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Moderated Forums => Convert Issues => Topic started by: Anna.T on June 09, 2014, 10:02:38 PM

Title: Question about vestments?
Post by: Anna.T on June 09, 2014, 10:02:38 PM
I've been wondering something, and haven't been able to find it in drawings.

The priest wears something that looks like a stiff square in the same fabric as the outer vestments, with tassels I think. IIRC, it hangs to the front rather low (about knee high) on his right side. I don't see any particular purpose for it, but I'm sure it has a significance.

Not sure what to call it though. Can anyone explain about that?

I was just curious.

And are there any detailed information about the significance of colors? I'm guessing this can vary between jurisdictions, as I have seen photos of Russian Orthodox, for example, in different color vestments for a particular feast?

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Sam G on June 09, 2014, 10:17:49 PM
Is it the square on the left side of picture at about the waist?(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png)
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Sam G on June 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
Found it on Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png)

It's an award given to priests for their service to the Church by their bishop.  In my parish it is only worn by the two priests we have who are archpriests.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: CopticDeacon on June 09, 2014, 10:23:11 PM
I've been wondering something, and haven't been able to find it in drawings.

The priest wears something that looks like a stiff square in the same fabric as the outer vestments, with tassels I think. IIRC, it hangs to the front rather low (about knee high) on his right side. I don't see any particular purpose for it, but I'm sure it has a significance.

Not sure what to call it though. Can anyone explain about that?

I was just curious.

And are there any detailed information about the significance of colors? I'm guessing this can vary between jurisdictions, as I have seen photos of Russian Orthodox, for example, in different color vestments for a particular feast?

Thanks. :)

Shame that the Copt who's bishops don't wear this is answering this question  ;)

It's called (in Greek) the epigonation. It literally means "over the knee". It's worn by all EO bishops and can be awarded to priests. It comes from the Byzantine tradition of awarding ceremonial swords that came with ornate shields that were worn on the thigh. This now represents the protection of Christ on his priests. It's worn over the right knee. In the Russian tradition, a priest maybe awarded this and/or another vestment that hangs in its place that is square instead of a diamond. If a Russian priest wears both, he moves the diamond shaped one to the left knee and wears the square/rectangle over the right.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Mor Ephrem on June 09, 2014, 10:39:19 PM
If a Russian priest wears both, he moves the diamond shaped one to the left knee abd wears the square/rectangle over the right.

I've only ever seen it the other way around: diamond over right knee, rectangle over left. 
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Anna.T on June 10, 2014, 12:01:26 AM
It may be a diamond then. It's essentially square, but it hangs from a corner so it could be called a diamond. I'm pretty sure it's about knee height, not waist, because it's very visible (the outer vestments would probably cover it if it was too high?

So it's basically some kind of award?

He deserves one.  The only priest, and no deacon, so he works very hard, trying to do for all the groups, including kids, youth, and seniors. But I don't know if the award has anything to do with that. :)

Thanks for the answers. :)
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: LBK on June 10, 2014, 01:20:18 AM
Quote
And are there any detailed information about the significance of colors? I'm guessing this can vary between jurisdictions, as I have seen photos of Russian Orthodox, for example, in different color vestments for a particular feast

Churches in the Greek tradition have a much looser tradition of vestment and church drape colors than do the Russians and most other Slavs. The basic variations in the Greek are "bright" and "dark", with "dark" being used during the four Lenten periods.

Russian tradition is more highly developed. While their typikons continue to specify simply "bright" or "dark", in practice, the system is more elaborate, when resources allow it:


There are slight regional and even parish variations to this, but the above generally applies.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: username! on June 10, 2014, 02:02:55 AM
It's Russian
 To wear red on Pascha
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: LBK on June 10, 2014, 02:04:01 AM
It's Russian
 To wear red on Pascha

Moscow, yes. Other regions, not necessarily.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: username! on June 10, 2014, 02:11:48 AM
St Tikhon's Monastery does this in Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: LBK on June 10, 2014, 02:13:47 AM
St Tikhon's Monastery does this in Pennsylvania.

Please see the last line of reply #6.  :police:
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Basil 320 on June 10, 2014, 03:14:43 AM
Found it on Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png)

It's an award given to priests for their service to the Church by their bishop.  In my parish it is only worn by the two priests we have who are archpriests.

It's not quite "an award." The "Epigonation" is associated with the "official titles" ("offikia") granted or accorded to priests over time, such as "Sakelarios" and "Economos" (Steward).
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: DeniseDenise on June 10, 2014, 05:31:28 AM
St Tikhon's Monastery does this in Pennsylvania.

Please see the last line of reply #6.  :police:

I was just taking this as proof that Penn. is really some sort of satellite campus of Moscow.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: username! on June 10, 2014, 06:03:09 AM
St Tikhon's Monastery does this in Pennsylvania.

Please see the last line of reply #6.  :police:

I was just taking this as proof that Penn. is really some sort of satellite campus of Moscow.

 :laugh:
Never! 
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: LizaSymonenko on June 10, 2014, 06:06:27 AM

My Ukrainian priest, wears red on Pascha, as well.

:)

Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Anna.T on June 10, 2014, 02:15:28 PM
Found it on Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Orthodox_Priest_Liturgy.png)

It's an award given to priests for their service to the Church by their bishop.  In my parish it is only worn by the two priests we have who are archpriests.

It's not quite "an award." The "Epigonation" is associated with the "official titles" ("offikia") granted or accorded to priests over time, such as "Sakelarios" and "Economos" (Steward).

Thanks for the further info. I guess maybe I will ask Fr. M. about it sometime. I was just curious, as I think he maybe always wears one during Divine Liturgy but I did not see it when I looked online and had no idea what it was for.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Anna.T on June 10, 2014, 02:24:24 PM
Quote
And are there any detailed information about the significance of colors? I'm guessing this can vary between jurisdictions, as I have seen photos of Russian Orthodox, for example, in different color vestments for a particular feast

Churches in the Greek tradition have a much looser tradition of vestment and church drape colors than do the Russians and most other Slavs. The basic variations in the Greek are "bright" and "dark", with "dark" being used during the four Lenten periods.

Russian tradition is more highly developed. While their typikons continue to specify simply "bright" or "dark", in practice, the system is more elaborate, when resources allow it:

  • Green for Palm Sunday, Pentecost (including the week after Pentecost) and feasts of prophets and saints who are holy fools
  • Purple for Great Lent
  • Black for Holy Week
  • White for Easter, Bright Week, up to Pentecost; also the period between the Nativity and the leave-taking of Theophany (sometimes extended to the day before Great Lent begins)
  • Blue for feasts of the Mother of God
  • Red for lenten periods other than Great Lent
  • Gold for all other times.

There are slight regional and even parish variations to this, but the above generally applies.


I don't know what "holy fools" are. :)

Thank you for the info.

It may depend too on what is available. I know they just got green vestments for Fr. M. recently.

I do remember purple for lent. I'm not sure he had black for Holy Week, but he switched to white for Pascha.

I think Palm Sunday was green, and he has used green several times since then, including last two weeks I think.

I haven't seen the year - not even close - yet.

The Antiochian I went to, I think I remember his in black, and that was before Lent I think. That parish was newer though, and still working on getting the church painted.
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: DeniseDenise on June 10, 2014, 02:35:14 PM
Quote
And are there any detailed information about the significance of colors? I'm guessing this can vary between jurisdictions, as I have seen photos of Russian Orthodox, for example, in different color vestments for a particular feast

Churches in the Greek tradition have a much looser tradition of vestment and church drape colors than do the Russians and most other Slavs. The basic variations in the Greek are "bright" and "dark", with "dark" being used during the four Lenten periods.

Russian tradition is more highly developed. While their typikons continue to specify simply "bright" or "dark", in practice, the system is more elaborate, when resources allow it:

  • Green for Palm Sunday, Pentecost (including the week after Pentecost) and feasts of prophets and saints who are holy fools
  • Purple for Great Lent
  • Black for Holy Week
  • White for Easter, Bright Week, up to Pentecost; also the period between the Nativity and the leave-taking of Theophany (sometimes extended to the day before Great Lent begins)
  • Blue for feasts of the Mother of God
  • Red for lenten periods other than Great Lent
  • Gold for all other times.

There are slight regional and even parish variations to this, but the above generally applies.


I don't know what "holy fools" are. :)





http://orthodoxwiki.org/Fool-for-Christ

that's a quick overview
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Anna.T on June 10, 2014, 03:04:25 PM
Quote
And are there any detailed information about the significance of colors? I'm guessing this can vary between jurisdictions, as I have seen photos of Russian Orthodox, for example, in different color vestments for a particular feast

Churches in the Greek tradition have a much looser tradition of vestment and church drape colors than do the Russians and most other Slavs. The basic variations in the Greek are "bright" and "dark", with "dark" being used during the four Lenten periods.

Russian tradition is more highly developed. While their typikons continue to specify simply "bright" or "dark", in practice, the system is more elaborate, when resources allow it:

  • Green for Palm Sunday, Pentecost (including the week after Pentecost) and feasts of prophets and saints who are holy fools
  • Purple for Great Lent
  • Black for Holy Week
  • White for Easter, Bright Week, up to Pentecost; also the period between the Nativity and the leave-taking of Theophany (sometimes extended to the day before Great Lent begins)
  • Blue for feasts of the Mother of God
  • Red for lenten periods other than Great Lent
  • Gold for all other times.

There are slight regional and even parish variations to this, but the above generally applies.


I don't know what "holy fools" are. :)





http://orthodoxwiki.org/Fool-for-Christ

that's a quick overview

Thank you. That's very interesting. I've heard similar statements, but I did not know it was a particular "kind of saint" or that someone set about it, or for what reasons or what they did.

That's really very interesting. Battling the sin of pride, eh? Ugh ...  that's a nasty one.

I think I need to think about this some more, and maybe read up on some of these saints. Thank you so much. :)
Title: Re: Question about vestments?
Post by: Porter ODoran on June 13, 2014, 10:24:04 PM
I don't know what "holy fools" are. :)

Oh, gosh, they're the best!