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Foreign Language Forums => Slavic Languages => Topic started by: eddybear on February 18, 2017, 06:42:02 PM

Title: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: eddybear on February 18, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
I'm trying to learn the Lord's prayer in Russian, as we sometimes sing it in church. Listening on Youtube, the word for "your" is often pronounced TVO-ye which is how our musical score has it (we only have a phonetic version). But in other videos, including a teaching one, it is pronounced tva-YO. The associated texts spell it with the last letter being "e" in the first instance, and "e with 2 dots" in the second. Which is correct?
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: rakovsky on February 18, 2017, 07:33:29 PM
Quote
Отче наш, Иже еси на небесех!
Да святится имя Твое,
да приидет Царствие Твое,
да будет воля Твоя,
яко на небеси и на земли.
Хлеб наш насущный даждь нам днесь;
и остави нам долги наша,
якоже и мы оставляем должником нашим;
и не введи нас во искушение,
но избави нас от лукаваго.

Read more: http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/versions/lords_prayer_russian.html#ixzz4Z5CrzHym

http://www.lords-prayer-words.com/versions/lords_prayer_russian.html
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: RaphaCam on February 18, 2017, 07:37:24 PM
AFAIK it's "tva-YO".
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: rakovsky on February 18, 2017, 07:56:07 PM
Orthodox Wiki Page.
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Lord%27s_Prayer#Old_Church_Slavonic

Interesting issue, because your question itself is not correct and correcting it shows the best answer. The correction is that Orthodox Churches do not sing "Russian", they sing an updated version of "Church Slavonic".

The Old Church Slavonic here is:
    Оч͠е нашь ижє ѥси на н͠бсєхъ . да с͠титьсѧ имѧ
    твоѥ да придєть ц͠рствиѥ твоѥ · да бѫдєть воля
    твоя · яка на н͠бси и на земли хлѣбъ нашь насѫщьиыи ·
    даждь намъ дьньсь · и остави намъ · длъгы
    нашѧ · яко и мы оставляємъ длъжникомъ нашимъ
    и нє въвєди насъ въ напасть · иъ избави ны отъ
    нєприязни

In Church Slavonic, the letter is ѥ
That is a conjunction of English y and e, or in modern Russian йэ

Old Church Slavonic uses ѥ , prounced йэ.
Updated Church Slavonic uses е, pronounced йэ
Modern Russian uses ё, writes it as ё or е, pronounces it as йо.

We go by the Updated Church slavonic, and you can check it in this choir song in Moscow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbeZqnNCUOk

The way they are singing it would be wrong in their modern Russian, so they are singing it not in modern Russian, but in Church Slavonic.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: eddybear on February 18, 2017, 08:04:19 PM
That is a great explanation, thank you. I hadn't appreciated the difference between Old Church Slavonic, Updated Church Slavonic, and Russian, but it makes sense now.

Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: rakovsky on February 18, 2017, 08:46:13 PM
That is a great explanation, thank you. I hadn't appreciated the difference between Old Church Slavonic, Updated Church Slavonic, and Russian, but it makes sense now.
Thanks Eddy.

The Lord's Prayer in the updated version uses many pre Russian words like Otche, Dazhd, Dnes, Izhe, Yesi.
Nebesyekh is an outdated version of Nebesah.

It's kind of like how in English in Church we say Thy, Thou, and other such outdated English.
There is supposedly a theological reason too why God is called thee and thy as an informal word.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: rakovsky on February 18, 2017, 08:48:12 PM
Art, hallowed, thy, and "trespasses"
Are either old words or are not used in the same contexts as 500 years ago, but we still understand them.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: Dominika on February 19, 2017, 08:24:53 AM
I want also to remind that there are various redactions (versions) of Church Slavonic, so e.g in the Bulgarian version it is said "Tvoe", not "Tvoye", in Serbian version it's said "vovedi", not "vvedi" etc.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: ilyazhito on February 26, 2017, 12:21:59 AM
I want also to remind that there are various redactions (versions) of Church Slavonic, so e.g in the Bulgarian version it is said "Tvoe", not "Tvoye", in Serbian version it's said "vovedi", not "vvedi" etc.
I know that Bulgarian kept the yers (ъ), and that ввѣди was probably въвѣди, but is the Serbian pronunciation related to the yers? I never heard that Serbian pronounced the yers.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: rakovsky on February 26, 2017, 12:28:32 AM
I want also to remind that there are various redactions (versions) of Church Slavonic, so e.g in the Bulgarian version it is said "Tvoe", not "Tvoye", in Serbian version it's said "vovedi", not "vvedi" etc.
I know that Bulgarian kept the yers (ъ), and that ввѣди was probably въвѣди, but is the Serbian pronunciation related to the yers?
Indirectly, yes sir.

Etymologyically: Во Веди ~~ Въ Веди

Воведи
Въведи
Введи

Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: KevinMcCabe on August 08, 2019, 04:24:32 PM
How non-Russian speaking people can memorise this?
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: hecma925 on August 08, 2019, 04:25:33 PM
How non-Russian speaking people can memorise this?

Practice.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: Dominika on August 08, 2019, 06:43:23 PM
How non-Russian speaking people can memorise this?

I'm not Russian and I do remember it ;) The answer is simple: I say it every day + I'm a double Slav, as it's Church Slavonic, not Russian.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: RaphaCam on August 12, 2019, 05:35:10 PM
How non-Russian speaking people can memorise this?
Believe me, it's much easier to memorise a text than to actually learn its words.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: Eamonomae on August 12, 2019, 10:37:16 PM
Also, one more thing that should be noted: "твоё," while spelled "твоё", can also be spelled like "твое" but still retain the pronunciation of "твоё." In Russian, the two letters are related to one another in the development of the language, but for the sake of making it easier, dots are added to signify certain pronunciation - but they need not to be there.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: RaphaCam on August 13, 2019, 07:19:39 PM
Also, one more thing that should be noted: "твоё," while spelled "твоё", can also be spelled like "твое" but still retain the pronunciation of "твоё." In Russian, the two letters are related to one another in the development of the language, but for the sake of making it easier, dots are added to signify certain pronunciation - but they need not to be there.
Yeah, but твое is counter-recomended by the Russian Language Institute. In Portuguese Wikipedia there was a very old strife between people who wished to write Gorbachev's name as either "Gorbachev" or "Gorbachov", so I devised a standard, showed them how the lack of the diacritic wasn't very standard and it's neither option now, but Gorbatchov (since I convinced them that "tch" would be less misleading and more in line with Portuguese translations of Russian literature).
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: WPM on November 01, 2019, 11:40:27 AM
Prayer starts with the 'Our Father'.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: rakovsky on November 09, 2019, 03:49:19 PM
Also, one more thing that should be noted: "твоё," while spelled "твоё", can also be spelled like "твое" but still retain the pronunciation of "твоё." In Russian, the two letters are related to one another in the development of the language, but for the sake of making it easier, dots are added to signify certain pronunciation - but they need not to be there.
Yeah, but твое is counter-recomended by the Russian Language Institute.
By counter-recommended, I think that you really mean "argued against". The RLI, I imagine you mean, is arguing AGAINST using твое to mean твоё. Correct?

I take the word "counter-recommend" in normal English to literally mean to argue in FAVOR of something so as to argue AGAINST something else.

So if the EP recommends that you treat the OCU as canonical, the MP "counter-recommends" that you do not.
Title: Re: Question about Lord's prayer in Russian
Post by: RaphaCam on November 10, 2019, 01:55:06 PM
Yes, it argues against, apparently this is a false friend with Portuguese contrarrecomendar, which means exactly what I meant. Thanks!