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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: Raylight on October 07, 2015, 05:31:24 PM

Title: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: Raylight on October 07, 2015, 05:31:24 PM
What would your reply be to someone claims that there is no objective Christianity? Because there are many Christian denominations, and because each denomination has its own "councils" and way of understanding the Bible...etc. The conclusion would be that any group that claims to be a Christian (Mormons, JWs, even some pagans) are Christians.!!
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: NicholasMyra on October 07, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
there is no objective Christianity?
I'd hope not.
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: Raylight on October 07, 2015, 05:36:36 PM
there is no objective Christianity?
I'd hope not.

So anyone who claims to be Christian, is a Christian? The claim is that there is no "true Christianity" therefore, any group that claim to be Christian, is a Christian.
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: TheTrisagion on October 07, 2015, 05:48:34 PM
There is Truth. Some belief systems are closer to it than others.

As for what people choose to be called, whatever they choose to be called is what they are called. Presumably if they self-identify as a Christian, they at least accept some aspect of Christ's teachings.
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: William T on October 07, 2015, 06:03:53 PM
What would your reply be to someone claims that there is no objective Christianity? Because there are many Christian denominations, and because each denomination has its own "councils" and way of understanding the Bible...etc. The conclusion would be that any group that claims to be a Christian (Mormons, JWs, even some pagans) are Christians.!!

I would ask them to clarify.  I'd be more concerned with the motive and audience of the statement than the statement itself. Is the person deliberately trying to make an argument against Christianity? Is the person making an argument within the Christian tradition?  Usually if I hear this I want to see if the persons goal is to

a) undermine Christianity by trying to appeal to some kind of "evolutionary narrative" (probably a better phrase for this)

b) a generic argument against Catholicism (and in America, this should by proxy mean Orthodoxy)

c) starting to become more common: Someone who wants to impose their personal, political, ethical, spiritual or whatever fetishes within the spiritual system they are in, even though there is no precedent.

In America specifically, those tend to be the more common thoughts when it comes to statements like that.   A and B are more "arguments against" and are a bit more classic in their polemics, C is more or less just addressing millennials and their fashions...And is very much dealing with a fully "secular" and ""American" mind.

Those objections are not exhaustive, but that's usually what I come across.
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: Raylight on October 07, 2015, 06:50:22 PM
What would your reply be to someone claims that there is no objective Christianity? Because there are many Christian denominations, and because each denomination has its own "councils" and way of understanding the Bible...etc. The conclusion would be that any group that claims to be a Christian (Mormons, JWs, even some pagans) are Christians.!!

I would ask them to clarify.  I'd be more concerned with the motive and audience of the statement than the statement itself. Is the person deliberately trying to make an argument against Christianity? Is the person making an argument within the Christian tradition?  Usually if I hear this I want to see if the persons goal is to

a) undermine Christianity by trying to appeal to some kind of "evolutionary narrative" (probably a better phrase for this)

b) a generic argument against Catholicism (and in America, this should by proxy mean Orthodoxy)

c) starting to become more common: Someone who wants to impose their personal, political, ethical, spiritual or whatever fetishes within the spiritual system they are in, even though there is no precedent.

In America specifically, those tend to be the more common thoughts when it comes to statements like that.   A and B are more "arguments against" and are a bit more classic in their polemics, C is more or less just addressing millennials and their fashions...And is very much dealing with a fully "secular" and ""American" mind.

Those objections are not exhaustive, but that's usually what I come across.

It is against Christianity. The point was that fundamental Christians are not true to the true Christianity. Their understanding of the Bible and the Church's history...etc is partly false.  But he believes that they are Christians and they represent Christianity!! So lets say that a militant fundamental group like IS, claim to be Christian and commit awful crimes in the name of Christianity; based on that logic, they are "Christians" and they represent Christianity. It is like a trap to try and blame Christianity for the actions of any group that claim to follow Christ.



Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: Raylight on October 07, 2015, 06:51:30 PM
There is Truth. Some belief systems are closer to it than others.

As for what people choose to be called, whatever they choose to be called is what they are called. Presumably if they self-identify as a Christian, they at least accept some aspect of Christ's teachings.

Are 'gnostics' Christians? I know we're risking to a slippery slope of judging denominations. But honestly, can we consider Mormonism a Christian group? JWs a Christian group?
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: TheTrisagion on October 07, 2015, 07:18:08 PM
There is Truth. Some belief systems are closer to it than others.

As for what people choose to be called, whatever they choose to be called is what they are called. Presumably if they self-identify as a Christian, they at least accept some aspect of Christ's teachings.

Are 'gnostics' Christians? I know we're risking to a slippery slope of judging denominations. But honestly, can we consider Mormonism a Christian group? JWs a Christian group?
Much depends on what we mean by "Christian". In the denomination that I grew up in, only people who were "saved" by "asking Jesus into their hearts" were "Christians". From a historical standpoint, any belief system that arose out of a belief in Jesus and His teachings would be considered "Christian" regardless of how distorted the message may be. In that context, everything from Christian Identity members to Christian Scientist could be considered Christian. Even if we were to accept the Nicene Creed as the line at which we draw Christianity, there are differences of opinion on what is meant by things like "baptism for the remission of sins" and "one catholic and apostolic Church", so while that might be a helpful dividing line, it isn't perfect. If someone wishes to self-identify as a Christian, I don't believe it is my place to dispute that, but at the same time, I may very well have the belief that they are worshiping a different Christ. St. Paul speaks of this in 2 Corinthians 11.
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: LenInSebastopol on October 07, 2015, 09:06:14 PM
Nominalism is no fun at this level.
I've met those that with their lips say one thing, do another.
When questions like yours come up, my real response is like Twain's & Nietzsche's, "The last Real One died on The Cross".
Then go and try to do something better
(mutter, mutter, "way above my pay grade" mutter, mutter, "to much time on their hands" mutter......)
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: William T on October 08, 2015, 07:29:37 PM
There is Truth. Some belief systems are closer to it than others.

As for what people choose to be called, whatever they choose to be called is what they are called. Presumably if they self-identify as a Christian, they at least accept some aspect of Christ's teachings.

Are 'gnostics' Christians? I know we're risking to a slippery slope of judging denominations. But honestly, can we consider Mormonism a Christian group? JWs a Christian group?

None of those groups are Christian.  This is a definitional issue.
Title: Re: "There is no objective Christianity".
Post by: LenInSebastopol on October 10, 2015, 09:56:37 AM
There is Truth. Some belief systems are closer to it than others.

As for what people choose to be called, whatever they choose to be called is what they are called. Presumably if they self-identify as a Christian, they at least accept some aspect of Christ's teachings.

Are 'gnostics' Christians? I know we're risking to a slippery slope of judging denominations. But honestly, can we consider Mormonism a Christian group? JWs a Christian group?

None of those groups are Christian.  This is a definitional issue.

Yeah, and it's God Who wrote the dictionary.
We all try to read it with foggy organs.

Sorry, just tired of judging or saying "I'm right" and "you are wrong".
Got to get my first cuppa prior to this!  :o