask for the intercessions of Saint Michael and ALL the choirs of angels to help you live a more Christian life. You can find it here:

https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/chaplet-of-st-michael.htm

 - but whose origin was a vision of Saint Michael to a heterodox nun who was promised by "Saint Michael" that they would be delivered from the "sufferings of Purgatory" if they recited it daily. By encouraging this prayer, you are encouraging a false theology simply by it's permanent attachment to this heretical apparition and a heterodox organization.

I consider the Cross of San Damiano the same way - is there anything wrong in of itself? No, but it's an alien to Tradition and should generally not be encouraged, lest - as Seraphim Rose would say - "the tombs of the mind are opened, in which all sorts of dead things and evil spirits crawl out of."
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on December 04, 2017, 08:52:30 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/aWBxG8q.png)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 09:08:14 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/aWBxG8q.png)

You're right - but it's a temptation, because I always want to learn more.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 09:28:14 PM
I want to say this though:

My doubt has been going on for more than a month now, and I decided - out of my despair - to skip the Divine Liturgy and attend the Tridentine Mass, because I felt that this is a question that ultimately I have to rely on my soul to answer. If this was just emotional nostalgia that I needed to get out, I ought to get it out.

Although I didn't pray anything in the Tridentine Mass that would've contradicted both Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, I asked God for peace - just for proof in my soul that this is where God wants me.

When the Eucharist was consecrated, I personally asked Christ Himself "if you are truly present literally right in front of me, in this bread and wine, grant me peace by your Presence. I just want peace in my soul." This was not out of a demand for a sign, but just a request for help in discerning good from evil.

I have faith in the Real Presence of Christ, and just this Bloodless Sacrifice alone can bring one to intimate Love with God.

My response....nothingness.

Nothingness. My soul was disturbed and shaken just as it was before Christ being in the consecration.

My soul has been moved with fear and peace by the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church - which, from a Catholic perspective, means nothing, as the Orthodox have Valid Sacraments from the Orthodox perspective.

In addition, there have been certain things in my life - conversations I've had with Catholic priests, listening to Catholic preachers, listening to the children of this Catholic community talking to each other about the Pope - that for me, I firmly believe God placed there because He wants me in His Orthodox Church, because God is Love.

I asked God for help, and I asked for help from my Guardian Angel.

And I listened to a certain message from a certain person on this forum and thought about the Papacy one final time about EVERYTHING I know about Church History, and I've come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is Truth. There's no way around it.

For me, the definitive moment was this: when I look at the holiness of a family, a mother, a father, their children - and how they interact with the vices and virtues of this world; when it comes to asking God for help, for praise, when it comes to dealing with the tragedy of suffering and death, when it comes to happiness -

For spiritual comfort, did God want these people to find spiritual comfort in one universal, visible king of this world, or to find comfort in their own community's bishop?

And the answer was there.

I also came to the realization that the entire Matthew 16:18 argument of the Papacy was contradicted by the Book of the Apocalypse. Period. There is no way around it (that is, the New Jerusalem was built on stones with the 12 Apostles, and the Key of David was given specifically by Christ to the Church of Philadelphia)


So what I'm fickle, and maybe in three months I will be as melodramatic - but for now, I've gotten out all of my feelings of doubt.


And what will that say about you? When I am feeling despair and lost, where were you in helping your brother - whether you like me or not? Whether you want me to burn in hell or not? Did you merely rolled your eyes on my passion for Christ, or did you give a heartfelt message?

At least on the Catholic forum I'm on, people - dealing with WAY MORE melodrama from me than me - still, out of love, wanted to help me. What does it say about the state of your soul, and all those who read and moved on from this melodramatic message?

Am I fickle? Yes. Deal with it. I'm a human being, who questions things; consider it a flaw of human nature.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 09:36:09 PM
I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."

I said nothing about "rage and anger".  There are more than two reasons why someone might need to calm down (e.g., "working oneself up into a frenzy over things about which one lacks sufficient knowledge and insight").

Then maybe you ought to try to attack my argument than tell me I'm not qualified to give an opinion.

Should I say that you have no right to an opinion about Russian politics and the world, when you probably couldn't even name Vladimir Putin's political party without Googling it? Or perhaps you even couldn't name the Prime Minister of Russia (which, if you couldn't, I would say that that would be sad).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 09:46:07 PM
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.

He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.

He was holier person than I am; spending his whole life giving to the poor, rebuilding churches, owning no property, and literally trying to civilly convert the Sultan to Catholicism, risking death, is something that is more God-like than what I have ever done.

 
Quote
Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?

I didn't know that was an "inflammation" (as adding the word "itis" doesn't make something a disease), nor what you mean by that. You mean the phase of "ultra conservatism" and extent idealism that plagues many interested pre-converts who love the Church?

Yeah probably. At least I don't think the Church has fallen into apostasy over a dang calendar.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on December 04, 2017, 09:50:42 PM
I've been just as fickle and insulting as you are, still am in a lot of ways. I'm also not nearly as settled in beliefs as you seem to be at this moment (hence my postbit). And I feel like the "tough love" from Mor and others here has really helped me. Personally, I don't really see him being unloving towards you. In fact, compared to the way he's treated me over the years (almost entirely, if not entirely, deserved as I can see now), you seem to have gotten off pretty easy.

And I see no evidence that he wants you to burn in Hell, either. He's trying to help you. Running yourself ragged like this is a good ticket to either ending up as a burnt out, angry atheist or hanging yourself. I outta know, I've been close to both outcomes.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 09:53:15 PM
I've been just as fickle and insulting as you are, still am in a lot of ways. I'm also not nearly as settled in beliefs as you seem to be at this moment (hence my postbit). And I feel like the "tough love" from Mor and others here has really helped me. Personally, I don't really see him being unloving towards you. In fact, compared to the way he's treated me over the years (almost entirely, if not entirely, deserved as I can see now), you seem to have gotten off pretty easy.

And I see no evidence that he wants you to burn in Hell, either. He's trying to help you. Running yourself ragged like this is a good ticket to either ending up as a burnt out, angry atheist or hanging yourself. I outta know, I've been close to both outcomes.

I was more or less talking to Antonis rather than Mor with that one post, positing on his views of me.

And the views of that other melodramatic post came from me desiring God while I was burnt out.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on December 04, 2017, 09:59:33 PM
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.

He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.

Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.

Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?

I didn't know that was an "inflammation" (as adding the word "itis" doesn't make something a disease), nor what you mean by that. You mean the phase of "ultra conservatism" and extent idealism that plagues many interested pre-converts who love the Church?

They love their own vision of the Church, at least.

Yeah probably. At least I don't think the Church has fallen into apostasy over a dang calendar.

Not yet you don't.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on December 04, 2017, 10:01:57 PM
I've been just as fickle and insulting as you are, still am in a lot of ways. I'm also not nearly as settled in beliefs as you seem to be at this moment (hence my postbit). And I feel like the "tough love" from Mor and others here has really helped me. Personally, I don't really see him being unloving towards you. In fact, compared to the way he's treated me over the years (almost entirely, if not entirely, deserved as I can see now), you seem to have gotten off pretty easy.

And I see no evidence that he wants you to burn in Hell, either. He's trying to help you. Running yourself ragged like this is a good ticket to either ending up as a burnt out, angry atheist or hanging yourself. I outta know, I've been close to both outcomes.

I was more or less talking to Antonis rather than Mor with that one post, positing on his views of me.

I'm sure all I said is true of Antonis as well.

And the views of that other melodramatic post came from me desiring God while I was burnt out.

And if something hadn't happened that you could interpret as a miraculous sign, what then? Maybe this chasing after experiences and obsessing and hand wringing over theological minutiae was one of the reasons you got so burnt out in the first place?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 04, 2017, 10:26:45 PM
I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."

I said nothing about "rage and anger".  There are more than two reasons why someone might need to calm down (e.g., "working oneself up into a frenzy over things about which one lacks sufficient knowledge and insight").

Then maybe you ought to try to attack my argument than tell me I'm not qualified to give an opinion.

Why would I want to attack your argument?  I don't think you should be arguing anything in the first place.  You need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.  That's not a generic statement.  You in particular need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.   
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 10:30:04 PM
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.

He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.

Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.


May I ask what part of my opinion you disagreed with?
Quote
Woooooow, you're really drinking deep of the cup of convertitis, aren't you?

I didn't know that was an "inflammation" (as adding the word "itis" doesn't make something a disease), nor what you mean by that. You mean the phase of "ultra conservatism" and extent idealism that plagues many interested pre-converts who love the Church?

They love their own vision of the Church, at least.


Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!

To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 10:32:18 PM
I didn't know that sharing a dissident opinion from another individual equivocates to rage and anger, such that I would need to be quote on quote "calmed down."

I said nothing about "rage and anger".  There are more than two reasons why someone might need to calm down (e.g., "working oneself up into a frenzy over things about which one lacks sufficient knowledge and insight").

Then maybe you ought to try to attack my argument than tell me I'm not qualified to give an opinion.

Why would I want to attack your argument?  I don't think you should be arguing anything in the first place.  You need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.  That's not a generic statement.  You in particular need to unlearn a lot before you can learn.   

What exactly did I say that is heterodox or that I need to "unlearn?" Any kind of feedback is fine.
And is anybody here - even if they be a priest - qualified to really give an opinion? Or are we really immature at various levels, progressing towards maturity. I for one will admit that I am very immature, both literally and in my knowledge - but isn't discussion how I learn?

My opinions on the refugee crisis have drastically changed when I heard opinions that I disagreed with and debated with said people (for the better, as a Christian ought to believe).

Then again, maybe you see me as some kind of Pius XIII figure.

(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAA08AAAAJGFkY2E1NjQ0LTI2NjgtNDFhNS1hYmEwLTkxZTA5MzViOWE0MQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on December 04, 2017, 10:40:09 PM
Bro, I’m going to be really frank. You’re not even a neophyte, not even a catechumen. For the record, neophytes are forbidden from teaching. Mor Ephrem has an M. Div. from an Orthodox seminary. Maybe have a little respect and cool it.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 04, 2017, 11:05:58 PM
Bro, I’m going to be really frank. You’re not even a neophyte, not even a catechumen. For the record, neophytes are forbidden from teaching. Mor Ephrem has an M. Div. from an Orthodox seminary. Maybe have a little respect and cool it.

Sure - however, as someone who is not a neophyte or a catechumen, but who desires it one day, it would be beneficial if you could explain what heterodoxy I'm proclaiming in any of the opinions I've given so far.

And if I've come across as disrespectful, feel free to point it out - as I'm all for constructive criticism on any account. Seriously - correct me - I don't want to come across as immature or ignorant.

I'll be open to people who are more educated than me, and admit they're more experienced than a "sophomore" - but if they have an opinion or reasoning which I find invalid (even if it's sound), I'm going to point it out. I would like the same, but so far I've gotten nothing but ad-hominem's, and the lack of attacking the substance of my argument itself.

Believe me, I don't want to be a heretic - so correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on December 04, 2017, 11:25:58 PM
Given that Elder Joseph the Hesychast was actually baptized "Franciscos" and there's at least one Orthodox Church from the 13th Century with an icon of him of the wall, and Fr. Lazarus Moore's story of him appearing in a dream to a French woman and telling her to go Orthodox--Francis at least seems to be a bit of a grey area.

That doesn't mean he should be canonized by the Orthodox Church or that everything he said or that has been said in his name is good, but it is food for thought.

He is a grey area - and I don't know about his sanctity. But your argument is exactly one of my concerns for the "Orthodoxy" of the San Damino cross, with the person of Francis of Assisi, who is permanently fixed with such art.

Why? Someone can use Origen's Haxapla or Tatian's Diatesseron or Eusebius's history and yet not consider them Saints nor even really give them personally a second thought.


May I ask what part of my opinion you disagreed with?

The idea that the San Damiano crucifix is somehow tainted or unusable because of Francis.


Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!

Of course you can't avoid having it. You can avoid being a dogmatic jackhole about it or obsessing over it until you run yourself ragged.

Something else that I'm sure you'll dismiss as irreparably tainted because a nonorthodox said it:
 (http://www.hiswayministries.org/fddisillusion.htm)
Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer
He who loves his dream of a community more that the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

...

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own laws, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of the brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together.

To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.

All of whom were at least twice your age, both spiritually and temporally. All of whom were experienced clergymen. None of whom drastically changed their tone once a week like an unmedicated schizophrenic.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 05, 2017, 12:44:51 AM
The idea that the San Damiano crucifix is somehow tainted or unusable because of Francis.

Does it make it unOrthodox as an art piece? No - it is still Byzantine in its style and it is what I call "iconographic" - being 2-dimensional, having symbolic colors, and trying to transcend the materialism of this world. It's a better art-piece for veneration than some certain Russian Orthodox artwork I'm thinking of.

The only thing that I - from an Orthodox perspective - would find somewhat problematic is its direct connection to Francis of Assisi; that is, this is the Crucifix that apparently talked to Francis and told him to "restore my Church."

However, in terms of art - I'm of the opinion there's nothing intrinsically heterodox in its art.

Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.


Is it possible to NOT have one's own vision of the Church, and to live in a state of objectively following the Truth while not having any opinions on anything? I didn't realize that the Orthodox Tradition was so legalistic!

Quote
Of course you can't avoid having it. You can avoid being a dogmatic jackhole about it or obsessing over it until you run yourself ragged.

Something else that I'm sure you'll dismiss as irreparably tainted because a nonorthodox said it:
 (http://www.hiswayministries.org/fddisillusion.htm)
Quote from: Dietrich Bonhoeffer
He who loves his dream of a community more that the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.

...

God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own laws, and judges the brethren and God himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of the brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together.


I gave an opinion about the San Damiano cross. Is this obsessing about it?

True, I am prideful and do not like losing arguments, even if they are over stupid junk like the ethics of praying using a San Damiano cross. And I love shoving down my opinions down people's throats.

Also, your argument that I think everything heterodox is tainted is misrepresenting my position - and is easily disproved by the images I've posted in this thread.


Quote
To suggest that you don't have a vision of the Church and you are purely following objectivity is dishonest, especially when Saint Mark of Ephesus, Saint Photios, and Saint Isidore of Yuriev were all extremely hostile both in speech and in writing against the Roman Church in their theology.

All of whom were at least twice your age, both spiritually and temporally. All of whom were experienced clergymen. None of whom drastically changed their tone once a week like an unmedicated schizophrenic.

True.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 05, 2017, 12:56:24 PM
What exactly did I say that is heterodox or that I need to "unlearn?" Any kind of feedback is fine.

Apparently not.
 
Quote
And is anybody here - even if they be a priest - qualified to really give an opinion?

Yes.  I am really qualified to give an opinion.

Quote
I for one will admit that I am very immature, both literally and in my knowledge - but isn't discussion how I learn?

If you're always talking, you'll never listen, and you cannot learn without listening. 

Quote
Then again, maybe you see me as some kind of Pius XIII figure.

(https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAA08AAAAJGFkY2E1NjQ0LTI2NjgtNDFhNS1hYmEwLTkxZTA5MzViOWE0MQ.jpg)

lol no
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: maneki_neko on December 06, 2017, 01:28:28 AM
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me personally, but I wouldn't say I "went out of my way to make this cross a part of [my] spiritual life". It was something I picked up on a generic tour through Italy, and being the uneducated church history (eastern and western) noob that I was (still am, but hopefully slowly climbing out of that hole) bought without realizing the cross was specifically attached to Francis. My (raised) RC husband doesn't even know it's associated with Francis.

Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away. Those few hours at the monastery was my first impressionable contact with a form of rooted Christianity, and I think planted the seeds for Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: maneki_neko on December 06, 2017, 01:29:45 AM
double post
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on December 06, 2017, 01:57:04 AM
And I listened to a certain message from a certain person on this forum and thought about the Papacy one final time about EVERYTHING I know about Church History, and I've come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is Truth. There's no way around it.
Glory be to God! 
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 06, 2017, 11:57:40 AM
Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away.

I have one.  I didn't go out of my way to get it, someone gave it to me.  I kept it. 

It's a cross.  It's an icon.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 06, 2017, 12:01:19 PM
Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with the art piece itself - and I don't think it's unusable. However, I would say that it is "tainted" in the sense of one going OUT OF THEIR WAY to make this Cross a part of their spiritual life - mostly on two basis:

1. This is seen as a very holy image in Roman Catholicism and is wide spread because of it's miraculous nature towards Francis of Assisi.
2. An ethical basis of giving support and credence to Roman Catholicism and the Franciscans.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me personally, but I wouldn't say I "went out of my way to make this cross a part of [my] spiritual life". It was something I picked up on a generic tour through Italy, and being the uneducated church history (eastern and western) noob that I was (still am, but hopefully slowly climbing out of that hole) bought without realizing the cross was specifically attached to Francis. My (raised) RC husband doesn't even know it's associated with Francis.

Well now what to do with it? Of course it's not technically an Orthodox work despite its Byzantine influence, but I don't feel right just throwing it away or even giving it away. Those few hours at the monastery was my first impressionable contact with a form of rooted Christianity, and I think planted the seeds for Orthodoxy.


I think personally it's fine in that context.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 06, 2017, 07:54:14 PM
I think I'll resume the thread's intention.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 06, 2017, 08:02:06 PM
The Monreale Cathedral has pretty mosaics.

Temptation of Christ from Monreale Cathedral

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3e/62/ee/3e62eeb4606a4dc3a808d508557027c9.jpg)

The Three Angels of Abraham

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f1/3e/c9/f13ec97f2aedf633bfdaf5368c8a21cb.jpg)

Christ and the Samaritan Woman

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/01/97/ed/0197ed1bf189dd0f94c5bd301bc36339--roman-mosaics-orthodox-christianity.jpg)

Christ driving the Merchants out of the Temple

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/dc/d9/54dcd99291b0e454de96ef2ba6b1ab89.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 06, 2017, 08:14:54 PM
Saint Justinian from San Vitale Basilica

(http://www.ravennamosaici.it/wp-content/themes/oxygen/images/slideshow/san_vitale/06.jpg)

Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 06, 2017, 08:34:37 PM
Christ Enthroned on the Cherubim

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/5983926325_d5654238d0_o1.jpg)

Theotokos and Child, Surrounded by Life of Theotokos

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/5983939317_89c960cb16_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 10, 2017, 04:12:08 AM
Theotokos, Giver of Milk, with Saint Leonard of Noblac and Saint Peter, surrounded by the life of Saint Peter.

(http://b02.deliver.odai.yale.edu/d0/2c/d02cd408-3471-4793-943f-c326e9f0c7c4/ag-obj-286-033-pub-med.jpg)

Full size image:
http://b02.deliver.odai.yale.edu/d0/2c/d02cd408-3471-4793-943f-c326e9f0c7c4/ag-obj-286-033-pub-large.jpg
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 10, 2017, 04:29:40 AM
Apse of Santa Maria in Domnica from the 9th Century

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me. He seemed to have friendly relations with the Eastern Churches, but this is the century where the real problems between Rome and the Eastern Churches became apparent.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg/800px-Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg)

Full size image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on December 10, 2017, 08:22:56 AM

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on December 10, 2017, 09:03:20 AM

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.

Somebody should have told me that long before I even considered Catechumenate. Would have saved me from a lot of hyperdox-ish distress.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on December 10, 2017, 03:47:55 PM
You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.
I think that's the normal result of we who are used to the unified state-society era, in which law and behaviour tend to become one, converting to religion. Many of us have been through this. The thing is Muslims have many times across history strived for some other kind of state-society unity, which resulted in the Wahhabi OCD abomination.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 10, 2017, 04:06:16 PM
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

Congratulations, you resolved your own doubt.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 10, 2017, 05:05:45 PM
The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

Congratulations, you resolved your own doubt.

Pope Nicholas I is also a pre-schism saint in the Roman Catholic Church. He's definitely not a Saint in Orthodoxy, because he caused the Photian schism and demanded Papal Supremacy. Pope Paschal was Pope around this time period, and I'm unfamiliar with his relationship with the Eastern Churches.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 10, 2017, 05:10:29 PM

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me.

You are really preoccupied with everything being explicitly permitted or forbidden. That’s not how orthodox Christianity works. Maybe Wahhabism or something.

Your talking to someone who is used to hearing debates about whether or not the Novus Ordo is forbidden or not, whether or not Vatican II was a valid council or not, or whether or not the 1962 Tridentine Missal is acceptable compared to the 1955 Tridentine Missal, and whether or not one could find salvation in the FSSP or the SSPX. Mess up on one of these and you are probably damned to hell.

Also, due to my bad experiences with some Catholic education and lukewarm Catholic clergy, I still have a serious mistrust of authority that I need to overcome. I'm always on the defensive and feel that I need to constantly be informed lest I'm led to the slaughter.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 10, 2017, 07:32:24 PM
I'm unfamiliar

Yup.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 10, 2017, 07:39:38 PM
I'm unfamiliar

Yup.

I feel like that we are gonna have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship on this board.

You got me I guess and disproved my comment which was an open ended question?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 10, 2017, 08:15:29 PM
I'm unfamiliar

Yup.

I feel like that we are gonna have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship on this board.

I have a healthy, functional, Christian relationship with everyone on this board.

Quote
You got me I guess and disproved my comment which was an open ended question?

I just think you need to do more listening and less talking.  As long as you continue to disagree with that, doing your own thing is going to lead you into some bad places.   
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 10, 2017, 11:31:14 PM

I just think you need to do more listening and less talking.  As long as you continue to disagree with that, doing your own thing is going to lead you into some bad places.   

However, I will point out your contradiction in that you constantly scold people who hold that "everything" from the West is heretical and certain beautiful things from the West can be Orthodox.

Yet here I am, a schismatic from the West, who is told that "everything" from me shouldn't be allowed.

Yet if it benefits the Holy Orthodox Church, I will obey and be quiet. If there is an Eastern Orthodox MDiv or priest on this forum who agrees with your sentiments, I will obey and shut up (although I'm shutting up anyways, because God wants me to, not because of some of your comments).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Porter ODoran on December 11, 2017, 12:35:13 AM
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 11, 2017, 01:01:11 AM
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.

Something happened to me today which I view as Divine Providence - where I was talking about theology to some Orthodox friends of mine and a poor couple of homeless women asked for 30$ - which I didn't have even on debit (one more week till I go home for the Semester) after they heard me talking about theology - which only led them to shouting at me "hypocrite! hypocrite! You're responsible for us freezing to death! This is why I don't trust religion or you so called "Christians!" Nobody helps us! We knocked on the Greek Cathedral's doors, but they wouldn't help us!" I tried sending them to another Church, but they would have none of it.

It was very clear at that moment it was God telling me to stop being so sophistic in theology, because I have no right to talk about it where I am in my life.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Porter ODoran on December 11, 2017, 01:00:41 PM
Neither do I. Theology is to be lived. Good for you.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 11, 2017, 01:25:54 PM
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.

+1
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Brigidsboy on December 11, 2017, 02:18:38 PM
He's not talking about what you're allowed, but what's healthful and can cause you to grow.

Agreed!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 31, 2017, 06:43:54 PM
From the Lindisfarne Gospels

Saint Matthew
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7f/4c/ef/7f4cef599554f66e58773cfc2ce9dac8.jpg)

Saint Mark
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4010/4384202789_df0144b950_b.jpg)

Saint Luke

(http://imageweb-cdn.magnoliasoft.net/britishlibrary/supersize/pod86.jpg)

Saint John

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9Vdy__XYc7g/Uv117nIdcVI/AAAAAAABnZg/hhRtel_t04s/s1600/Lindisfarne+Gospels+-+St+John+f.+209v++British+Library+Early+Anglo-Saxon+%E2%80%93+Scotland+%E2%80%93+7C+or+8C.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on December 31, 2017, 06:45:31 PM
6th Century Irish icon of Saint Columba

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/42/2e/54/422e542c53db912709d5aebb7b7814ad--religious-icons-religious-art.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Hawkeye on December 31, 2017, 09:07:26 PM
Saint Columba may be from the 6th century but that is rather the work of our own contemporary Daniel Mitsui. An interview with him that showcases this piece and others. (https://www.catholicgentleman.net/2016/05/art-gods-sake-interview-artist-daniel-mitsui/)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: hecma925 on January 03, 2018, 12:07:20 PM
Nice dead, soulless eyes.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on January 03, 2018, 12:40:37 PM
Nice dead, soulless eyes.

Looks like St. Columba has been drinking past few weeks but trying to act sober when his aunt is coming for a suprise visit.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Rhinosaur on January 04, 2018, 12:51:25 AM
Has the Bessarion Reliquary been posted yet?

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8245/8662800364_2293f70c00_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 04, 2018, 07:01:30 PM
Saint Columba may be from the 6th century but that is rather the work of our own contemporary Daniel Mitsui. An interview with him that showcases this piece and others. (https://www.catholicgentleman.net/2016/05/art-gods-sake-interview-artist-daniel-mitsui/)

Thanks for the correction; my bad!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 04, 2018, 07:02:37 PM
Nice dead, soulless eyes.

Looks like St. Columba has been drinking past few weeks but trying to act sober when his aunt is coming for a suprise visit.

Yes, the eyes are indeed over emphasized and too bright - however, they still seem to be in the same styling as actual Celtic Christian art. Compare the eyes to the Lindisfarne Gospel icons.

And I've seen worse Byzantine icons.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 04, 2018, 07:11:25 PM
13th century English Psalter

It shows the "Cross" as the "Tree of Life," with the Virgin Mary and John; the top left represents the Church of Christ, with the top right representing the Old Covenant; the bottom left is Saint Peter, the bottom right seems to be Antichrist (the source I've gotten this from says it's Moses, but considering it looks like Christ and it has devil horns... I don't really think so). A small attention to detail is that the "scripture" that the Antichrist is holding is flipped while the Scripture Saint Peter is holding as well as the Scripture of Saint John are in the same direction.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5a/ce/1c/5ace1c0ed0e9c069fac049bcf6c3bb88--tree-of-life-a-tree.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 04, 2018, 07:38:25 PM
Theotokos and Child, surrounded by Annunciation, Visitation, Visitation of Three Magi, Birth of Christ, and Presentation of Christ

(https://image.ibb.co/nLGt7G/a6e058cf89af4771a1e2ca9db03daa31.jpg)

Full size image:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjX19movL_YAhXBc98KHZsdBucQjBwIBA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmuseums.blob.core.windows.net%2Fdata%2FDocuments%2FCONTENT%2Fsg.net%2F380328%2Fa6e058cf89af4771a1e2ca9db03daa31.jpg&psig=AOvVaw2FCEOpDuSbc6Yprba0Ia6_&ust=1515195061833189
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on January 04, 2018, 11:41:20 PM
13th century English Psalter

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5a/ce/1c/5ace1c0ed0e9c069fac049bcf6c3bb88--tree-of-life-a-tree.jpg)

I'm not sure that it's the enemy of the human race, but more likely Moses, who's often depicted with horns (after the Latin Vulgata translation of Ex. 34).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on January 05, 2018, 12:49:49 AM
Apse of Santa Maria in Domnica from the 9th Century

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me. He seemed to have friendly relations with the Eastern Churches, but this is the century where the real problems between Rome and the Eastern Churches became apparent.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg/800px-Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg)

Full size image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg
Pope Paschal I is the first Pope of the Byzantine papacy so yes he is a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on January 05, 2018, 01:06:26 AM
Mosaics from the Church of San Vitale in Ravenna:

(http://www.christianiconography.info/Edited%20in%202013/Italy/apseSanVitale.smal.jpg)

(https://ka-perseus-images.s3.amazonaws.com/ca5a06f171f007791f7a362047a3aa0d447f612c.jpg)

(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/GGRH6R/ceiling-mosaic-above-the-presbytery-of-the-basilica-of-san-vitale-GGRH6R.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 05, 2018, 01:49:02 AM

I'm not sure that it's the enemy of the human race, but more likely Moses, who's often depicted with horns (after the Latin Vulgata translation of Ex. 34).

Makes sense I guess. I should read the Old Testament more... (yes, I know, Moses wasn't horned - his face was lit up with light).

It made more sense considering the top left had something good, and the top right had something bad.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 08, 2018, 12:08:12 AM
Saint Dunstan from a Psalter:

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/2f/c3/b4/2fc3b416afafe1e68fe78332f34e1471.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 10, 2018, 07:59:58 PM
I noticed there's seems to be little Stained Glass Window artwork here, so:

From the Chatres Cathedral:

(https://gardeninacity.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/2013-09-06-06-16-56.jpg)


(https://i.amz.mshcdn.com/GMZnUCU5d1iyiCxsMkHV_BUhNfk=/fit-in/1200x9600/https%3A%2F%2Fblueprint-api-production.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fuploads%2Fcard%2Fimage%2F562433%2F41b447af-70de-4ae6-83ac-389a5a46c3cc.jpg)



(https://gardeninacity.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/2013-09-06-06-47-28.jpg)



(https://d3dqioy2sca31t.cloudfront.net/Projects/cms/production/000/021/981/large/f02e3c87b29f235848259236dae959e2/france-chartres-cathedral-stained-glass-051817-az.jpg)

Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: MalpanaGiwargis on January 10, 2018, 10:05:06 PM
13th century English Psalter

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5a/ce/1c/5ace1c0ed0e9c069fac049bcf6c3bb88--tree-of-life-a-tree.jpg)

I'm not sure that it's the enemy of the human race, but more likely Moses, who's often depicted with horns (after the Latin Vulgata translation of Ex. 34).

It's definitely Moses - Michelangelo's Moses also has horns:

(http://taylormarshall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/horns-of-Moses.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 12, 2018, 11:40:00 PM
Christ Enthroned

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Florentinischer_Meister_um_1300_001.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 13, 2018, 12:34:30 AM
Now, admittedly this one's from Domingo Ram in the 15th century.

Saint Martial, Saint Sebastian, and Saint Mary Magdalen.

(https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/cl/original/cdi25-120-674.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on January 13, 2018, 12:39:00 AM
Angel Appearing to Zacharias

(https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_25.120.929.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 12, 2018, 02:31:13 PM
I just wanted to apologize for being completely wrong on the San Damiano Cross discussion.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: juliogb on March 12, 2018, 02:44:50 PM
(https://fthmb.tqn.com/Yow-6k_Iqjlx6QE1UdNlg7pwhOg=/768x0/filters:no_upscale()/romanesque-artdetail-Ta-ll-89666983-crop-58e30e275f9b58ef7e145780.jpg)

Christ Pantokrator in the apse of San Clemente in Taüll, Catalonia, Spain.


Carrizo Christ, replica
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/99/98/b299988cfac20bcdb87d87483512ca2e.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 12, 2018, 04:08:48 PM
I just wanted to apologize for being completely wrong on the San Damiano Cross discussion.

Eh, don't worry about it. If I posted an apology every time I've been completely wrong, I'd be posting them in half the threads on the site :)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 12, 2018, 05:10:08 PM
Saint Mark, from Saint Mark's Anglican Church in Portland, Oregon.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LhUkxP17WII/SwoYqBukuaI/AAAAAAAABLc/JssRbflEAAs/s1600/GEDC0903.JPG)

Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 12, 2018, 05:16:34 PM
Holy Name Roman Catholic Church in Columbus, Ohio

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Holy_Name_Church_%28Columbus%2C_Ohio%29_-_interior%2C_apse_mural.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: juliogb on March 13, 2018, 07:08:59 AM
Holy Name Roman Catholic Church in Columbus, Ohio

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Holy_Name_Church_%28Columbus%2C_Ohio%29_-_interior%2C_apse_mural.jpg)

That's beautiful!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 13, 2018, 08:17:09 AM
^^ Indeed, my first thought, when I was the picture, without the description: What a beautiful Orthodox church! :) (espeically that this construction below looks like the top part of the iconostasis).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: biro on March 13, 2018, 09:40:19 AM
I'd like to get an icon of St. David.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on March 13, 2018, 11:09:31 AM
I'd like to get an icon of St. David.

That seems to be available on Monastery Icons:

https://www.monasteryicons.com/product/st-david-of-wales-icon-408/icons-of-saints
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 13, 2018, 12:07:18 PM
I'd like to get an icon of St. David.

Uncut Mountain Supply also has one:
http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-saints/by-name/d-f/icon-of-st-david-of-wales-20th-c-1da15/
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Antonis on March 13, 2018, 12:15:06 PM
I'd like to get an icon of St. David.

Uncut Mountain Supply also has one:
http://www.uncutmountainsupply.com/icons/of-saints/by-name/d-f/icon-of-st-david-of-wales-20th-c-1da15/
Nice sakkos, St. David of Wales! ;)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 13, 2018, 01:18:43 PM
^^ Indeed, my first thought, when I was the picture, without the description: What a beautiful Orthodox church! :) (espeically that this construction below looks like the top part of the iconostasis).

The one little detail that I love is the Trinity at the very top - engraved with God's Name (LORD) in Hebrew.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 13, 2018, 02:42:17 PM
^^ Indeed, my first thought, when I was the picture, without the description: What a beautiful Orthodox church! :) (espeically that this construction below looks like the top part of the iconostasis).

The one little detail that I love is the Trinity at the very top - engraved with God's Name (LORD) in Hebrew.
Oh yeah, I haven't noticed it! That's nice - thank you.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 19, 2018, 02:23:26 AM
12th century crucifixion icon in church of San Clemente

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ee/cf/36/eecf36c52b897662976eaaead5321a2d--byzantine-icons-orthodox-icons.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 19, 2018, 02:27:50 AM
Christ the good shepard mosaic from the Mausoleum of Galla Placida

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/32/97/1e32977b900a32378ca24038a22ee7ae.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 19, 2018, 02:30:06 AM
Christ Enthroned
I believe it's Christ in glory.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LBK on March 19, 2018, 02:45:10 AM
Christ Enthroned
I believe it's Christ in glory.

It's known by neither title. That composition is derived from the iconography of the Ascension.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 19, 2018, 03:09:05 AM
Christ Enthroned
I believe it's Christ in glory.

It's known by neither title. That composition is derived from the iconography of the Ascension.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: brlon on March 19, 2018, 03:22:36 AM
Christ Enthroned

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Florentinischer_Meister_um_1300_001.jpg)

This is clearly a depiction of The Last Judgement.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on March 19, 2018, 11:18:09 AM
Those toes...
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 19, 2018, 06:41:47 PM
Those toes...

Yeah, it is kind of a strange perspective, isn't it?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 19, 2018, 07:24:12 PM
Those toes...

Yeah, it is kind of a strange perspective, isn't it?
It looks like they're trying to grip something but nothing's there.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: biro on March 19, 2018, 09:26:10 PM
I think they're reaching for the crossbar.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 19, 2018, 11:49:50 PM
Saint Bede the Venerable

(http://www.thomryng.com/amateurmonk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Saint-Bede-the-Venerable.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 20, 2018, 01:03:14 AM
The Virgin and Child from the book of Kells:

(https://www.petersommer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Book-of-Kells-folio-7v-Virgin-and-Child-sq.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 20, 2018, 01:47:51 AM
The Virgin and Child from the book of Kells:

Interesting... but a couple of questions immediately come to mind.

1. What is with the mole / beauty mark on Jesus?
2. Why is the Virgin Mary's breasts drawn?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 20, 2018, 02:39:03 AM
The Virgin and Child from the book of Kells:

Interesting... but a couple of questions immediately come to mind.

1. What is with the mole / beauty mark on Jesus?

My guess would be some kind of royalty symbolism (or it's just a flaw on the photo).

2. Why is the Virgin Mary's breasts drawn?

Breast feeding imagery is not uncommon in Medieval Western depictions (and a few Eastern). I'm guessing the artist just wanted to have both kinds of image in there at the same time.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on March 20, 2018, 09:45:22 AM
For Christmas I got Christopher De Hamel's beautiful book, Meetings with Remarkable Manuscripts. His assessment of this particular image from the Book of Kells:

Quote
As a result of what I am about to say, I shall probably have my permission to visit the Republic of Ireland revoked for ever, but the picture is dreadfully ugly. Mary's head is far too big for her body, and she has huge staring red-lined eyes and a long nose which looks as though it is dripping downwards, and a tiny mouth. Her pendulous breasts are visible through her purple tunic, and her little legs stick out sideways like a child's drawing. The baby, seen in profile, is grotesque and unadorable, with wild red hair like seaweed, protruding upturned nose and chin, and a worrying red line from his nose to his ear, perhaps a foreshadow of Christ's beard in later life. The child has two left feet. I am not qualified to say whether the four unpleasant-looking angels are lifelike, but they are certainly anatomically very improbable beneath their weighty garments.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Cavaradossi on March 20, 2018, 10:00:39 AM
Apse of Santa Maria in Domnica from the 9th Century

The only potential problem is the icon of Pope Paschal I (the weird square halo person), who is a pre-schism Saint in the Roman Catholic Church, but whose canonization status in the Orthodox Church is unknown for me. He seemed to have friendly relations with the Eastern Churches, but this is the century where the real problems between Rome and the Eastern Churches became apparent.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg/800px-Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg)

Full size image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Santa_Maria_in_Domnica_-_apse_mosaic.jpg

You have much to learn about iconography. It is common for donors and important esslesiastical figures (likes archbishops) to appear in icons and mosaics of that era, offering church buildings to Christ, supplicating Christ, standing next to an icon of a saint, etc. Obviously if one were to copy the mosaic, one would likely leave Pope Paschal out since his appearance elsewhere would be out of context, but there's nothing wrong with his presence in the original. In other words, he appears here because he was directly involved in rebuilding this basilica, and the square halo likely indicates that he was still living at the time the mosaic was made.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 20, 2018, 10:17:58 AM
For Christmas I got Christopher De Hamel's beautiful book, Meetings with Remarkable Manuscripts. His assessment of this particular image from the Book of Kells:

Quote
As a result of what I am about to say, I shall probably have my permission to visit the Republic of Ireland revoked for ever, but the picture is dreadfully ugly. Mary's head is far too big for her body, and she has huge staring red-lined eyes and a long nose which looks as though it is dripping downwards, and a tiny mouth. Her pendulous breasts are visible through her purple tunic, and her little legs stick out sideways like a child's drawing. The baby, seen in profile, is grotesque and unadorable, with wild red hair like seaweed, protruding upturned nose and chin, and a worrying red line from his nose to his ear, perhaps a foreshadow of Christ's beard in later life. The child has two left feet. I am not qualified to say whether the four unpleasant-looking angels are lifelike, but they are certainly anatomically very improbable beneath their weighty garments.

Wow, lol! Can't say I disagree with him, to honest...
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: WPM on March 20, 2018, 10:41:56 AM
Instead of looking at icons maybe you should learn to pray.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 20, 2018, 10:47:50 AM
Instead of looking at icons maybe you should learn to pray.

The two can be easily intertwined.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 20, 2018, 02:56:09 PM
Again from the book of Kells:

(http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/insular/kells/matthew.jpg)

Besides Ethiopian iconography I feel that the Celts had the most unique style.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 20, 2018, 08:16:36 PM
Again from the book of Kells:

(http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/insular/kells/matthew.jpg)

Besides Ethiopian iconography I feel that the Celts had the most unique style.

Yeah, this one I like.

Strictly speaking, it's not just Celtic though. It's called "Insular" (meaning "Of the Brittish Isles") or "Hiberno-Saxon," since the post-Roman monks of England had pretty much the same art style at the time.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on March 20, 2018, 10:32:43 PM
From the Book of Kells:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZelWF5G1Ir4/hqdefault.jpg)

:D
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 21, 2018, 12:15:18 AM
From the Book of Kells:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZelWF5G1Ir4/hqdefault.jpg)
What the heck am I looking at?  ???
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 21, 2018, 12:19:29 AM
One of my favorite mosaics of the Theotokos and Christ from Ravenna:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/92/25/969225c412a0dc56e6c256fa333e926c.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 21, 2018, 12:59:15 AM
From the Book of Kells:

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZelWF5G1Ir4/hqdefault.jpg)
What the heck am I looking at?  ???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_(Mart%C3%ADnez_and_Gim%C3%A9nez,_Borja) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_(Mart%C3%ADnez_and_Gim%C3%A9nez,_Borja))
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 21, 2018, 01:30:20 AM
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_(Mart%C3%ADnez_and_Gim%C3%A9nez,_Borja) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecce_Homo_(Mart%C3%ADnez_and_Gim%C3%A9nez,_Borja))

Thank you.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 21, 2018, 05:18:40 AM
Welcome.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 21, 2018, 07:03:00 AM
Fr. Philippe Péneaud's (https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/fr-philippe-peneaud-romanesque-iconography-today/) modern Romanesque wood carvings, some of which are based on Medieval prototypes.

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/visite-1024x891.jpg)

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Sans-titre-Num%C3%A9risation-01.jpg)

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/christ-en-majest%C3%A92.jpg)

(https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/jacob-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 21, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
Weingarten Missal from Germany

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/13th-century_painters_-_Weingarten_Missal_-_WGA15936.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 22, 2018, 01:05:03 AM
Saint Ambrose Mosaic from the Basilica of Sant'Ambrogio.

(https://medievalmilanetc.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/basilica-sant-ambrogio-milano2.gif)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 22, 2018, 07:35:41 PM
The killing of Able from Sicily

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wUI6qYkH1wk/S39dF-3Mz8I/AAAAAAAABgw/7hvDRr8__lw/s400/Cain+%26+Abel.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 22, 2018, 07:48:40 PM
Cain after Abel's murder:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5a/6e/ab/5a6eab8a5272163d85b201d1d42b0962.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 22, 2018, 07:51:23 PM
Saint Ambrose Mosaic from the Basilica of Sant'Ambrogio.

(https://medievalmilanetc.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/basilica-sant-ambrogio-milano2.gif)

I also thought that made him look a bit like George Carlin (maybe Ringo Starr).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 23, 2018, 06:57:12 AM
Weingarten Missal from Germany

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/13th-century_painters_-_Weingarten_Missal_-_WGA15936.jpg)

Love it! Plus the legs are separated!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 23, 2018, 07:06:53 PM
Down with the heresy of Triclavianism! :P
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 24, 2018, 12:33:18 AM
The miraculous catch in sant'apollinare nuovo:

(http://pemptousia.com/files/2014/09/mozaic-Basilica-di-SantApollinare-Nuovo-Ravenna-s6-IN.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 24, 2018, 07:06:45 AM
Down with the heresy of Triclavianism! :P

:laugh:

Some Orthodox (at least in some parts of Poland) are convinced that the 4th nail was stolen by a Gypsy.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 24, 2018, 04:32:09 PM
Down with the heresy of Triclavianism! :P

:laugh:

Some Orthodox (at least in some parts of Poland) are convinced that the 4th nail was stolen by a Gypsy.

Hah! Well, there's only three nails on the Coat of Arms of Drahovce, Slovokia. Maybe there's some historical relation.

(http://obecdrahovce.sk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/drahovce.png)


Apparently, St. Gregory of Tours thought that they one of them got thrown into the Adriatic to calm a storm.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 24, 2018, 04:39:19 PM
Wow, so interesting.
I've found a description in Slovak

Quote
Obec má svoj  erb, ktorý schválilo obecné zastupiteľstvo dňa 22. 04. 1997. Je umiestnený na obecnom úrade, na začiatku, a na konci obce. Zobrazené sú na ňom tri klince, pripomínajúce ukrižovaného Ježiša Krista a patria k tzv. arma christi, sú aj symbolom Rádu jezuitov, ktorí pôsobili v našej obci. Pri skrížení nôh sa použil len jeden klinec a dva na ruky. Slnko a dva klasy symbolizujú slnečný kraj, a úrodnú pôdu.

From this site: http://obecdrahovce.sk/navstevnik/insignie/
It seems it's because of the Jesuits (always these guys!)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 24, 2018, 06:22:46 PM
Oh, wow. Thanks.

And I'm surprised that it was only approved in 1997. Guess they had to wait for the fall of Communism.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 26, 2018, 03:26:06 PM
This is one of the most beautiful pieces of art from the 12th century, France.

(http://www.learn.columbia.edu/treasuresofheaven/relics/jpegs/117.85.jpg)

http://www.learn.columbia.edu/treasuresofheaven/relics/Reliquary-of-the-True-Cross-85.php
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 26, 2018, 09:11:08 PM
Christ mosaic from Santa Costanza

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4052/4708496122_6ff25ee6c4_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 26, 2018, 10:44:58 PM
Here's a nice article on the first english bible:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2013/04/the-first-english-bible/
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 27, 2018, 01:36:43 AM
Really interesting, thanks! I always wondered why so much non-liturgical Anglo-Saxon (and Old Irish) didn't lead to a translation of the liturgy from Latin. Did the bishops/Pope block it or did the people not want it?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 28, 2018, 01:15:49 PM
Pietro Lorenzetti

(http://musierowicz.com.pl/mm/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/lorenzetti_intocht_grt.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 28, 2018, 03:27:48 PM
Really interesting, thanks! I always wondered why so much non-liturgical Anglo-Saxon (and Old Irish) didn't lead to a translation of the liturgy from Latin. Did the bishops/Pope block it or did the people not want it?

From what I’ve been told, the people didn’t want it because the Celts said the liturgy in the language of the people. Celtic Christianity, before 1066,was much closer to the Orthodox church.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on March 28, 2018, 03:39:41 PM
There is no such thing as "Celtic Christianity". The Irish, Welsh, etc said mass in Latin.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 28, 2018, 03:50:31 PM
There is no such thing as "Celtic Christianity". The Irish, Welsh, etc said mass in Latin.

I know. I'm just confused as to why- the Slavs got a translation of the Mass, the Ethiopians got one, etc.

I suppose it could be explained in terms of the Welsh and Anglo-Saxons (and the Celts of the Continent) in that they were already used to speaking Latin at least in terms of official business. But I don't think the Picts north of Hardian's Wall or the Irish were ever really under Roman rule to much extent.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on March 28, 2018, 03:57:24 PM
As Sts Cyril and Methodius found in Moravia, translating the liturgy into local vernaculars was a point of controversy in the West. The prevailing attitude in Rome was that there were a few sacred languages- Hebrew, Greek, Latin (maybe Syriac too?) and that was it. Pope Nicholas seemed to have gone against the grain in supporting their Slavic liturgy, against the wishes of Latin clergy in the region, and his successor Stephen V overturned this support. 
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on March 28, 2018, 04:02:11 PM
One could post anything in St. Isaac's church in St. Petersburg in this thread.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: MalpanaGiwargis on March 28, 2018, 04:26:20 PM
As Sts Cyril and Methodius found in Moravia, translating the liturgy into local vernaculars was a point of controversy in the West. The prevailing attitude in Rome was that there were a few sacred languages- Hebrew, Greek, Latin (maybe Syriac too?) and that was it. Pope Nicholas seemed to have gone against the grain in supporting their Slavic liturgy, against the wishes of Latin clergy in the region, and his successor Stephen V overturned this support.

I think the idea was that only the three languages written on the titulus on Christ's Cross were considered sacred. Hebrew/Syriac-Aramaic were not always clearly distinguished in the West.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 28, 2018, 04:31:52 PM
So, I guess they just wrote off the Armenians, Georgians, and Ethiopians as heretics (and forgot that the Malankara existed)?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on March 28, 2018, 05:07:51 PM
One could post anything in St. Isaac's church in St. Petersburg in this thread.

Plus of many other churches that were built in that period in Russia(including Polish territorries too, as we were under Russian occupation)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 28, 2018, 06:41:03 PM
Entrance into Jerusalem from the Vita Christi (Life of Christ)

(http://ica.themorgan.org/icaimages/4/m44.006r.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 28, 2018, 06:55:19 PM
Christ Enthroned from Vita Christi (Life of Christ)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/8a/4d/548a4d37c37b63fb46652458e3c65918.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 28, 2018, 06:59:24 PM
Saint Michael from 13th century German manuscript

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/bd/4c/72/bd4c72d2cc93fb18f32c6ff38d6eac2d.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 28, 2018, 09:50:25 PM
Mosaic of Christ in Santa Prassede Rome:

(http://etc.usf.edu/clippix/pix/rome-santa-prassede-apse-mosaic-overview-christ-and-saints_medium.jpg)

Pope Paschal was alive in this mosaic as well! as referenced by the square halo.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 28, 2018, 09:53:43 PM
Christ represented as a Roman solider:

(https://2guysreadinggibbon.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/early-christian-mosaic.jpg?w=500)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 28, 2018, 10:58:15 PM
Christ represented as a Roman solider:

(https://2guysreadinggibbon.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/early-christian-mosaic.jpg?w=500)

This gives more credence to the idea the beardless Christ was supposed to equivocate Christ to the Roman Enperor, as the beardlessness represents the divinity of the Emperor.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: NicholasMyra on March 29, 2018, 03:31:16 AM
Christ represented as a Roman solider:

(https://2guysreadinggibbon.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/early-christian-mosaic.jpg?w=500)

This gives more credence to the idea the beardless Christ was supposed to equivocate Christ to the Roman Enperor, as the beardlessness represents the divinity of the Emperor.
beardlessness represented divinity in general
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on March 29, 2018, 09:03:06 AM
Mosaic of Christ in Santa Prassede Rome:

Pope Paschal was alive in this mosaic as well! as referenced by the square halo.

Pretty!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 29, 2018, 10:50:10 PM
Christ represented as a Roman solider:

(https://2guysreadinggibbon.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/early-christian-mosaic.jpg?w=500)

This gives more credence to the idea the beardless Christ was supposed to equivocate Christ to the Roman Enperor, as the beardlessness represents the divinity of the Emperor.
beardlessness represented divinity in general
Wasn't one of the issues with the Arians how they portrayed Christ beardless?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 29, 2018, 10:50:50 PM
Mosaic of Christ in Santa Prassede Rome:

Pope Paschal was alive in this mosaic as well! as referenced by the square halo.

Pretty!
Isn't it?  :)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 29, 2018, 11:09:30 PM
Hinton St. Mary mosaic from Roman-Britain

(https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/media/5637782/hinton_st_mary_roundel_ctrustees_of_the_british_museum1-20171103165017357_web.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&width=818&height=500&rnd=131547054480000000)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 29, 2018, 11:10:08 PM
Here's the full mosaic:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Mosaic2_-_plw.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on March 30, 2018, 12:53:42 AM
Christ represented as a Roman solider:

(https://2guysreadinggibbon.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/early-christian-mosaic.jpg?w=500)

This gives more credence to the idea the beardless Christ was supposed to equivocate Christ to the Roman Enperor, as the beardlessness represents the divinity of the Emperor.
beardlessness represented divinity in general

The way I always heard it was that beardlessness meant He was alive and ever-young.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 31, 2018, 04:52:46 PM
Christ surrounded by angels in Santa Prassede:

(http://www.turismoroma.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/cappella-di-S.Zenone.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on March 31, 2018, 04:56:16 PM
Christ as the Lamb of God above bishop Theodora!  :P

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/65/9f/9b659faedcbef515d263ea8d787b928d.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on April 01, 2018, 04:01:57 PM
Christ as the Lamb of God above bishop Theodora!  :P


Bishop Theodora  :o
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on April 01, 2018, 06:41:04 PM
Christ as the Lamb of God above bishop Theodora!  :P


Bishop Theodora  :o

It’s a reference to a women’s ordination video. In it, they claim that the headscarf she’s wearing implies an episcopal rank. It’s a good laugh!

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTs3rhaZKw
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on April 07, 2018, 10:06:32 PM
CHRIST IS RISEN!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/72/a1/9172a147fb96925ec9a61402bac63e9a.jpg)

Mosaic from Rome.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on April 08, 2018, 03:46:13 PM
(http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-NN656_jesus1_EV_20110416100005.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on April 08, 2018, 03:52:29 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/0a/0b/de0a0baa0f19a9966c61a8102629f088.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on April 08, 2018, 04:32:04 PM
(http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-NN656_jesus1_EV_20110416100005.jpg)
This looks like it has a bit of Byzantine influence in it. Either way I like it.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on April 08, 2018, 05:11:00 PM
Really interesting, thanks! I always wondered why so much non-liturgical Anglo-Saxon (and Old Irish) didn't lead to a translation of the liturgy from Latin. Did the bishops/Pope block it or did the people not want it?
Apparently much of the "Rituale ecclesiæ Dunelmensis", a pre-schism missal from Durham, is also translated into Anglo-Saxon, but it's impossible to know which language the prayers were read in. My guess is that even if the English of the time was being used liturgically, the Norman Invasion put an end to that sort of thing.

Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on April 08, 2018, 05:20:05 PM
Really interesting, thanks! I always wondered why so much non-liturgical Anglo-Saxon (and Old Irish) didn't lead to a translation of the liturgy from Latin. Did the bishops/Pope block it or did the people not want it?
Apparently much of the "Rituale ecclesiæ Dunelmensis", a pre-schism missal from Durham, is also translated into Anglo-Saxon, but it's impossible to know which language the prayers were read in. My guess is that even if the English of the time was being used liturgically, the Norman Invasion put an end to that sort of thing.

Huh. Thanks.

Yeah, I'm sure the Norman Conquest had a huge influence.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on April 11, 2018, 11:26:10 AM
Fresco of Saint Benedict and the Crow

(http://communio.stblogs.org/St%20Benedict%20cave%20fresco.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on April 11, 2018, 12:45:33 PM
Fresco of Saint Benedict and the Crow

(http://communio.stblogs.org/St%20Benedict%20cave%20fresco.jpg)
Interesing one of the monks has a beard. As I recall one criticism from Rome during the Great Schism was the monks from the east having long hair and beards.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on April 12, 2018, 04:52:24 PM
King David playing on the Harp from the Westminster Psalter, 1200

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gDl4LU_j8Bk/VcNDKqbXFXI/AAAAAAAADzA/RWqj7otKI44/s1600/k90071-86%2B%25281%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on April 12, 2018, 05:09:09 PM
The Virgin Mary punching Satan in the face from the 13th century: "The DeBrailes of hours"

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/83/c3/6c/83c36c2b2d5421a5b8bec5d64417f47a.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 01, 2018, 02:31:38 PM
Mosaic of Pope St. Linus:

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus#/media/File%3A2-St.Linus.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 01, 2018, 08:25:25 PM
Fixed!

(https://alchetron.com/cdn/pope-linus-7941b159-1698-4108-8779-f1700dc91a7-resize-750.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 04, 2018, 08:48:28 PM
(https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/1410355967_800px-Fra_Angelico_052.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on May 04, 2018, 09:04:03 PM
Isn't this Thomas Aquinas?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 04, 2018, 09:16:55 PM
Isn't this Thomas Aquinas?
I have no idea how painted this, I just thought it look nice.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 04, 2018, 09:20:05 PM
I'm rocking the same hair style atm, though not by choice...
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on May 04, 2018, 09:34:41 PM
Isn't this Thomas Aquinas?

Dominic, I think.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 04, 2018, 11:10:39 PM
I'm rocking the same hair style atm, though not by choice...
Is your tonsure as perfect as the one shown mosaic?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 04, 2018, 11:11:34 PM
Isn't this Thomas Aquinas?
I have no idea how painted this, I just thought it look nice.
When you don't take the time to edit.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 04, 2018, 11:24:09 PM
I'm rocking the same hair style atm, though not by choice...
Is your tonsure as perfect as the one shown mosaic?

Starting to get a little shaggy.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/m/mymD-7AYL4dkQMn_BzIIvOg/s-l225.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on May 05, 2018, 04:56:36 AM
What's the history behind tonsure? Our practice with long hair and all that is quite the opposite and I wonder which was the original practice.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on May 05, 2018, 06:53:59 AM
We used to tonsure monks similarly. You can see it in icons of, eg, St Gregory Palamas.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on May 05, 2018, 05:17:40 PM
We used to tonsure monks similarly. You can see it in icons of, eg, St Gregory Palamas.

Why and when did it change?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 05, 2018, 06:36:47 PM
We used to tonsure monks similarly. You can see it in icons of, eg, St Gregory Palamas.

Why and when did it change?
The practice in the east was usually always the same. the tonsure shown above is Roman, though their was the Celtic tonsure that died out after the synod of Whitby.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 05, 2018, 06:37:50 PM
I'm rocking the same hair style atm, though not by choice...
Is your tonsure as perfect as the one shown mosaic?

Starting to get a little shaggy.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/m/mymD-7AYL4dkQMn_BzIIvOg/s-l225.jpg)
I'm sure it suits you.  8)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on May 05, 2018, 07:01:49 PM
though their was the Celtic tonsure that died out after the synod of Whitby.

Which, as much as I hate to say this as a lover of all things Irish, was kind of stupid looking imo.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3576/3794180717_f9bfa6e03d_z.jpg?zz=1)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Asteriktos on May 05, 2018, 07:11:17 PM
I bet the monks didn't cut their hair as a sign of "not caring about things of the world," and some guy had a major league skullet, and everyone was impressed like, "wow that guy must be REALLY humble to be willing to walk around looking like that" and it became an emperors/clothes thing where people started imitating it and everyone was afraid to say anything to each other about how stupid it looked, but then finally byzantine humanists + muslim immigrants reintroduced reason and common sense to Europe and everyone was like "lol no let's not do that anymore" and then it ended.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Iconodule on May 05, 2018, 07:23:05 PM
We used to tonsure monks similarly. You can see it in icons of, eg, St Gregory Palamas.

Why and when did it change?
The practice in the east was usually always the same

On the contrary the eastern tonsure was much like the western one. It was called “papalethra”. Apprently St Theodore of Tarsus had his whole head shaved. It fell into disuse so now there is just a vestigial clipping of a few hairs.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on May 05, 2018, 07:46:15 PM
What's the history behind tonsure? Our practice with long hair and all that is quite the opposite and I wonder which was the original practice.
At least in the West, only clerics were tonsured monks.  The tonsure left the hair in the shape of a crown, symbolizing martyrdom. 

Its current practice in the West is now rare, but it's still usually restricted to cleric monks and the whole head is shaved.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on May 05, 2018, 09:23:58 PM
I bet the monks didn't cut their hair as a sign of "not caring about things of the world," and some guy had a major league skullet, and everyone was impressed like, "wow that guy must be REALLY humble to be willing to walk around looking like that" and it became an emperors/clothes thing where people started imitating it and everyone was afraid to say anything to each other about how stupid it looked, but then finally byzantine humanists + muslim immigrants reintroduced reason and common sense to Europe and everyone was like "lol no let's not do that anymore" and then it ended.

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/092/747/cdc.gif)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on May 05, 2018, 09:32:42 PM
We used to tonsure monks similarly. You can see it in icons of, eg, St Gregory Palamas.

Why and when did it change?
The practice in the east was usually always the same

On the contrary the eastern tonsure was much like the western one. It was called “papalethra”. Apprently St Theodore of Tarsus had his whole head shaved. It fell into disuse so now there is just a vestigial clipping of a few hairs.

Yeah, it's interesting. You find all kinds of arguments about the Apostles supposedly shaving their heads (St. Theodore attributed his to Peter and Paul and later writers added James to the mix. The Irish could only trace their tonsure to John, heh). And then there's the line in the Canons of Quinisext about clerics having to regrow their hair as a punishment.

St. Nicodemus actually advocates in the Rudder for the return of the papalethra as being a more ancient practice (Latin Captivity arguments may now commence). http://gavaisky.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-hairy-business.html
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on May 05, 2018, 10:28:58 PM
I was going to post the same blog, but Volnutt beat me to it.  ;D
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on May 08, 2018, 10:22:46 PM
(http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-NN656_jesus1_EV_20110416100005.jpg)

Is it just me, or does Jesus look kind of like Rowan Atkinson?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on May 08, 2018, 10:56:58 PM
though their was the Celtic tonsure that died out after the synod of Whitby.

Which, as much as I hate to say this as a lover of all things Irish, was kind of stupid looking imo.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3576/3794180717_f9bfa6e03d_z.jpg?zz=1)

Actually, we don't really know for certain what exactly the Irish tonsure looked like.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on May 08, 2018, 11:15:49 PM
I'd say it's the best guess. A possible contemporary depiction from Bohemia:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Stone_sculpture_of_celtic_hero2.jpg/800px-Stone_sculpture_of_celtic_hero2.jpg)


The alternate possibility would be that all the hair was shaved to the ears, which would still look of dumb imo. But OTOH I can't really judge too harshly.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: juliogb on May 09, 2018, 07:37:55 AM
Church of the Transfiguration in Mount Tabor, Israel. Quite beautiful church, the architecture resembles depictions of Turmanin church and the ruins of the Qalb Loze church, both in Idlib, Syria.

(https://christianrenaissancemovement.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/church_of_transfiguration_-_mosaic_7723782958.jpg?w=820)

(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/mounttabor-090723032546-phpapp01/95/mount-tabor-8-728.jpg?cb=1248319607)

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a8/77/09/a87709b6c87459fab1c0b4820736072d.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 02, 2018, 06:33:45 PM
Our Lady of Glastonbury

(https://johnpmcginty.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/wpid-2010-08-24_20-00-10_849.jpg)

From Our Lady Glastonbury Roman Catholic Abbey in Maine
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 02, 2018, 06:39:18 PM
7th century Anglo Saxon Cross found in the grave of a teenage girl

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/a7/21/d1a72140a7e7993d8f50e6b20727661c.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 02, 2018, 07:24:14 PM
Irish crucifix of Athlone:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/42/5a/c6/425ac66085c3e4991df8c891f2be2d05.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on June 02, 2018, 07:27:35 PM
I like it. Very stylized.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 08, 2018, 10:26:13 PM
I went and saw this french icon from 1325 today:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Virgin_and_Child%2C_Lippo_Memmi%2C_Siena%2C_c._1325-1330_-_Nelson-Atkins_Museum_of_Art_-_DSC08399.JPG/576px-Virgin_and_Child%2C_Lippo_Memmi%2C_Siena%2C_c._1325-1330_-_Nelson-Atkins_Museum_of_Art_-_DSC08399.JPG)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 10, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
I am new and do not know how to properly so here are links to them!

romanesque Jesus christ
https://kamis-imagesofjesus.weebly.com/jesus-in-romanesque-art.html

orthodox hand of God
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hand_gottes.jpg

medieval crucifix
http://www.medievalhistories.com/wp-content/uploads/WEB-Cathedral-in-Naumburg-crypt-crucifix.jpg
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 10, 2018, 03:07:17 PM
more...

christ descent into hell
 http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/page/21/77488

russian icon of Jesus Christ
http://www.danielbibb.com/content/exhibits/detail4.php?itemID=50030

russian icon of Theotokos

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/345932815097209789
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 10, 2018, 05:37:28 PM
Hi, you just type in (without spaces or quotation marks) "[ img ] image link goes here [ /img ]""

and you can readjust the size of the image by putting in height= and width= as separate words in the first box.

For example,

[ img ] http://www.asianews.it/files/img/size3/RUSSIA_(F)_0204_-_Kirill.jpg [ /img ]

comes out like this:

(http://www.asianews.it/files/img/size3/RUSSIA_(F)_0204_-_Kirill.jpg)

and this:

[ img  height=330 width=220 ] http://www.asianews.it/files/img/size3/RUSSIA_(F)_0204_-_Kirill.jpg [ /img ]

comes out like this:

(http://www.asianews.it/files/img/size3/RUSSIA_(F)_0204_-_Kirill.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 12, 2018, 01:29:14 PM
please answer truthfully what did everyone think of my contributions! (the links)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 12, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
please answer truthfully what did everyone think of my contributions! (the links)
I liked them. I'm a sucker for the "Old-Rite" style of Russian icons.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: biro on June 12, 2018, 02:30:42 PM
I liked the icons.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on June 12, 2018, 02:42:55 PM
please answer truthfully what did everyone think of my contributions! (the links)

If you wish to retain your sanity on internets (and in life in general) I'd suggest stop caring about what people think about you and post anyway.

That said, the icons were quite nice.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 12, 2018, 04:03:22 PM
please answer truthfully what did everyone think of my contributions! (the links)

If you wish to retain your sanity on internets (and in life in general) I'd suggest stop caring about what people think about you and post anyway.

That said, the icons were quite nice.

Should've not said anything to make your point.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on June 12, 2018, 05:00:50 PM
^Just saying something I wish someone had told me when I was younger.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Sharbel on June 12, 2018, 06:46:22 PM
Well, when I heard from my priest that he has to deal with depressed teenagers because they didn't get at least 100 "likes" at the end of the day, it's probably a good advice, depending on the age of the poster.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 12, 2018, 07:07:57 PM
Well, when I heard from my priest that he has to deal with depressed teenagers because they didn't get at least 100 "likes" at the end of the day, it's probably a good advice, depending on the age of the poster.

Especially as well if English is not his first language (which, based on his jurisdiction, seems to be the case).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on June 13, 2018, 11:05:29 AM
^Considering how many mistakes I make that should be fairly obvious.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 13, 2018, 01:31:46 PM
I was talking about Orthodox Slav.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 14, 2018, 12:23:20 PM
well, thanks for the replies and thanks for the interesting comment alpo! and I can speak English fluently by the way!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 16, 2018, 10:56:04 AM
my pictures that were in links previously  ;)

(https://kamis-imagesofjesus.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/4/7/29477463/414247.jpg?369)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CD68ePdUkAEsiFj.jpg)

(http://www.medievalhistories.com/wp-content/uploads/WEB-Cathedral-in-Naumburg-crypt-crucifix.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Hand_gottes.jpg)

(http://www.danielbibb.com/images/collection/50030-Lg.jpg)

(http://icons-dullaert.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/MG9326_The-Mother-of-God-of-the-Passion.jpg)

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 17, 2018, 07:22:32 AM
all saints of Britain:
(http://www.pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/102326/232616.p.jpg?mtime=1459221157)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 23, 2018, 06:28:34 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

(https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/feawa-825x510.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: brlon on June 23, 2018, 07:54:20 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

Saint Catherine of Alexandria (left), Saint Lawrence the Deacon (right).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: hecma925 on June 23, 2018, 08:29:18 PM
It's a deeisis setup, where Christ in the center is flanked by supplicating saints; in this case the Mother of God and John the Forerunner. 
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: HaydenTE on June 23, 2018, 10:46:44 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

(https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/feawa-825x510.jpg)

Is that Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston? I’ve been there before, but didn’t notice the icons on the altar.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 09:50:52 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: hecma925 on June 24, 2018, 10:05:33 AM
What's with the Hebrew?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 10:22:45 AM
why is there Hebrew :o surely this is not a synagogue this is not a Jewish place of worship! whats Hebrew doing there!?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on June 24, 2018, 10:34:26 AM
why is there Hebrew :o surely this is not a synagogue this is not a Jewish place of worship! whats Hebrew doing there!?

Hebrew is also one of the languages of the Orthodox Church:

Paschal troparion in Hebrew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIMw4cRJ8X8)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 10:50:10 AM
why is there Hebrew :o surely this is not a synagogue this is not a Jewish place of worship! whats Hebrew doing there!?

Hebrew is also one of the languages of the Orthodox Church:

Paschal troparion in Hebrew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIMw4cRJ8X8)

yes but this is an Anglican church!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 24, 2018, 12:03:45 PM
why is there Hebrew :o surely this is not a synagogue this is not a Jewish place of worship! whats Hebrew doing there!?

Hebrew is also one of the languages of the Orthodox Church:

Paschal troparion in Hebrew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIMw4cRJ8X8)
yes but this is an Anglican church!
The Aleph symbolizes truth, as does the Tav. Though since it's the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, it means beginning and end. It's related to the "Alpha and Omega" symbol in Greek.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 12:20:07 PM
why is there Hebrew :o surely this is not a synagogue this is not a Jewish place of worship! whats Hebrew doing there!?

Hebrew is also one of the languages of the Orthodox Church:

Paschal troparion in Hebrew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIMw4cRJ8X8)
yes but this is an Anglican church!
The Aleph symbolizes truth, as does the Tav. Though since it's the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, it means beginning and end. It's related to the "Alpha and Omega" symbol in Greek.

thanks i get it now
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 24, 2018, 01:29:11 PM
why is there Hebrew :o surely this is not a synagogue this is not a Jewish place of worship! whats Hebrew doing there!?
I suspect the holy prophets didn't talk to God in Slavonic.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 24, 2018, 01:31:41 PM
Hebrew is also one of the languages of the Orthodox Church:

Paschal troparion in Hebrew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIMw4cRJ8X8)
I wonder who uses it. I mean, there are plenty of Orthodox Christians from Palestine and abroad in Israel, but I wouldn't expect such a fast substitution of their mother languages so that their liturgical language would change from Greek, Slavonic or Georgian to Hebrew in 70 years at most. Or there is active mission, but I never heard of such.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on June 24, 2018, 01:53:53 PM
Hebrew is also one of the languages of the Orthodox Church:

Paschal troparion in Hebrew (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIMw4cRJ8X8)
I wonder who uses it. I mean, there are plenty of Orthodox Christians from Palestine and abroad in Israel, but I wouldn't expect such a fast substitution of their mother languages so that their liturgical language would change from Greek, Slavonic or Georgian to Hebrew in 70 years at most. Or there is active mission, but I never heard of such.

I know there is a community of Russian Jews that are Orthodox Christians in Haifa.  I suppose it's unique parish that uses Hebrew as a liturgical language. A friend of mine, an only priest in the Polish Church that knows Hebrew, got from them (after months of exchanging e-mails) Horologion in Hebrew.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 24, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
I know there is a community of Russian Jews that are Orthodox Christians in Haifa.  I suppose it's unique parish that uses Hebrew as a liturgical language. A friend of mine, an only priest in the Polish Church that knows Hebrew, got from them (after months of exchanging e-mails) Horologion in Hebrew.
Wow, really interesting! Also, there's a PAOC priest in Rio who knows Hebrew too.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 02:11:56 PM
Russian Jews that are orthodox Christians now thats something new!? there usually either follow Judaism or are atheists.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on June 24, 2018, 02:51:38 PM
Russian Jews that are orthodox Christians now thats something new!? there usually either follow Judaism or are atheists.
I know in person such 2 brothers.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 03:24:32 PM
Also - I know there are a lot of criticisms for other reasons - the Cathedral of Christ the Savior's infamous painting of the Trinity has Hebrew as well.

(http://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cathedral-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 03:28:37 PM
Also - I know there are a lot of criticisms for other reasons - the Cathedral of Christ the Savior's infamous painting of the Trinity has Hebrew as well.

(http://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cathedral-5.jpg)

i cant even look at it without cringing not because of the Hebrew  but just because of the old man God the father and the way it looks so unorthodox OH MY WHAT WAS THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH THINKING WHEN THEY MADE THIS!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 24, 2018, 04:19:20 PM
Also - I know there are a lot of criticisms for other reasons - the Cathedral of Christ the Savior's infamous painting of the Trinity has Hebrew as well.

(http://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/cathedral-5.jpg)

i cant even look at it without cringing not because of the Hebrew  but just because of the old man God the father and the way it looks so unorthodox OH MY WHAT WAS THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH THINKING WHEN THEY MADE THIS!

They were thinking they should embrace the captivity of the Russian Church.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 04:24:50 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

(https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/feawa-825x510.jpg)

btw in this picture, Jesus' feet are crossed on the crucifix and this is the heresy of Triclavianism!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 24, 2018, 04:40:52 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

(https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/feawa-825x510.jpg)
this is the heresy of Triclavianism!

I don't think that was ever condemned by the Orthodox church.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 04:43:49 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

btw in this picture, Jesus' feet are crossed on the crucifix and this is the heresy of Triclavianism!

I find that way less imperfect than Russia's main Cathedral.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 04:48:35 PM
They were thinking they should embrace the captivity of the Russian Church.

Who is the Russian Orthodox Church held captive by? Communism is dead... that is, mostly dead. There's a huge difference between being completely dead and mostly dead.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 24, 2018, 04:57:23 PM
This is from an Anglican Ordinariate church, but it really stuck out to me - aside from the Virgin Mary looking to the right towards Jesus and not towards the viewer. I also don't recognize the two Saints on the left and right of the altar.

(https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/feawa-825x510.jpg)
this is the heresy of Triclavianism!

I don't think that was ever condemned by the Orthodox church.

even though it was not necessarily condemned by any of the Eastern Orthodox churches during the time of the great schism when The roman catholic church was brewing up its horrible heresies they started to depicted the crucifixion with Jesus Christ's feet crossed
this act even though it is a minor one cause disruption in the church cause you have the orthodox looking at the Catholic crosses and going hey that looks different the feet are crossed in our crosses his feet are apart. I can assure you if you do some research you will find that before the schism both Rome and the east depicted Christ's feet apart!!!  >:(
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 24, 2018, 06:31:41 PM
They were thinking they should embrace the captivity of the Russian Church.

Who is the Russian Orthodox Church held captive by? Communism is dead... that is, mostly dead. There's a huge difference between being completely dead and mostly dead.
Jackson is referring to the infiltration of Latin ideals and patterns in the Russian Orthodox Church, which is often called the "Western Captivity".
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 06:42:05 PM
Ah. That period.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Asteriktos on June 24, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
Ah. That period.

I know. I can't stand British English either. Not that I blame RaphaCam of course.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 07:15:07 PM
I know, right? Why is it outside the quotation marks?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 24, 2018, 07:25:20 PM
Ah. That period.

I know. I can't stand British English either. Not that I blame RaphaCam of course.
I don't get it, do I sound British?  :police:  (Scotland Yahd emoticon)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 24, 2018, 07:39:18 PM
He's using a play on the word "period."
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 01:18:16 PM
This painting is a mix mash of iconographic themes, so I don't know if it could be completely regarded as an "icon", but

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56829c58a2bab87f93ee4d6a/t/5aa16f66c83025fedf6d6080/1521123379919/Last+Judgement+Fresco.jpg)

This is from the 13th century Spain.
It's the awaiting of Final Judgement with Christ Enthroned in Majesty after the people have risen from the tombs, with many under the protection of the Theotokos.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 25, 2018, 01:38:29 PM
It seems this painting is actually from Spoleto, Italy, and there's some early neo-Byzantinism there. I googled it since I found this influence strange for late medieval Spain (although it might even be possible since the Visigothic Kingdom was frequently just Byzantine cosplay, so maybe some influence might have endured, who knows).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 25, 2018, 01:40:06 PM
all saints of Britain:

(http://www.pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/102326/232616.p.jpg?mtime=1459221157)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 01:40:41 PM
Sorry, I'm an idiot.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 25, 2018, 01:50:48 PM
Sorry, I'm an idiot.
Why would you say that? Don't be so tough with yourself...
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 25, 2018, 02:10:23 PM
 I like the Celtic cross in the middle of the all saints of Britain icon I posted!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 02:13:06 PM
Sorry, I'm an idiot.
Why would you say that? Don't be so tough with yourself...

Because the source of where I took the picture from said Spoleto, Italy, and I read the first two letters and thought "Ah, SPAIN!"
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 02:13:52 PM
I like the Celtic cross in the middle of the all saints of Britain icon I posted!

The Crucifix that I wear is a Celtic Cross. Although I bought a new Russian Cross that I will wear when it arrives because the Celtic Cross is rusting.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on June 25, 2018, 02:22:30 PM
Sorry, I'm an idiot.
Why would you say that? Don't be so tough with yourself...

Because the source of where I took the picture from said Spoleto, Italy, and I read the first two letters and thought "Ah, SPAIN!"
I got it pretty quick because it's the name of a delicious pasta fast-food chain.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 04:24:41 PM
The annunciation by Rinaldo de Taranto

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/f7/70/e9f7703d8bb107f3694e922c9db814c3.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 04:31:24 PM
Fresco of the Life of Saint Catherine of Alexandria by the same artist
(Bottom left is obviously Theotokos and Child, not sure who the bottom right and center are
- bottom right seems to be Mary Magdalene, and maybe Pope Linus due to the red?)

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/4/3120/2905030924_fd15decd3c_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on June 25, 2018, 05:00:22 PM
Geros crucifix

(http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/thumb/e/ec/Gerokreuz_full_20050903.jpg/200px-Gerokreuz_full_20050903.jpg)

it's from Germany it's from around 965–970 its based on Byzantine crosses!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on June 25, 2018, 05:48:47 PM
I like it.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on June 25, 2018, 08:52:48 PM
Geros crucifix

(http://static.newworldencyclopedia.org/thumb/e/ec/Gerokreuz_full_20050903.jpg/200px-Gerokreuz_full_20050903.jpg)

it's from Germany it's from around 965–970 its based on Byzantine crosses!

One of the few crucifixes I'd like to see in an Orthodox church.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 09, 2018, 05:54:50 PM
Last Supper, from 13th Century French Manuscript

(https://s8.postimg.cc/gl82nvk8l/last_supper.png)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 09, 2018, 07:35:19 PM
From the Benedictional of Saint Aethelwold of Winchester (this is actually pre-schism by 100 years)

The Ascension

(https://illumination.missouri.edu/s14/images/ascent.main_image.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 09, 2018, 07:42:48 PM
From the same Benedictional:

Baptism of Christ

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Meister_des_Benedictionale_des_Heiligen_Aethelwold_001.jpg)

Saint Swithun, Patron Saint of Winchester Cathedral

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/St_Swithun%2C_Benedictional_of_%C3%86thelwold%2C_London%2C_BL%2C_Ms_Add._19598%2C_Fol_90V.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 09, 2018, 07:45:14 PM
Despite being pre-schism, I don't know if you could consider them "icons" just from how visually intense they are, despite how pretty they are.

Still found worth posting though.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: RaphaCam on July 09, 2018, 07:52:25 PM
Gothic Ecce Homo painted in the mid-XVI century in Portugal, oil on wood

(https://scontent.fsdu5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36872544_1687753327944687_5455053682229903360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=89cd29a1d8f0dd269724c91e0bae4a11&oe=5BE0BE0B)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 09, 2018, 08:07:39 PM
"Like a sheep He was led to slaughter..."
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 09, 2018, 09:44:35 PM
From the same Benedictional:

Baptism of Christ

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Meister_des_Benedictionale_des_Heiligen_Aethelwold_001.jpg)

Saint Swithun, Patron Saint of Winchester Cathedral

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/St_Swithun%2C_Benedictional_of_%C3%86thelwold%2C_London%2C_BL%2C_Ms_Add._19598%2C_Fol_90V.jpg)

It's good to know that if a British Orthodox church were to exist this artstyle would be acceptable.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on July 10, 2018, 06:51:19 AM
Gothic Ecce Homo painted in the mid-XVI century in Portugal, oil on wood

(https://scontent.fsdu5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36872544_1687753327944687_5455053682229903360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=89cd29a1d8f0dd269724c91e0bae4a11&oe=5BE0BE0B)
Beautiful. Showing Christ as God and Man at the same time. Realist and mysterious at the same time.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on July 10, 2018, 08:22:50 AM
Gothic Ecce Homo painted in the mid-XVI century in Portugal, oil on wood

(https://scontent.fsdu5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36872544_1687753327944687_5455053682229903360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=89cd29a1d8f0dd269724c91e0bae4a11&oe=5BE0BE0B)

I love the little detail that crown of thorns poke threw his hood!  It is so satisfying to see for some reason  :D
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: hecma925 on July 10, 2018, 08:42:51 AM
From the same Benedictional:

It's good to know that if a British Orthodox church were to exist this artstyle would be acceptable.

What makes it acceptable?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 10, 2018, 11:30:45 AM
From the same Benedictional:

It's good to know that if a British Orthodox church were to exist this artstyle would be acceptable.

What makes it acceptable?

It predates the Great Schism by 100 years.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 11, 2018, 06:23:21 PM
7th century Anglo Saxon Cross.

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/2e/64/78/2e647892695cbdaf5c14125c9dcaebc7--homemade-crafts-satan.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 21, 2018, 04:58:09 PM
Mosaic of the Ark of the Convenant, 805 AD

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germigny_Des_Pres_2007_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 21, 2018, 06:38:25 PM
Mosaic of the Ark of the Convenant, 805 AD

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Germigny_Des_Pres_2007_01.jpg)

Where's this mosaic from?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 21, 2018, 06:52:25 PM
The oratory at Germigny-des-Prés.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 21, 2018, 07:41:48 PM
The oratory at Germigny-des-Prés.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 21, 2018, 07:43:38 PM
Christ in Majesty from the church of Berze-la-ville

(https://arsartisticadventureofmankind.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/33-fresco-in-the-church-in-berzc3a9-la-ville.png?w=863&h=710)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 21, 2018, 09:36:39 PM
beautiful.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on July 26, 2018, 07:05:46 PM
Christ enthroned from the 8th century The Gospel of St. Gall

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/01/95/91/01959192888cdd5f594efb53637be88d--irish-art-the-irish.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on August 24, 2018, 11:24:45 AM
(https://monksmusingsdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/img_3748.jpeg?w=768)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on August 24, 2018, 02:20:55 PM
Having a hard time interpreting this one. Is the kneeling man with the staff supposed to be the one who offered Him gall and vinegar or is he a depiction of the patron who commissioned the sculpture? I'm guessing by the crozier in his hand, that the pointing man is not St. John the Baptist (or is he?).
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: brlon on August 24, 2018, 02:50:13 PM
Surely that's six monks.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on August 24, 2018, 02:58:59 PM
Surely that's six monks.
Agreed. It looks like six benedictine monks.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on August 24, 2018, 03:27:40 PM
Ah, ok.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on September 07, 2018, 11:28:12 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c0/e9/d2/c0e9d2f85db7d801384161407ab273f4--catholic-crafts-catholic-art.jpg)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: hecma925 on September 21, 2018, 10:26:30 AM
(http://images.oca.org/icons/sm/september/0920.eustace.jpg)

Greatmartyr Eustathius (Eustace)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 21, 2018, 10:41:01 AM
And that's how God created Jägermeister!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Jackson02 on September 21, 2018, 11:23:58 AM
(http://images.oca.org/icons/sm/september/0920.eustace.jpg)

Greatmartyr Eustathius (Eustace)

When was this made?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 28, 2018, 05:23:51 PM
(http://www.psfiles.gr/photos/11046_337_1080_2000.jpg)

Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 28, 2018, 05:29:50 PM
What do the letter's spell out?
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on September 28, 2018, 05:34:04 PM
What do the letter's spell out?

For me it's IHS but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 28, 2018, 06:02:58 PM
What do the letter's spell out?

For me it's IHS but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that was my thought, too. But it's written very strangely written if so.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: hecma925 on September 28, 2018, 06:25:45 PM
What do the letter's spell out?

For me it's IHS but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that was my thought, too. But it's written very strangely written if so.

The Cross throws the lettering off.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 28, 2018, 06:35:50 PM
What do the letter's spell out?

For me it's IHS but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that was my thought, too. But it's written very strangely written if so.

The Cross throws the lettering off.

Yeah.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Orthodox_Slav on September 29, 2018, 05:25:47 AM
(http://www.psfiles.gr/photos/11046_337_1080_2000.jpg)

We're and when is it from
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on September 29, 2018, 10:49:11 AM
What do the letter's spell out?

For me it's IHS but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that was my thought, too. But it's written very strangely written if so.

The Cross throws the lettering off.

Too bad they didn’t opt for the JW torture stake.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Caelestinus on September 29, 2018, 03:32:08 PM
(http://www.psfiles.gr/photos/11046_337_1080_2000.jpg)

Beautiful!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Volnutt on September 29, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
What do the letter's spell out?

For me it's IHS but I'm not sure.

Yeah, that was my thought, too. But it's written very strangely written if so.

The Cross throws the lettering off.

Too bad they didn’t opt for the JW torture stake.

Why would anybody want to torture steak? (jokes that work in audio, but not text)
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: juliogb on October 01, 2018, 08:35:35 AM
(http://www.amliebstenreisen.at/bilder/2014/08/Kirche-am-steinhof.jpg)

Altar of Kirche am Steinhof, in Viena. I really liked this church, it is build in some sort of art decó style with some vaguely byzantine elements.
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Dominika on October 01, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
^^ great. And Christ is in the centre!
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on October 01, 2018, 09:57:14 AM
Frescoes from 15th century:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Hattula_Pyhän_Ristin_kirkko_4.jpg)

Source with a few more pics:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_Church%2C_Hattula?wprov=sfla1
Title: Re: Pictures of Western Icons?
Post by: Alpo on October 01, 2018, 10:11:27 AM
To add some context, here's a reconstruction of a 15th century mass from Sweden. At that time Finland used to be part of Sweden so assumingly RC liturgy in Finland was also something like that.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fIODLdz6vEc