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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Protestant Discussion => Topic started by: andrewlya on January 20, 2015, 06:04:32 PM

Title: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 20, 2015, 06:04:32 PM
Hi all,

Yesterday while I was driving I was listening to a Christian sermon, must have been by a Protestant from the USA, who was saying that " people don't go to hell for sinning, they go there for rejecting Christ!...Let me repeat, people don't go to hell for sinning, I am not saying people should go and sin, no, but people only go there if they reject the belief that Christ had made a payment for your sins!".

I thought that was a bit extereme. So, Protestants understanding of Salvation is that no matter what sin you committ as long as you have faith in Christ, you are automatically saved. In other words Protestants would say that "you should not sin", whereas Orthodox/Catholics would say "you must not sin". I don't think we should take sins lightly, not the way Protestants do..

Could you correct my understanding on Salvation:

1.People can go to hell for sinning unless repent. (Are there any sins that unforgivebale for God? I.e. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for example)

2. Faith alone is not enough to guarantee our salvation, we must do more than just believe.

3. We are not guaranteed Salvation having only belief in Christ. Salvation is a continual process whereby we have faith in God, the Christ, by being obedient as best we can to God's Commandments as well as trying to do good deeds but even then our Salvation is not guaranteed but will be decided/judged on the Last Day.

Are these corect?

On the other hand,if people are not "automativally" saved by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, if Jesus's sacrifice on the cross doesn't guarantee us Salvation, then to what extent does Jesus's sacrafice save us?

If we are not 100% saved, then why did Jesus Sacarifice His life on the Cross?

The Protestant's claim is that our Salvation is automatic, a guranteed ticket to Heaven no matter what sins we committ, all is forgiven, since Jesus has paid an ultimate ransom for us. How would Orthodox respond to this claim?


Thank you for your thoughts.

God bless.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Bob2 on January 20, 2015, 07:44:14 PM

The Protestant's claim is that our Salvation is automatic, a guranteed ticket to Heaven no matter what sins we committ, all is forgiven, since Jesus has paid an ultimate ransom for us. How would Orthodox respond to this claim?



Though I have points of contention with the Protestant position, this to me doesn't seem like a fair characterization of their position.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Greg on January 20, 2015, 09:11:09 PM
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Minnesotan on January 20, 2015, 10:30:55 PM
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Bob2 on January 21, 2015, 12:04:22 AM
one of the
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).

One of the differences between both of those groups is the use of the "saved" language, which points to a moment in time. In contrast Orthodox Christian usual refer to being saved, reflecting that it is a continual process.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Minnesotan on January 21, 2015, 12:38:58 AM
one of the
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).

One of the differences between both of those groups is the use of the "saved" language, which points to a moment in time. In contrast Orthodox Christian usual refer to being saved, reflecting that it is a continual process.

Yep. Many Protestants just think of salvation (and conversion) as a momentary event during your life, which I agree is a very deficient understanding of salvation. The Orthodox view is more nuanced and seems to better reflect reality.

The one exception to the Protestant trend is some Calvinists (maybe it'd be better to call them hyper-Calvinists) for whom salvation or damnation is something that happens at the beginning of time (I. e., long before you were actually born). That's what happens when you emphasize predestination to the exclusion of everything else. However, it also falls afoul of the 5th council, because it implies pre-existence of the soul, which is not an orthodox teaching. If you were individually saved or damned before the world was created, you'd have to have existed in some form back then, which results in something like a more dualist version of Origenism.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 21, 2015, 01:06:27 PM
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).
What's "OSAS", sorry?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: NCNewbie on January 21, 2015, 01:29:28 PM
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).
What's "OSAS", sorry?

"Once Saved, Always Saved"
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 21, 2015, 01:37:11 PM
one of the
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).

One of the differences between both of those groups is the use of the "saved" language, which points to a moment in time. In contrast Orthodox Christian usual refer to being saved, reflecting that it is a continual process.

Yep. Many Protestants just think of salvation (and conversion) as a momentary event during your life, which I agree is a very deficient understanding of salvation. The Orthodox view is more nuanced and seems to better reflect reality.

The one exception to the Protestant trend is some Calvinists (maybe it'd be better to call them hyper-Calvinists) for whom salvation or damnation is something that happens at the beginning of time (I. e., long before you were actually born). That's what happens when you emphasize predestination to the exclusion of everything else. However, it also falls afoul of the 5th council, because it implies pre-existence of the soul, which is not an orthodox teaching. If you were individually saved or damned before the world was created, you'd have to have existed in some form back then, which results in something like a more dualist version of Origenism.
I can't believe in pre-destination doctrine of Calvinists. If our lives are pre-written then why did God give us Commandments to follow?
Why test Abraham (and all of us for that matter)?
Also, what is the point of the Judgement Day if our destinies are pre-determined and decided upon already?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 21, 2015, 01:39:21 PM
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).
What's "OSAS", sorry?

"Once Saved, Always Saved"

Oh come on, how about killers and mass muderders, if they believe are they saved ,too?
I mean how far do they go with this doctrine? Would it not give carte blanche, a complete freedom to act as one wishes??

Sounds to EASY TO BE TRUE...
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 21, 2015, 01:41:43 PM
On the other hand,if people are not "Once Saved, Always Saved" by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross,what was the point of the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for us?

What's the view of Orthodoxy on this one?

Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 21, 2015, 06:24:44 PM
" people don't go to hell for sinning, they go there for rejecting Christ

Taken out of any context and given as a bald quotation, it is certainly an odd way of expressing things, and risks being very misleading. I think we should assume that the preacher knows the texts which say things like "The wages of sin is death" and "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Nonetheless, there is some truth hidden in his unusual statement. We have all sinned, and all deserve spiritual death, separation from the life of God, both now and eternally. However, in his mercy and love God has provided a remedy: we do not need to remain in that death, and make it eternally permanent by dying in unforgiven sin, for, by grace, we can repent of our sin and believe in Christ - believe in the sense of trust, turn to, and follow. But while we reject Christ, we remain in our sin, and if we die impenitent and unbelieving, still rejecting him, then assuredly we are damned eternally. There will never be a post mortem chance of repentance. Thus, it could be said (as your preacher did) that people go to hell because they rejected Christ in life, not because of the sin they committed, for they could have emerged, been rescued, from that sin by turning to Christ.

It may be that this is what the preacher was trying to explain, and that the brief quotation you cite, if put back in its context, encapsulates an aspect of Christian truth. It should be remembered that John 3:18 says that "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God": such verses focus, not on sin as the cause of condemnation, but on failure to believe in Christ.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Greg on January 22, 2015, 09:03:33 AM
Some Protestants do hold to that position though. Not all, but some do. And even if the Protestant in question doesn't hold that position, that doesn't mean that they take their "works" position to it's logical end.

Yeah, General ("Arminian") Baptists generally do, since many of them believe in both free will and eternal security. If you believe in free will, that means it's possible to fall away after "getting saved", but if you believe in OSAS, that means you must still be saved anyway even if you do.

However, Calvinists (who believe in OSAS but not free will) don't believe this, since they'd argue that if you "fall away" you were never really saved to begin with. And Wesleyans, Lutherans and others who don't believe in OSAS, believe that you can lose your salvation (and if you fall away after converting, you will).
What's "OSAS", sorry?

"Once Saved, Always Saved"

Oh come on, how about killers and mass muderders, if they believe are they saved ,too?
I mean how far do they go with this doctrine? Would it not give carte blanche, a complete freedom to act as one wishes??

Sounds to EASY TO BE TRUE...

Depends on who your asking. The answer I saw most often for these cases was something like "the person wasn't really saved to begin with."

And since you brought up predestination, I find the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" is something that definitely flirts with predestination, despite many Baptists devotion to free will. It certainly causes cases where someone will fall away and then one of their loved ones will try and "wrestle" with whether or not "they were truly saved." If they weren't, it preserves the OSAS doctrine (via committing the No True Scotsman fallacy), and if they were, then they're fated to come back to the faith eventually.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 25, 2015, 01:27:31 PM
" people don't go to hell for sinning, they go there for rejecting Christ

Taken out of any context and given as a bald quotation, it is certainly an odd way of expressing things, and risks being very misleading. I think we should assume that the preacher knows the texts which say things like "The wages of sin is death" and "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Nonetheless, there is some truth hidden in his unusual statement. We have all sinned, and all deserve spiritual death, separation from the life of God, both now and eternally. However, in his mercy and love God has provided a remedy: we do not need to remain in that death, and make it eternally permanent by dying in unforgiven sin, for, by grace, we can repent of our sin and believe in Christ - believe in the sense of trust, turn to, and follow. But while we reject Christ, we remain in our sin, and if we die impenitent and unbelieving, still rejecting him, then assuredly we are damned eternally. There will never be a post mortem chance of repentance. Thus, it could be said (as your preacher did) that people go to hell because they rejected Christ in life, not because of the sin they committed, for they could have emerged, been rescued, from that sin by turning to Christ.

It may be that this is what the preacher was trying to explain, and that the brief quotation you cite, if put back in its context, encapsulates an aspect of Christian truth. It should be remembered that John 3:18 says that "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God": such verses focus, not on sin as the cause of condemnation, but on failure to believe in Christ.
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".I know we have to trust Christ to be saved, but faith alone is surely not sufficient.This sounds too good to be true if all we need is the belief to be completely saved.The life would seem to be too easy,would not it.
Ive heard from another Protestant say that even if he shoots another person, he will still be saved because of the belief. I mean where are the limits, so basically no matter what sin we committ as long as we have faith we will be saved without judged?How are we to make sense of this..
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 25, 2015, 01:30:35 PM
Can someone explain this to me..

On the other hand,if people are not "Once Saved, Always Saved" by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross,what was the point of the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for us?

What's the view of Orthodoxy on this one?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: NCNewbie on January 25, 2015, 02:14:44 PM
" people don't go to hell for sinning, they go there for rejecting Christ

Taken out of any context and given as a bald quotation, it is certainly an odd way of expressing things, and risks being very misleading. I think we should assume that the preacher knows the texts which say things like "The wages of sin is death" and "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Nonetheless, there is some truth hidden in his unusual statement. We have all sinned, and all deserve spiritual death, separation from the life of God, both now and eternally. However, in his mercy and love God has provided a remedy: we do not need to remain in that death, and make it eternally permanent by dying in unforgiven sin, for, by grace, we can repent of our sin and believe in Christ - believe in the sense of trust, turn to, and follow. But while we reject Christ, we remain in our sin, and if we die impenitent and unbelieving, still rejecting him, then assuredly we are damned eternally. There will never be a post mortem chance of repentance. Thus, it could be said (as your preacher did) that people go to hell because they rejected Christ in life, not because of the sin they committed, for they could have emerged, been rescued, from that sin by turning to Christ.

It may be that this is what the preacher was trying to explain, and that the brief quotation you cite, if put back in its context, encapsulates an aspect of Christian truth. It should be remembered that John 3:18 says that "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God": such verses focus, not on sin as the cause of condemnation, but on failure to believe in Christ.
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".I know we have to trust Christ to be saved, but faith alone is surely not sufficient.This sounds too good to be true if all we need is the belief to be completely saved.The life would seem to be too easy,would not it.
Ive heard from another Protestant say that even if he shoots another person, he will still be saved because of the belief. I mean where are the limits, so basically no matter what sin we committ as long as we have faith we will be saved without judged?How are we to make sense of this..

If someone is truly living their life in Christ, we are still fallible and are prone to sin.  It's our human nature.  The difference is as Christians, we are forgiven.  While I do believe salvation is eternal (my largest obstacle that I am fighting with), that does not mean that the concept of salvation or grace is a license to live in a less than Christ-like manner and that we are not punished or fall short of the blessings of God due to our actions.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: pasadi97 on January 25, 2015, 02:33:08 PM
Don't forget this for salvation beside believing JEsus being baptised and having Holy Communion:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Bob2 on January 25, 2015, 02:33:51 PM
Can someone explain this to me..

On the other hand,if people are not "Once Saved, Always Saved" by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross,what was the point of the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for us?

What's the view of Orthodoxy on this one?

Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is what saves us, it just that it isn't a moment in time thing, it is a process: Theosis. No matter where we are in life the process (of our being saved) is begun is not complete this side of the grave. It takes us time to accept it and learn to live it.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 25, 2015, 05:09:52 PM
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".

I think there may be a number of ways of getting into your puzzlement. First of all, I would say that I think the way in which OSAS is portrayed on this forum is an American mutation of an ancient doctrine, and the way we sometimes hear it from our American brethren strikes us, as British Evangelicals and Baptists, just as oddly as it strikes Orthodox. Yet, unless we are misunderstanding what we hear American preachers say, your portrayal does represent what some of them teach.

Secondly, let me say that I am writing here to try to explain the teaching, not to defend it. Whether it is true or not is not the concern; what I am trying is to make it understood, nothing more, addressing your "I really don't understand the concept."

The way the doctrine is taught here in Britain always includes the assertion that a true conversion, a true new birth, will lead to a changed life: the faith that works by love. If there is no evidence of a changed life, there is no ground for believing the professed conversion is other than spurious. I get the impression that an American mutation excludes the need for such evidence, and accepts a spoken "sinner's prayer" or other profession of repentance and faith as effecting the unbreakable bond between man and God, that is, as saving the person.

It has always been the teaching on the Arminian side of Evangelicalism that a person can lose his salvation, fall away from grace, be severed from Christ. Also, it is commonly held by all that there are probably those who truly belong to the Lord, were genuinely born again of the Spirit of God, who backslide and cease to show any evidence of Christian life. Such backsliders must be left to God's secret knowledge, as it is written, the Lord knows those who are his. And the people written about in Paul's Corinthian correspondence must not be forgotten: there are those whose entire works will be burnt up, but they will be saved, "but only as through fire"; there is the man delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh whose spirit should be saved. Such people may be known to God, but our task is to preach a faith which both saves and leads to a visibly changed life characterised by works of devotion and mercy.

Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on January 25, 2015, 05:34:39 PM
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".

I think there may be a number of ways of getting into your puzzlement. First of all, I would say that I think the way in which OSAS is portrayed on this forum is an American mutation of an ancient doctrine, and the way we sometimes hear it from our American brethren strikes us, as British Evangelicals and Baptists, just as oddly as it strikes Orthodox. Yet, unless we are misunderstanding what we hear American preachers say, your portrayal does represent what some of them teach.

Secondly, let me say that I am writing here to try to explain the teaching, not to defend it. Whether it is true or not is not the concern; what I am trying is to make it understood, nothing more, addressing your "I really don't understand the concept."

The way the doctrine is taught here in Britain always includes the assertion that a true conversion, a true new birth, will lead to a changed life: the faith that works by love. If there is no evidence of a changed life, there is no ground for believing the professed conversion is other than spurious. I get the impression that an American mutation excludes the need for such evidence, and accepts a spoken "sinner's prayer" or other profession of repentance and faith as effecting the unbreakable bond between man and God, that is, as saving the person.

It has always been the teaching on the Arminian side of Evangelicalism that a person can lose his salvation, fall away from grace, be severed from Christ. Also, it is commonly held by all that there are probably those who truly belong to the Lord, were genuinely born again of the Spirit of God, who backslide and cease to show any evidence of Christian life. Such backsliders must be left to God's secret knowledge, as it is written, the Lord knows those who are his. And the people written about in Paul's Corinthian correspondence must not be forgotten: there are those whose entire works will be burnt up, but they will be saved, "but only as through fire"; there is the man delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh whose spirit should be saved. Such people may be known to God, but our task is to preach a faith which both saves and leads to a visibly changed life characterised by works of devotion and mercy.

I've always wondered your perspective on Biblical inerrancy, is the Bible inerrant? That is, in terms of it's content there are no errors in is whatsoever?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 25, 2015, 05:57:53 PM
" people don't go to hell for sinning, they go there for rejecting Christ

Taken out of any context and given as a bald quotation, it is certainly an odd way of expressing things, and risks being very misleading. I think we should assume that the preacher knows the texts which say things like "The wages of sin is death" and "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Nonetheless, there is some truth hidden in his unusual statement. We have all sinned, and all deserve spiritual death, separation from the life of God, both now and eternally. However, in his mercy and love God has provided a remedy: we do not need to remain in that death, and make it eternally permanent by dying in unforgiven sin, for, by grace, we can repent of our sin and believe in Christ - believe in the sense of trust, turn to, and follow. But while we reject Christ, we remain in our sin, and if we die impenitent and unbelieving, still rejecting him, then assuredly we are damned eternally. There will never be a post mortem chance of repentance. Thus, it could be said (as your preacher did) that people go to hell because they rejected Christ in life, not because of the sin they committed, for they could have emerged, been rescued, from that sin by turning to Christ.

It may be that this is what the preacher was trying to explain, and that the brief quotation you cite, if put back in its context, encapsulates an aspect of Christian truth. It should be remembered that John 3:18 says that "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God": such verses focus, not on sin as the cause of condemnation, but on failure to believe in Christ.
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".I know we have to trust Christ to be saved, but faith alone is surely not sufficient.This sounds too good to be true if all we need is the belief to be completely saved.The life would seem to be too easy,would not it.
Ive heard from another Protestant say that even if he shoots another person, he will still be saved because of the belief. I mean where are the limits, so basically no matter what sin we committ as long as we have faith we will be saved without judged?How are we to make sense of this..

If someone is truly living their life in Christ, we are still fallible and are prone to sin.  It's our human nature.  The difference is as Christians, we are forgiven.  While I do believe salvation is eternal (my largest obstacle that I am fighting with), that does not mean that the concept of salvation or grace is a license to live in a less than Christ-like manner and that we are not punished or fall short of the blessings of God due to our actions.

So,what's the Protestant take on the Juedgement Day, do they believe they won't be judged for their sins and actions just because they have belief?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 25, 2015, 06:06:09 PM
Don't forget this for salvation beside believing JEsus being baptised and having Holy Communion:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Thank you very much! his is my point, without actions faith is a mere word...

Additionally,

James 2:24 reads, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”

 Luke 18-20:

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

You know the commandments: 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

I think people really do need to take all verses in the Bible into consideration in order to build a bigger picture of Salvation rather than pick and chose certain verses to assert their points..
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 25, 2015, 06:09:13 PM
Can someone explain this to me..

On the other hand,if people are not "Once Saved, Always Saved" by Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross,what was the point of the Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for us?

What's the view of Orthodoxy on this one?

Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is what saves us, it just that it isn't a moment in time thing, it is a process: Theosis. No matter where we are in life the process (of our being saved) is begun is not complete this side of the grave. It takes us time to accept it and learn to live it.
So, how do we complete theosis? Can we be sure at any time of our earthly life that we will definitely be saved? Or we won't know until the Judgement Day?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 25, 2015, 06:11:17 PM
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".

I think there may be a number of ways of getting into your puzzlement. First of all, I would say that I think the way in which OSAS is portrayed on this forum is an American mutation of an ancient doctrine, and the way we sometimes hear it from our American brethren strikes us, as British Evangelicals and Baptists, just as oddly as it strikes Orthodox. Yet, unless we are misunderstanding what we hear American preachers say, your portrayal does represent what some of them teach.

Secondly, let me say that I am writing here to try to explain the teaching, not to defend it. Whether it is true or not is not the concern; what I am trying is to make it understood, nothing more, addressing your "I really don't understand the concept."

The way the doctrine is taught here in Britain always includes the assertion that a true conversion, a true new birth, will lead to a changed life: the faith that works by love. If there is no evidence of a changed life, there is no ground for believing the professed conversion is other than spurious. I get the impression that an American mutation excludes the need for such evidence, and accepts a spoken "sinner's prayer" or other profession of repentance and faith as effecting the unbreakable bond between man and God, that is, as saving the person.

It has always been the teaching on the Arminian side of Evangelicalism that a person can lose his salvation, fall away from grace, be severed from Christ. Also, it is commonly held by all that there are probably those who truly belong to the Lord, were genuinely born again of the Spirit of God, who backslide and cease to show any evidence of Christian life. Such backsliders must be left to God's secret knowledge, as it is written, the Lord knows those who are his. And the people written about in Paul's Corinthian correspondence must not be forgotten: there are those whose entire works will be burnt up, but they will be saved, "but only as through fire"; there is the man delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh whose spirit should be saved. Such people may be known to God, but our task is to preach a faith which both saves and leads to a visibly changed life characterised by works of devotion and mercy.


Agree.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your answer, it makes more sense now.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 25, 2015, 07:35:35 PM
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".

I think there may be a number of ways of getting into your puzzlement. First of all, I would say that I think the way in which OSAS is portrayed on this forum is an American mutation of an ancient doctrine, and the way we sometimes hear it from our American brethren strikes us, as British Evangelicals and Baptists, just as oddly as it strikes Orthodox. Yet, unless we are misunderstanding what we hear American preachers say, your portrayal does represent what some of them teach.

Secondly, let me say that I am writing here to try to explain the teaching, not to defend it. Whether it is true or not is not the concern; what I am trying is to make it understood, nothing more, addressing your "I really don't understand the concept."

The way the doctrine is taught here in Britain always includes the assertion that a true conversion, a true new birth, will lead to a changed life: the faith that works by love. If there is no evidence of a changed life, there is no ground for believing the professed conversion is other than spurious. I get the impression that an American mutation excludes the need for such evidence, and accepts a spoken "sinner's prayer" or other profession of repentance and faith as effecting the unbreakable bond between man and God, that is, as saving the person.

It has always been the teaching on the Arminian side of Evangelicalism that a person can lose his salvation, fall away from grace, be severed from Christ. Also, it is commonly held by all that there are probably those who truly belong to the Lord, were genuinely born again of the Spirit of God, who backslide and cease to show any evidence of Christian life. Such backsliders must be left to God's secret knowledge, as it is written, the Lord knows those who are his. And the people written about in Paul's Corinthian correspondence must not be forgotten: there are those whose entire works will be burnt up, but they will be saved, "but only as through fire"; there is the man delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh whose spirit should be saved. Such people may be known to God, but our task is to preach a faith which both saves and leads to a visibly changed life characterised by works of devotion and mercy.

I've always wondered your perspective on Biblical inerrancy, is the Bible inerrant? That is, in terms of it's content there are no errors in is whatsoever?
That may be a good discussion for another thread. ;)
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 26, 2015, 04:50:23 AM
I've always wondered your perspective on Biblical inerrancy, is the Bible inerrant? That is, in terms of it's content there are no errors in is whatsoever?

Let me answer this briefly here, and if people want to discuss it further, maybe it should become a separate thread.

The doctrine is that the scriptures contain no error, no contradiction, no discrepancy: they are word (nay, letter) perfect from the first verse of Genesis to the final verse of Revelation; but that perfection characterised only the original manuscripts. Such discrepancies &c as there are in our present Bibles have arisen from textual corruption. That is what inerrantists believe, and believe very fervently.

It raises the question as to why God should take the trouble to inspire a word-perfect canon of scripture, but not take the trouble to preserve it intact over the ensuing years. There are also other questions - such as does the perfection adhere also to the Hebrew vowel points, which (I believe) were added a long time after the original consonants were written down.

I think the doctrine formally arose towards the end of the 19th century, when a number of other developments were taking place concurrently: scientific discoveries, and rather more so, scientific theorising were undermining people's trust in scripture; liberal theology, emanating especially from Germany, was eroding people's faith in the reliability of scripture, especially from about 1860 onwards among Nonconformists and perhaps a little earlier among Anglicans; the Roman Catholics were formalising their doctrine of papal infallibility, which (I think without checking it up) was formally accepted in 1872. Evangelicals felt the need to shore up their defences, and came up with the doctrine of inerrancy.

Now you ask about my own, personal perspective. I believe (writing anthropomorphically perhaps) that when God looks at the Bible, he sees nothing in it of which he thinks, "That is a mistake: I wish it were not there", nor does he notice anything missing of which he thinks, "I wish I had put that bit in as well." The Bible is inspired, and will not fail to achieve all the purposes for which God caused it to be written. In that sense it may be called "infallible" - a misleading word which I use here to mean that the scriptures will not mislead anyone, and will not fail in their purpose. They are what God wanted them to be.

If God had wanted to inspire an inerrant canon of scripture, I have no doubt that he could have done so: I think Mormons and Muslims believe he did. But as far as I am aware with my imperfect knowledge and understanding, the scriptures themselves never make that assertion; rather, it seems to me to be a philosophical system devised in the late 19th century as Evangelicals began to panic about the numerical and spiritual decline of their constituency.

I do not think there is any doctrine which is affected by whether or not the scriptures are inerrant, and I believe and preach all the Evangelical emphases with, I hope, sincere fervour. The actual 'mechanism' of inspiration does not affect that, nor do I see why it should. Indeed, many Evangelicals are not inerrantists, and remain untroubled by such discrepancies as contradictions in numbers of people or chariots, or between personal or place names and other details in parallel accounts.

All this is, I hasten to add, only my personal perceptive; others would disagree, and some make inerrancy a formal requirement or tenet of their denomination. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Dan-Romania on January 26, 2015, 06:59:41 AM
Common sense = Righteousness = Orthodoxy

I never understood how people(Protestants) can believe that Salvation is automatic, i never believed in that.. That sort of belief is exclusionist and does not bring good fruit.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 26, 2015, 11:32:38 AM
,what's the Protestant take on the Juedgement Day, do they believe they won't be judged for their sins and actions just because they have belief?

Those who are in Christ, reconciled to God the Father through faith in Christ, are justified, pronounced not guilty. There is no condemnation; they are not excluded from salvation or sent to eternal punishment. They are freely and fully given for Christ's sake, whose sacrifice at the Cross paid a full ransom for their redemption. Their sins were once for all removed "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 103).

Good works are required of the Christian in this life, but are motivated by gratitude to God for his lovingkindness, not to earn salvation, which is a gift. However, in his superabundant mercy and generosity, God actually promises to reward good works. Jesus expressed the rewards in terms of being granted the privilege of greater service in the age to come (You have been faithful in a little, you will be put in charge of much).

Thus, I believe God has forgiven my sins on the ground of my faith in Christ. His assessment of my works, and whether I am commended with "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" or whether my works are burned and I am saved only as by fire, I must leave till the Day of Judgement.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 26, 2015, 05:43:40 PM
I really don't understand the concept "Once Saved Always Saved".
Those who are in Christ, reconciled to God the Father through faith in Christ, are justified, pronounced not guilty. There is no condemnation; they are not excluded from salvation or sent to eternal punishment. They are freely and fully given for Christ's sake, whose sacrifice at the Cross paid a full ransom for their redemption. Their sins were once for all removed "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 103).

Good works are required of the Christian in this life, but are motivated by gratitude to God for his lovingkindness, not to earn salvation, which is a gift. However, in his superabundant mercy and generosity, God actually promises to reward good works. Jesus expressed the rewards in terms of being granted the privilege of greater service in the age to come (You have been faithful in a little, you will be put in charge of much).

Thus, I believe God has forgiven my sins on the ground of my faith in Christ. His assessment of my works, and whether I am commended with "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" or whether my works are burned and I am saved only as by fire, I must leave till the Day of Judgement.


Can I also ask this...do Protestants believe that now since they are saved by the grace of faith,obedience to God (i.e. commandments) and Jesus's teachings as not as important as the belief in God and Christ?

 Do Protestants believe that no matter what sins they commit they are saved anyway? Are there any sins , in Protestant's views, that can "unsave" a person?

I may be wrong, but if one believes that "he is already saved by only having a faith" he is more likely to be prone to sin since he is nothing to fear anymore as opposed to someone who has the faith AND also is a God obedient person, knowing that one must be as righteous as possible to be allowed into Heaven on the Judgement Day.

God loves roghteous people (it is clearly seen from the Bible), however, there are some people who say they believe but their actions very "unfaithful"...those are the hypocrites,they may have the belief (at least they say they do), but they don't act their belief out as God wants us to. What about those "Christians", are they also saved according to Protestants?

Thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 26, 2015, 05:47:00 PM
Common sense = Righteousness = Orthodoxy

I never understood how people(Protestants) can believe that Salvation is automatic, i never believed in that.. That sort of belief is exclusionist and does not bring good fruit.
Yes, I very much find it difficult to believe that we are automatically saved.Life would be too easy to live then, in my humble opinion.

Since my childhood I've believed that sinning is bad and wrong and that we will all be judged in the same way after all.I believe we really have to work hard i.e. be God's obedient people, to earn a place in Heaven.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 26, 2015, 05:49:18 PM
,what's the Protestant take on the Juedgement Day, do they believe they won't be judged for their sins and actions just because they have belief?

Those who are in Christ, reconciled to God the Father through faith in Christ, are justified, pronounced not guilty. There is no condemnation; they are not excluded from salvation or sent to eternal punishment. They are freely and fully given for Christ's sake, whose sacrifice at the Cross paid a full ransom for their redemption. Their sins were once for all removed "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 103).

Good works are required of the Christian in this life, but are motivated by gratitude to God for his lovingkindness, not to earn salvation, which is a gift. However, in his superabundant mercy and generosity, God actually promises to reward good works. Jesus expressed the rewards in terms of being granted the privilege of greater service in the age to come (You have been faithful in a little, you will be put in charge of much).

Thus, I believe God has forgiven my sins on the ground of my faith in Christ. His assessment of my works, and whether I am commended with "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" or whether my works are burned and I am saved only as by fire, I must leave till the Day of Judgement.
What do you mean by "I am saved only as by fire"?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Dan-Romania on January 27, 2015, 04:26:22 AM
Common sense = Righteousness = Orthodoxy

I never understood how people(Protestants) can believe that Salvation is automatic, i never believed in that.. That sort of belief is exclusionist and does not bring good fruit.
Yes, I very much find it difficult to believe that we are automatically saved.Life would be too easy to live then, in my humble opinion.

Since my childhood I've believed that sinning is bad and wrong and that we will all be judged in the same way after all.I believe we really have to work hard i.e. be God's obedient people, to earn a place in Heaven.

i've always believed in virtues and saw them... there is nothing more unclean then unvirtuous religious profession.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: JamesR on January 27, 2015, 04:38:11 AM
Why would an all-powerful, awesome God be so insecure and narcissistic as to care about the affirmation or rejection of Him by something so insignificant, futile, and weak in comparison like human beings? Western theology is absurd. Does God really get off on what we think of Him? Does it really bother Him that much? Did He really just create us to satisfy His narcissistic insecurity? I feel bad for whoever believes in this God.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 27, 2015, 06:13:12 AM
something so insignificant, futile, and weak in comparison like human beings? Western theology is absurd.

It is true that the psalmist asks, "What is man, that thou art mindful of him?" and is it right to be and feel humble. However, it must not be forgotten that we were made in the image of God, "a little lower than the angels" (Hebrews) or even, "little less than God" crowned "with glory and honour" (Psalm 8 ). We must also remember that what pleased God about Abraham was that "Abraham believed God" - the man who lied twice about his wife. Also, recall that the redeemed are called the Bride of Christ, and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. If that is how the omnipotent God has chosen to relate to us, we cannot oppose his decision.

Quote
Does it really bother Him that much?

So the answer must be Yes! Is not this better than writing us off and leaving us all to the eternal fires with no proffered opening for escape? We should be adoring his mercy, not questioning his way of relating to his creatures.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: MalpanaGiwargis on January 27, 2015, 08:29:47 AM
2. Faith alone is not enough to guarantee our salvation, we must do more than just believe.

I think it's worth pointing out a difference between Orthodox and Western ideas of what "faith" entails. It has always seemed to me that during the medieval period, the Latin tradition began  almost exclusively understanding "the Faith" as a list of dogmatic propositions and "having faith" as intellectual assent to these propositions; this reduced the meaning of the word in a way that required a separate emphasis on works. The Protestants attempted to recover the older sense of the word, but many (IMO) overreacted in their estimation of the necessity, or lack thereof, of works. In any event, they repeat the same mistake of the medieval Latins in setting up an artificial divide between faith and works. I think the sense of the word "orthodoxy," especially as lived in the Orthodox Church, encompasses every aspect of life, both intellectual assent and liturgical and moral praxis, and as such does not need to be subdivided and categorized. It avoids the issue, at least in the way it has played out between Catholics and Protestants.

A sharp distinction between faith and works is an example of a recurring problem with the Scholastic approach; oftentimes it's less a matter of the Scholastics being wrong so much as it is that they introduce needless distinctions, which, while they might be inoffensive conceptually, have real-world effects. If nothing else, the endless distinction and categorization of everything invents completely useless disputes that have at times gotten quite nasty.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 27, 2015, 01:06:21 PM
What do you mean by "I am saved only as by fire"?

It's a quotation from 1 Corinthians 3. Having stated that the foundation of our religion is Jesus Christ, Paul goes on to say that "if anyone builds on the foundation with ... wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.  ... If any man's work is burnt up he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Thus, Paul is writing about a person whose Christian life and service earns no reward, indeed is likened to hay and stubble, fit only to be burnt up. On the Day of Judgement, that will happen to such a believer's work, and no reward will be given, but he himself will have his place in God's kingdom and not be damned along with those who have rejected Christ.

Verse 14 teaches the opposite, that "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward." Jesus gives some idea of the nature of the rewards in Luke 14.

Thus the phrase has nothing to do with any doctrine of a period in Purgatory: it refers to the Day of Judgement ("the Day will disclose it").
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 27, 2015, 01:18:00 PM
Can I also ask this...do Protestants believe that now since they are saved by the grace of faith,obedience to God (i.e. commandments) and Jesus's teachings as not as important as the belief in God and Christ?

I think the phrase "not as important" misses the point. Good works, and growth in holiness, are sought in every believer, and their importance are part of any real Christian life. The motivation is gratitude and a desire to please the God one loves. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" asks Paul the Apostle, and replies, "God forbid" or "By no means!" Such an attitude is wholly out of place in any Christian.

Quote
Do Protestants believe that no matter what sins they commit they are saved anyway? Are there any sins , in Protestant's views, that can "unsave" a person?

It is debated, and different teachers and believers have different views. Calvinists believe it is impossible for a person to be lost once he is born again; he will endure to the end. The doctrine is the P of TULIP, where P stands for the Perseverance of the Saints. It is also called Eternal Security. Arminians, such as Wesley, believe that a truly born-again believer can be severed from Christ and suffer loss of salvation. Others (google Remonstrants) explicitly leave the question unanswered for further consideration. So it is a matter on which there is not universal agreement.

Quote
I may be wrong, but if one believes that "he is already saved by only having a faith" he is more likely to be prone to sin since he is nothing to fear anymore ... on the Judgement Day.  

Quite right. We humans are always prone to become lazy, in any area of life. It is the very temptation Paul urges against in Romans 6.

Quote
hypocrites,they may have the belief (at least they say they do),...  What about those "Christians", are they also saved according to Protestants?

No. Again, quoting Paul, there are people who have "the form of godliness" but "deny the power thereof". The Old Testament calls it the sacrifice of fools, when one makes a vow to God without keeping it. It is not a matter of what one says, but what one is. As it is written in James, the devils believe, and tremble.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 27, 2015, 07:15:41 PM
something so insignificant, futile, and weak in comparison like human beings? Western theology is absurd.

So the answer must be Yes! Is not this better than writing us off and leaving us all to the eternal fires with no proffered opening for escape? We should be adoring his mercy, not questioning his way of relating to his creatures.
Agree.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 27, 2015, 07:21:29 PM
What do you mean by "I am saved only as by fire"?

It's a quotation from 1 Corinthians 3. Having stated that the foundation of our religion is Jesus Christ, Paul goes on to say that "if anyone builds on the foundation with ... wood, hay, stubble - each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.  ... If any man's work is burnt up he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." Thus, Paul is writing about a person whose Christian life and service earns no reward, indeed is likened to hay and stubble, fit only to be burnt up. On the Day of Judgement, that will happen to such a believer's work, and no reward will be given, but he himself will have his place in God's kingdom and not be damned along with those who have rejected Christ.

Verse 14 teaches the opposite, that "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward." Jesus gives some idea of the nature of the rewards in Luke 14.

Thus the phrase has nothing to do with any doctrine of a period in Purgatory: it refers to the Day of Judgement ("the Day will disclose it").
Thank you for your explanation.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 27, 2015, 07:34:23 PM
Can I also ask this...do Protestants believe that now since they are saved by the grace of faith,obedience to God (i.e. commandments) and Jesus's teachings as not as important as the belief in God and Christ?

I think the phrase "not as important" misses the point. Good works, and growth in holiness, are sought in every believer, and their importance are part of any real Christian life. The motivation is gratitude and a desire to please the God one loves. "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" asks Paul the Apostle, and replies, "God forbid" or "By no means!" Such an attitude is wholly out of place in any Christian.

Quote
Do Protestants believe that no matter what sins they commit they are saved anyway? Are there any sins , in Protestant's views, that can "unsave" a person?

It is debated, and different teachers and believers have different views. Calvinists believe it is impossible for a person to be lost once he is born again; he will endure to the end. The doctrine is the P of TULIP, where P stands for the Perseverance of the Saints. It is also called Eternal Security.
"Eternal Salvation" and "impossible for a person to be lost once he is born again", these concepts I had never come across before. So, even murderers and rapists will be saved as long as they have a faith? Do the Calvinists believe that at least they need to repent their sins?
And what verses of the Bible do Calvinists base such a belief of Eternal Security?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Peacemaker on January 27, 2015, 07:38:05 PM
No one has ever gone to hell for sinning, only when they don't repent.  :police:
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: Jude1:3 on January 27, 2015, 07:38:23 PM
Are there any sins that unforgivebale for God? I.e. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for example)




   One that I can think of off the top is The people who receive the Mark of The Beast and worship the the Beast.

*Revelation14:9-11
 
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man Worship the Beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 And the smoke of their Torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who Worship the Beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 28, 2015, 05:43:32 AM
So, even murderers and rapists will be saved as long as they have a faith?

It depends what you mean by -ers and -ists! If those suffixes mean that such activities spring from the settled, unchanged nature of the criminal, then the answer is no. But when another man seduced my wife, many years ago, I felt very much like driving a rusty knife into his gut and twisting it till he died a painful death. I didn't do it (!), but if I had, do you think God would have said to me, "David, you have sinned, and you can never come back to me"? I think there would have been room for remorse, repentance and return. As for rape - well, surely the same principle applies. If, in a moment of weakness, folly and opportunity, I were to rape an attractive and coquettish young woman, would that bar the way to repentance and forgiveness against me for all time? Surely God's grace is such that even such sins were covered at Calvary, and can be forgiven. But the repentance must of course be sincere.

I love to preach on the story of King Manasseh in the Old Testament. Can there possibly be a more sin-soaked man that he was? Yet in the end he turned and found mercy and forgiveness. This is the Gospel I hold out to those I preach to, having found mercy myself at Calvary.


Quote
Do the Calvinists believe that at least they need to repent their sins?

I have not said that I am a Calvinist, but I think I can explain something of their tenets. Again, it depends on what is meant by "need to repent". Certainly it is written in Acts that God commands all men everywhere to repent. But I think you may be asking this: If a real Christian were to fall into an appallingly heinous sin, would he need to repent if he were to avoid everlasting damnation? Certainly he ought to repent; certainly God calls him to repent: but there is the man in Corinth who was living incestuously with his own mother or step-mother, who was to be "delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5). It seems that here was a man who had become a believer, had fallen into serious sin,  and who would not repent and break off his sin; the expectation was that he would die in his sin.

Quote
And what verses of the Bible do Calvinists base such a belief of Eternal Security?  

For a full treatment you would need to read a Calvinist systematic theology. There are many passages which point, or seem to point by their plain surface meaning, to this belief. "None shall pluck them out of my hand"; "nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ"; "he will save his people from their sins". But it's more than just a string of proof texts - the doctrine is part of an entire system of thought, based on unconditional election and the idea that if Christ died to save me and in the end I am lost, then Christ failed, which is unthinkable: therefore, if he died for me, I shall and must be saved, therefore he died only for the elect. I am not saying I hold these teachings; I am trying to answer your question about what Calvinists (many of whom these days prefer the title Reformed) teach.

Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: pasadi97 on January 28, 2015, 08:47:23 AM
Quote
For a full treatment you would need to read a Calvinist systematic theology.

Theoretically, Sola Scriptura says no book beside Bible so no Calvinist systematic theology. Practically Sola Scriptura says no Apostles writtings beside Bible and yes to all new writings and books.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 28, 2015, 05:45:24 PM
So, even murderers and rapists will be saved as long as they have a faith?

It depends what you mean by -ers and -ists! If those suffixes mean that such activities spring from the settled, unchanged nature of the criminal, then the answer is no. But when another man seduced my wife, many years ago, I felt very much like driving a rusty knife into his gut and twisting it till he died a painful death. I didn't do it (!), but if I had, do you think God would have said to me, "David, you have sinned, and you can never come back to me"? I think there would have been room for remorse, repentance and return. As for rape - well, surely the same principle applies. If, in a moment of weakness, folly and opportunity, I were to rape an attractive and coquettish young woman, would that bar the way to repentance and forgiveness against me for all time? Surely God's grace is such that even such sins were covered at Calvary, and can be forgiven. But the repentance must of course be sincere.

Yes, I suppose if you have sinned it once i.e. rape out of what ever reason and then repented God may forgive.However, can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?
What I mean is If one believes that he's a born-again,hence is now Eternally Saved, goes on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway , surely there must be some kind of limits even in Calvinism..?

What I am trying to say is that Protestants,such as Calvinists, in my opinion, would be less afraid to sin due to their belief Once Save Always Saved, than say an Orthodox who believe that he should avoid sinning at all costs because a sin is an obstacle to the path of Salvation..
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 28, 2015, 05:50:38 PM
So, even murderers and rapists will be saved as long as they have a faith?

It depends what you mean by -ers and -ists! If those suffixes mean that such activities spring from the settled, unchanged nature of the criminal, then the answer is no. But when another man seduced my wife, many years ago, I felt very much like driving a rusty knife into his gut and twisting it till he died a painful death. I didn't do it (!), but if I had, do you think God would have said to me, "David, you have sinned, and you can never come back to me"? I think there would have been room for remorse, repentance and return. As for rape - well, surely the same principle applies. If, in a moment of weakness, folly and opportunity, I were to rape an attractive and coquettish young woman, would that bar the way to repentance and forgiveness against me for all time? Surely God's grace is such that even such sins were covered at Calvary, and can be forgiven. But the repentance must of course be sincere.

I love to preach on the story of King Manasseh in the Old Testament. Can there possibly be a more sin-soaked man that he was? Yet in the end he turned and found mercy and forgiveness. This is the Gospel I hold out to those I preach to, having found mercy myself at Calvary.


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Do the Calvinists believe that at least they need to repent their sins?

I have not said that I am a Calvinist, but I think I can explain something of their tenets. Again, it depends on what is meant by "need to repent". Certainly it is written in Acts that God commands all men everywhere to repent. But I think you may be asking this: If a real Christian were to fall into an appallingly heinous sin, would he need to repent if he were to avoid everlasting damnation? Certainly he ought to repent; certainly God calls him to repent: but there is the man in Corinth who was living incestuously with his own mother or step-mother, who was to be "delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 5). It seems that here was a man who had become a believer, had fallen into serious sin,  and who would not repent and break off his sin; the expectation was that he would die in his sin.

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And what verses of the Bible do Calvinists base such a belief of Eternal Security?  

For a full treatment you would need to read a Calvinist systematic theology. There are many passages which point, or seem to point by their plain surface meaning, to this belief. "None shall pluck them out of my hand"; "nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ"; "he will save his people from their sins". But it's more than just a string of proof texts - the doctrine is part of an entire system of thought, based on unconditional election and the idea that if Christ died to save me and in the end I am lost, then Christ failed, which is unthinkable: therefore, if he died for me, I shall and must be saved, therefore he died only for the elect. I am not saying I hold these teachings; I am trying to answer your question about what Calvinists (many of whom these days prefer the title Reformed) teach.


Thank you for sharing your knowledge,David!
Ive learned a few things now.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 28, 2015, 06:04:12 PM
can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?

I think the nub of your question is found in the word compulsive. Is it a matter of degree? I mean, we all sin, and probably commit the same sin (anger, pride, quick unkind words, inappropriate flippancy, &c &c) many times, but the word compulsive has a kind of psychiatric ring to it. I knew a chap who longed to be a missionary, yet he could not break the habit of going to see pornographic films. He hated what he did, but had never found the moral strength to break the habit. (Maybe now he has: I haven't seen him for years.) Now we are not discussing whether he should become a missionary, but whether God would be merciful to him not seven times, but seventy times seven (and more). There are people, and Christians among their number, who have deeply ingrained habits which they hate and long to be free of, and yet find themselves creeping with shame and unworthiness back into the Lord's presence with words like, "Lord, I've done it again. Please forgive me," and no doubt they feel they could equal St Paul in being "the chief of sinners".

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What I mean is If one believes that he's ... now Eternally Saved, goes on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway , surely there must be some kind of limits even in Calvinism..?

Aren't you here really asking whether there are limits, not to Calvinism (which hardly matters one way or the other), but to God's mercy? I don't think such a person would "go on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway," but would be more like the people I describe in my above paragraph. If he didn't care about the fact that he was repeatedly falling into sin, it is not likely that he would be a child of God. We are not to presume on God's mercy: thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (or "put the Lord to the test"). This would be akin to the temptations Satan put to our Lord in the wilderness: throw yourself down from the temple - God will protect you anyway.

May the Lord give us grace to grieve bitterly over our sins, but may he never cease to have mercy upon us. Such at least is my need before him.

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What I am trying to say is that Protestants,such as Calvinists, in my opinion, would be less afraid to sin due to their belief Once Save Always Saved, than say an Orthodox who believe that he should avoid sinning at all costs because a sin is an obstacle to the path of Salvation..

We are here speculating about other people's inner anxieties or sense of security. Such a person might, as you say, feel less afraid of eternal damnation, but sin is certainly an obstacle on the path of sanctification and growth in conformity to Christ's character, and the real "fear of the Lord" is not only fear of hell, but a deeply sensitive desire not to offend the God who has done so much for us, indeed, whose Son paid such an awful price for our salvation when he hung nailed to a Roman cross.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2015, 06:09:41 PM
If that is how the omnipotent God has chosen to relate to us, we cannot oppose his decision.

No, but it doesn't mean He's right though. This type of God sounds unlikable.

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the answer must be Yes! Is not this better than writing us off and leaving us all to the eternal fires with no proffered opening for escape? We should be adoring his mercy, not questioning his way of relating to his creatures.

He could have always offer us the option to not exist. He never gave us that choice but like a Divine Jigsaw, forced every human being who exists into playing His cosmic chess game where the repercussions for failure are eternal. And nobody asked to be in it; He forced us to. He never gave the option to not exist.

God caring about what humans think of Him and judging them based off that would be like me throwing my sister's ant farm in the fireplace because they won't praise me. It's kind of absurd, and seems to suggest narcissism and a strong sense of insecurity.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 28, 2015, 06:12:11 PM
can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?

I think the nub of your question is found in the word compulsive. Is it a matter of degree? I mean, we all sin, and probably commit the same sin (anger, pride, quick unkind words, inappropriate flippancy, &c &c) many times, but the word compulsive has a kind of psychiatric ring to it. I knew a chap who longed to be a missionary, yet he could not break the habit of going to see pornographic films. He hated what he did, but had never found the moral strength to break the habit. (Maybe now he has: I haven't seen him for years.) Now we are not discussing whether he should become a missionary, but whether God would be merciful to him not seven times, but seventy times seven (and more). There are people, and Christians among their number, who have deeply ingrained habits which they hate and long to be free of, and yet find themselves creeping with shame and unworthiness back into the Lord's presence with words like, "Lord, I've done it again. Please forgive me," and no doubt they feel they could equal St Paul in being "the chief of sinners".

I know what you are trying to say here...what I would say in this case is that we should not be saying that no matter what we do we will be saved regardless, this sort of doctrine gives us an excuse to do what ever one wishes...I could be wrong but nobody should be 100% sure of his salvation until the Judgement Day, until then we should try to continusly be as righteous as possible and pray for God's mercy ahead for the Last day.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 29, 2015, 02:23:33 PM
can compulsive sinners, who nevertheless have the faith, they be forgiven if they keep sinning and repeanting and then carry on sinning again?

I think the nub of your question is found in the word compulsive. Is it a matter of degree? I mean, we all sin, and probably commit the same sin (anger, pride, quick unkind words, inappropriate flippancy, &c &c) many times, but the word compulsive has a kind of psychiatric ring to it. I knew a chap who longed to be a missionary, yet he could not break the habit of going to see pornographic films. He hated what he did, but had never found the moral strength to break the habit. (Maybe now he has: I haven't seen him for years.) Now we are not discussing whether he should become a missionary, but whether God would be merciful to him not seven times, but seventy times seven (and more). There are people, and Christians among their number, who have deeply ingrained habits which they hate and long to be free of, and yet find themselves creeping with shame and unworthiness back into the Lord's presence with words like, "Lord, I've done it again. Please forgive me," and no doubt they feel they could equal St Paul in being "the chief of sinners".

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What I mean is If one believes that he's ... now Eternally Saved, goes on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway , surely there must be some kind of limits even in Calvinism..?

Aren't you here really asking whether there are limits, not to Calvinism (which hardly matters one way or the other), but to God's mercy? I don't think such a person would "go on sinning because he knows his sins will be forgiven anyway," but would be more like the people I describe in my above paragraph. If he didn't care about the fact that he was repeatedly falling into sin, it is not likely that he would be a child of God. We are not to presume on God's mercy: thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God (or "put the Lord to the test"). This would be akin to the temptations Satan put to our Lord in the wilderness: throw yourself down from the temple - God will protect you anyway.

May the Lord give us grace to grieve bitterly over our sins, but may he never cease to have mercy upon us. Such at least is my need before him.

Last question on this, do Protestants believe that they will be judged on the Last Day?
I think we will all be judged and should not be so confident that, no matter what we do in our lives, we will are guaranted to be saved, this will be ultimately up to God at the end of the day.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 29, 2015, 02:33:44 PM
If that is how the omnipotent God has chosen to relate to us, we cannot oppose his decision.

No, but it doesn't mean He's right though. This type of God sounds unlikable.

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the answer must be Yes! Is not this better than writing us off and leaving us all to the eternal fires with no proffered opening for escape? We should be adoring his mercy, not questioning his way of relating to his creatures.

He could have always offer us the option to not exist. He never gave us that choice but like a Divine Jigsaw, forced every human being who exists into playing His cosmic chess game where the repercussions for failure are eternal. And nobody asked to be in it; He forced us to. He never gave the option to not exist.

God caring about what humans think of Him and judging them based off that would be like me throwing my sister's ant farm in the fireplace because they won't praise me. It's kind of absurd, and seems to suggest narcissism and a strong sense of insecurity.
I'd not speak about Him like that. At the end of the day God has given you life. He has laid out the rules which you should adhere to and if it's difficult for you, then it's not God's issue it is yours. You have a free will/choice to either do it or not and then see what happen in the after life...
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 29, 2015, 04:51:05 PM
do Protestants believe that they will be judged on the Last Day?

Yes, as you say:

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"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.

What will be decided is not whether a person shall be saved or damned, but (for Christians) what reward, if any, may be assigned for his works.

Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 30, 2015, 03:43:24 PM
do Protestants believe that they will be judged on the Last Day?

Yes, as you say:

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"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" as per 2 Corinthians 5:10.

What will be decided is not whether a person shall be saved or damned, but (for Christians) what reward, if any, may be assigned for his works.



So, any sins of Christians won't be judged or taken into account?
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: David Young on January 30, 2015, 04:46:25 PM
So, any sins of Christians won't be judged or taken into account?

I think this takes me beyond what I foreknow. The "mechanism" of the judgement is not known to us in that detail, I think. I am saying that no true Christian will be sent to hell, and that all our works will be judged, some being entirely burnt up and thus lost, others gaining rewards in the coming age. But how God will balance good and bad works, sin and virtue, lies beyond my ken. We know this though, that the Judge of all the earth will certainly not err.
Title: Re: Our Salvation
Post by: andrewlya on January 31, 2015, 03:40:29 PM
So, any sins of Christians won't be judged or taken into account?

I think this takes me beyond what I foreknow. The "mechanism" of the judgement is not known to us in that detail, I think. I am saying that no true Christian will be sent to hell, and that all our works will be judged, some being entirely burnt up and thus lost, others gaining rewards in the coming age. But how God will balance good and bad works, sin and virtue, lies beyond my ken. We know this though, that the Judge of all the earth will certainly not err.
Thank you David for explaining the Protestant view of Salvation.
Much appreciate.

God bless.