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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 05:35:16 AM

Title: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 05:35:16 AM
My name is Anthony. I was born in Taiwan from a non Christian family. My parent and my younger sister are not Christian.
I am currently studying dentistry in Madrid, Spain.

Before I begin my degree in Madrid I had been living in Untied States and Canada for many years.

When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.
However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain. 

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

However, I don't know why, recently I begin to fear of death and final judgement. Few months ago, I watch a lot of youtube videos from the traditional Latin Rite Catholic, like SSPX and  sedevacantist videos. I begin to fear of final damnation. Recently some of my friends who are Spanish who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy most of them reverted back to Catholicism. Some joint the SSPX chapel.

According to Roman Catholic church, a Roman Catholic become Orthodox Christian is schism and can result of final damnation. So few weeks ago, I contacted the SSPX priest in Madrid, and I had been asked to do the professional of faith, including accepted all the Dogma of council of Trent and Vatican I like papal infallibility,indulgence....They ask me to sign the paper and there were two witness there.

However, after I returned to Roman Catholic church it did not reduce my fear of final damnation. Even made my situation worst. I am more stressful and anxious. I find out there is a great significant difference between Roman Catholic dogma and Eastern Orthodoxy. However, people keep telling me there are no difference between Orthodox theology and Catholic theology.

I plan to follow all the Eastern Theology and spirituality but attending the SSPX chapel in order to been in communion with Rome. But I think it is kind of crazy.

My chrismation sponsor back in Canada suggested me to find an Orthodox priest to work on my problem. Otherwise he said I might become atheist one day. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 05:44:43 AM
Sorry English is not my first language so there are lot of grammar mistake.

I know best idea is to find an Orthodox priest to work on my problem. However I am being very anxious.

I know both Catholic and Orthodox church teach that private revelation and apparition are not require to believe.

However, I am curious the apparition like Fatima and  Lourdes prove RC might be the true church?

If RC is wrong church how can we explain the revelation by certain Catholic Saints like St Faustina, Padre Pio...

All the RC private revelation about Hell sacred me a lot.... I don't want to be burn in hell.

According to some traditional Catholic priest only 1% of world population can be saved and go to heaven. Most of people are damned.   
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 06:15:41 AM
According to SSPX priest I should only attend the traditional Latin Mass. If there are no Traditional Latin Mass stay home to read the Sunday Mass missal.
But I think it is impossible for me. After 2-3 years I am moving back to Taiwan once I finish my degree. There is only the traditional Latin Mass once a month in Taiwan.

And I think some of the SSPX positions are too extreme.


I have many doubts about some Catholic dogma, especially Papacy. However, fear of final damnation I forced  my self to accept Papal supremacy and papal infallibility.

However, are those dogma really what apostles teach?

During the Council of Florence Pope Eugene IV only people in communion with Rome can be saved. However, there are so many post-schism Saints from the Orthodox Church like St. Seraphim of Sarvo. Some of the Orthodox saints were against the union with Rome like St. Mark of Ephesus.

Some of the Orthodox Saints are former Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic St. Alexis Toth, St. Maxim Sandovich, St. Procopius of Ustyug and St. Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague .

According to Rome refused to submitted to Pope is a mortal sin. Then why there are so many post-schism Orthodox Saints and Orthodox Saints who are former Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 05, 2017, 06:42:15 AM
Quote
However, I don't know why, recently I begin to fear of death and final judgement. Few months ago, I watch a lot of youtube videos from the traditional Latin Rite Catholic, like SSPX and  sedevacantist videos. I begin to fear of final damnation. Recently some of my friends who are Spanish who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy most of them reverted back to Catholicism. Some joint the SSPX chapel

You have to be extremely careful when you watch videos with sedevacantist and sspx, they are people filled with diabolical prelest, and can commune these energies to you just by listening to them.

I have personally experienced demonic attacks by watching vaticancatholic on youtube.

You should talk to you orthodox priest and ask for advice on whhat you need to do.
Quote
I had been asked to do the professional of faith, including accepted all the Dogma of council of Trent and Vatican I like papal infallibility,indulgence
If you enter in communion with these (mistaken folks) you will never have heavenly peace, but gnash your teeth and live in fear.


--Edited to take polemic level from "extreme" to "less extreme." Per the forum rules, only light polemics are allowed in this forum.

--Agabus, section moderator

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: youssef on July 05, 2017, 07:20:33 AM
Don't care so much about eternal damnation. Remenber that we don't believe because we want to go to heaven or because we fear of fire.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpha60 on July 05, 2017, 07:42:24 AM
According to SSPX priest I should only attend the traditional Latin Mass. If there are no Traditional Latin Mass stay home to read the Sunday Mass missal.
But I think it is impossible for me. After 2-3 years I am moving back to Taiwan once I finish my degree. There is only the traditional Latin Mass once a month in Taiwan.

And I think some of the SSPX positions are too extreme.


I have many doubts about some Catholic dogma, especially Papacy. However, fear of final damnation I forced  my self to accept Papal supremacy and papal infallibility.

However, are those dogma really what apostles teach?

During the Council of Florence Pope Eugene IV only people in communion with Rome can be saved. However, there are so many post-schism Saints from the Orthodox Church like St. Seraphim of Sarvo. Some of the Orthodox saints were against the union with Rome like St. Mark of Ephesus.

Some of the Orthodox Saints are former Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic St. Alexis Toth, St. Maxim Sandovich, St. Procopius of Ustyug and St. Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague .

According to Rome refused to submitted to Pope is a mortal sin. Then why there are so many post-schism Orthodox Saints and Orthodox Saints who are former Roman or Eastern Rite Catholic?

The SSPX is a somewhat extremist organization, with undesirable ties to anti-Semitism, and an inconsistent theology.  I would avoid them.

The Orthodox Church is focused on love; we adhere vigorously to our tradition, but we do so in a loving manner, because we love it.

The SSPX strikes me as being about fear and hatred, of the Catholic hierarchy, of non-Latin Rite Catholics, and so on.

What is more, it is unneccesary for Catholics to attend it; the encyclical Summorum Pontificum promulgated by Pope Benedict XVI reinstated universal access to the Tridentine Mass.  Since diocesan Latin masses are available, there is no point for a Catholic seeking the Latin mass to do so schismatically.

I believe it was St. Clement of Rome who wrote that schism is worse than heresy, which is why the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are in a dialogue with the hope of eventually restoring communion; when this restoration happens, I expect that the Orthodox among other things would require the RCC to abandon certain innovations in doctrine and liturgical practice which contradict the Orthodox faith.  (One gets the impression this might well be possible, because the RCC appears to want to restore communion with us more than we desire communion with them, the sticking point right now revolving around the Papacy).
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Ainnir on July 05, 2017, 08:00:39 AM
Don't care so much about eternal damnation. Remenber that we don't believe because we want to go to heaven or because we fear of fire.
+1
I mean, we want to go to heaven, because we want to be with God.  But you're right; it shouldn't be about seeking reward or avoiding punishment.

OP you sound frustrated and confused, but you also sound like you're asking good questions.  I might caution you that seemingly everyone claims they are "Right" and that people will go to hell if they disagree.  Do you read Scripture and pray regularly?  This might be a good place to start, while you begin sorting through your questions.  It might be difficult, but try to practice patience and peace as you sort, too.  :)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpo on July 05, 2017, 08:05:16 AM
Calm down. That would be my first advice. I don't think God wants you to feel miserable. You've gone quite a long way in just a few years. Sit down, breath, and think slowly where you feel most at peace. I believe the EO church is the Catholic Church but others can't make the decision for you.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: youssef on July 05, 2017, 08:28:07 AM
Also i really think after reading your post, that you should start from the begining, do you really believe in God and that Jesus is the son of God.
Because you were baptized in a lutherean church, i had participate lately in some evangelism meeting, the pastor does really know how to do psychological influence, after he finish you will fell touched by his word, and after every meeting you have more then 10 person who want to baptised and some of them did come for the first time. Maybe some of your fear still come from some evangelicalism idea.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 08:34:40 AM
Thank you everyone.

I only begin to pray twice a day morning and evening recently. However, I don't read scripture daily.

I know I should find the Orthodox priest to have a conversion to solve my problem as soon as possible.

However, what else should I do?

I should stop attending the Mass in SSPX chapel immediately?

Also read the church fathers writings and philokalia?

And pray as hard as possible? Fasting more? Do the penance more? 

I think my fear of God since when I was little kid. When I was 9 years old in Taiwan, I was in the summer camp run by  Presbyterian church. The camp leaders told the children that all the non- believers who refuse to accept Jesus Christ will go to hell. Or the Buddhist, Hindu...will end up in hell.
I was very scared when I was a little kid. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 08:41:11 AM
Personally I feel more comfortable and feel more peace in Orthodox church.

When I have conversation with Orthodox priests,the Orthodox priests are so calm and humble. They have a lot of patience.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 08:50:55 AM
I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 05, 2017, 09:02:32 AM
Making the scariest, most threatening propaganda is not a mark of the true church (Leaving aside the other problems with the RCC and sedavacantism). Stop watching those videos and focus on Orthodox prayers and spirituality.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Ainnir on July 05, 2017, 11:25:07 AM
I think my fear of God since when I was little kid. When I was 9 years old in Taiwan, I was in the summer camp run by  Presbyterian church. The camp leaders told the children that all the non- believers who refuse to accept Jesus Christ will go to hell. Or the Buddhist, Hindu...will end up in hell.
I was very scared when I was a little kid.

Try to unlearn that; it may color the rest of your journey and it doesn't sound like you need the extra complication.  There are some childhood church issues that I'm trying to unlearn as well; I know it's difficult.

Definitely read Scripture daily, and try to find and memorize some verses about God's love and mercy and repeat them (or just pray "Lord have mercy") whenever that fear starts creeping in.  It will be hard for you to think clearly if you are marinating in fear.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 05, 2017, 02:31:30 PM
Hold on a minute. Are you saying that basically all of this confusion is caused by YouTube videos? If they make you doubt, the solution is easy: Don't watch them. If it doesn't get any better, throw away the device you use to watch them. Also you don't need to go to SSPX masses if you feel uncomfortable. If you are more of a trad Catholic and prefer the old mass you will know that there are alternatives.
The main thing is: Don't leave the true church because of a few stupid videos.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 05, 2017, 02:41:23 PM
Quote
My chrismation sponsor back in Canada suggested me to find an Orthodox priest to work on my problem. Otherwise he said I might become atheist one day.
Your friend gave you an excellent advice, till you find one, read books with the lives & teachings of orthodox saints to strengthen your faith.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 05, 2017, 04:23:29 PM
Hold on a minute. Are you saying that basically all of this confusion is caused by YouTube videos? If they make you doubt, the solution is easy: Don't watch them. If it doesn't get any better, throw away the device you use to watch them. Also you don't need to go to SSPX masses if you feel uncomfortable. If you are more of a trad Catholic and prefer the old mass you will know that there are alternatives.
The main thing is: Don't leave the true church because of a few stupid videos.

I think my problem is I have been "Sunday Christian" for past few months. Only practice my Christian faith on Sunday. So just some stupid videos from youtube destroyed my faith and lead me into confusion.

However it is really scary. The first thing pop into my mind is to contact the SSPX priest not the Orthodox priests or the Catholic priests from Archdiocese of Madrid.

I don't think it is from God.

Right now no more stupid videos. No more SSPX, sedevacantist, Miachel Voris this type of crazy videos.


Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpha60 on July 05, 2017, 06:42:39 PM
Personally I feel more comfortable and feel more peace in Orthodox church.

When I have conversation with Orthodox priests,the Orthodox priests are so calm and humble. They have a lot of patience.

I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?


There is your answer.  Sacred scripture says God is Love.   If reading SSPX agitprop makes you nervour or upset, and you feel at peace in Orthodoxy, the choice should be obvious. 

I don't understand why you are still even wrestling with this question.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alkis on July 05, 2017, 06:55:42 PM
Thank you everyone.

I only begin to pray twice a day morning and evening recently. However, I don't read scripture daily.

I know I should find the Orthodox priest to have a conversion to solve my problem as soon as possible.

However, what else should I do?

I should stop attending the Mass in SSPX chapel immediately?

Also read the church fathers writings and philokalia?

And pray as hard as possible? Fasting more? Do the penance more? 

I think my fear of God since when I was little kid. When I was 9 years old in Taiwan, I was in the summer camp run by  Presbyterian church. The camp leaders told the children that all the non- believers who refuse to accept Jesus Christ will go to hell. Or the Buddhist, Hindu...will end up in hell.
I was very scared when I was a little kid.

Pray 3 times per day, read as much as you can the holy scriptures, fast when there are fasts, read the works of the Fathers (yes Philokalia would be a great idea)... And don't fear about eternal damnation. Just start your sanctification... It is not a mortal sin to refuse the Pope. :p Return to home.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: recent convert on July 05, 2017, 07:00:35 PM
I would also
 Arefully  read Romans 2. It is clearly evident that God will judge the hearts of all individuals. There is no syncretism here it is just the love of God and  He will save those He knows are worthy. Just pray for others and God will do the rest.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpha60 on July 05, 2017, 07:06:44 PM
I would also
 Arefully  read Romans 2. It is clearly evident that God will judge the hearts of all individuals. There is no syncretism here it is just the love of God and  He will save those He knows are worthy. Just pray for others and God will do the rest.

Indeed so.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 02:40:42 AM
Hold on a minute. Are you saying that basically all of this confusion is caused by YouTube videos? If they make you doubt, the solution is easy: Don't watch them. If it doesn't get any better, throw away the device you use to watch them. Also you don't need to go to SSPX masses if you feel uncomfortable. If you are more of a trad Catholic and prefer the old mass you will know that there are alternatives.
The main thing is: Don't leave the true church because of a few stupid videos.

I think my problem is I have been "Sunday Christian" for past few months. Only practice my Christian faith on Sunday. So just some stupid videos from youtube destroyed my faith and lead me into confusion.

However it is really scary. The first thing pop into my mind is to contact the SSPX priest not the Orthodox priests or the Catholic priests from Archdiocese of Madrid.

I don't think it is from God.

Right now no more stupid videos. No more SSPX, sedevacantist, Miachel Voris this type of crazy videos.

The Institute of Christ the King is in Madrid:
http://latinmassdir.org/location/iglesia-del-tercer-monasterio-de-la-visitacion-madrid/ (http://latinmassdir.org/location/iglesia-del-tercer-monasterio-de-la-visitacion-madrid/)
Why not go there?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 02:42:06 AM
Personally I feel more comfortable and feel more peace in Orthodox church.

When I have conversation with Orthodox priests,the Orthodox priests are so calm and humble. They have a lot of patience.

I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?


There is your answer.  Sacred scripture says God is Love.   If reading SSPX agitprop makes you nervour or upset, and you feel at peace in Orthodoxy, the choice should be obvious. 

I don't understand why you are still even wrestling with this question.

It is not quite that easy, obviously. The mere fact that he is having doubts does not indicate that Orthodoxy is right (for him).
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 02:50:48 AM
Hold on a minute. Are you saying that basically all of this confusion is caused by YouTube videos? If they make you doubt, the solution is easy: Don't watch them. If it doesn't get any better, throw away the device you use to watch them. Also you don't need to go to SSPX masses if you feel uncomfortable. If you are more of a trad Catholic and prefer the old mass you will know that there are alternatives.
The main thing is: Don't leave the true church because of a few stupid videos.

I think my problem is I have been "Sunday Christian" for past few months. Only practice my Christian faith on Sunday. So just some stupid videos from youtube destroyed my faith and lead me into confusion.

However it is really scary. The first thing pop into my mind is to contact the SSPX priest not the Orthodox priests or the Catholic priests from Archdiocese of Madrid.

I don't think it is from God.

Right now no more stupid videos. No more SSPX, sedevacantist, Miachel Voris this type of crazy videos.

The Institute of Christ the King is in Madrid:
http://latinmassdir.org/location/iglesia-del-tercer-monasterio-de-la-visitacion-madrid/ (http://latinmassdir.org/location/iglesia-del-tercer-monasterio-de-la-visitacion-madrid/)
Why not go there?

They change location now. Last Sunday I went to that Monastery the nun told me that the Latin Mass had stop long time ago. So last Sunday I have to go to Novos Ordo Mass. However, my friend gave me the update information about the Latin Mass in Madrid. So this Sunday I might go to the Latin Mass.

The difficult thing is some of my Spanish friends go to SSPX. It is difficult to tell them I am not comfortable with SSPX. But I will try to tell them. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 02:53:41 AM
Personally I feel more comfortable and feel more peace in Orthodox church.

When I have conversation with Orthodox priests,the Orthodox priests are so calm and humble. They have a lot of patience.

I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?


There is your answer.  Sacred scripture says God is Love.   If reading SSPX agitprop makes you nervour or upset, and you feel at peace in Orthodoxy, the choice should be obvious. 

I don't understand why you are still even wrestling with this question.

It is not quite that easy, obviously. The mere fact that he is having doubts does not indicate that Orthodoxy is right (for him).

The thing is so many Catholic apologists make the very strong claim about the papacy. Sometime they use a very aggressive tone. It is easy to believe papacy after watching those Catholic apologists video.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 03:07:59 AM
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???

Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?

Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 03:27:24 AM
In 2-3 years I will finish my study in Madrid. Then I will move back to Taiwan.

The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.

If based on practical reason I should be RC.

However, I don't believe I should choice my faith based on convenience.

I don't think I can follow the Orthodox spirituality and theology and go to Novos Ordo Mass on Sunday.

I don't think in the future when I have children I can teach my kids Orthodox spirituality and theology but at the same time push them to accept all the RC dogma.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: youssef on July 06, 2017, 03:28:56 AM
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???

Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?

Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.

You have more non christian then christian so the number had nothing to do.
For me you should stop from the begining, you are so much confuse. Try to rejoice where you feel confortable till you find peace.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 04:07:29 AM
If I just follow my heart, I will say that the Eastern Orthodoxy should be the place for me.

However, if based on psychological factors, I think I will be RC.

Maybe I don't know enough church history and theology. I am so easy to be convinced by the RC apologists.

However, instead of listen to those apologists or reading the articles online. I think best idea is for me to study theology and church history seriously. In order to find out which one is the real apostolic church created by Christ.


   
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 05:24:57 AM
However, instead of listen to those apologists or reading the articles online. I think best idea is for me to study theology and church history seriously. In order to find out which one is the real apostolic church created by Christ.
Yes!
And remember "audiatur et altera pars", i.e. do not listen exclusively to Orthodox/Catholic apologists.
I do not really know anything about Taiwan, but if you are planning to live there and the Orthodox parish is two hours of driving away, the distance is something to be considered.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 06, 2017, 06:50:40 AM
Quote
The thing is so many Catholic apologists make the very strong claim about the papacy. Sometime they use a very aggressive tone. It is easy to believe papacy after watching those Catholic apologists video.
You mean quoting forged documents like pseudo isodere and isolated sentences from church fathers out of context ?

People who are new to christianity can be easili decieved by these wolves, i know many stories of divine wrath where God repudiates the latin heretics, in faviour of the orthodox church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 07:22:15 AM
Quote
The thing is so many Catholic apologists make the very strong claim about the papacy. Sometime they use a very aggressive tone. It is easy to believe papacy after watching those Catholic apologists video.
You mean quoting forged documents like pseudo isodere and isolated sentences from church fathers out of context ?

People who are new to christianity can be easili decieved by these wolves, i know many stories of divine wrath where God repudiates the latin heretics, in faviour of the orthodox church.
Why are you so angry? I can imagine that this kind of fanaticism is the exact thing that the OP may have observed in those Sedi videos.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 07:30:36 AM
Quote
The thing is so many Catholic apologists make the very strong claim about the papacy. Sometime they use a very aggressive tone. It is easy to believe papacy after watching those Catholic apologists video.
You mean quoting forged documents like pseudo isodere and isolated sentences from church fathers out of context ?

People who are new to christianity can be easili decieved by these wolves, i know many stories of divine wrath where God repudiates the latin heretics, in faviour of the orthodox church.

I read some articles from Catholic Answers, they provide many quotes from the Church Fathers to prove the papacy. That is why I am very confuse.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LBK on July 06, 2017, 08:04:30 AM

I read some articles from Catholic Answers, they provide many quotes from the Church Fathers to prove the papacy. That is why I am very confuse.

Anthony, I can understand your confusion, but there's a simple answer.  :)

Christ appointed not one apostle, but twelve, and later another seventy. Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all the Apostles, not just to only one. The Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost on all the disciples, not just on St Peter. And it was St Paul who corrected St Peter at the first Council at Jerusalem, where St James, the brother of the Lord, was in charge.

So to say St Peter is the boss of all the others is simply wrong.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 08:14:17 AM

I read some articles from Catholic Answers, they provide many quotes from the Church Fathers to prove the papacy. That is why I am very confuse.

Anthony, I can understand your confusion, but there's a simple answer.  :)

Christ appointed not one apostle, but twelve, and later another seventy. Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all the Apostles, not just to only one. The Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost on all the disciples, not just on St Peter. And it was St Paul who corrected St Peter at the first Council at Jerusalem, where St James, the brother of the Lord, was in charge.

So to say St Peter is the boss of all the others is simply wrong.

Ok I see.
Some of my RC friends they argue that Orthodox church does not have central authority. Every bishops have a voice so there are some confusion in Orthodox church.
Also, so many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church does not have a Pope so there are no additional councils after Seven Ecumenical Council.
RCs said  there are so many canonical territory problem because there is no Pope in Eastern Orthodox Church.

What are the responses from Orthodox Christians?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 08:26:06 AM
Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 08:42:26 AM
So to say St Peter is the boss of all the others is simply wrong.
Indeed, nowhere in scripture was Peter the boss nor was the pope of Rome the boss in the history of the first millennium.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 08:42:40 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Dominika on July 06, 2017, 08:44:56 AM
That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward.
Orthodox claim that Holy Spirit is guiding the Church in order to preserve trhe true faith and disover it more deeply. If you move forward, there is a change you fall into a heresy.

Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.
The Central Authory in the Orthodox Church is Jesus Christ himself. Who or what can be a better authority?

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.
Byzantien Empire - in some way yes. But, since I consider that the whole Orthodox Church is EOs plus OOs, the second one can say something different.
Soviet Union, communist governments - sometiems in parts of Poland with little Orthodox population people confuse Orthodoxy with communism (sic!).
Personally, I think that communism was something create specially in order to destroy or weak Orthodoxy. For me there is no a coincidence that firstly communism "attacked" countries with Orthodox majority and huge Orthodox minority.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 08:47:21 AM
Hold on a minute. Are you saying that basically all of this confusion is caused by YouTube videos? If they make you doubt, the solution is easy: Don't watch them. If it doesn't get any better, throw away the device you use to watch them. Also you don't need to go to SSPX masses if you feel uncomfortable. If you are more of a trad Catholic and prefer the old mass you will know that there are alternatives.
The main thing is: Don't leave the true church because of a few stupid videos.

He's not leaving the true Church, he's leaving Rome.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 08:47:46 AM
I think my problem is I have been "Sunday Christian" for past few months. Only practice my Christian faith on Sunday. So just some stupid videos from youtube destroyed my faith and lead me into confusion.

However it is really scary. The first thing pop into my mind is to contact the SSPX priest not the Orthodox priests or the Catholic priests from Archdiocese of Madrid.

I don't think it is from God.

Right now no more stupid videos. No more SSPX, sedevacantist, Miachel Voris this type of crazy videos.
St. Ignatius of Loyola left the Churches his masterpiece, the "Discernment of Spirits".  You can tell where a feeling or a thought come from by its fruits.  If the fruit is of peace or joy, then the source is from the Good Spirit; if the fruit is of restlessness or sadness, then the source is from the evil spirit.  Also, never make a change of life or of plans when restless or sad.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 06, 2017, 08:48:47 AM
Quote
Why are you so angry? I can imagine that this kind of fanaticism is the exact thing that the OP may have observed in those Sedi videos
Angry and a fanatic ? No..lol.

Given the nature of this discussion we (me and you)are to be at odds however.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 08:50:17 AM
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???

Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?

Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.

The same way Sunni Islam spread, the violence of the State and of the sword. EO vs OO is a extremely complicated issue, I've given up trying to make sense of it. I sort of think what Mina Soliman said is helpful, just be Orthodox don't worry about which clique you join.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 08:53:56 AM

I read some articles from Catholic Answers, they provide many quotes from the Church Fathers to prove the papacy. That is why I am very confuse.

Anthony, I can understand your confusion, but there's a simple answer.  :)

Christ appointed not one apostle, but twelve, and later another seventy. Christ gave the authority to bind and loose to all the Apostles, not just to only one. The Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost on all the disciples, not just on St Peter. And it was St Paul who corrected St Peter at the first Council at Jerusalem, where St James, the brother of the Lord, was in charge.

So to say St Peter is the boss of all the others is simply wrong.

Ok I see.
Some of my RC friends they argue that Orthodox church does not have central authority. Every bishops have a voice so there are some confusion in Orthodox church.
Also, so many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church does not have a Pope so there are no additional councils after Seven Ecumenical Council.
RCs said  there are so many canonical territory problem because there is no Pope in Eastern Orthodox Church.

What are the responses from Orthodox Christians?

We have nine Ecumenical Councils. Two are just not 'officially' councils. Ecumenical merely means "imperial", councils sanctioned by the imperial authority, having nothing to do with the Pope. But again, all of this stems from an assumption that we need, or Jesus wanted, a central authority. I think that's basically absent from history. There was no central authority within Christianity for the first millennium. The authority par excellence was the Church itself, through Her Holy Tradition. Not a specific or single Bishop.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:00:54 AM
Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.
The Roman Church added the Filioque to the Creed because Charlemagne wanted to be the sole Roman emperor and wanted to impugn the other Roman emperor in Constantinople by accusing him of heresy for failing to say the Creed with the Filioque.  And though popes resisted Charlemagne more or less successfully, the Germanic Holy Roman emperors continued putting pressure on popes until Pope Benedict V officially added the Filioque to the Creed.


And then we had the cases of the Roman Church siding with Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, the military dictatorships in Latin America, etc.

(Do not take this discussion of politics further. If you want to do so, do so here (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71837.new.html). --Agabus)

Perhaps such choices, as poor as they seem from the 21st century, might have seemed the least bad at the time, for both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 09:05:53 AM
Yeah, that's really important to mention. Rome sided with fascism in the 20th century, Orthodoxy however, didn't 'side' with Communism more like was subverted by the State. As was basically any religious group in the Second World was at the time, I suppose.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.
The Roman Church added the Filioque to the Creed because Charlemagne wanted to be the sole Roman emperor and wanted to impugn the other Roman emperor in Constantinople by accusing him of heresy for failing to say the Creed with the Filioque.  And though popes resisted Charlemagne more or less successfully, the Germanic Holy Roman emperors continued putting pressure on popes until Pope Benedict V officially added the Filioque to the Creed.


And then we had the cases of the Roman Church siding with Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, the military dictatorships in Latin America, etc.


Perhaps such choices, as poor as they seem from the 21st century, might have seemed the least bad at the time, for both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:10:31 AM
The thing is so many Catholic apologists make the very strong claim about the papacy. Sometime they use a very aggressive tone. It is easy to believe papacy after watching those Catholic apologists video.
Most Catholic apologists in the US are converts from Protestantism.  I actually admire most Protestants for converting to Catholicism, especially if from studying doctrine, because they demonstrate a great love for God and the Truth, even at great psychological and social cost.  However, most unfortunately retain their Protestant lenses and way of argumentation, as it takes many years living the Catholic liturgical cycle to immerse in the Catholic language and approach.


In other words, though they are quick to accuse Protestants of proof texting Holy Scripture when discussing Roman Catholic doctrines with them, they are often guilty of the same sin, proof texting Patristic writings, when discussing with Orthodox.


For instance, it's just impossible to find any justification for papal supremacy in the Church Fathers, yet they frame patristic statements on papal primacy as such.  Buyer beware.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:13:29 AM
The difficult thing is some of my Spanish friends go to SSPX. It is difficult to tell them I am not comfortable with SSPX. But I will try to tell them.
Methinks that you might be surprised to find that you're not the only one.  ;)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:18:49 AM
Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?
Because the New World was discovered by Europeans in the 15th century and much of the world was colonized by European imperialism in the 17th century.  Also, since the 7th century Christians have been slaughtered by the scimitar.  Before then, the largest Christian bodies were Orthodox.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:19:57 AM
The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.
Such a long trip for Divine Liturgy could be difficult every Sunday, but should be possible once a month, yes?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:23:30 AM
However, instead of listen to those apologists or reading the articles online. I think best idea is for me to study theology and church history seriously. In order to find out which one is the real apostolic church created by Christ.
THIS!

Paraphrasing Bl. John Newman, to study Church history of the first millennium is to cease to be Roman Catholic.  ;)


I recommend that you study the Eastern theology on original sin and compare it with how Catholic theology approaches it.  This might be bring you psychological peace about the East.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 09:24:40 AM
The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.
Such a long trip for Divine Liturgy could be difficult every Sunday, but should be possible once a month, yes?

I think is I believe Orthodox is a true church I will go to Divine Liturgy every Sunday. Because I really don't feel peace in the Novos Ordo RC parish.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:25:21 AM
I read some articles from Catholic Answers, they provide many quotes from the Church Fathers to prove the papacy. That is why I am very confuse.
As I said above, wherever you read apologists quote the Fathers to support papal supremacy, think of papal primacy, which the Orthodox Churches hold.  It'll help to clear any confusion.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:27:11 AM
I think is I believe Orthodox is a true church I will go to Divine Liturgy every Sunday. Because I really don't feel peace in the Novos Ordo RC parish.
Though you don't need to go church every Sunday, for a while once a month might be all that you could do.  With time, you might want to move closer to the Orthodox church, if only to be not 2 but 1h away.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 09:29:49 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 09:33:00 AM
I think my problem is I have been "Sunday Christian" for past few months. Only practice my Christian faith on Sunday. So just some stupid videos from youtube destroyed my faith and lead me into confusion.

However it is really scary. The first thing pop into my mind is to contact the SSPX priest not the Orthodox priests or the Catholic priests from Archdiocese of Madrid.

I don't think it is from God.

Right now no more stupid videos. No more SSPX, sedevacantist, Miachel Voris this type of crazy videos.
St. Ignatius of Loyola left the Churches his masterpiece, the "Discernment of Spirits".  You can tell where a feeling or a thought come from by its fruits.  If the fruit is of peace or joy, then the source is from the Good Spirit; if the fruit is of restlessness or sadness, then the source is from the evil spirit.  Also, never make a change of life or of plans when restless or sad.

This past two weeks are so terrible for me. I went to Catholic priests for confession 4 time already but still can not find peace. Sometime I go to weekday Mass 2 times a day and still very stressful. I pray in front of Blessed Sacrament a lot. Bust I just can not have peace. I am very anxious.
I can not focus on my school work. I can't sleep well.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:41:37 AM

Some of my RC friends they argue that Orthodox church does not have central authority. Every bishops have a voice so there are some confusion in Orthodox church.

Is the RC exempt from confusion?  Ever heard of the Protestant Reformation?  Somehow the OC seem to be immune to it.

In our present lifetimes, we are witnessing Pope Francis confusing the faithful and bishops adopting conflicting practices.  So it doesn't seem that central authority is an antidote to human failings.
Quote

Also, so many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church does not have a Pope so there are no additional councils after Seven Ecumenical Council.

Why should there be?  The first few councils happened in relatively rapid succession, but then tapered down as the most important doctrines had been understood by the absolute majority of Christians.  So one has to wonder if councils should happen as often as they did in the past.

Finally, what the RC calls Ecumenical Councils were mostly local councils or just synods in their deliberations and conclusions.
Quote
RCs said  there are so many canonical territory problem because there is no Pope in Eastern Orthodox Church.

The same territorial issue is present with the overlapping canonical jurisdictions of the Latin and Eastern Catholic Churches.  However, it's no issue at all, for it does not affect the lives of the faithful or the authority of particular bishops.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:46:33 AM
This past two weeks are so terrible for me. I went to Catholic priests for confession 4 time already but still can not find peace. Sometime I go to weekday Mass 2 times a day and still very stressful. I pray in front of Blessed Sacrament a lot. Bust I just can not have peace. I am very anxious.
I can not focus on my school work. I can't sleep well.
Perhaps you might consider taking a break.  Do go to Sunday Mass and pray the Our Father in the morning, at midday and in the evening.  Don't push yourself.  You belong to Christ already, you don't need to prove Him that and should just find comfort in it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 06, 2017, 09:48:13 AM
As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
I agree, but methinks that most of these examples are not matters of doctrine, and none of doctrinal development.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 09:52:31 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Faithseeker on July 06, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
Peace in your heart can only be found when you follow Christ. I live 30 minutes from my parish but my disability prevents me from attending Liturgy every Sunday. I go once a month.  I email and Skype with my priest. 

You went to the same Orthodox parish in Canada as I attend. 

The peace in your heart will not come from people,  it will come from Christ.  Pray, read the Scriptures daily - the daily Gospel reading,  the Psalms,  the daily Epistle.

Don't try to pack a lot of "stuff" into your spiritual life.  Keep it slow and easy. 

The RCC has many councils as they try to "fit into the secular world." But Christ said we live IN the world,  we are not OF the world.  We must always remember His teachings.  Go back to the Sermon on the Mount -  if nothing else,  it provides the complete basics of our faith.

Those who support the papacy will always have "proof-texts" for what they believe.

At the Day of Judgment,  will you stand before the Bishop of Rome to be judged or in front of Christ? The answer is there.  So that helps us understand Who is infallible and Who has the "last word." It's not going to be any bishop on earth,  no matter how holy a life he may have led.

We can pick apart the Great Schism and try to explain "which side separated" - Catholics will say Orthodox,  Orthodox will say Catholic.  Historically speaking, the Bishop of Rome began the separation from the "main church" and ultimately over time,  more things were added to "his power" and declared infallible.

We can discuss the differences between EO, OO and RC - but in the end,  there's one importance - Christ. He's the only one with authority,  the ultimate, infallible authority. 

Your heart appears to be connected to the early Church - before all the "politics" came in - that is the Orthodox Church. The "politics" were ironed out during the Ecumenical Councils. Not to fit the world's point of view but to show us where the world was wrong and keep us on a steady path.  The RC Church never did this - it BECAME the political power so much so that it led to unspeakable bloodshed all in the name of Christ.

Didn't Christ condemn bloodshed and teach people to be humble,  to know they are not perfect,  to know they don't have all the answers?  Only God has the answer. When we start depending on humans to provide us answers,  we are taking a step away from Christ.

Listen to Him - read or listen to the Scriptures. The writings of the Church Fathers help us understand how to live as Christians in a world of non-Christians by explaining the Gospel and encouraging us to follow Christ.

Prayer can be said anywhere,  anytime. If you can attend Liturgy once a month,  go once a month.  Pray the Typica when you can't attend Liturgy. God understands.  It comes from the heart and it gives peace to the heart and the only peace we can have is the peace that God provides.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 10:15:10 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.

Exactly. Now you admit the existence of some diffuse concept of "organic development".
Who determines what is organic and what not?
The pope?  ;)
An ecumenical council which has not been held in centuries?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 06, 2017, 10:22:46 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.

Exactly. Now you admit the existence of some diffuse concept of "organic development".
Who determines what is organic and what not?
The pope?  ;)
An ecumenical council which has not been held in centuries?

If you read the Church Fathers, or the Scriptures, they answer your question for you.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 06, 2017, 10:28:17 AM
Oh, that clears it up.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2017, 10:35:15 AM
Do you have an EO or OO nearby?  Go there.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 10:38:08 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?

It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?

A lot more questions could be asked.

So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Which is the difference between organic development, true to Church tradition and history, and contrived development, which is not.

Exactly. Now you admit the existence of some diffuse concept of "organic development".
Who determines what is organic and what not?
The pope?  ;)
An ecumenical council which has not been held in centuries?

If you read the Church Fathers, or the Scriptures, they answer your question for you.

Oh yes... I see this discussion is in vain. Not that I want to argue against Church Fathers, of course.
The OP should just remember that this is an Orthodox forum and most writers are orthodox and biased.
Of course, I am not saying that I am necessarily objective in this matter.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Luke on July 06, 2017, 10:46:07 AM
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 06, 2017, 10:50:01 AM
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
The Orthodox-Catholic discussion is definitely difficult. The best advice already has been given to the OP:
Study Church Fathers, study church history - the RC church need not at all have to fear a fair and (as far as this is possible for humans) unbiased comparison.
Furthermore pray and do not worry every second about eternal damnation.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: AlioshaKaramazov on July 06, 2017, 11:03:01 AM
Hello Anthony! Talking from personal experience, I think you should be wary of Internet apologetics regarding the Papacy. It's a very difficult topic that requires a lot of reading. You can start by checking some of the bibliography in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71557.0.html
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 11:13:10 AM
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
The Orthodox-Catholic discussion is definitely difficult. The best advice already has been given to the OP:
Study Church Fathers, study church history - the RC church need not at all have to fear a fair and (as far as this is possible for humans) unbiased comparison.
Furthermore pray and do not worry every second about eternal damnation.

The thing is it is very difficult for people who are making the decision about going to RC or EO/OO.
I would like to hear the opinions from Roman Catholic also.
I don't think it is an easy path for people who are seeking the true faith.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 11:19:08 AM
^Any human (except for the Lord) that has existed on earth is biased; therefore, your point is irrelevant.
The Orthodox-Catholic discussion is definitely difficult. The best advice already has been given to the OP:
Study Church Fathers, study church history - the RC church need not at all have to fear a fair and (as far as this is possible for humans) unbiased comparison.
Furthermore pray and do not worry every second about eternal damnation.


Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge took at about 50 years of pray and study. Finally decide to move further East. It is definitely not an easy path for most of people. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 06, 2017, 11:21:22 AM
Hello Anthony! Talking from personal experience, I think you should be wary of Internet apologetics regarding the Papacy. It's a very difficult topic that requires a lot of reading. You can start by checking some of the bibliography in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71557.0.html

Muchas Gracias! Thank you!
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Agabus on July 06, 2017, 11:28:52 AM
Check your sources. Almost none of the Papal quotes are genuine, or are provided a genuine interpretation. I've read and re-read Steven Ray's book, among other books and lists of Papal quotes, and they're almost always distorted in some way.

Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.

Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.

Any responses from Orthodox Christians?

Doctrinal development is a bad thing, not a good thing. It sullies the tradition and purity of the faith. The Church is the guardian of tradition, not the main lead developer of tradition.

As a "traditional" Catholic (how I dislike the pleonasm), I am all with you in principle.
However, it is not so easy to exactly define what qualifies as doctrinal development or change of tradition.
A few questions to illustrate this:

When did the church start to celebrate Christmas?
Was it a not allowed change back then?

When did the church introduce liturgy in church Slavonic?
Was it an unwarranted reformation back then?
Not unimportant questions, but not doctrinal as per doctrinal development.

Quote
It was a long way from the resurrection to the Nicene creed -
would the apostles have put it exactly the same way as in the creed, if asked?
Herein is where your case can be made.


Quote
So there definitely has been a lot of change since Pentecost almost 2000 years ago.
It is not as if Orthodoxy had been "frozen" back then and not changed a single bit till today.

Some are willing to acknowledge this.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 06, 2017, 11:48:26 AM
Quote
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???
I can give you few quick examples why EO christology is the correct one, but in privet massaging if you are interested.
Quote
Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?
+
Quote
Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.
See Luke 12:32
Quote
The Novos Ordo RC parish just about 10 minutes drive from my parents' house. The Orthodox parishes are two hours away by train.
Go to the Orthodox parish, its great merit to travel for 2 hours just so you can be at the right place.

Quote
Some of my RC friends they argue that Orthodox church does not have central authority. Every bishops have a voice so there are some confusion in Orthodox church.
Yes, we do have wolves in our own Church, but the true shepherds speak unanimously, without knowing each other and harmoniously with the church fathers.

Quote
Also, so many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church does not have a Pope so there are no additional councils after Seven Ecumenical Council.
RCs said  there are so many canonical territory problem because there is no Pope in Eastern Orthodox Church.
Your friends are either ignorant or dishonest on purpose.
After the first seven general councils, our other councils are:

The Encyclical Letter of Saint Photius (867)
The First Letter of Michael Cerularius to Peter of Antioch (1054)
The decisions of ‘the Councils of Constantinople in 1341 and 1351 on the Hesychast Controversy
The Encyclical Letter of Saint Mark of Ephesus (1440-1441).
The Confession of Faith by Gennadius, Patriarch of Constantinople (1455-1456)
The Replies of Jeremias the Second to the Lutherans (1573-1581)
The Confession of Faith by Metrophanes Kritopoulos (1625)
The Orthodox Confession by Peter of Moghila, in its revised form (ratified by the Council of Jassy, 1642)
The Confession of Dositheus (ratified by the Council of Jerusalem, 1672)
The Answers of the Orthodox Patriarchs to the Non-Jurors (1718, 1723)
The Reply of the Orthodox Patriarchs to Pope Pius the Ninth (1848)
The Reply of the Synod of Constantinople to Pope Leo the Thirteenth (1895)

We had a bandit synod under freemason Meletius and another robber synod just recently Crete in 2016.

Quote
Many Roman Catholics that that the Roman Catholic Church has doctrine development. That the Holy Spirit is guiding the Roman Catholic Church to move forward. Some said because lack of central authority in Eastern Orthodox Church, so there is no doctrine development in Eastern Orthodox Church.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He doesn't change His opinion. The full revelation was given to the apostles at pentecost, the councils job is NOT to develop new doctrines but to protect the Church from innovations and people who preach another gospel, different than that of the apostles.
Quote
Also, many RCs said that Eastern Orthodox Church always compromise to secular authorities like Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and communist governments in Eastern Europe.
We have been under many yokes but we never changed our faith, unlike the vatican which is always innovating and changing.

Quote
@Sharbel: The Roman Church added the Filioque to the Creed because Charlemagne wanted to be the sole Roman emperor and wanted to impugn the other Roman emperor in Constantinople by accusing him of heresy for failing to say the Creed with the Filioque.  And though popes resisted Charlemagne more or less successfully, the Germanic Holy Roman emperors continued putting pressure on popes until Pope Benedict V officially added the Filioque to the Creed.
On the side note, you might find this (http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/104360.htm) interesting




Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 06, 2017, 04:37:26 PM
The question I have is if RC is wrong. Then only EO and OO left for use to choice.

Then which one is the right church EO or OO???

Also, if RC is wrong, EO and OO are right, then why there are more RC parishes in this planet? Why RC spread so fast?

Every where you go there are RC parishes. In my native country Taiwan there are only two Eastern Orthodox parishes, however there are more RC parishes in Taiwan than EO.

In a subsequent post, you write:

If I just follow my heart, I will say that the Eastern Orthodoxy should be the place for me.

However, if based on psychological factors, I think I will be RC.

Maybe I don't know enough church history and theology. I am so easy to be convinced by the RC apologists.

However, instead of listen to those apologists or reading the articles online. I think best idea is for me to study theology and church history seriously. In order to find out which one is the real apostolic church created by Christ.


 

And I think that's your answer, along with prayer. 

My sense of Western Christianity is that it is a lot more comfortable with declaring that you need to believe X, Y, and Z or else you'll be damned to hell.  My impression with converts from RCism in particular is that they have to overcome a sort of theological PTSD in order to finally get to the point where they can seriously consider making a change. 

I'm not going to tell you that doctrine doesn't matter; it does.  But these things are not simple, and I think God understands our limitations.  I think it is possible to know the truth and to make good decisions, but if someone comes to a conclusion different from mine, it's not necessarily out of malice, and I think God can figure out how to deal with that. 

So I'd say the first thing to do is to try and learn how to love God and to believe and place your trust in the love he has for you.  Prayer is the place to start doing this. 

Then, trusting in God's love and aiming to order your life in a way pleasing to him, read the Scriptures, study Church history, theology, etc., and try to sort it out with God through prayer. 

Eventually, you'll have to make a choice because there's only so much you can learn from the outside.  So choose and try your best. 

If it's not for you, you'll come to realise that in a way you cannot ignore, and then maybe you can re-assess and try something else. 

Once, I found myself wrestling with which was correct--RC, EO, or OO.  I followed this advice and am at peace.  I hope and pray for the same for you. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 07, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Holy Scripture and 7 Ecumenical councils?

What else???

Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

For the Latin Church it is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and Pope...

In the Eastern Orthodox Church will be each bishop to interprets the teaching of the church?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 07, 2017, 11:38:13 AM
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

The Church.  Usually, through the Orthodox episcopate. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 04:00:23 AM
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

The Church.  Usually, through the Orthodox episcopate.


Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, revealed to us through Holy Scripture and seven ecumenical councils.

Also, all the early church fathers' writing???
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 04:02:50 AM
By the way this Sunday, I am going to Divine Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Church instead of Novos Ordo Mass or  Tridentine Latin Mass.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 08, 2017, 05:26:08 AM
By the way this Sunday, I am going to Divine Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Church instead of Novos Ordo Mass or  Tridentine Latin Mass.
You know that as a Catholic, you have to observe Sunday obligation. Go to a Catholic mass and if you are interested, additionally visit a Divine Liturgy as an observer. You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 06:39:36 AM
By the way this Sunday, I am going to Divine Liturgy in Eastern Orthodox Church instead of Novos Ordo Mass or  Tridentine Latin Mass.
You know that as a Catholic, you have to observe Sunday obligation. Go to a Catholic mass and if you are interested, additionally visit a Divine Liturgy as an observer. You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.

Maybe I will go to the Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning and the Novus Ordo Mass on Sunday or Saturday night only about half an hour.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: youssef on July 08, 2017, 06:53:37 AM
Try to go to a melkite liturgy. As they are chatolics by they use similar liturgy as orthodox.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: youssef on July 08, 2017, 07:12:50 AM
Try to go to a melkite liturgy. As they are chatolics by they use similar liturgy as orthodox.

You have for exemple the ukranian greek catholic church in Madrid.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 08:55:09 AM
Try to go to a melkite liturgy. As they are chatolics by they use similar liturgy as orthodox.

You have for exemple the ukranian greek catholic church in Madrid.

 :D It is just about 10 minutes by metro from my residence.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alkis on July 08, 2017, 09:00:03 AM
What are the infallible sources in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Who has the authority to interpret the teaching of church???

The Church.  Usually, through the Orthodox episcopate.


Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, revealed to us through Holy Scripture and seven ecumenical councils.

Also, all the early church fathers' writing???

In Orthodoxy there is not an infalible source. Only God is infallible and guides His Church to His truth through the Holy Spirit. A council can make mistake. A bishop can make mistake. A holy Father can also make mistake. We have a so rich Tradition. We follow what all the orthodox churches follow...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 08, 2017, 09:26:33 AM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LBK on July 08, 2017, 09:35:26 AM
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 08, 2017, 02:09:37 PM
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Okay. In his earlier posts, his profile said RC faith which he now changed to "confused Christian", I think. Also he wrote he was going to SSPX masses which is not exactly Orthodox. The whole story is a bit strange.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 08, 2017, 02:39:36 PM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 02:54:53 PM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 08, 2017, 04:49:25 PM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 04:59:36 PM
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Okay. In his earlier posts, his profile said RC faith which he now changed to "confused Christian", I think. Also he wrote he was going to SSPX masses which is not exactly Orthodox. The whole story is a bit strange.

I said when I was age of 18 I received confirmation in Roman Catholic Church. However, when I was 26 years old I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church. However, last month I contacted SSPX priests to receive communion. However, right now I am confused now. So currently I am not in communion with either RC or EO now.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 05:04:45 PM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.

SSPX priests even against Novus Ordo Mass. They said when there are no Tridentine Latin Mass you should stay home to read the Sunday Mass Missal.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 08, 2017, 05:06:26 PM
To all those who are suggesting Anthony attends a Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic service, please note what he wrote in the OP, especially what is in bold font:

Quote
When I was living in Minnesota, USA I was baptized in Lutheran church (ELCA) at the age of 17. When I moved to Canada the Lutheran church is very far away from the place I lived. In that time I didn't know much about the difference between ELCA and Roman Catholic church. So I received my confirmation in RC.

However, after a few months I encountered some verbal and spiritual abuses in RC. It caused me a lot of pain.

In the year of 2006 I discovered the Eastern Orthodoxy. First time I was in Orthodox church I felt home. In Orthodoxy church I experience God's super natural love that Catholic and Protestant church don't have. However, because I have received confirmation in RC before. According to RC, a Catholic who left the Catholic church and become Orthodox Christian that is mean refuse to summit to the Pope. Which is a mortal sin, and can go to hell for that.

So I decided to go to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church. However, I find out it is very difficult to follow the Eastern spirituality and still be in full communion with Rome. I found out UGCC is very Latinized. Therefore I continue to travel East and attended the Orthodox church more frequent.

Finally in January 2012, I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church and became Orthodox Christian, in Waterloo Ontario, Canada.

Anthony is a member of the Orthodox church. He is no longer under the RC rule of Sunday Obligation.
Okay. In his earlier posts, his profile said RC faith which he now changed to "confused Christian", I think. Also he wrote he was going to SSPX masses which is not exactly Orthodox. The whole story is a bit strange.

I said when I was age of 18 I received confirmation in Roman Catholic Church. However, when I was 26 years old I received Chrismation in Eastern Orthodox Church. However, last month I contacted SSPX priests to receive communion. However, right now I am confused now. So currently I am not in communion with either RC or EO now.

When I was deciding between EO and OO, I did so based on pragmatism. I suggest you first study what it is you need to know, and then just make a decision.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 05:10:00 PM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.

And he's not. So why are you recommending SSPX polemical positions in the thread?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 05:34:13 PM
I have nothing against OO.
However, I prefer to pray in Byzantine way. Especially, I prefer the Byzantine Slavic tradition.

From 2006-2011, I thought I was called by God to be an "Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome". To be fully Orthodox and be in communion with Rome at the same time.
However, It was very stressful for me. I noticed there are many doctrinal difference between Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic church.
When I was going to Greek Catholic Parish, I had to constantly persuade myself that the EO and RC are the same faith but just difference expression of faith.
However, it was very difficult for me to do this type of mental exercise all the time.

I think it is impossible to be an "Orthodox Christian in Communion with Rome".


Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 05:40:45 PM
I have nothing against OO.
However, I prefer to pray in Byzantine way. Especially, I prefer the Byzantine Slavic tradition.

From 2006-2011, I thought I was called by God to be an "Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome". To be fully Orthodox and be in communion with Rome at the same time.
However, It was very stressful for me. I noticed there are many doctrinal difference between Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic church.
When I was going to Greek Catholic Parish, I had to constantly persuade myself that the EO and RC are the same faith but just difference expression of faith.
However, it was very difficult for me to do this type of mental exercise all the time.

I think it is impossible to be an "Orthodox Christian in Communion with Rome".

Well, yes, it is a large problem, much larger than you or me.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 08, 2017, 05:45:12 PM
I received my Chrismation into the Eastern Orthodox church back in 2012

However, by reading and watching the propaganda from"Traditional Catholics" like SSPX and sedevacantists I began to have the psychological fear of eternal damnation. So I contacted the SSPX to be in communion with them.

However, I think it is quite scary. If God wants me to revert back to Roman Catholic Church. Then why the first things pop into my mind is contact the priest from SSPX. The Canonically irregular group inside the Roman Catholic Church.
If God wants me to revert back to RC, then he will lead me to contact the Diocesan priests or priests from religious orders that have the regular Canonical status.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 06:37:13 PM
Beware the group that has the closest familiarity with damnation.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 08, 2017, 07:02:31 PM
I have nothing against OO.
However, I prefer to pray in Byzantine way. Especially, I prefer the Byzantine Slavic tradition.

From 2006-2011, I thought I was called by God to be an "Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome". To be fully Orthodox and be in communion with Rome at the same time.
However, It was very stressful for me. I noticed there are many doctrinal difference between Orthodox Church and Roman Catholic church.
When I was going to Greek Catholic Parish, I had to constantly persuade myself that the EO and RC are the same faith but just difference expression of faith.
However, it was very difficult for me to do this type of mental exercise all the time.

I think it is impossible to be an "Orthodox Christian in Communion with Rome".

I agree. It's impossible. So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not. Also, you have to ask whether the Orthodox Church is the Mystical Body of Christ or not. Personally, there's simply no way I can accept that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ at this point. Sure, I understand why people might be Roman Catholics, but I personally cannot bring myself to believe it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 07:26:03 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 08, 2017, 08:52:01 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 09:02:52 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.

Clever. You can't just pretend you never said "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 08, 2017, 09:55:47 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.

Clever. You can't just pretend you never said "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ."


Those claims are interrelated.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 08, 2017, 10:39:56 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Okay. If that's what you think, why do you think that? I think that's the whole matter involved. There is much more to religion and spirituality than what I have deduced, but regarding ecclesiology, I can't think of any way that this might be different.

The Mystical Body of Christ: Rome or Orthodoxy?

That seems to be the question at hand. Religion and spirituality is more than this question, but that's not what the OP is asking.

Clever. You can't just pretend you never said "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ."


Those claims are interrelated.

Precisely.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 09, 2017, 03:49:34 AM
You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

So you are SSPX?
Nope.

And he's not. So why are you recommending SSPX polemical positions in the thread?
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 09, 2017, 03:56:52 AM
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!

You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 09, 2017, 06:30:53 AM
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!

You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.
I fail to see how this is polemical. Also, it is a classic SSPX conviction to not go to Novus Ordo masses, let alone schismatic liturgy.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 09, 2017, 01:04:28 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 09, 2017, 01:05:23 PM
That's not true. At no time I was recommending "SSPX polemical positions" (whatever that is) in this thread. I just provided a link dealing with Sunday obligation regulations and recommended to go to another traditional community for mass. That's all. Now, you you could think about why the OP had the sudden idea to contact a SSPX priest!

You cannot fulfill Sunday obligation going to an Orthodox liturgy.
You certainly can if there are no Catholic Churches around, unlike a Protestant service.
I do not think that this is correct, see e.g. http://jimmyakin.com/2005/03/orthodox_liturg-2.html
A Catholic may go to an Orthodox liturgy for private edification, prayer or whatever. But this has nothing to do with Sunday obligation.
Certainly an average SSPX priest would also not advise it.

That's standard RC teaching and practice.  If the SSPX accepts that, it doesn't become polemical. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 09, 2017, 03:54:51 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 10, 2017, 02:08:46 AM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Agree, leadership is not the problem, infact as christians we are called to obey God appointed authority, and respect our elders.

Here is where the problem come, i personally cant see the vatican church as inspired, i see it as earthly schoolman philosiphizing about things, so how am i supposed to trust people who dress up like bishops, but act and speak like secular people ? Furthurmore wild groups like sspx and sedes remind me too much of protestantism, nothing inspired about them, just scholastic legalism and pharaseic prelest.

In orthodoxy, i have seen people, just by looking at them my heart gets filled with bliss and heavenly joy for no apperent reason, so i ask myself in my mind, is this person a heavenly angel?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 02:13:30 AM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

Agree, leadership is not the problem, infact as christians we are called to obey God appointed authority, and respect our elders.

Here is where the problem come, i personally cant see the vatican church as inspired, i see it as earthly schoolman philosiphizing about things, so how am i supposed to trust people who dress up like bishops, but act and speak like secular people ? Furthurmore wild groups like sspx and sedes remind me too much of protestantism, nothing inspired about them, just scholastic legalism and pharaseic prelest.

In orthodoxy, i have seen people, just by looking at them my heart gets filled with bliss and heavenly joy for no apperent reason, so i ask myself in my mind, is this person a heavenly angel?

Personal and deep. I like it. Thank you for sharing.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 02:34:15 AM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.
Wisdom. One of the best posts I have read here.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 07:43:01 AM
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 10, 2017, 10:37:28 AM
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 10:48:17 AM
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.
Yes. While of course PJ26 is right that there are dogmatic statements about the papacy which are binding for a Catholic,
those are not central to our faith.

The Nicene creed is.
Holy mass is.
Trying to keep HIS commandments is.

Honestly, I do not think about the bishop of Rome for weeks at all, unless someone in some forum comments on AL,
infallibility or similar, or he is in the news. In a normal Catholic´s spiritual life, it does not play any role.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 11:01:32 AM
You don't consider dogmatic statements which are binding for Catholics central to your faith?  :o Why make dogmatic statements to begin with then and say they're binding if each individual is free to pick and choose what they will and will not accept?  What's the point?

Can I be Catholic, I mean really Catholic in substance, not just going to mass on Sunday and self-identifying as a Catholic, if I reject something like papal infallibility?  Catholicism itself doesn't think so because you're anathematized if you do.

I understand the idea that maybe the papacy isn't central to how each Catholic lives out their daily lives, but that doesn't exonerate them from their obligation to know what their religion believes and teaches.  Everyone should know what their particular religion believes and teaches and if there is a teaching or teachings that your particular religion says are dogmatic, binding, divinely inspired and you after sufficient prayer and reflection say, "nope, that's wrong."  You really need to consider if you are in the right place...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 11:17:17 AM
You don't consider dogmatic statements which are binding for Catholics central to your faith?  :o Why make dogmatic statements to begin with then and say they're binding if each individual is free to pick and choose what they will and will not accept?  What's the point?

This is just polemics on your part.
Of course, papal primacy is not the most central thing in the faith.
Yes, it is important and binding, but for example, it is not mentioned in the creed or
in an average Sunday mass.
At no point I was saying that an individual was free to pick and choose as desired.
I just want to stress the fact that the Catholic church does not define itself primarily through dogmatic statements
about papal primacy - though others try to make it appear so - but as the una sancta catholica et apostolica ecclesia, some 2000 years old.

I understand the idea that maybe the papacy isn't central to how each Catholic lives out their daily lives, but that doesn't exonerate them from their obligation to know what their religion believes and teaches.  Everyone should know what their particular religion believes and teaches and if there is a teaching or teachings that your particular religion says are dogmatic, binding, divinely inspired and you after sufficient prayer and reflection say, "nope, that's wrong."  You really need to consider if you are in the right place...
I am sorry that the successor of Peter proved a stumbling block for you personally.  Intellectually, I am ready to admit that the extent of papal primacy and infallibility is a more challenging
tenet for me, too. But again, as you say, it is not as if you can pick and choose what you like/dislike. It is binary, one must make a decision.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 10, 2017, 11:23:36 AM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.

But I'm not talking about analytical thinking about dogmatic formulae.  The very attachment Catholics have to the Pope (not this Pope or that Pope, not "cult of personality", but "the Pope" as "Holy Father") is something that goes beyond doctrinal formulae but at the same time is rooted in them.  It's not for nothing that the papacy is often the biggest hurdle converts from RC to Orthodoxy have to overcome.  It's not just a matter of dealing with Pastor Aeternus, it's an entire conception of what it means for the Church to be Church--dogmatic but also sociocultural, popular, "spiritual", etc.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 11:30:00 AM
@ Lepanto

No. I'm sorry but no.  It's not polemics.  Dogma is dogma.  Trying to say X dogma is more important than Y dogma is, in the end, useless.  If I deny the Creed, I'm not Catholic.  If I deny papal infallibility, I'm not Catholic.  That's it.  The fact that the Son is of the same substance as the Father does not affect my daily decision making any more than whether or not the Theotokos was immaculately conceived.  But I'm required to believe the first just as much as I am required to believe the second.  Those are the rules Catholicism itself has established.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 11:36:40 AM
@ Lepanto

No. I'm sorry but no.  It's not polemics.  Dogma is dogma.  Trying to say X dogma is more important than Y dogma is, in the end, useless.  If I deny the Creed, I'm not Catholic.  If I deny papal infallibility, I'm not Catholic.  That's it.

No. It is a sin, but it does not make you non-Catholic. The sacrament of baptism changes you irreversibly, Character indelebilis.
We do not let you go as easy as that, this is not church teaching.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
Regarding papal infallibility, Pastor Aeternus clearly anathematizes the individual Catholic who rejects the teaching.  How do you define "anathematize?"  Here's one definition:

"a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine"

So, are Martin Luther and Henry VIII still Catholic for you based on their Catholic baptism?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 10, 2017, 12:16:27 PM
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 10, 2017, 12:53:58 PM
Once you reject papal infallibility it becomes a pretty central thing to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church makes too great a claim to let it go lightly. It's hard to go about going to mass and living your faith when the whole church crumbles on this one point. As long as you believe it, it's not a big deal. Imagine if you stopped believing that the priest has the ability to absolve, would you still be able to go to confession?

I stayed until it seemed ridiculous to me. If the Pope were to lead billions to hell with false teachings, spread all error, and turn the church into the largest force against anything good, the gates of hell will still not have prevailed so long as he didn't speak infallibly. Any heresy the Pope spouts is quickly pointed out as only being intended for a certain audience so that it is not considered intended for the universal church. If he were to intend it universally, then it would be dismissed as not having the proper wording. There is always a way out. So why did God bother to grant infallibility as a protection when it doesn't protect?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 10, 2017, 12:58:19 PM
Once you reject papal infallibility it becomes a pretty central thing to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church makes too great a claim to let it go lightly. It's hard to go about going to mass and living your faith when the whole church crumbles on this one point

Since the doctrine has been "clarified" and backpedaled to the point that it is meaningless, I'm not sure it really could be held to have such a central place. At this point not even Catholic traditionalists seem to actually believe in Papal infallibility as it was defined at Vatican I.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 01:03:36 PM
So, you ultimately have to either accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, and that the Roman Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, or that it is not.

I don't think this is true. In fact, I know it isn't true, as I know millions of Catholics don't think this way, including friends of mine. There is much, much more to the apostolic faith than feuds over leadership and legitimacy.

I can't say whether or not millions of Catholics do not "accept that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ", but I do know that, at the end of the day, definite submission to Rome, however nominal, is a sine qua non of Catholicism even for those millions of Catholics, and that submission is based on a theology of the Pope as, among other things, "Vicar of Christ". 

You don't need to be a theologian to do theological things.  Submission to Rome is a theological thing.

Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous.

But I'm not talking about analytical thinking about dogmatic formulae.  The very attachment Catholics have to the Pope (not this Pope or that Pope, not "cult of personality", but "the Pope" as "Holy Father") is something that goes beyond doctrinal formulae but at the same time is rooted in them.  It's not for nothing that the papacy is often the biggest hurdle converts from RC to Orthodoxy have to overcome.  It's not just a matter of dealing with Pastor Aeternus, it's an entire conception of what it means for the Church to be Church--dogmatic but also sociocultural, popular, "spiritual", etc.

This is true.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 01:05:49 PM
You don't consider dogmatic statements which are binding for Catholics central to your faith?  :o Why make dogmatic statements to begin with then and say they're binding if each individual is free to pick and choose what they will and will not accept?  What's the point?

This is just polemics on your part.
Of course, papal primacy is not the most central thing in the faith.
Yes, it is important and binding, but for example, it is not mentioned in the creed or
in an average Sunday mass.
At no point I was saying that an individual was free to pick and choose as desired.
I just want to stress the fact that the Catholic church does not define itself primarily through dogmatic statements
about papal primacy - though others try to make it appear so - but as the una sancta catholica et apostolica ecclesia, some 2000 years old.

I understand the idea that maybe the papacy isn't central to how each Catholic lives out their daily lives, but that doesn't exonerate them from their obligation to know what their religion believes and teaches.  Everyone should know what their particular religion believes and teaches and if there is a teaching or teachings that your particular religion says are dogmatic, binding, divinely inspired and you after sufficient prayer and reflection say, "nope, that's wrong."  You really need to consider if you are in the right place...
I am sorry that the successor of Peter proved a stumbling block for you personally.  Intellectually, I am ready to admit that the extent of papal primacy and infallibility is a more challenging
tenet for me, too. But again, as you say, it is not as if you can pick and choose what you like/dislike. It is binary, one must make a decision.

::) Why not address the issues rather than lay on vague guilt?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpo on July 10, 2017, 01:07:19 PM
Once you reject papal infallibility it becomes a pretty central thing to the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church makes too great a claim to let it go lightly. It's hard to go about going to mass and living your faith when the whole church crumbles on this one point

Since the doctrine has been "clarified" and backpedaled to the point that it is meaningless, I'm not sure it really could be held to have such a central place. At this point not even Catholic traditionalists seem to actually believe in Papal infallibility as it was defined at Vatican I.

How so? The definition of Vatican I seems to be fairly restricted. The Vatican II and ordinary magisterium on the other hand is IIRC fairly all-inclusive.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 10, 2017, 01:15:17 PM
Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition. For instance, the Pope must consult with the rest of the Church before decreeing anything, or the Pope cannot contradict ecumenical councils.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 01:17:58 PM
How so? The definition of Vatican I seems to be fairly restricted. ...

I think it's just such a terrible idea it could never be "restricted" or processed enough to make it a good one.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 01:52:19 PM
"Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition."

But who are those Catholics and what authority do they have?  Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, are crystal clear.  The teaching on papal infallibility is itself infallible and if you don't believe it you're anathema.  No one and no thing from a Catholic point of view, at least the official Catholic point of view, can change that.  How certain Catholics try to get around that teaching or justify ignoring it is really beside the point.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 02:10:14 PM
Regarding papal infallibility, Pastor Aeternus clearly anathematizes the individual Catholic who rejects the teaching.  How do you define "anathematize?"  Here's one definition:

"a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person or denouncing a doctrine"

So, are Martin Luther and Henry VIII still Catholic for you based on their Catholic baptism?
Technically, yes. Excommunication cannot erase the baptism mark. Please read up what excommunication really means. Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 02:10:48 PM
Just for fun here are quotes from the Code of Canon Law straight off the Vatican's website:

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacredmagisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholicfaith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops.

Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2H.HTM

While all of this is relevant to the present discussion, I think the definition of heresy is especially so:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 02:14:16 PM
"Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians."

I never said Martin Luther or Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.  You seemed to state that once Catholic always Catholic if one was baptized Catholic.  Both of these individuals were baptized Catholics and were subsequently excommunicated as heretics.  In your mind are they still Catholic?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 02:37:50 PM
"Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians."

I never said Martin Luther or Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.  You seemed to state that once Catholic always Catholic if one was baptized Catholic.  Both of these individuals were baptized Catholics and were subsequently excommunicated as heretics.  In your mind are they still Catholic?
Exactly how do you define Catholic? Of course, you can separate yourself in various ways from the body of Christ, become an atheist or Buddhist and try to violate the ten commandments as often as possible. Will it cut you off from divine grace administered via the sacraments? - Surely. Will it erase what happened in baptism? -No. There is no formal way to leave the church in that sense as far as I know. Dr. Luther could have made a good confession and be again in full communion with the church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 02:49:37 PM
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.

Thank you so much confusedRC.  Your experience is so similar to my. I am glad you can overcome the psychological fear. If my follow my heart I will be EO. But the fear of damnation just so strong. I will pray for you also.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 02:50:19 PM
@Lepanto

I define Catholic as someone who believes what Catholicism believes and teaches.  Not someone who is a heretic or an excommunicant, not one who just calls themselves Catholic and goes to mass on Sunday to check off a box or out of habit or because they were born Catholic, etc while saying homosexual marriage is Ok and Jesus isn't really present in the Blessed Sacrament.  That's my definition.  You are free to disagree obviously. 

I'm interested in your response to the question I posed in my previous post regarding the definition of heresy, assuming you didn't respond while I was typing this:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 02:50:21 PM
"Neither Dr. Luther nor Henry VIII ceased to be Christians."

I never said Martin Luther or Henry VIII ceased to be Christians.  You seemed to state that once Catholic always Catholic if one was baptized Catholic.  Both of these individuals were baptized Catholics and were subsequently excommunicated as heretics.  In your mind are they still Catholic?
Exactly how do you define Catholic? Of course, you can separate yourself in various ways from the body of Christ, become an atheist or Buddhist and try to violate the ten commandments as often as possible. Will it cut you off from divine grace administered via the sacraments? - Surely. Will it erase what happened in baptism? -No. There is no formal way to leave the church in that sense as far as I know. Dr. Luther could have made a good confession and be again in full communion with the church.

And then be strangled (as being again a good Catholic) before burnt. But this might be a digression.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 02:52:31 PM
"Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition."

But who are those Catholics and what authority do they have?  Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, are crystal clear.  The teaching on papal infallibility is itself infallible and if you don't believe it you're anathema.  No one and no thing from a Catholic point of view, at least the official Catholic point of view, can change that.  How certain Catholics try to get around that teaching or justify ignoring it is really beside the point.

When I was in high school I thought papacy is just for administration purpose. He is just the CEO of the Catholic Church. Even when I went to UGCC parish few years ago I thought the same way.

Wow, so I have been anathema by Roman Church for so many year.  :o
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 02:53:48 PM
And a heretic  ;)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 02:57:02 PM
And a heretic  ;)

There are some Eastern Rite Catholics think Papacy is just for administration purpose. According to Vatican they are in big trouble now.  :o
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 03:00:22 PM
"Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition."

But who are those Catholics and what authority do they have?  Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus, are crystal clear.  The teaching on papal infallibility is itself infallible and if you don't believe it you're anathema.  No one and no thing from a Catholic point of view, at least the official Catholic point of view, can change that.  How certain Catholics try to get around that teaching or justify ignoring it is really beside the point.

When I was in high school I thought papacy is just for administration purpose. He is just the CEO of the Catholic Church. Even when I went to UGCC parish few years ago I thought the same way.

Wow, so I have been anathema by Roman Church for so many year.  :o

I think that's valid. I've met very, very few Catholics in real life who would give the Papal see the divine honors it supposedly demands, altho most of them do love the Pope. Usually it's an attitude of "God bless that dear mortal man for what he's trying to do for us" rather than caring much for his teaching.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 03:01:27 PM
@Lepanto

I define Catholic as someone who believes what Catholicism believes and teaches.  Not someone who is a heretic or an excommunicant, not one who just calls themselves Catholic and goes to mass on Sunday to check off a box or out of habit or because they were born Catholic, etc while saying homosexual marriage is Ok and Jesus isn't really present in the Blessed Sacrament.  That's my definition.  You are free to disagree obviously. 

I'm interested in your response to the question I posed in my previous post regarding the definition of heresy, assuming you didn't respond while I was typing this:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
I don't yet see what you are getting at. But yes, you quoted the CIC, I will not contradict it. If you obstinately doubt a truth which must be believed - does make you a heretic imho. But really, I am the wrong person, not an apologist, not well versed in canon law.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 03:02:57 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 03:06:30 PM
@Lepanto

I define Catholic as someone who believes what Catholicism believes and teaches.  Not someone who is a heretic or an excommunicant, not one who just calls themselves Catholic and goes to mass on Sunday to check off a box or out of habit or because they were born Catholic, etc while saying homosexual marriage is Ok and Jesus isn't really present in the Blessed Sacrament.  That's my definition.  You are free to disagree obviously. 

I'm interested in your response to the question I posed in my previous post regarding the definition of heresy, assuming you didn't respond while I was typing this:

"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith"

If I am a Catholic and I reject the teaching of an ecumenical council, in this case Vatican I, a teaching which Catholicism says is divinely inspired and thus infallible - am I not a heretic according to this definition (@Lepanto or anyone else)?

Notice too, it's not just "obstinate denial" it's also "obstinate doubt."
I don't yet see what you are getting at. But yes, you quoted the CIC, I will not contradict it. If you obstinately doubt a truth which must be believed - does make you a heretic imho. But really, I am the wrong person, not an apologist, not well versed in canon law.

Your priests must love you.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 03:08:54 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 03:15:53 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 03:21:26 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 03:23:18 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Nice dig. ... Yet not an echo of Rome, for a change.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 03:27:19 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF members might tell me don't go to either SSPX or Orthodox church.

At this in OrthodoxChristianty.net there are no personal attacks so far. The environment is more friendly. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 10, 2017, 03:29:13 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF members might tell me don't go to either SSPX or Orthodox church.

At this in OrthodoxChristianty.net there are no personal attacks so far. The environment is more friendly.
With this, I can agree wholeheartedly. CAF is a bit ... erm ... aggressive .
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 03:31:49 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 03:36:09 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time.

Well, then, they aren't the same as the priest teaching you that the EO are the same as RC, are they? Knights of Columbus types do their own thing, Catholic-wise, altho they consider themselves the real Catholics.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 03:57:08 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time.

Well, then, they aren't the same as the priest teaching you that the EO are the same as RC, are they? Knights of Columbus types do their own thing, Catholic-wise, altho they consider themselves the real Catholics.
The Knights of Columbus types of Catholics are screamers. Also, one of  the Catholic monk I know who live in Canada is very upset when he found out I became EO few years ago.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 04:17:59 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.

Mm. Yes well. I think there are two different things here, based on the little I know. First, while it's flattering they say we don't teach heresy. However, as I said before, I think it's a diplomatic plum, like a father telling a teenager to come back home he's forgiven him. Grandiosely paternalistic, I think, but I don't know. But, second, the "beginning to scream" is not over doctrine but loyalty. One can get away with much, and even pretend to be disloyal to Rome personally, but to act on disloyalty brings the hammer down. Again, not a matter of doctrine or truth but of subjugation. Yet I have to ask if these "screamers" are particularly conservative?
"Screamers" are conservative Catholics. The type of people who talks about apparitions and private revelations all the time.

Well, then, they aren't the same as the priest teaching you that the EO are the same as RC, are they? Knights of Columbus types do their own thing, Catholic-wise, altho they consider themselves the real Catholics.
The Knights of Columbus types of Catholics are screamers. Also, one of  the Catholic monk I know who live in Canada is very upset when he found out I became EO few years ago.

I'm sorry. Once you know what is right, you must find friends and acquaintances who will support you in your growth in faith. I am not saying to abandon your old friends or discount their advice out-of-hand. But I am saying to add faithful Orthodox to those you interact with -- it's quite important.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 04:51:51 PM
"I'm sorry. Once you know what is right, you must find friends and acquaintances who will support you in your growth in faith. I am not saying to abandon your old friends or discount their advice out-of-hand. But I am saying to add faithful Orthodox to those you interact with -- it's quite important."

I totally agree with you. Also, having a good spiritual father is also important.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 05:16:50 PM
@Lepanto

My point is that you stated that some dogmas like those contained in the Creed are more important than other dogmas like those contained in Pastor Aeternus.  However, as you recognize, I'm just as much of a heretic, according to the Code of Canon Law, if I deny the Divine substance of the Son as if I deny papal infallibility.  That's Catholicism.

Also, Canon 1364 states:

"an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication"

So to say the teaching on the papacy is somehow less important, less dogmatic doesn't really make sense when the result is the same - the individual who denies papal infallibility or even doubts it is a heretic and an excommunicant.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 10, 2017, 05:51:48 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

A forum with a lot of converts?  Sure.  A forum full of converts?  That's a bit too much.  Many of us had the faith centuries before it ever got to Germany, and kept it in better condition too. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 10, 2017, 05:53:04 PM
"even doubts it is a heretic and an excommunicant. "

Seriously??? So when people have doubts on certain Catholic Doctrines are mortal sins??? :o

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: PJ26 on July 10, 2017, 06:11:42 PM
A heretic is defined in the Code as one not only who obstinately denies but includes those who obstinately doubt.  Like Lepanto, I'm not a canon lawyer, but all the canons listed in #133 are pretty strict and straightforward.  Sure, post-V2 novus ordo Catholicism isn't going to enforce them, but that's what the law says...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 10, 2017, 06:25:33 PM
A heretic is defined in the Code as one not only who obstinately denies but includes those who obstinately doubt.  Like Lepanto, I'm not a canon lawyer, but all the canons listed in #133 are pretty strict and straightforward.  Sure, post-V2 novus ordo Catholicism isn't going to enforce them, but that's what the law says...

Vatican II: Pastoral Constitution -- Rome introduces economia*. Catholicism immediately implodes. Somethin' ain't right with that church.


____
* Granted, the office of casuistry was already granting economia to people who were important enough.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on July 10, 2017, 09:14:33 PM
According to Vatican EO and OO are not in perfect communion with RC. RC stated that EO and OO are not heretic.

However, EO and OO deny papal infallibility and papal supremacy. However, Vatican never declared that EO and OO are heretic.

That is why I am so confuse. Sometime I think RC theologians like to play with words, and created confusion.

Also, Hans Kung has problem with papal infallibility, but he still has priestly faculty and  hasn't been excommunicated yet.

When you say "are not heretic," do you mean specifically that we don't teach heresy?

I'm sure a lot of this is the Roman church designing diplomacy by which we could be brought back under the yoke. In other words, that it's directed at us. Yes, it might reveal something to a Catholic that would be some cause for genuine concern, but it's not intended to alter a Catholic's understanding of his church.

Since I was a teenager, I keep hearing the RC priests or religious education teachers saying that RC and EO/OO teach the same things. RC priests and religious education teachers keep saying it is ok for RCs to go to Orthodox priests for communion and confession in case of emergency.
However, when a RC decides to embrace Orthodoxy, RC priests and lay people begin to scream. They said it is schism. It is a mortal sin. You will go to hell for that.

Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Anthony, remember this is a forum full of converts. All your going to hear here is an echo.

Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF members might tell me don't go to either SSPX or Orthodox church.

At this in OrthodoxChristianty.net there are no personal attacks so far. The environment is more friendly.
Well, yes, because they believe the Catholic church is the true one, and SSPX is acting without the permission of the Pope so is in schism. They might say find a diocesean Latin mass, or one of the orders loyal to Rome that specialize in the old rite like the Fraternal Society of St. Peter ir the Institute of Christ the King Soverign Priest. Or if you like Eastern spirituality find an Eastern Catholic parish.

I'm not sure I would do any better, since I would say since you've been chrismated and the Orthodox Church is the true one, go to the Orthodox parish when you can, or read the Epistle and Gospels and the prayers in the prayer book if you can't.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on July 10, 2017, 10:03:55 PM
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.
Yes. While of course PJ26 is right that there are dogmatic statements about the papacy which are binding for a Catholic,
those are not central to our faith.

The Nicene creed is.
Holy mass is.
Trying to keep HIS commandments is

Honestly, I do not think about the bishop of Rome for weeks at all, unless someone in some forum comments on AL,
infallibility or similar, or he is in the news. In a normal Catholic´s spiritual life, it does not play any role.
Er, the definition of dogmatic is that it's doctrine that's central to your faith, so those papal dogmas are pretty central, even if a normal Catholic doesn't know that their dogma is that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as one Pope declared.

But, aside from that, the bishops of Rome haven't had the Creed right since 1014. Of course the normal Catholic, or Orthodox, might not know what relevance the filioque addition has, so it's more fun to bicker over the powers of the Pope of Old Rome :P
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 10, 2017, 10:59:14 PM
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.

Thank you so much confusedRC.  Your experience is so similar to my. I am glad you can overcome the psychological fear. If my follow my heart I will be EO. But the fear of damnation just so strong. I will pray for you also.

In this thread, you have received some tremendous advice.

For me, I was able to get over the "hurdle" by being a bit more simple: I referred to Matthew 7:15-20 (by their fruits you shall know them). As I bounced around, looking for answers, I realized that everywhere I looked (in the RC), I was getting "thornbushes" instead of "fruit."

Take the SSPX for example: they know the Vatican is wrong, yet they want to join them anyway. They're saying "we know the Vatican is in error, but we want to be a part of them, just with our own rules." It makes no sense to me. It's the same thing with the sedevacantist position; they are waiting for a legit pope to be elected, but according to them, there are no valid cardinals or bishops. So, they will never get the pope that they are waiting for.

I'm a doctoral student and I normally enjoy research and bending the mind. But, the reasons that the SSPX and sedevacantists give in their defense defy logic and are void of humility.

The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 10, 2017, 11:15:36 PM
Yes, I know. If I posted this thread in Catholic answer forum I will get lot of attacks. I know the environment of Catholic answer.
CAF has a hair trigger and has banned me several times for merely venting my doubts or pointing out the public moral failings of bishops.  ???
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 10, 2017, 11:16:51 PM
Sometime I think there are too many hypocrites in RC.
Too many?  No, there's still room for you and I.  ;)   Expect it to be no different in Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 10, 2017, 11:24:42 PM
Anytime the subject comes up, I see Catholics adding further qualifications, some of which directly contradict the Vatican I definition. For instance, the Pope must consult with the rest of the Church before decreeing anything, or the Pope cannot contradict ecumenical councils.
Therefore they either do not know their faith or they do not believe it.  For papal supremacy is "supreme, full and universal, but also immediate" (Pastor aeternus, Chap. 3).  And "there is no other authority to which the Roman Pontiff must juridically answer for his exercise of the gift he has received" (ibid).
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 11, 2017, 02:48:36 AM
"Many people abide in Rome for the same reasons we remain in our faith. The cult of personality around the Pope gets a lot of attention, but many Catholics just want to be Christians. Personally, I think reducing a church to dogma on which she differs from other churches is fairly artificial and unhelpful. Analytical thinking doesn't do that much of what's necessary to feed the nous."

That sounds really good but it ignores the fact that Catholicism has made dogmatic statements regarding the papacy including at the the last two supposedly ecumenical councils which are infallible and binding on the faithful to the point where denying them results in one being anethamatized.  Those Catholics who just want to be Christians have an obligation to know what their religion teaches and if they reject those teachings they really should think long and hard about whether or not Catholicism is the true faith after all.

I think Porter's point is not that everything is a-ok in the world of Catholic dogma but that, in the lived reality for many Catholics, these official pronouncements are not the bread and butter. In the areas of central importance for them they have a lot of commonality with us. Wagging our fingers at them and saying, "You should know better" isn't necessarily the best place to start in approaching them. Generally speaking, the objection "But your books say x!" can obscure more than illuminate in engaging with any religious community.
Yes. While of course PJ26 is right that there are dogmatic statements about the papacy which are binding for a Catholic,
those are not central to our faith.

The Nicene creed is.
Holy mass is.
Trying to keep HIS commandments is

Honestly, I do not think about the bishop of Rome for weeks at all, unless someone in some forum comments on AL,
infallibility or similar, or he is in the news. In a normal Catholic´s spiritual life, it does not play any role.
Er, the definition of dogmatic is that it's doctrine that's central to your faith, so those papal dogmas are pretty central, even if a normal Catholic doesn't know that their dogma is that it is necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as one Pope declared.

But, aside from that, the bishops of Rome haven't had the Creed right since 1014. Of course the normal Catholic, or Orthodox, might not know what relevance the filioque addition has, so it's more fun to bicker over the powers of the Pope of Old Rome :P

Any Orthodox-Catholic discussion would not be the real thing without mentioning the filioque at least once.
I have never seen a pope let alone talked to one, I hardly ever think about papal dogmas unless I am on OC.net.
On the other hand, I think about the trinity every day. Now, as you say, denial of either of the two could potentially make me a heretic just the same.
But our faith is not really about avoiding to become a heretic, as much as you want to bend the discussion in that direction.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 11, 2017, 04:21:33 AM
To the OP:

I just want you to know that I'm praying for you. As you can see from my forum name, I was once RC. I went down a similar path: went to Novus Ordo Masses, then to Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) at parish churches, then to an SSPX parish, and finally to an independent sedevacantist parish.

It sounds like you want to be EO, but you are worried about what the RC teaches about leaving the church. I sometimes get the same way, but then I remember that they are in error.

Thank you so much confusedRC.  Your experience is so similar to my. I am glad you can overcome the psychological fear. If my follow my heart I will be EO. But the fear of damnation just so strong. I will pray for you also.

In this thread, you have received some tremendous advice.

For me, I was able to get over the "hurdle" by being a bit more simple: I referred to Matthew 7:15-20 (by their fruits you shall know them). As I bounced around, looking for answers, I realized that everywhere I looked (in the RC), I was getting "thornbushes" instead of "fruit."

Take the SSPX for example: they know the Vatican is wrong, yet they want to join them anyway. They're saying "we know the Vatican is in error, but we want to be a part of them, just with our own rules." It makes no sense to me. It's the same thing with the sedevacantist position; they are waiting for a legit pope to be elected, but according to them, there are no valid cardinals or bishops. So, they will never get the pope that they are waiting for.

I'm a doctoral student and I normally enjoy research and bending the mind. But, the reasons that the SSPX and sedevacantists give in their defense defy logic and are void of humility.

The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS.

SSPX they criticize Rome publicly, however, they do many secrete discussions with Rome many times. They don't want to accept Vatican II but still want to be part of RC. SSPX position of recognize and resist  position doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 11, 2017, 04:29:10 AM
"The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS."

Totally agree. This forum compare with other religious discussion forum, OC.net is much more friendly, and tolerance. The people I talk to in EO are usually kind and charitable.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 11, 2017, 09:51:32 AM
"The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS."

Totally agree. This forum compare with other religious discussion forum, OC.net is much more friendly, and tolerance. The people I talk to in EO are usually kind and charitable.

Here's a book to show you the fruits of the EO church:

https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Saints-Stories-Archimandrite-Shevkunov-ebook/dp/B00AZM6MM8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499780935&sr=8-1&keywords=everyday+saints

It is an amazing story of present day priests and monks in Russia. I have read it once and I will be reading it again.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 11, 2017, 02:28:57 PM
"The fruits are in the Eastern Orthodox church. You feel it when you are on this forum and when you are at an EO Church. So, I'm confident that you will get past the RC's teaching on EENS."

Totally agree. This forum compare with other religious discussion forum, OC.net is much more friendly, and tolerance. The people I talk to in EO are usually kind and charitable.

Here's a book to show you the fruits of the EO church:

https://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Saints-Stories-Archimandrite-Shevkunov-ebook/dp/B00AZM6MM8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499780935&sr=8-1&keywords=everyday+saints

It is an amazing story of present day priests and monks in Russia. I have read it once and I will be reading it again.


Thank you so much for sharing.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 11, 2017, 04:18:02 PM
Question about filioque .

Didn't filioque  add in the creed in Spain before the Great Schism?
In 500-600 filioque already added in Spain and the East has no objection?

Can anyone review the history of filioque for me? Because I am confuse.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 12, 2017, 02:45:59 AM
Question about filioque .

Didn't filioque  add in the creed in Spain before the Great Schism?
In 500-600 filioque already added in Spain and the East has no objection?

Can anyone review the history of filioque for me? Because I am confuse.
This has been discussed hundreds of times on this forum already:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=search (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=search)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 13, 2017, 06:37:46 PM
Listen to the following true story.

In Romania orthodox romanian fought war with people of catholic rite and orthodox won. They wanted to build a Church . Orthodox wanted an orthodox Church and Catholics wanted a Catholic Church.
Catholics said lets debate but orthodox said no, lets ask God. So they decided to have Catholics make Holy Water and Orthodox make Holy Water. They decided to close the Holy water in a Church for 3 days and then which Holy water is crisp and good this is the true Church.
So they made Holy Water nad put in a Church for 3 days and prayed to God to show the true Church . After 3 days they open the Holy water and orthodox Holy water was crisp and Catholic was foul smelling bad. So Orthodox is true Church.

How can you be punished from moving to true Church from Catholic? I rather heard you can be punished moving from orthodox to Catholics.

If you want to go to the Best, go to an Russian Orthodox Church because in Legend of the white cowl the angel said the Russian Orthodox Chuch will remain true until the end.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 13, 2017, 06:47:09 PM
The story is recorded in the book "Letopisetul Tarii Moldovei" and the winner of the battle was Michael the Great.
Even today if you take Catholic Holy Water and Orthodox Holy Water, Orthodox Holy Water remains crisp for years and Catholic Holy Water remains bad soon. Because they changed the process of making Holy Water they need to add salt. Take Catholic and Orthodox Holy Water and compare.
They changed a lot of things.

So Orthodox is true Church. Moving to true Church is a b;lessing. Moving from true Church may be a sin and you may end in Hell. So, once orthodox always orthodox since there is no better and to go to worse may get punished.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 13, 2017, 07:00:19 PM
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 13, 2017, 09:30:52 PM
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.

It's hard to beat 70,000 people watching the sun "dance" in Fatima, Portugal on 13 October 1917.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 13, 2017, 11:15:30 PM
Listen, miracles happen in all religions that believe in God minus islam for some reason. They happen even in Old Testament even if they are not Christians.

My miracles are miracles in which God is purpotedly asked which Church is true and responds. So yes, my miracles beat the sund dancing mirac;le because was directed to which Church is true.

See Sun dancing shows Catholics pray to God, Holy water miracle shows Orthodox are true Church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 13, 2017, 11:18:49 PM
Listen, miracles happen in all religions that believe in God minus islam for some reason. They happen even in Old Testament even if they are not Christians.

My miracles are miracles in which God is purpotedly asked which Church is true and responds. So yes, my miracles beat the sund dancing mirac;le because was directed to which Church is true.

See Sun dancing shows Catholics pray to God, Holy water miracle shows Orthodox are true Church.

The sun-dancing miracle confirmed people in their belief in the Fatima messages, which explicitly include papal primacy, purgatory, Immaculate Conception, and other RC distinctives.  Pretending that all it proves is that RCs worship God while your holy water competitions prove Orthodoxy is the true Church is wishful thinking, to put it politely.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 13, 2017, 11:35:03 PM
Can you bring details on the part of messages that show what you are saying?

Why would Catholic Holy water need salt? Why would it not remain crisp like orthodox?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 13, 2017, 11:44:59 PM
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.

 :) I heard this story before. It happened in France.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 13, 2017, 11:47:42 PM
I took the holy water from Orthodox Church, it last for long time. Didn't get bad. Holy Water from Orthodox Church really is a miracle.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 14, 2017, 12:06:42 AM
There are also the annual miracles of Orthodox Church:
Holy Light http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.htm, Jordan river moving backward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKXarmqrcL4&t=13s and cloud on Mount Tabor that comes yearly https://www.google.com/search?q=cloud+tabor+miracle&oq=cloud+tabor++miracle&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.10802j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8.
When catholics wanted to receive Holy Light the Holy Light did not come to them and come to orthodox showing Orthodox is true Church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 12:48:55 AM
For me, I rely on the Sign of the Prophet Jonah to confirm the Church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ialmisry on July 14, 2017, 12:59:36 AM
There are also the annual miracles of Orthodox Church:
Holy Light http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.htm, Jordan river moving backward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKXarmqrcL4&t=13s and cloud on Mount Tabor that comes yearly https://www.google.com/search?q=cloud+tabor+miracle&oq=cloud+tabor++miracle&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.10802j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8.
When catholics wanted to receive Holy Light the Holy Light did not come to them and come to orthodox showing Orthodox is true Church.
Someone once said only an evil and perverse generation seeks a sign  :police:
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ialmisry on July 14, 2017, 01:04:05 AM
I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?
Stop the SSPX stuff. It is not helpful nor healthy.

The cure is more Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ialmisry on July 14, 2017, 01:05:58 AM
Personally I feel more comfortable and feel more peace in Orthodox church.

When I have conversation with Orthodox priests,the Orthodox priests are so calm and humble. They have a lot of patience.

I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?


There is your answer.  Sacred scripture says God is Love.   If reading SSPX agitprop makes you nervour or upset, and you feel at peace in Orthodoxy, the choice should be obvious. 

I don't understand why you are still even wrestling with this question.

It is not quite that easy, obviously. The mere fact that he is having doubts does not indicate that Orthodoxy is right (for him).
No, it just proves the scars of Ultramontanism do not heal quickly.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 14, 2017, 02:27:09 AM
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.

It's hard to beat 70,000 people watching the sun "dance" in Fatima, Portugal on 13 October 1917.
If that wasn't a hallucination but a real event, it should have been visible from the whole world (or half the planet).

I remember a story but I don't know if I can retell it right, it was something like this:

There was an orthodox elder on a ship, and when the ship was passing by some land people began to see something amazing, miracolous and extra ordinary, it was on a massive scale, so they were all in awe because of what they were seeing, only the elder understood that this was a deception of the devil, so he crossed himself and the falsehood disappeared from his eyesight.

I don't know if Fatima is true or not, but I am very suspicious about it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:47:10 AM
^ There's an old saying, Not all that glitters is gold.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 14, 2017, 03:30:21 AM
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.

It's hard to beat 70,000 people watching the sun "dance" in Fatima, Portugal on 13 October 1917.
If that wasn't a hallucination but a real event, it should have been visible from the whole world (or half the planet).

I remember a story but I don't know if I can retell it right, it was something like this:

There was an orthodox elder on a ship, and when the ship was passing by some land people began to see something amazing, miracolous and extra ordinary, it was on a massive scale, so they were all in awe because of what they were seeing, only the elder understood that this was a deception of the devil, so he crossed himself and the falsehood disappeared from his eyesight.

I don't know if Fatima is true or not, but I am very suspicious about it.

I think Fatima is one of the reason that I am struggling with my faith so much. I don't know the event of Fatima might prove that Roman Catholic Church is the true Christian Church...
However, some of the messages of Fatima I feel they are kind of strange....
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 14, 2017, 03:41:44 AM
I think it was impossible that 70,000 people got hallucinated. However, as Vanhyo said: " If that wasn't a hallucination but a real event, it should have been visible from the whole world (or half the planet)." I am so confuse about Fatima...

The event of Fatima made me struggle more about my faith.

The world we live now has so much confusion....apparition, private revelation....Even in RC, apparition and private revelation can not be the dogma... but I don't know why they are promoting those apparition and private revelation???
I really wish God will show me the true signs of real Church soon...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 14, 2017, 03:54:08 AM
A lot of Catholics that go to mass regularly think that Roman Catholic Church is the true church that free from errors. They don't see any problems or errors inside the Catholic Church.

However, SSPX said that the post Vatican II Roman Catholic Church is in serious error. But they still want to be part of Roman Catholic Church. They want to have the regular canonical status...

And the sedevacantists believe that after Vatican II that all the Popes are anti-Popes...

In Orthodox side, there are  Old Calendarists, Kiev patriarchate, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, Macedonian Orthodox church...

Wow, there is just so much confusion...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 14, 2017, 03:59:21 AM
Personally I feel more comfortable and feel more peace in Orthodox church.

When I have conversation with Orthodox priests,the Orthodox priests are so calm and humble. They have a lot of patience.

I think it is very scary. Just by watching some SSPX, Sedevacantist and Michael Voris videos made me very scared.

And the first thing pop into my mind is to contact SSPX priest to talk to.

Is it really from God?


There is your answer.  Sacred scripture says God is Love.   If reading SSPX agitprop makes you nervour or upset, and you feel at peace in Orthodoxy, the choice should be obvious. 

I don't understand why you are still even wrestling with this question.

It is not quite that easy, obviously. The mere fact that he is having doubts does not indicate that Orthodoxy is right (for him).
No, it just proves the scars of Ultramontanism do not heal quickly.

It is true...Ultramontanism...absolutely obedience... just very difficult to get over ...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 14, 2017, 04:27:03 AM
I just realised typing from my tablet causes the letter "I" when alone to be a big one, if I don't explicitly tell it to use a small one, silly bugs.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 05:46:47 AM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 14, 2017, 08:14:01 AM
There is no confusion if you read Legend of White Cowl where an angel said that Russian Orthodox Church will be true until the end and that The Fourth Rome will be no more.

Miracles do hasppen even after Jesus came and even in Bible we see people with gifts.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 14, 2017, 09:16:43 AM
There is no confusion if you read Legend of White Cowl where an angel said that Russian Orthodox Church will be true until the end and that The Fourth Rome will be no more.

Since the Legend of the White Cowl rests on the spurious Donation of Constantine, it falls apart from the beginning.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: hecma925 on July 14, 2017, 09:47:14 AM
There is no confusion if you read Legend of White Cowl where an angel said that Russian Orthodox Church will be true until the end and that The Fourth Rome will be no more.

Since the Legend of the White Cowl rests on the spurious Donation of Constantine, it falls apart from the beginning.

We can all agree that the white cowl is a pretty sweet hat.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 14, 2017, 10:03:31 AM
I think it was impossible that 70,000 people got hallucinated. However, as Vanhyo said: " If that wasn't a hallucination but a real event, it should have been visible from the whole world (or half the planet)." I am so confuse about Fatima...

The event of Fatima made me struggle more about my faith.
There are reports of the miracle of the sun as far as Italy and Belgium.

Still, not even the Roman Church posits belief on the apparitions in Fatima as an item of faith.  So, do not struggle with it, for it is not part of the Catholic faith.  Save your energies to struggle with those difficult items of the Catholic faith; Fatima is just a sentimental distraction.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2017, 11:09:04 AM
Can you bring details on the part of messages that show what you are saying?

Why would Catholic Holy water need salt? Why would it not remain crisp like orthodox?

It's a symbolic act taken from the Bible:

Quote
II (IV) Kings 2

19 Now the men of the city said to Eli′sha, “Behold, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord sees; but the water is bad, and the land is unfruitful.” 20 He said, “Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it.” So they brought it to him. 21 Then he went to the spring of water and threw salt in it, and said, “Thus says the Lord, I have made this water wholesome; henceforth neither death nor miscarriage shall come from it.” 22 So the water has been wholesome to this day, according to the word which Eli′sha spoke.

Why do the Orthodox plunge the Holy Cross into the water when sanctifying it? 

Quote
Exodus 15

22 Then Moses led Israel onward from the Red Sea, and they went into the wilderness of Shur; they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. 23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink the water of Marah because it was bitter; therefore it was named Marah. 24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?” 25 And he cried to the Lord; and the Lord showed him a tree, and he threw it into the water, and the water became sweet.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2017, 11:10:32 AM
Someone once said only an evil and perverse generation seeks a sign  :police:

For me, I rely on the Sign of the Prophet Jonah to confirm the Church.

+1
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2017, 11:21:37 AM
Another story. A protestant woman enters Catholic Church and pray to Saint Francisc to show the true Church. She is shown a vision of Saint Serafim of sarov and understands Orthodox is the true Church.

Ask God and find the answer.

It's hard to beat 70,000 people watching the sun "dance" in Fatima, Portugal on 13 October 1917.
If that wasn't a hallucination but a real event, it should have been visible from the whole world (or half the planet).

As someone else said above, it was seen in other places in Western Europe, not just in that one town. 

In any case, your reasoning is not good.  Natural phenomena like solar eclipses are not "visible from the whole world (or half the planet)", yet they are "real events".  The risen Christ appeared to hundreds of people, even though he did not reveal himself openly to all as risen from the dead--I don't think you'd say that was just an apostolic hallucination.     

Quote
I remember a story but I don't know if I can retell it right, it was something like this:

There was an orthodox elder on a ship, and when the ship was passing by some land people began to see something amazing, miracolous and extra ordinary, it was on a massive scale, so they were all in awe because of what they were seeing, only the elder understood that this was a deception of the devil, so he crossed himself and the falsehood disappeared from his eyesight.

I don't know if Fatima is true or not, but I am very suspicious about it.

That's understandable.  You are suspicious of things that happen outside your Church.  But be suspicious in a less irresponsible way. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 11:37:03 AM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: hecma925 on July 14, 2017, 12:23:52 PM
Why do the Orthodox plunge the Holy Cross into the water when sanctifying it? 

It makes it tastier.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2017, 01:25:45 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 01:50:49 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 14, 2017, 01:54:18 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 02:00:41 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Your post contains a Freudian error. Find it?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2017, 02:03:21 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

To be fair, you call it propaganda (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12456a.htm).
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 14, 2017, 02:06:05 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Your post contains a Freudian error. Find it?

Yikes. History and reality is not of note but Freud's psychopathy is? I think you need to re-access your priorities.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 02:11:56 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Your post contains a Freudian error. Find it?

Yikes. History and reality is not of note but Freud's psychopathy is? I think you need to re-access your priorities.
You mean re-assess? This is not history but your version of it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:15:58 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 14, 2017, 02:17:26 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Your post contains a Freudian error. Find it?

Yikes. History and reality is not of note but Freud's psychopathy is? I think you need to re-access your priorities.
You mean re-assess? This is not history but your version of it.

LOL You're beyond hope if you're a post-modernist post-truth type. "Access" is what spell-check did, apparently it got it wrong.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Your post contains a Freudian error. Find it?

Yikes. History and reality is not of note but Freud's psychopathy is? I think you need to re-access your priorities.
You mean re-assess? This is not history but your version of it.

LOL You're beyond hope if you're a post-modernist post-truth type. "Access" is what spell-check did, apparently it got it wrong.
I apologize. Trying to debate on the basis of spelling mistakes is childish. This polemics too often get the better of me.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 14, 2017, 02:23:33 PM
I just have a question. After the great-schism didn't the Orthodox Church suffered from the other schism? For example: Old Believer, Old Calendarist, Kiev patriarchate, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Montenegrin Orthodox Church....
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:31:42 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Not bad, the conversational style, the benevolent wording, the Western rite option for the trad Catholics.
Might actually trick a few, unfortunately.
If Catholics write similar documents it is called propaganda and proselytism.

The reality of Rome crumbling and Orthodoxy rising, coupled with the reality of five Roman Patriarchates, of which the Roman Church split from the other four are not propaganda but demonstrable.
Your post contains a Freudian error. Find it?

Yikes. History and reality is not of note but Freud's psychopathy is? I think you need to re-access your priorities.
You mean re-assess? This is not history but your version of it.

LOL You're beyond hope if you're a post-modernist post-truth type. "Access" is what spell-check did, apparently it got it wrong.
I apologize. Trying to debate on the basis of spelling mistakes is childish. This polemics too often get the better of me.

It happens to us all. I think the servers were not blessed properly, or something.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 02:33:23 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
I just have a question. After the great-schism didn't the Orthodox Church suffered from the other schism? For example: Old Believer, Old Calendarist, Kiev patriarchate, Macedonian Orthodox Church, Montenegrin Orthodox Church....

Old Believer is a good example. The last three are political issues. The Genuine Church folks -- I don't know; it's pretty recent. But, yes, Orthodoxy suffers its schisms.

On the other hand, Roman Catholicism has been veritably torn apart again and again post-1054, and even pretending the Reformation no longer counts, small schisms persist today.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21

So you're recanting?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 02:38:30 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21

So you're recanting?
No. Read carefully: It is a list of errors to be condemned.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: WPM on July 14, 2017, 02:40:45 PM
Or Psychiatry calling sight and hearing hallucinations and voices.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:42:14 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21

So you're recanting?
No. Read carefully: It is a list of errors to be condemned.

Gotcha. Well, it's a good thing the rhetoric of Lord Cardinals and General Inquisitors are chaff. On the surface, it's bizarre that a church which pronounces the infallibility of its magisterium would condemn those who say "revelation" did not end with the Bible. On the other hand, sophistries that have no real purpose but to daze opposition on behalf of the Vicar of Christ are a thousand-year-old tradition and shouldn't surprise anyone.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 02:53:29 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21

So you're recanting?
No. Read carefully: It is a list of errors to be condemned.

Gotcha. Well, it's a good thing the rhetoric of Lord Cardinals and General Inquisitors are chaff. On the surface, it's bizarre that a church which pronounces the infallibility of its magisterium would condemn those who say "revelation" did not end with the Bible. On the other hand, sophistries that have no real purpose but to daze opposition on behalf of the Vicar of Christ are a thousand-year-old tradition and shouldn't surprise anyone.
Obviously, there is a lot of difference between (public) revelation and the magisterium. This has nothing to do with sophistry. Really, don't try to hook into each and every statement, even if there is nothing much to criticize.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 02:55:31 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21

So you're recanting?
No. Read carefully: It is a list of errors to be condemned.

Gotcha. Well, it's a good thing the rhetoric of Lord Cardinals and General Inquisitors are chaff. On the surface, it's bizarre that a church which pronounces the infallibility of its magisterium would condemn those who say "revelation" did not end with the Bible. On the other hand, sophistries that have no real purpose but to daze opposition on behalf of the Vicar of Christ are a thousand-year-old tradition and shouldn't surprise anyone.
Obviously, there is a lot of difference between (public) revelation and the magisterium. This has nothing to do with sophistry. Really, don't try to hook into each and every statement, even if there is nothing much to criticize.

If the assertion is untrue, and it affects the Church and believers, then it is hardly "nothing much." Fascinating that you yourself can specifically see the conflict is between revelation and the Pope, yet you can't see that as a problem.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 14, 2017, 03:05:53 PM
To all those who think that private revelations or miracles could be used as a means to determine which church is the church: Forget it. Fatima does not prove that Catholicism is right, the Jerusalem Easter fire or some holy water freshness competition does not prove that Orthodoxy is right. This is all nonsense. I am not saying miracles do not happen - they certainly do - but revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. Period. Fatima and Easter fires are completely irrelevant. It is beneficial to remember Deuteronomy 6,16.

Now here's an interesting claim.

For the record, I believe it's an untrue claim. The Apostles were given a special mission, it can't be denied, and possibly combinations of gifts unique to themselves, I don't know, but they were hardly alone in an access of the Holy Spirit. The teaching that Christ's promises were for the Twelve alone is popular in Protestant circles but often leads to preterism and other heresies.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm)
#21

So you're recanting?
No. Read carefully: It is a list of errors to be condemned.

Gotcha. Well, it's a good thing the rhetoric of Lord Cardinals and General Inquisitors are chaff. On the surface, it's bizarre that a church which pronounces the infallibility of its magisterium would condemn those who say "revelation" did not end with the Bible. On the other hand, sophistries that have no real purpose but to daze opposition on behalf of the Vicar of Christ are a thousand-year-old tradition and shouldn't surprise anyone.
Obviously, there is a lot of difference between (public) revelation and the magisterium. This has nothing to do with sophistry. Really, don't try to hook into each and every statement, even if there is nothing much to criticize.

If the assertion is untrue, and it affects the Church and believers, then it is hardly "nothing much." Fascinating that you yourself can specifically see the conflict is between revelation and the Pope, yet you can't see that as a problem.
Fascinating how you can turn my "difference between revelation and magisterium" into a "conflict between revelation and the pope". There's no such conflict.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 14, 2017, 03:25:19 PM
Then there's no need for such a dogma.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 14, 2017, 06:58:49 PM
Would you like a Church to pray for you hundreds of years? read here http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71921.new.html#new
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: WPM on July 14, 2017, 07:18:28 PM
Mainly because of following Christ all these years.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 15, 2017, 05:40:05 AM
Quote
As someone else said above, it was seen in other places in Western Europe, not just in that one town.

In any case, your reasoning is not good.  Natural phenomena like solar eclipses are not "visible from the whole world (or half the planet)", yet they are "real events"
My reasoning is: If the sun was really dancing, coming closer to earth and moving around all the while emitting very strange lights it should be visible and confirmed by atleast by half the planet, not by limited people in few limited places.

So i remain highly suspicious.

But i tell you what, if Russian Orthodox Church converts to the pope, this will change my mind to more optimistic approach but till then, i am highly suspicious of this.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 15, 2017, 09:05:06 AM
Also in scriptrure says that the gates of the Hell will not overcome the Church so we need to find the Church started in JERUSALEM by Apostles, where is it today because it exists see because gates of hell did not overcome it.

So who can trace from Apostles Church , Catholics or Orthodox.

I let a cathoilic present the history of his Church but as an orthodox this is the History of my Church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Patriarch_of_Jerusalem

As you see it was started in jerusalem by the 12 Apostles until today, it is the Church that gates of Hell could not overcome it.

I want to see the same from catholics but it is impossible.

There you are with biblical church, eastern orthodoxy that gates of hell could not overcome it.

Be aware thAt Bible said if you make a hole for somebody else you may fall into it. That is if you are misleading somebody you may be mislead in the end by somebody else so you may end in the wrong church that instead of life offers death and you may be in trouble.

Did gates of hell overcome Catholic Church?
Well the most important position, the master of money belongs to a non christian.



St Mary appeared in Egypt too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgForYvEbNQ Does it mean Egypt orthodox Church is the true one?

No, miracles happen in different religions that pray to God.

Every time God is asked what is the true Church the answer is invariably Eastern orthodox Church.

I believe and trust in God. If other people trust in somebody else is their business.

Orthodox and Catholics asked GOD to be told which Church is true by making the true Church Holy water crisp . Orthodox Holy water was made crisp, Catholic HolY Water was made foul.

That is enough to me.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 15, 2017, 10:29:40 AM
Quote
As someone else said above, it was seen in other places in Western Europe, not just in that one town.

In any case, your reasoning is not good.  Natural phenomena like solar eclipses are not "visible from the whole world (or half the planet)", yet they are "real events"
My reasoning is: If the sun was really dancing, coming closer to earth and moving around all the while emitting very strange lights it should be visible and confirmed by atleast by half the planet, not by limited people in few limited places.

So i remain highly suspicious.

But i tell you what, if Russian Orthodox Church converts to the pope, this will change my mind to more optimistic approach but till then, i am highly suspicious of this.



Some Tradition Catholics believe that if the Pope consecrates Russia to Immaculate Heart of Mary, Russia will accept Catholicism. That is mean the  Patriarch of Moscow will submit to Pope of Rome.
However, according to Sister Lucia of Fatima, the Russia’s prophecy was fulfilled.
But many traditional Catholics do not believe that.
They blame Russia for all the problems in the West, like homosexual, destruction of family, abortion, and  Pornography...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2017, 11:46:17 AM
Quote
As someone else said above, it was seen in other places in Western Europe, not just in that one town.

In any case, your reasoning is not good.  Natural phenomena like solar eclipses are not "visible from the whole world (or half the planet)", yet they are "real events"
My reasoning is: If the sun was really dancing, coming closer to earth and moving around all the while emitting very strange lights it should be visible and confirmed by atleast by half the planet, not by limited people in few limited places.

So i remain highly suspicious.

But i tell you what, if Russian Orthodox Church converts to the pope, this will change my mind to more optimistic approach but till then, i am highly suspicious of this.

I'm not trying to convince you of Fatima.  I'm pointing out that your reasoning is flawed. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2017, 11:47:03 AM
Also in scriptrure says that the gates of the Hell will not overcome the Church so we need to find the Church started in JERUSALEM by Apostles, where is it today because it exists see because gates of hell did not overcome it.

So who can trace from Apostles Church , Catholics or Orthodox.

I let a cathoilic present the history of his Church but as an orthodox this is the History of my Church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Patriarch_of_Jerusalem

As you see it was started in jerusalem by the 12 Apostles until today, it is the Church that gates of Hell could not overcome it.

I want to see the same from catholics but it is impossible.

There you are with biblical church, eastern orthodoxy that gates of hell could not overcome it.

Be aware thAt Bible said if you make a hole for somebody else you may fall into it. That is if you are misleading somebody you may be mislead in the end by somebody else so you may end in the wrong church that instead of life offers death and you may be in trouble.

Did gates of hell overcome Catholic Church?
Well the most important position, the master of money belongs to a non christian.



St Mary appeared in Egypt too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgForYvEbNQ Does it mean Egypt orthodox Church is the true one?

No, miracles happen in different religions that pray to God.

Every time God is asked what is the true Church the answer is invariably Eastern orthodox Church.

I believe and trust in God. If other people trust in somebody else is their business.

Orthodox and Catholics asked GOD to be told which Church is true by making the true Church Holy water crisp . Orthodox Holy water was made crisp, Catholic HolY Water was made foul.

That is enough to me.

Saints Holy Water and Youtube videos, have mercy on us!
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 15, 2017, 11:48:27 AM
Quote
As someone else said above, it was seen in other places in Western Europe, not just in that one town.

In any case, your reasoning is not good.  Natural phenomena like solar eclipses are not "visible from the whole world (or half the planet)", yet they are "real events"
My reasoning is: If the sun was really dancing, coming closer to earth and moving around all the while emitting very strange lights it should be visible and confirmed by atleast by half the planet, not by limited people in few limited places.

So i remain highly suspicious.

But i tell you what, if Russian Orthodox Church converts to the pope, this will change my mind to more optimistic approach but till then, i am highly suspicious of this.



Some Tradition Catholics believe that if the Pope consecrates Russia to Immaculate Heart of Mary, Russia will accept Catholicism. That is mean the  Patriarch of Moscow will submit to Pope of Rome.
However, according to Sister Lucia of Fatima, the Russia’s prophecy was fulfilled.
But many traditional Catholics do not believe that.
They blame Russia for all the problems in the West, like homosexual, destruction of family, abortion, and  Pornography...
Anthony you should not listen to anyone who doesn't believe in the miracles of Fatima, or who reject the Catholic faith of St Francis of Assisi and St Thomas Aquinas  etc, there are a lot of lost souls here, for now stay at the sspx unless your priest starts talking favourably of Vatican 2 or starts talking liberal...if they ever make an agreement with Rome then you can no longer attend them either...convert to the traditional Catholic faith to save your soul
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Asteriktos on July 15, 2017, 11:56:56 AM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 15, 2017, 12:04:26 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 15, 2017, 12:15:02 PM
Quote
Anthony you should not listen to anyone who doesn't believe in the miracles of Fatima, or who reject the Catholic faith
Quote
St Thomas Aquinas
You mean the guy who in his "theology" demoted the Lord, the Holy Spirit to the grace of the Father and the Son and then began to philosophize that grace is created ?

Quote
St Francis of Assisi
On the prelest of francis of asisi see this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra17xm0yn3E)

francis of asisi acted very much in the spirit of the times, like a rockstar guru, a substitution for Christ, the vatican II popes act in likewise manner, not like true patriarchs but like rockstar-gurus, promoting the utopian earthly kingdom of the antichrist.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Asteriktos on July 15, 2017, 12:22:24 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 15, 2017, 12:26:15 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
I'm telling you to be saved you must convert to the Catholic faith, don't concern yourself with a Zuckerberg or this lost soul here who insulted St Francis of Assisi ....put more effort towards your salvation son...I don't want you to burn 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 15, 2017, 12:28:48 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
I'm telling you to be saved you must convert to the Catholic faith, don't concern yourself with a Zuckerberg or this lost soul here who insulted St Francis of Assisi ....put more effort towards your salvation son...I don't want you to burn

This is a great act. Entertaining persona. To bad it's a little blasphemous.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 15, 2017, 12:47:04 PM
Orthodox and Catholics asked GOD to be told which Church is true by making the true Church Holy water crisp . Orthodox Holy water was made crisp, Catholic HolY Water was made foul.

That is enough to me.

If God and sevdevacantist and pope disagree I trust God therefore I believe Orthodoxy is true.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 15, 2017, 12:49:51 PM
sedevacantist needs to ask God not people which Church is true.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 15, 2017, 12:53:58 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
I'm telling you to be saved you must convert to the Catholic faith, don't concern yourself with a Zuckerberg or this lost soul here who insulted St Francis of Assisi ....put more effort towards your salvation son...I don't want you to burn

This is a great act. Entertaining persona. To bad it's a little blasphemous.
blasphemous because I want to save souls? I spoke to an orthodox priest the other day,talked about divorce, he said the bible states you can divorce for adultery...I said no,you can separate for adultery but can not remarry unless your spouse dies....just 1 example of how the orthodox are wrong and the Catholic correct....anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 15, 2017, 12:57:16 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
I'm telling you to be saved you must convert to the Catholic faith, don't concern yourself with a Zuckerberg or this lost soul here who insulted St Francis of Assisi ....put more effort towards your salvation son...I don't want you to burn

This is a great act. Entertaining persona. To bad it's a little blasphemous.
blasphemous because I want to save souls? I spoke to an orthodox priest the other day,talked about divorce, he said the bible states you can divorce for adultery...I said no,you can separate for adultery but can not remarry unless your spouse dies....just 1 example of how the orthodox are wrong and the Catholic correct....anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view

Again, this is entertaining. However, playing you are God is going to come to an abrupt halt once you face Him who is really God. Better you submit now.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 15, 2017, 01:11:11 PM
Quote
I spoke to an orthodox priest the other day,talked about divorce, he said the bible states you can divorce for adultery...I said no,you can separate for adultery but can not remarry unless your spouse dies....just 1 example of how the orthodox are wrong and the Catholic correct....anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view
Well, you are correct on this, a pharisaic type of correct.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Asteriktos on July 15, 2017, 01:13:34 PM
anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 18:18)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 15, 2017, 01:14:20 PM
The problem is that sedevacantists will not be able to tell you when and how the seat will be taken again. It's a dead-end street without perspective. Nothing short of the second coming could help their case. They know that - that is why millennialism and generally panic mode is so commonly found.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 15, 2017, 01:16:07 PM
The problem is that sedevacantists will not be able to tell you when and how the seat will be taken again. It's a dead-end street without perspective. Nothing short of the second coming will help their case. They know that - that is why millennialism and generally panic mode is so commonly found.

The position of Sedevacantists doesn't make sense for me either.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2017, 01:35:13 PM
But i tell you what, if Russian Orthodox Church converts to the pope, this will change my mind to more optimistic approach but till then, i am highly suspicious of this.

First there was papal infallibility, then conciliar infallibility, and then Biblical infallibility.  But now we have Russianfallibility! 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 16, 2017, 12:50:37 AM
Anthony you should not listen to anyone who doesn't believe in the miracles of Fatima, or who reject the Catholic faith of St Francis of Assisi and St Thomas Aquinas  etc
Fatima was a private revelation, so no Catholic has to believe it.  And why would you reject those who embrace the faith of St. Gregory the Great, St. Benedict or St. Augustine, like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Thomas Aquinas did?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 16, 2017, 12:53:47 AM
The miracles of Fatima aren't even persuading the Portuguese and French, how could they persuade us? I've never understood this logic.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 16, 2017, 07:06:22 AM
So what is the individual Orthodox Christians opinions?

About the miracle of sun , it is impossible that 70,000 people got hilarious...

However, In Fatima apparition, the Mother of God did not act like the Theotokos in scripture at all...

I know even RC said it is not dogma, not require to believe....However, I am very curious is Fatima apparition from God?

 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: WPM on July 16, 2017, 08:05:27 AM
Its the little white communion wafer the priest says while holding it over the cup.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 16, 2017, 12:01:39 PM
So what is the individual Orthodox Christians opinions?

About the miracle of sun , it is impossible that 70,000 people got hilarious...

However, In Fatima apparition, the Mother of God did not act like the Theotokos in scripture at all...

I know even RC said it is not dogma, not require to believe....However, I am very curious is Fatima apparition from God?

 

No idea.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 02:48:43 PM
anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 18:18)
you are not making sense,I'm asking for scripture that supports the remarrying as is done in the orthodox church...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 02:50:48 PM
The miracles of Fatima aren't even persuading the Portuguese and French, how could they persuade us? I've never understood this logic.
don't understand what you are babbling about, obviously there's a difference between 1917 people of Portugal (many were persuaded) to people of today (mostly modernists ) too busy looking at their I phone...have you done any research on this?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
The problem is that sedevacantists will not be able to tell you when and how the seat will be taken again. It's a dead-end street without perspective. Nothing short of the second coming will help their case. They know that - that is why millennialism and generally panic mode is so commonly found.

The position of Sedevacantists doesn't make sense for me either.
if it doesn't make sense it's because you haven't looked into it in depth...the opposite of the sede position is to believe Francis is Catholic (he's not) ,that he's not a heretic (he is) ..the teaching of the Church is a heretic can not be a true pope.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 02:54:32 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
I'm telling you to be saved you must convert to the Catholic faith, don't concern yourself with a Zuckerberg or this lost soul here who insulted St Francis of Assisi ....put more effort towards your salvation son...I don't want you to burn

This is a great act. Entertaining persona. To bad it's a little blasphemous.
blasphemous because I want to save souls? I spoke to an orthodox priest the other day,talked about divorce, he said the bible states you can divorce for adultery...I said no,you can separate for adultery but can not remarry unless your spouse dies....just 1 example of how the orthodox are wrong and the Catholic correct....anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view

Again, this is entertaining. However, playing you are God is going to come to an abrupt halt once you face Him who is really God. Better you submit now.
now I am playing God? are you ok? trying to save souls is playing God...stating I believe God has revealed to us the true faith is blasphemous?...stop being ridiculous
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 16, 2017, 03:01:28 PM
Quote
..the teaching of the Church is a heretic can not be a true pope.
The pre vatican II Rome teaches:
- Rome will always preach the correct faith
- that you have to be in communion with the pope in order to call yourself catholic
- the general idea of papal infallibility is that he cannot fail preaching correct so you should always be looking at Rome for a guide.

if it doesn't make sense it's because you haven't looked into it in depth...the opposite of the sede position is to believe Francis is Catholic (he's not)
Hate you be a combo breaker but there hasn't been an Orthodox Pope since 1054, this is when they broke the canons of the Church and were officially kicked out.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 03:32:39 PM
Quote
..the teaching of the Church is a heretic can not be a true pope.
The pre vatican II Rome teaches:
- Rome will always preach the correct faith
- that you have to be in communion with the pope in order to call yourself catholic
- the general idea of papal infallibility is that he cannot fail preaching correct so you should always be looking at Rome for a guide.

if it doesn't make sense it's because you haven't looked into it in depth...the opposite of the sede position is to believe Francis is Catholic (he's not)
Hate you be a combo breaker but there hasn't been an Orthodox Pope since 1054, this is when they broke the canons of the Church and were officially kicked out.
not sure why I should bother debating with you on this subject as you are not even a catholic

St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church

and obviously 1054 is when the east broke off from the true Church, it's never too late to convert
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 16, 2017, 03:37:01 PM
Quote
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
Can you give me an example of how do you know when a pope is explicitly a heretic ?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 05:50:13 PM
Quote
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
Can you give me an example of how do you know when a pope is explicitly a heretic ?

The Catholic Church teaches that there is only one true religion and the rest are false. The Catholic Church teaches that pagan religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Voodooism, etc.), which worship various “gods,” actually worship demons, since all the gods of the heathen are the devils.


Psalms 95:5- “For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils…”

1 Cor. 10:20- “But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.”

St. Paul says that when the pagans worship their gods they are worshipping devils, and he doesn’t want you to be in communion with devils. The Vatican II sect, however, endorses these false religions which commit idolatry and worship devils. This is unspeakably evil; it is a total rejection of the teaching of the Gospel and the Catholic Church, and it is condemned as apostasy by Pope Pius XI in Mortalium Animos.




At the notorious interfaith “ecumenical prayer gatherings” – the most well-known occurring at Assisi in 1986 and 2002 – religious leaders from all the major false religions were invited to pray alongside John Paul II at a “Catholic” church




Each religion was invited to offer its own prayer for peace – blasphemous prayers, for instance, as the Hindu prayer said: “Peace be on all gods.” But their gods are devils, as we saw above, so peace was being prayed for all the devils (who created these false religions) at the Vatican-sponsored World Day of Prayer for Peace. The Vatican II religion wants you to be in communion with devils.




Most heresy and apostasy is manifested by deed, not word. People manifest their heresy and apostasy by attending the synagogue or by worshipping at the mosque or by joining the Protestants in their worship at their churches.


St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. I-II, Q. 103., A. 4: “All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists. Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declSo, when John Paul II and now Benedict XVI (with high-ranking members of the Vatican II sect) attend the mosque, the Buddhist Temple, the Lutheran temple and the synagogue they are manifesting their apostasy by their deed. They are manifesting by their deed that they accept these false religions, and that these people don’t need to become Catholic for salvation. When Benedict XVI entered the synagogue and took active part in a Jewish worship service on August 19, 2005, he was manifesting his apostasy (his acceptance of the false Jewish religion) by his deed. That is why St. Thomas Aquinas taught that if anyone were to worship at the tomb of Mohammed he would be an apostate. Such an action alone would show that he does not have the Catholic Faith, and that he accepts the false Islamic religion.aration, he sins mortally.”

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “… if anyone were to… worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”






The “Orthodox” Schismatics reject the Papacy, Papal Infallibility and approximately the last 13 dogmatic councils of the Catholic Church. But the Vatican II teaches that the Eastern “Orthodox” don’t need to believe in the Papacy and accept the Catholic Faith for salvation. The Vatican II sect issued the official Balamand Statement with the Orthodox (see below), which declared that they have no obligation to convert to the Catholic Faith for salvation. John Paul II approved of this agreement and taught the same many times.




Vatican II Sect’s Balamand Statement with the “Orthodox,” #’s 14-15, 1993: “According to the words of Pope John Paul II, the ecumenical endeavor of the sister Churches of East and West, grounded in dialogue and prayer, is the search for perfect and total communion which is neither absorption nor fusion but a meeting in truth and love (cf. Slavorum Apostoli, 27).15. While the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of their conscience remain secure, in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to ensure their salvation.”



This statement just boldly declared that schismatics don’t need to accept the Catholic Faith! And below we see John Paul II sitting on equal level chairs with the schismatic Patriarch Teoctist. This action is meant to indicate that the schismatic position, according to which all bishops are equal in the Church and the Bishop of Rome doesn’t possess universal jurisdiction, is accepted by John Paul II. Below we also see John Paul II signing the common declaration of faith with Teoctist, in which they both denounced trying to convert each other. This couldn’t be more formally heretical or schismatical. It is a total rejection of the dogmatic teaching of Vatican I on the necessity to accept the Papacy for salvation, and a bold rejection of the dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation. (Benedict XVI teaches the same as the Balamand Statement and John Paul II, as one can see in the Heresies of Benedict XVI file above.)



Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 16, 2017, 06:54:29 PM
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
What a saint said, even one who was declared a Doctor or even is considered a Father of the Church, is not necessarily dogmatic, unless a pope says so.  Indeed, Pastor Eternus states that no one can judge the pope, including about whether he's a heretic or not.  This is the kind of circular reasoning that truly bothers me.


PS: changed "on the contrary" to "indeed".
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 16, 2017, 06:56:07 PM
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
What a saint said, even one who was declared a Doctor or even is considered a Father of the Church, is not necessarily dogmatic, unless a pope says so.  On the contrary, Pastor Eternus states that no one can judge the pope, including about whether he's a heretic or not.  This is the kind of circular reasoning that truly bothers me.

And the "ipso facto" is circular reasoning as well.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 16, 2017, 07:21:15 PM
Yeah well I think Hammerin Smith and Jones N. Mann have proved pretty conclusively that trad cathoholicism has already fallen prey to the NWO elites.
..just because some people who profess to be traditional catholics start talking nonsense and liberal,or want to have an agreement with apostate Rome..doesn't equate to traditional Catholicism being in error or prove the faith to be wrong or fallen to the NWO...don't confuse the people to the true faith...not sure if that was what you were alluding to

Hmm... if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, look up Mr. Belvedere, who I believe is still working for Bob Eucker, he really knows more about this stuff than I do.
I'm telling you to be saved you must convert to the Catholic faith, don't concern yourself with a Zuckerberg or this lost soul here who insulted St Francis of Assisi ....put more effort towards your salvation son...I don't want you to burn

This is a great act. Entertaining persona. To bad it's a little blasphemous.
blasphemous because I want to save souls? I spoke to an orthodox priest the other day,talked about divorce, he said the bible states you can divorce for adultery...I said no,you can separate for adultery but can not remarry unless your spouse dies....just 1 example of how the orthodox are wrong and the Catholic correct....anybody here feel free to give me scripture that you think supports the orthodox view

Orthodox have the Catholic faith, Papists don't. Especially Papists who aren't even in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 16, 2017, 07:24:46 PM
The miracles of Fatima aren't even persuading the Portuguese and French, how could they persuade us? I've never understood this logic.
don't understand what you are babbling about, obviously there's a difference between 1917 people of Portugal (many were persuaded) to people of today (mostly modernists ) too busy looking at their I phone...have you done any research on this?

LOL So, we're supposed to be persuaded of a miracle that took place in 1917 as well? You don't think these things through very well.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 16, 2017, 08:04:41 PM
AN APPEAL TO TRADITIONAL ROMAN CATHOLICS FROM AN ORTHODOX CATHOLIC PRIEST (http://orthochristian.com/105123.html)
Wow! 😲
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: WPM on July 16, 2017, 08:26:13 PM
I think you have to take the time to understand the history of the Catholic Popes.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 10:26:12 PM
The miracles of Fatima aren't even persuading the Portuguese and French, how could they persuade us? I've never understood this logic.
don't understand what you are babbling about, obviously there's a difference between 1917 people of Portugal (many were persuaded) to people of today (mostly modernists ) too busy looking at their I phone...have you done any research on this?

LOL So, we're supposed to be persuaded of a miracle that took place in 1917 as well? You don't think these things through very well.
you're making fun of  a miracle that happened in 1917, that's too far in the past for you ? you're not the brightest light on the Christmas tree are you
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 16, 2017, 10:32:22 PM
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
What a saint said, even one who was declared a Doctor or even is considered a Father of the Church, is not necessarily dogmatic, unless a pope says so.  Indeed, Pastor Eternus states that no one can judge the pope, including about whether he's a heretic or not.  This is the kind of circular reasoning that truly bothers me.


PS: changed "on the contrary" to "indeed".
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

 The declaratory sentence which follows an automatic excommunication is merely a legal recognition of something which already exists.  If this were not true, the automatic excommunication would be meaningless.   
Canon 2314, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “All apostates from the Christian faith and each and every heretic or schismatic: 1) Incur ipso facto [by that very fact] excommunication…”12 
The excommunicated person is already severed from the Church.  Most heretics are known to be heretics without a trial or declaratory sentence, and must be denounced as such. 
Pope Pius VI, Auctorem fidei, Aug. 28, 1794: “47.  Likewise, the proposition which teaches that it is necessary, according to the natural and divine laws, for either excommunication or for suspension, that a personal examination should precede, and that, therefore, sentences called ‘ipso facto’ have no other force than that of a serious threat without any actual effect” – false, rash, pernicious, injurious to the power of the Church, erroneous.13   
As we see here, the Catholic Church teaches that formal processes and judgments are not necessary for ipso facto (by that very fact) excommunications to take effect.  They are very

often, as in the case of the heretic Martin Luther, formal recognitions of the ipso facto excommunication that has already occurred.  This should be obvious to a Catholic;
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 16, 2017, 11:16:15 PM
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
What a saint said, even one who was declared a Doctor or even is considered a Father of the Church, is not necessarily dogmatic, unless a pope says so.  Indeed, Pastor Eternus states that no one can judge the pope, including about whether he's a heretic or not.  This is the kind of circular reasoning that truly bothers me.


PS: changed "on the contrary" to "indeed".

Wow, no one can judge the pope. So we even don't know which is pope heretic or not. What happen if Pope is preaching heresy? As long as pope is not speaking in ex cathedra, he can preach whatever he wants and people have to be silence. :o
No one can judge the pope, than SSPX priests and supporters are in serious trouble. :o
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 16, 2017, 11:19:20 PM
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church
What a saint said, even one who was declared a Doctor or even is considered a Father of the Church, is not necessarily dogmatic, unless a pope says so.  Indeed, Pastor Eternus states that no one can judge the pope, including about whether he's a heretic or not.  This is the kind of circular reasoning that truly bothers me.


PS: changed "on the contrary" to "indeed".

Wow, no one can judge the pope. So we even don't know which is pope heretic or not. What happen if Pope is preaching heresy? As long as pope is not speaking in ex cathedra, he can preach whatever he wants and people have to be silence. :o
No one can judge the pope, than SSPX priests and supporters are in serious trouble. :o

Yeah, it's a problem. Absolute monarchy is a terrible idea, moreso when it comes to spiritual matters.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 16, 2017, 11:24:44 PM
Wow, no one can judge the pope. So we even don't know which is pope heretic or not. What happen if Pope is preaching heresy? As long as pope is not speaking in ex cathedra, he can preach whatever he wants and people have to be silence. :o
Many Roman Catholic apologists point out that VI actually limited the scope of papal infallibility, but, in my reckoning, all miss the point that VI was not only about this, but also proclaiming papal absolutism. In other words, according to Pastor Eternus, one can conclude that the pope can only exercise his infallibility in specific situations, but he is free to otherwise exercise heresy without questioning.  ???

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 16, 2017, 11:25:07 PM
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

So many post-schism Orthodox Saints like Saint Seraphim of Sarov, St. Xenia, St. John the Wonderworker are in heaven. They prove Pope Innocent III's statement is wrong.
There are Orthodox Saints who are former Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic like, St. Alexis Toth, St. Maxim Sandovich, St. Procopius of Ustyug and St. Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague .

 

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 16, 2017, 11:26:49 PM
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

So many post-schism Orthodox Saints like Saint Seraphim of Sarov, St. Xenia, St. John the Wonderworker are in heaven. They prove Pope Innocent III's statement is wrong.
There are Orthodox Saints who are former Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic like, St. Alexis Toth, St. Maxim Sandovich, St. Procopius of Ustyug and St. Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague .

 

On the other hand, you have to interpret his statement a very particular way to get the meaning it is being used for here. Another meaning, which I find equally if not more likely to be accurate to the author's intent, would be to say that no heretic will be saved.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 16, 2017, 11:35:16 PM
Problem is so many RC apologists they make RC looked like a Court or Empire. RC apologists and people in Catholic Answers forum they like to judge people, sometime even the personal attack. They don't find any God's love from RC apologists and members of CAF.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 16, 2017, 11:45:24 PM
Problem is so many RC apologists they make RC looked like a Court or Empire. RC apologists and people in Catholic Answers forum they like to judge people, sometime even the personal attack. They don't find any God's love from RC apologists and members of CAF.
It amazes me that many CA apologists, many convert from the fringes of Protestantism, are so adept at proof texting, from the Bible to Canon Law, from Tradition to Encyclicals.  They transform the argument of authority into dogma from a fallacy.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on July 17, 2017, 12:11:24 AM
Wow, no one can judge the pope. So we even don't know which is pope heretic or not. What happen if Pope is preaching heresy? As long as pope is not speaking in ex cathedra, he can preach whatever he wants and people have to be silence. :o
Many Roman Catholic apologists point out that VI actually limited the scope of papal infallibility, but, in my reckoning, all miss the point that VI was not only about this, but also proclaiming papal absolutism. In other words, according to Pastor Eternus, one can conclude that the pope can only exercise his infallibility in specific situations, but he is free to otherwise exercise heresy without questioning.  ???


Not sure you're quite getting it. The position shared by sedevacantists and Orthodox alike is that if he openly preaches a previously condemned heresy (in sedevacantists' case Modernism, in EO case the Filioque, in OO case Nestorianism -- Mor's "451" date), he is now a pseudo-Pope and so it would be laudable to reject his authority, and separate communion from him in order to rescue the Church from schisms and heresies.

This principle goes back even before the Schism, to the Fifteenth Canon of the so-called "First-Second" Council of Constantinople in 861.
Quote
The rules laid down with reference to Presbyters and Bishops and Metropolitans are still more applicable to Patriarchs. So that in case any Presbyter or Bishop or Metropolitan dares to secede or apostatize from the communion of his own Patriarch, and fails to mention the latter's name in accordance with custom duly fixed and ordained, in the divine Mystagogy, but, before a conciliar verdict has been pronounced and has passed judgement against him, creates a schism, the holy Synod has decreed that this person shall be held an alien to every priestly function if only he be convicted of having committed this transgression of the law. Accordingly, these rules have been sealed and ordained as respecting persons who under the pretext of charges against their own presidents stand aloof, and create a schism, and disrupt the union of the Church. But as for those persons, on the other hand, who, on account of some heresy condemned by holy Synods, or Fathers, withdrawing themselves from communion with their president, who, that is to say, is preaching the heresy publicly, and teaching it bareheaded in church, such persons not only are not subject to any canonical penalty on account of their having walled themselves off from any and all communion with the one called a Bishop before any conciliar or synodical verdict has been rendered, but, on the contrary, they shall be deemed worthy to enjoy the honor which befits them among Orthodox Christians. For they have defied, not Bishops, but pseudo-bishops and pseudo-teachers; and they have not sundered the union of the Church with any schism, but, on the contrary, have been sedulous to rescue the Church from schisms and divisions.

Arguably Apostolic Canon XXXI also implies the same thing, and that is pre-Chalcedon I believe.  ;)
Quote
If any Presbyter, condemning his own bishop, draw people aside and set up another altar, without finding anything wrong with the Bishop in point of piety and righteousness, let him be deposed, on the ground that he is an office-seeker. For he is a tyrant. Let the rest of clergymen be treated likewise, and all those who abet him. But let the laymen be excommunicated. Let these things be done after one, and a second, and a third request of the Bishop.
source: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_canons.aspx (http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_canons.aspx)

The (dozen or so) Old Calendarists are also using the same canon to justify themselves, but it is not clear anyone among our hierarchs is truly teaching any condemned heresy openly in church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 12:13:00 AM
It always amaze me is the CAF members and CA apologists are aggressive. I don't know why they are lack of love and have lot of anger....
Also, I met lot of RCs are very aggressive and fanatic. They have lot of intellectual and spiritual pride.   
God is love, but how come I don't find love in so many RCs.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 17, 2017, 12:29:07 AM
Wow, no one can judge the pope. So we even don't know which is pope heretic or not. What happen if Pope is preaching heresy? As long as pope is not speaking in ex cathedra, he can preach whatever he wants and people have to be silence. :o
Many Roman Catholic apologists point out that VI actually limited the scope of papal infallibility, but, in my reckoning, all miss the point that VI was not only about this, but also proclaiming papal absolutism. In other words, according to Pastor Eternus, one can conclude that the pope can only exercise his infallibility in specific situations, but he is free to otherwise exercise heresy without questioning.  ???


Not sure you're quite getting it. The position shared by sedevacantists and Orthodox alike is that if he openly preaches a previously condemned heresy (in sedevacantists' case Modernism, in EO case the Filioque, in OO case Nestorianism -- Mor's "451" date), he is now a pseudo-Pope and so it would be laudable to reject his authority, and separate communion from him in order to rescue the Church from schisms and heresies.

This principle goes back even before the Schism, to the Fifteenth Canon of the so-called "First-Second" Council of Constantinople in 861.
Quote
The rules laid down with reference to Presbyters and Bishops and Metropolitans are still more applicable to Patriarchs. So that in case any Presbyter or Bishop or Metropolitan dares to secede or apostatize from the communion of his own Patriarch, and fails to mention the latter's name in accordance with custom duly fixed and ordained, in the divine Mystagogy, but, before a conciliar verdict has been pronounced and has passed judgement against him, creates a schism, the holy Synod has decreed that this person shall be held an alien to every priestly function if only he be convicted of having committed this transgression of the law. Accordingly, these rules have been sealed and ordained as respecting persons who under the pretext of charges against their own presidents stand aloof, and create a schism, and disrupt the union of the Church. But as for those persons, on the other hand, who, on account of some heresy condemned by holy Synods, or Fathers, withdrawing themselves from communion with their president, who, that is to say, is preaching the heresy publicly, and teaching it bareheaded in church, such persons not only are not subject to any canonical penalty on account of their having walled themselves off from any and all communion with the one called a Bishop before any conciliar or synodical verdict has been rendered, but, on the contrary, they shall be deemed worthy to enjoy the honor which befits them among Orthodox Christians. For they have defied, not Bishops, but pseudo-bishops and pseudo-teachers; and they have not sundered the union of the Church with any schism, but, on the contrary, have been sedulous to rescue the Church from schisms and divisions.

Arguably Apostolic Canon XXXI also implies the same thing, and that is pre-Chalcedon I believe.  ;)
Quote
If any Presbyter, condemning his own bishop, draw people aside and set up another altar, without finding anything wrong with the Bishop in point of piety and righteousness, let him be deposed, on the ground that he is an office-seeker. For he is a tyrant. Let the rest of clergymen be treated likewise, and all those who abet him. But let the laymen be excommunicated. Let these things be done after one, and a second, and a third request of the Bishop.
source: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_canons.aspx (http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_canons.aspx)

The (dozen or so) Old Calendarists are also using the same canon to justify themselves, but it is not clear anyone among our hierarchs is truly teaching any condemned heresy openly in church.

Are you seriously arguing that the Roman Catholics and the Vatican consider your quotes from Constantinople and the Apostolic Canons to govern the Pope? How?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 04:24:31 AM
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

So many post-schism Orthodox Saints like Saint Seraphim of Sarov, St. Xenia, St. John the Wonderworker are in heaven. They prove Pope Innocent III's statement is wrong.
There are Orthodox Saints who are former Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic like, St. Alexis Toth, St. Maxim Sandovich, St. Procopius of Ustyug and St. Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague .

 

Really, how do you arrive at that conclusion? The opposite is true. The Catholic church simply does not care much about post-schism Orthodox saints.
The Catholic church does not know whether they are in heaven or not and does not make statements about it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Dominika on July 17, 2017, 07:04:13 AM
The Catholic church simply does not care much about post-schism Orthodox saints.
The Catholic church does not know whether they are in heaven or not and does not make statements about it.

Well, at least in Poland, among some RC circles some post-schism Orthodox saints are quite popular or "newly-discovered" (along with Akathists, O Heavenly King prayer, Jesus Prayer and prayer ropes, icons etc.). But it applies rather not to martyrs, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 07:11:32 AM
Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

So many post-schism Orthodox Saints like Saint Seraphim of Sarov, St. Xenia, St. John the Wonderworker are in heaven. They prove Pope Innocent III's statement is wrong.
There are Orthodox Saints who are former Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic like, St. Alexis Toth, St. Maxim Sandovich, St. Procopius of Ustyug and St. Gorazd (Pavlik) of Prague .

 

Really, how do you arrive at that conclusion? The opposite is true. The Catholic church simply does not care much about post-schism Orthodox saints.
The Catholic church does not know whether they are in heaven or not and does not make statements about it.

St. John Paul II referred St.  Seraphim of Sarov as Saint in him book  Threshold of Hope.
http://catholicsaints.info/saint-seraphim-of-sarov/
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 17, 2017, 07:16:03 AM
Quote
Not sure you're quite getting it. The position shared by sedevacantists and Orthodox alike is that if he openly preaches a previously condemned heresy (in sedevacantists' case Modernism, in EO case the Filioque, in OO case Nestorianism -- Mor's "451" date), he is now a pseudo-Pope and so it would be laudable to reject his authority, and separate communion from him in order to rescue the Church from schisms and heresies.
Do sedevacantists have bishops ? Why I have the impression that they don't.

No bishop = no Church = no authority = self authority = anti authority = lawlessness = no sacraments = no salvation.

As for chalcedon it is simply unserious to claim chalcedonians were nestorian.



Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 07:17:03 AM
Catholic Recognition of Orthodox Saints post-schism
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=10863.0

 list of post-schism Russian Orthodox saints who were approved by Pope Paul VI and included in the Roman calendar:


1. St. Sava of Serbia (January 14) [1174-1237]
2. St. Nicetas of Novgorod (January 31) [†1108]
3. St. John the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
4. St. Anthony the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
5. St. Eustace the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
6. St. Stephen the Enlightener of Perm (April 26) [1340-1396]
7. St. Stephen Pechersky (April 27) [†1094]
8. St. Cyril of Turov (April 28) [1130-1182]
9. St. Ignatius of Rostov (April 28) [†1288]
10. St. Isaiah the Wonderworker of Rostov (May 15) [†1090]
11. St. Euphrosyne of Polotsk (May 23) [†1173]
12. St. Leontius of Rostov (May 23) [†1077]
13. St. Nicetas the Wonderworker of Pereaslavl (May 24) [†1186]
14. St. German of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
15. St. Sergius of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
16. St. Anthony of the Kiev Caves (July 10) [983-1073]
17. St. Theodosius of the Kiev Caves (July 10)
18. St. Theodore the Black of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
19. St. David of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
20. St. Constantine of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
21. St. Michael the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
22. St. Theodore the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
23. St. Sergius the Wonderworker of Radonezh (September 25) [1314-1392]
24. St. Abraham the Wonderworker of Rostov (October 29) [†1073]
25. St. Barlaam of Khutyn (November 6) [†1193]

http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.tw/2010/11/post-schism-russian-orthodox-saints-fr.html

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 07:18:36 AM
Quote
Not sure you're quite getting it. The position shared by sedevacantists and Orthodox alike is that if he openly preaches a previously condemned heresy (in sedevacantists' case Modernism, in EO case the Filioque, in OO case Nestorianism -- Mor's "451" date), he is now a pseudo-Pope and so it would be laudable to reject his authority, and separate communion from him in order to rescue the Church from schisms and heresies.
Do sedevacantists have bishops ? Why I have the impression that they don't.

No bishop = no Church = no authority = self authority = anti authority = lawlessness = no sacraments = no salvation.

As for chalcedon it is simply unserious to claim chalcedonians were nestorian.

Sedavacantists do have the bishops ::)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism#Bishops_whose_lineages_derive_from_the_foregoing_bishops

"Bishops consecrated within the official Church who later took a sedevacantist position[edit]
To date, this category seems to consist of only two individuals, both now deceased: the Vietnamese Archbishop Thục (who, before his death in 1984, may have been reconciled to Pope John Paul II) and the Chicago-born Mgr. Alfredo F. Méndez,[22] the former Bishop of Arecibo, Puerto Rico."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism#Bishops_consecrated_within_the_official_Church_who_later_took_a_sedevacantist_position
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 17, 2017, 07:43:02 AM
Quote
To date, this category seems to consist of only two individuals, both now deceased
Lol, what a joke.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 07:46:46 AM
Why Sedevacantism Must Be Rejected
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0f-tBz2CY&t=19s

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 17, 2017, 01:36:19 PM
As for chalcedon it is simply unserious to claim chalcedonians were nestorian.

Not unserious at all.  Of course, this gets clarified over the course of history, so it may be a silly claim to make now, but certainly in the early period it was less clear.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 03:25:07 PM
Catholic Recognition of Orthodox Saints post-schism
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=10863.0

 list of post-schism Russian Orthodox saints who were approved by Pope Paul VI and included in the Roman calendar:


1. St. Sava of Serbia (January 14) [1174-1237]
2. St. Nicetas of Novgorod (January 31) [†1108]
3. St. John the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
4. St. Anthony the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
5. St. Eustace the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
6. St. Stephen the Enlightener of Perm (April 26) [1340-1396]
7. St. Stephen Pechersky (April 27) [†1094]
8. St. Cyril of Turov (April 28) [1130-1182]
9. St. Ignatius of Rostov (April 28) [†1288]
10. St. Isaiah the Wonderworker of Rostov (May 15) [†1090]
11. St. Euphrosyne of Polotsk (May 23) [†1173]
12. St. Leontius of Rostov (May 23) [†1077]
13. St. Nicetas the Wonderworker of Pereaslavl (May 24) [†1186]
14. St. German of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
15. St. Sergius of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
16. St. Anthony of the Kiev Caves (July 10) [983-1073]
17. St. Theodosius of the Kiev Caves (July 10)
18. St. Theodore the Black of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
19. St. David of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
20. St. Constantine of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
21. St. Michael the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
22. St. Theodore the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
23. St. Sergius the Wonderworker of Radonezh (September 25) [1314-1392]
24. St. Abraham the Wonderworker of Rostov (October 29) [†1073]
25. St. Barlaam of Khutyn (November 6) [†1193]

http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.tw/2010/11/post-schism-russian-orthodox-saints-fr.html
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 17, 2017, 03:26:39 PM
Catholic Recognition of Orthodox Saints post-schism
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=10863.0

 list of post-schism Russian Orthodox saints who were approved by Pope Paul VI and included in the Roman calendar:


1. St. Sava of Serbia (January 14) [1174-1237]
2. St. Nicetas of Novgorod (January 31) [†1108]
3. St. John the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
4. St. Anthony the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
5. St. Eustace the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
6. St. Stephen the Enlightener of Perm (April 26) [1340-1396]
7. St. Stephen Pechersky (April 27) [†1094]
8. St. Cyril of Turov (April 28) [1130-1182]
9. St. Ignatius of Rostov (April 28) [†1288]
10. St. Isaiah the Wonderworker of Rostov (May 15) [†1090]
11. St. Euphrosyne of Polotsk (May 23) [†1173]
12. St. Leontius of Rostov (May 23) [†1077]
13. St. Nicetas the Wonderworker of Pereaslavl (May 24) [†1186]
14. St. German of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
15. St. Sergius of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
16. St. Anthony of the Kiev Caves (July 10) [983-1073]
17. St. Theodosius of the Kiev Caves (July 10)
18. St. Theodore the Black of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
19. St. David of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
20. St. Constantine of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
21. St. Michael the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
22. St. Theodore the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
23. St. Sergius the Wonderworker of Radonezh (September 25) [1314-1392]
24. St. Abraham the Wonderworker of Rostov (October 29) [†1073]
25. St. Barlaam of Khutyn (November 6) [†1193]

http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.tw/2010/11/post-schism-russian-orthodox-saints-fr.html
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.

Stop. You're going to sprain something.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 03:50:13 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 03:53:00 PM
And Porter: Why do you have to reply to every post from me with biting irony? Are you afraid of something?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 17, 2017, 04:23:07 PM
And Porter: Why do you have to reply to every post from me with biting irony? Are you afraid of something?

Not afraid at all. I know the Vatican is not a contagious disease, just, apparently, genetic.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 17, 2017, 04:23:31 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 04:29:59 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 04:31:48 PM
And Porter: Why do you have to reply to every post from me with biting irony? Are you afraid of something?

Not afraid at all. I know the Vatican is not a contagious disease, just, apparently, genetic.
Sounds like hatred or anger. What did Catholics do to you?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 17, 2017, 04:35:06 PM
And Porter: Why do you have to reply to every post from me with biting irony? Are you afraid of something?

Not afraid at all. I know the Vatican is not a contagious disease, just, apparently, genetic.
Sounds like hatred or anger. What did Catholics do to you?

Catholic Recognition of Orthodox Saints post-schism
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=10863.0

 list of post-schism Russian Orthodox saints who were approved by Pope Paul VI and included in the Roman calendar:


1. St. Sava of Serbia (January 14) [1174-1237]
2. St. Nicetas of Novgorod (January 31) [†1108]
3. St. John the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
4. St. Anthony the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
5. St. Eustace the Martyr of Vilnius (April 14) [†1342]
6. St. Stephen the Enlightener of Perm (April 26) [1340-1396]
7. St. Stephen Pechersky (April 27) [†1094]
8. St. Cyril of Turov (April 28) [1130-1182]
9. St. Ignatius of Rostov (April 28) [†1288]
10. St. Isaiah the Wonderworker of Rostov (May 15) [†1090]
11. St. Euphrosyne of Polotsk (May 23) [†1173]
12. St. Leontius of Rostov (May 23) [†1077]
13. St. Nicetas the Wonderworker of Pereaslavl (May 24) [†1186]
14. St. German of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
15. St. Sergius of Valaam (June 28) [†?]
16. St. Anthony of the Kiev Caves (July 10) [983-1073]
17. St. Theodosius of the Kiev Caves (July 10)
18. St. Theodore the Black of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
19. St. David of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
20. St. Constantine of Yaroslavl (September 19) [†1299]
21. St. Michael the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
22. St. Theodore the Martyr, Wonderworker of Chernigov (September 21) [†1246]
23. St. Sergius the Wonderworker of Radonezh (September 25) [1314-1392]
24. St. Abraham the Wonderworker of Rostov (October 29) [†1073]
25. St. Barlaam of Khutyn (November 6) [†1193]

http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.tw/2010/11/post-schism-russian-orthodox-saints-fr.html
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 17, 2017, 04:38:30 PM
So you are angry we "stole" your saints.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 17, 2017, 04:50:06 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 17, 2017, 05:00:42 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist
Convince us of your invisible church. Where would we go for the sacraments?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 17, 2017, 05:07:55 PM
Quote
but about Anthony who is confused.
@Lepanto
You are the one who is confused, Anthony is beginning to see through the empty threats and fear mongering of the heterodox.

Quote
Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
@Lepanto
The saints are inside the Church, maybe you are in the wrong place ?

Maybe you should get quick reminder of what St Spyridon did (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnBOBF0NL7s) to the deluded cardinal who was harassing the Orthodox.

Why Sedevacantism Must Be Rejected
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0f-tBz2CY&t=19s
I am glad you are getting spiritually healthier, just so you know, roman-catoliks, sedes, sspx are not the only people who use abusive  fear tactics, many protestant sects do it quite often as well.

So many post-schism Orthodox Saints like Saint Seraphim of Sarov, St. Xenia, St. John the Wonderworker are in heaven. They prove Pope Innocent III's statement is wrong.
Exactly! Once people get to know our saints there is absolutely no doubt that we have the truth, and that they are in heaven.

Go to google and type "a smile from eternity" then go to images and have a good look, did these orthodox saints look to you like they ended up in a bad place ?

Another proof is that after their repose, our saints do countless of miracles and are always helping people, few names that instantly come to my mind - St Seraphim of Sofia, St Luke the Surgeon, St Nektarios. I found a webpage (http://saintnectarios.blogspot.bg) made by thankful people who were healed by the help of St Nektarios interestingly enough St Nektarios have a written materials against the latins.

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 17, 2017, 07:20:59 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 09:59:55 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Well, as I mention before before if based on transportation or geographical reasons Roman Catholicism will be the better choice for me. I am in Taiwan this summer. The RC parish just 10 minutes drive for me. If I want to go to Orthodox Church it is 2 hours by train.
Also, in during the regular academic year when I am in Madrid, the RC parish is just downstairs of my residence. The Orthodox church require 10 minutes metro.
However, I am not picking faith my convenience reason. I am looking for true apostolic church established by Christ.   
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 10:03:53 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.

sedevacantists are the most ridiculous group I have ever met. They don't have any reasonable proper logic at all.
Sedevacantists want us to believe papal supremacy and infallibility, but they believe there is no valid Pope since 1958.
It is so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 10:08:38 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

According to your sedevacantists position people like me who received confirmation in post-Vatican II RC are not true Catholic. You guys believe all the post-Vatican II RCs are all going to hell anyway.
Funny thing is most of post-Vatican II RCs believe most of Sedevacantists are in schism so you guys are in the state of mortal sin. According to post-Vatican II RCs Sedevacantists might end up in hell.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 10:29:04 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Well, as I mentioned before if based on transportation or geographical reasons, Roman Catholicism will be the better choice for me. I am in Taiwan this summer. The RC parish just 10 minutes drive for me. If I want to go to Orthodox Church it is 2 hours by train.
Also,during the regular academic year when I am in Madrid, the RC parish is just downstairs of my residence. The Orthodox church require 10 minutes metro.
However, I am not picking faith my convenience reason. I am looking for true apostolic church established by Christ.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 17, 2017, 10:29:53 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.

sedevacantists are the most ridiculous group I have ever met. They don't have any reasonable proper logic at all.
Sedevacantists want us to believe papal supremacy and infallibility, but they believe there is no valid Pope since 1958.
It is so ridiculous.

I disagree. Sedevacantism is the only reasonable position you can hold, minus cognitive dissonance which I guess isn't rational anyway, if you believe Rome is the Church, has the faith, cannot contradict itself, cannot endorse a perversion of the order of Mass and is infallible.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 17, 2017, 10:33:36 PM
And Porter: Why do you have to reply to every post from me with biting irony? Are you afraid of something?

Not afraid at all. I know the Vatican is not a contagious disease, just, apparently, genetic.
Sounds like hatred or anger. What did Catholics do to you?

There's a huge list of things one could easily accuse the Vatican of doing, successfully. Nevertheless, the most obvious one, and probably the most important to those in this forum, seems to be: lying about and debasing Christianity, Christian culture and civilization.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 17, 2017, 10:34:30 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 17, 2017, 11:31:11 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.

sedevacantists are the most ridiculous group I have ever met. They don't have any reasonable proper logic at all.
Sedevacantists want us to believe papal supremacy and infallibility, but they believe there is no valid Pope since 1958.
It is so ridiculous.

I disagree. Sedevacantism is the only reasonable position you can hold, minus cognitive dissonance which I guess isn't rational anyway, if you believe Rome is the Church, has the faith, cannot contradict itself, cannot endorse a perversion of the order of Mass and is infallible.

Two fallacies don't make a fact.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on July 17, 2017, 11:44:29 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Well, as I mentioned before if based on transportation or geographical reasons, Roman Catholicism will be the better choice for me. I am in Taiwan this summer. The RC parish just 10 minutes drive for me. If I want to go to Orthodox Church it is 2 hours by train.
Also,during the regular academic year when I am in Madrid, the RC parish is just downstairs of my residence. The Orthodox church require 10 minutes metro.
However, I am not picking faith my convenience reason. I am looking for true apostolic church established by Christ.
I'm sorry we aren't helping, but going over the entire history of all the polemics of the East-West Schism on your thread. Me included. Forgive me  :-[
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 17, 2017, 11:51:13 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Well, as I mentioned before if based on transportation or geographical reasons, Roman Catholicism will be the better choice for me. I am in Taiwan this summer. The RC parish just 10 minutes drive for me. If I want to go to Orthodox Church it is 2 hours by train.
Also,during the regular academic year when I am in Madrid, the RC parish is just downstairs of my residence. The Orthodox church require 10 minutes metro.
However, I am not picking faith my convenience reason. I am looking for true apostolic church established by Christ.
I'm sorry we aren't helping, but going over the entire history of all the polemics of the East-West Schism on your thread. Me included. Forgive me  :-[

It is ok. You did nothing wrong. I am searching the truth. I want to see is the Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy are truth church established by Christ.
By reading the posts from both sides it help me to see the truth.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 18, 2017, 02:50:33 AM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Well, as I mention before before if based on transportation or geographical reasons Roman Catholicism will be the better choice for me. I am in Taiwan this summer. The RC parish just 10 minutes drive for me. If I want to go to Orthodox Church it is 2 hours by train.
Also, in during the regular academic year when I am in Madrid, the RC parish is just downstairs of my residence. The Orthodox church require 10 minutes metro.
However, I am not picking faith my convenience reason. I am looking for true apostolic church established by Christ.
Very well. Really, I was not suggesting to pick faith on a convenience base, but to make a choice which can work for a long time.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 18, 2017, 02:58:14 AM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 18, 2017, 12:34:03 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.

sedevacantists are the most ridiculous group I have ever met. They don't have any reasonable proper logic at all.
Sedevacantists want us to believe papal supremacy and infallibility, but they believe there is no valid Pope since 1958.
It is so ridiculous.

I disagree. Sedevacantism is the only reasonable position you can hold, minus cognitive dissonance which I guess isn't rational anyway, if you believe Rome is the Church, has the faith, cannot contradict itself, cannot endorse a perversion of the order of Mass and is infallible.

Two fallacies don't make a fact.

Of course not, Sedevacantism is a form of cognitive dissonance in it's own right. Papism without a Pope, just as silly a notion as any.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 18, 2017, 12:35:15 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 18, 2017, 02:19:35 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

Maybe you should read the document more carefully.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 18, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
Quote
Not sure you're quite getting it. The position shared by sedevacantists and Orthodox alike is that if he openly preaches a previously condemned heresy (in sedevacantists' case Modernism, in EO case the Filioque, in OO case Nestorianism -- Mor's "451" date), he is now a pseudo-Pope and so it would be laudable to reject his authority, and separate communion from him in order to rescue the Church from schisms and heresies.
Do sedevacantists have bishops ? Why I have the impression that they don't.

No bishop = no Church = no authority = self authority = anti authority = lawlessness = no sacraments = no salvation.

As for chalcedon it is simply unserious to claim chalcedonians were nestorian.
During the Western Schism, three men claimed to be pope (the true pope in Rome, one in Avignon, one in Pisa) In order to heal the nearly forty-year schism, the Council of Constance determined that with all the cardinals, delegates from each country would participate in the papal election (Pope Martin V was elected). Theologians teach that in doubt of or in absence of cardinals, the Church has the right to choose its Head.

Proof:

A. De Potestate Ecclesiae, Vitoria

— “Even if St. Peter would have not determined anything, once he was dead, the Church had the power to substitute him and appoint a successor to him ... If by any calamity, war or plague, all Cardinals would be lacking, we cannot doubt that the Church could provide for herself a Holy Father.

— “Hence such an election should be carried out by all the Church and not by any particular Church. And this is because that power is common and it concerns the whole Church. So it must be the duty of the whole Church.”

B. De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, Cajetan, OP

— “.. . by exception and by supplementary manner this power (that of electing a pope), corresponds to the Church and to the Council, either by the absence of Cardinal Electors, or because they are doubtful, or the election itself is uncertain, as it happened at the time of the schism.”
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 18, 2017, 03:05:38 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist
Convince us of your invisible church. Where would we go for the sacraments?

there’s no invisible Church but we are in a  crisis, that shouldn’t be debatable to any Catholic who is of good will and has done their research.
 It is  debatable where you can get valid sacraments, I believe for now SSPX and CMRI are  valid options although it depends if the priest is too liberal. There are resistance priests (those who have left the sspx because of a pending deal with Rome) . If you don’t have those options near you unfortunately it’s best to stay home. Under no circumstances are you to attend a novus ordo mass.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 18, 2017, 03:06:24 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.

You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 18, 2017, 03:24:12 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this is. This person is saying that you must return to a church that had an anti-Christ as its pope.

You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

Anthony, I hope you see how ridiculous this this. This person is saying that you must return to a church that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 18, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist
Convince us of your invisible church. Where would we go for the sacraments?

there’s no invisible Church but we are in a  crisis, that shouldn’t be debatable to any Catholic who is of good will and has done their research.
 It is  debatable where you can get valid sacraments, I believe for now SSPX and CMRI are  valid options although it depends if the priest is too liberal. There are resistance priests (those who have left the sspx because of a pending deal with Rome) . If you don’t have those options near you unfortunately it’s best to stay home. Under no circumstances are you to attend a novus ordo mass.
I love the people of the SSPX, that is where I came from. I have a lot of respect for Bp. Pivarunas.
Even the SSPX rejects sedevacantism, at my old chapel they'd kick you out if you promoted it. Also, they have some priests that were ordained using the new right. The CMRI has a dark past and although they have Catholic theology, and from your point of view valid sacraments, it was never part of the Catholic Church. Can any catholic get Holy Orders from outside the church, then start up an organization that teaches Catholic theology and dispenses the sacraments, and have this be the visible church?

I'm not good at writing, so I'm sorry if I'm not getting my point across clearly. Going to the SSPX was the only thing that saved my Catholic faith. Their mental gymnastics became too much for me especially with the recent canonizations. I couldn't accept the modern popes either. I realized the church I was a part of no longer existed. The crisis as it is would be the gates of hell prevailing. It seemed either Jesus was wrong in his promise or the Catholic Church was not the church that Jesus made this promise about.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 18, 2017, 04:22:41 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 18, 2017, 04:33:45 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist
Convince us of your invisible church. Where would we go for the sacraments?

there’s no invisible Church but we are in a  crisis, that shouldn’t be debatable to any Catholic who is of good will and has done their research.
 It is  debatable where you can get valid sacraments, I believe for now SSPX and CMRI are  valid options although it depends if the priest is too liberal. There are resistance priests (those who have left the sspx because of a pending deal with Rome) . If you don’t have those options near you unfortunately it’s best to stay home. Under no circumstances are you to attend a novus ordo mass.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peteror not, and upon this rock I will build my churchor maybe some resistance priests; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against itunless, you know, there's a crisis -- that shouldn't be debatable to any disciple who is of good will and has done their research, Peter, sheesh."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ialmisry on July 18, 2017, 07:57:57 PM
Quote
Not sure you're quite getting it. The position shared by sedevacantists and Orthodox alike is that if he openly preaches a previously condemned heresy (in sedevacantists' case Modernism, in EO case the Filioque, in OO case Nestorianism -- Mor's "451" date), he is now a pseudo-Pope and so it would be laudable to reject his authority, and separate communion from him in order to rescue the Church from schisms and heresies.
Do sedevacantists have bishops ? Why I have the impression that they don't.

No bishop = no Church = no authority = self authority = anti authority = lawlessness = no sacraments = no salvation.

As for chalcedon it is simply unserious to claim chalcedonians were nestorian.
During the Western Schism, three men claimed to be pope (the true pope in Rome, one in Avignon, one in Pisa) In order to heal the nearly forty-year schism, the Council of Constance determined that with all the cardinals, delegates from each country would participate in the papal election (Pope Martin V was elected). Theologians teach that in doubt of or in absence of cardinals, the Church has the right to choose its Head.

Proof:

A. De Potestate Ecclesiae, Vitoria

— “Even if St. Peter would have not determined anything, once he was dead, the Church had the power to substitute him and appoint a successor to him ... If by any calamity, war or plague, all Cardinals would be lacking, we cannot doubt that the Church could provide for herself a Holy Father.

— “Hence such an election should be carried out by all the Church and not by any particular Church. And this is because that power is common and it concerns the whole Church. So it must be the duty of the whole Church.”

B. De Comparatione Auctoritatis Papae et Concilii, Cajetan, OP

— “.. . by exception and by supplementary manner this power (that of electing a pope), corresponds to the Church and to the Council, either by the absence of Cardinal Electors, or because they are doubtful, or the election itself is uncertain, as it happened at the time of the schism.”
Cajetan is not going to help you out of the corner you have painted yourself:
I can across something else of interest to the issue of the "manus" on supreme pontiff: Cajetan's Authority of Pope and Council Compared.
Quote
If someone insists that, when the apostolic see is vacant, the universal Church still exists, even without the pope as its head, the answer is that the universal Church exists only imperfectly, in such a way that this imperfection is a condition diminishing "the universal Church," just as a beheaded body diminishes an intact body.  The universal [body], after all, includes within itself all its office-holding members, the chief of whom is the head. Accordingly, the Church at such a time is headless and without its supreme part and power. Whoever denies this falls into the error of John Hus, denying the necessity of a head of the Church, which was condemned by Saint Thomas and by Martin V with the Council of Constance." And if someone took the view that the universal Church in this sense [without its head] has power immediately from Christ and is represented by the universal council, he would err intolerably, as is obvious from the texts cited and as will become more apparent further on.

Concerning the second comparison at the other extreme, between the pope set on one side and the whole Church, that is, even including the pope, on the other, it is said that the pope with the rest of the Church does not have greater power of spiritual jurisdiction than he has by himself, because his power
contains in itself the powers of all the rest, as their universal cause
There is no power of jurisdiction in the Church which is not in the pope, as is inductively obvious.

Even the power to elect the pope is in the pope's power. This is obvious both from the case of Peter, who chose his successor, as John III says in c. Si Petrus [C. 8 q. 1 c. 1], and from the fact that the pope ordains the exercise of the power to elect, determining when and how an election should be held, and, what is more important, determining the location of that power, when he established that election belongs to at least two thirds of the cardinals. This is proved from c. Si papa [D. 40 c. 6], where it is said that the whole body of the faithful recognizes that its salvation depends most, after the Lord, on the pope's good condition. Pope Leo says in c. Ita Dominus [D. 19 c. 7], "The Lord wished the sacrament of this gift to belong to the office of all the apostles, so that He placed [it] principally in most blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles, that from him, as from a head, He might pour out His gifts, as it were, upon the whole body."  It is absolutely obvious in that passage that all the rest of the Church's body is allocated power by the pope as if by a head.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mC-I3inCYOIC&pg=PA23&dq=%22If+someone+insists+that,+when+the+apostolic+see+is+vacant,+the+universal+Church%22&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22If%20someone%20insists%20that%2C%20when%20the%20apostolic%20see%20is%20vacant%2C%20the%20universal%20Church%22&f=false

Oh dear, it seems that not even a Council has the power to make a bishop into a supreme pontiff, a real problem for Petrine succession.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 18, 2017, 09:40:02 PM
CMRI???
"With the implementation of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, Schuckhardt and his group came to the conclusion that Pope Paul VI was not a valid pope and therefore sought services from priests who shared his theological position. In the early 1970s Schuckhardt received holy orders as a priest and as a bishop from Bishop Daniel Q. Brown, an Old Catholic Church bishop."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Mary_Immaculate_Queen

The priest and bishop that received the Holy Order from the Old Catholic Church, that is the group outside the Roman Catholic Church.
How can you be sedevacantists but received the Holy Order outside the Roman Catholic Church???
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 18, 2017, 10:07:09 PM
Yes, I know, Catholics must do a lot of mental gymnastics, it is unbelievably self-contradictory, blablabla. Ever been a Catholic? I guess you don't have a clue. But this is not about you and me, but about Anthony who is confused. If he's going back to Taiwan, he should consider which church he can reach each Sunday.

Anthony is Orthodox, so please back off.
Faith: Confused Christian
Jurisdiction: Searching
I didn't write "If you leave the Catholic church, you will go to hell", or similar. I just mentioned a practical aspect to consider. I think he's likely well aware of it, but is this really something unfair, untrue or otherwise inappropriate to say?
If you leave the Catholic faith you go to hell, if you care about these orthodox you should be trying to convince them.
as for saints recognized by Paul VI,there shouldn't be much weight put on them..Paul VI was an antiChrist
Convince us of your invisible church. Where would we go for the sacraments?

there’s no invisible Church but we are in a  crisis, that shouldn’t be debatable to any Catholic who is of good will and has done their research.
 It is  debatable where you can get valid sacraments, I believe for now SSPX and CMRI are  valid options although it depends if the priest is too liberal. There are resistance priests (those who have left the sspx because of a pending deal with Rome) . If you don’t have those options near you unfortunately it’s best to stay home. Under no circumstances are you to attend a novus ordo mass.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peteror not, and upon this rock I will build my churchor maybe some resistance priests; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against itunless, you know, there's a crisis -- that shouldn't be debatable to any disciple who is of good will and has done their research, Peter, sheesh."

I've always enjoyed that verse, properly translated.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 18, 2017, 10:08:08 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.

It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 18, 2017, 10:14:44 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.

It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.

What?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 18, 2017, 10:31:45 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.

It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.

What?

What is "the Church"? Million dollar question.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Asteriktos on July 18, 2017, 10:45:09 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.

It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.

What?

What is "the Church"? Million dollar question.

ozgeorge helped us (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33106.0.html) help ourselves search for the answer to this question, but he only offered $50 so maybe that's why we couldn't figure it out. In any event, if I read your previous post correctly, you seemed to have some idea that allowed you to say that an interpretation was incorrect... so even if you don't know for sure what the Church is, could you at least say what you were thinking when you made the response?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 18, 2017, 10:46:21 PM
In any event, if I read your previous post correctly, you seemed to have some idea that allowed you to say that an interpretation was incorrect... so even if you don't know for sure what the Church is, could you at least say what you were thinking when you made the response?

+1
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 18, 2017, 11:00:35 PM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.

It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.

What?

What is "the Church"? Million dollar question.

ozgeorge helped us (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33106.0.html) help ourselves search for the answer to this question, but he only offered $50 so maybe that's why we couldn't figure it out. In any event, if I read your previous post correctly, you seemed to have some idea that allowed you to say that an interpretation was incorrect... so even if you don't know for sure what the Church is, could you at least say what you were thinking when you made the response?

I know what the Church is, that's why I am asking the question. Knowing what the Church is, is central to understanding what subsisting in it means.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 19, 2017, 02:10:44 AM
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."
Keep going:


"17. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 19, 2017, 02:16:39 AM
It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.
The Orthodox sacraments are as real as Roman ones, according to the Roman Church, otherwise Roman Catholics wouldn't be allowed, again by the Roman Church, to receive sacraments from the Orthodox Churches.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 19, 2017, 02:29:12 AM
I rest my case.  8)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 19, 2017, 02:43:32 AM
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."
Keep going:


"17. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church."

Keep going:

17.Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 19, 2017, 02:45:19 AM
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."
Keep going:


"17. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church."

Keep going:

17.Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

Missing the forest for the trees on this one. Do you recall what the original claim was wherein we began this little back and forth?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 19, 2017, 02:53:46 AM
Keep going:

17.Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.
Pray, tell, how does this emphasis change the fact that the Church of Christ is real in the Orthodox Churches and that thus its sacraments confer Divine Grace that makes saints out of sinners? 

Or did you just follow up with this non squitur to have the last word?  If so, I forfeit this comment and grant you those last words.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 19, 2017, 07:35:30 AM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2017, 11:08:22 AM
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."
Keep going:


"17. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church."

Keep going:

17.Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.

Missing the forest for the trees on this one. Do you recall what the original claim was wherein we began this little back and forth?

What was it?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2017, 11:11:14 AM
Keep going:

17.Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.
Pray, tell, how does this emphasis change the fact that the Church of Christ is real in the Orthodox Churches and that thus its sacraments confer Divine Grace that makes saints out of sinners? 

Or did you just follow up with this non squitur to have the last word?  If so, I forfeit this comment and grant you those last words.

I think reading Dominus Iesus as saying there's nothing at all lacking in the Orthodox Church from the point of view of the Roman Catholic Church is an error.  Do they recognise Orthodox sacraments/orders?  Yes.  So what?  For Catholics, there's more to the Church than that. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 20, 2017, 02:37:28 AM
Ok, thanks for the list. But that's not what I meant. Those saints were recognized by the church.
That's of course fine and not a contradiction to your papal quote. Saints outside the church does not make any sense.
Yet, these who saints were never part of the Roman Church and did not hold the same beliefs, were recognized by PP PVI.  The only reasonable course of action is to concede, like the good pope did, that there are saints outside the Roman Church, even without investigating their cause.  It's not the Roman Church that makes saints, she merely recognizes the fact that people are saints in Heaven.

As a matter of fact, in Dominus Jesus, then Card. Ratzinger admitted that the Church does subsist in the Orthodox Churches.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html)

"17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,
governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him."

Subsists in the Catholic Church, yes. It also subsists in the Churches which are in "partial communion" with the Catholic Church, like the Orthodox and certain Protestant Churches. That's what the Roman Church teaches, mind you, not what our Church teaches.

That is incorrect:
In number 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium "subsistence" means this perduring, historical continuity and the permanence of all the elements instituted by Christ in the Catholic Church, in which the Church of Christ is concretely found on this earth. It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word "subsists" can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe… in the "one" Church); and this "one" Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

That's why dominus Iesus uses the word "present" rather than subsists in relation to non-catholic churches as susbsist simply means full equivalence. Further dominus Iesus says this is only possible that the church of Christ can be said to present in these communities because they have the sacraments which belong the church.

It's entirely correct, otherwise we wouldn't have valid sacraments, and be able to take communion at a Roman Church. Your interpretation is what is incorrect.

This meaning of the term subsistit coincides with the common language of Western culture and is consistent with classical philosophical language from Aristotle to St. Thomas;
that which exists in itself and not in something else is said to subsist.

"Subsisting is a special case of being. It is being in the form of a subject standing on its own. This is the issue here.
The Council wants to tell us that the Church of Jesus Christ as a concrete subject in the present world can be encountered in the Catholic Church.
This can occur only once and the notion that subsistit could be multiplied misses precisely what was intended.
With the word subsistit, the Council wanted to express the singularity and non-multiplicability of the Catholic Church".
(Joseph Ratzinger, "L'ecclesiologia della Costituzione Lumen Gentium" in R. Fisichella (ed.), II Concilio Vaticano II: Recezione e attualità alla luce del Giubileo (Cinisello B. 2000), 79.)

In this Document of the Council, the assertion of the subsistence of the Church of Christ in the Catholic Church is followed by the famous phrase about the presence of many elements of sanctification and truth,
belonging to the Church, outside her visible structure.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, already in 1985, in the face of erroneous interpretations, made the following statement in this regard:
" . . . the Council chose the word subsistit precisely in order to make it clear that there exists a single 'subsistence' of the true Church, while outside her visible structure only elementa ecclesiae exist,
which — as elements of the Church — tend and lead toward the Catholic Church".
(Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Notification on the book "Church: Charism and Power" by Fr. Leonardo Boff, AAS 77 (1985), 758-759.)

More recently, the same Congregation declared: "The interpretation of those who would derive from the formula subsistit in the thesis that the one Church of Christ could subsist
also in non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities is therefore contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen Gentium".
(Declaration Dominus Iesus, n. 6, August 2000, footnote 56.)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 20, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on July 20, 2017, 02:41:40 PM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

You have an apologetics that's "truly confused." The fact you can even articulate it doesn't make it less confused, altho it is an impressive mental feat.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 20, 2017, 02:55:33 PM
Sedevacantists assume they are the Church, and then work their way to the conclusion that the Church is in eclipse. They don't think to question the fundamental assumption.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 20, 2017, 04:01:35 PM
Sedevacantists assume they are the Church,
One Holy Catholic and ApostolicSedevacantis Church
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 21, 2017, 10:52:36 AM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 24, 2017, 09:33:32 PM
in around 1600  when catholics and orthodox asked God which one is right God responded Orthodox. For smart christians situation is settled for the one that do not doubt God.


What super beauty and super intelligence do you posses that you know better than God? Because divorce something you know better than God? Hilarious.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: pasadi97 on July 26, 2017, 07:45:16 AM
Do you know better than a Saint that is in heaven?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnBOBF0NL7s
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 26, 2017, 09:20:05 AM

The SSPX is a somewhat extremist organization, with undesirable ties to anti-Semitism, and an inconsistent theology.  I would avoid them.

The Orthodox Church is focused on love; we adhere vigorously to our tradition, but we do so in a loving manner, because we love it.


(https://contemporarynotes.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/zzznathanael1.jpg)

This is why the "there are some radicals, therefore the organization creates radicals" argument doesn't work.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 26, 2017, 09:30:32 AM
in around 1600  when catholics and orthodox asked God which one is right God responded Orthodox. For smart christians situation is settled for the one that do not doubt God.


What super beauty and super intelligence do you posses that you know better than God? Because divorce something you know better than God? Hilarious.

When? Where? What event was this?

For me personally, I hesitate, because we have in the Orthodox Church a vision of the Theotokos in which she called the Latins "Godless," and in the Catholic Church we have a vision of the Theotokos in which she desires Russia to be converted to "her Immaculate Heart."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 26, 2017, 09:45:03 AM
I also wonder how anybody can clearly be SSPX and reject Vatican II - although it is a hard pill to swallow, and even though it was called as a "Pastoral Council," there are clearly dogmatic declarations by the authority of the Pope which, according to Vatican I, are infallible - for those who read such documents.

Now as to whether or not there are contradictions or not in these declarations - and whether or not Pope Paul VI violated Quo Primum in his reform of the liturgy is a matter of debate.

Also, I find the basis on which the SSPX sees itself as canonical ("We are in an emergency situation in the Church due to liturgy and bad teachers, therefore, the authority of the Pope on us is null and void) very skeptical (Was the authority of the Pope null and void during iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire, or even during the period of Arianism? Or even during the period of Pope John XXII in which he was denouncing the Beatific Vision publicly and oppressing those who disagreed with him?)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 26, 2017, 10:18:59 AM
I also wonder how anybody can clearly be SSPX and reject Vatican II - although it is a hard pill to swallow, and even though it was called as a "Pastoral Council," there are clearly dogmatic declarations by the authority of the Pope which, according to Vatican I, are infallible - for those who read such documents.

Now as to whether or not there are contradictions or not in these declarations - and whether or not Pope Paul VI violated Quo Primum in his reform of the liturgy is a matter of debate.

Also, I find the basis on which the SSPX sees itself as canonical ("We are in an emergency situation in the Church due to liturgy and bad teachers, therefore, the authority of the Pope on us is null and void) very skeptical (Was the authority of the Pope null and void during iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire, or even during the period of Arianism? Or even during the period of Pope John XXII in which he was denouncing the Beatific Vision publicly and oppressing those who disagreed with him?)

Vatican made very clear the SSPX need to accept Vatican II in order to have the regular canonical status.
Many conservative Catholic priests and lay people said SSPX is still in schism. They are not Catholic and outside the Catholic Church.

But one thing I don't understand is then why the Pope Francis still give SSPX the faculty of concession and witness the marriage?

SSPX priests and supporters think Vatican II is heresy.  But they have many secret talk with Rome all the time.
SSPX criticize post Vatican II Popes all the time. However, according to  Pastor aeternus no Catholics can judge the Pope. So how can SSPX priests and supporters point out that the Popes teach heresy?

There are some SSPX priests and supporters eventually become sedevacantists.

According to Roman Catholic Church outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. So the SSPX priests and supporters are outside the Catholic Church so they will all go to hell?
So that is mean, we all have to accept Vatican II even the Novus Ordo Mass, otherwise we will all end up in hell?
As long as Pope is not speaking in ex cathedra he can teach heresy, and no one can speak up against heresy? If someone point out the mistakes of Pope, that person is in schism and will go to hell for that? 
There are so many confusions in Roman Catholic Church now.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 26, 2017, 10:26:45 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.





 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on July 26, 2017, 10:29:51 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 26, 2017, 11:10:22 AM
I also wonder how anybody can clearly be SSPX and reject Vatican II - although it is a hard pill to swallow, and even though it was called as a "Pastoral Council," there are clearly dogmatic declarations by the authority of the Pope which, according to Vatican I, are infallible - for those who read such documents.

Now as to whether or not there are contradictions or not in these declarations - and whether or not Pope Paul VI violated Quo Primum in his reform of the liturgy is a matter of debate.

Also, I find the basis on which the SSPX sees itself as canonical ("We are in an emergency situation in the Church due to liturgy and bad teachers, therefore, the authority of the Pope on us is null and void) very skeptical (Was the authority of the Pope null and void during iconoclasm in the Byzantine Empire, or even during the period of Arianism? Or even during the period of Pope John XXII in which he was denouncing the Beatific Vision publicly and oppressing those who disagreed with him?)

Vatican made very clear the SSPX need to accept Vatican II in order to have the regular canonical status.
Many conservative Catholic priests and lay people said SSPX is still in schism. They are not Catholic and outside the Catholic Church.

But one thing I don't understand is then why the Pope Francis still give SSPX the faculty of concession and witness the marriage?

SSPX priests and supporters think Vatican II is heresy.  But they have many secret talk with Rome all the time.
SSPX criticize post Vatican II Popes all the time. However, according to  Pastor aeternus no Catholics can judge the Pope. So how can SSPX priests and supporters point out that the Popes teach heresy?

There are some SSPX priests and supporters eventually become sedevacantists.

According to Roman Catholic Church outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. So the SSPX priests and supporters are outside the Catholic Church so they will all go to hell?
So that is mean, we all have to accept Vatican II even the Novus Ordo Mass, otherwise we will all end up in hell?
As long as Pope is not speaking in ex cathedra he can teach heresy, and no one can speak up against heresy? If someone point out the mistakes of Pope, that person is in schism and will go to hell for that? 
There are so many confusions in Roman Catholic Church now.

Only God can judge us - but if you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and you leave it to join the SSPX, it is a mortal sin of schism, according to the Roman Catholic Church.

The SSPX, when they were created, were granted canonical status, but they were excommunicated by John Paul II when they consecrated bishops illicitly.

For Roman Catholics, we have to accept what was declared infallible in Vatican II - not the entirety of it, but what was declared in it. For it is clear that there are ex-cathedra statements in Vatican II.

If accepting Vatican II was not a pre-requisite for being in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, why are they still not in communion?
Pope Francis, I thought, made it clear that they have to accept Vatican II as seen from a Traditionalist perspective - and then they can be canonical.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/pope-francis-sspx-must-accept-vatican-ii-and-the-new-mass

Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.

I think another thing to keep in mind - even though I think the whole idea of the Novus Ordo is abhorrent to me as a Catholic - many of the problems which have stemmed from the Novus Ordo Mass came after Vatican II, not during Vatican II.

Communion in the hand was lied to Pope Paul VI, which is why he permitted it but highly discouraged it - and the usage of lay-ministers is blasphemous as well, but this is disciplinary, not dogmatic. As well as the use of modern music, which was not permitted in Vatican II.
Facing the people in Mass was changed but I think this was an ecumenical intention rather than what was supposed to be the norm.

But nevertheless, the Mass is not an unchangeable infallible dogma, and it is merely disciplinary to a certain extent - so it is entirely possible that the Vatican is heretical and blasphemous with the new liturgy.


Even Pope Paul VI said Satan has entered the Synagogue in reference to the liturgical abuses.

As for the nature of the infallibility of the Pope, you touch on a part of Catholic dogma that hasn't been defined yet. Certainly in these limited instances the Pope speaks infallibly, but it seems that when he is not making a final declaration, he can speak heresy. Pope John XXII publicly taught that it is heresy to believe in the Beatific Vision.

I also wanted to point out that you should really look into Orthodoxy, because I personally think at this point in time that this whole crisis is really God's Punishment as a result of Vatican I, which pretty much cut off any attempt whatsoever at reconciliation between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church.

The movement for ecumenism and the child that is Vatican II occurred after Vatican I.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 26, 2017, 11:16:28 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

No it didn't - although I believe the Orthodox Church is the True Church at this point in time, I don't think Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

Also, Pope Francis never said that atheists can get to heaven. He said in a sermon that atheists and Christians can both do God's work on earth, and it is better to be an atheist than a hypocritical Catholic, of which the media had jumped on it to suggest that atheists can get to heaven.

http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

I argue that Extra Ecclasiam Nulla Salus, as Kallistos Ware teaches it, is compatible with Roman Catholic dogma.

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 26, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 26, 2017, 12:54:54 PM
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 26, 2017, 11:23:38 PM
As long as Pope is not speaking in ex cathedra he can teach heresy, and no one can speak up against heresy?
To me, this is the crux of the matter.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 26, 2017, 11:33:26 PM
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 27, 2017, 12:03:09 AM
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 27, 2017, 12:06:38 AM
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Disclaimer: I don't have a phone. 

Is there a way to deactivate autocorrect?  It seems to create more trouble than it's worth. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 27, 2017, 10:18:11 AM
Just curious, if a person converted to Holy Orthodoxy than left the Orthodox Church, and become Roman Catholic  by he or her free will. Will this person lost the salvation?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 27, 2017, 04:57:24 PM
To leave Orthodoxy is a grave sin from the Orthodox Church's perspective,
and to leave the Catholic Church is a grave sin from the Catholic Church's perspective.

It's the same boat I'm stuck in.

I don't think salvation is a parlor trick, with God as an absolute machine - but we want to give God our best efforts in finding the Church, despite the wave of evil that has flooded both churches in different and similar ways.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpo on July 27, 2017, 05:07:55 PM
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Justin Kolodziej on July 27, 2017, 09:41:50 PM
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod)
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Agabus on July 27, 2017, 11:13:10 PM
Not to dismiss this discussion or any of the serious and not serious tangents attached to it, but I always kind of think it's funny that someone comes to OC.net and asks, "So, do you think I should be Orthodox? Or should I pursue this non-Orthodox option?"
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 28, 2017, 07:48:43 AM
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod)
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.

I think it is very strange. An infallible Pope judged the previous infallible Pope???
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 28, 2017, 08:46:59 AM
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod)
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.

I think it is very strange. An infallible Pope judged the previous infallible Pope???
When I was Catholic this bothered me. If a pope becomes a heretic he ceases to be pope. To be deemed a heretic he has to judeged, but he has no earthly superior so he can only be judged by another Pope. All Catholics are required to give assent to the popes teachings even if they aren't considered infallible. So, if a pope is teaching error you as a catholic are obligated to assent to error except that the catholic church teaches ( or at least used to) that error has no rights. It can be maddening. I'm glad I'm done with it.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 28, 2017, 11:56:12 PM
Rome doesn't consider the faithful of the saps to be outside the church. Rome has even given instructions on how the saps is to keep baptismal records of those it baptises. They have an irregular relationship.
Autocorrect changed sspx to saps. My laptop is broken and I'm not used to typing on my phone.

Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?

I don't.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 29, 2017, 11:47:54 PM
Also, Ecumenical Councils have judged popes as heretics (the Sixth Ecumenical Council), so there.
However, according to Catholicism, popes are the judges of ecumenical councils and, to the best of my knowledge, popes have decried the anathema against Pope Honorius I and have since refused to accept it.


PS: curiously, only after the Great Schism did popes dare to adopt the name Honorious, and the first one was an anti-pope.
Can a Pope judge a previous Pope? Because one certainly tried:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod)
The worst part is that this horrendous (pun fully intended!) incident happened in a Rome that was still nominally part of the Church.

I thought that the painting when I glanced at the article was just a symbolic work of art... turns out they actually dragged the corpse and propped it up on a throne where they put the corpse on trial.

What the heck.

And what is funnier is that the next two popes annulled this synod, and then the next pope annulled the annulment.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Alpo on July 30, 2017, 07:39:46 AM
Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?

I don't.

That's very Finnish of you. We don't generally talk to anyone anywhere. We might have phones but we don't use them.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 30, 2017, 01:33:57 PM
Disclaimer: I don't have a phone.

How do you keep contact with people without a phone?

I don't.

That's very Finnish of you. We don't generally talk to anyone anywhere. We might have phones but we don't use them.

Maybe I should move.  I get a lot of flak over here for not having a phone. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 12:59:02 AM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
all you have to do is provide the rest of the quotes you are referring to  here... " neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to."
that is your problem
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 01:03:03 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on July 31, 2017, 04:07:01 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Are you sure True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance???

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 09:04:17 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Are you sure True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance???

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)
yes,it's debatable but  no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 31, 2017, 09:58:18 AM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
all you have to do is provide the rest of the quotes you are referring to  here... " neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to."
that is your problem

Why should I provide the text for quotes that you are using? Isn't that backwards?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: ConfusedRC on July 31, 2017, 10:00:00 AM
According to Rome, being the supporter of SSPX or member of Eastern Orthodox Church are all outside the Catholic Church and will end up in hell.
So that is mean I have to accept all the teaching of Vatican II, and Novos Ordo Mass otherwise I will end up in hell.

That's not what Rome teaches. That's what Sedes teach. Rome teaches you can be a non-Christian and be saved, under certain conditions. Pope Francis said even atheists can be saved.

Vatican II changed the historical teaching on salvation, and non-Christian religions.

But, the conditions for this to happen are almost impossible. I believe they call it "invincible ignorance." In the context of Catholicism, an atheist could only go to heaven if they had never been given the opportunity to learn about and convert to Christianity.
True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance

Are you sure True Catholicism rejects invincible ignorance???

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_(Catholic_theology)
yes,it's debatable but  no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Why would a Catholic debate a Catholic? Shouldn't Catholics be debating non-Catholics? :o
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 10:56:10 AM
You seem to be very confused as your name states, why would I tell anyone to return to a Church that has an anti Christ as a pope? I am telling people the Church of today that calls itself Catholic, is not Catholic..it’s anti Catholic filled with freemason homo liberals. There was an infiltration decades before Vatican 2. You can call it the concilliary Church, Vatican 2 sect..whatever you wish but it ain’t the true Catholic Church, I hope this clarifies things for you.

No, I'm not confused. I just don't want to give credence to your sedevacantist theory. During my time as a Roman Catholic, I experienced all of the different sects (except for the Charismatic one...didn't want to have anything to do with that), including the attendance at a sedevacantist parish. However, I quickly realized that out of all of the "explanations" for the depressing state of the RC, the sedevacantist theory was the worst one. How could people claim that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the real Church, and in the same breath, claim that the RC is still the true church but is going through a crisis because they have no pope. If you have no leader, I would say that the gates of hell prevailed! What other sign of victory would one need to admit defeat? Furthermore, the sedevacantist sect is riddled with priests with questionable holy orders.

Don't get me started on sedevacantists!
you are truly confused and should do more research and effort towards your salvation

I did my research, which is how I found the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Indefectibility (the promise of Christ to always be with His Church, and that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it) means that the Church will, until the end of time, remain essentially what she is.  The indefectibility of the Church requires that at least a remnant of the Church will exist until the end of the world, and that a true pope will never authoritatively teach error to the entire Church.  It does not exclude antipopes posing as popes (as we’ve had numerous times in the past, even in Rome) or a counterfeit sect that reduces the adherents of the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the last days.  This is precisely what is predicted to occur in the last days and what happened during the Arian crisis.   
St. Athanasius: "Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."2 
Further, it should be noted that the Church has defined that heretics are the gates of Hell which Our Lord mentioned in Matthew 16! 
Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”3 
Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”4 
St. Thomas Aquinas (+1262): “Wisdom may fill the hearts of the faithful, and put to silence the dread folly of heretics, fittingly referred to as the gates of Hell.”5 (Intro. To Catena Aurea.) 
 
Notice that heretics are the gates of Hell.  Heretics are not members of the Church.  That’s why a heretic could never be a pope.  The gates of Hell (heretics) could never have authority over the Church of Christ.  It’s not those who expose the heretical Vatican II antipopes who are asserting that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church; it’s those who obstinately defend them as popes, even though they can clearly be proven to be manifest heretics. 


Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”6 
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306:  "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."   
There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church that can be quoted which is contrary to the fact that there is presently a counterfeit sect which has reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes.  Those who assert that the Vatican II sect is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic Church officially endorses false religions and false doctrines.  This is impossible and would mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church

When I was attending a sedevacantist parish and doing research on sedevacantism, I remember frequenting another forum, and in that forum, there was a thread that listed "talking points" for sedevacantists to use when debating. Your discussion here is basically one big reference to that thread.

The problem with debating sedevacantists is that you take snippets of what the Church fathers said and neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to. You don't need to be a student with me in my doctoral research class (it's so boring, but I need to get back to studying while my kids are asleep) to know that this is simply bad research. Then, you will provide more snippets (with no context) to counter anything that I say. Thus, the cycle goes on and on and on...
all you have to do is provide the rest of the quotes you are referring to  here... " neglect the rest of the quotes or documents to which you are referring to."
that is your problem

Why should I provide the text for quotes that you are using? Isn't that backwards?

you are the one claiming that I have neglected something,it's up to you to prove that...but I suggest you don't waste your time because you won't be able to prove me wrong

I debate non catholics when it comes to trying to convert them, invincible ignorance is debatable ,  what is the point in discussing that topic with you...if I convince you on that issue would that help in your conversion?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 31, 2017, 12:22:05 PM
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here? 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 12:37:06 PM
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 31, 2017, 12:38:32 PM
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys

We prefer our hell to your heaven. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 31, 2017, 01:02:23 PM
The longer the thread grows the more childish it gets. I just hope that Anthony does not get confused by all this nonsense and makes a wise decision.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 31, 2017, 01:06:58 PM
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys
I doubt you'll convince the people here that they need to submit to the papacy and at the same time convince them that there is no pope. I really doubt that they'd accept this especially because it's a hard enough doctrine to swallow even if it hadn't failed. To most people it seems foolish that such an important office can be vacant for their entire lifetime, generations into the future indefinitely and still have to be subject to it for salvation. It seems superstitious. Your church no longer exists. You can't even prove your church exists. It is like larping.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 31, 2017, 01:11:10 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 31, 2017, 01:45:34 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Iconodule on July 31, 2017, 01:56:21 PM
Every bishop is a vicar of Christ.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 01:59:29 PM
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys

We prefer our hell to your heaven.
who is this we you are referring to? you are talking foolish, this is not an issue to joke about
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 02:00:47 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches? 

Dear sedevacantist, in this and other posts in this thread you have broken the rules of this board: not proper titling of Pope Francis, crossing the limits of polemics allowed for the public fora. I am giving you 30% warning and if you are going to continue posting in such manner in this thread, I will be forced to lock it.

Dominika,
Global Moderator
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on July 31, 2017, 02:05:58 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 02:35:27 PM
...no point in debating it with you since you are not Catholic

Then why are you here?
the issue of invincible ignorance or baptism of desire are heated debates within Catholic forums, what is the point of discussing those issues with non catholics..I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...the papacy, filioque..why the orthodox are wrong concerning remarriage etc...once you have converted and become Catholic then I would debate those other issues...baby steps with you guys
I doubt you'll convince the people here that they need to submit to the papacy and at the same time convince them that there is no pope. I really doubt that they'd accept this especially because it's a hard enough doctrine to swallow even if it hadn't failed. To most people it seems foolish that such an important office can be vacant for their entire lifetime, generations into the future indefinitely and still have to be subject to it for salvation. It seems superstitious. Your church no longer exists. You can't even prove your church exists. It is like larping.
The papacy is biblical,if you don't believe that then you have not put in enough effort. Francis is no Catholic,this should be clear to anyone of good will. We are in a crisis, the bible states when Christ returns will he find any faith?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

 He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 02:44:26 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

 He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:


“So, with every reason for doubting removed, can it be lawful for anyone to reject any of those truths without thereby sending himself headlong into open heresy? without thereby separating himself from the Church and in one sweeping act repudiating the entirety of Christian doctrine?… he who dissents in even one point from divinely received truths has most truly cast off the faith completely, since he refuses to revere God as the supreme truth and proper motive of faith.”

Notice, Pope Leo XIII teaches that anyone who dissents from a Catholic teaching sends or delivers himself (se det in the Latin) by that dissent itself (hoc ipso) into open heresy (in apertam haeresim).  Herein we find the true teaching of the Catholic Church,   This teaching of the Magisterium proves that the individual’s dissent from Catholic teaching (not a churchman’s declaration that one has dissented) sends a person headlong into open heresy.  It is thus undeniable that the offense of heresy (or what Pope Leo XIII calls “open heresy”) occurs with the dissent itself on the part of the person, prior to any declaration by a Church authority or any declaration by the individual of membership in a non-Catholic sect.  The dissent itself separates the person completely from the Church in one sweeping act.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Vanhyo on July 31, 2017, 03:25:57 PM
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 04:20:38 PM
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 31, 2017, 05:51:57 PM
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis
How many generations did the Catholic Church go without a hierarchy during the Arian crisis?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 31, 2017, 06:47:09 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

I think that a significant amount of media distortion has really hurt Pope Francis, and although he is too liberal, and certainly he is incorrect as it pertains to the whole Amoris Laetitia issue, as well as some of the things he has said, a lot of the perception of him from the media is invalid - for example, the fact that he taught that atheists can get to heaven is absolutely bogus and comes from eye-candy media titles from what I can tell.

I really think the mainstream media - and unfortunately the majority of Cradle Roman Catholics who don't care about their beliefs whatsoever - have this perception that Catholics beliefs and morals are subject to cultural change based on whatever the Pope says - but rarely do they understand the unreformability of Catholic dogma and morals which is even used in John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is something that I am glad the Orthodox Church understands - that morals and beliefs cannot be changed.

It really causes me to cringe when I read an article which states "Catholics no longer have to believe in Limbo!", or "Catholics are no longer required to believe Luther was a heretic!", or "Catholics no longer have to believe in indulgences!", etc.

With that being said, I think it is really daring to suggest that there is no Pope right now, simply because he publicly teaches ideas that are contrary to the Catholic Church.

Do I need to remind you that Pope John XXII publicly taught that the Beatific Vision was nonsense, and he was rebuked and corrected by his Cardinals? It doesn't mean that the seat has been empty during those periods of time!

As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"

Popes are seldom infallible according to the Catholic Church, and you should read Vatican I very carefully.
Although I do have my suspicions regarding the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, I myself can't really be the judge of whether or not the Pope is actually the Pope.

As Saint John Chrysostom said, "Is it Tradition? Ask no more."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 31, 2017, 08:56:35 PM
I'm here to convert non Catholics to the true faith...
And I, all along, thought that you were here to read to us the riot act.  ::)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 31, 2017, 09:03:04 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
(http://orig12.deviantart.net/3a37/f/2012/326/a/3/a33a941dc4890c1980f22c026d1ce132-d4a9mzb.jpg)
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on July 31, 2017, 09:25:34 PM
Hey Sharbel,
as a Maronite Catholic, how do you feel about the Bishops of the Maronite Church changing the Maronite Liturgy to conform to modern day Novus Ordo practices?
i.e., communion in the hand, the priest facing the people, more modern music, etc.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on July 31, 2017, 09:34:29 PM
Hey Sharbel,
as a Maronite Catholic, how do you feel about the Bishops of the Maronite Church changing the Maronite Liturgy to conform to modern day Novus Ordo practices?
i.e., communion in the hand, the priest facing the people, more modern music, etc.
How can it be so, when the Precious Body is intincted into the Precious Blood for communion?  I don't know about that.  Patriarch Beshara Rai, talking to priests in the US a few months ago, stressed our liturgical traditions.  At least our priest was very glad at his views on the Divine Liturgy, though he pointed out that the priests of Lebanese origin were much less so.  ???

Our priest dreads facing the people, but that's only on Sundays because of the shape of the altar steps.  During the week, in the chapel, he faces East.

We do have most hymns from our tradition, some we sing in Syriac Aramaic or Arabic, but every now and then a dreadful hymn pops up, regrettably.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 09:51:58 PM
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis
How many generations did the Catholic Church go without a hierarchy during the Arian crisis?
St. Athanasius:

"Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, theyare the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Luke 18:8- “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he

find, think you, faith on earth?”

In the Gospel, Our Lord Jesus Christ informs us th

at in the last days the true Faith would hardly

be found on the earth. He tells us that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of

desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound

that, if it were possible, even the elect would

be deceived (Mt. 24:24).

Matthew 24:15- “

When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which

was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place

: he that readeth let

him understand.”

Matthew 24:24-25- “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show

great signs and wonders,

insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect

. Behold I

have told it to you, beforehand.”


2 Thess. 2:3-5- “Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come

a revolt

[apostasy] first, and the man of sin be reve

aled, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and

is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped,

so that he sitteth in the

temple of God

, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was

yet with you, I told you these things?”

In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might

be seeing the beginning of the evils which will

fully come to pass in the last days.

Pope St. Pius X,

E Supremi

(# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “...

there is good reason to fear lest this

great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils

which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the

‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks

(2 Thess. 2:3).”

1

The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s

physical structures,

in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15).

It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

In 2 Thessalonians 2, St. Paul speaks of the last days being characterized by a great apostasy that

will be the worst ever – even worse than wa

s experienced in the Arian crisis in the 4

th

century, in

which an authentically Catholic priest was hardly to be found.

Fr. William Jurgens: “At one point in the Church’s history, only a few years before

Gregory’s [Nazianz] present preaching (A.D. 380),

perhaps the number of Catholic

bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was

no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total.

Had doctrine been

determined by popularity, today we should al

l be deniers of Christ and opponents of the

Spirit.”

2

Fr. William Jurgens: “

In the time of the Emperor Valens (4

th

century), Basil was

virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of

his see

... If it has no other importance for mode

rn man, a knowledge of the history of

Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of

popularity and numbers in shaping and mainta

ining doctrine: else, we should long since

have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and At

hanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call

ourselves after Arius.”

3

St. Gregory Nazianz (+380),

Against the Arians

: “Where are they who revile us for our

poverty and pride themselves in their riches?

They who define the Church by numbers

and scorn the little flock?”

4

If the Arian crisis – just a prelude to the Great

Apostasy – was this extensive, how extensive will

the Great Apostasy foretold by Our Lord and Saint Paul be?

Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the

majority of her members, high and

low, will become so perverted.

The Church will sink

deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of

Peter and the other Apostles to have expired

. But, after this, she will be victoriously

exalted in the sight of all doubters.”
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 09:56:58 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

I think that a significant amount of media distortion has really hurt Pope Francis, and although he is too liberal, and certainly he is incorrect as it pertains to the whole Amoris Laetitia issue, as well as some of the things he has said, a lot of the perception of him from the media is invalid - for example, the fact that he taught that atheists can get to heaven is absolutely bogus and comes from eye-candy media titles from what I can tell.

I really think the mainstream media - and unfortunately the majority of Cradle Roman Catholics who don't care about their beliefs whatsoever - have this perception that Catholics beliefs and morals are subject to cultural change based on whatever the Pope says - but rarely do they understand the unreformability of Catholic dogma and morals which is even used in John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is something that I am glad the Orthodox Church understands - that morals and beliefs cannot be changed.

It really causes me to cringe when I read an article which states "Catholics no longer have to believe in Limbo!", or "Catholics are no longer required to believe Luther was a heretic!", or "Catholics no longer have to believe in indulgences!", etc.

With that being said, I think it is really daring to suggest that there is no Pope right now, simply because he publicly teaches ideas that are contrary to the Catholic Church.

Do I need to remind you that Pope John XXII publicly taught that the Beatific Vision was nonsense, and he was rebuked and corrected by his Cardinals? It doesn't mean that the seat has been empty during those periods of time!

As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"

Popes are seldom infallible according to the Catholic Church, and you should read Vatican I very carefully.
Although I do have my suspicions regarding the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, I myself can't really be the judge of whether or not the Pope is actually the Pope.

As Saint John Chrysostom said, "Is it Tradition? Ask no more."
you wrote "As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"
I would be interested to get the exact quote

Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church…” St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Catholic Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306 :  The Catholic Teaching that a heretic cannot be a valid pope and loses the papal office automatically

as for Borgolio here's so much I wouldn't know where to start
Francis’ Heresies on the Jews

Jews reject that Jesus Christ is God, but Jesus Christ says in John 8:24: “For if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sin.”

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that you must believe in Jesus Christ and have the Catholic faith for salvation.  It teaches that it’s a mortal sin to observe or practice Judaism.  But Francis endorses the false religion of Judaism and prays in Jewish synagogues:

    Francis, Conversations With Jorge Bergoglio, p. 208: “Not long ago I was in a synagogue taking part in a ceremony.  I prayed a lot and, while praying, I heard a phrase from one of the books of wisdom that had slipped my mind: ‘Lord, may I bear mockery in silence.’  It gave me much peace and joy.” Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 188: “The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People.  Nowhere does it say: ‘You lost the game, now it is our turn.’  It is a recognition of the People of Israel.”

This clearly means that Francis holds that people who reject Jesus Christ are the chosen people in God’s sight.  This is a blasphemy against God.

    Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 37: “There also exists the ministerial intercession of a rabbi or a priest who prays or asks for the health of another and it is granted.  What gives credibility to a person who is healing according to the law of God is simplicity, humility and the absence of a spectacle.”

So Francis believes that Jewish rabbis have a true spiritual ministry of intercession “according to the law of God”.

    Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 220:  Francis speaks to Jewish Rabbi Skorka: “I did not forget how you invited me twice to pray and to speak in the synagogue, and I invited you to speak to my seminarians about values.”

In the cathedral in Buenos Aires, Argentina on April 15, 1998 Francis held an interreligious service to honor deceased Jews.  During this meeting, Francis said to the Jews:

    “… we are all brothers, because we have the seal of God in our hearts.”
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on July 31, 2017, 10:19:55 PM
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis
How many generations did the Catholic Church go without a hierarchy during the Arian crisis?
St. Athanasius:

"Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, theyare the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Luke 18:8- “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he

find, think you, faith on earth?”

In the Gospel, Our Lord Jesus Christ informs us th

at in the last days the true Faith would hardly

be found on the earth. He tells us that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of

desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound

that, if it were possible, even the elect would

be deceived (Mt. 24:24).

Matthew 24:15- “

When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which

was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place

: he that readeth let

him understand.”

Matthew 24:24-25- “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show

great signs and wonders,

insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect

. Behold I

have told it to you, beforehand.”


2 Thess. 2:3-5- “Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come

a revolt

[apostasy] first, and the man of sin be reve

aled, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and

is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped,

so that he sitteth in the

temple of God

, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was

yet with you, I told you these things?”

In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might

be seeing the beginning of the evils which will

fully come to pass in the last days.

Pope St. Pius X,

E Supremi

(# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “...

there is good reason to fear lest this

great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils

which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the

‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks

(2 Thess. 2:3).”

1

The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s

physical structures,

in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15).

It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

In 2 Thessalonians 2, St. Paul speaks of the last days being characterized by a great apostasy that

will be the worst ever – even worse than wa

s experienced in the Arian crisis in the 4

th

century, in

which an authentically Catholic priest was hardly to be found.

Fr. William Jurgens: “At one point in the Church’s history, only a few years before

Gregory’s [Nazianz] present preaching (A.D. 380),

perhaps the number of Catholic

bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was

no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total.

Had doctrine been

determined by popularity, today we should al

l be deniers of Christ and opponents of the

Spirit.”

2

Fr. William Jurgens: “

In the time of the Emperor Valens (4

th

century), Basil was

virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of

his see

... If it has no other importance for mode

rn man, a knowledge of the history of

Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of

popularity and numbers in shaping and mainta

ining doctrine: else, we should long since

have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and At

hanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call

ourselves after Arius.”

3

St. Gregory Nazianz (+380),

Against the Arians

: “Where are they who revile us for our

poverty and pride themselves in their riches?

They who define the Church by numbers

and scorn the little flock?”

4

If the Arian crisis – just a prelude to the Great

Apostasy – was this extensive, how extensive will

the Great Apostasy foretold by Our Lord and Saint Paul be?

Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the

majority of her members, high and

low, will become so perverted.

The Church will sink

deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of

Peter and the other Apostles to have expired

. But, after this, she will be victoriously

exalted in the sight of all doubters.”
The St Athanasius quote is misused by many. The SSPX uses it to defend their position too. I've heard that schismatic Orthodox groups use it as well. You quote scripture to back up your unique interpretation like a protestant would, not convincing. I'm not so much scorning your numbers as I am pointing out that your church doesn't exist. It's not that you have a small hierarchy or priesthood. It is just not there. Do you have even 1 bishop that rejects the new mass and Vatican II?  You don't even have 1%. Zero is not small numbers, it's non existent. Where are your 1 to 3 percent now? Do you honestly believe that if you were the only true Catholic on earth right now that the Catholic church would still have not defected?
You shouldn't put your trust in prophecies, you're not required by the Catholic Church to believe in them. Why should we?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on July 31, 2017, 10:46:04 PM
@sedevacantis
Quote
Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”
how is this helping you ?

Quote
Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times
You see ? You do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.

Do you not see the absurdity of your position ?
no what is absurd is to believe that Francis is a Catholic, what is equally absurd is to deny the papacy, the fact of the matter is there is an anti pope in Rome, look into the arian crisis
How many generations did the Catholic Church go without a hierarchy during the Arian crisis?
St. Athanasius:

"Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, theyare the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."

Luke 18:8- “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he

find, think you, faith on earth?”

In the Gospel, Our Lord Jesus Christ informs us th

at in the last days the true Faith would hardly

be found on the earth. He tells us that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of

desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound

that, if it were possible, even the elect would

be deceived (Mt. 24:24).

Matthew 24:15- “

When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which

was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place

: he that readeth let

him understand.”

Matthew 24:24-25- “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show

great signs and wonders,

insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect

. Behold I

have told it to you, beforehand.”


2 Thess. 2:3-5- “Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come

a revolt

[apostasy] first, and the man of sin be reve

aled, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and

is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped,

so that he sitteth in the

temple of God

, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was

yet with you, I told you these things?”

In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might

be seeing the beginning of the evils which will

fully come to pass in the last days.

Pope St. Pius X,

E Supremi

(# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “...

there is good reason to fear lest this

great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils

which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the

‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks

(2 Thess. 2:3).”

1

The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s

physical structures,

in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15).

It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

In 2 Thessalonians 2, St. Paul speaks of the last days being characterized by a great apostasy that

will be the worst ever – even worse than wa

s experienced in the Arian crisis in the 4

th

century, in

which an authentically Catholic priest was hardly to be found.

Fr. William Jurgens: “At one point in the Church’s history, only a few years before

Gregory’s [Nazianz] present preaching (A.D. 380),

perhaps the number of Catholic

bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was

no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total.

Had doctrine been

determined by popularity, today we should al

l be deniers of Christ and opponents of the

Spirit.”

2

Fr. William Jurgens: “

In the time of the Emperor Valens (4

th

century), Basil was

virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of

his see

... If it has no other importance for mode

rn man, a knowledge of the history of

Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of

popularity and numbers in shaping and mainta

ining doctrine: else, we should long since

have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and At

hanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call

ourselves after Arius.”

3

St. Gregory Nazianz (+380),

Against the Arians

: “Where are they who revile us for our

poverty and pride themselves in their riches?

They who define the Church by numbers

and scorn the little flock?”

4

If the Arian crisis – just a prelude to the Great

Apostasy – was this extensive, how extensive will

the Great Apostasy foretold by Our Lord and Saint Paul be?

Prophecy of St. Nicholas of Fluh (1417-1487): “The Church will be punished because the

majority of her members, high and

low, will become so perverted.

The Church will sink

deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of

Peter and the other Apostles to have expired

. But, after this, she will be victoriously

exalted in the sight of all doubters.”
The St Athanasius quote is misused by many. The SSPX uses it to defend their position too. I've heard that schismatic Orthodox groups use it as well. You quote scripture to back up your unique interpretation like a protestant would, not convincing. I'm not so much scorning your numbers as I am pointing out that your church doesn't exist. It's not that you have a small hierarchy or priesthood. It is just not there. Do you have even 1 bishop that rejects the new mass and Vatican II?  You don't even have 1%. Zero is not small numbers, it's non existent. Where are your 1 to 3 percent now? Do you honestly believe that if you were the only true Catholic on earth right now that the Catholic church would still have not defected?
You shouldn't put your trust in prophecies, you're not required by the Catholic Church to believe in them. Why should we?
you don't know what you are talking about, Arch Bishop Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops decades ago, I'm not forcing you to believe in prophecies, we have the bible..is that not convincing enough? do some research
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 01, 2017, 12:01:51 AM
I have a lot of respect for Abp. Lefebvre. I even used his name for one of my sons middle name. The bishops he consecrated are not regular bishops, they perform the function of a bishop but they have no see. They aren't bishops in the regular sense. Even if this were not the case and they were part of the hierarchy, they are not sedevacantists.
I've met Bishop Fellay, he's a very kind man. Even he allows priests ordained in the new rite to come into the sspx without conditional ordination.
They recognize Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome. I don't know how they could be considered part of the hierarchy without somehow forming a new church as a result. They have been clear this is not their intention. Even their churches are called chapels for this reason, with a few exceptions.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 01, 2017, 12:24:23 AM
Sedevacantist,
I looked this up to show what I mean.
Quote
In the case of the episcopal consecrations for the Society of St. Pius X, nothing done applies to be called "schismatic." Though, yes, the act was disobedient (through force of events), no act conferring any "apostolic mission" was ever performed.

It is from the second to last paragraph in section G of "A canonical study of the 1988 consecrations" here's the link. http://sspx.org/en/canonical-study-1988-consecrations-3

No apostolic mission would mean no apostolic succession. That is why they can only operate with supplied jurisdiction due to the crisis.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Asteriktos on August 01, 2017, 02:35:21 AM
I always chuckle when Catholics quote St. Gregory the Theologian on ecclesiological matters :laugh:
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 01, 2017, 12:26:16 PM
I have a lot of respect for Abp. Lefebvre. I even used his name for one of my sons middle name. The bishops he consecrated are not regular bishops, they perform the function of a bishop but they have no see. They aren't bishops in the regular sense. Even if this were not the case and they were part of the hierarchy, they are not sedevacantists.
I've met Bishop Fellay, he's a very kind man. Even he allows priests ordained in the new rite to come into the sspx without conditional ordination.
They recognize Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome. I don't know how they could be considered part of the hierarchy without somehow forming a new church as a result. They have been clear this is not their intention. Even their churches are called chapels for this reason, with a few exceptions.
I'm well aware they are not sedevacantists, the point is there are traditional Catholic bishops, CMRI for example ...that hold on to the traditional Catholic faith ...doesn't mean they are perfect..Fellay I don't trust
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 01, 2017, 12:59:29 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

I think that a significant amount of media distortion has really hurt Pope Francis, and although he is too liberal, and certainly he is incorrect as it pertains to the whole Amoris Laetitia issue, as well as some of the things he has said, a lot of the perception of him from the media is invalid - for example, the fact that he taught that atheists can get to heaven is absolutely bogus and comes from eye-candy media titles from what I can tell.

I really think the mainstream media - and unfortunately the majority of Cradle Roman Catholics who don't care about their beliefs whatsoever - have this perception that Catholics beliefs and morals are subject to cultural change based on whatever the Pope says - but rarely do they understand the unreformability of Catholic dogma and morals which is even used in John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is something that I am glad the Orthodox Church understands - that morals and beliefs cannot be changed.

It really causes me to cringe when I read an article which states "Catholics no longer have to believe in Limbo!", or "Catholics are no longer required to believe Luther was a heretic!", or "Catholics no longer have to believe in indulgences!", etc.

With that being said, I think it is really daring to suggest that there is no Pope right now, simply because he publicly teaches ideas that are contrary to the Catholic Church.

Do I need to remind you that Pope John XXII publicly taught that the Beatific Vision was nonsense, and he was rebuked and corrected by his Cardinals? It doesn't mean that the seat has been empty during those periods of time!

As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"

Popes are seldom infallible according to the Catholic Church, and you should read Vatican I very carefully.
Although I do have my suspicions regarding the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, I myself can't really be the judge of whether or not the Pope is actually the Pope.

As Saint John Chrysostom said, "Is it Tradition? Ask no more."
you wrote "As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"
I would be interested to get the exact quote

Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church…” St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Catholic Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306 :  The Catholic Teaching that a heretic cannot be a valid pope and loses the papal office automatically

as for Borgolio here's so much I wouldn't know where to start
Francis’ Heresies on the Jews

Jews reject that Jesus Christ is God, but Jesus Christ says in John 8:24: “For if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sin.”

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that you must believe in Jesus Christ and have the Catholic faith for salvation.  It teaches that it’s a mortal sin to observe or practice Judaism.  But Francis endorses the false religion of Judaism and prays in Jewish synagogues:

    Francis, Conversations With Jorge Bergoglio, p. 208: “Not long ago I was in a synagogue taking part in a ceremony.  I prayed a lot and, while praying, I heard a phrase from one of the books of wisdom that had slipped my mind: ‘Lord, may I bear mockery in silence.’  It gave me much peace and joy.” Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 188: “The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People.  Nowhere does it say: ‘You lost the game, now it is our turn.’  It is a recognition of the People of Israel.”

This clearly means that Francis holds that people who reject Jesus Christ are the chosen people in God’s sight.  This is a blasphemy against God.

    Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 37: “There also exists the ministerial intercession of a rabbi or a priest who prays or asks for the health of another and it is granted.  What gives credibility to a person who is healing according to the law of God is simplicity, humility and the absence of a spectacle.”

So Francis believes that Jewish rabbis have a true spiritual ministry of intercession “according to the law of God”.

    Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 220:  Francis speaks to Jewish Rabbi Skorka: “I did not forget how you invited me twice to pray and to speak in the synagogue, and I invited you to speak to my seminarians about values.”

In the cathedral in Buenos Aires, Argentina on April 15, 1998 Francis held an interreligious service to honor deceased Jews.  During this meeting, Francis said to the Jews:

    “… we are all brothers, because we have the seal of God in our hearts.”

According to Roman Church Law, it is up to the Bishops to judge if the Pope is an ipso facto heretic...it doesn't give people the right to break communion with the Pope whenever they feel he is deviating from the faith.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/2917-can-the-church-judge-a-heretical-pope

As for your statements about the Jews, I recommend you read Romans 11. I also wonder why God would ignore the prayers of people outside the Roman Catholic Church... How would people be able to convert?

I heard the original quote from Father Hesse when I was looking into the SSPX. I respectfully think he was wrong, despite his brilliance.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 01, 2017, 03:29:00 PM
Perhaps there is a pope in an underwater city somewhere.
Nope. It's all very simple. His name is Francis, he is the bishop of Rome and from Argentina. You all know him from the media. Unfortunately, he no longer calls himself Patriarch of the West.
Search no longer, no need for sedis or underwater cities.
The vicar of Christ exists on Earth, it's all obvious.
It's not that simple, Francis is an apostate heretic from hell, do I need to post all the non catholic things he does and teaches?
No. Who are you to judge that? What kind of authority do you have? None, I would bet. Your position is a dead end, and you know it. But really, come back! If you prefer the forma extraordinaria, fine, I am with you. No need to pursue this nonsense.
The Catholic Church teaches that only those who are baptized and profess the true faith can be considered members of the Catholic Church (see Mystici Corporis of Pius XII).  Since Francis definitely does not profess the true faith,but a false faith, he cannot be considered a member of the Catholic Church or the pope. , Pope Leo XIII teaches the following:


 Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 13), June 29, 1896: “You are not to be looked upon as holding the true Catholic faith if you do not teach that the faith of Rome is to be held.”

Francis does not teach that the faith of Rome (the Catholic faith) is to be held.  He teaches the opposite.  He has explicitly rejected converting atheists, Jews, schismatics and others many times

He therefore teaches that non-Catholics do not need to hold the faith of Rome.  According to Catholic teaching, he is not to be considered a Catholic.  It’s that simple.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 23), June 29, 1943: “For not every offense, although it may be a grave evil, is such as by its very own nature [suapte natura] to sever a man from the Body of the Church [ab Ecclesiae Corpore], as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896:

I think that a significant amount of media distortion has really hurt Pope Francis, and although he is too liberal, and certainly he is incorrect as it pertains to the whole Amoris Laetitia issue, as well as some of the things he has said, a lot of the perception of him from the media is invalid - for example, the fact that he taught that atheists can get to heaven is absolutely bogus and comes from eye-candy media titles from what I can tell.

I really think the mainstream media - and unfortunately the majority of Cradle Roman Catholics who don't care about their beliefs whatsoever - have this perception that Catholics beliefs and morals are subject to cultural change based on whatever the Pope says - but rarely do they understand the unreformability of Catholic dogma and morals which is even used in John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is something that I am glad the Orthodox Church understands - that morals and beliefs cannot be changed.

It really causes me to cringe when I read an article which states "Catholics no longer have to believe in Limbo!", or "Catholics are no longer required to believe Luther was a heretic!", or "Catholics no longer have to believe in indulgences!", etc.

With that being said, I think it is really daring to suggest that there is no Pope right now, simply because he publicly teaches ideas that are contrary to the Catholic Church.

Do I need to remind you that Pope John XXII publicly taught that the Beatific Vision was nonsense, and he was rebuked and corrected by his Cardinals? It doesn't mean that the seat has been empty during those periods of time!

As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"

Popes are seldom infallible according to the Catholic Church, and you should read Vatican I very carefully.
Although I do have my suspicions regarding the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI, I myself can't really be the judge of whether or not the Pope is actually the Pope.

As Saint John Chrysostom said, "Is it Tradition? Ask no more."
you wrote "As Pope Pius IX said when asked what would happen if a Pope taught heresy, and he said "Well, you just don't follow them!"
I would be interested to get the exact quote

Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church…” St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Catholic Doctor of the Church, The Catholic Controversy, pp. 305-306 :  The Catholic Teaching that a heretic cannot be a valid pope and loses the papal office automatically

as for Borgolio here's so much I wouldn't know where to start
Francis’ Heresies on the Jews

Jews reject that Jesus Christ is God, but Jesus Christ says in John 8:24: “For if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sin.”

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches that you must believe in Jesus Christ and have the Catholic faith for salvation.  It teaches that it’s a mortal sin to observe or practice Judaism.  But Francis endorses the false religion of Judaism and prays in Jewish synagogues:

    Francis, Conversations With Jorge Bergoglio, p. 208: “Not long ago I was in a synagogue taking part in a ceremony.  I prayed a lot and, while praying, I heard a phrase from one of the books of wisdom that had slipped my mind: ‘Lord, may I bear mockery in silence.’  It gave me much peace and joy.” Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 188: “The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People.  Nowhere does it say: ‘You lost the game, now it is our turn.’  It is a recognition of the People of Israel.”

This clearly means that Francis holds that people who reject Jesus Christ are the chosen people in God’s sight.  This is a blasphemy against God.

    Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 37: “There also exists the ministerial intercession of a rabbi or a priest who prays or asks for the health of another and it is granted.  What gives credibility to a person who is healing according to the law of God is simplicity, humility and the absence of a spectacle.”

So Francis believes that Jewish rabbis have a true spiritual ministry of intercession “according to the law of God”.

    Francis, On Heaven and Earth, p. 220:  Francis speaks to Jewish Rabbi Skorka: “I did not forget how you invited me twice to pray and to speak in the synagogue, and I invited you to speak to my seminarians about values.”

In the cathedral in Buenos Aires, Argentina on April 15, 1998 Francis held an interreligious service to honor deceased Jews.  During this meeting, Francis said to the Jews:

    “… we are all brothers, because we have the seal of God in our hearts.”

According to Roman Church Law, it is up to the Bishops to judge if the Pope is an ipso facto heretic...it doesn't give people the right to break communion with the Pope whenever they feel he is deviating from the faith.
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/2917-can-the-church-judge-a-heretical-pope

As for your statements about the Jews, I recommend you read Romans 11. I also wonder why God would ignore the prayers of people outside the Roman Catholic Church... How would people be able to convert?

I heard the original quote from Father Hesse when I was looking into the SSPX. I respectfully think he was wrong, despite his brilliance.
Siscoe is easily refuted,not sure I want to get into it here. Romans 11? I suggest you read the magisterium of the Church which condemns praying with Christ killing jews, do I have to get you those quotes?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 01, 2017, 04:49:45 PM
Siscoe is easily refuted,not sure I want to get into it here. Romans 11? I suggest you read the magisterium of the Church which condemns praying with Christ killing jews, do I have to get you those quotes?

Yeah, those Jews are the cause of all the worlds problems, and only the Jews are responsibility for killing Christ, and not the Romans or Pontius Pilate.
Besides the fact that Christ was a Jew, the Virgin Mary was a Jew, and in fact all of the Apostles were Jewish.

I mean, do you seriously believe that all Jewish people have the guilt of killing Jesus Christ because of their ethnicity? Seriously?

Leave your antisemitism away from Christian talks please, and I love how you completely ignored the Bible to show how your position was right.

It seems you have a bad case of prelest which I would analyze if I were you.

P.S. : the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church has condemned attending Jewish liturgy and prayer services, as well as partaking in the works of the Mosaic Law - it hasn't condemned praying for the deceased of those who died outside the Church, on the contrary, as well as visiting a Synagogue when it isn't in prayer services.

After all, did not Saint Paul visit a Pagan temple?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 01, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Hey Sharbel,
as a Maronite Catholic, how do you feel about the Bishops of the Maronite Church changing the Maronite Liturgy to conform to modern day Novus Ordo practices?
i.e., communion in the hand, the priest facing the people, more modern music, etc.
How can it be so, when the Precious Body is intincted into the Precious Blood for communion?  I don't know about that.  Patriarch Beshara Rai, talking to priests in the US a few months ago, stressed our liturgical traditions.  At least our priest was very glad at his views on the Divine Liturgy, though he pointed out that the priests of Lebanese origin were much less so.  ???

Our priest dreads facing the people, but that's only on Sundays because of the shape of the altar steps.  During the week, in the chapel, he faces East.

We do have most hymns from our tradition, some we sing in Syriac Aramaic or Arabic, but every now and then a dreadful hymn pops up, regrettably.

I attended with my family a Maronite liturgy for Pascha in Cleveland (as I was more convinced of the Catholic position at that point in time, but I am still not sure which position is right), and although it was prettier than a typical Novus Ordo Roman Mass, I found it weird that the priest was facing the people during the Mass for example - and I found that other American Maronite liturgies elsewhere have really been modernized unfortunately.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 01, 2017, 05:01:20 PM
Sedevacantist,
I agree that the recent popes are out of line with Rome's past teachings. I came to a point where I had to decide. Either I had to accept sedevacantism or accept that the Roman Catholic church was not the divine institution it claimed to be. I'm not a fan of any of the popes from during or after V2. I don't think there is a more corrupt church than the mainstream RC church. They seem to behind every wrong cause.
Sedevacantism to me in it's current state seemed to me to mean that the church defected. It may have been a better option decades ago. In another hundred years this position will be even less believable.
The Church cannot defect. So either Jesus was refering to another church or Catholicism was wrong in it's previous papal claims. Catholicism doesn't allow for the church to be wrong in these matters so I left.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 01, 2017, 05:06:01 PM
Siscoe is easily refuted,not sure I want to get into it here. Romans 11? I suggest you read the magisterium of the Church which condemns praying with Christ killing jews, do I have to get you those quotes?

Yeah, those Jews are the cause of all the worlds problems, and only the Jews are responsibility for killing Christ, and not the Romans or Pontius Pilate.
Besides the fact that Christ was a Jew, the Virgin Mary was a Jew, and in fact all of the Apostles were Jewish.

I mean, do you seriously believe that all Jewish people have the guilt of killing Jesus Christ because of their ethnicity? Seriously?

Leave your antisemitism away from Christian talks please, and I love how you completely ignored the Bible to show how your position was right.

It seems you have a bad case of prelest which I would analyze if I were you.

P.S. : the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church has condemned attending Jewish liturgy and prayer services, as well as partaking in the works of the Mosaic Law - it hasn't condemned praying for the deceased of those who died outside the Church, on the contrary, as well as visiting a Synagogue when it isn't in prayer services.

After all, did not Saint Paul visit a Pagan temple?
Judaism now is a different religion than Jesus and Mary were. He wasn't talking about ethnicity. He was talking about prayer. Jew has more than one meaning. Are we sure that Mary was the same ethinicity as modern Jews?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 01, 2017, 08:05:33 PM
Sedevacantist,
I agree that the recent popes are out of line with Rome's past teachings. I came to a point where I had to decide. Either I had to accept sedevacantism or accept that the Roman Catholic church was not the divine institution it claimed to be. I'm not a fan of any of the popes from during or after V2. I don't think there is a more corrupt church than the mainstream RC church. They seem to behind every wrong cause.
Sedevacantism to me in it's current state seemed to me to mean that the church defected. It may have been a better option decades ago. In another hundred years this position will be even less believable.
The Church cannot defect. So either Jesus was refering to another church or Catholicism was wrong in it's previous papal claims. Catholicism doesn't allow for the church to be wrong in these matters so I left.
brother Servulus, I don' believe the true Church can defect..have you looked into the life of Padre Pio? was he part of the Church of Christ
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 02, 2017, 01:31:51 AM
Siscoe is easily refuted,not sure I want to get into it here. Romans 11? I suggest you read the magisterium of the Church which condemns praying with Christ killing jews, do I have to get you those quotes?

Yeah, those Jews are the cause of all the worlds problems, and only the Jews are responsibility for killing Christ, and not the Romans or Pontius Pilate.
Besides the fact that Christ was a Jew, the Virgin Mary was a Jew, and in fact all of the Apostles were Jewish.

I mean, do you seriously believe that all Jewish people have the guilt of killing Jesus Christ because of their ethnicity? Seriously?

Leave your antisemitism away from Christian talks please, and I love how you completely ignored the Bible to show how your position was right.

It seems you have a bad case of prelest which I would analyze if I were you.

P.S. : the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church has condemned attending Jewish liturgy and prayer services, as well as partaking in the works of the Mosaic Law - it hasn't condemned praying for the deceased of those who died outside the Church, on the contrary, as well as visiting a Synagogue when it isn't in prayer services.

After all, did not Saint Paul visit a Pagan temple?
Judaism now is a different religion than Jesus and Mary were. He wasn't talking about ethnicity. He was talking about prayer. Jew has more than one meaning. Are we sure that Mary was the same ethinicity as modern Jews?

He stated that Pope Francis has prayed with those "Christ-killing Jews."
Even if we clearly disconnect contemporary Israelis / Jewish people from the Biblical Israelites / Jews, he himself is drawing a connection between the two that seems rooted in antisemitism.

I find it astonishing that he is drawing the connection - either religiously or ethnically - between the Pharisees that killed Jesus and contemporary Jews.
Should we assume that all atheists are secretly supporters of the Soviet Union's persecution of Christians?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 02, 2017, 01:41:50 AM
I see. Regardless of whether they are the same religion or ethinicity now they aren't Christ killers. He shouldn't use that terminology. I agree that a pope shouldn't participate in prayer services with them or any other non christian religion. What happened in Assisi was unfortunate.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 02, 2017, 12:28:03 PM
Siscoe is easily refuted,not sure I want to get into it here. Romans 11? I suggest you read the magisterium of the Church which condemns praying with Christ killing jews, do I have to get you those quotes?

Yeah, those Jews are the cause of all the worlds problems, and only the Jews are responsibility for killing Christ, and not the Romans or Pontius Pilate.
Besides the fact that Christ was a Jew, the Virgin Mary was a Jew, and in fact all of the Apostles were Jewish.

I mean, do you seriously believe that all Jewish people have the guilt of killing Jesus Christ because of their ethnicity? Seriously?

Leave your antisemitism away from Christian talks please, and I love how you completely ignored the Bible to show how your position was right.

It seems you have a bad case of prelest which I would analyze if I were you.

P.S. : the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox Church has condemned attending Jewish liturgy and prayer services, as well as partaking in the works of the Mosaic Law - it hasn't condemned praying for the deceased of those who died outside the Church, on the contrary, as well as visiting a Synagogue when it isn't in prayer services.

After all, did not Saint Paul visit a Pagan temple?
Judaism now is a different religion than Jesus and Mary were. He wasn't talking about ethnicity. He was talking about prayer. Jew has more than one meaning. Are we sure that Mary was the same ethinicity as modern Jews?

He stated that Pope Francis has prayed with those "Christ-killing Jews."
Even if we clearly disconnect contemporary Israelis / Jewish people from the Biblical Israelites / Jews, he himself is drawing a connection between the two that seems rooted in antisemitism.

I find it astonishing that he is drawing the connection - either religiously or ethnically - between the Pharisees that killed Jesus and contemporary Jews.
Should we assume that all atheists are secretly supporters of the Soviet Union's persecution of Christians?

I find it astonishing how you suggest the Romans as also responsible for the death of Christ, have you actually read the bible?

In this passage of the New Testament, where the entire
people was assembled, Saint Peter upbraids the Jews for
having killed Christ.
In addition we find in the “Acts of the Apostles” (Chapter V)
a passage where not only Saint Peter, but also the remaining
Apostles, categorically accuse the Council of Elders of Israel,
which was summoned by the priests, of the death of Christ:
“29. Then Peter and the other Apostles answered and said,
‘We ought to obey God rather than men. 30. The God of our
fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.’

We have thus here a common evidence of the Apostles,
which accused the Jews and not the Romans, of having killed
Christ.

Saint Paul, in his First Epistle to the Thessalonians (Chapter
II), says with reference to the Jews:
“15. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own
prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God,
and are contrary to all men.”62
In this verse Saint Paul describes the Jews in convincing
manner as “contrary to all men.” This is a truth that can be
doubted by no one who has thoroughly studied the mode of
thought and the illegal activities of the Jewish people.

However, it is very probable that, if Paul had lived today, he
would have been condemned as an enemy of the Jews, since he
publicly announced a truth that may never be announced to
any one, owing to the Jews and their accomplices within the
clergy. When, on his side, the protomartyr Saint Stephen
turned to the Jews of the Synagogue of the Freedmen, the
Cyreneans, the Alexandrians and then to those of Cilicia and
Asia, i.e. to Jews from different parts of the world, he said to
them in the presence of the high priest, the spiritual leader of
Israel:
“51. Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye
do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye.
52. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of
the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and
murderers!”63
The evidence of Saint Stephen thus agrees with that of the
Apostles and with that of Saint Paul, when he regards the Jews
in general, i.e. both those of Jerusalem and the remaining parts
of Judaea, as well as those who live in other parts of the world,
as a people responsible for deicide. All this is recorded in Holy
Scripture, where one does not find a single verse that accuses
the Romans of the murder.

In the Gospel of John, Chapter VIII, the Apostle relates that
Jesus, in a verbal dispute with some Jews, said to them (Verse
37):
“I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill Me,
because My word hath no place in you.”

What's also astonishing is you are not aware that the jews long after Christ were still enemies of the Church, you would surely call St Cyril an anti-Semite

In order to obtain knowledge of the conduct of Saint Cyril
towards the Jews, let us refer to the words of the Jewish
historian Graetz, which repeat faithfully the feelings of Jews
towards the Fathers and Saints of the Church:
“During the rulership of Theodosius in the East and
Honorius in the West, the Bishop of Alexandria, Cyril, who was
remarkable for his quarrelsomeness, his violence and his
impetuosity, tolerated the bad treatment of the Jews and
expelled them from the city. He aroused the Christian rabble
and incited them against the Jews. His excessive fanaticism
called his attention to the synagogues, of which he seized
possession in the name of Christianity. He drove the Jewish
inhabitants half-naked out of the city, which had previously
served them as home. Without his being able to be hindered,
Cyril gave their property free for plundering by the mob, as
indeed the latter always thirsts for enrichment.’’41
In its turn, the “Jewish-Castilian Encyclopaedia” already
quoted states under the word Cyril in this reference:
“Cyril (Saint) of Alexandria, Patriarch (376-444). Was
practically the master of Alexandria, from whence he drove out
the non-Christian populace. In the year 415 he commanded the
expulsion of the Jews, in spite of the protests of the Imperial
Prefect, Orestes.”
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 14, 2017, 09:17:28 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 14, 2017, 09:22:49 PM
Because the fear of hell that imposed by RC nun and layman on me, I accidentally joined SSPX, and became more anxious. I failed so many subjects because of SSPX.

I am really angry at RC.

Should I blame on RC and SSPX for failure of subjects and delayed of my studies?

Most of RCs I know they are not my real friends. They don't care about my current situation.
Only my Orthodox friends care about me and give me comfort.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on August 14, 2017, 10:27:27 PM
You definitely should not blame the Roman Church for the distortions inflicted on you by Roman Catholics.  They were fallen persons who were probably themselves wronged by other Roman Catholics to hold their distorted views.  Forgive them, forgive the Roman Church, let go of them, so that your new found love may not be tainted by bitterness.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 14, 2017, 10:32:35 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 14, 2017, 10:33:35 PM
You definitely should not blame the Roman Church for the distortions inflicted on you by Roman Catholics.  They were fallen persons who were probably themselves wronged by other Roman Catholics to hold their distorted views.  Forgive them, forgive the Roman Church, let go of them, so that your new found love may not be tainted by bitterness.

Thanks Sharbel. Happy feast of Dormition of the Mother of God.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 14, 2017, 10:42:12 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Where is your "true Catholic Church"??? The RC after Vatican II? or Your "Catholic Church" that does not have valid Pope and bishops?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 14, 2017, 10:48:06 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Where is your "true Catholic Church"??? The RC after Vatican II? or Your "Catholic Church" that does not have valid Pope and bishops?
Vatican 2 is not Catholic, how many times do I have to repeat myself..we are in the end times...The True Church of Christ does not have a true current pope today, the seat is vacant..it's happened in the past, why can't you accept that?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 14, 2017, 11:08:14 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 15, 2017, 12:34:52 AM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 15, 2017, 12:36:17 AM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.

What that means is, By so saying you accuse yourself.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 15, 2017, 09:31:08 AM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.

What that means is, By so saying you accuse yourself.
it means you're in trouble
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: CarolS on August 15, 2017, 10:03:37 AM
Anthony, I pray that you find peace and a place where you can work out your salvation.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 15, 2017, 07:57:56 PM
Anthony, I pray that you find peace and a place where you can work out your salvation.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on August 15, 2017, 11:41:49 PM
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208...
Do you grok the irony and contradiction of your quoting popes, when you do not believe that there's any pope currently?  For, if a Roman Catholic needs to be united with a pope, either you ceased to be a Roman Catholic or the Roman Catholic Church can persist even without a pope, making him unnecessary.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 15, 2017, 11:52:21 PM
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208...
Do you grok the irony and contradiction of your quoting popes, when you do not believe that there's any pope currently?  For, if a Roman Catholic needs to be united with a pope, either you ceased to be a Roman Catholic or the Roman Catholic Church can persist even without a pope, making him unnecessary.
you clearly can't grasp the plain truth that the Church is in a crisis, are you even aware that the bible predicts this?
there's no irony and no contradiction..just your  laziness to do some basic research

 In the Gospel, Our Lord Jesus Christ informs us th
at in the last days the true Faith would hardly
be found on the earth.  He tells us that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of
desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound
 that, if it were possible, even the elect would
be deceived (Mt. 24:24).   
Matthew 24:15- “
When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which
was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place
: he that readeth let
him understand.”
Matthew 24:24-25- “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show
great signs and wonders,
insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect
.  Behold I
have told it to you, beforehand.”

 Thess. 2:3-5- “Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come
a revolt
[apostasy] first, and the man of sin be reve
aled, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and
is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped,
so that he sitteth in the
temple of God
, shewing himself as if he were God.  Remember you not, that when I was
yet with you, I told you these things?”
In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might
be seeing the beginning of the evils which will
fully come to pass in the last days.
Pope St. Pius X,
E Supremi
 (# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “...
there is good reason to fear lest this
great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils
which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the
‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks
 (2 Thess. 2:3).”
1
The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s
physical structures,
in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15). 
It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 16, 2017, 12:03:45 AM
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208...
Do you grok the irony and contradiction of your quoting popes, when you do not believe that there's any pope currently?  For, if a Roman Catholic needs to be united with a pope, either you ceased to be a Roman Catholic or the Roman Catholic Church can persist even without a pope, making him unnecessary.
you clearly can't grasp the plain truth that the Church is in a crisis, are you even aware that the bible predicts this?
there's no irony and no contradiction..just your  laziness to do some basic research

 In the Gospel, Our Lord Jesus Christ informs us th
at in the last days the true Faith would hardly
be found on the earth.  He tells us that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of
desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound
 that, if it were possible, even the elect would
be deceived (Mt. 24:24).   
Matthew 24:15- “
When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which
was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place
: he that readeth let
him understand.”
Matthew 24:24-25- “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show
great signs and wonders,
insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect
.  Behold I
have told it to you, beforehand.”

 Thess. 2:3-5- “Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come
a revolt
[apostasy] first, and the man of sin be reve
aled, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and
is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped,
so that he sitteth in the
temple of God
, shewing himself as if he were God.  Remember you not, that when I was
yet with you, I told you these things?”
In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might
be seeing the beginning of the evils which will
fully come to pass in the last days.
Pope St. Pius X,
E Supremi
 (# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “...
there is good reason to fear lest this
great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils
which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the
‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks
 (2 Thess. 2:3).”
1
The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s
physical structures,
in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15). 
It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Well you've made yourself sound like more of a kook than ever, but you're still not doing the pspacy's claims any favors, especially as its magisterium has no knowledge of this happening that would be extremely critical for Catholic Christians to understand.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 16, 2017, 12:12:43 AM
not I but the Church of Christ...Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208...
Do you grok the irony and contradiction of your quoting popes, when you do not believe that there's any pope currently?  For, if a Roman Catholic needs to be united with a pope, either you ceased to be a Roman Catholic or the Roman Catholic Church can persist even without a pope, making him unnecessary.
you clearly can't grasp the plain truth that the Church is in a crisis, are you even aware that the bible predicts this?
there's no irony and no contradiction..just your  laziness to do some basic research

 In the Gospel, Our Lord Jesus Christ informs us th
at in the last days the true Faith would hardly
be found on the earth.  He tells us that “in the holy place” itself there will be “the abomination of
desolation” (Mt. 24:15), and a deception so profound
 that, if it were possible, even the elect would
be deceived (Mt. 24:24).   
Matthew 24:15- “
When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which
was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place
: he that readeth let
him understand.”
Matthew 24:24-25- “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show
great signs and wonders,
insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect
.  Behold I
have told it to you, beforehand.”

 Thess. 2:3-5- “Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come
a revolt
[apostasy] first, and the man of sin be reve
aled, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and
is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped,
so that he sitteth in the
temple of God
, shewing himself as if he were God.  Remember you not, that when I was
yet with you, I told you these things?”
In 1903, Pope St. Pius X thought that he might
be seeing the beginning of the evils which will
fully come to pass in the last days.
Pope St. Pius X,
E Supremi
 (# 5), Oct. 4, 1903: “...
there is good reason to fear lest this
great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils
which are reserved for the last days; and that there may already be in the world the
‘Son of Perdition’ of whom the Apostle speaks
 (2 Thess. 2:3).”
1
The New Testament tells us that this deception will happen in the very heart of the Church’s
physical structures,
in “the Temple of God” (2 Thess. 2:4) and “in the holy place” (Mt. 24:15). 
It will arise because people receive not the love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

Well you've made yourself sound like more of a kook than ever, but you're still not doing the pspacy's claims any favors, especially as its magisterium has no knowledge of this happening that would be extremely critical for Catholic Christians to understand.
you can't refute anything I post so you resort to ad hominem attacks..typical ..I used to do that when I was losing debates too..then I turned 9 and decided to act more mature..there always hope for you...I think
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on August 16, 2017, 12:17:54 AM
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same pablum, ad nauseam...
You never squared off your sect without a pope and the need of there being a pope as head of the Church.  Evidently you are incapable of realizing anything about yourself or your heretical beliefs.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 12:33:35 AM
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same pablum, ad nauseam...
You never squared off your sect without a pope and the need of there being a pope as head of the Church.  Evidently you are incapable of realizing anything about yourself or your heretical beliefs.

I rest my case.

the only case you have made is that you don't have a clue..leave the catholic apologetics to people like me who care about the truth..read the below and learn something..start taking your salvation seriously...evidently you are incapable of realizing the truth

St. Athanasius:"

Even if Catholics faithful to tradition are reduced to a handful, they

are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."


St. Francis De Sales (17th

century), Doctor of the Church,

The Catholic Controversy, pp.

305-306: "

Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls

ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."

There is not one teaching of the Catholic Church th

at can be quoted which is contrary to the fact

that there is presently a counterfeit sect which ha

s reduced the true Catholic Church to a remnant

in the days of the Great Apostasy, which is presided over by antipopes who have falsely posed as popes. Those who assert that the Vatican II sect

is the Catholic Church assert that the Catholic

Church officially endorses false religions and fals

e doctrines. This is impossible and would mean

that the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Catholic Church.

The Church has existed for years without a pope, and does so every time a pope dies.

The Church has experienced a papal interregnum (i

.e. period without a pope) over 200 different

times in Church history. The longest papal

interregnum (before the Vatican II apostasy) was

between Pope St. Marcellinus (296-304) and Pope St.

Marcellus (308-309). It lasted for more than

three and a half years.

36

Further, theologians teach that the Church can exist

for even decades

without a pope.


The great schism of the West suggests to me a reflection which I take the liberty of

expressing here.

If this schism had not occurred, the hypothesis of such a thing

happening would appear to many chimerical [absurd]. They would say it could not

be; God would not permit the Church to come into so unhappy a situation

. Heresies

might spring up and spread and last painfully long, through the fault and to the

perdition of their authors and abettors, to the great distress too of the faithful, increased

by actual persecution in many places where the heretics were dominant.

But that the

true Church should remain between thirty and forty years without a thoroughly

ascertained Head, and representative of Christ on earth, this would not be

.

Yet it has

been

;

and we have no guarantee that it will not be again

, though we may fervently

hope otherwise. What I would infer is, that

we must not be too ready to pronounce on

what God may permit. We know with absolute certainty that He will fulfill His

promises

... We may also trust that He will do a great deal more than what He has bound

Himself by His promises. We may look forw

ard with cheering probability to exemption

for the future from some of the trouble and misfortunes that have befallen in the past.

But we, or our successors in the future generations of Christians, shall perhaps see

stranger evils than have yet been experienced

, even before the immediate approach of

that great winding up of all things on earth

that will precede the day of judgment. I am

not setting up for a prophet, nor pretending

to see unhappy wonders, of which I have no

knowledge whatever.

All I mean to convey is that contingencies regarding the Church,

not excluded by the Divine promises, cannot be regarded as practically impossible,

just because they would be terrible and distressing in a very high degree

.”

38

This is an excellent point. Fr. O’Reilly explains that if the Great Western Schism had never

occurred, Catholics would say that such a situ

ation (three competing claimants to the Papacy

with no thoroughly ascertained head for decades)

is impossible – just like those today who say

the sedevacantist “thesis” is impossible, even though the facts prove that it is true.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: michaelus on August 17, 2017, 12:38:24 AM
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same pablum, ad nauseam...
You never squared off your sect without a pope and the need of there being a pope as head of the Church.  Evidently you are incapable of realizing anything about yourself or your heretical beliefs.

I rest my case.

the only case you have made is that you don't have a clue..leave the catholic apologetics to people like me who care about the truth..read the below and learn something..start taking your salvation seriously...evidently you are incapable of realizing the truth
You can't make an argument by blatantly dumping quotes copied from Most Holy Family Monastery.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 17, 2017, 12:47:46 AM
Never seen spam quite like it, as tho a bot written by a Dominican had a seizure.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 07:56:23 AM
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same pablum, ad nauseam...
You never squared off your sect without a pope and the need of there being a pope as head of the Church.  Evidently you are incapable of realizing anything about yourself or your heretical beliefs.

I rest my case.

the only case you have made is that you don't have a clue..leave the catholic apologetics to people like me who care about the truth..read the below and learn something..start taking your salvation seriously...evidently you are incapable of realizing the truth
You can't make an argument by blatantly dumping quotes copied from Most Holy Family Monastery.
says who?, you sound like the other genius who said I can't post from St Thomas..listen, either the info is true or it's not..if not just prove it false..when I quoted St Thomas the response was the quotes are forgeries..lol
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 17, 2017, 12:52:51 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 17, 2017, 12:58:08 PM
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same pablum, ad nauseam...
You never squared off your sect without a pope and the need of there being a pope as head of the Church.  Evidently you are incapable of realizing anything about yourself or your heretical beliefs.

I rest my case.

the only case you have made is that you don't have a clue..leave the catholic apologetics to people like me who care about the truth..read the below and learn something..start taking your salvation seriously...evidently you are incapable of realizing the truth
You can't make an argument by blatantly dumping quotes copied from Most Holy Family Monastery.
says who?, you sound like the other genius who said I can't post from St Thomas..listen, either the info is true or it's not..if not just prove it false..when I quoted St Thomas the response was the quotes are forgeries..lol

Thanks, I'm glad you were able to argue against me with logical debate rather than a usage of ad hominem attacks  ::)

Christ never said, "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. If not, call him an idiot to win the argument."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: LivenotoneviL on August 17, 2017, 01:19:41 PM
Blah, blah, blah, more of the same pablum, ad nauseam...
You never squared off your sect without a pope and the need of there being a pope as head of the Church.  Evidently you are incapable of realizing anything about yourself or your heretical beliefs.

I rest my case.

the only case you have made is that you don't have a clue..leave the catholic apologetics to people like me who care about the truth..read the below and learn something..start taking your salvation seriously...evidently you are incapable of realizing the truth
You can't make an argument by blatantly dumping quotes copied from Most Holy Family Monastery.
says who?, you sound like the other genius who said I can't post from St Thomas..listen, either the info is true or it's not..if not just prove it false..when I quoted St Thomas the response was the quotes are forgeries..lol

Thanks, I'm glad you were able to argue against me with logical debate rather than a usage of ad hominem attacks  ::)

Christ never said, "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. If not, call him an idiot to win the argument."

Also, sedevacantism is a foolish belief from a Roman Catholic standpoint, as it not only adheres to the fact that the gates of hell have prevailed against the Roman Catholic Church, and 1 billion Catholics are immediately condemned to hell for obeying the Pope, but considering that it is absolutely necessary to be in communion with "infallible Rome" according to RC tradition, how it is possible for infallible Rome to be wrong in its dogma, so that anyone in communion with Rome is a heretic.

It seems like an honest contradiction...
And it is very prideful...it reminds me of a certain parable (Luke 18:9-14)

Or, it could be that Rome was never seen as de facto infallible according to Tradition, and that the true Church is with the other four Patriarchs who excommunicated the one Patriarch.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 17, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
Sedevacantist, maybe it would be helpful if you could show us a quote from a current Catholic bishop with apostolic succession that indicates there is currently no pope.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 01:52:22 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on August 17, 2017, 01:54:06 PM
Indeed. Everyone has to be subject to Rome in order to be saved. Yet, Rome is in heresy. It's one of the many paradoxical a, yet not a logical sequences that Rome or Romanists adhere to.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on August 17, 2017, 02:02:37 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Papism is not the Church of Christ, it's a schismatic and heretical sect.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 17, 2017, 02:07:58 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Then why don't you convert and save your soul?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on August 17, 2017, 03:21:20 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Then why don't you convert and save your soul?
He believes that he already is a member of the one church.
I think that many people on this forum have some kind of (probably hidden) agenda. With Anthony, who started this thread, it is quite clear. As far as one can tell from his posts, he is really struggling and hoping to get input here. Similar with Sharbel who is disappointed with the Catholic church. However, I don't understand what Sedevacantist's purpose is here: He comes to an Orthodox page, trying to win over Orthodox for his sedis, online mission, so to say? Unlikely. Why don't you put your effort into trad Catholic audience? Something strange going on here.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 17, 2017, 03:35:52 PM
He believes what now?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 08:30:23 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Then why don't you convert and save your soul?
He believes that he already is a member of the one church.
I think that many people on this forum have some kind of (probably hidden) agenda. With Anthony, who started this thread, it is quite clear. As far as one can tell from his posts, he is really struggling and hoping to get input here. Similar with Sharbel who is disappointed with the Catholic church. However, I don't understand what Sedevacantist's purpose is here: He comes to an Orthodox page, trying to win over Orthodox for his sedis, online mission, so to say? Unlikely. Why don't you put your effort into trad Catholic audience? Something strange going on here.
something strange?? is it strange to try and convert non catholics who are headed to hell in order that they maybe saved...why would I have to convert Traditional Catholics since hey have the true faith?? how do you know I don't debate in trad Catholic forums anyway?  what's strange  is  your statement .
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 17, 2017, 08:31:10 PM
Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I my personal life the most of RCs I met they are cold heart hypocrites. Many RCs said they belong to the only true church, and they are real Christians. However, they don't have love and compassion in their heart. They like to go around to judge people and insult others.

I haven't met many sedevacantists in my personal life. However their behaviours on internet are absolutely ruthless, rude, and full of hatred. Same as most of "traditional Catholics". 

I still have some friends who are RCs. However, I am really angry at Roman Church.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 08:31:50 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Papism is not the Church of Christ, it's a schismatic and heretical sect.
the papacy is biblical, proven here numerous times
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 08:39:41 PM
Sedevacantist, maybe it would be helpful if you could show us a quote from a current Catholic bishop with apostolic succession that indicates there is currently no pope.
Servulus

http://www.mostholytrinityseminary.org/bpsanbornbio.html

 Donald J. Sanborn was born in New York, where he attended Catholic elementary school and high school. In 1967 he entered the seminary college for the Diocese of Brooklyn, where he majored in classical languages and graduated cum laude in 1971.


   That same year, unhappy with the modernist seminary training he was receiving, he entered Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, thus becoming one of the first seminarians in the newly founded Society of St. Pius X (SSPX).

   

   Donald Sanborn was ordained a priest by Archbishop Lefebvre on June 29, 1975. He returned to East Meadow, on New York’s Long Island, to assist the Rev. Clarence Kelly. He taught at St. Pius V School on Long Island, and traveled to offer Mass in Pennsylvania, Delaware and Virginia.


   In January 1977 Archbishop Lefebvre appointed him Rector of St. Joseph’s House of Studies in Armada, Michigan, SSPX’s first American seminary. In fall of that year, he was joined by the Rev. Anthony Cekada. The following year he acquired a church facility in Redford, Michigan, to serve Catholics in the Detroit metropolitan area.


   From Armada, Fr. Sanborn conducted an extensive search throughout the United States for a new and larger seminary facility to accommodate the growing number of seminarians. In 1979, with the consent of Archbishop Lefevbre, he acquired a former Jesuit retreat house in Ridgefield, Connecticut, which was then renamed St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary and became the new home of SSPX’s U.S. seminary.


   He immediately made plans for the expansion of the Ridgefield facility, and launched a major fundraising program, which by 1982 allowed construction to begin on a new wing.


   In April 1983 he was among the nine American priests expelled from SSPX because they objected to liturgical changes imposed by Archbishop Lefebvre, as well as to other disturbing leftward trends in the Archbishop’s organization. Thereafter in 1984 Fr. Sanborn established Blessed Sacrament Chapel in Martinez, California.


   After returning to Michigan in 1986, he acquired a large school complex in Warren, a northeast suburb of Detroit. This became the home for Mary Help of Christians Academy, and for Queen of Martyrs Chapel, which in 1999 would later acquire a large church in Fraser, another northeast suburb.


   In 1991 he founded Sacerdotium, a scholarly quarterly for traditional Catholic priests, and Catholic Restoration, a periodical for the Catholic laity. Both immediately acquired a well-deserved reputation for excellence in content and presentation.


   During this period, Fr. Sanborn turned his attention to writing, and produced a series of articles analyzing the errors of Vatican II and John Paul II.


   In 1995, with the encouragement of fellow traditional Catholic priests, he founded Most Holy Trinity Seminary. Fr. Sanborn is eminently qualified to form young men for the priesthood. He has a profound grasp of Thomistic philosophy and of Catholic dogmatic and moral theology, and is an outstanding teacher who is able to communicate his knowledge effectively. In addition to expertise in Latin and a working knowledge of Greek, German and Spanish, he is fluent in French and Italian, and has a broad understanding of Catholic history and culture. He is devoted to the solemnities of the sacred liturgy, and his years as a priest and seminary rector provided him with many insights into priestly spirituality.


   In 1999 Fr. Sanborn began teaching the seminarians a course on the history of modern errors. It was the product of several years of reading and research, and will one day be published as a book.


   In June, 2002, he was consecrated a bishop by the Most Rev. Robert F. McKenna, OP.


   Because Fr. Selway needed to be in a warm climate for health reasons, Bishop Sanborn decided in 2003 to move the seminary from Michigan to Florida. He purchased a small church and school facility in the city of Brooksville in Hernando County, about fifty miles north of Tampa. Shortly thereafter he purchased approximately forty-eight acres, also in Hernando County, on which to build the seminary.


   Work started on the seminary in April of 2005. The seminary obtained occupancy of the building in April of 2008. Bishop Sanborn moved the seminary from Warren, Michigan to Florida in 2005, occupying temporarily the church/school facility, while awaiting the completion of the new seminary building.


   The long-term goal is that Most Holy Trinity Seminary, a novitiate of the Sisters of Saint Thomas Aquinas, and Queen of All Saints Academy occupy the original forty-eight acres which he purchased in 2003. Such a combination of facilities in one location would make for a vibrant parish life, a fine school, and rich and beautiful liturgical ceremonies.


   Bishop Sanborn is currently Rector of the seminary in Brooksville, Florida. He also travels frequently to Mass centers in the United States, and makes occasional visits to Europe, where he meets with both clergy and lay people who share or who are interested in his uncompromising position with regard to the Novus Ordo religion.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on August 17, 2017, 08:43:53 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Papism is not the Church of Christ, it's a schismatic and heretical sect.
the papacy is biblical, proven here numerous times

The Novus Ordo is biblical, proven lots of places numerous times. 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 17, 2017, 08:50:43 PM
When I was studying in University of Waterloo in Canada. RC students brainwashed me to join their student club. RCs used the threat of hell to force me not to become Orthodox. So I have to go to Byzantine Catholic Church. I was being brainwashed to participate Eucharist adoration, rosary, Divine Mercy....    However, I didn't receive any spiritual healing and comfort. Only thing I got was verbal,spiritual and mental abuse. I got insulted by RC layman, priests and nun. It costed my lots of grief and pain. Because of my involvement with RC students club and Byzantine Catholic Church I almost failed university. I spent 6 years to do a bachelor degree.
RCs stole my youth year. Right now I am 30 years old now, I am still doing the other degree. I have no job, car, house, money, wife and children.
Most of RCs I used to be friends with, they complete forsake me. They don't care about my current situation. They completely ignore my pain.
RC owns me so much. What a evil organization on earth. I feel so shameful that I scarified my time for this evil organization for nothing.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 17, 2017, 08:51:54 PM
Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I my personal life the most of RCs I met they are cold heart hypocrites. Many RCs said they belong to the only true church, and they are real Christians. However, they don't have love and compassion in their heart. They like to go around to judge people and insult others.

I haven't met many sedevacantists in my personal life. However their behaviours on internet are absolutely ruthless, rude, and full of hatred. Same as most of "traditional Catholics". 

I still have some friends who are RCs. However, I am really angry at Roman Church.

Do you think it's fair to evaluate the whole church based on "trad" and sedevacantist elements?
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 17, 2017, 08:56:26 PM
Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I my personal life the most of RCs I met they are cold heart hypocrites. Many RCs said they belong to the only true church, and they are real Christians. However, they don't have love and compassion in their heart. They like to go around to judge people and insult others.

I haven't met many sedevacantists in my personal life. However their behaviours on internet are absolutely ruthless, rude, and full of hatred. Same as most of "traditional Catholics". 

I still have some friends who are RCs. However, I am really angry at Roman Church.

Do you think it's fair to evaluate the whole church based on "trad" and sedevacantist elements?

Not just "trad" and sedevacantists...

Most of Roman Catholics I met who go to Novos Ordo every Sunday are also cold heart hypocrites. I met many RCs who pray rosary everyday are full of hatred in their heart. They just like people in CAF forum that lack of compassion and enjoy insult people.
 
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Mor Ephrem on August 17, 2017, 09:01:52 PM
Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I my personal life the most of RCs I met they are cold heart hypocrites. Many RCs said they belong to the only true church, and they are real Christians. However, they don't have love and compassion in their heart. They like to go around to judge people and insult others.

I haven't met many sedevacantists in my personal life. However their behaviours on internet are absolutely ruthless, rude, and full of hatred. Same as most of "traditional Catholics". 

I still have some friends who are RCs. However, I am really angry at Roman Church.

Do you think it's fair to evaluate the whole church based on "trad" and sedevacantist elements?

Not just "trad" and sedevacantists...

Most of Roman Catholics I met who go to Novos Ordo every Sunday are also cold heart hypocrites. I met many RCs who pray rosary everyday are full of hatred in their heart. They just like people in CAF forum that lack of compassion and enjoy insult people.

Orthodox will disappoint you.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Porter ODoran on August 17, 2017, 09:39:09 PM
Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I my personal life the most of RCs I met they are cold heart hypocrites. Many RCs said they belong to the only true church, and they are real Christians. However, they don't have love and compassion in their heart. They like to go around to judge people and insult others.

I haven't met many sedevacantists in my personal life. However their behaviours on internet are absolutely ruthless, rude, and full of hatred. Same as most of "traditional Catholics". 

I still have some friends who are RCs. However, I am really angry at Roman Church.

Do you think it's fair to evaluate the whole church based on "trad" and sedevacantist elements?

Not just "trad" and sedevacantists...

Most of Roman Catholics I met who go to Novos Ordo every Sunday are also cold heart hypocrites. I met many RCs who pray rosary everyday are full of hatred in their heart. They just like people in CAF forum that lack of compassion and enjoy insult people.

These are trying times and many folks are angry. Yet it isn't excusable. But I wonder if you're trapped in a certain social circle or something. This happened to me one time -- in fact, I spent several years in misery, blaming a certain locality, only eventually to discover that just my coworkers and their friends were the rotten ones. To get to the point -- I know and have known many lovely, compassionate, kind, and fair Roman Catholics, so I know they can't all be painted with a black brush. Indeed, it would be hypocrisy on our part to say they are the "bad ones."
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: sedevacantist on August 17, 2017, 11:24:02 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Papism is not the Church of Christ, it's a schismatic and heretical sect.
the papacy is biblical, proven here numerous times

The Novus Ordo is biblical, proven lots of places numerous times.
show me your thread where you proved this...I won't hold my breath
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on August 17, 2017, 11:37:03 PM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult group. I spent all my time for RC and Byzantine Catholic back in my university years. Because of that I almost failed university. I spend 6 years in university to complete my bachelor of science degree. However, I did not receive any spiritual healing and blessing. Right now I consider that it was wasting my time.
 RC took away my youth year and wasting so much of my time. Because of that I am over 30 years old now I still don't have job, car, house, wife and children. I am still doing the other degree.
you should fear for your salvation like the bible says, there is no salvation outside the true Catholic Church

Thou sayest.

 :laugh:
no the Church of Christ sayeth, convert and save your soul

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:

“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved

Papism is not the Church of Christ, it's a schismatic and heretical sect.
the papacy is biblical, proven here numerous times

The Novus Ordo is biblical, proven lots of places numerous times.
show me your thread where you proved this...I won't hold my breath

The Papacy is not Biblical. There is no place in the Bible that gives the Bishop of Rome infallible powers.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: servulus on August 18, 2017, 12:57:42 AM
Sedevacantist, maybe it would be helpful if you could show us a quote from a current Catholic bishop with apostolic succession that indicates there is currently no pope.
Servulus

http://www.mostholytrinityseminary.org/bpsanbornbio.html

 Donald J. Sanborn was born in New York, where he attended Catholic elementary school and high school. In 1967 he entered the seminary college for the Diocese of Brooklyn, where he majored in classical languages and graduated cum laude in 1971.


   That same year, unhappy with the modernist seminary training he was receiving, he entered Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre’s seminary in Ecône, Switzerland, thus becoming one of the first seminarians in the newly founded Society of St. Pius X (SSPX).

   

   Donald Sanborn was ordained a priest by Archbishop Lefebvre on June 29, 1975. He returned to East Meadow, on New York’s Long Island, to assist the Rev. Clarence Kelly. He taught at St. Pius V School on Long Island, and traveled to offer Mass in Pennsylvania, Delaware and Virginia.


   In January 1977 Archbishop Lefebvre appointed him Rector of St. Joseph’s House of Studies in Armada, Michigan, SSPX’s first American seminary. In fall of that year, he was joined by the Rev. Anthony Cekada. The following year he acquired a church facility in Redford, Michigan, to serve Catholics in the Detroit metropolitan area.


   From Armada, Fr. Sanborn conducted an extensive search throughout the United States for a new and larger seminary facility to accommodate the growing number of seminarians. In 1979, with the consent of Archbishop Lefevbre, he acquired a former Jesuit retreat house in Ridgefield, Connecticut, which was then renamed St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary and became the new home of SSPX’s U.S. seminary.


   He immediately made plans for the expansion of the Ridgefield facility, and launched a major fundraising program, which by 1982 allowed construction to begin on a new wing.


   In April 1983 he was among the nine American priests expelled from SSPX because they objected to liturgical changes imposed by Archbishop Lefebvre, as well as to other disturbing leftward trends in the Archbishop’s organization. Thereafter in 1984 Fr. Sanborn established Blessed Sacrament Chapel in Martinez, California.


   After returning to Michigan in 1986, he acquired a large school complex in Warren, a northeast suburb of Detroit. This became the home for Mary Help of Christians Academy, and for Queen of Martyrs Chapel, which in 1999 would later acquire a large church in Fraser, another northeast suburb.


   In 1991 he founded Sacerdotium, a scholarly quarterly for traditional Catholic priests, and Catholic Restoration, a periodical for the Catholic laity. Both immediately acquired a well-deserved reputation for excellence in content and presentation.


   During this period, Fr. Sanborn turned his attention to writing, and produced a series of articles analyzing the errors of Vatican II and John Paul II.


   In 1995, with the encouragement of fellow traditional Catholic priests, he founded Most Holy Trinity Seminary. Fr. Sanborn is eminently qualified to form young men for the priesthood. He has a profound grasp of Thomistic philosophy and of Catholic dogmatic and moral theology, and is an outstanding teacher who is able to communicate his knowledge effectively. In addition to expertise in Latin and a working knowledge of Greek, German and Spanish, he is fluent in French and Italian, and has a broad understanding of Catholic history and culture. He is devoted to the solemnities of the sacred liturgy, and his years as a priest and seminary rector provided him with many insights into priestly spirituality.


   In 1999 Fr. Sanborn began teaching the seminarians a course on the history of modern errors. It was the product of several years of reading and research, and will one day be published as a book.


   In June, 2002, he was consecrated a bishop by the Most Rev. Robert F. McKenna, OP.


   Because Fr. Selway needed to be in a warm climate for health reasons, Bishop Sanborn decided in 2003 to move the seminary from Michigan to Florida. He purchased a small church and school facility in the city of Brooksville in Hernando County, about fifty miles north of Tampa. Shortly thereafter he purchased approximately forty-eight acres, also in Hernando County, on which to build the seminary.


   Work started on the seminary in April of 2005. The seminary obtained occupancy of the building in April of 2008. Bishop Sanborn moved the seminary from Warren, Michigan to Florida in 2005, occupying temporarily the church/school facility, while awaiting the completion of the new seminary building.


   The long-term goal is that Most Holy Trinity Seminary, a novitiate of the Sisters of Saint Thomas Aquinas, and Queen of All Saints Academy occupy the original forty-eight acres which he purchased in 2003. Such a combination of facilities in one location would make for a vibrant parish life, a fine school, and rich and beautiful liturgical ceremonies.


   Bishop Sanborn is currently Rector of the seminary in Brooksville, Florida. He also travels frequently to Mass centers in the United States, and makes occasional visits to Europe, where he meets with both clergy and lay people who share or who are interested in his uncompromising position with regard to the Novus Ordo religion.
Thanks for responding.
I'm not going to debate whether or not Thuc line bishops are validly ordained from a Catholic point of view. I'll just assume that they are for the sake of argument. I don't think Bishop Sanborn can be considered to have apostolic succession. My point is that not even your bishops have authority.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Sharbel on August 18, 2017, 01:11:50 AM
Similar with Sharbel who is disappointed with the Catholic church.
If I may say it, it's not so much disappointment as disbelief.  The mounting contradictions, not only between my Maronite theology and tradition and the Roman theology and tradition, but inside Rome's theology and tradition.  What Rome calls development of theology creates glaring conflicts in its understanding of Divine Revelation and Liturgy, which is probably why ditching the Liturgy of Trent was a nigh necessity, to be replaced with a liturgy that papered over such conflicts.  It's as if Rome leaps farther and away from the orthodox faith in order to save face as the infallible patriarchate.
Something strange going on here.
The only strange thing is someone who keeps screaming proof texts in an empty room with the echo of his own voice confirming his beliefs.

Paraphrasing George Bernard Shaw, "I don't care about what you quote, tell me what you think!"
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Anthony1986 on August 18, 2017, 02:25:48 AM
The only strange thing is someone who keeps screaming proof texts in an empty room with the echo of his own voice confirming his beliefs.

Paraphrasing George Bernard Shaw, "I don't care about what you quote, tell me what you think!"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I notice some RCs come to this forum just throw many quotes but they never express their thought with others.
They just come here to post the polemic. They don't want to have any discussion with anyone. Just like what happened in Catholic answers forum.
Title: Re: Where should I go now? Eastern Orthodoxy or SSPX Latin Catholic
Post by: Lepanto on August 18, 2017, 02:36:11 AM
I feel strong bitterness toward Roman Catholic Church now. I am very angry that RC nun and layman imposed the fear of eternal damnation to force me to obey the RC.

I received lot of verbal abuse when I was RC.

When I was studying in University in Canada, I was very involved in Byzantine Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Young adult gr