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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 03:14:48 PM

Title: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 03:14:48 PM
This is a discussion going on in the Faith Issues section.  Since I am currently not practicing Eastern Orthodoxy, I wanted to bring the discussion here.   This is not an intent to bash Eastern Orthodoxy at all by me.  In fact, it is a reflection on the tradition, where Eastern Orthodox women did head cover.   JamesR speaks well beyond his years, as he recognizes the fundamentals of the exploitation of tradition.  Quoting:

Some people are frequently attracted to Orthodoxy by smells and bells and not for its deep spirituality and theology.

What I have found interesting is that precisely those who are most advanced spiritually seem to be the most insistent on such things as head coverings on women, beards on priest, riassas on clergy, etc.  Of course, these things alone are useless if one is not striving to follow the commandments of Christ, repent of their sins, etc.  But, if one reads the lives of contemporary saints and elders, including that great Elder Paisios who is so full of love for everyone, one can find many such instructions and comments encouraging the strict observance of what we have received from the apostles, both external and internal.  

So, once again, we see another false dichotomy.  

You have just proven my point. Obsession with these externals almost always leads to spiritual pride. When you presume to judge the spirituality of another person, clergy or laity, you are guilty of spiritual pride. Who are you to judge who is advanced spiritually or who really understands the teachings of our Church? I know one thing one sure way to know that a person is not really spiritual is that they claim to be spiritual or judge the spirituality of someone else. The truly spiritual person is so consumed with the knowledge of their own sins that they are too busy to judge the spirituality of anyone else.

Fr. John W. Morris

Look I don't have a dog in this argument, but let me tell you of my own weakness.

First I have to open the doorway of understanding.  If a woman comes into church with a tight skirt and low cut shirt, men will "notice".  I think we all agree on this.  She stands out and causes brothers to fall.

If a man sits at a table full of nuns who are all covered, dressed as a nuns, and near the same "age of your particular attraction" (yeah right but stay with me here) a man "MAY" notice who is the prettiest, but will be reminded by her faith and her position.    It's almost like having a smack upside the head to quit being a fleshy beast when seeing their clothes and covering.

If a man sits at a table full of nuns and a "normally dressed" parishoner of the same "age of attraction" joins the group - and is wearing pants, make up, and is not covered - the man is most likely to focus on her and hopefully the wheels won't start turning.

If a nun happens to visit a male monastery, she won't invoke nearly as much as a parishoner who would have long hair and/or pretty hair and figure hugging clothes.

On Mt. Athos, a woman with long beautiful hair flipping it all over would be nearly considered pornographic, as she would be causing some temptation.  In fact there are many parts they are not allowed at all.

In our culture, we see women uncovered all the time, so here is my story -

I was once out on a Mennonite charity function and I was around no other women for 5 days 4 nights than covered modest dressed Mennonite women.  (My wife was raised Mennonite).   Anyway, let me tell you -

We went to a gas station thereafter, and just a "regular worldly dressed woman" came in. (no revealing clothes or anything out of the "norm").  Brothers, I was struggling...   I had no idea I had that type of problem!  It was hair, regular non tight pants, regular shirt....    I seriously realized I had a deep spiritual problem in this area!

I don't know if its me isolated, but I believe we men "look" more than we think we do.  The impact of seeing somebody like that is what I'm comparing to after sitting at a table of nuns.  I also am curious if hair uncovered (a woman's glory) is a distraction to men in the church.

Men if your wife normally covers her hair, and you see her take it down, it grabs your attention doesn't it?  It feels special because it is "saved" for you.   Some on this board could probably vouch for this who have wives that cover except in privacy.

I'm not making any statements towards the EO church or what they should do.  All I can say is if I ever re-attend the church, as a sinner, uncovered hair would cause me some distraction (very small, but existing).

Please be forewarned, I'm trying to delve into the depths of sin.  I don't frown on any of these women, but am only speaking of my weakness, and the weaknesses I've heard other men express on occasion.


If I could just add to this,

The Orthodox head-covering has NOTHING to do with "modesty" and not arousing men. Corinthians makes it clear that it carries mystical significance; St. Paul never said anything about it relating to men.

If that were the case, I'd find a woman dressed in some exotic head-covering to be more arousing and distracting than a woman dressed like "normal."

I think we need to keep the real meaning behind the head-covering in mind when discussing this.

I sent JamesR this link:
http://www.orthodox.net/cotc/modesty.html (http://www.orthodox.net/cotc/modesty.html) which shows other Orthodox Christians discussing the modesty in head covering (some).   I bolded JamesR's words.

James brought up an ABSOLUTELY fantastic observation.   Sin, leads people away from God, and causes us to be distracted from our target.  I completely honor Eastern Orthodox nuns as they don't pose (much) distraction for men.  With head coverings, like any other accessories, men can be exploited.  Lacy stylish coverings can be worn in such a way to "attract" men.  

Also, I am going to be fair and NOT post photos of "super models in coverings slothered in make up", but "real women".
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pRBh2MaPdqM/UCQngXx_UfI/AAAAAAAAYUA/1Prenu8HAE4/s1600/ksenia2.jpg)

For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Next:
(http://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Orthodox-pilgrim.jpg)

Would this outfit cause you distraction men?  Semi-tight and see through holes on the sleeves?  Though conservative, there is a lot of neck showing.  NO not low cut.  But would it cause you to be distracted in church?

Next:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7kcjb9Pto1qda55jo1_500.jpg)
Would this nun cause you to fall like any of the others?  She is younger, yet her garments would remind me of her place.  She isn't in stylish clothes for distraction and modestly dressed.   Even if you began to slightly fall and just her face causes you to lust, would you not get a "spiritual smack" upside the head by her garments?  She's not competing with her sisters either in clothes.  She's not trying to stand out either.


Next:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yNjywnTGNkY/TxErvMqM4UI/AAAAAAAAA7E/Ig6mn---UBs/s1600/black+veil+tagged.jpg)
Is a black lace veil that matches an outfit and worn this way being used to "enhance" her beauty?  Note the "bling" on the veil, and that it matches the lace on the low cut bust area.  Would this be distracting for you men?  Women do you see this as a submission to God and for modesty, or to give an accessory to an outfit?  (Not judging to young lady, I respect she even covers)


All I can observe from all of this is that if a standard head covering and conservative clothing (similar to nun), that much distraction and competition can occur.

These are some of the arguments I've made in the past on the way Mennonites dress, as it is not for self gain, is not worldly, is not fashionable.  However, most grow to be "family women".
(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

Old order Orthodox are fairly similar.   THERE WERE NOT ANY GOOD PHOTO EXAMPLES.  This is the best I could find.
(http://theinnerkingdom.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/file_2_3_164.jpg)

The way they wear their veils is not for self gain.  The dress seems plain enough.

I do not judge these women.  I believe they are trying.  But I do not think that many women understand how much they can make a brother fall, even if in small ways.  I absolutely can't believe the bikini girls next to the bishops though DURING services (probably Theophany).  I'll spare you those photos.  Every man in that church was probably falling, including the clergy.

So that's my opinion on the matter.  I believe women should consider that men fall on very little things and also that the scriptures AND in most of the tradition of the EO church is about covering and modesty.



Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 03:20:08 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 03:36:56 PM
The American diet has managed to rid me of my weakness.

Anyway, I just gotta say how Islamic of you YiM, placing the moral agency of men on the bodies of women.

Really, your libido ain't that big of a deal.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 23, 2014, 03:37:29 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on January 23, 2014, 03:37:38 PM
I'm sorry, but the pictures here are ridiculous to me. As long as the girl doesn't have really tight clothing or too much skin showing, I'm probably not going to notice. Teenage boys will find a way to be attracted to some bizzare things either way, and I don't think that the women need to be disrespected by scrutinizing every thread of every outfit.

To me this thread makes you come off as having an unhealthy obsession with the women around you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 03:40:21 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P

That is true, LBK. A niqab to cover the beard is essential.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on January 23, 2014, 03:42:21 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P

That is true, LBK. A niqab to cover the beard is essential.

What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 03:42:39 PM
I'm sorry, but the pictures here are ridiculous to me. As long as the girl doesn't have really tight clothing or too much skin showing, I'm probably not going to notice. Teenage boys will find a way to be attracted to some bizzare things either way, and I don't think that the women need to be disrespected by scrutinizing every thread of every outfit.

To me this thread makes you come off as having an unhealthy obsession with the women around you.

Mor covered this so to speak before and I added to it, but really the solution to pathological male libidinal issues isn't the removal of women and covering them as much as possible when they are around, but rather in the inclusion of women as much as possible in all aspects of life and allowing them to enjoy whatever modesty they wish.

Otherwise, men go a bit crazy, see boys' locker rooms, construction sites, various religious groups, the 50s, etc.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 03:44:31 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pRBh2MaPdqM/UCQngXx_UfI/AAAAAAAAYUA/1Prenu8HAE4/s1600/ksenia2.jpg)

For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 03:49:48 PM
What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?

I think that's definitely possible. I think the attitude that women are such sex objects that they need to be covered up in a burqa isn't actually solving anything re: looking upon women lustfully, and totally insulting to men.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 03:51:48 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 23, 2014, 03:58:49 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 04:00:25 PM
What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?

I think that's definitely possible. I think the attitude that women are such sex objects that they need to be covered up in a burqa isn't actually solving anything re: looking upon women lustfully, and totally insulting to men.

TBF, the structure of the burqa is more complex than that and much like sex glass reveals as much at it attempts to obscure often in arguably radical trajectories.  

Spending time around women in burqas is interesting. As is turning a corner on a Saturday night to buy smokes at the local Arabs' and literally running into a woman in a burqa. It put a rather hilarious spin on the worn out plot device.

That time was certainly demonstrative to me as man about many things as is the typical talk in the West around burqas or here about women's modesty and men's weakness.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 04:04:47 PM
Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration

Aberrations are usually considered in the their degree of monstrosity in inverse proportion to the degree they are aberrations. That is another thread and another time. But your statement really does nothing more than highlight the sexual excess of men so speak.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 04:08:50 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

Welcome to being a man. TBF to YIM and a point Shiny was trying to make is how sick most guys are really here and pretty much everywhere.

Being a man who isn't sick in this manner, I have to listen to such stuff a lot, especially when I was younger and didn't know how to steer out of such talk. I don't care for girl talk much, whether it be from straight guys, gay guys, or women. For better and worse I had childhood that predisposed me to protecting the intimacy of others, so locker room talk or its inverse, the moralizing talk about women, has never sat well with me.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 04:11:47 PM
What if we find burquas sexy? What if the notion that we men can so dominate women as to turn them into black clouds really arouses us?

I think that's definitely possible. I think the attitude that women are such sex objects that they need to be covered up in a burqa isn't actually solving anything re: looking upon women lustfully, and totally insulting to men.

TBF, the structure of the burqa is more complex than that and much like sex glass reveals as much at it attempts to obscure often in arguably radical trajectories.  

Spending time around women in burqas is interesting. As is turning a corner on a Saturday night to buy smokes at the local Arabs' and literally running into a woman in a burqa. It put a rather hilarious spin on the worn out plot device.

That time was certainly demonstrative to me as man about many things as is the typical talk in the West around burqas or here about women's modesty and men's weakness.

I agree that burqas are more complex than what we're discussing, but in the context of this thread I think it's an appropriate example (as Alveus highlighted) that even something we perceive as so extreme isn't enough. Dressing myself modestly so that no man is tempted is an impossible standard- and it ain't because I think I'm Helen of Troy. At some point way earlier than the lengths YiM is referencing, the onus is on the viewer to self-regulate.

And my poncho comment was mostly jest, but I am seriously wondering why the burden is always seemingly on women to not tempt men without reference to the flip side? If you (general you) don't think women can also be visually tempted, just mention Magic Mike next time you're around a group of them.  ::)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 04:15:34 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

Welcome to being a man. TBF to YIM and a point Shiny was trying to make is how sick most guys are really here and pretty much everywhere.

Well, that is a bummer.  :(
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 23, 2014, 04:17:06 PM
My officemate, a Hindu from India, and I had a similar conversation.  He felt that Islam was saying men are so weak they can't control themselves so the women have to be covered because of the weakness of men.  My Iranian roommates in college shared that the chador didn't really protect them, out in the street strange men made a game of groping them.  And to what point does this end, to where women have to wear a black veil, socks and gloves in the heat if Saudi Arabia because men freak out if your wrists show?

One one point I agree it's better to dress more modestly with consideration of your environment.  And to not wear prayer veils just because they look good.  My grandmother was a cocktail waitress and I have her prayer veils and they are a bit snazzier than the normal prayer veil.  Shimmery gold lace, or black mesh with gold accent lace, etc.  And I know that I want to wear them, not to be modest, but because they are so becoming.  So I don't wear them.  But it does seem a bit of a punishment of women to expect everyone to dress in an Amish manner.  And some women can look quite sexy fully covered while others can be half naked without the same effect.  Same with men.  So it's kinda subjective.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 04:22:24 PM

It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?

He also presumes that sexual stumbling/misconduct/perversions don't happen in societies such as the Mennonite one (hand over those rose coloured glasses...they need to be broken)...he is absolutely WRONG. Sometimes, those are the places where sexual misconduct happens more and even to the point of being crazy scary, because the whole thinking on sexuality is twisted and deflection of person responsibility for one's own actions is the norm.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Aedificare on January 23, 2014, 04:25:20 PM
I don't think it's proper to post people who are supposedly wearing wrong clothes to Church, no matter if it's true or not.

A woman can be beautiful and distracting no matter what she wears, I think the point still stands, to maybe rephrase it:
Veils are about modesty to God and not really about modesty to men.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 23, 2014, 05:01:38 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.

(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 05:10:06 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.

(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

It looks like a "street preaching" event. The girls have hymnals in their hands and appear to be waiting to sing. Some may have looked forward to the event and others are may be there because they are expected to be there. (turquoise almost looks like a Kramer and two girls to the left definitely looks like a Weaver...both in physical traits as well as style choices on their dresses LOL!) And, believe it or not, some of those girls have their hair pulled back and others have their hair styled (what we call "wings", which is quite tricky to do and requires time and lots of hairspray or gel). Those are unmarried teens. By the time I took my hair down at night, my head felt like a pin cushion and the hairnets were very damaging. Many of the women in those communities of balding spots from the way they have to pin their hair up to get them under the plastic net kapps (yes, plastic).
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 23, 2014, 05:14:21 PM
Magic Mike

Depends if they are of the Sex in the City turn Girls crowd or not, which is to say gay men posing as women. I know many, many women who would find such stuff properly repugnant.

Others, not so much. But while Queer Eye for the Straight Guy might be a relatively new thing one could argue, the Gay Lens for Wymynz is not.

Playgirl was never for girlz. And no straight man ever dreamt up the madness of "fashion" and "women's" magazines and the illnesses they have wrought in women.

This has nothing to do with the typical argument about whether women are "visual", I do think most are able to see. The question of women's vision has always been through which man is she doing the seeing? And is there a possibility of sight for a woman without recourse to a man? That is the interesting question.

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 23, 2014, 05:18:49 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pRBh2MaPdqM/UCQngXx_UfI/AAAAAAAAYUA/1Prenu8HAE4/s1600/ksenia2.jpg)

For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?

To be honest, I didn't notice it until you pointed it out.  And upon closer examination, it doesn't seem all that low cut to me unless we're going to define skin as skin to be a problem. 

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The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

You mean "stand out" like the two guys in the background talking to each other during the Liturgy?  The one wears a pink polo shirt and sneakers, while the other appears to be wearing some sort of tank top/t-shirt (also with sneakers), chit-chatting away during prayer.  None of that bothers you...just the "tight" clothes on the girls lighting candles. 

When I look at that photo, I'm not turned on.  That's no slight to the women depicted, but it is what it is.   

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Next:
(http://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Orthodox-pilgrim.jpg)

Would this outfit cause you distraction men?  Semi-tight and see through holes on the sleeves?  Though conservative, there is a lot of neck showing.  NO not low cut.  But would it cause you to be distracted in church?

She's beautiful. 

I wouldn't be turned on just by noticing that.  I'd have to stand there, like the guy in the pink polo shirt, not paying attention to the Liturgy but gazing at her for a considerable amount of time and imagining stuff in order to be turned on.  At that point, it would not be appropriate to blame "see through holes" and "lot of neck" for my own thoughts. 

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Next:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7kcjb9Pto1qda55jo1_500.jpg)
Would this nun cause you to fall like any of the others?  She is younger, yet her garments would remind me of her place.  She isn't in stylish clothes for distraction and modestly dressed.   Even if you began to slightly fall and just her face causes you to lust, would you not get a "spiritual smack" upside the head by her garments?  She's not competing with her sisters either in clothes.  She's not trying to stand out either.

You know, YiM, people are attracted to what they are attracted to.  Mother Whoeverthatis does nothing for me, but that's not to say that someone else wouldn't be turned on even though the clothes indicate she is a nun.  People are turned on by priests at times too, even though they are vested and standing at the altar.  These are mostly women, but I suppose there are some men among them as well.  Why do the nun and the priest get a pass because of their religious clothes, but not the girls lighting candles?   

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Next:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yNjywnTGNkY/TxErvMqM4UI/AAAAAAAAA7E/Ig6mn---UBs/s1600/black+veil+tagged.jpg)
Is a black lace veil that matches an outfit and worn this way being used to "enhance" her beauty?  Note the "bling" on the veil, and that it matches the lace on the low cut bust area.  Would this be distracting for you men?  Women do you see this as a submission to God and for modesty, or to give an accessory to an outfit?  (Not judging to young lady, I respect she even covers)

Oh brother...

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All I can observe from all of this is that if a standard head covering and conservative clothing (similar to nun), that much distraction and competition can occur.

These are some of the arguments I've made in the past on the way Mennonites dress, as it is not for self gain, is not worldly, is not fashionable.  However, most grow to be "family women".
(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

On what basis do you say that these outfits are not "worldly" or "fashionable"?  Compared to what?  Probably among their own, it is fashionable.  Why, for example, aren't they wearing grey? 

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Old order Orthodox are fairly similar.   THERE WERE NOT ANY GOOD PHOTO EXAMPLES.  This is the best I could find.
(http://theinnerkingdom.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/file_2_3_164.jpg)

The way they wear their veils is not for self gain.  The dress seems plain enough.

What is "self gain"?  And by the standards you used above, there's plenty of "bling" here. 

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I do not judge these women.  I believe they are trying.  But I do not think that many women understand how much they can make a brother fall, even if in small ways.

The brothers need to man up.

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I absolutely can't believe the bikini girls next to the bishops though DURING services (probably Theophany).  I'll spare you those photos.  Every man in that church was probably falling, including the clergy.

So you won't show us a photo, but you're comfortable throwing out that bit of gossip anyway. 

Quote
So that's my opinion on the matter.  I believe women should consider that men fall on very little things and also that the scriptures AND in most of the tradition of the EO church is about covering and modesty.

Even in societies where women are pressured one way or the other into "covering" and "modesty" in ways you would approve of, all that happens is that what previously wasn't sexualised becomes sexualised.  Do you really think that making every woman dress like a nun will stop men from falling if they already have a weakness?  Sexualisation of women, sexual assault, rape, all sorts of atrocities are still committed in such societies.  At least here they are more free to fight back. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 23, 2014, 05:22:15 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 05:24:22 PM
Depends if they are of the Sex in the City turn Girls crowd or not, which is to say gay men posing as women. I know many, many women who would find such stuff properly repugnant.

TBH, I've never seen Magic Mike or Girls, so I can't comment on their repugnant-ness in general, but I can guess.

Quote
Others, not so much. But while Queer Eye for the Straight Guy might be a relatively new thing one could argue, the Gay Lens for Wymynz is not.

Playgirl was never for girlz. And no straight man ever dreamt up the madness of "fashion" and "women's" magazines and the illnesses they have wrought in women.

+100. I'm not delusional enough to claim to be immune from these illnesses, but I agree with this all the same.

Quote
This has nothing to do with the typical argument about whether women are "visual", I do think most are able to see. The question of women's vision has always been through which man is she doing the seeing? And is there a possibility of sight for a woman without recourse to a man? That is the interesting question.

Interesting, and depressing.  :-\

Quote
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

That makes two of us.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 23, 2014, 05:41:18 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: vamrat on January 23, 2014, 05:48:43 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 05:54:40 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

My, I hope those women don't stumble with all those men running around in their briefs and bare chests! :)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 23, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

My, I hope those women don't stumble with all those men running around in their briefs and bare chests! :)

Right! A lot of manly men to see. (Though I'm surprised Putin isn't in one of the photos!)  Everyone seems to be enjoying him/herself, unlike the picture of the Mennonite women.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Riddikulus on January 23, 2014, 06:04:44 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 06:06:16 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

Siggy gold!

Sorry, Mor. You've been replaced.  :D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 23, 2014, 06:07:33 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.


Have you tried a burqa?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on January 23, 2014, 06:11:49 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Exactly my feelings. Granted that a short skirt or a decollete catches my eye, in church as well as anywhere else, I have nobody to blame but myself. God made us so that we would be attracted to each other. He also gave us the Rules of Engagement, which are basically about what each individual should and should not do. Blaming others or things are not part of the divine ROE.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Riddikulus on January 23, 2014, 06:12:25 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

 :laugh: Thanks for the laugh, vamrat!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 06:13:12 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! :P

Very true! My husband's eyes...love them! The rest of him could be hidden from view and those eyes would still have me.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: FormerCalvinist on January 23, 2014, 06:13:48 PM
Ridiculous thread. When St. Paul tells women to cover their heads he does not tell them it is because they may cause men to sin. We should all dress modestly, but this is not the basis of head coverings. St. Paul states that it is because of the angels, and the fact that woman was formed from man, for man, and is the glory of man. A woman's head covering is a "symbol of authority."
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 23, 2014, 06:15:22 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! :P

Omar Sharif, in flowing black Bedouin attire, in Lawrence of Arabia has certainly raised many a gal's temperature the world over in the past 50 years.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Tamara on January 23, 2014, 06:15:42 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

 :D :D :D  This little story is so funny....

I have only had one episode in real life at church when I had to tell a sixty-something year old man to back off. But this guy had bothered other women before so it was a problem he had. What I said was something to the effect of if he ever came within my space bubble again, I would verbally embarrass him in front of whoever was around. Worked like a charm. He gives me wide berth now and avoids eye contact too. LOL!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Riddikulus on January 23, 2014, 06:18:49 PM
I think this is as good a time as any to put in my official request for men to start wearing ponchos, to cover the muscular arms and shoulders that lead me into temptation. Thank you.

Ponchos? Not modest enough. Burqas for everyone, male and female. Can't let a good-looking face be a source of temptation now, can we?  :P

But heck, some dudes have wonderful eyes! That can be enough to raise this gal's temperature! :P

Omar Sharif, in flowing black Bedouin attire, in Lawrence of Arabia has certainly raised many a gal's temperature the world over on the past 50 years.

 :laugh: I hear you, sister!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Riddikulus on January 23, 2014, 06:20:13 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

 :D :D :D  This little story is so funny....

I have only had one episode in real life at church when I had to tell a sixty-something year old man to back off. But this guy had bothered other women before so it was a problem he had. What I said was something to the effect of if he ever came within my space bubble again, I would verbally embarrass him in front of whoever was around. Worked like a charm. He gives me wide berth now and avoids eye contact too. LOL!

Mayhap, he got the whole "symbol of authority" confused and saw himself as "the authority". :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 23, 2014, 06:41:56 PM
This topic is reflective of the big turn off factor that makes many modern folks run for the hills. All it takes is one busy body being overly concerned about others and not enough about themselves. As for me, I'm happy to post pictures of American kids actively engrossed in the Orthodox faith, being respectful, devout and engaged with God and His Church. Here are a few:

Antiochian Village 2013 OCF College Conference East
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3735/11649330986_8a755dba3f.jpg)


(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5508/11648922614_4175a8284f.jpg)


Holy Trinity Preschool and Academy, Warren, Ohio
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3679/10725913304_13a846a5fc.jpg)


Diocesan  Youth Fall Encounter, Camp Nazareth, Mercer, PA 2013
(http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7329/10802662884_fc0fb8f35e.jpg)

Youth at Camp Nazareth Liturgy, Summer 2013
(http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7284/9322974237_81d73794ac.jpg)
(http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7292/9316700965_5a7e315069.jpg)


and my favorite, Bishop Gregory at Wrigley Field last summer in Chicago...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5344/9642319179_f3fa8fb412.jpg)

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 06:47:29 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 23, 2014, 06:54:51 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

Was that comment really necessary? Honestly to what purpose?

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 06:57:57 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

I can assure you they aren't at Camp Nazareth. At least not while mine were there. What an accusation to make!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 07:03:25 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

I can assure you they aren't at Camp Nazareth. At least not while mine were there. What an accusation to make!
peace. if it happens, it's not all that bad. i'm not accusing, just reporting what a friend of mine, serbian orthodox, was telling me. i have no reason to question the tales he was humorously telling.  i've never been to a church camp.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 07:07:09 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

I can assure you they aren't at Camp Nazareth. At least not while mine were there. What an accusation to make!
peace. if it happens, it's not all that bad. i'm not accusing, just reporting what a friend of mine, serbian orthodox, was telling me. i have no reason to question the tales he was humorously telling.  i've never been to a church camp.

How is it "not all bad"?  ???

I've been to church camp (baptist ones) and the most trouble we got up to was sneak out to toss rocks at another cabin, then suffered with nasty head colds the following night due to night air.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Cognomen on January 23, 2014, 07:11:09 PM

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.


It strikes me as very strange how thoroughly you analyzed this picture and everyone in it, determining levels of happiness, speculating on quarrels, reading into body language, etc.  I think if someone were to scrutinize your comments, they might pass similar judgment about your level of Christian serenity.

Sorry to frequently pick on you, Maria.  I find a great deal in this thread odd.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 07:12:28 PM
Quote
How is it "not all bad"?

kids have been having sex early for a while now. just statistics. assuming the stuff happens between peers, yes, it's nothing remarkably bad.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 07:14:28 PM
Quote
How is it "not all bad"?

kids have been having sex early for a while now. just statistics. assuming the stuff happens between peers, yes, it's nothing remarkably bad.

So you approve? You'd be fine with your thirteen year old daughter having sex with another random kid from thirteen to sixteen at church camp?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 07:16:30 PM
Quote
How is it "not all bad"?

kids have been having sex early for a while now. just statistics. assuming the stuff happens between peers, yes, it's nothing remarkably bad.

So you approve? You'd be fine with your thirteen year old daughter having sex with another random kid from thirteen to sixteen at church camp?
as i see things, i don't think i'd do my utmost to find out.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 07:17:36 PM
Quote
How is it "not all bad"?

kids have been having sex early for a while now. just statistics. assuming the stuff happens between peers, yes, it's nothing remarkably bad.

So you approve? You'd be fine with your thirteen year old daughter having sex with another random kid from thirteen to sixteen at church camp?
as i see things, i don't think i'd do my utmost to find out.

So you're a pretty hands off parent, eh? Whatever the kid does, the kid can do. Great parenting.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 23, 2014, 07:29:06 PM

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.


It strikes me as very strange how thoroughly you analyzed this picture and everyone in it, determining levels of happiness, speculating on quarrels, reading into body language, etc.  I think if someone were to scrutinize your comments, they might pass similar judgment about your level of Christian serenity.

Sorry to frequently pick on you, Maria.  I find a great deal in this thread odd.  

If you are truly sorry, why post at all?

Body language, hand gestures, and eye, and head movements were part of my linguistic studies leading to my M.A. I found it fascinating that what we write only communicates part of the message.

If a person were to tell me that they were happy, but their eyes were doing  ::) and their head was shaking "no" and they had daggers in their eyes along with an unhappy face  >:(, then I would have to assume that they were in fact NOT very happy but for some reason,  they could not truthfully express the full message perhaps because of peer pressure or whatever.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 23, 2014, 08:20:16 PM
I can sympathize with the women on this thread.  I have been treated as a sexual object my entire life by women and men alike.  I am just so goshdarn sexy that women swoon and men stare on in jealousy.  I am followed day and night by women who want to stroke my muscles and have even been hit on by President Obama (ew!).  One time I merely mentioned that I wanted to go to the gun show and three women (I think one might have been a ladyboy...he/she/it had that look about him/her/it) ran up and tore my shirt off.  One of them was an octogenarian and died of a heart attack.  The paramedics tried to revive her but then saw my glistening abs and couldn't help but oggle them.  How would you like that on your conscience?  Not only did I cause my brothers, sisters, and that lady boy to stumble, but it even ended up costing one of them their life?  One time I was at the club dancing to some wikked dubstep and a couple who had just gotten married promptly filed for divorce so they could both pursue my affections.  I have tried dressing more modestly but my muscles and gender-designating features are so large they tear through normal fabric so I have had to switch over to wearing full chain mail at church just to get the women folk not to notice me...but now they all ask if I will be their knight in shining armour?

Seriously, what am I to do?  I really wish these people would overcome their temptations and just let me live my life.

Siggy gold!

Sorry, Mor. You've been replaced.  :D

No worries.  I read vamrat's post and wanted to confess publicly that I was attracted back to OCNet from my years' long absence by the scent of his pheromones wafting through the internet.  Truly, who can resist?   
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 08:34:41 PM
No worries.  I read vamrat's post and wanted to confess publicly that I was attracted back to OCNet from my years' long absence by the scent of his pheromones wafting through the internet.  Truly, who can resist?   

None, evidently. :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:14:36 PM
The American diet has managed to rid me of my weakness.

Anyway, I just gotta say how Islamic of you YiM, placing the moral agency of men on the bodies of women.

Really, your libido ain't that big of a deal.

According to Christ it is. 

It's not a mandate that I'm suggesting, it would be a courtesy for sisters of the church for their brothers.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:16:26 PM
I'm sorry, but the pictures here are ridiculous to me. As long as the girl doesn't have really tight clothing or too much skin showing, I'm probably not going to notice. Teenage boys will find a way to be attracted to some bizzare things either way, and I don't think that the women need to be disrespected by scrutinizing every thread of every outfit.

To me this thread makes you come off as having an unhealthy obsession with the women around you.

Mor covered this so to speak before and I added to it, but really the solution to pathological male libidinal issues isn't the removal of women and covering them as much as possible when they are around, but rather in the inclusion of women as much as possible in all aspects of life and allowing them to enjoy whatever modesty they wish.

Otherwise, men go a bit crazy, see boys' locker rooms, construction sites, various religious groups, the 50s, etc.

Then why was this the tradition of the church for so long, and why are almost all women in icons, including the Theotokos shown this way?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:19:09 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

I am not blaming them.  I think everybody does not understand what I am saying.

It is not something that I believe should be enforced, but something that a sister should voluntarily do for her brother's spiritual struggles.  There are many men who "struggle".

I am not talking about major struggles, but little things that cause the mind to wander.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:23:36 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?

If my sister was 20-30 and would generally be found attractive, you are right, I would not be attracted to her.

If there was an attractive 20-30 year old nearby, I do have to will not to glance.

Guys please understand, I'm not talking about salivating and drooling on the floor.  I'm talking about glances, observances, and small split second thoughts of where the mind can wander.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:25:00 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

Welcome to being a man. TBF to YIM and a point Shiny was trying to make is how sick most guys are really here and pretty much everywhere.

Being a man who isn't sick in this manner, I have to listen to such stuff a lot, especially when I was younger and didn't know how to steer out of such talk. I don't care for girl talk much, whether it be from straight guys, gay guys, or women. For better and worse I had childhood that predisposed me to protecting the intimacy of others, so locker room talk or its inverse, the moralizing talk about women, has never sat well with me.

Then I'm glad you don't struggle with it.  But your brothers in Christ may.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 23, 2014, 09:28:08 PM
Guys please understand, I'm not talking about salivating and drooling on the floor.  I'm talking about glances, observances, and small split second thoughts of where the mind can wander.

OK, but where do you get the idea that this is what Christ is targeting in his preaching?  "Split second thoughts" where the mind "can wander" but doesn't have to? 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 23, 2014, 09:29:04 PM
Shiny has nothing on you.

Vile.

I really agree. The whole OP is pretty much asking you to judge these girls' lust-inducement factor and whether or not they are too sexual, and it was pretty uncomfortable to read.

It is also insulting to men.

What Yesh has posted does nothing to defend the integrity of the male sex. It only reinforces the idea that males are beholden to what their eyes see, and to the passions that this sight may arouse; therefore, the answer, according to this idea, is that women cover themselves to reduce or eliminate being a temptation to men. Yet, does the covering of the female form truly prevent such temptation? Innumerable cultures, western and eastern, ancient and modern, insisted on modest dress for women. Yet, men have continued to lust after women, and even commit sexual assaults and rape on them, even in cultures where the burkha and niqab is mandatory.

Yesh's argument fails in another regard as well: Men and boys are entirely capable of interacting with, and living with, and working with, women and girls, with no shred of sexual distraction. Fathers, brothers and male relatives see their familial females as sexually neutral: anything else has, since time immemorial, been regarded as a monstrous aberration (apart from, perhaps, Egyptian Pharaonic royalty). Therefore, if males are capable, not out of primeval biological instinct (which demeans the male sex as slaves to their eyes and hormones), but out of rational action, of not regarding their female family as sexually distracting, what's to stop them from doing so with other females to whom they are not related?

If my sister was 20-30 and would generally be found attractive, you are right, I would not be attracted to her.

If there was an attractive 20-30 year old nearby, I do have to will not to glance.

Guys please understand, I'm not talking about salivating and drooling on the floor.  I'm talking about glances, observances, and small split second thoughts of where the mind can wander.

We are told to guard all our senses. Driving around town with large billboard containing Las Vegas models with almost nothing on leaves little to the imagination. With all the accidents that Los Angeles has, I wonder if anyone has done a study to see if there is a correlation between those billboards and all the horrific accidents.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:29:41 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.

(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

Looks to me like they were singing and not posing.  Many of the EO women did not seem too happy either.  Also many Mennonites consider photography a graven image.

Here's youthful mennonites that allow photography.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGhZ6HIRWo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGhZ6HIRWo)

Their smiles seem very genuine.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 23, 2014, 09:31:27 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.

(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

Looks to me like they were singing and not posing.  Many of the EO women did not seem too happy either.  Also many Mennonites consider photography a graven image.

Here's youthful mennonites that allow photography.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGhZ6HIRWo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGhZ6HIRWo)

Their smiles seem very genuine.

Singing with mouths closed?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 09:34:22 PM
If my sister was 20-30 and would generally be found attractive, you are right, I would not be attracted to her.

If there was an attractive 20-30 year old nearby, I do have to will not to glance.

Guys please understand, I'm not talking about salivating and drooling on the floor.  I'm talking about glances, observances, and small split second thoughts of where the mind can wander.

Your OP had a lot of nit-picking for only talking about glances, observances, and small split-second thoughts. I'll be honest, I thought all of the pictures were pictures of very modest women.

Edited to fix my crazy sentence that was needlessly repetitive.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 09:39:17 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Exactly my feelings. Granted that a short skirt or a decollete catches my eye, in church as well as anywhere else, I have nobody to blame but myself. God made us so that we would be attracted to each other. He also gave us the Rules of Engagement, which are basically about what each individual should and should not do. Blaming others or things are not part of the divine ROE.

Carl, at least you admit to something, unlike several others who I guess think they belong on the iconostasis.

You are right, I am not blaming others either, as stated in my OP.   It's my weakness, as stated in the subject.  What I am speaking of is the sisters who don't want to cause others to fall.  There are some more courteous than others.  I was giving examples of the small ways women can cause men to fall.  We are all weak in different ways.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 23, 2014, 09:42:22 PM
We are all weak in different ways.

Is one of yours "rash judgement"? 

...unlike several others who I guess think they belong on the iconostasis.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: katherine 2001 on January 23, 2014, 09:50:16 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

How come it is okay for the men at the Theophany service to be wearing speedos that leave very little to the imagination and nothing gets said about how tempting that is to women?  How are men getting away with dressing like that?  Jump into the water clothed guys, or wear swimming trunks that are a lot looser and leave something to the imagination!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 09:56:23 PM
Quote
How is it "not all bad"?

kids have been having sex early for a while now. just statistics. assuming the stuff happens between peers, yes, it's nothing remarkably bad.

So you approve? You'd be fine with your thirteen year old daughter having sex with another random kid from thirteen to sixteen at church camp?

No but I certainly wouldn't make it such a big deal as some make it.

The fact that so many fathers obsess solely over their daughters' virginity is sickening. You reduce her value as an individual down to an unbroken layer of skin. I'd be more concerned that my daughter is intelligent, getting an education, knows her values, and is doing something productive and good. THIS is what makes a good, valuable daughter in my eyes; not the unbrokenness of her hymen. You reduce her sole value down to what a man will think of her rather than what she thinks of herself.

Is it bad that kids are having sex at thirteen? Yeah. Most thirteen year olds are idiots and shouldn't be having sex (same goes for most adults tbh). But, it's not the worst thing that they could be doing and I wouldn't revolve my entire fatherhood around preserving their virginity. If my mom never had sex at fifteen she'd never have had me.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 23, 2014, 10:01:57 PM
The fact that so many fathers obsess solely over their daughters' virginity is sickening. You reduce her value as an individual down to an unbroken layer of skin. I'd be more concerned that my daughter is intelligent, getting an education, knows her values, and is doing something productive and good. THIS is what makes a good, valuable daughter in my eyes; not the unbrokenness of her hymen. You reduce her sole value down to what a man will think of her rather than what she thinks of herself.

I suppose those fathers couldn't possibly be worrying about their daughters' values and whether or not they are living up to them.  They are clearly worried about anatomy. 

Quote
Is it bad that kids are having sex at thirteen? Yeah. Most thirteen year olds are idiots and shouldn't be having sex (same goes for most adults tbh). But, it's not the worst thing that they could be doing and I wouldn't revolve my entire fatherhood around preserving their virginity. If my mom never had sex at fifteen she'd never have had me.

You would've been better off omitting this.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:02:39 PM
Men and women have sexual drives outside of the opposite sex. Just ask people that have been in prison  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:02:44 PM
How come it is okay for the men at the Theophany service to be wearing speedos that leave very little to the imagination and nothing gets said about how tempting that is to women?  How are men getting away with dressing like that?  Jump into the water clothed guys, or wear swimming trunks that are a lot looser and leave something to the imagination!

Well, to be fair, I don't think that most women would want to see a bunch of overweight, 40-50 something year old men in speedos, hairy chests and all. One may consider it a form of penance  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 23, 2014, 10:04:16 PM
Even with all of the discussions of headcovering and how hot and bothered a woman's hair can make some people, I never guessed I'd see a post here analyzing how much neck is too much neck.

I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

LOL, I'm pretty sure those pictures are 10 times the equivalent of taking a cold shower. If anyone was thinking of their genitals there, it was only about how they were so cold they might fall off.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 10:05:58 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

To add, and to Mor's request:    Also a WARNING as it is swim wear type stuff in the links (all EO)
http://www.goggleblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/epiphany.jpg (http://www.goggleblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/epiphany.jpg)
http://cdn4.pix.avaxnews.com/avaxnews/82/b1/0000b182_medium.jpeg (http://cdn4.pix.avaxnews.com/avaxnews/82/b1/0000b182_medium.jpeg)
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/19/article-2088794-0F86613900000578-386_470x423.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/19/article-2088794-0F86613900000578-386_470x423.jpg)
http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PA-18724922.jpg (http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/PA-18724922.jpg)
http://mynorthwest.com/emedia/apimage/76bc7253-f922-43b8-8b75-8c9597e86238.jpg (http://mynorthwest.com/emedia/apimage/76bc7253-f922-43b8-8b75-8c9597e86238.jpg)

Much more graphic, WARNING
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/files/2010/01/dip-8.jpg (http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/files/2010/01/dip-8.jpg)

The oddest part is, they are swimming in ICE WATER.  What does it matter if they wear clothes rather than skimpies?  Think about it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:06:26 PM
The fact that so many fathers obsess solely over their daughters' virginity is sickening. You reduce her value as an individual down to an unbroken layer of skin. I'd be more concerned that my daughter is intelligent, getting an education, knows her values, and is doing something productive and good. THIS is what makes a good, valuable daughter in my eyes; not the unbrokenness of her hymen. You reduce her sole value down to what a man will think of her rather than what she thinks of herself.

I suppose those fathers couldn't possibly be worrying about their daughters' values and whether or not they are living up to them.  They are clearly worried about anatomy. 

Or perhaps the emotional fall-out from making such a choice at too young an age, or when the relationship inevitably goes awry and he doesn't want to see her hurt, or any other out of the plethora of reasons a father might not want his teenage daughter to be sexually active.

Some fathers do obsess over their daughters' virginity. I recall a documentary I watched semi-recently that was pretty creepy about it, but "so many"? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 10:08:21 PM
I just know, I don't want to see through YiM's eyes.

I'm with you.

Okay, here are some pictures of the Theophany complete with fat biki clad women and good looking ones too. It is not X-rated, but close to it, so beware. And all this happens with clergy present? Those polar bears!

http://russkij-sever.livejournal.com/1808038.html


p.s. I would certainly not participate in jumping into that ice hole, especially with a biki.

How come it is okay for the men at the Theophany service to be wearing speedos that leave very little to the imagination and nothing gets said about how tempting that is to women?  How are men getting away with dressing like that?  Jump into the water clothed guys, or wear swimming trunks that are a lot looser and leave something to the imagination!


I don't think it is!

But to be honest, go on any site and look at men asking "what do women find attractive in a man" the answer "depends on personality".  Just about everything deals with a personality THEN to looks....

Men, looks.  Period.... Later personality.

But anyway, not my point.  The links above are NOT appropriate for a Christians setting.  The sisters can cause men to commit adultery in their heart.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:08:52 PM
Even with all of the discussions of headcovering and how hot and bothered a woman's hair can make some people, I never guessed I'd see a post here analyzing how much neck is too much neck.

The neck thing threw me too, but I had no idea a woman's hair was such a big deal to guys.  :D Or some of them.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Xenia on January 23, 2014, 10:08:58 PM
What bothers me about this whole thread is that we are  speculating as to their ability to induce lustful thoughts girls who are somebody's daughters, that is, real people, who do not deserve to be the topic of this kind of conversation.  They probably never asked to have their photos put on the Internet and they certainly didn't ask to have their photos submitted to us for our approval of their apparel.  

Sometimes we get so used to the Internet that we lose all sense of appropriateness.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:10:41 PM
What bothers me about this whole thread is that we are  speculating as to their ability to induce lustful thoughts girls who are somebody's daughters, that is, real people, who do not deserve to be the topic of this kind of conversation.  They probably never asked to have their photos put on the Internet and they certainly didn't ask to have their photos submitted to us for our approval of their apparel.  

Sometimes we get so used to the Internet that we lose all sense of appropriateness.

I agree! That's what I was trying to say earlier when I said it was uncomfortable to read, but you said it much better.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:12:54 PM
How popular is internet dating? How many people "fall in love" with someone online and lust after that person? It doesn't take the physical presence of an attractive person to incite desire.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 23, 2014, 10:13:41 PM
Even with all of the discussions of headcovering and how hot and bothered a woman's hair can make some people, I never guessed I'd see a post here analyzing how much neck is too much neck.

The neck thing threw me too, but I had no idea a woman's hair was such a big deal to guys.  :D Or some of them.
Hah, different strokes for different folks.

As a living adult man, nothing in this thread has stirred me beyond amusement.

There's ridiculous, and then there's ridiculous. This is clearly the second.

What bothers me about this whole thread is that we are  speculating as to their ability to induce lustful thoughts girls who are somebody's daughters, that is, real people, who do not deserve to be the topic of this kind of conversation.  They probably never asked to have their photos put on the Internet and they certainly didn't ask to have their photos submitted to us for our approval of their apparel.  

Sometimes we get so used to the Internet that we lose all sense of appropriateness.

I agree! That's what I was trying to say earlier when I said it was uncomfortable to read, but you said it much better.
Pharisees gotta pharisee.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 23, 2014, 10:15:48 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

Was that comment really necessary? Honestly to what purpose?

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?

You beat me to it.  >:(

Really, augustin's irreverent jaded cynic shtick does wear thin after a while.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 10:16:04 PM
What I got from this thread is that mennonite men are  particularly sex crazed and their sisters (yuck) have to take extraordinary precautions as not to incite their uncontrollable lust.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:20:33 PM
Or perhaps the emotional fall-out from making such a choice at too young an age

There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything. Why do you think most of the world was polygamous prior to Christianity?

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...or when the relationship inevitably goes awry and he doesn't want to see her hurt

She would be hurt regardless of whether or not she had sex

Quote
...or any other out of the plethora of reasons a father might not want his teenage daughter to be sexually active.

Like what men think of her?

Quote
Some fathers do obsess over their daughters' virginity. I recall a documentary I watched semi-recently that was pretty creepy about it, but "so many"? I don't think so.

My grandmother told me a story about a friend she had who got pregnant at 14. Her parents made her strip nude and show her where she was touched and "penetrated." Her father also used to inspect her undergarments for semen and/or blood.

Some people take this way too seriously.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 10:22:49 PM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

Was that comment really necessary? Honestly to what purpose?

Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?

You beat me to it.  >:(

Really, the irreverent jaded cynic shtick does wear thin after a while.
u r right lbk. i was actually wondering as to more creative ways of offending a larger number of people. i think i'll post pictures of me climbing up iconostases in order to venerate "old man" icons of the Trinity.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:23:42 PM
Really, the irreverent jaded cynic shtick does wear thin after a while.
u r right lbk. i was actually wondering as to more creative ways of offending a larger number of people. i think i'll post pictures of me climbing up iconostases in order to venerate "old man" icons of the Trinity.

POTM material right here folks.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 23, 2014, 10:24:00 PM
There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything.
Aren't you a virgin?

And while I'll pass the chance for a glib comment about eating, how the heck are you drinking coffee?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:27:20 PM
"There is nothing emotional about sex."

You forgot the rest of your statement:

I've watched my dog have sex in the yard for years, he never calls those b!@#$% back afterward.

(Although the word in context is not a curse word, I figured that I better not use the real term lest I end up with a green dot.)

For your reference: sex≠masturbation
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 10:27:59 PM
LOL! Take it from someone that has been in a Mennonite community EXACTLY like the ones you posted a picture of (EPMC...it's a particular denomination of Mennonites...one I am VERY familiar with and not looked highly upon, even by other Mennonites). They LOVE fashion! They compete amoungst themselves with their own particular kind of fashion. They rip each other apart over who has too many gathers in their sleeves or kapps and who has few to none. The great debate is skirt length...should it be mid calf or so many inches from the floor? Calf length is high for a tall woman and so many inches from the floor is high for a short woman. Oh, don't forget the hussy that wears a print that is bigger than a quarter and please degrade the person that wears no print as being legalistic.

Sorry, but you are picking apart all the other pictures as much as those Mennonite women pick each other apart.

And I find a major problem with blaming girls for your own failings. You can find someone attractive without stumbling. Any stumbling is your problem. Should Men and Women both dress modestly? Sure. Should either blame the other for any personal stumblings over a person's attire? No. Otherwise, one should lock oneself up.

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.

(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

Looks to me like they were singing and not posing.  Many of the EO women did not seem too happy either.  Also many Mennonites consider photography a graven image.

Here's youthful mennonites that allow photography.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGhZ6HIRWo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FGhZ6HIRWo)

Their smiles seem very genuine.

Charity is a not a Mennonite group. They are an anabaptist offshoot...and I'll be so bold as to call them a cult. Trust me, Charity members "look happy". It's because if the wife isn't "glowing" then she's in spiritual danger and might be going to hell unless she confesses whatever her secret sin is. Let me tell you just how many women within Charity and EPMC use anti-depressants to keep them "in form" (looking happy when they aren't or to "help them conform"...exact words, mind you). Charity is a nasty, nasty group that I do not encourage anyone to ever go near. I know ONE person in it that I could call somewhat real. Get invited to an event and not be part of their group, expect the cold shoulder. Their biggest things are sheep stealing from other anabaptist groups and adopting children of other ethnicities so they can save the "heathen", but never really accept them within their communities wholly as adults (and one that I know is a different ethnicity works hard to stay out of the sun so her skin stays as light as possible, so she'll be more acceptable).

Amish disagree with photos. Mennonites do not...even old order Jo Wengers are fine with photos. They don't indulge in them very much, but they aren't against them per se either.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:33:55 PM
Or perhaps the emotional fall-out from making such a choice at too young an age

There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything. Why do you think most of the world was polygamous prior to Christianity?

You have no idea what you would be like after sex, never having had it. Why do you think polygamous = no emotion? What a non sequitur.

Quote
Quote
...or when the relationship inevitably goes awry and he doesn't want to see her hurt

She would be hurt regardless of whether or not she had sex

Probably. More-so if she did.

Quote
Quote
...or any other out of the plethora of reasons a father might not want his teenage daughter to be sexually active.

Like what men think of her?


I have no idea what you're driving at here. You'll have to elaborate. Or don't. Either is fine.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:35:31 PM
There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything.
Aren't you a virgin?

Yeah, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that I wouldn't feel any emotion at all if I had sex with a woman--unless I already loved her, which is something I struggle to do given that I have a crazy mother and all.

Quote
And while I'll pass the chance for a glib comment about eating, how the heck are you drinking coffee?

In a large mug, french pressed, with a sugar cube and powdered creamer, browsing the forums of oc.net from my grandmother's garage.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:36:54 PM
For your reference: sex≠masturbation

For your information, I haven't punched the clown in 95 days and counting, thanks to this darn religion stuff not letting me enjoy my body and all.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 10:39:47 PM
Quote
For your reference: sex≠masturbation
the difference isn't all that radical either. a matter of number of hands. sometimes.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:40:13 PM
My point is that masturbation has no emotional effect (well, outside of possibly guilt I guess). Sex, has an emotional component. You can theorize that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it is true.

My brother likes to play flight sims. He tried to go about learning to drive like he did flight sims. In theory, driving/flying in a video game can be very similar. In practice they aren't even close to the same. Teaching my brother to drive was frustrating precisely because he refused to think that sim driving and actual driving are different.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 23, 2014, 10:40:57 PM
It's not an obsession to raise your child with values and morals. It's not obsession to try and keep up with what is going on with your child, whether it be sexual activity or drug use or simply who they are hanging around. Yes, a parent has a right to know those things. In fact, according to various laws, parents are EXPECTED to know these things. Yes, the distasteful descriptions you gave of CERTAIN parents is obsessive and signals other issues. However, to presume that any parent that is concerned about their child or is actually involved in their child's life as a proactive parent is on the same level as such control-freaks is so far out there that I have to wonder what the heck is wrong with you to think that a parent has to be totally hands off and leave a thirteen year old's sexuality completely to themselves with no discussion or guidance. Did I say anything about worrying over a certain part of their anatomy? No. I stated that a parent should know what is going on with their child. No thirteen year old should be having sex. If they are then the parent NEEDS to know about it. If the parent doesn't want to know about it or doesn't care about it, then a) no wonder the thirteen year old might be having sex and b) what the heck is wrong with that parent?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:41:04 PM
You have no idea what you would be like after sex, never having had it. Why do you think polygamous = no emotion? What a non sequitur.

You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time. Same goes for most extra-marital flings, polygamous societies, and all casual sexual encounters today.

Quote
Probably. More-so if she did.

True; you're right there.

Quote
I have no idea what you're driving at here. You'll have to elaborate. Or don't. Either is fine.

The point I'm driving is that I think this fatherly obsession over their daughters' virginity is a misogynistic convention that reduces her self-worth down to that of what men will think of her, as men--especially in religious circles--seem to have this fetish for virgins. I say up with these conventions. I don't want my daughter's self worth to be based off what men think of her.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 23, 2014, 10:42:05 PM
Quote
And while I'll pass the chance for a glib comment about eating, how the heck are you drinking coffee?

In a large mug, french pressed, with a sugar cube and powdered creamer, browsing the forums of oc.net from my grandmother's garage.
That is just like sex.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:42:15 PM
Part of the problem with pornography and masturbation is it alters the way you approach sex. Masturbation/porn aren't akin to sex. Sex outside of marriage isn't the same as sex within marriage either in my experience.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:44:52 PM
Powdered creamer? That is a great way to destroy a good cup of coffee. Although if you are drinking pond scum like Gevalia, Starbucks, or Folgers, I guess you need something to mask the horrible taste. But powdered creamer? Ew!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:45:03 PM
My point is that masturbation has no emotional effect (well, outside of possibly guilt I guess). Sex, has an emotional component. You can theorize that it doesn't, but that doesn't mean it is true.

How do you explain the casual sex that most of the West indulges in? No emotion there. I imagine the same attitude was prevalent in polygamous societies where people only cared about physical beauty and/or wealth and status. The notion of "soul-mates" and "love" and "emotional sex" is a rather new invention.

I'm 99% that I wouldn't feel any emotion. However, I concede that there is a tiny, tiiiny 0.1% chance that it might just strike some emotional cord inside of me and I'd break down in tears, but I highly doubt it.

Quote
My brother likes to play flight sims. He tried to go about learning to drive like he did flight sims. In theory, driving/flying in a video game can be very similar. In practice they aren't even close to the same. Teaching my brother to drive was frustrating precisely because he refused to think that sim driving and actual driving are different.

The former was probably better than the real thing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 23, 2014, 10:46:14 PM
. Sex outside of marriage isn't the same as sex within marriage either in my experience.
i've only experience the outside of marriage variety. and  flings were more intense than ltr.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:46:37 PM
Part of the problem with pornography and masturbation is it alters the way you approach sex. Masturbation/porn aren't akin to sex.

Only I haven't been doing those things in upwards of 90 days so I'm not seeing your point.

Quote
Sex outside of marriage isn't the same as sex within marriage either in my experience.

It's still sex though so what's the point here? I'm sensing that the No True Scotsman is peeking its eery head.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 23, 2014, 10:47:02 PM
What bothers me about this whole thread is that we are  speculating as to their ability to induce lustful thoughts girls who are somebody's daughters, that is, real people, who do not deserve to be the topic of this kind of conversation.  They probably never asked to have their photos put on the Internet and they certainly didn't ask to have their photos submitted to us for our approval of their apparel.  

Sometimes we get so used to the Internet that we lose all sense of appropriateness.

I agree! That's what I was trying to say earlier when I said it was uncomfortable to read, but you said it much better.

First you guys are Orthodox, that means you are in communion with these people.  You should be concerned about what your brothers and sisters are up to.

Secondly, I don't see the point of the internet photo thing.  If they were willing to be like that in front of their church, it probably doesn't matter.

For the sake of rules, I didn't post the photo of the lady at the epiphany who wore a white shirt with nothing underneath.  Full reveal of everything, right there in front of her church.

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.  In fact, this thread is a spin off of another thread that holds scrutiny of tradition.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 23, 2014, 10:47:18 PM
But powdered creamer? Ew!

It's much better than that refrigerated half-n-half stuff that only makes the coffee cold.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:49:44 PM
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

Quote
Same goes for most extra-marital flings, polygamous societies, and all casual sexual encounters today.

I'd venture to guess that most extra-marital flings are very emotional, first of all. And I don't think you can classify a polygamous marriage with a casual sexual encounter. But even there, sex complicates things. What starts out as casual can quickly become emotional.

Frankly: you're wrong that sex isn't emotional. You don't know that you're wrong yet, but you will one day.


Quote
The point I'm driving is that I think this fatherly obsession over their daughters' virginity is a misogynistic convention that reduces her self-worth down to that of what men will think of her, as men--especially in religious circles--seem to have this fetish for virgins. I say up with these conventions. I don't want my daughter's self worth to be based off what men think of her.

As well you shouldn't. I think it is possible that it's misogynistic in some cases, as I said. I think in most cases, it has nothing to do with misogyny or fear of how men will perceive her, but actually comes from *gasp!* caring about his daughter.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 23, 2014, 10:50:21 PM
I think I'm going to add a new variant of Orthodox Godwin's law, specific to OC.net:

The longer a discussion about "modesty" continues on OC.net, the closer the probability masturbation will come up approaches 1.


We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.
We should care about our own sins and not give two thoughts to what some parish in Russia is doing.

You had to go looking for that. Which is the worse offense, the one who doesn't meet a certain modicum of modesty, or the one who goes out of their way to point it out for no sake other than to judge?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:51:07 PM
Although if you are drinking pond scum like Gevalia, Starbucks, or Folgers, I guess you need something to mask the horrible taste. But powdered creamer? Ew!

Oh Quinault... and I had always liked you...  :(

 ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 23, 2014, 10:53:36 PM
First you guys are Orthodox, that means you are in communion with these people.

I am not Orthodox, actually.

Quote
You should be concerned about what your brothers and sisters are up to.

Secondly, I don't see the point of the internet photo thing.  If they were willing to be like that in front of their church, it probably doesn't matter.

How do you figure? Willing to be seen a certain way in front of a group of people you know does not translate into willing to be judged and scrutinized by over-zealous internet strangers.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:54:00 PM
The difference is commitment and vulnerability.

Sex is messy, loud, and sometimes downright embarrassing and funny. Porn makes everyone look perfect at all times. The camera angle is just right, the lighting is perfect, no hair out of place. The reality is that no one looks that good while actually ENJOYING themselves having sex.

You can't have vulnerability and trust without commitment. You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself. But real pleasure is in give and receiving pleasure, not just taking it. Hooking up is about instant gratification, scratching an itch. It causes relief like scratching poison ivy. It doesn't deal with the source of the issue. Marriage deals with the source of the issue. Sex and foreplay aren't in the moments leading up to, and during intercourse. Sex and foreplay are LIFE. Daily life is what makes sex more or less enjoyable. When couples "lose the spark" in their sex lives, it is a symptom of a systemic problem in the marriage, not the cause of the problem in the marriage.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 23, 2014, 10:55:11 PM
But powdered creamer? Ew!

It's much better than that refrigerated half-n-half stuff that only makes the coffee cold.

Hence why you don't add cold cream to coffee ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Cognomen on January 24, 2014, 07:43:06 AM

Did you notice the very unhappy, not too sober, expressions on many of Mennonite women in that picture?
What was going on? Have they just finished quarreling? The woman standing in the front (far right side) wearing the very light print dress in turquoise looks like she is being pushed as she is preventing the woman behind her from being seen. Notice the hand touching her on her left arm.


It strikes me as very strange how thoroughly you analyzed this picture and everyone in it, determining levels of happiness, speculating on quarrels, reading into body language, etc.  I think if someone were to scrutinize your comments, they might pass similar judgment about your level of Christian serenity.

Sorry to frequently pick on you, Maria.  I find a great deal in this thread odd.  

If you are truly sorry, why post at all?

It's nothing personal.  Your posts tend to elicit responses from me though.

Quote

Body language, hand gestures, and eye, and head movements were part of my linguistic studies leading to my M.A. I found it fascinating that what we write only communicates part of the message.

If a person were to tell me that they were happy, but their eyes were doing  ::) and their head was shaking "no" and they had daggers in their eyes along with an unhappy face  >:(, then I would have to assume that they were in fact NOT very happy but for some reason,  they could not truthfully express the full message perhaps because of peer pressure or whatever.

I hate to imagine how my facial and body language reflects on Orthodox Christianity.  Good thing I keep my snarling mug off of the world wide internet. 

Elder Hieromonk Paisius (Moldova) looked pretty miserable as well, so maybe I'm destined for greatness.

(http://www.nistea.com/paisie_mic.gif)



On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: hecma925 on January 24, 2014, 08:25:51 AM
The oddest part is, they are swimming in ICE WATER.  What does it matter if they wear clothes rather than skimpies?  Think about it.

Oddest part is, although some of these ladies are lovely, I didn't get tempted.  I was more tempted by your all caps WARNINGS.

Also, it's easier to get out of the water when you don't have a big coat on, as well as easier to get warmed up afterwards.  I take it you've never fallen fully-clothed in ice water.  Think about it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Hawkeye on January 24, 2014, 08:49:09 AM
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

A man doesn't build temples to false gods for women he doesn't care about.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Iconodule on January 24, 2014, 08:57:40 AM
Eh NVM
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: hecma925 on January 24, 2014, 08:58:45 AM
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

A man doesn't build temples to false gods for women he doesn't care about.

Still happens today.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 24, 2014, 11:25:36 AM
i've never been to a church camp.

I feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 24, 2014, 11:25:36 AM
Kids are having sex at church camps. At least that's what a Serbian friend was saying they were doing.

Yeah. I personally know a few of offsprings.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 24, 2014, 11:33:55 AM
The one in teal scarf is hot.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 24, 2014, 11:33:55 AM
It's a pagan custom. But I wouldn't mind participating in Epiphany with some pretty ladies in bikinis.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 24, 2014, 01:03:11 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:33:41 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?

You go, girl. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 24, 2014, 01:37:20 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:40:47 PM
The oddest part is, they are swimming in ICE WATER.  What does it matter if they wear clothes rather than skimpies?  Think about it.

Well, I don't swim, I don't know how.  But I imagine that it's much easier to maneuver in ice cold water without layers of clothing than it is while dressed as a Mennonite woman (just washing my hands in cold water stiffens them up, I can't imagine trying to swim in it).  You would've made a better argument if you focused on how priests wearing vestments and using gold crosses while blessing water on Epiphany so that people can take a dip is a post-Constantine ritualistic practice not found in the NT or in the first two Christian centuries.  And considering how thoroughly ludicrous I think that argument is, you should have some idea of what I think of the idea above.  Think about it.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:42:27 PM
But to be honest, go on any site and look at men asking "what do women find attractive in a man" the answer "depends on personality".  Just about everything deals with a personality THEN to looks....

Men, looks.  Period.... Later personality.

LOL. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:47:56 PM
There's nothing emotional about sex. It's no different than eating or drinking coffee. I could have sex with ten women and I wouldn't feel anything.
Aren't you a virgin?

Yeah, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that I wouldn't feel any emotion at all if I had sex with a woman--unless I already loved her, which is something I struggle to do given that I have a crazy mother and all.

Again, you'd be better off not making comments like this.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:51:25 PM
You think that King Solomon cared about the emotions and feelings he had for his 700 something wives? No. He was simply looking for a fun time.

I have no idea what he thought about them, but I think you'd be wrong if you think he felt nothing for any of them.

Quote
Same goes for most extra-marital flings, polygamous societies, and all casual sexual encounters today.

I'd venture to guess that most extra-marital flings are very emotional, first of all. And I don't think you can classify a polygamous marriage with a casual sexual encounter. But even there, sex complicates things. What starts out as casual can quickly become emotional.

Frankly: you're wrong that sex isn't emotional. You don't know that you're wrong yet, but you will one day.


Quote
The point I'm driving is that I think this fatherly obsession over their daughters' virginity is a misogynistic convention that reduces her self-worth down to that of what men will think of her, as men--especially in religious circles--seem to have this fetish for virgins. I say up with these conventions. I don't want my daughter's self worth to be based off what men think of her.

As well you shouldn't. I think it is possible that it's misogynistic in some cases, as I said. I think in most cases, it has nothing to do with misogyny or fear of how men will perceive her, but actually comes from *gasp!* caring about his daughter.

You win. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:52:09 PM

We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.
We should care about our own sins and not give two thoughts to what some parish in Russia is doing.

You had to go looking for that. Which is the worse offense, the one who doesn't meet a certain modicum of modesty, or the one who goes out of their way to point it out for no sake other than to judge?

You also win. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 01:54:36 PM
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 24, 2014, 01:58:22 PM
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: minasoliman on January 24, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 02:26:43 PM
I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

It really is. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 24, 2014, 02:29:14 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

Actually, following in the example of one of my teachers, I have more sympathy for the Lord:

Quote
Genesis 6

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the ground, man and beast and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Romaios on January 24, 2014, 02:40:45 PM
Elder Hieromonk Paisius (Moldova) looked pretty miserable as well, so maybe I'm destined for greatness.

(http://www.nistea.com/paisie_mic.gif)

That's become his "canonical" pose. He was a bit short-sighted IIRC - there is a funny picture of him wearing glasses, but I can't find it anywhere online.

Anyways, those who knew him personally say he was as gentle a spiritual father as they come. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Cognomen on January 24, 2014, 03:47:50 PM
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 24, 2014, 06:50:46 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Charles Martel on January 24, 2014, 07:22:26 PM
For your reference: sex≠masturbation

For your information, I haven't punched the clown in 95 days and counting, thanks to this darn religion stuff not letting me enjoy my body and all.
LOL! It was worth readin through 3 pages of  this nonsense just to hear you say that James.

Well said. ;D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 24, 2014, 08:31:36 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 24, 2014, 08:48:44 PM
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   

Thank you for your honesty.  I don't believe men to be drooling and bumbling who "can't help it".   I do believe we can actively try to keep our minds focused.   There are men here that won't and apparently don't ever have their minds wander at all....

I guess I'm just not like that.  I most likely would have noticed the flesh of a buttock too.... But I may be worse, as I may notice tight shirts, tight dresses, and low cut shirts too.  Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

The thing I'm disagreeing with several people here about is when they blame the "man" for all of it.   Women *DO* sometimes try to bring attention to themselves in this manner.  We all know this.  In the scriptures it is said that people can cause others to sin.  I absolutely believe this.   

So I'm delving deep into the subject and taking the head covering issue further (which is why it seems radical).   When a woman wears a head covering in a manner to bring glory to herself as a style, this wasn't the intent of the head covering.

I agree that it doesn't have to be Little House on the Prairie.   But women should not be in competition with one another... Sisters in Christ should be concerned about their brothers in Christ falling.  Sisters in Christ should wear their head covering as the headship veiling of submission to God, and to save their glory for their worldly head, their husband.  The Mennonites are SORT OF similar to the nuns (from all of my observation being part of Orthodoxy for decades and being married to a Mennonite).  From my wife's testimony, there is no competition of clothing and that the sisters do speak to one another about modesty or if one sister seems to be getting "more liberal".  Like this, Nuns are not in competition and would certainly speak to their sisters if they got "more liberal".  The Mennonite women I can only say oddly seems to be like "family / mothers / wives" but kind of like nuns in an odd way.

For the Orthodox Christians, there are many laywomen like this who do indeed recognize the importance of modesty and not being in competition with their sisters.  In no way am I advocating that "Mennonites have dress right and EO wrong".   There are many Mennonites that dress more liberal.  It was an example of dress from a conservative group.  The Old Believer Orthodox would be another example.  I've also seen a lot of ROCOR photos where women dressed very respectfully and not in a luring way.

I will tell you though that the "little house on the prairie" look, often comes because they want to look similar and unchanging, non worldly, and from materials and labor from the USA.  They find it ironic to go beg God for mercy, yet wear clothes made by others who are "enslaved" financially.

Again, I do not judge the women in the photos that I posted, but merely making an observance.    The link photos are racy. (in fact there are way worse ones).
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 24, 2014, 08:51:11 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 24, 2014, 09:17:32 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.
Of course they participate. But toddlers are squirmy nonetheless. I experience the liturgy just fine.

As it is, this is actually much less of an issue than perhaps I implied. Hyperbole and all that.

But it's funny that you as someone who advocates nonviolence as a primary Christian virtue would take such a position as to teach children that hitting is OK if you have the power.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 24, 2014, 09:23:54 PM
Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 24, 2014, 10:02:57 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.

I have 6, and I disagree. Spanking isn't a catch all punishment. And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 24, 2014, 10:06:49 PM
We have 6 kids between 12-0. I spend most of the liturgy walking our almost 2 year old around the Nave. The 12, 8, 6, and 4 year olds behave very well (in fact, I can trust them to behave alone while I tend to the baby/toddler in the cry room). The 8 month old just wants meal breaks every 2 hours on the dot. The 2 year old wants to kiss everything in his zeal. This isn't something I will punish him for. But it isn't something he is allowed to do at random. Kids belong in the Nave during liturgy. If you do it  correctly, your children won't want to be taken out of liturgy. And it won't be because they don't want a spank.
 
My goal isn't to make my children obedient or submissive. My goal is to teach my children what is proper behavior. There is a distinct difference between teaching, and making your child submissive. Teaching with only negative/physical/painful correction doesn't work with any living being, animal or human.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 24, 2014, 10:08:51 PM
Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I agree. You can notice the beauty of a flower without having to fight all compulsion to pluck it. Noticing beauty isn't sinful.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 24, 2014, 10:12:09 PM
Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I agree. You can notice the beauty of a flower without having to fight all compulsion to pluck it. Noticing beauty isn't sinful.

Seconded!

All too often, the real voices of sanity and reason here come from women like Quinault, ZZ, Liza Symonenko, and the two Katherines. Keep up the good work, ladies!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Agabus on January 24, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
I dunno. Maybe there's something to helping a child make an unconscious connection between the liturgy and being verily smote.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 24, 2014, 10:26:23 PM
And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
I dunno. Maybe there's something to helping a child make an unconscious connection between the liturgy and being verily smote.


By his own admission yeshuaisiam was raised Orthodox. Maybe we know the source of the problem now ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 24, 2014, 11:02:34 PM
You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself.

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 24, 2014, 11:11:53 PM
You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself.

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.

Heh. In the not-too-distant future, you'll look back on what you've said here and cringe mightily.  :D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 24, 2014, 11:28:55 PM
JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 24, 2014, 11:44:12 PM
You could have pleasure possibly just for yourself.

That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.

This is not a novelty for a 17 year old male.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Velsigne on January 25, 2014, 12:03:01 AM
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   

Thank you for your honesty.  I don't believe men to be drooling and bumbling who "can't help it".   I do believe we can actively try to keep our minds focused.   There are men here that won't and apparently don't ever have their minds wander at all....

I guess I'm just not like that.  I most likely would have noticed the flesh of a buttock too.... But I may be worse, as I may notice tight shirts, tight dresses, and low cut shirts too.  Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

The thing I'm disagreeing with several people here about is when they blame the "man" for all of it.   Women *DO* sometimes try to bring attention to themselves in this manner.  We all know this.  In the scriptures it is said that people can cause others to sin.  I absolutely believe this.   

So I'm delving deep into the subject and taking the head covering issue further (which is why it seems radical).   When a woman wears a head covering in a manner to bring glory to herself as a style, this wasn't the intent of the head covering.

I agree that it doesn't have to be Little House on the Prairie.   But women should not be in competition with one another... Sisters in Christ should be concerned about their brothers in Christ falling.  Sisters in Christ should wear their head covering as the headship veiling of submission to God, and to save their glory for their worldly head, their husband.  The Mennonites are SORT OF similar to the nuns (from all of my observation being part of Orthodoxy for decades and being married to a Mennonite).  From my wife's testimony, there is no competition of clothing and that the sisters do speak to one another about modesty or if one sister seems to be getting "more liberal".  Like this, Nuns are not in competition and would certainly speak to their sisters if they got "more liberal".  The Mennonite women I can only say oddly seems to be like "family / mothers / wives" but kind of like nuns in an odd way.

For the Orthodox Christians, there are many laywomen like this who do indeed recognize the importance of modesty and not being in competition with their sisters.  In no way am I advocating that "Mennonites have dress right and EO wrong".   There are many Mennonites that dress more liberal.  It was an example of dress from a conservative group.  The Old Believer Orthodox would be another example.  I've also seen a lot of ROCOR photos where women dressed very respectfully and not in a luring way.

I will tell you though that the "little house on the prairie" look, often comes because they want to look similar and unchanging, non worldly, and from materials and labor from the USA.  They find it ironic to go beg God for mercy, yet wear clothes made by others who are "enslaved" financially.

Again, I do not judge the women in the photos that I posted, but merely making an observance.    The link photos are racy. (in fact there are way worse ones).

Given your avatar photo of the western macho man who could possibly elicit a less than pure thought even from under a headscarf, I find your post to be kind of funny.  I admit when I was younger that there was one cowboy with sky blue eyes who left me speechless with sheer masculine beauty.  Wholesome hardworking all weather tall strong and quiet good natured man with big muscles, high and tight blonde hair kind of stuck down with sweat when he pulled his hat off, mm, mm, mm.  Sigh.  Is it a sin to think about that?


Less funny though is that one of the ladies critiqued in your photo line-up could stumble into this thread and be hurt by it. 

Similar things have happened more than once on this forum. 

I also hope one of their fathers and brothers doesn't find it then want to kill you, or maybe run you down on horseback, rope you by the neck, throw you to the ground and tie you up for branding and that other activity that cowboys do to the calves (not heifers) come spring.  That would be a grave sin according to the Gospel, one that you led them into.

You've said such nice things about your wife on these forums, I'm glad you found a wife you are happy with.  Hope you can worry less about what other women are doing.  Maybe once your testosterone simmers down things will get easier for you.

Happy trails! 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Asteriktos on January 25, 2014, 12:08:31 AM
That's really all I want, tbh. I'm hedonistic and not ashamed to admit it. Everyone else can keep all that emotional lovey-dovey romanticist stuff.

I can suggest a couple books on ancient hedonists that are so incredibly boring that it will probably sour you to the entire concept, if you'd like to "cure yourself".  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 02:34:31 AM
JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.

I don't think I'm overstating my views for dramatic affect, thank you very much. Yes, I do have greater problems than hedonism. I appreciate the concern. I have very many problems, mostly coming from my parents and my background. In fact, I recently moved out of my parents' home and I'm now living with my grandparents because I got tired of my mom unyieldingly slapping me across the face after an argument. I'm a very detached, somewhat cold person. Yes, I have trouble sympathizing with others, understanding my feelings, and dealing with emotion. This is especially true in regards to the opposite sex, where developing an "emotional" relationship with a woman seems about as odd and painful as tying anchors to each of my ears and jumping in the sea. Speaking out loud here, it's a shame that Shiny was banned. His views on women were true in many regards, at least from my unfortunate experiences with them. I probably am sociopathic and need to overcome my emotional barriers and detachment toward women. I am however working on this in therapy.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 03:17:30 AM
I don't think you are nearly as detached or unfeeling as you think you are. You are just going thru a difficult time. And the sociopathic people I have met are much more functional than you are. I know that sounds like an insult, but really it isn't. There was an old poster on this site Greek is Christian that pulled off appearing sociopathic far better than you do. And even he wasn't a sociopath. You care far too much to really be as bad off as you seem to think you are. The sad part is that you sell yourself as an unfeeling and cruel automaton, and you really are anything but. If anything, I suspect that you feel certain things too strongly given your posting history.

I was given leave by numerous social workers and counselors to leave my home, and get emancipated. They were all willing to back me up in court. But in the end, toughing it out and moving out at 18 was just easier. I already lived with my grandmother since my parents lived with my grandmother, so I didn't have any other options. I am 35, and the relationship with my mother/step father is worse than it was as a teen, so we haven't spoken in two years since they started to be abusive to my kids. In short; I know dysfunctional parental relationships very well.

I hope you will stop making yourself out to be such a jerk, because really you aren't nearly as bad as you make yourself out to be . If I seem impatient and rude, it is because I have met, known, and even loved sociopathic people. I am even related to a few. And as much as you playact being emotionless, you are anything but. My patience for people that claim to be awful is just nil. You are a veritable lamb with a halo compared to the people I have known.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Arachne on January 25, 2014, 06:00:41 AM
It may be fashionable to call the Pacific Northwest 'liberal' like it's a dirty word, but the Seattle Times ran an impressive story a couple of years ago, on headcoverings across religious and cultural traditions. If anything, it's made clear that there's no such thing as 'one size fits all'.

Article (http://seattletimes.com/html/pacificnw/2018971334_pacificpheadcover02.html)
Photos (http://seattletimes.com/html/picturethis/2018987606_womensheadcoverings.html)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 06:25:04 AM
I'd say around 1/3 of the women cover at some point in our parish. I used to wear a head covering. But when I am pregnant it is just too hot, even in the winter to wear a headcovering no matter how light it is. Liturgy is physical for most people at certain times of the year. Imagine how much hotter I am holding 1-2 kids the entire time! :) I'd like to get back to wearing a cover. But I can't do a long sleeve shirt and a cover, I get so hot I feel faint. I am too prone to heat exhaustion to risk it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 25, 2014, 07:06:27 AM
I'd say around 1/3 of the women cover at some point in our parish. I used to wear a head covering. But when I am pregnant it is just too hot, even in the winter to wear a headcovering no matter how light it is. Liturgy is physical for most people at certain times of the year. Imagine how much hotter I am holding 1-2 kids the entire time! :) I'd like to get back to wearing a cover. But I can't do a long sleeve shirt and a cover, I get so hot I feel faint. I am too prone to heat exhaustion to risk it.

I wear a lacy headcovering. Now, some here have said that lacy=sexy, but at least the lacy headcovering can breathe, so I can tolerate the heat better. Furthermore, my headcovering does not have bling on it, and it is long so that it fully covers my head and hair.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 07:52:07 AM
I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 25, 2014, 10:06:46 AM
JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.

You think? I raised three kids, drama is a major tool in any teen arsenal. ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 25, 2014, 10:08:43 AM
I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.

I never realized my grandmother had waist length hair until she had a stroke and was in the hospital. It was always in a tight, braided bun thing....
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Arachne on January 25, 2014, 10:53:09 AM
JamesR, if what you write is indeed the truth; you have greater problems than just hedoism. You should investigate whether or not you are sociopathic, or possibly have anti-social personality disorder. Although I suspect that you overstate your views for dramatic effect.

You think? I raised three kids, drama is a major tool in any teen arsenal. ;)

Not that they would admit it, of course... ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: minasoliman on January 25, 2014, 12:33:15 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 04:23:09 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

That sounds about right. I just sold our complete works of Augustine, otherwise I would look it up and post quotes.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: NicholasMyra on January 25, 2014, 05:04:33 PM
Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 25, 2014, 05:13:24 PM
Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.

Male on male rape shouldn't be discounted nor male on male torture. I witnessed both at church camp. And I am pretty sure a few rather young girls were "deflowered" at the same camp by some of my peers against their will.

Good times. Then again, this wasn't really a church camp phenomenon per se as much as a small rural town phenomenon. Similar things went on in the schools I attended, the parties, etc. The sorta world those who watch Duck Dynasty romanticize. I am sure if the church camp had had animals, bestiality wold have happened as well.

I remember reading Lord of the Flies under duress and thinking it was rather underwhelming.

I guess hats were what were missing in the social order.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 25, 2014, 07:10:21 PM
I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.

Oh, yes.

I keep my hair shoulder length. Several times when it was longer, I got tangled in bed with it and my husband had to set me free, especially since he was lying on a few of my precious locks.  ;D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 25, 2014, 07:28:03 PM
Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.

I acknowledged that in my prior post. But I would say it is more a function of teen angst and hormones than a 'necessary function of church camp in  many American churches.'
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Cognomen on January 25, 2014, 07:35:34 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: minasoliman on January 25, 2014, 08:07:40 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
At the very least, the propagation of Original Sin as a result of sex is something I haven't come across a lot.  Usually, the Virgin birth was because Christ becoming the "first born of a new creation", not to "avoid Original Sin".

I understand the idea of "virginity" symbolizing "purity" is very common, but I don't think the idea of "sex" equating "sin" is.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 25, 2014, 09:38:30 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
At the very least, the propagation of Original Sin as a result of sex is something I haven't come across a lot.  Usually, the Virgin birth was because Christ becoming the "first born of a new creation", not to "avoid Original Sin".

I understand the idea of "virginity" symbolizing "purity" is very common, but I don't think the idea of "sex" equating "sin" is.

Read Psalm 50 prayed at Sunday Matins or during the Paraclesis to the Theotokos:  "In sins did my mother conceive me."
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 09:54:04 PM
I've tried cotton gauze, as well as laces. Everything is just too hot. My hair is almost waist length, so that certainly factors in too though.

Oh, yes.

I keep my hair shoulder length. Several times when it was longer, I got tangled in bed with it and my husband had to set me free, especially since he was lying on a few of my precious locks.  ;D

When we were first married 17 years ago, my dear husband had long hair too. We often woke with our hair tangled together, which isn't nearly as romantic as it might sound. I wear my hair braided to bed now.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:24:37 PM
We all should be aware of what the body of the church is doing right?  We all should scrutinize.

The body of the church or the bodies in the church?
I never notice the bodies in church because I am constantly blinded by the heavenly glory of the angelic hosts present at the liturgy.

Or maybe because I'm spending the entire time praying my kids make it through another service without breaking anything.

One of those.

Yeah, that.

Do the children participate in the liturgy?    Do they cause you not to be able to experience liturgy as you believe an EO Christian should?

It is amazing what a good spanking can do.  Just saying, from one parent (I have 5 children) to another.

I have 6, and I disagree. Spanking isn't a catch all punishment. And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.

Great, so you disagree with me, yet you bold out and agree that your children are bad during liturgy and you don't want them to break something.

No sense in arguing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:35:13 PM
On the original topic (I think), I have seen the flesh of a female buttock while "it" was approaching the Holy Gifts.  Maybe some middle ground is needed between that and the Little House on the Prairie attire. 

I can top that...I once saw a married couple in the middle of what can only be described as foreplay as they walked up to the chalice. 
me too, i've seen some heavy petting like that here in the us. in romania that wouldn't have happened (in church) for a host of reasons. I wasn't scandalized but i thought it was silly.

Wow.  I honestly thought I would hold the top prize for longer than that.  I concede that "heavy petting" beats "flesh of a buttock."   

Thank you for your honesty.  I don't believe men to be drooling and bumbling who "can't help it".   I do believe we can actively try to keep our minds focused.   There are men here that won't and apparently don't ever have their minds wander at all....

I guess I'm just not like that.  I most likely would have noticed the flesh of a buttock too.... But I may be worse, as I may notice tight shirts, tight dresses, and low cut shirts too.  Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

The thing I'm disagreeing with several people here about is when they blame the "man" for all of it.   Women *DO* sometimes try to bring attention to themselves in this manner.  We all know this.  In the scriptures it is said that people can cause others to sin.  I absolutely believe this.   

So I'm delving deep into the subject and taking the head covering issue further (which is why it seems radical).   When a woman wears a head covering in a manner to bring glory to herself as a style, this wasn't the intent of the head covering.

I agree that it doesn't have to be Little House on the Prairie.   But women should not be in competition with one another... Sisters in Christ should be concerned about their brothers in Christ falling.  Sisters in Christ should wear their head covering as the headship veiling of submission to God, and to save their glory for their worldly head, their husband.  The Mennonites are SORT OF similar to the nuns (from all of my observation being part of Orthodoxy for decades and being married to a Mennonite).  From my wife's testimony, there is no competition of clothing and that the sisters do speak to one another about modesty or if one sister seems to be getting "more liberal".  Like this, Nuns are not in competition and would certainly speak to their sisters if they got "more liberal".  The Mennonite women I can only say oddly seems to be like "family / mothers / wives" but kind of like nuns in an odd way.

For the Orthodox Christians, there are many laywomen like this who do indeed recognize the importance of modesty and not being in competition with their sisters.  In no way am I advocating that "Mennonites have dress right and EO wrong".   There are many Mennonites that dress more liberal.  It was an example of dress from a conservative group.  The Old Believer Orthodox would be another example.  I've also seen a lot of ROCOR photos where women dressed very respectfully and not in a luring way.

I will tell you though that the "little house on the prairie" look, often comes because they want to look similar and unchanging, non worldly, and from materials and labor from the USA.  They find it ironic to go beg God for mercy, yet wear clothes made by others who are "enslaved" financially.

Again, I do not judge the women in the photos that I posted, but merely making an observance.    The link photos are racy. (in fact there are way worse ones).

Given your avatar photo of the western macho man who could possibly elicit a less than pure thought even from under a headscarf, I find your post to be kind of funny.  I admit when I was younger that there was one cowboy with sky blue eyes who left me speechless with sheer masculine beauty.  Wholesome hardworking all weather tall strong and quiet good natured man with big muscles, high and tight blonde hair kind of stuck down with sweat when he pulled his hat off, mm, mm, mm.  Sigh.  Is it a sin to think about that?


Less funny though is that one of the ladies critiqued in your photo line-up could stumble into this thread and be hurt by it. 

Similar things have happened more than once on this forum. 

I also hope one of their fathers and brothers doesn't find it then want to kill you, or maybe run you down on horseback, rope you by the neck, throw you to the ground and tie you up for branding and that other activity that cowboys do to the calves (not heifers) come spring.  That would be a grave sin according to the Gospel, one that you led them into.

You've said such nice things about your wife on these forums, I'm glad you found a wife you are happy with.  Hope you can worry less about what other women are doing.  Maybe once your testosterone simmers down things will get easier for you.

Happy trails! 

This makes no sense.  My avatar, you don't even see a face or skin in???  I simply chose it because I live on a farm.

The photos, why would their relatives care?  They are all over the internet, some on famous news sites!

Also trust me, at my age, my testosterone is plenty simmered down.   I am exploring the depths of sin, and how sisters in Christ can purposely dress for attention and cause brothers to stray or be distracted.

But yes, I am very happy with my wife. :)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:38:11 PM
Yes, over the course of the thirty five years of our camp, and I am sure at Antiochian Village as well, kids have been caught behaving inappropriately and have been sent home. Not many, but a few. So what? This proves exactly what I might ask?
Podkarpatska,

Church camps are known for being places where repressed teens hook up. This is not saying anything of Antiochian Village specifically (which I'm sure is somehow exempt from such regular indiscretions...) 

This is not due to a failure to maintain the fundamentals of church camp. This is a foreseeable and regular part of church camp; one might even say a necessary function of church camp in many American churches.

Male on male rape shouldn't be discounted nor male on male torture. I witnessed both at church camp. And I am pretty sure a few rather young girls were "deflowered" at the same camp by some of my peers against their will.

Good times. Then again, this wasn't really a church camp phenomenon per se as much as a small rural town phenomenon. Similar things went on in the schools I attended, the parties, etc. The sorta world those who watch Duck Dynasty romanticize. I am sure if the church camp had had animals, bestiality wold have happened as well.

I remember reading Lord of the Flies under duress and thinking it was rather underwhelming.

I guess hats were what were missing in the social order.

WHAT?   What kind of church camp did you go to?  That's disturbing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:40:34 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

I believe that the sin of lust goes much further than people can imagine.  However, desiring one's spouse, I draw the line there.   So long as it is for mutuality and in love.  I would view a pregnancy as the gift and reward of that love within a marriage.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:44:04 PM
I'd say around 1/3 of the women cover at some point in our parish. I used to wear a head covering. But when I am pregnant it is just too hot, even in the winter to wear a headcovering no matter how light it is. Liturgy is physical for most people at certain times of the year. Imagine how much hotter I am holding 1-2 kids the entire time! :) I'd like to get back to wearing a cover. But I can't do a long sleeve shirt and a cover, I get so hot I feel faint. I am too prone to heat exhaustion to risk it.

I wear a lacy headcovering. Now, some here have said that lacy=sexy, but at least the lacy headcovering can breathe, so I can tolerate the heat better. Furthermore, my headcovering does not have bling on it, and it is long so that it fully covers my head and hair.

I would not see lacy as sexy, but how the lacy is worn.  If it is meant to draw attention from men, then  would you see that as wrong?  (I doubt you would as you are married and all, but just saying)  If it is simply meant as a tool for "coolness" but you are honestly covering for the right reasons, that's wonderful!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 10:47:25 PM
Quote
I would not see lacy as sexy, but how the lacy is worn.  If it is meant to draw attention from men, then  would you see that as wrong?  

And how does one discern for what effect "how the lace is worn"?

That's right, it's in the eye of the beholder. To the pure, all things are pure ....
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Cognomen on January 25, 2014, 10:48:44 PM
I somewhat have a lot more sympathy with St. Augustine's theology of sex after reading some of the comments here

 :-\


I am interested in hearing more.  Do you have a link or book reference or more info on it?  Thanks.

If I find a good article, I'll try to remember to send you one.  The idea is that there is something inherently "dirty" or "sinful" about sex, to the point where the lusts of sex are somewhat of a necessary evil to propagate children, but in so doing, because of the act of sex, it propagates Original Sin as well.  Thus, his answer to why Christ was born of a Virgin was so that He would be born without Original Sin.  It's a very dark view, and not something you would read from a consensus of Church fathers at the time.  But given his past, one would sympathize with the view, but not necessarily agree with it.

Is the bolded portion accurate?  I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed by the early Church fathers.  It seems from what I've read that the "sex within marriage is a beautiful, almost sacred thing" view is more modern, at least in what has been written.  Perhaps I'm mistaken though.
At the very least, the propagation of Original Sin as a result of sex is something I haven't come across a lot.  Usually, the Virgin birth was because Christ becoming the "first born of a new creation", not to "avoid Original Sin".

I understand the idea of "virginity" symbolizing "purity" is very common, but I don't think the idea of "sex" equating "sin" is.

Ok.  Actually, my first reply had something about "The Original Sin part of your comment aside, I have rarely seen positive views on sex expressed..."  So that makes more sense in this context.  I still think most fathers tended to speak negatively about sex though, making Augustine's view--again, excepting the Original Sin issue--less of an outlying position on this.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:51:36 PM
And spanking a child into behaving during liturgy is a baaaaaddddd idea.
I dunno. Maybe there's something to helping a child make an unconscious connection between the liturgy and being verily smote.


By his own admission yeshuaisiam was raised Orthodox. Maybe we know the source of the problem now ;)

Yes, because my dad stopped the divine liturgy, left the altar,  came all the way back into the pews and whooped me.   Either that or he stopped the divine liturgy, brought me on the side of the table of oblation, and gave me some licks. :D

Look, you take the child out of the church, let them know that they are to sit still and pay attention, spank them for not, then bring them back.   I've seen it work countless times.  

Funny, I don't worry about my children breaking things in church.  If they act up they get it.   Oddly they mostly sing along and pay attention.  Wonder what I'm doing wrong?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 25, 2014, 10:53:22 PM
I think it was de Lubac that said "the Fathers are the Church's diary when she was 17". 17 yo write down many embarrassing things.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 10:53:52 PM
Quote
Funny, I don't worry about my children breaking things in church.

Given the church you attend isn't Orthodox, there would be precious little in it to break.  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:54:57 PM
Quote
I would not see lacy as sexy, but how the lacy is worn.  If it is meant to draw attention from men, then  would you see that as wrong?  

And how does one discern for what effect "how the lace is worn"?

That's right, it's in the eye of the beholder. To the pure, all things are pure ....

YOU DON'T discern.

She discerns.

If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.
The man is wrong too for falling.

The point of this thread was to point out my weakness, hoping that it would shed light on how some men can fall, (even in small ways).   If a sister is looking for attention through her veil, that is not the proper use of one (or her outfit) in church (or anywhere for that matter).
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 10:55:53 PM
Quote
Funny, I don't worry about my children breaking things in church.

Given the church you attend isn't Orthodox, there would be precious little in it to break.  :P

Except the thing often lacking in the Orthodox Church, Bibles widely available. :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 25, 2014, 10:56:25 PM
Can you please explain what you mean by falling in small ways? I honestly don't know what you mean.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:00:18 PM
Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:00:52 PM
Can you please explain what you mean by falling in small ways? I honestly don't know what you mean.

Hard to articulate in text.    My opinion on the matter:

My best shot:
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

Falling heavier would be staring and continue to not correct yourself and letting your mind wander a lot, and it goes downhill from there.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:04:32 PM
Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

The person who wears the veil "honestly", would not be purposely causing another to fall, I think that is wonderful.

Hence if the woman wears a veil that is lacy, matches her outfit, hair drawn all around it, with bling, and the lace matches the lace of her bust cover and SHE WORE IT ON PURPOSE that way to attract male attention, that is sinful for her.   The men who look that is sinful to them.

Perception has nothing to do with it.  In the photos I posted, that is my own weakness.  I was just trying to illustrate how some people can fall to that stuff.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 25, 2014, 11:05:46 PM
Hard to articulate in text.    My opinion on the matter:

My best shot:
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

Falling heavier would be staring and continue to not correct yourself and letting your mind wander a lot, and it goes downhill from there.


I don't think that sounds like falling in small ways. I think that sounds like life. That is along the lines of what I had in mind when I said this:

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I think you're being too hard on yourself.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:08:56 PM
Hard to articulate in text.    My opinion on the matter:

My best shot:
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

Falling heavier would be staring and continue to not correct yourself and letting your mind wander a lot, and it goes downhill from there.


I don't think that sounds like falling in small ways. I think that sounds like life. That is along the lines of what I had in mind when I said this:

Not that I am staring and drooling, I hope others understand.  I'm talking about the small temptations, small wanderings, and distractions that men have.

This is where you're losing me, to be honest. I don't know what you're referring to, but I don't think it's wrong to notice someone else's attractiveness. I don't think you CAN help that. If you walk by someone who is attractive and you think, "Oh! He/she is attractive!", then you're just noticing something that just is, in the same way you might notice that they have brown hair or a red shirt on. That, I think, is different than noticing someone attractive and letting your imagination wander into lust.

My point is, if you have the first scenario in mind, then I think you're setting yourself up for failure.

I think you're being too hard on yourself.

I want to agree with you.  I really do.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:10:18 PM
Some of you folks may be taking this modesty stuff too seriously. As long as she's not wearing boy-shorts then I can control myself. Usually I'm too busy thinking about food during Liturgy than I am sex because of the pre-Eucharist fast.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:11:01 PM
Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

The person who wears the veil "honestly", would not be purposely causing another to fall, I think that is wonderful.

Hence if the woman wears a veil that is lacy, matches her outfit, hair drawn all around it, with bling, and the lace matches the lace of her bust cover and SHE WORE IT ON PURPOSE that way to attract male attention, that is sinful for her.   The men who look that is sinful to them.

Perception has nothing to do with it.  In the photos I posted, that is my own weakness.  I was just trying to illustrate how some people can fall to that stuff.



Perception has EVERYTHING to do with it! You are perceiving the intention of the woman, whether that intention on her part is true or not! You have no idea whether she is intentionally being provocative, or simply dressing well. The giveaway in all of this is this comment of yours:

Quote
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress

My goodness, if this isn't obsessive behavior ...

 :o ::) :P :P :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:12:59 PM
If a woman comes into a parish wearing a covering, when all the other women are not wearing a cover, they draw attention to themselves. My physical presence with 6 children in tow often draws attention to me even when they are well behaved. When I carry two kids at once, that REALLY draws attention to me.

Having attention drawn to you, doesn't mean that you are automatically sinful.

When a lovely black woman attends services in an almost all white parish, she draws attention to herself whether she desires to or not.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:14:21 PM
How about men dressing modestly as to not distract the womenfolk? I had to stop wearing my Chanel Allure: Homme Sport cologne to keep the middle-aged ladies at bay  :D We should also button up every button on our shirts so that the women aren't aroused by the chest hair.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:15:28 PM
Chest hair has a similar effect to ipecac for me. Back hair more so. That is why I have an Amerindian hubby!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:19:20 PM
Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 25, 2014, 11:20:00 PM
Chest hair has a similar effect to ipecac for me. Back hair more so. That is why I have an Amerindian hubby!
James wouldn't  be a match then.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:20:10 PM
Chest hair has a similar effect to ipecac for me. Back hair more so. That is why I have an Amerindian hubby!

Do Amerindians have to shave? I'm a quarter or so Navajo from my paternal grandmother's side and I still have to shave every morning.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:22:29 PM
Many Indians can't grow much in the way of facial/body hair. It took my father almost a decade to get anything even approaching a goatee, it took my father-in-law a couple years to get his little goatee too.a

SW Indians tend to have more in the way of body hair I think. Mexicans are known for having more body/facial hair (male or female) from what I recall from beauty school.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:23:08 PM
Quote
If she wears to bring attention to herself that is wrong.

Yet the person who perceives it as such is the person who is looking at her. In other words, you, not her.

This is the point you have been missing. With all your obsessive examination of what women wear, you need help, and lots of it. This fixation of yours is unhealthy, to say the least.

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

The person who wears the veil "honestly", would not be purposely causing another to fall, I think that is wonderful.

Hence if the woman wears a veil that is lacy, matches her outfit, hair drawn all around it, with bling, and the lace matches the lace of her bust cover and SHE WORE IT ON PURPOSE that way to attract male attention, that is sinful for her.   The men who look that is sinful to them.

Perception has nothing to do with it.  In the photos I posted, that is my own weakness.  I was just trying to illustrate how some people can fall to that stuff.



Perception has EVERYTHING to do with it! You are perceiving the intention of the woman, whether that intention on her part is true or not! You have no idea whether she is intentionally being provocative, or simply dressing well. The giveaway in all of this is this comment of yours:

Quote
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress

My goodness, if this isn't obsessive behavior ...

 :o ::) :P :P :P

Heh, I'm speaking of two people, not the man judging the woman's perception.

IF the woman, on her own, intentionally uses a veil for attracting men, that is her sin.

If a man under his own will lusts for that woman, it is his own sin.

The man doesn't judge if she is doing it for her own attractiveness.    Of course, sometimes it's more obvious than not, but still he should not judge that was her intent - he should worry about himself.

That's what I mean.

To add:
I TRULY believe that MOST women know if what they are wearing is geared at attracting men....  Women are most often way more keen and alert to styles, highlights, decor, and detail oriented than men.  They generally KNOW when it comes to clothing.  

So if they are purposely trying to draw lustful attention, even in small ways, I believe that is a sin on their own.   A man who falls for that, it's a sin too.  A man who lusts after a woman who is NOT trying to dress for her attention, it's a sin as well.  

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 25, 2014, 11:25:17 PM
Mennonite temptations even when made public are as juicy as cardboard. Let's move on.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:25:37 PM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:26:02 PM
Many Indians can't grow much in the way of facial/body hair. It took my father almost a decade to get anything even approaching a goatee, it took my father-in-law a couple years to get his little goatee too.

So, I take it that Amerindian women have smooth legs at all times? I can dig that.

My husband drives a bus.

Wow! Another bus driver?!

My paternal grand-pappy put in upwards of 30 years of service to AC Transit before being fired for storing Jack Daniels on board.

They originally didn't want to give him his retirement benefits due to the fact, but since he was Union, they caved in  ;)

He's a legend 'round these parts among bus drivers. He even made the newspaper after the unfortunate alcohol incident.

Er, back to the subject of things, I would agree that a person can't help it if they are attractive. I mean, as long as they aren't exotically dancing in front of us and aren't dressed unreasonably indecent, then I don't think anyone has any right to complain about immodesty.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:26:29 PM
Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:28:11 PM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

No; although high-heeled shoes perhaps.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:28:23 PM
I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:32:03 PM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

:)

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  

I will have to find this writing, as I'm not exactly saying it right.... I have it in a book somewhere...

Also consider, if EO nuns wear make up.  You should ask one why not.

Also it's quite freaky.   Honestly, pork fat in lipstick, crushed snake shells for powder, and bat feces for mascara?   Why not be happy with who God made you to be, rather than buying into a wordly mentality of beauty?  (Not speaking to YOU directly, but in general).

It also goes along with jewelry, (costly array).
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:32:56 PM
Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  

You're still assUming you know the intent of others, and blaming your own weakness on it. How can you know what goes on in the mind of another person who's simply standing in church and not talking to you? That's right, you can't. Only God can.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:33:05 PM
I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.


I live near Dallas Texas and am exposed to women all the time who don't dress Mennonite.  I believe men look more than you can possibly imagine.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:35:49 PM
Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  

You're still assUming you know the intent of others, and blaming your own weakness on it. How can you know what goes on in the mind of another person who's simply standing in church and not talking to you? That's right, you can't. Only God can.

I don't know the intent of others at all and don't assume it at all.

I'm that people know their own intent.

If a woman sets out on her own, with her own intent do cause people to lust for her it is her own sin.

If a man lusts for her, it is his sin.
If he does not lust for her, there is no sin.

It has nothing to do with perception.
The man never knows the intent.  But the woman does know her intent. 

Hopefully this clarifies.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:39:00 PM
Here's the thing. Just because someone is attractive, and is noticed by others, doesn't mean they are sinful and desiring said attention.

My husband drives a bus. The majority of his co-workers are fat and hideous. My husband is really, very, attractive. I have in the past, ridden his bus. About 50% of the women flirt with my husband. I don't fault my husband for this.

When I worked in a salon, my co-workers were 3 gay men. I had many male clients that chose me so they could flirt and make sexual comments at me (which they later regretted...I won't go into that). But it wasn't my fault that these male clients decided to flirt with me.

Blaming an attractive person for being noticed is missing the point entirely.

Were you trying to attract the male clients or men in general by your attire?  

That's my point.

If you were then you are promoting them making such comments.  If not, then you didn't contribute to their behavior.

Your husband being attractive -
Did he wear something or act in a flirting manner to prompt such flirtation?

If not he didn't do anything wrong.  If so, he's part guilty.  

You're still assUming you know the intent of others, and blaming your own weakness on it. How can you know what goes on in the mind of another person who's simply standing in church and not talking to you? That's right, you can't. Only God can.

I don't know the intent of others at all and don't assume it at all.

I'm that people know their own intent.

If a woman sets out on her own, with her own intent do cause people to lust for her it is her own sin.

If a man lusts for her, it is his sin.
If he does not lust for her, there is no sin.

It has nothing to do with perception.
The man never knows the intent.  But the woman does know her intent. 

Hopefully this clarifies.

No, it does not. You have a pathological view of what is modest/sinful attire, borne out of your obsession with it. Seriously, you need help.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:39:51 PM
He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting.

See, this is why every man should watch pornography. The long term affects will de-sensitize a man to the distraction that comes from seeing a naked or nearly naked woman in real life  ;)

Just kidding

In reality, I live in the Bay Area where North Faces and Ugg boots are the standard almost all year long, so there aren't much distractions, and in the few hot days of the year where there are distractions, no one wants to look because we're all hideously untanned.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 25, 2014, 11:40:00 PM
If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

You can't set me up like that.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:40:11 PM
I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.


I live near Dallas Texas and am exposed to women all the time who don't dress Mennonite.  I believe men look more than you can possibly imagine.

Your original post was that you noticed things more after being around Mennonite dressed women. You seem to interpret this as sinful for some reason.

People can live in a nudist society, and still find themselves attracted to fully dressed women. So it has nothing to do with skin in those cases.


I personally don't like make-up. It makes me feel claustrophobic. I was educated in applying it very well, and even attained a license as an esthetician. But I still don't like it much. I will teach our daughters to apply it correctly. But since I don't wear make-up, I doubt they will. Clean and clear skin is better than any make-up. Besides, they all have such long/thick lashes that I doubt they could open their eyes if they wore mascara! LOL
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 25, 2014, 11:41:07 PM
In reality, I live in the Bay Area where North Faces and Ugg boots are the standard almost all year long, so there aren't much distractions, and in the few hot days of the year where there are distractions, no one wants to look because we're all hideously untanned.

LOL!!  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:41:38 PM
And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:41:56 PM
Why not be happy with who God made you to be, rather than buying into a wordly mentality of beauty?

Normally I'd agree, but given that I myself am attracted to expensive watches, colognes, and shoes when I have money, I'd be a hypocrite to call anyone else out on it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:44:55 PM
In reality, I live in the Bay Area where North Faces and Ugg boots are the standard almost all year long, so there aren't much distractions, and in the few hot days of the year where there are distractions, no one wants to look because we're all hideously untanned.

LOL!!  :D :D :D

It's true.

The whole Beach Boy, Surfer, perpetual Summer stereotype has really ruined California. For the most part, we're a pretty cold, cloudy state that's almost always Fall, at least in the Bay and northward. The Central Valley is a bit hotter, but it's depressing, full of career criminals on parole, and there are no beaches.

I can't speak on behalf of SoCal however.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 25, 2014, 11:47:14 PM
And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.

What the heck? I'll play.

Yeah, you can be aroused just from talking to someone without even seeing them, occasionally not even hearing them.

When I lived in the Central Valley for Freshman year back in 2010, I was away from all my friends and only kept up with them via text and phone. I still felt very aroused and distracted when that certain someone would text me. It becomes a habit.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:47:36 PM
You keep bringing it back to nuns for some reason I can not comprehend. Laity aren't called to monasticism. You wouldn't require that all men dress like monks in man-dresses. Why would you want female laity to dress like nuns?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:50:02 PM
Precisely James. Arousal doesn't require being in the physical presence of the other person. Nor do they even have to write anything that is sexual. You are attracted because you are attracted.

As to sex drive; perfectly heterosexual people are sexually active in prisons without the presence of people of the opposite sex. Sometimes arousal has everything to do with the sex drive of the individual person, and nothing to do with the attractiveness of the people present.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:50:14 PM
I think I kind of get what he is getting at. He is so used to every woman he is around being fully covered in a "modest" manner that he finds all other forms of dress distracting. But this is his personal issue, not one for society at large. Of course a man raised in the 1900's would find clothing very immodest if he was suddenly plunged into society today.


I live near Dallas Texas and am exposed to women all the time who don't dress Mennonite.  I believe men look more than you can possibly imagine.

Your original post was that you noticed things more after being around Mennonite dressed women. You seem to interpret this as sinful for some reason.

People can live in a nudist society, and still find themselves attracted to fully dressed women. So it has nothing to do with skin in those cases.


I personally don't like make-up. It makes me feel claustrophobic. I was educated in applying it very well, and even attained a license as an esthetician. But I still don't like it much. I will teach our daughters to apply it correctly. But since I don't wear make-up, I doubt they will. Clean and clear skin is better than any make-up. Besides, they all have such long/thick lashes that I doubt they could open their eyes if they wore mascara! LOL

Yes, after being around Mennonites for a good time period, I realized how much of a distraction there really was.  Not that the looks increased, but "started again".

When a woman wears a tight shirt, men look.  If 5 women wear tight shirts, men STILL look.
When no woman around wears a tight shirt, men often don't notice or not nearly as much.

When I went back into "the real world" - suddenly - it was a realization of how much I looked.

That's what I was getting at.

On the other subject:
I'm sure your daughters are the handwork of God,  and would have no need to paint up their faces.  I have 3 daughters, one a teen, and they too are the handwork of God - they have no need to let Barbie or fashion magazines convince them they are not pretty enough.  :)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 25, 2014, 11:50:49 PM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

:)

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:52:29 PM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

:)

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?



Indeed.  ::) :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:52:39 PM
And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.

What the heck? I'll play.

Yeah, you can be aroused just from talking to someone without even seeing them, occasionally not even hearing them.

When I lived in the Central Valley for Freshman year back in 2010, I was away from all my friends and only kept up with them via text and phone. I still felt very aroused and distracted when that certain someone would text me. It becomes a habit.

I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  But what you are aroused by is a fantasy in this case, not reality.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:54:21 PM
And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.

What the heck? I'll play.

Yeah, you can be aroused just from talking to someone without even seeing them, occasionally not even hearing them.

When I lived in the Central Valley for Freshman year back in 2010, I was away from all my friends and only kept up with them via text and phone. I still felt very aroused and distracted when that certain someone would text me. It becomes a habit.

I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  But what you are aroused by is a fantasy in this case, not reality.

So one is a sin and the other isn't? You can't have it both ways, yesh.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:54:39 PM
You keep bringing it back to nuns for some reason I can not comprehend. Laity aren't called to monasticism. You wouldn't require that all men dress like monks in man-dresses. Why would you want female laity to dress like nuns?

The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

No, I don't "require" and am not advocating for requirement.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:55:38 PM
I have on occasion worn make-up, but it has literally been years. This has more to do with not desiring to look like the exhausted wreck I feel like. Or it is so I can look extra pretty for my husband, not gain the attention of random strangers. My husband doesn't care one way or another. But a woman that feels like they look beautiful is more apt to feel confident, and confidence can be very attractive compared to a woman that thinks they look awful. So I would never fault a woman for needing make-up as a confidence builder. I think that is sad, but I don't judge. For my part, I never want to hear any of our daughters *or future daughters-in-law* say they feel "naked" without make-up.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 25, 2014, 11:55:51 PM
Quote
The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

Care to explain this, yesh?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 25, 2014, 11:56:20 PM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

:)

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?



Indeed.  ::) :P

Unlike a veil, in almost every case, make up is used to draw attention of the flesh.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 25, 2014, 11:57:29 PM
You keep bringing it back to nuns for some reason I can not comprehend. Laity aren't called to monasticism. You wouldn't require that all men dress like monks in man-dresses. Why would you want female laity to dress like nuns?

The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

No, I don't "require" and am not advocating for requirement.

You have certainly voiced a preference for it.

Women notice the...er...."package" of guys too. So all men should wear the rassa. ;D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:00:01 AM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

:)

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?



Indeed.  ::) :P

Unlike a veil, in almost every case, make up is used to draw attention of the flesh.


And does this mean you are also ascribing the issue you have with the looking causing temptation, to other men?

I get and am not arguing with the general idea that men do think of such things more, but honestly, some of the examples posited in this thread are pretty 'out there' in terms of men in church being temped.  Sure it happens....and young men more so, but honestly, you have such little confidence in the rest of your gender to be decent and good people.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:01:29 AM
You know, we could just switch to women on one side of the church, and men on the other side with a gigantic wall inbetween. ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 12:04:34 AM
And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.

What the heck? I'll play.

Yeah, you can be aroused just from talking to someone without even seeing them, occasionally not even hearing them.

When I lived in the Central Valley for Freshman year back in 2010, I was away from all my friends and only kept up with them via text and phone. I still felt very aroused and distracted when that certain someone would text me. It becomes a habit.

I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  But what you are aroused by is a fantasy in this case, not reality.

True but it's still lust and therefore sinful in either case.

Hentei or whatever it's called is technically fantasy but it's still something people commit lust in the heart over.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 12:05:06 AM
You know, we could just switch to women on one side of the church, and men on the other side with a gigantic wall inbetween. ;)

Yeah but then the LGBT thing would kinda throw it off
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:07:24 AM
Quote
The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

Care to explain this, yesh?

Yes, from an EO standpoint, the monastics and their dedication to the faith is an example to Orthodox Christians.   This includes both male monks, and nuns.    This is one reason why people visit monasteries and Mt. Athos.   As a laymen often seeks "success" through wealth, power, etc., a monk finds this a failure.

When people go on a retreat to a monastery, and are stripped out of the world, often they regain and strengthen their faith.

Christ's life on Earth should be an example too to EO Christians.  His example as the monastics didn't want to achieve worldly wealth or power for success.

It is an oddball antithesis between the EO laymen and the monastics on "world vision".

But their dedication to a spiritual life should be an example.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:08:20 AM
You know, we could just switch to women on one side of the church, and men on the other side with a gigantic wall inbetween. ;)

We don't have the wall, but we do everything else. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:08:30 AM
You know, we could just switch to women on one side of the church, and men on the other side with a gigantic wall inbetween. ;)

Yeah but then the LGBT thing would kinda throw it off

You know that in many EO churches, women are on one side and men on the other.

The LGBT, namely the T.... I guess they stand in the middle? :-\
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:09:16 AM
And no one has dealt with my observations/questions relating to prisons and internet dating.

What the heck? I'll play.

Yeah, you can be aroused just from talking to someone without even seeing them, occasionally not even hearing them.

When I lived in the Central Valley for Freshman year back in 2010, I was away from all my friends and only kept up with them via text and phone. I still felt very aroused and distracted when that certain someone would text me. It becomes a habit.

I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  But what you are aroused by is a fantasy in this case, not reality.

True but it's still lust and therefore sinful in either case.

Hentei or whatever it's called is technically fantasy but it's still something people commit lust in the heart over.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:09:34 AM
Quote
The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

Care to explain this, yesh?

Yes, from an EO standpoint, the monastics and their dedication to the faith is an example to Orthodox Christians.   This includes both male monks, and nuns.    This is one reason why people visit monasteries and Mt. Athos.   As a laymen often seeks "success" through wealth, power, etc., a monk finds this a failure.

When people go on a retreat to a monastery, and are stripped out of the world, often they regain and strengthen their faith.

Christ's life on Earth should be an example too to EO Christians.  His example as the monastics didn't want to achieve worldly wealth or power for success.

It is an oddball antithesis between the EO laymen and the monastics on "world vision".

But their dedication to a spiritual life should be an example.

Yet the life of a layman is not inferior to that of a monastic in the eyes of the Church. This is where your analogy fails.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:09:55 AM
I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  

Well, here's the problem...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:11:11 AM
I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  

Well, here's the problem...

I was wondering when Mor was going to show up.  :D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:11:43 AM
So would you deem wearing make-up immodest?

:)

Not immodest, but wrong, and against the writings of some early Christian authors who --- spoke of Roman women who wore their hair broided, with their faces painted with the juices of berries, and their bosoms partially exposed.  



So basically if you consider makeup wrong....are you not perhaps ascribing your opinion of it, to the motive of the wearer?



Indeed.  ::) :P

Unlike a veil, in almost every case, make up is used to draw attention of the flesh.


And does this mean you are also ascribing the issue you have with the looking causing temptation, to other men?

I get and am not arguing with the general idea that men do think of such things more, but honestly, some of the examples posited in this thread are pretty 'out there' in terms of men in church being temped.  Sure it happens....and young men more so, but honestly, you have such little confidence in the rest of your gender to be decent and good people.

Of course I'm ascribing it in "small ways".  Also knowing "we all fall short of the glory of God", and I've been in plenty of "locker room talk" situations.

Men are looking.  I don't think many in the church would admit it, and perhaps they are not.   But it is a weakness I have that I fight.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:12:09 AM
Quote
The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

Care to explain this, yesh?

Yes, from an EO standpoint, the monastics and their dedication to the faith is an example to Orthodox Christians.   This includes both male monks, and nuns.    This is one reason why people visit monasteries and Mt. Athos.   As a laymen often seeks "success" through wealth, power, etc., a monk finds this a failure.

When people go on a retreat to a monastery, and are stripped out of the world, often they regain and strengthen their faith.

Christ's life on Earth should be an example too to EO Christians.  His example as the monastics didn't want to achieve worldly wealth or power for success.

It is an oddball antithesis between the EO laymen and the monastics on "world vision".

But their dedication to a spiritual life should be an example.

Yet the life of a layman is not inferior to that of a monastic in the eyes of the Church. This is where your analogy fails.


Bingo!

They are -an- example, yes.  But not -the- example.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:12:48 AM
I think I am sort of missing the issue. Because simply "noticing" a little skin isn't any bigger deal than noticing a beautiful flower or butterfly while doing something else to my mind.

Distraction is so normal that I just don't understand the pearl clutching. I notice it when someone that shaves their head misses the hair in the crease of skin at the back of their head. It is exceedingly distracting to me when people do this. I want to tackle them, then shave it off, or to walk up and draw eyes to make a face. So in order to prevent me from sinning via distraction, check the back of your heads people!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:15:02 AM
I think I am sort of missing the issue. Because simply "noticing" a little skin isn't any bigger deal than noticing a beautiful flower or butterfly while doing something else to my mind.

Distraction is so normal that I just don't understand the pearl clutching. I notice it when someone that shaves their head misses the hair in the crease of skin at the back of their head. It is exceedingly distracting to me when people do this. I want to tackle them, then shave it off, or to walk up and draw eyes to make a face. So in order to prevent me from sinning via distraction, check the back of your heads people!

Well other than the assault charges possibly pending from you doing so, there is no sin in you being distracted by poor haircare.

I think thats the difference in the case scenario.....Your noticing that does not lead you to lust.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:15:31 AM
I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  

Well, here's the problem...

Well sexual arousal and lust are both of the flesh and are often stimulated between (or singular) of the fleshy senses.   ???

But some people are aroused by some very non sexual stuff which wouldn't fall under the sexual definition of lust.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:15:38 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:16:50 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

 :-* :-*
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:18:32 AM
Was Saint Mary of Egypt sinful if Fr. Zosima was distracted?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:20:20 AM
Quote
The monastics are the EO examples as is Christ.

Care to explain this, yesh?

Yes, from an EO standpoint, the monastics and their dedication to the faith is an example to Orthodox Christians.   This includes both male monks, and nuns.    This is one reason why people visit monasteries and Mt. Athos.   As a laymen often seeks "success" through wealth, power, etc., a monk finds this a failure.

When people go on a retreat to a monastery, and are stripped out of the world, often they regain and strengthen their faith.

Christ's life on Earth should be an example too to EO Christians.  His example as the monastics didn't want to achieve worldly wealth or power for success.

It is an oddball antithesis between the EO laymen and the monastics on "world vision".

But their dedication to a spiritual life should be an example.

Yet the life of a layman is not inferior to that of a monastic in the eyes of the Church. This is where your analogy fails.

This is very true not inferior.

But they are good examples.  They think deeply about worldly issues and consider the depths of sin.  Our scriptures tell us that "the children of the world are wicked", and "be not of this world".   The monastic life is very much like this.  They are good examples.

Ask any nun the importance of modesty, you may be surprised what you hear.  Ask her about a woman's veil and if she should wear it to be an accessory to her beauty...

Monastics know some pretty deep stuff.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:21:16 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

Takes this as a reminder to wear the non lacing shoes when visiting parishes around WA, just in case...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:22:33 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

 :-* :-*

These objects and the way they are done were never cited as sin.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 12:23:17 AM
I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  

Well, here's the problem...

I was wondering when Mor was going to show up.  :D

Now it's a party. :P

But really, +1 to what he said.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:23:45 AM
My kids are my ultimate distraction during liturgy. They are constantly kissing me, and each other. And they look so cute when they cross themselves....and and and....I think if I had been born later than I was, I would have been diagnosed ADD/ADHD. I can multi-task like anything. Having a singular focus is very, very, hard for me. Look! Something shiny! ---------->
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:24:05 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

 :-* :-*

These objects and the way they are done were never cited as sin.  

They are still distractions, to those who are distracted by them.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:24:20 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

Takes this as a reminder to wear the non lacing shoes when visiting parishes around WA, just in case...

Heh, well they are comparing points of simple objects to people and what may distract them.

My point is when somebody tries to distract another with their looks, that is their sin.
If somebody buys into that and lusts, that is the lustee's sin.  (lustee? - LOL)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:25:11 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

 :-* :-*

These objects and the way they are done were never cited as sin.  

But if these people knowingly shave their heads poorly, and tie their shoes asymmetrically, they are knowingly causing me to sin! Or maybe they are just doing their best, and I need to learn to focus more.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:25:43 AM
Ask any nun the importance of modesty anything important, you may be surprised what you hear.  

Fixed.  Nuns are awesome.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:27:00 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

 :-* :-*

These objects and the way they are done were never cited as sin.  

But if these people knowingly shave their heads poorly, and tie their shoes asymmetrically, they are knowingly causing me to sin! Or maybe they are just doing their best, and I need to learn to focus more.

If they knowingly shave their heads (or tying shoes) WANTING somebody to be distracted in church (that is where we are talking right), then yes, I'd call that a sin of that person.

EDIT - and a woman wanting a man to look at her and be distracted, that would be her sin.  And the man falls into lust, that would be his sin.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:27:20 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

Takes this as a reminder to wear the non lacing shoes when visiting parishes around WA, just in case...

Heh, well they are comparing points of simple objects to people and what may distract them.

My point is when somebody tries to distract another with their looks, that is their sin.
If somebody buys into that and lusts, that is the lustee's sin.  (lustee? - LOL)


but thats not your only point.....

Your corollary is that makeup and other feminine wiles are wrong, and thus pretty much -only- used to distract another.


And pardon me....but that just pushes the 'blame' onto the female half of the population....how DARE they try to tempt you like that....;)


News flash...it ain't all about you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 12:28:16 AM
I don't agree that distraction = sin, to be honest.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:28:54 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

 :-* :-*

These objects and the way they are done were never cited as sin.  

But if these people knowingly shave their heads poorly, and tie their shoes asymmetrically, they are knowingly causing me to sin! Or maybe they are just doing their best, and I need to learn to focus more.

If they knowingly shave their heads (or tying shoes) WANTING somebody to be distracted in church (that is where we are talking right), then yes, I'd call that a sin of that person.

So what makes you think that women dress to distract? I personally wear whatever I do to church based upon what is clean/presentable/matching. I have actually worn flip-flops during late pregnancy because I can't reach my feet. Hopefully my toes didn't make any foot fetishists fall.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:29:02 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

Takes this as a reminder to wear the non lacing shoes when visiting parishes around WA, just in case...

Heh, well they are comparing points of simple objects to people and what may distract them.

My point is when somebody tries to distract another with their looks, that is their sin.
If somebody buys into that and lusts, that is the lustee's sin.  (lustee? - LOL)

But you still fail to accept that you simply cannot know the intent of another. You're still trying to deflect blame for your pathology onto the person who you regard as inciting your "failing", whether that was their intention or not.

If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:29:51 AM
I don't agree that distraction = sin, to be honest.

I'm with you, I am just taking this along the road of logical progression in my view.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:30:17 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

Takes this as a reminder to wear the non lacing shoes when visiting parishes around WA, just in case...

Heh, well they are comparing points of simple objects to people and what may distract them.

My point is when somebody tries to distract another with their looks, that is their sin.
If somebody buys into that and lusts, that is the lustee's sin.  (lustee? - LOL)


but thats not your only point.....

Your corollary is that makeup and other feminine wiles are wrong, and thus pretty much -only- used to distract another.


And pardon me....but that just pushes the 'blame' onto the female half of the population....how DARE they try to tempt you like that....;)


News flash...it ain't all about you.

Of course its not about me.

I'm not blaming the female population either, men should not lust. ?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:32:22 AM
Well sexual arousal and lust are both of the flesh and are often stimulated between (or singular) of the fleshy senses.   ???

But some people are aroused by some very non sexual stuff which wouldn't fall under the sexual definition of lust.

YiM,

There's a difference between lust and arousal.  You could argue that there is some "overlap", but there absolutely is a difference between the two.  The inability to discern this difference is a serious problem because it leads to distortions in our understanding of love, the human person, sex, marriage, sin, ascetic struggle, modesty, and a host of other matters.  It may even warp your understanding of God.    
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:32:56 AM
Quote
I'm not blaming the female population either,

WHAT?? So what on earth have you been doing over six pages of thread, Yesh?? Playing hopscotch?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:36:20 AM
I also sin via distraction when tiles aren't arranged properly, or when people have their shoelaces tied asymmetrically. But can I fault those people for being the distraction? Or do I fault myself for being distracted?

Takes this as a reminder to wear the non lacing shoes when visiting parishes around WA, just in case...

Heh, well they are comparing points of simple objects to people and what may distract them.

My point is when somebody tries to distract another with their looks, that is their sin.
If somebody buys into that and lusts, that is the lustee's sin.  (lustee? - LOL)

But you still fail to accept that you simply cannot know the intent of another. You're still trying to deflect blame for your pathology onto the person who you regard as inciting your "failing", whether that was their intention or not.

If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

Okay.

There is a lady named Sally.

Sally puts on a thong because she wants men to look at her and "want her".
She goes to the beach with full intent for men to look at her.
Men look at her and lust.

Sally sinned because she wanted others to lust after her.
The men sinned because they looked at her and lusted.


Suzie comes to church with some see through lace covering her cleavage knowing that men will look at her and lust after her.  
The men try but still glance and lust.

Suzie sinned for wanting men to lust after her.
The men sinned because they lusted after her.


You are implying that me as a man "thinks" this woman's intent is to get me to lust after her.  That's not what I'm saying at all.


I'm saying that if a woman WANTS men to lust for her and uses a veil as an accessory of fashion to gain that goal, then she sins.
If the man ends up lusting for her, then HE sins.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:36:54 AM
I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  

Well, here's the problem...

I was wondering when Mor was going to show up.  :D

Now it's a party. :P

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnvx3Bn4Eu_wUpQimnhLVpwIOOuJGZdg1A6YyMy-RfW5EUMtmb)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:37:25 AM
Quote
I'm not blaming the female population either,

WHAT?? So what on earth have you been doing over six pages of thread, Yesh?? Playing hopscotch?

^^ Read above.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:39:21 AM
^^ Read above.

I agree, I think we could all use a drink.  ;)

Too bad it's Saturday night...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:39:53 AM
The problem is that over and over you assert that *all* women wear make-up to get the attention of men, they don't. You also assert that anything short of monastic apparel is dressing for the attention of men, which again is not true.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:40:43 AM
Why are none of your examples ever:


Anya goes to church, dressed nicely, because others will question her if she doesn't dress her best for God.
She has some makeup on, to even her blotchy skin, and to make her look a bit more awake. No lipstick because the deacon will get after anyone who kisses icons with lipstick.

In the process of doing a bow, her skirt pulls tight.

Someone gets distracted by this, despite the fact that once she stands up, her skirt is loose and modest.



I find it -very- telling that ALL of your examples feature the woman doing something wrong first....if its really just about men lusting after anything...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:40:58 AM
Quote
If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

What is your answer to this, yesh? You keep ignoring it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:41:45 AM
I don't know if there is a difference between arousal and lust.  

Well, here's the problem...

I was wondering when Mor was going to show up.  :D

Now it's a party. :P

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnvx3Bn4Eu_wUpQimnhLVpwIOOuJGZdg1A6YyMy-RfW5EUMtmb)

Oh, Mor, you disappoint me. Bacardi??  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:42:30 AM
Well sexual arousal and lust are both of the flesh and are often stimulated between (or singular) of the fleshy senses.   ???

But some people are aroused by some very non sexual stuff which wouldn't fall under the sexual definition of lust.

YiM,

There's a difference between lust and arousal.  You could argue that there is some "overlap", but there absolutely is a difference between the two.  The inability to discern this difference is a serious problem because it leads to distortions in our understanding of love, the human person, sex, marriage, sin, ascetic struggle, modesty, and a host of other matters.  It may even warp your understanding of God.    

It's the overlap for sure.  Probably just speaking in definition.   Porn = lust, arousal = aroused by spouse but both can be lust and arousal.  I agree there is a difference in ways, but overlapping as well.   There are EO writings on this, and it may have been covered some earlier in the thread.  (babies born in lust, etc.).   I say "don't know" tongue and cheek.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:43:17 AM
I think all the women you use an example of being inappropriate are dressed just fine.


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pRBh2MaPdqM/UCQngXx_UfI/AAAAAAAAYUA/1Prenu8HAE4/s1600/ksenia2.jpg)

For me this would represent young women dressed fairly conservatively.  The one on the left and center seem to be attempting modesty.  The one on the right, covers her head and neck, but leaves a low cut shirt exposed.   Does this make sense?   The other two however, appear to have rather tight clothing, would this cause distraction to any other guys here?   The color of head covering can even cause distraction.   Would these girls compete with head coverings, clothes, etc., with their sisters in Christ?  Do they want to stand out?

Next:
(http://www.templestudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Orthodox-pilgrim.jpg)

Would this outfit cause you distraction men?  Semi-tight and see through holes on the sleeves?  Though conservative, there is a lot of neck showing.  NO not low cut.  But would it cause you to be distracted in church?

Next:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7kcjb9Pto1qda55jo1_500.jpg)
Would this nun cause you to fall like any of the others?  She is younger, yet her garments would remind me of her place.  She isn't in stylish clothes for distraction and modestly dressed.   Even if you began to slightly fall and just her face causes you to lust, would you not get a "spiritual smack" upside the head by her garments?  She's not competing with her sisters either in clothes.  She's not trying to stand out either.


Next:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yNjywnTGNkY/TxErvMqM4UI/AAAAAAAAA7E/Ig6mn---UBs/s1600/black+veil+tagged.jpg)
Is a black lace veil that matches an outfit and worn this way being used to "enhance" her beauty?  Note the "bling" on the veil, and that it matches the lace on the low cut bust area.  Would this be distracting for you men?  Women do you see this as a submission to God and for modesty, or to give an accessory to an outfit?  (Not judging to young lady, I respect she even covers)


All I can observe from all of this is that if a standard head covering and conservative clothing (similar to nun), that much distraction and competition can occur.

These are some of the arguments I've made in the past on the way Mennonites dress, as it is not for self gain, is not worldly, is not fashionable.  However, most grow to be "family women".
(http://netcookingtalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16080&d=1345356580)

Old order Orthodox are fairly similar.   THERE WERE NOT ANY GOOD PHOTO EXAMPLES.  This is the best I could find.
(http://theinnerkingdom.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/file_2_3_164.jpg)

The way they wear their veils is not for self gain.  The dress seems plain enough.

I do not judge these women.  I believe they are trying.  But I do not think that many women understand how much they can make a brother fall, even if in small ways.  I absolutely can't believe the bikini girls next to the bishops though DURING services (probably Theophany).  I'll spare you those photos.  Every man in that church was probably falling, including the clergy.

So that's my opinion on the matter.  I believe women should consider that men fall on very little things and also that the scriptures AND in most of the tradition of the EO church is about covering and modesty.




Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 12:46:03 AM
I don't agree that distraction = sin, to be honest.

Sin is broken communion with God and neighbor. So distraction is sin.  

Pretty much everything is sin, so just go with x is sinful, if you are unsure.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:48:57 AM
Quote
If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

What is your answer to this, yesh? You keep ignoring it.

"Sets me off" was their words.  

Which saint was it that said that our sins are greater than all the sands of the ocean and stars of the sky?  Of course this is impossible, but we do have a lot of sins.

See this thread has turned into:

I say = Small glances, small sins, falls into lust & corrects quickly
Most see = Sets you off, heart beating out of chest, sweat pouring out, staring, etc.

"He that looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".  

There is a man who said that line above.  One that SHOULD be worshiped in Eastern Orthodoxy, or at least the Eastern Orthodox church I was a part of at one time.

If we consider a sneak peak at cleavage to be nothing, then we need to consider why we looked.  It was because we lusted for that sneak peak.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 12:56:03 AM
Oh, Mor, you disappoint me. Bacardi??  :P

We have a history.  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 12:56:19 AM
I think all the women you use an example of being inappropriate are dressed just fine.

I think you need to re-read what I posted, you are demonizing what I said totally.  I said that "It is my weakness" and I do not judge them.  I was hoping to make some women aware at how easily weak men like myself can fall.

Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis, LGBT, and masturbation.

I was hoping to shed light on my struggle, and the fact that many men may struggle with the same thing.

If a woman however INTENDS to draw attention to herself (to cause lust) for a man, then she is also guilty of causing one to fall.

Women most often KNOW how to dress in attractive manners that will draw attraction.  It is not for me to judge their intent but to recognize my own weakness.

All I was trying to do was shed light on the subject.  

So should a woman dress in a quilt because of me?  No.  
Should a sister in Christ be concerned for weak brothers?  I hope so.



Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:56:31 AM
Here are your words, as posted in reply #187 on page 5:
Quote
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

What on earth are you doing, noticing things like this? I'll say it again: You need help, yesh. Lots of it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 12:56:59 AM
Quote
If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

What is your answer to this, yesh? You keep ignoring it.

"Sets me off" was their words.  

Which saint was it that said that our sins are greater than all the sands of the ocean and stars of the sky?  Of course this is impossible, but we do have a lot of sins.

See this thread has turned into:

I say = Small glances, small sins, falls into lust & corrects quickly
Most see = Sets you off, heart beating out of chest, sweat pouring out, staring, etc.

"He that looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".  

There is a man who said that line above.  One that SHOULD be worshiped in Eastern Orthodoxy, or at least the Eastern Orthodox church I was a part of at one time.

If we consider a sneak peak at cleavage to be nothing, then we need to consider why we looked.  It was because we lusted for that sneak peak.

Maybe because not every single man is seeing things as the same 'sneak peek' that you are.  Maybe they just see their friend's sister, who is late for church and he then smiles at her when she looks around embarrassed to be late, without registering that her blouse isn't a turtleneck.

I find it interesting that you admit you have a problem in this area....but you can't  then take it to the logical step that

'Perhaps almost none of these women are intending or out to tempt me, since I know I have this issue'
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 12:58:22 AM
Quote
Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis,

Ahem. It was you, yesh, who brought up the matter of women in bikinis at Theophany celebrations, complete with links to pictures.  

Spare us your hypocrisy. >:(
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 12:58:34 AM
Could you explain why it is OK in your view that the Mennonite women aren't covering their necks, but it is a bad thing when the non-Mennonites do it? The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:00:12 AM
Why are none of your examples ever:


Anya goes to church, dressed nicely, because others will question her if she doesn't dress her best for God.
She has some makeup on, to even her blotchy skin, and to make her look a bit more awake. No lipstick because the deacon will get after anyone who kisses icons with lipstick.

In the process of doing a bow, her skirt pulls tight.

Someone gets distracted by this, despite the fact that once she stands up, her skirt is loose and modest.
I find it -very- telling that ALL of your examples feature the woman doing something wrong first....if its really just about men lusting after anything...

Because what did Anya really do wrong if a man looked at her when she didn't intend on causing lust?  

There are many women that don't try to draw attention to themselves or cause man to lust for her and get lusted after anyway.  That's not her fault.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:01:26 AM
Quote
Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis,

Ahem. It was you, yesh, who brought up the matter of women in bikinis at Theophany celebrations, complete with links to pictures.  

Spare us your hypocrisy. >:(

I spared the pictures until requested by Mor, and linked by Maria.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:02:34 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree! 

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:02:54 AM
Quote
Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis,

Ahem. It was you, yesh, who brought up the matter of women in bikinis at Theophany celebrations, complete with links to pictures.  

Spare us your hypocrisy. >:(

I spared the pictures until requested by Mor, and linked by Maria.

You were still the one who first raised the matter. You can't wriggle your way out of it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:03:01 AM
Quote
If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

What is your answer to this, yesh? You keep ignoring it.

"Sets me off" was their words.  

Which saint was it that said that our sins are greater than all the sands of the ocean and stars of the sky?  Of course this is impossible, but we do have a lot of sins.

See this thread has turned into:

I say = Small glances, small sins, falls into lust & corrects quickly
Most see = Sets you off, heart beating out of chest, sweat pouring out, staring, etc.

"He that looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".  

There is a man who said that line above.  One that SHOULD be worshiped in Eastern Orthodoxy, or at least the Eastern Orthodox church I was a part of at one time.

If we consider a sneak peak at cleavage to be nothing, then we need to consider why we looked.  It was because we lusted for that sneak peak.

Maybe because not every single man is seeing things as the same 'sneak peek' that you are.  Maybe they just see their friend's sister, who is late for church and he then smiles at her when she looks around embarrassed to be late, without registering that her blouse isn't a turtleneck.

I find it interesting that you admit you have a problem in this area....but you can't  then take it to the logical step that

'Perhaps almost none of these women are intending or out to tempt me, since I know I have this issue'

It's my weakness.

I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:03:45 AM
Quote
Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis,

Ahem. It was you, yesh, who brought up the matter of women in bikinis at Theophany celebrations, complete with links to pictures.  

Spare us your hypocrisy. >:(

I spared the pictures until requested by Mor, and linked by Maria.

You were still the one who first raised the matter. You can't wriggle your way out of it.

Actually I can.

I said it was a spinoff of the Faith issues thread to begin with, and started with a quote from there. :P  bikinis mentioned there.

Yes, it's a wriggle.  LOL
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 01:05:54 AM
Quote
If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

What is your answer to this, yesh? You keep ignoring it.

"Sets me off" was their words.  

Which saint was it that said that our sins are greater than all the sands of the ocean and stars of the sky?  Of course this is impossible, but we do have a lot of sins.

See this thread has turned into:

I say = Small glances, small sins, falls into lust & corrects quickly
Most see = Sets you off, heart beating out of chest, sweat pouring out, staring, etc.

"He that looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".  

There is a man who said that line above.  One that SHOULD be worshiped in Eastern Orthodoxy, or at least the Eastern Orthodox church I was a part of at one time.

If we consider a sneak peak at cleavage to be nothing, then we need to consider why we looked.  It was because we lusted for that sneak peak.

Maybe because not every single man is seeing things as the same 'sneak peek' that you are.  Maybe they just see their friend's sister, who is late for church and he then smiles at her when she looks around embarrassed to be late, without registering that her blouse isn't a turtleneck.

I find it interesting that you admit you have a problem in this area....but you can't  then take it to the logical step that

'Perhaps almost none of these women are intending or out to tempt me, since I know I have this issue'

It's my weakness.

I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

Now now...I never said that.  You are assuming that I mean to imply that. 

My point is that is that if it 'your weakness', then quit giving examples of all the ways the women are 'drawing attention' and instead just admit that no matter what they do, your attention is drawn.

You admit this 'weakness' and then proceed to shift a good portion of the blame onto others.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:06:12 AM
Here are your words, as posted in reply #187 on page 5:
Quote
You catch yourself looking and being physically attracted and stop.  
You notice some back flesh under the buttons on her dress -----get back to focus.
Fast glances that "just happen".

What on earth are you doing, noticing things like this? I'll say it again: You need help, yesh. Lots of it.

*BUMP*
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:06:41 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)

But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:08:19 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)

But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

Seconded. And no skin of any sort showing, not even hands. Crossing oneself would need to be done under the bag, so as not to inflame the passions.  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:08:33 AM
I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

YiM,  

There are women who do this, and women who don't.  There are men who do this, and men who don't.  But how do you judge the intent of someone's heart based purely on observing their exterior with your eyes and your heart?  Why isn't it better to presume that others are better than you?  Your much-boasted "EO monastics" would tell you this before ever getting into the nitty-gritty of fabric and buttons.    
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:08:51 AM
Quote
If the glimpse of "back skin under the buttons of a dress" sets you off, then God help you. Truly, God help you, because no-one else will.

What is your answer to this, yesh? You keep ignoring it.

"Sets me off" was their words.  

Which saint was it that said that our sins are greater than all the sands of the ocean and stars of the sky?  Of course this is impossible, but we do have a lot of sins.

See this thread has turned into:

I say = Small glances, small sins, falls into lust & corrects quickly
Most see = Sets you off, heart beating out of chest, sweat pouring out, staring, etc.

"He that looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".  

There is a man who said that line above.  One that SHOULD be worshiped in Eastern Orthodoxy, or at least the Eastern Orthodox church I was a part of at one time.

If we consider a sneak peak at cleavage to be nothing, then we need to consider why we looked.  It was because we lusted for that sneak peak.

Maybe because not every single man is seeing things as the same 'sneak peek' that you are.  Maybe they just see their friend's sister, who is late for church and he then smiles at her when she looks around embarrassed to be late, without registering that her blouse isn't a turtleneck.

I find it interesting that you admit you have a problem in this area....but you can't  then take it to the logical step that

'Perhaps almost none of these women are intending or out to tempt me, since I know I have this issue'

It's my weakness.

I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

Now now...I never said that.  You are assuming that I mean to imply that. 

My point is that is that if it 'your weakness', then quit giving examples of all the ways the women are 'drawing attention' and instead just admit that no matter what they do, your attention is drawn.

You admit this 'weakness' and then proceed to shift a good portion of the blame onto others.



No I was baited into that.

It is my weakness on how I would see these women, except for the nun.

I hope this helps you see how some men may look at women.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 01:10:07 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)

But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

Seconded. And no skin of any sort showing, not even hands. Crossing oneself would need to be done under the bag, so as not to inflame the passions.  :P

But think of the time saved on dressing for Liturgy....this -could- have the positive side effect of making people a bit earlier....some might even arrive for the Gospel reading!!!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:10:42 AM
Quote
No I was baited into that.

Ever heard of "responsibility for your own actions"?  >:(
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:10:50 AM
But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

I picked that photo because even the bags looked dispassionately grumpy.  There is some really good hesychia going on under those bags.  Trust me.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:11:19 AM
I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

YiM,  

There are women who do this, and women who don't.  There are men who do this, and men who don't.  But how do you judge the intent of someone's heart based purely on observing their exterior with your eyes and your heart?  Why isn't it better to presume that others are better than you?  Your much-boasted "EO monastics" would tell you this before ever getting into the nitty-gritty of fabric and buttons.    

You don't judge their intent at all.  That's exactly why in my OP I said "I'm not judging these women, it is my own weakness".

I'm hoping other women will see how weak some men are.   I'm not advocating a mandate or anything. It's my weakness all together.  I hope that sisters in Christ will realize how weak some men are and take that into consideration of their dress.

 Of course threads digress into all the other mumbo jumbo.  :P
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:12:07 AM
But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

I picked that photo because even the bags looked dispassionately grumpy.  There is some really good hesychia going on under those bags.  Trust me.  

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: (help! was all that laughter a sign of passion?)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:12:36 AM
Of course, we'd need to have some sort of double bagging going on in case one rips. And we would need a dress code underneath too.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 01:13:15 AM
Yesh- if the entire point of this thread was for you to say "Some ladies intend to dress in a way to provoke men's lust", then I think you went about it terribly. If you had said, "It doesn't take a lot for me to notice, and it's something that I'm working on." I bet no one would have batted an eye. Your OP was extremely critical of modest women, which really gives your whole thread the tone that it is the responsibility of women to dress in burqas lest any man stumble even in "small ways". If this was not your intent, then you didn't communicate it very effectively. It's not fair to say "Typical OC.net" when literally everyone on this thread is apparently misunderstanding you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 01:14:15 AM
I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

YiM,  

There are women who do this, and women who don't.  There are men who do this, and men who don't.  But how do you judge the intent of someone's heart based purely on observing their exterior with your eyes and your heart?  Why isn't it better to presume that others are better than you?  Your much-boasted "EO monastics" would tell you this before ever getting into the nitty-gritty of fabric and buttons.    

You don't judge their intent at all.  That's exactly why in my OP I said "I'm not judging these women, it is my own weakness".

I'm hoping other women will see how weak some men are.   I'm not advocating a mandate or anything. It's my weakness all together.  I hope that sisters in Christ will realize how weak some men are and take that into consideration of their dress.

 Of course threads digress into all the other mumbo jumbo.  :P



'I'm not judging, but I think makeup is wrong'

'I'm not judging but look at all those holes in the lacy sleeves!'


Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:15:34 AM
I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

YiM,  

There are women who do this, and women who don't.  There are men who do this, and men who don't.  But how do you judge the intent of someone's heart based purely on observing their exterior with your eyes and your heart?  Why isn't it better to presume that others are better than you?  Your much-boasted "EO monastics" would tell you this before ever getting into the nitty-gritty of fabric and buttons.    

You don't judge their intent at all.  That's exactly why in my OP I said "I'm not judging these women, it is my own weakness".

I'm hoping other women will see how weak some men are.   I'm not advocating a mandate or anything. It's my weakness all together.  I hope that sisters in Christ will realize how weak some men are and take that into consideration of their dress.

 Of course threads digress into all the other mumbo jumbo.  :P

Nonsense. Throughout this thread you've gone on about knowing the intent of women in how they dress, and you have made no attempt to show any inclination to overcome your "weakness", instead, dumping that responsibility at the feet of the women who "cause" your "failing".

Sorry, it won't wash.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:15:48 AM
You don't judge their intent at all.  That's exactly why in my OP I said "I'm not judging these women, it is my own weakness".

I'm hoping other women will see how weak some men are.   I'm not advocating a mandate or anything. It's my weakness all together.  I hope that sisters in Christ will realize how weak some men are and take that into consideration of their dress.

You could've talked about your own weakness without posting photos of random girls and explaining in painstaking detail how they all were (un)intentionally finding ways of turning you on.  There's a difference between admitting your weakness and putting it on display for all the world to see while you wallow in its filth.  

I'm not judging.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:17:39 AM
I find it's interesting that you don't believe women try to draw attention to themselves either, even at church.

YiM,  

There are women who do this, and women who don't.  There are men who do this, and men who don't.  But how do you judge the intent of someone's heart based purely on observing their exterior with your eyes and your heart?  Why isn't it better to presume that others are better than you?  Your much-boasted "EO monastics" would tell you this before ever getting into the nitty-gritty of fabric and buttons.    

You don't judge their intent at all.  That's exactly why in my OP I said "I'm not judging these women, it is my own weakness".

I'm hoping other women will see how weak some men are.   I'm not advocating a mandate or anything. It's my weakness all together.  I hope that sisters in Christ will realize how weak some men are and take that into consideration of their dress.

 Of course threads digress into all the other mumbo jumbo.  :P


I used to attend beauty school with a woman that worked in a local mental hospital. She cared for a patient literally got drunk off water, and had a compulsion to drink water wherever she could get it. Her temptation to drink water was so strong, that she had to have her access to water limited, and was committed to the asylum. But I don't think all people should bear in mind how tempted that ONE person is by water.

You are posting about tiny holes in sleeves, glimpses of skin under buttons, and seeing neck skin. You are losing most people on this issue.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:17:45 AM
Quote
No I was baited into that.

Ever heard of "responsibility for your own actions"?  >:(

Yes.  

But let's see:
http://www.stnektariosmonastery.org/visitinghours.php (http://www.stnektariosmonastery.org/visitinghours.php)

Monastery Dress code:

Visitors must be dressed modestly.
Women must wear long skirts, long-sleeved blouses, and cover their head with a scarf.
Pants, mini-skirts, skin-tight clothing, short sleeves, and low-cut blouses
are unacceptable.
Men must wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts.
Shoes or sandals must be worn with socks at all times - no bare feet permitted.
Orthodox Clergy must wear a Cassock (raso) while at the Monastery.

Okay and there is a specific dress code citing MODESTY first.

So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 01:20:22 AM
Quote
No I was baited into that.

Ever heard of "responsibility for your own actions"?  >:(

Yes.  

But let's see:
http://www.stnektariosmonastery.org/visitinghours.php (http://www.stnektariosmonastery.org/visitinghours.php)

Monastery Dress code:

Visitors must be dressed modestly.
Women must wear long skirts, long-sleeved blouses, and cover their head with a scarf.
Pants, mini-skirts, skin-tight clothing, short sleeves, and low-cut blouses
are unacceptable.
Men must wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts.
Shoes or sandals must be worn with socks at all times - no bare feet permitted.
Orthodox Clergy must wear a Cassock (raso) while at the Monastery.

Okay and there is a specific dress code citing MODESTY first.

So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

well except for the fact that pretty much every single one of the pictures you posted WOULD be allowed into in, per those rules....

No one has ever said we shouldn't dress modestly....you keep trying to change your argument back to the 'but they are not dressing how they should'

Quit blaming the 'victims' of your lust issue......

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:20:43 AM
You don't judge their intent at all.  That's exactly why in my OP I said "I'm not judging these women, it is my own weakness".

I'm hoping other women will see how weak some men are.   I'm not advocating a mandate or anything. It's my weakness all together.  I hope that sisters in Christ will realize how weak some men are and take that into consideration of their dress.

You could've talked about your own weakness without posting photos of random girls and explaining in painstaking detail how they all were (un)intentionally finding ways of turning you on.  There's a difference between admitting your weakness and putting it on display for all the world to see while you wallow in its filth.  

I'm not judging.  

The world to see... The world doesn't care.  

And if you understood even a concept of ancient Christianity at all, confessing to one another, even in specific detail was a part of it.

Thank you for not judging.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:20:49 AM
That shirt on the woman wearing white, and the three girls with candles you claim are showing too much skin? They are dressed PRECISELY as my daughter's godmother was dressed when she attended boarding school at a monastery.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:22:12 AM
Quote
No I was baited into that.

Ever heard of "responsibility for your own actions"?  >:(

Yes.  

But let's see:
http://www.stnektariosmonastery.org/visitinghours.php (http://www.stnektariosmonastery.org/visitinghours.php)

Monastery Dress code:

Visitors must be dressed modestly.
Women must wear long skirts, long-sleeved blouses, and cover their head with a scarf.
Pants, mini-skirts, skin-tight clothing, short sleeves, and low-cut blouses
are unacceptable.
Men must wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts.
Shoes or sandals must be worn with socks at all times - no bare feet permitted.
Orthodox Clergy must wear a Cassock (raso) while at the Monastery.

Okay and there is a specific dress code citing MODESTY first.

So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

well except for the fact that pretty much every single one of the pictures you posted WOULD be allowed into in, per those rules....

No one has ever said we shouldn't dress modestly....you keep trying to change your argument back to the 'but they are not dressing how they should'

Quit blaming the 'victims' of your lust issue......


Yes, including the ones with skin tight clothes and pants.   ??? ???
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:23:26 AM
That shirt on the woman wearing white, and the three girls with candles you claim are showing too much skin? They are dressed PRECISELY as my daughter's godmother was dressed when she attended boarding school at a monastery.

I hope that weak men like myself did not lust after them, even slightly.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:23:53 AM
If you think those are skin tight clothes, you've never seen the college co-eds in Seattle wearing yoga pants so tight you can almost see the yeast infections growing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:24:24 AM
That shirt on the woman wearing white, and the three girls with candles you claim are showing too much skin? They are dressed PRECISELY as my daughter's godmother was dressed when she attended boarding school at a monastery.

I hope that weak men like myself did not lust after them, even slightly.

I would hope not too since they were all between the ages of 12-17.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:25:28 AM
That shirt on the woman wearing white, and the three girls with candles you claim are showing too much skin? They are dressed PRECISELY as my daughter's godmother was dressed when she attended boarding school at a monastery.

I hope that weak men like myself did not lust after them, even slightly.

So what are you doing about overcoming your "weakness", yesh? Other than blaming the women, that is.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 01:26:00 AM
If you think those are skin tight clothes, you've never seen the college co-eds in Seattle wearing yoga pants so tight you can almost see the yeast infections growing.

 :o :o :o

 :D
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:26:39 AM
If you think those are skin tight clothes, you've never seen the college co-eds in Seattle wearing yoga pants so tight you can almost see the yeast infections growing.

 :o :o :o

 :D

I thought you might appreciate that one ZZ.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 01:27:09 AM
if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:30:11 AM
It has been explained to me that the dress code for the Goldendale Monastery, as well as the AZ monastery my daughter's godmother attended school at is as much for safety/comfort as anything else. In Yakima rattlesnakes are a particular danger during certain seasons. And it is much easier to do prostrations modestly when you wear a long/full skirt.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 01:30:57 AM
if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.

Now, now... Joan of Arc springs to mind.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:32:00 AM
Ethiopians are often barefoot in services, and they are often very covered. So I don't think the rules are just about modesty.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:32:29 AM
And if you understood even a concept of ancient Christianity at all, confessing to one another, even in specific detail was a part of it.

Sure, confess to one another, but confess your own sins.  Confessing the sins of others is called gossip.  If you remained with ancient Christianity instead of leaving it, you might've understood that.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:32:42 AM
Yesh- if the entire point of this thread was for you to say "Some ladies intend to dress in a way to provoke men's lust", then I think you went about it terribly. If you had said, "It doesn't take a lot for me to notice, and it's something that I'm working on." I bet no one would have batted an eye. Your OP was extremely critical of modest women, which really gives your whole thread the tone that it is the responsibility of women to dress in burqas lest any man stumble even in "small ways". If this was not your intent, then you didn't communicate it very effectively. It's not fair to say "Typical OC.net" when literally everyone on this thread is apparently misunderstanding you.

The men on this forum do not lust apparently, not even after the slightest things.  I'm apparently the only one other than 1 other person that admitted it.  Ironically, he has some age apparently as myself.  Perhaps that's why the oldest dropped the stones first when they were told "whoever is without sin let him cast the first stone".  I recognize my own sin.

I was showing women how some men can view how they look and fall into sin.  I admired the nun, and old believers too.  

The issue here is that so many people are worldly and love their worldly fleshy ways that they conclude to respond with hostility towards that which composes their life.  

They want to demonize me as somebody who blames women for my faults.  Which I don't.  All lust is my own fault.  I put it out there if a woman wants to cause a man to lust, she is at fault too.  The rest was completely taken out of context.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 26, 2014, 01:33:48 AM


So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?


Actually, that dress code is about being respectful TO God, in his house.  Not about protection, more about perhaps not being vain and superficial.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:34:58 AM
And if you understood even a concept of ancient Christianity at all, confessing to one another, even in specific detail was a part of it.

Sure, confess to one another, but confess your own sins.  Confessing the sins of others is called gossip.  If you remained with ancient Christianity instead of leaving it, you might've understood that.  

I didn't confess the sins of others.  I named nobody specific.   Your church is NOT ancient Christianity.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 01:35:26 AM
The rules at monasteries say more about monastics than anything else. It's their rule, you know for them.

If they can't deal with women like the paragons of "spirituality" on Mt. Athos, that says nothing about the spiritual danger of women, but rather the weaknesses of those men.

So develop your own further insular world and make up your own rules.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:35:41 AM


So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?


Actually, that dress code is about being respectful TO God, in his house.  Not about protection, more about perhaps not being vain and superficial.



Because God needs a woman in long skirts, not mini skirts.  Keep trying.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 01:37:47 AM


So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?


Actually, that dress code is about being respectful TO God, in his house.  Not about protection, more about perhaps not being vain and superficial.



I don't think so.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:38:20 AM
The rules at monasteries say more about monastics than anything else. It's their rule, you know for them.

If they can't deal with women like the paragons of "spirituality" on Mt. Athos, that says nothing about the spiritual danger of women, but rather the weaknesses of those men.

So develop your own further insular world and make up your own rules.

THAT'S EXACTLY what I am saying.

It's the weakness of ME.

They have those rules to protect their weaknesses.

They know that if a woman is coming in with skin tight clothes they may fall into lust.

If a woman purposely decides to go get some monks lusting after her with skin tight clothes, she sins.  If the monks look, they sin.

So they establish rules and say "no" to that.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 01:38:56 AM
How old do you think those three girls you said are immodest are? Any of those girls could easily be my 12 year old daughter. And I can say with assurance that she is no way interested in being sexy or attractive. She still brings play clothes to change into so she can get dirty and play after service.

My daughter's godmother always dresses very modestly. So much so that when she came to pick up my daughter for a ballet that she was in tears because the dress she was wearing showed more shoulder than she was comfortable with. I lent her a shawl so she could be more comfortable. She was assuredly not trying to attract the attention of anyone else. If the nuns at the monastery didn't have an issue with how she dressed, I don't see why you should be chastising girls like her for trying to get attention.

There was a girl that I attended church with as a teen. She was raised by her grandmother, and grandma wouldn't let her shave her legs, or wear deodorant, and made her dress like a 60 year old widow from the 1940s. Poor girl had to walk around with leg hair and a mustache that would rival Sasquatch's. She wasn't causing anyone to desire her sexually, but she was a BIG distraction.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:39:21 AM
Quote
I put it out there if a woman wants to cause a man to lust, she is at fault too.  The rest was completely taken out of context.

So is the woman whose "back flesh" you saw peeking from under the buttons of her dress at fault? The girl with the white blouse and tiny holes in her sleeves? Is she at fault for making you stumble?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:39:35 AM
The men on this forum do not lust apparently, not even after the slightest things.  I'm apparently the only one other than 1 other person that admitted it.  

Once again, you pretend to know the spiritual condition of others based on your subjective observations of what you see on the exterior.  

I don't think there's a man on here who doesn't struggle with lust in some way.  Not all of us feel the need to describe it in detail with full colour photos and post it on the internet.  I, for example, have a confessor.  

Quote
I admired the nun, and old believers too.  

But you don't admire their icon veneration or their liturgical utensils or much else.  So why admire their clothes unless it fits in with your weird, cultish version of Christianity?  

Quote
The issue here is that so many people are worldly and love their worldly fleshy ways that they conclude to respond with hostility towards that which composes their life.  

What does that mean?

Quote
They want to demonize me as somebody who blames women for my faults.  Which I don't.  All lust is my own fault.  I put it out there if a woman wants to cause a man to lust, she is at fault too.  The rest was completely taken out of context.

Right, it was taken out of the context you created with your text.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:39:42 AM
Ethiopians are often barefoot in services, and they are often very covered. So I don't think the rules are just about modesty.

Different jurisdictions do things different.  I believe in that one they do so because "they are on holy ground", as Moses was told to take of his sandals.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 01:41:37 AM
The men on this forum do not lust apparently, not even after the slightest things.  I'm apparently the only one other than 1 other person that admitted it.  

Once again, you pretend to know the spiritual condition of others based on your subjective observations of what you see on the exterior.  

I don't think there's a man on here who doesn't struggle with lust in some way.  Not all of us feel the need to describe it in detail with full colour photos and post it on the internet.  I, for example, have a confessor.  

Quote
I admired the nun, and old believers too.  

But you don't admire their icon veneration or their liturgical utensils or much else.  So why admire their clothes unless it fits in with your weird, cultish version of Christianity?  

Quote
The issue here is that so many people are worldly and love their worldly fleshy ways that they conclude to respond with hostility towards that which composes their life.  

What does that mean?

Quote
They want to demonize me as somebody who blames women for my faults.  Which I don't.  All lust is my own fault.  I put it out there if a woman wants to cause a man to lust, she is at fault too.  The rest was completely taken out of context.

Right, it was taken out of the context you created with your text.  

Yet again, thank you, Mor.  :-*
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 01:42:40 AM
I think I am sort of missing the issue. Because simply "noticing" a little skin isn't any bigger deal than noticing a beautiful flower or butterfly while doing something else to my mind.

Distraction is so normal that I just don't understand the pearl clutching. I notice it when someone that shaves their head misses the hair in the crease of skin at the back of their head. It is exceedingly distracting to me when people do this. I want to tackle them, then shave it off, or to walk up and draw eyes to make a face. So in order to prevent me from sinning via distraction, check the back of your heads people!

Well other than the assault charges possibly pending from you doing so, there is no sin in you being distracted by poor haircare.

I think thats the difference in the case scenario.....Your noticing that does not lead you to lust.


I beg to disagree. My priest in the OCA, when I was a catechumen, explained that it is a sin to give into a distraction. It is called failing to guard the senses of vision, hearing, taste, smell, and touch. If we struggle and live in the eternal presence always keeping God in our vision, then we do not sin. This guarding of the senses is very difficult and few achieve it, but it is essential for the spiritual life and for avoiding temptation. We must struggle against our passions by guarding our senses until the day we die.

So, there is such a thing as an unknown sin whereby we unknowingly give into a distraction and then forget that we are at the Divine Liturgy. Lord have mercy.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:43:09 AM
I didn't confess the sins of others.  I named nobody specific.   Your church is NOT ancient Christianity.

That's a rather confident declaration coming from someone whose self-described faith is "Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together".  It's like telling someone dining at a fancy restaurant that they're not really eating because they're not dumpster diving with you out back.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 01:45:07 AM
Ethiopians are often barefoot in services, and they are often very covered. So I don't think the rules are just about modesty.

Different jurisdictions do things different.  I believe in that one they do so because "they are on holy ground", as Moses was told to take of his sandals.

Exactly.

In Hawaii, people are expected to take their shoes off when entering the Orthodox Church. It was a new experience for me.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:47:33 AM
The men on this forum do not lust apparently, not even after the slightest things.  I'm apparently the only one other than 1 other person that admitted it.  

Once again, you pretend to know the spiritual condition of others based on your subjective observations of what you see on the exterior.  

I don't think there's a man on here who doesn't struggle with lust in some way.  Not all of us feel the need to describe it in detail with full colour photos and post it on the internet.  I, for example, have a confessor.  

Quote
I admired the nun, and old believers too.  

But you don't admire their icon veneration or their liturgical utensils or much else.  So why admire their clothes unless it fits in with your weird, cultish version of Christianity?  

Quote
The issue here is that so many people are worldly and love their worldly fleshy ways that they conclude to respond with hostility towards that which composes their life.  

What does that mean?

Quote
They want to demonize me as somebody who blames women for my faults.  Which I don't.  All lust is my own fault.  I put it out there if a woman wants to cause a man to lust, she is at fault too.  The rest was completely taken out of context.

Right, it was taken out of the context you created with your text.  

There's a book you should read, called Martyr's Mirror.  It has a lot of details of people that the EO absorbed into their faith who were martyred.   Also a lineage you have probably never heard of traced through people the EO claim as saints, who were nothing like EO Christians.  You may also learn something about the overall Catholic Church, especially the Roman Catholic church.

Meanwhile, those nuns DO venerate icons which was never part of Early Christianity at all, amongst many other things, which I disagree with.  The reason I can disagree with this is because it was written in the BIBLE to not make images in the likeness of anything in heaven.  This is what God commanded of you.  He also commanded you to Remember the Sabbath day (of rest), which St. Constantine changed to the "venerable day of the sun".

I think we have been over this time and time again.  This isn't the issue here.  I give credence to those women who follow a strong biblical example and love & courtesy for their brothers in Christ.

I'm citing a spiritual weakness I have with lust (even in small ways).  The monks of the EO monastery (and many other monasteries than this one) also perhaps have the same struggle.


BTW sorry everybody if I don't get to all the post, I reply and it says 8 new replies. Can't keep up.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 01:50:25 AM
Can't keep up.

And yet this whole thread seemed to be predicated on the fact that you always are.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 01:51:23 AM
How old do you think those three girls you said are immodest are? Any of those girls could easily be my 12 year old daughter. And I can say with assurance that she is no way interested in being sexy or attractive. She still brings play clothes to change into so she can get dirty and play after service.

My daughter's godmother always dresses very modestly. So much so that when she came to pick up my daughter for a ballet that she was in tears because the dress she was wearing showed more shoulder than she was comfortable with. I lent her a shawl so she could be more comfortable. She was assuredly not trying to attract the attention of anyone else. If the nuns at the monastery didn't have an issue with how she dressed, I don't see why you should be chastising girls like her for trying to get attention.

There was a girl that I attended church with as a teen. She was raised by her grandmother, and grandma wouldn't let her shave her legs, or wear deodorant, and made her dress like a 60 year old widow from the 1940s. Poor girl had to walk around with leg hair and a mustache that would rival Sasquatch's. She wasn't causing anyone to desire her sexually, but she was a BIG distraction.

Lord have mercy. There are some nuns who have a lot of facial hair above their upper lips and around their chins. Apparently, they must let it grow. That can be very embarrassing.

I saw a picture of a nun in procession in Greece during Theophany, and she had her wimple (or whatever you call the fabric that covers the ears and chin), anyway, she had pulled that wimple over her lips, so that her nose was covered too. She looked like a Muslim. It seemed like she was trying to cover her mustache.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 01:53:17 AM
Can't keep up.

And yet this whole thread seemed to be predicated on the fact that you always are.

LOL! That was quick.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 01:53:37 AM
I didn't confess the sins of others.  I named nobody specific.   Your church is NOT ancient Christianity.

That's a rather confident declaration coming from someone whose self-described faith is "Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together".  It's like telling someone dining at a fancy restaurant that they're not really eating because they're not dumpster diving with you out back.  


It's more like saying that a lot of messed up things happened, and I seek to root it out rather than my "masters" telling me to worship idols.

I have confidence in the word of God, something your church admires on one hand, and outright disobeys with the next.   Which day is the Sabbath on again, and which day did Constantine change to they day of rest.  Looks like the EO church "FORGOT" the Sabbath day rather than REMEMBER the Sabbath day.

When a church directly breaks the commandment of God, and Revelation cites to "Remember the patience of the Saints that keep the Commandments", I cannot give credence to that church.

I'm not saying all is dishonorable in Orthodoxy at all.  I love most of it.  Unfortunately it comes as "all or none", and I refuse to bow to an image or call a bishop master.   I'll gladly sing the psalms with you any day, but ex-nay on the bowing to icons with you, or venerating them.  That defies God's commandments.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 01:54:07 AM


So if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?


Actually, that dress code is about being respectful TO God, in his house.  Not about protection, more about perhaps not being vain and superficial.



Because God needs a woman in long skirts, not mini skirts.  Keep trying.

Guess what?

Nature is taking care of your request.

Across the USA, we now have the West Nile Virus, and in Florida they have imported those 3/4 inch huge bitting machines called gigantic mosquitoes (I forgot their scientific name), but they really hurt when they bite.

So, authorities have come down on your side, and have urged the public to cover their legs, arms, necklines, and take care when going outside. Dress modestly and you will not get bitten.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:54:19 AM
Can't keep up.

And yet this whole thread seemed to be predicated on the fact that you always are.

 ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 01:54:31 AM
Can't keep up.

And yet this whole thread seemed to be predicated on the fact that you always are.

LOL! That was quick.

That's what . . . forget it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 01:56:57 AM
It's more like saying that a lot of messed up things happened, and I seek to root it out rather than my "masters" telling me to worship idols.

You will excuse me if I don't trust you as an authority on what is messed up and what is not. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 01:59:50 AM
ex-nay

On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin. It's ixnay.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:09:26 AM
On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin.

I spent a good portion of my childhood with cousins who would speak fluent Pig Latin among themselves.  How many of us are out there?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 02:11:31 AM
It's more like saying that a lot of messed up things happened, and I seek to root it out rather than my "masters" telling me to worship idols.

You will excuse me if I don't trust you as an authority on what is messed up and what is not. 

Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

There is absolutely no way out of these two scriptures for the Eastern Orthodox.   Both commanded from God, both defied by the Eastern Orthodox church.  You have images that are bowed to, you call your bishops "master" or "Despota" - Greek for Master.  

So as it turns to my religious preference when I give credence to the Nuns clothing, I admire because they follow the scriptures.

1) No costly array
2) Covered hair
3) Modest Clothing
4) Non worldly-ness

I admire the Old believers too, as their clothing has the same 4 things.

Still though, I am imperfect and was trying to describe small instances of "notice" that I have with certain forms of covering / clothing, that would otherwise be considered modest.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 02:15:30 AM
On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin.

I spent a good portion of my childhood with cousins who would speak fluent Pig Latin among themselves.  How many of us are out there?

I hope for everyone's sake: 2.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:17:17 AM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 02:17:22 AM
ex-nay

On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin. It's ixnay.

You guys....

EX-nay as in EX no more part of will bow with you to images combined with typical ixnay or to nix, but an ex.  Nevermind.   I believe a lot of things are not conveyed well over text.

Probably a lot on this thread is the same way.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:17:51 AM
On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin.

I spent a good portion of my childhood with cousins who would speak fluent Pig Latin among themselves.  How many of us are out there?

I hope for everyone's sake: 2.

Next question: what does this say about me? 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 26, 2014, 02:27:52 AM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Hawkeye on January 26, 2014, 02:39:52 AM
1) No costly array
2) Covered hair
3) Modest Clothing
4) Non worldly-ness

I admire the Old believers too, as their clothing has the same 4 things.

1) Trust me, it can be plenty costly.
2) If you mean in Church then sure, but otherwise, only the married cover their hair.
3) It covers most but stands out like a sore thumb.
4) In terms of clothing, what does non-worldliness mean exactly?

Honestly, the most I can give you is 2/4.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 02:40:53 AM
Quote
I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  

You still have shown no interest in overcoming your "weakness", other than to prevail upon women to conform to a state of "modesty" which is practically monastic. You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself. If a glimpse of "back flesh" brings you down, then nothing short of a monastic habit or a burqa will do for you. And that ain't gonna happen.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 02:53:05 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree! 

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)

Lord have mercy. I would be a basket case trying not to laugh in one of those shopping bags.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 26, 2014, 02:53:47 AM
Quote
I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  

You still have shown no interest in overcoming your "weakness", other than to prevail upon women to conform to a state of "modesty" which is practically monastic. You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself. If a glimpse of "back flesh" brings you down, then nothing short of a monastic habit or a burqa will do for you. And that ain't gonna happen.

LBK, there is always a third way. He could go all Scriptural like he claims to be and:

Quote
Mattityahu 18:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
9 And if your eye causes a michshol for you, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter Chayyim one-eyed than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehinnom HaEish.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 02:54:39 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)

But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

Seconded. And no skin of any sort showing, not even hands. Crossing oneself would need to be done under the bag, so as not to inflame the passions.  :P

But think of the time saved on dressing for Liturgy....this -could- have the positive side effect of making people a bit earlier....some might even arrive for the Gospel reading!!!!!  ;)

Oh, the big sneeze! Off with the bag, my nose is itching!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 02:55:12 AM
Quote
I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  

You still have shown no interest in overcoming your "weakness", other than to prevail upon women to conform to a state of "modesty" which is practically monastic. You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself. If a glimpse of "back flesh" brings you down, then nothing short of a monastic habit or a burqa will do for you. And that ain't gonna happen.

LBK, there is always a third way. He could go all Scriptural like he claims to be and:

Quote
Mattityahu 18:9
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
9 And if your eye causes a michshol for you, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter Chayyim one-eyed than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehinnom HaEish.

Nah, that's Theophilos' shtick.  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 26, 2014, 02:56:11 AM
The one woman in the white long sleeve shirt is dressed very conservatively. She is also really very beautiful. I think her beauty is far more distracting than the tiny holes in her sleeves.

I agree!  

If church looked more like this, things would be better:

(http://www.blogto.com/upload/2009/10/20091005_NuitBlancheZoneC6.jpg)

But we would have to outlaw embellishing or blinging out those paper bags. ;) And of course only brown would be allowed. And we would have to have a length requirement.

Seconded. And no skin of any sort showing, not even hands. Crossing oneself would need to be done under the bag, so as not to inflame the passions.  :P

But think of the time saved on dressing for Liturgy....this -could- have the positive side effect of making people a bit earlier....some might even arrive for the Gospel reading!!!!!  ;)

Oh, the big sneeze! Off with the bag, my nose is itching!

Ah, my dear Maria! Be strong, and fight that passion! Fight it!  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 26, 2014, 02:58:29 AM
It has been explained to me that the dress code for the Goldendale Monastery, as well as the AZ monastery my daughter's godmother attended school at is as much for safety/comfort as anything else. In Yakima rattlesnakes are a particular danger during certain seasons. And it is much easier to do prostrations modestly when you wear a long/full skirt.

Sometimes.

During prostrations, when the entire church is in the aisles making prostrations, there have been times when a man or another woman would accidentally step on a women's long skirt (with an elastic waist), and she was almost exposed. Usually Antiochian and OCA churches make the prostrations. Greek parishes typically do not, but stay in their pews and kneel.

It all depends.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 26, 2014, 03:02:00 AM
Ah, we don't have pews.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 03:20:15 AM
If you think those are skin tight clothes, you've never seen the college co-eds in Seattle wearing yoga pants so tight you can almost see the yeast infections growing.

 :o ??? :o ???

*spills coffee*

I don't know if I'm supposed to be aroused by that or disgusted, or both...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 03:22:35 AM
if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.

Yeah it is. That's like cutting someone's ear off to "protect" them from an ear infection or circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 03:33:51 AM
Ethiopians are often barefoot in services, and they are often very covered. So I don't think the rules are just about modesty.

Different jurisdictions do things different.  I believe in that one they do so because "they are on holy ground", as Moses was told to take of his sandals.

Exactly.

In Hawaii, people are expected to take their shoes off when entering the Orthodox Church. It was a new experience for me.

 ???

You visited Hawaii? I thought that you couldn't travel much due to allergies and other health related issues?

I imagine it was expensive. My friend told me that McDonalds is thrice as expensive in Hawaii as it is over here.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 03:36:13 AM
So is the woman whose "back flesh" you saw peeking from under the buttons of her dress at fault?

To be fair, if Justin Timberlake has taught us anything, it's to never underestimate the sexual nature of the back.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 03:39:31 AM
Actually, that dress code is about being respectful TO God, in his house.  Not about protection, more about perhaps not being vain and superficial.

Not entirely

You're on the right track, but still not quite correct.

Such thinking is actually anti-Incarnational in that it presupposes a chasm between mankind and God that Christ ultimately removed. I mean, if we can receive God into our mouths, kiss an Icon of Him, call Him "Father" in the Lord's Prayer among other things, then I don't see why we would have to cover our bodies in front of Him. It kinda echoes the whole Jewish "ritual purity" thing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 26, 2014, 10:54:23 AM
I am exploring the depths of sin,

How one should understand that?

No,

The point is the person who WANTS to bring attention to herself through a veil is wrong, and those who fall for it are wrong.

I do not think anyone would like to bring your attention to her taking into account your view on women. Stop daydreaming they do it fr you.

Also consider, if EO nuns wear make up.  You should ask one why not.

Because they are nuns. You seem to have a problem differentiating between nuns and normal women.

If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I personally actually do not like heavy make up.

I think you need to re-read what I posted, you are demonizing what I said totally.  I said that "It is my weakness" and I do not judge them.  I was hoping to make some women aware at how easily weak men like myself can fall.

Typical OC.net, the thread turned into bikinis, LGBT, and masturbation.

I was hoping to shed light on my struggle, and the fact that many men may struggle with the same thing.

Your weakness. Not shared or even understood by anyone else.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 11:14:14 AM
If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I personally actually do not like heavy make up.


I'm with you. A little goes a long way.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 26, 2014, 11:21:26 AM
On a lighter note, as kid I lived for a while with some extended family who spoke often only in Pig Latin.

I spent a good portion of my childhood with cousins who would speak fluent Pig Latin among themselves.  How many of us are out there?

My parents and aunts and uncles all frequently spoke Pig Latin so that we children wouldn't understand what they were saying. It worked great until an older cousin helped us crack the code.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:03:04 PM
My parents and aunts and uncles all frequently spoke Pig Latin so that we children wouldn't understand what they were saying. It worked great until an older cousin helped us crack the code.

In my family, the gibberish of choice for preserving secrecy was Hindi, not Pig Latin. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:10:07 PM
So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

So was circumcision.  And kosher laws.  And a bunch of other things that you likely do not observe as God commanded them.  The only difference between you and me is that I prefer the Church's measuring rod in such matters, and you prefer your own.  And therein lies the relevance of Galatians 5.12 if you have ears to hear. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:11:58 PM
You're putting the burden on them, not on yourself.

Matthew 23.4
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 26, 2014, 02:13:00 PM
...circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.

That long?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 26, 2014, 03:33:49 PM
This thread points out several truths.

Like medication, self administered religion can be dangerous in ways not intended by the manufacturer.

Narcissism seems to blend together with an odd mixture of self loathing and guilt.

It is far easier to blame others for one's own weaknesses and shortcomings than to accept any personal responsibility.

I do not believe in the God some of you seem to have invented, that one being a god who created physical beauty, natural beauty, good food and fine wines for the sole and devious purpose of leading us to fail in our spiritual lives. 

Kudos here to Mor and LBK.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: SolEX01 on January 26, 2014, 03:46:33 PM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   ???
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: biro on January 26, 2014, 04:50:50 PM
This thread points out several truths.

Like medication, self administered religion can be dangerous in ways not intended by the manufacturer.

Narcissism seems to blend together with an odd mixture of self loathing and guilt.

It is far easier to blame others for one's own weaknesses and shortcomings than to accept any personal responsibility.

I do not believe in the God some of you seem to have invented, that one being a god who created physical beauty, natural beauty, good food and fine wines for the sole and devious purpose of leading us to fail in our spiritual lives. 

Kudos here to Mor and LBK.

Indeed!
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 26, 2014, 05:00:06 PM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   ???
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: SolEX01 on January 26, 2014, 05:07:47 PM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   ???
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 26, 2014, 05:56:29 PM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   ???
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.

A bigger issue is a twisted and unhealthy view of sex and people's bodies. If they were raised to have a healthy view of these things, even with women dressing modestly, they would have fewer issues in this area.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 26, 2014, 06:26:11 PM
If makeup is wrong, then I don't want to be right.

I personally actually do not like heavy make up.


I'm with you. A little goes a long way.

I disagree. I like heavy makeup on a woman because it gives her a somewhat glamorous look that I go crazy for. As to how much makeup a woman wears at Church, I really don't care. Have you seen how seriously some women take their makeup? I sure wouldn't want to be the one to tell them "you can't come like that."
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: podkarpatska on January 26, 2014, 06:26:24 PM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   ???
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.

A bigger issue is a twisted and unhealthy view of sex and people's bodies. If they were raised to have a healthy view of these things, even with women dressing modestly, they would have fewer issues in this area.

Amen to that.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 27, 2014, 04:19:43 PM
if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.

Yeah it is. That's like cutting someone's ear off to "protect" them from an ear infection or circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.

But yet nobody has any reason at all for the dress code of the monastery.

It's an argument ender.  It's because the scriptures speak of women being modest, the monastery wants women to be modest, and OC.net people, don't seem so much.

My argument has been twisted and contorted so much.   The women in my OP - I was just sharing my own personal weakness.   It's my own sin.

Sisters and brothers should protect each other though, and if women dress to make men fall that is wrong.  I am not accusing the women in my OP.

However, the bikini women, it goes against scripture.   I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 27, 2014, 04:52:36 PM
No offense, but the reference to women being baptized in bikinis seems like a bit if a distraction.  Much like the clown masses that are often mentioned.

I wonder, if you didn't insist your wife dress so plainly, would your mind stray as much?  Maybe you would be more excited to look at you wife. 

For some reason this reminds me of a Rita Hayworth movie called Miss Sadie Thompson. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 27, 2014, 04:54:12 PM
Thought this thread was locked since I hadn't seen it in a few hours.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 27, 2014, 05:29:21 PM
Then by all means PLEASE trust the scriptures, not me.

Like Galatians 5.12?  ISTM that would kill two birds with one stone.  

So you want Matthew and God to castrate themselves?  Those authors which would be the agitators of the two scriptures I cited.  Are those the "two birds"?  ;)

On a serious note, those *really do* exist in the scriptures, and I know everybody knows it.  I cite them because there is no way out of it for Eastern Orthodox Christians other than to outright reject them and call on tradition.  But they were commands of God.

There are wonderful and beautiful things in Orthodoxy, but there are some wrong things too.  If you skip the fact that there were powerful and manipulative men in charge at times and go directly to the commands from God, you can see the errors in practice.   It's a dead horse here I know.  We'll probably never agree.  But who knows?

On to the thread, I think I've made my point.   I have weaknesses in glances and small lusts and I hope that some sisters in Christ who find this thread will consider there are probably others like me who would appreciate them helping me not to struggle by being modest.  It's their choice though, and my sin is before me.

Can you confess your back flesh fascination to a Mennonite priest given that you're so willing to share this with an Internet forum?   ???
Mennonites don't have priests and even some Mennonite ministers would state he has internal issues that are his own responsibility.

Other Mennonite males may share the same problem with yeshuaisiam.  If back flesh fascinations are too powerful to deal with alone, having the support of others is crucial.

A bigger issue is a twisted and unhealthy view of sex and people's bodies. If they were raised to have a healthy view of these things, even with women dressing modestly, they would have fewer issues in this area.

Amen to that.



Following goat kidding season, if I have time, I'm will unearth some Orthodox books and writings on some of you that will show how un-Eastern Orthodox your arguments and beliefs are.

But for now, I'll leave it with scripture (even though I know from users here, that scriptures themselves aren't respected much).

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

(I don't know the intent of bikini clad women.... oh no I don't.  LOL)

Or the women in completely see through clothings and breasts hanging out in the Theophany.
http://www.demotix.com/photo/561183/orthodox-epiphany-celebrations-ukraine (http://www.demotix.com/photo/561183/orthodox-epiphany-celebrations-ukraine)
Excuses.... Reasons...   Yeah I know, keep making them up folks.

No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/19/article-2265166-1708CD53000005DC-866_634x425.jpg)

Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.  1 Corinthians 8:  9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/visitorguide.php (http://www.stanthonysmonastery.org/visitorguide.php)
* Orthodox clergy must wear a cassock (raso) in the Monastery and an outer cassock (exoraso) in the services.
* Men must wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts
*Women must wear long skirts, long-sleeved blouses, and scarves. (Please, no pants/slacks (unless worn under skirt), no tight-fitting clothing, no skirts with slits, hats, low-cut blouses, or sheer or small scarves)
* Shoes/sandals must be worn with socks at all times. Please do not wear sheer stockings. Please wear practical and comfortable flat shoes while at the Monastery as it is desert terrain and the pathways are of rough flagstone. Please wear flat shoes— No high heels, platform shoes or open-toed sandals.

Okay, so they have this dress code because of _______?  Typical thread answer "They don't know her intent".   LOL

Loose fitting clothing because of..... ?
Low-cut blouses because of...... ?
NO TIGHT FITTING CLOTHING because of...... ? 

You guys need to learn Orthodoxy 101, seriously.  Your own monasteries speak to my argument, while some of you try to rip me apart for the very reasons monks post these rules.


Not Isolated, let's try Mt. Athos:
Quote from: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2011/07/should-women-be-allowed-on-holy-mount-athos/ (http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2011/07/should-women-be-allowed-on-holy-mount-athos/)
Throughout Christian history, many religious communities of men and women have chosen to live apart to focus their lives on their spiritual mission. The monks’ lives of devotion to God include the practices of scarcity and asceticism as well as virginity, seeking to remove any barriers, including sexual desire, to their pursuit of spiritual peace and holiness.

So they don't want women to cause them to fall into sexual desire.   But the consensus of this thread is "That's not her fault it's your fault and you don't know her intent."   So part of the monks banning women, INCLUDES sexual desire on part of the monks!

Do some of you still want to argue?

http://www.panagiaprousiotissa.org/dresscode.html (http://www.panagiaprousiotissa.org/dresscode.html)
Men are asked to wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts. Women are asked to wear ankle-length skirts, long-sleeved shirts, and are to have their heads covered with a veil or scarf. Please DO NOT wear hats (unless over a scarf), shear scarves, pants (unless under a skirt), shorts, pant-skirts, mini-skirts, sleeveless blouses, short-sleeved shirts, etc. Everyone is asked to wear socks (especially when wearing sandals).

Ah HA, there is a shear scarf mentioned as I did in my OP.

Here's another link talking about women being turned away from church because of dress codes.... "The monks are only human..."  "Chose a life of celibacy..."   (Of course it's not her fault or intent right?)
http://www.kurskroot.com/orthodox_dress_code.html (http://www.kurskroot.com/orthodox_dress_code.html)

So here we have your Eastern Orthdox Brothers in Christ turning away women from their monastery because they don't dress right - because they don't want to LUST for them.  Even down to sheer scarves.  In the dress codes posted, "sheer" was spelled differently, thus most likely typed out and not a simple copy/paste.

So tell me if I'm so wrong in my argument, why is it that the well versed Eastern Orthodoxy Christians somewhat side with what I'm saying?  If I'm wrong then why do the scriptures say we can cause each other to stumble?  If I'm wrong why do monks see sheer scarves outside of their dress code?  If I'm wrong why do monks see tight clothes (in my OP) as a no-no.  If I'm wrong why don't pants conform?   If I'm wrong why does a slit in the back of a dress not work for an Orthodox environment in the eyes of Orthodox Christians?

The point is, men stumble, and women can cause them to stumble both with intent or not.   A sister in Christ should be concerned about this for her brothers, OR be turned away (as the monasteries do) in the Eastern Orthodox church.

So please, the arguments I'm hearing from many of you are against the scriptures and your own Eastern Orthodox brothers/clergy.

If a woman can be called out and turned back at a monastery (despite HER INTENT) then certainly any man can recognize the depths of his own lust and small things that make him fall.  She shows up in a sheer scarf, the monks know they may gawk at it and fall into lust, despite her intent.




Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 27, 2014, 05:47:47 PM
Would u please stop posting pictures of Orthodox women to incite public shaming and ridicule ?

Look, most here would not dress like that and I doubt it is a common occurrence.  You can find anything in the Internet.  But we are not going to join you in picking up stones to throw at her.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 27, 2014, 05:49:45 PM
I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him.

Well, they could always be baptized naked with Deaconesses blocking the Priest's vision, which is what the ancient Church did IIRC.

Our sensitivity over nudity or near-nudity is actually a newer convention unfounded in ancient history,
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Etsi on January 27, 2014, 05:55:52 PM
I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him.

Well, they could always be baptized naked with Deaconesses blocking the Priest's vision, which is what the ancient Church did IIRC.

Our sensitivity over nudity or near-nudity is actually a newer convention unfounded in ancient history,

Exactly what I was thinking...people used to be baptised in the nude.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Romaios on January 27, 2014, 05:56:19 PM
I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him.

Well, they could always be baptized naked with Deaconesses blocking the Priest's vision, which is what the ancient Church did IIRC.

Our sensitivity over nudity or near-nudity is actually a newer convention unfounded in ancient history,

Yes, the lady in YiM's last picture is probably getting baptized and not participating in a 'fetch the cross' Theophany contest (she wouldn't be the only one taking her clothes off).

No, deaconesses were not supposed to "block the Priest's vision", since - obviously - he couldn't perform the baptism blindfolded.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 27, 2014, 05:56:42 PM
No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/19/article-2265166-1708CD53000005DC-866_634x425.jpg)

I think a problem here is that "modesty" is subjective and defined by society. People often think that modesty means 19th century or something when in reality what is modest depends on what culture deems modest at the time.

That being said, maybe I'm not as easily aroused as you are, but I don't find the female in this picture that immodest. It's average swimwear by today's standards. There is nothing exceptionally immodest about it. If the Priests in the photo cannot handle it, then that is their problem. They need to learn to, otherwise they shouldn't be clerics.

I think that putting a heavier burden on the woman in question by demanding that she dress in something different is very inconsiderate. How many young women do you see today that are actually religious? Not many, at least IME. I'd commend any female for even going to Church and accepting Baptism regardless of what she was wearing, out of ekonomia.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Romaios on January 27, 2014, 06:02:41 PM
I'd commend any female for even going to Church and accepting Baptism regardless of what she was wearing, out of ekonomia.

This one deserves a medal for putting up with the cold water.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 27, 2014, 06:02:52 PM
Yes,  she's obviously not undergoing infant baptism so maybe wasn't raised with any faith instruction.  So good for her for being baptized!  And is that on frozen ice?  Not sure I could do that, I'd wait till summer if possible. Or find a church in Miami.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: vamrat on January 27, 2014, 06:08:00 PM

No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/19/article-2265166-1708CD53000005DC-866_634x425.jpg)

I would be doing what that Bishop is doing in the picture...staring at the icewater and imagining that it is actually Nancy Pelosi getting nakie.  Otherwise, I might think some sinful thoughts.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 27, 2014, 06:11:59 PM
So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.


really?  


You showed us pictures of very sensibly dressed for church ladies, and told us how you would still be tempted by little things in their outfits.  

No one ever said, people should dress immodestly to attend church or go anywhere else.  


You keep returning to the idea that the rest of us have -no- standards when someone argues that your examples are not immodest.  Rather the standard is not 'absolutely zero temptation to any man on earth', but rather reasonably modest.

That is why several MEN have replied and told you that there is an issue with the level of temptation you have...if even modestly clothed women are such a huge constant lure.

You then reply with another scandalous unclad female picture and accuse us of being accepting of 'anything'.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 27, 2014, 06:17:53 PM
So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.


really?  


You showed us pictures of very sensibly dressed for church ladies, and told us how you would still be tempted by little things in their outfits.  

No one ever said, people should dress immodestly to attend church or go anywhere else.  


You keep returning to the idea that the rest of us have -no- standards when someone argues that your examples are not immodest.  Rather the standard is not 'absolutely zero temptation to any man on earth', but rather reasonably modest.

That is why several MEN have replied and told you that there is an issue with the level of temptation you have...if even modestly clothed women are such a huge constant lure.

You then reply with another scandalous unclad female picture and accuse us of being accepting of 'anything'.



I really don't find her attire scandalous. It is bathing clothes. She is going into water. They are modest clothes for the situation.

And this attempt to scandalize to make a point is not without precedent here: clown masses.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 27, 2014, 06:20:25 PM
So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.

I don't find the photo "outrageous" by any standard. She's getting into the water--what should she be wearing? An ankle-length dress? She's modest by the standards of today.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 27, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
So you are back to showing us the -most outrageous- picture you can find, and claiming that since we have questioned your focus on tiny details as being tempting, that we approve of the outrageous picture by default.

I don't find the photo "outrageous" by any standard. She's getting into the water--what should she be wearing? An ankle-length dress? She's modest by the standards of today.

This thread is nothing more than a study of the importance of context.

If she were naked, I wouldn't give a fig so to speak. Now if she had on other attire, I might actually be "tempted".

Naked and appropriately (according the general norm) dressed women just don't cause much of a reaction that could even be considered lust for me, unless I am in a relationship with them.

It's probably the only healthy part of my psyche and I am sticking to it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: SolEX01 on January 27, 2014, 06:40:28 PM
Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.

People can accept/reject temptation.  It's called free will.  You allow the sight of back flesh to tempt you; you have as much power to reject that temptation and not allow the distraction to affect you.

You guys need to learn Orthodoxy 101, seriously.

You first.   ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 27, 2014, 06:42:49 PM
Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.

People can accept/reject temptation.  It's called free will.  You allow the sight of back flesh to tempt you; you have as much power to reject that temptation and not allow the distraction to affect you.

That is absolutely not the case writ general. Maybe you have some personal infos about YiM, but that is not the teaching on sin nor sinful acts. Orthodoxy isn't Tony Robbins.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 27, 2014, 06:51:22 PM
There's a book you should read, called Martyr's Mirror.  It has a lot of details of people that the EO absorbed into their faith who were martyred.   Also a lineage you have probably never heard of traced through people the EO claim as saints, who were nothing like EO Christians.  You may also learn something about the overall Catholic Church, especially the Roman Catholic church.

I looked into this book briefly to see what it was about. Per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror):

Quote
Martyrs' Mirror or The Bloody Theater, first published in 1660 in Dutch by Thieleman J. van Braght, documents the stories and testimonies of Christian martyrs, especially Anabaptists. The full title of the book is The Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the Defenseless Christians who baptized only upon confession of faith, and who suffered and died for the testimony of Jesus, their Saviour, from the time of Christ to the year A.D. 1660. The use of the word defenseless in this case refers to the Anabaptist belief in non-resistance. The book includes accounts of the martyrdom of the apostles and the stories of martyrs from previous centuries with beliefs similar to the Anabaptists.

Next to the Bible, the Martyrs' Mirror held the most significant and prominent place in Amish and Mennonite homes

Interesting.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: SolEX01 on January 27, 2014, 07:12:46 PM
Oh wait, so many of you say "it is my own sin" and did not even recognize that people can cause others to sin.

People can accept/reject temptation.  It's called free will.  You allow the sight of back flesh to tempt you; you have as much power to reject that temptation and not allow the distraction to affect you.

That is absolutely not the case writ general. Maybe you have some personal infos about YiM, but that is not the teaching on sin nor sinful acts.  Orthodoxy isn't Tony Robbins.

This thread is about free will and how we respond in the face of temptation.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 27, 2014, 07:17:49 PM
But for now, I'll leave it with scripture (even though I know from users here, that scriptures themselves aren't respected much).

That users disagree with your particular interpretation of Scripture doesn't mean they don't respect it. That schtick is really old.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 27, 2014, 07:38:55 PM
I think YIM has personal issues brought about by basically being Mennonite. He may not say he is Mennonite, but in essence he is. And because of that, he is incapable of seeing anything outside of that world view. So *of course* he is going to find back flesh an issue. Much like a Muslim man that is used to all skin on a woman being automatically sexual, will be tempted by any woman that isn't fully covered.

YIM, if your temptations are so horrible, just jump the shark and move into a full on Mennonite community. Join a Mennonite forum, and you will have everyone on board and in agreement with you about this issue. Because you aren't going to get non-Mennonites to agree with you on what is and is not tempting when it comes to back flesh. And you certainly aren't going to make a case that all women should dress like Amish/Mennonite women.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 27, 2014, 07:42:52 PM
Amen, Sister
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 27, 2014, 07:48:45 PM
As to the "scandalous" photos of those Ukrainian women at Theophany;

I don't find those photos to be examples of women attempting to attract attention at all. I view those women as trying to survive a very cold dip in the water. Believe it or not, wearing tons of layers into cold water is actually MORE dangerous than wearing very little to nothing. Fabric sticks to the body, and this in turn lowers the core body temp. So if you want to avoid hypothermia, going nude or nearly nude into frigid waters is much wiser than wearing multiple layers. The weight alone of multiple layers of fabric would put someone at risk of drowning, factor in fabric from skirts/dresses impeding mobility, and the wet cloth lowering core body temp, and being nude is really much wiser. In fact, it is better to strip out of your wet clothing until you can dry it off in a survival situation rather than sit and allow it to freeze on your body. So if you fall into a frozen body of water it goes like this:

Pull yourself out of water
Start a fire immediately
Strip off wet clothing, roll in snow to dry off (as long as it is powder and not the NW cement)
Dry off clothing, drink hot fluids, stay in motion to keep core temp up
Put on dry clothing
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 27, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 27, 2014, 07:59:03 PM
As to this passage:
1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

What is less costly than the nude body? What is more vulnerable than the nude naked form? I think you are making assumptions of what modesty is. Now, I agree that most clothing of modern design isn't exactly modest. But I don't agree with you that you can make a Sola Scriptura argument for dressing like a Mennonite, or a fully covered Muslim, or a bikini clad woman. Modesty has far more to do with the character of the person than it does the attire that they wear. Some of the least modest people I have known, have worn the most outwardly modest clothing I have seen.

IIRC Mennonite women arrange their hair in order to fit it underneath the cover. So one could easily use this passage to say that is wrong. I wouldn't make that argument. But I point this out because individual interpretation of scripture can be used to come to any argument one would like.

This passage could actually be used to argue that all people should be nudists as well.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 27, 2014, 11:45:16 PM
I think YIM has personal issues brought about by basically being Mennonite. He may not say he is Mennonite, but in essence he is. And because of that, he is incapable of seeing anything outside of that world view. So *of course* he is going to find back flesh an issue. Much like a Muslim man that is used to all skin on a woman being automatically sexual, will be tempted by any woman that isn't fully covered.

YIM, if your temptations are so horrible, just jump the shark and move into a full on Mennonite community. Join a Mennonite forum, and you will have everyone on board and in agreement with you about this issue. Because you aren't going to get non-Mennonites to agree with you on what is and is not tempting when it comes to back flesh. And you certainly aren't going to make a case that all women should dress like Amish/Mennonite women.

Care to address the monastery dress code and how monks want the same around them and cite the same reasons?

It's all me though right?  :)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 27, 2014, 11:49:35 PM
As to this passage:
1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

What is less costly than the nude body? What is more vulnerable than the nude naked form? I think you are making assumptions of what modesty is. Now, I agree that most clothing of modern design isn't exactly modest. But I don't agree with you that you can make a Sola Scriptura argument for dressing like a Mennonite, or a fully covered Muslim, or a bikini clad woman. Modesty has far more to do with the character of the person than it does the attire that they wear. Some of the least modest people I have known, have worn the most outwardly modest clothing I have seen.

IIRC Mennonite women arrange their hair in order to fit it underneath the cover. So one could easily use this passage to say that is wrong. I wouldn't make that argument. But I point this out because individual interpretation of scripture can be used to come to any argument one would like.

This passage could actually be used to argue that all people should be nudists as well.

So....

The monks believe that modesty has to do with charachter.....  THAT's what they meant right?

Look, I'm not going to laugh at you.   I feel bad honestly, that some of you don't understand this.  i posted several links showing how monks didn't want temptation by immodest dress.  There is no way around this.  If your brothers who live a spiritual based life struggle with the temptation of lust from seeing flesh (as they admit on their own sites), then certainly my arguments are not wrong and they should not be for you.  They even mentioned "sheer veils".

I think my point has been made and I validated it with EO sources.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 27, 2014, 11:52:15 PM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water

Because it's fun to baptize in freezing bodies of water young girls in bikinis.  Who would have ever considered a covered woman in a warm trough or container of water?

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 27, 2014, 11:57:45 PM
I think YIM has personal issues brought about by basically being Mennonite. He may not say he is Mennonite, but in essence he is. And because of that, he is incapable of seeing anything outside of that world view. So *of course* he is going to find back flesh an issue. Much like a Muslim man that is used to all skin on a woman being automatically sexual, will be tempted by any woman that isn't fully covered.

YIM, if your temptations are so horrible, just jump the shark and move into a full on Mennonite community. Join a Mennonite forum, and you will have everyone on board and in agreement with you about this issue. Because you aren't going to get non-Mennonites to agree with you on what is and is not tempting when it comes to back flesh. And you certainly aren't going to make a case that all women should dress like Amish/Mennonite women.

Care to address the monastery dress code and how monks want the same around them and cite the same reasons?

It's all me though right?  :)

You are a married man with a wife, right?  And are distracted by girls and women. This is not about celibate monks who have no sexual outlet.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:00:31 AM
There's a book you should read, called Martyr's Mirror.  It has a lot of details of people that the EO absorbed into their faith who were martyred.   Also a lineage you have probably never heard of traced through people the EO claim as saints, who were nothing like EO Christians.  You may also learn something about the overall Catholic Church, especially the Roman Catholic church.

I looked into this book briefly to see what it was about. Per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror):

Quote
Martyrs' Mirror or The Bloody Theater, first published in 1660 in Dutch by Thieleman J. van Braght, documents the stories and testimonies of Christian martyrs, especially Anabaptists. The full title of the book is The Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the Defenseless Christians who baptized only upon confession of faith, and who suffered and died for the testimony of Jesus, their Saviour, from the time of Christ to the year A.D. 1660. The use of the word defenseless in this case refers to the Anabaptist belief in non-resistance. The book includes accounts of the martyrdom of the apostles and the stories of martyrs from previous centuries with beliefs similar to the Anabaptists.

Next to the Bible, the Martyrs' Mirror held the most significant and prominent place in Amish and Mennonite homes

Interesting.


Thank you for recognizing that.  The book is incredible, jaw dropping, and simply amazing.  This wasn't the book of the victors of wars and political movements, nor of emperors and kings.  It's a compilation of the persecuted, by the persecuted.   The sources often very clearly cited.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 12:01:01 AM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water

Because it's fun to baptize in freezing bodies of water young girls in bikinis.  Who would have ever considered a covered woman in a warm trough or container of water?



YiM became no thing to all men that he might save himself from them.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Maria on January 28, 2014, 12:03:39 AM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water

Because it's fun to baptize in freezing bodies of water young girls in bikinis.  Who would have ever considered a covered woman in a warm trough or container of water?



The Church prefers to baptize in living water (water coming from streams, lakes, rivers, and oceans) rather than water in a watering trough. And yes, living water is cold and sometimes frozen, but the cold water is a symbol of death. We are baptized through immersion in living water three times to symbolize dying to sin and rising with Christ as a new creation in Christ.

In Churches with a baptismal font, the water is generally heated to prevent the newborn child from getting too chilled.

We should be starting a new thread perhaps because I have heard that the tradition from the Ancient Church was to baptize in the nude. In fact, Father Thomas Hopko said that there was a baptism at St. Vladimir's Seminary where the young lady asked to be baptized in the nude. However, there were sheets all around her held by people facing away from her to preserve her modesty.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:07:57 AM
I think YIM has personal issues brought about by basically being Mennonite. He may not say he is Mennonite, but in essence he is. And because of that, he is incapable of seeing anything outside of that world view. So *of course* he is going to find back flesh an issue. Much like a Muslim man that is used to all skin on a woman being automatically sexual, will be tempted by any woman that isn't fully covered.

YIM, if your temptations are so horrible, just jump the shark and move into a full on Mennonite community. Join a Mennonite forum, and you will have everyone on board and in agreement with you about this issue. Because you aren't going to get non-Mennonites to agree with you on what is and is not tempting when it comes to back flesh. And you certainly aren't going to make a case that all women should dress like Amish/Mennonite women.

Care to address the monastery dress code and how monks want the same around them and cite the same reasons?

It's all me though right?  :)

You are a married man with a wife, right?  And are distracted by girls and women. This is not about celibate monks who have no sexual outlet.

No no no...
It's not right for a man to get all lusty for other women and go "take it out" on his wife.  That is WRONG.  May as well go look at porn in that case and then go see your wife for outlet.  Either way it is not right and inappropriate to approach a wife as an outlet for lust of other women.

The same applies.  The monks are caused to fall by their sisters in Christ, just as any layman can.  The monks recognize slight details like sheer veils.... It may not be the woman's intent, but they can be denied entry into a monastery/church - thus possibly the Eucharist in that church, over a sheer veil.

I believe this completely validates my argument despite the ridicule.  I have respectable Orthodox monasteries that state these things in their rules.

My argument is not perfect, and is my weakness.... But obviously respectable Eastern Orthodox Christians believe at least in part that even small details such as a sheer veil can make them fall.

I know all men are different, but this was my experience and weakness.  Obviously, there is some solidity to what I am saying if monks will turn women away for the same things that may cause me to "fall" even in the slightest.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 12:09:15 AM
For what it's worth, I'd like to point out that sinfulness in Orthodoxy isn't necessarily about upholding or violating a set of rules in the judicial context, but rather it's understood as being anything that impedes upon our Theosis. I think that many people on here are viewing sin in an overly legalistic manner that may not be doctrinally correct.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 28, 2014, 12:11:56 AM
Quote
However, there were sheets all around her held by people facing away from her to preserve her modesty.
as if they hadn't seen that before.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 28, 2014, 12:14:10 AM
I think YIM has personal issues brought about by basically being Mennonite. He may not say he is Mennonite, but in essence he is. And because of that, he is incapable of seeing anything outside of that world view. So *of course* he is going to find back flesh an issue. Much like a Muslim man that is used to all skin on a woman being automatically sexual, will be tempted by any woman that isn't fully covered.

YIM, if your temptations are so horrible, just jump the shark and move into a full on Mennonite community. Join a Mennonite forum, and you will have everyone on board and in agreement with you about this issue. Because you aren't going to get non-Mennonites to agree with you on what is and is not tempting when it comes to back flesh. And you certainly aren't going to make a case that all women should dress like Amish/Mennonite women.

Care to address the monastery dress code and how monks want the same around them and cite the same reasons?

It's all me though right?  :)

You are a married man with a wife, right?  And are distracted by girls and women. This is not about celibate monks who have no sexual outlet.

No no no...
It's not right for a man to get all lusty for other women and go "take it out" on his wife.  That is WRONG.  May as well go look at porn in that case and then go see your wife for outlet.  Either way it is not right and inappropriate to approach a wife as an outlet for lust of other women.

The same applies.  The monks are caused to fall by their sisters in Christ, just as any layman can.  The monks recognize slight details like sheer veils.... It may not be the woman's intent, but they can be denied entry into a monastery/church - thus possibly the Eucharist in that church, over a sheer veil.

I believe this completely validates my argument despite the ridicule.  I have respectable Orthodox monasteries that state these things in their rules.

My argument is not perfect, and is my weakness.... But obviously respectable Eastern Orthodox Christians believe at least in part that even small details such as a sheer veil can make them fall.

I know all men are different, but this was my experience and weakness.  Obviously, there is some solidity to what I am saying if monks will turn women away for the same things that may cause me to "fall" even in the slightest.

I think you misunderstood. You have a wife She is your beloved.  Other women and girls shouldn't have to live under your idea of strictness if you can't stay focused on your wife.  
 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 12:20:57 AM
The monks recognize slight details like sheer veils.... It may not be the woman's intent, but they can be denied entry into a monastery/church - thus possibly the Eucharist in that church, over a sheer veil.

I believe this completely validates my argument despite the ridicule.  I have respectable Orthodox monasteries that state these things in their rules.

My argument is not perfect, and is my weakness.... But obviously respectable Eastern Orthodox Christians believe at least in part that even small details such as a sheer veil can make them fall.


What do you suggest then, YiM? You've said that the woman's intent needs to be in the right place, but also that we should think of men so as to help them not to stumble. So I'm genuinely asking- in what practical way? What dress code do you suggest?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water

Because it's fun to baptize in freezing bodies of water young girls in bikinis.  Who would have ever considered a covered woman in a warm trough or container of water?



The Church prefers to baptize in living water (water coming from streams, lakes, rivers, and oceans) rather than water in a watering trough. And yes, living water is cold and sometimes frozen, but the cold water is a symbol of death. We are baptized through immersion in living water three times to symbolize dying to sin and rising with Christ as a new creation in Christ.

In Churches with a baptismal font, the water is generally heated to prevent the newborn child from getting too chilled.

We should be starting a new thread perhaps because I have heard that the tradition from the Ancient Church was to baptize in the nude. In fact, Father Thomas Hopko said that there was a baptism at St. Vladimir's Seminary where the young lady asked to be baptized in the nude. However, there were sheets all around her held by people facing away from her to preserve her modesty.

Seems more like a fetish of sorts (warning considerable nude woman captioned with theophany)
http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-1/photos/1358617086-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737191.jpg (http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-1/photos/1358617086-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737191.jpg)

See, they want to remain traditional, yet nothing about them is traditional.  

I can respect the living water thing, but the fruits are different.  For a priest to allow a naked woman to go cross diving at theophany, is ridiculous.   It is scandalous.  There are CHILDREN present for this sick fetish.

Adam and Eve were given clothes by God.  When they sinned, they immediately knew they were naked.

There is no way out of this, it is disgusting.  And it matters not if that woman was there for theophany diving, or being baptized.   This isn't appropriate for children to see.

Pure nudity in theophany - (warning the link contains nudity - I am NOT sure about forum rules when linking material like this.  It is not meant for sexual linking, but rather displaying an Orthodox Church practice that I disagree with in order to debate, inform, teach, or learn apologetics about - please minors or those offended or who would lust do not click)
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-7/photos/1358617082-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737187.jpg (http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-7/photos/1358617082-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737187.jpg)

I see something like the above photo, and can't imagine any sane Eastern Orthodox Christian believing this is appropriate during Theophany.  

Maria, as I respect what you say and understand the tradition, the woman as you stated was insured modesty in what she was doing.  Though I would personally find it ridiculous that she would request that - I understand why.

The naked woman on my last link was linked to be "bathing for the theophany".   In other words wallowing around naked in front of her church.

As we see the excuse mentality of other EO Christians here we end up with heretical apologetics that this type of stuff is "just fine".  It is ironic that the monastic rules agree to some of the statements that I posted on the OP stating it for the reasons of lust.

I know most people here DO disagree with naked women like that during services.  It's simply unneeded.  

Treading back to the OP, the Eastern Orthodox monk's own standards tend to (not completely) speak of some of the arguments I presented.  It's easy for some of us men to fall.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 28, 2014, 12:31:50 AM
you probably "fell" once you googled the pic above
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:32:30 AM
So let me get this straight, you are enticed by BACK FLESH. But you are googling images of NUDE or partially nude women to make your point about how all med are enticed by back flesh?

Dude, step away from the computer. And don't use "proving how right you are" as an excuse for looking at nude women.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:32:56 AM
The monks recognize slight details like sheer veils.... It may not be the woman's intent, but they can be denied entry into a monastery/church - thus possibly the Eucharist in that church, over a sheer veil.

I believe this completely validates my argument despite the ridicule.  I have respectable Orthodox monasteries that state these things in their rules.

My argument is not perfect, and is my weakness.... But obviously respectable Eastern Orthodox Christians believe at least in part that even small details such as a sheer veil can make them fall.


What do you suggest then, YiM? You've said that the woman's intent needs to be in the right place, but also that we should think of men so as to help them not to stumble. So I'm genuinely asking- in what practical way? What dress code do you suggest?

I really don't have one per se.  I would hope modest..... Probably more along the lines that the monks would expect as a woman visits a monastery.   Men are men.  It is our faults completely.  I think it's a "helpful thing" to help us not to fall..... Like a courtesy.

The things in my OP weren't really all that bad to be honest.  But I was just trying to give some incite as to how some men would perceive things.  Obviously the monks dress code somewhat concurs.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 12:34:15 AM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water

Because it's fun to baptize in freezing bodies of water young girls in bikinis.  Who would have ever considered a covered woman in a warm trough or container of water?



The Church prefers to baptize in living water (water coming from streams, lakes, rivers, and oceans) rather than water in a watering trough. And yes, living water is cold and sometimes frozen, but the cold water is a symbol of death. We are baptized through immersion in living water three times to symbolize dying to sin and rising with Christ as a new creation in Christ.

In Churches with a baptismal font, the water is generally heated to prevent the newborn child from getting too chilled.

We should be starting a new thread perhaps because I have heard that the tradition from the Ancient Church was to baptize in the nude. In fact, Father Thomas Hopko said that there was a baptism at St. Vladimir's Seminary where the young lady asked to be baptized in the nude. However, there were sheets all around her held by people facing away from her to preserve her modesty.

Seems more like a fetish of sorts (warning considerable nude woman captioned with theophany)
http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-1/photos/1358617086-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737191.jpg (http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-1/photos/1358617086-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737191.jpg)

See, they want to remain traditional, yet nothing about them is traditional.  

I can respect the living water thing, but the fruits are different.  For a priest to allow a naked woman to go cross diving at theophany, is ridiculous.   It is scandalous.  There are CHILDREN present for this sick fetish.

Adam and Eve were given clothes by God.  When they sinned, they immediately knew they were naked.

There is no way out of this, it is disgusting.  And it matters not if that woman was there for theophany diving, or being baptized.   This isn't appropriate for children to see.

Pure nudity in theophany - (warning the link contains nudity - I am NOT sure about forum rules when linking material like this.  It is not meant for sexual linking, but rather displaying an Orthodox Church practice that I disagree with in order to debate, inform, teach, or learn apologetics about - please minors or those offended or who would lust do not click)
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-7/photos/1358617082-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737187.jpg (http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-7/photos/1358617082-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737187.jpg)

I see something like the above photo, and can't imagine any sane Eastern Orthodox Christian believing this is appropriate during Theophany.  

Maria, as I respect what you say and understand the tradition, the woman as you stated was insured modesty in what she was doing.  Though I would personally find it ridiculous that she would request that - I understand why.

The naked woman on my last link was linked to be "bathing for the theophany".   In other words wallowing around naked in front of her church.

As we see the excuse mentality of other EO Christians here we end up with heretical apologetics that this type of stuff is "just fine".  It is ironic that the monastic rules agree to some of the statements that I posted on the OP stating it for the reasons of lust.

I know most people here DO disagree with naked women like that during services.  It's simply unneeded.  

Treading back to the OP, the Eastern Orthodox monk's own standards tend to (not completely) speak of some of the arguments I presented.  It's easy for some of us men to fall.



You don't know what a fetish is obviously. A head covering interestingly (or ironically for the similarly ignorant) is likely to be one though.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:34:31 AM
you probably "fell" once you googled the pic above

Yes.

Pray for me.

But I hope it helps others understand some of the excuses they are making for that behavior.  We all know its wrong.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 12:34:48 AM
This might be a bit misogynist, but I find myself more aroused by girls when they serve me food at coffee hour than I am when they dress "immodestly."
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:36:09 AM
No, no it doesn't make your argument make any more sense whatsoever.


Seriously, join a Mennonite chat group. Quit using us as an excuse for looking at photos that cause you to fall. It doesn't change my view on the appropriateness of nude or semi nude baptism and theophany swimming.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:37:30 AM
How wrong are we that we don't find those photos enticing when we look at them when you post them, if you SEEK THEM OUT KNOWING THEY CAUSE YOU TO SIN?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 12:37:42 AM
Believe it or not, wearing tons of layers into cold water is actually MORE dangerous than wearing very little to nothing. Fabric sticks to the body, and this in turn lowers the core body temp. So if you want to avoid hypothermia, going nude or nearly nude into frigid waters is much wiser than wearing multiple layers. The weight alone of multiple layers of fabric would put someone at risk of drowning, factor in fabric from skirts/dresses impeding mobility, and the wet cloth lowering core body temp, and being nude is really much wiser. In fact, it is better to strip out of your wet clothing until you can dry it off in a survival situation rather than sit and allow it to freeze on your body.

Better that she should die than that I should sin.   :-\  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:38:34 AM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water

Because it's fun to baptize in freezing bodies of water young girls in bikinis.  Who would have ever considered a covered woman in a warm trough or container of water?



The Church prefers to baptize in living water (water coming from streams, lakes, rivers, and oceans) rather than water in a watering trough. And yes, living water is cold and sometimes frozen, but the cold water is a symbol of death. We are baptized through immersion in living water three times to symbolize dying to sin and rising with Christ as a new creation in Christ.

In Churches with a baptismal font, the water is generally heated to prevent the newborn child from getting too chilled.

We should be starting a new thread perhaps because I have heard that the tradition from the Ancient Church was to baptize in the nude. In fact, Father Thomas Hopko said that there was a baptism at St. Vladimir's Seminary where the young lady asked to be baptized in the nude. However, there were sheets all around her held by people facing away from her to preserve her modesty.

Seems more like a fetish of sorts (warning considerable nude woman captioned with theophany)
http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-1/photos/1358617086-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737191.jpg (http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-1/photos/1358617086-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737191.jpg)

See, they want to remain traditional, yet nothing about them is traditional.  

I can respect the living water thing, but the fruits are different.  For a priest to allow a naked woman to go cross diving at theophany, is ridiculous.   It is scandalous.  There are CHILDREN present for this sick fetish.

Adam and Eve were given clothes by God.  When they sinned, they immediately knew they were naked.

There is no way out of this, it is disgusting.  And it matters not if that woman was there for theophany diving, or being baptized.   This isn't appropriate for children to see.

Pure nudity in theophany - (warning the link contains nudity - I am NOT sure about forum rules when linking material like this.  It is not meant for sexual linking, but rather displaying an Orthodox Church practice that I disagree with in order to debate, inform, teach, or learn apologetics about - please minors or those offended or who would lust do not click)
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-7/photos/1358617082-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737187.jpg (http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1700-7/photos/1358617082-orthodox-believers-celebrate-the-baptism-of-christ_1737187.jpg)

I see something like the above photo, and can't imagine any sane Eastern Orthodox Christian believing this is appropriate during Theophany.  

Maria, as I respect what you say and understand the tradition, the woman as you stated was insured modesty in what she was doing.  Though I would personally find it ridiculous that she would request that - I understand why.

The naked woman on my last link was linked to be "bathing for the theophany".   In other words wallowing around naked in front of her church.

As we see the excuse mentality of other EO Christians here we end up with heretical apologetics that this type of stuff is "just fine".  It is ironic that the monastic rules agree to some of the statements that I posted on the OP stating it for the reasons of lust.

I know most people here DO disagree with naked women like that during services.  It's simply unneeded.  

Treading back to the OP, the Eastern Orthodox monk's own standards tend to (not completely) speak of some of the arguments I presented.  It's easy for some of us men to fall.



You don't know what a fetish is obviously. A head covering interestingly (or ironically for the similarly ignorant) is likely to be one though.

I guess I didn't.  I looked it up and it has to be an object of some kind.

I stand corrected, please insert exhibitionist in the place of the word "fetish".   I had to look that up too.  LOL
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:40:25 AM
I have, in the past, had issues with alcohol consumption to the point of being black-out drunk. I don't sample different vodka's and get drunk in an attempt to prove that everyone should be careful about alcohol consumption.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:40:44 AM
How wrong are we that we don't find those photos enticing when we look at them when you post them, if you SEEK THEM OUT KNOWING THEY CAUSE YOU TO SIN?

This isn't really the argument of the thread.

The point is your own monks see a sheer veil as a way they can fall into lust.  I posted several links to Eastern Orthodox monastic sites.  It's in their own writings.  End of story.

The photos are a quasi digress of the thread, of just how far things go and are accepted by excuse makers.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 12:42:42 AM
Care to address the monastery dress code and how monks want the same around them and cite the same reasons?

It's very simple, YiM.  House rules.  For example, if I invite you to my home, you take off your shoes.  That's because the place is clean and I'd like to keep it that way, not because I want to commit adultery in my heart with your feet. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 28, 2014, 12:43:01 AM
No, no it doesn't make your argument make any more sense whatsoever.


Seriously, join a Mennonite chat group. Quit using us as an excuse for looking at photos that cause you to fall. It doesn't change my view on the appropriateness of nude or semi nude baptism and theophany swimming.

Yes, go harass these Mennonite Women:
http://mennonitewomenusa.org/
There is plent of flashy colors and low ( by your standards) necklines. Get your own women in line first.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:44:25 AM
No, no this is PRECISELY the point of the thread. You need to take some personal accountability and get off your high horse. No one is demanding any of the photos you are posting. YOU are seeking these photos out. And if looking at these photos causes you to sin, WHY in the name of all things holy, are you seeking them out?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:45:13 AM
I have, in the past, had issues with alcohol consumption to the point of being black-out drunk. I don't sample different vodka's and get drunk in an attempt to prove that everyone should be careful about alcohol consumption.

I've not had a problem with pornography.  In my OP, I was merely showing photos of women, and the way certain men can see them if they were not appropriately dressed.  I repeated that I was not judging them and knew not their intent.  I said I was not "drooling", nor am I over a nude body at theophany.   But a glance happens, and that is a sin.

Many got mad and disagreed with me.  They get into the "It's even okay to be naked" arguments.......  I showed them how rough it was basically.

Look, if you admire the faith of monks in your own church, their own dress code backs most of my argument.   Just read their words.  You don't have to trust me at all.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 12:46:01 AM
Quote
Pure nudity in theophany -


I see something like the above photo, and can't imagine any sane Eastern Orthodox Christian believing this is appropriate during Theophany. 

(http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/004.jpg)

(http://copypast.ru/uploads/posts/1263869666_11.jpg)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 12:46:07 AM
How wrong are we that we don't find those photos enticing when we look at them when you post them, if you SEEK THEM OUT KNOWING THEY CAUSE YOU TO SIN?

That's a good point.  A multitude of "small holes" in a white sweater was immodest, showed too much skin, and incited lust in YiM.  Therefore, it would incite lust in any man.  Why, then, does he spend his internet time looking for half-naked women?  Not only does it cause him to sin, but he drags others along with him to hell.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:47:06 AM
No, no it doesn't make your argument make any more sense whatsoever.


Seriously, join a Mennonite chat group. Quit using us as an excuse for looking at photos that cause you to fall. It doesn't change my view on the appropriateness of nude or semi nude baptism and theophany swimming.

Yes, go harass these Mennonite Women:
http://mennonitewomenusa.org/
There is plent of flashy colors and low ( by your standards) necklines. Get your own women in line first.

That's not the Mennonite types I know.  They are liberal.   Most conservative Mennonites don't even recognize them as Mennonites.

Besides, this has nothing to do with the thread.   Read the monks, and just realize my intent was good.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 12:47:20 AM
I really don't have one per se.  I would hope modest..... Probably more along the lines that the monks would expect as a woman visits a monastery.   Men are men.  It is our faults completely.  I think it's a "helpful thing" to help us not to fall..... Like a courtesy.

The things in my OP weren't really all that bad to be honest.  But I was just trying to give some incite as to how some men would perceive things.  Obviously the monks dress code somewhat concurs.  

What about cultural differences? Don't you think that societal norms dictate in a large part what is perceived as attractive?

(http://estherburgeson.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/dat-ankle1.jpg)

That guy thinks her ankle is tempting, but I doubt highly that many (if any) men would today. Likewise what is attractive or sexual in one culture may not be here, and vice versa (for instance in Mali, breasts aren't viewed as sexual and are on full display).

My point is- there can't be a universal standard, and even if you tried to make a standard for a specific time and place, there is always going to be somebody that isn't satisfied with it (i.e. back flesh).
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 12:48:33 AM
(http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/004.jpg)

(http://copypast.ru/uploads/posts/1263869666_11.jpg)

Even the devils in the water are more modestly dressed than Jesus.  Just another reason why iconography is evil. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:48:40 AM
YIM-The longer you have posted in this thread, the less I trust you on the whole. You are, by your own admission, sinning by looking at these photos. But you persist in seeking them out, and looking at them. Your pants don't have to be unzipped, with a box of tissues near by, for you to be in sin, as you well know. You are trying to justify your own sin by saying you are "researching." Those photos don't cause me to sin in any way whatsoever. You claim most men would fall because of these photos. If you are indeed correct, you are KNOWINGLY causing other men to fall into sin with you.

How can you possibly justify that?

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:50:42 AM
How wrong are we that we don't find those photos enticing when we look at them when you post them, if you SEEK THEM OUT KNOWING THEY CAUSE YOU TO SIN?

That's a good point.  A multitude of "small holes" in a white sweater was immodest, showed too much skin, and incited lust in YiM.  Therefore, it would incite lust in any man.  Why, then, does he spend his internet time looking for half-naked women?  Not only does it cause him to sin, but he drags others along with him to hell.  

Be fair, as the thread digressed and you know it.  It went into masturbation, LGBT, and nudity, etc.

Read the monks, no tight clothing, no sheer veils.... I believe but am not sure that small holes in a sweater causing skin would probably not sit too well.

And just so many of you know, I've slept many nights at monasteries and been around a lot of monks.  You know what, I don't think any of the women (except for the ones in pants if that) would have been turned away, but they ASK them so they don't fall into lust.  That was the message of my argument.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:52:34 AM
No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 12:52:48 AM
It's an argument ender.  It's because the scriptures speak of women being modest, the monastery wants women to be modest, and OC.net people, don't seem so much.

Some people do not agree with your twisted definition of "modesty".

Quote
I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him. 

Indeed. He was naked. And baptism were done to the naked too. Swimsuits, robes and what so are no traditional at all.

(http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/kunst/moscow_school/russian_icon_baptism_christ_hi.jpg)

Wonder how females present reacted.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 12:52:48 AM
Would u please stop posting pictures of Orthodox women to incite public shaming and ridicule ?

There is nothing woman from his last pictured should be ashamed of or laughed at.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 12:52:48 AM
This is not baptism. It's pagan Russian tradition for Epiphany.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 12:52:48 AM
I would be doing what that Bishop is doing in the picture...staring at the icewater and imagining that it is actually Nancy Pelosi getting nakie.  Otherwise, I might think some sinful thoughts.

Where do you see a bishop?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 12:52:48 AM
The naked woman on my last link was linked to be "bathing for the theophany".   In other words wallowing around naked in front of her church.

Most churches are not built on rivers IIRC.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 12:52:53 AM
But a glance happens, and that is a sin.

A glance as in, "Oh look! An attractive person. Oh look! A puppy." ?

What if a streaker went running by me and I glanced over and saw his nakedness. Did I sin just by noticing someone running by me? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:54:59 AM
YIM-The longer you have posted in this thread, the less I trust you on the whole. You are, by your own admission, sinning by looking at these photos. But you persist in seeking them out, and looking at them. Your pants don't have to be unzipped, with a box of tissues near by, for you to be in sin, as you well know. You are trying to justify your own sin by saying you are "researching." Those photos don't cause me to sin in any way whatsoever. You claim most men would fall because of these photos. If you are indeed correct, you are KNOWINGLY causing other men to fall into sin with you.

How can you possibly justify that?


I didn't  POST it on the internet, it existed.

Did I not say if they'll fall into lust don't click?  LOL
Did I not warn.

Each makes his own decision.

And just so you know, I wasn't gawking at the photo.  Men are going to notice breasts.  In fact, I didn't have to SEEK out the photo....  

Simply do this.

Go to google

Type in --   orthodox baptism

Then click images

Scroll down a bit, and you'll see the exact photo I posted.  It's right there.

So if you want to blame me for "seeking it out", well it was in my face as an example of EO baptism on google.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 12:56:29 AM
How wrong are we that we don't find those photos enticing when we look at them when you post them, if you SEEK THEM OUT KNOWING THEY CAUSE YOU TO SIN?

That's a good point.  A multitude of "small holes" in a white sweater was immodest, showed too much skin, and incited lust in YiM.  Therefore, it would incite lust in any man.  Why, then, does he spend his internet time looking for half-naked women?  Not only does it cause him to sin, but he drags others along with him to hell.  

Be fair, as the thread digressed and you know it.  It went into masturbation, LGBT, and nudity, etc.

Read the monks, no tight clothing, no sheer veils.... I believe but am not sure that small holes in a sweater causing skin would probably not sit too well.

And just so many of you know, I've slept many nights at monasteries and been around a lot of monks.  You know what, I don't think any of the women (except for the ones in pants if that) would have been turned away, but they ASK them so they don't fall into lust.  That was the message of my argument.

Hey, I agreed with you. Monks are weird too. They are not the height of Christian life. Sorry. They are just living another vocation like any other. After all the legendary men of Athos can't even fathom a woman being amongst them. Sounds pathological to me, but hey, maybe in another 1000 years or so some spiritual development will occur. I dunno.

Everyone here doesn't follow the monastic rule in anything else, so why should they use the monastic rule for how woman are to be dressed when in mixed company?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 12:56:54 AM
(http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/004.jpg)

(http://copypast.ru/uploads/posts/1263869666_11.jpg)

Even the devils in the water are more modestly dressed than Jesus.  Just another reason why iconography is evil. 

Mor, you're priceless!  ;D :laugh:
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 12:57:17 AM
This is not baptism. It's pagan Russian tradition for Epiphany.

That's what a thought, thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 12:57:58 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:58:12 AM
It's an argument ender.  It's because the scriptures speak of women being modest, the monastery wants women to be modest, and OC.net people, don't seem so much.

Some people do not agree with your twisted definition of "modesty".

Quote
I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him. 

Indeed. He was naked. And baptism were done to the naked too. Swimsuits, robes and what so are no traditional at all.

(http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/kunst/moscow_school/russian_icon_baptism_christ_hi.jpg)

Wonder how females present reacted.

Did the icon tell you he was naked, or tradition, or the bible?
And what women were present, the traditional ones?

Despite this issue, my OP sticks right with the monk's dress code cited for their very reasons.  If you guys want to prove me wrong about naked baptism, feel free.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 12:58:57 AM
What if a streaker went running by me and I glanced over and saw his nakedness. Did I sin just by noticing someone running by me? I don't think so.

Actually yes; again, one needs to understand what "sin" is
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 12:59:21 AM
Men are going to notice breasts.

So do women. I noticed them. They are really NBD.

Were you breastfed? I was. Bare breasts can be lovely, but really they have to be contexualized in some manner for them to be sexual.

Have you been hanging out with Kerdy?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 12:59:30 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 12:59:36 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

Precisely. Yesh, the corner you've painted yourself into must be the size of a postage stamp by now ...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:00:22 AM
What if a streaker went running by me and I glanced over and saw his nakedness. Did I sin just by noticing someone running by me? I don't think so.

Actually yes; again, one needs to understand what "sin" is

LOL.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:00:27 AM
What if a streaker went running by me and I glanced over and saw his nakedness. Did I sin just by noticing someone running by me? I don't think so.

Actually yes; again, one needs to understand what "sin" is

Having eyes that work? No.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: SolEX01 on January 28, 2014, 01:01:28 AM
YIM-The longer you have posted in this thread, the less I trust you on the whole. You are, by your own admission, sinning by looking at these photos. But you persist in seeking them out, and looking at them. Your pants don't have to be unzipped, with a box of tissues near by, for you to be in sin, as you well know. You are trying to justify your own sin by saying you are "researching." Those photos don't cause me to sin in any way whatsoever. You claim most men would fall because of these photos. If you are indeed correct, you are KNOWINGLY causing other men to fall into sin with you.

How can you possibly justify that?


I didn't  POST it on the internet, it existed.

Did I not say if they'll fall into lust don't click?  LOL
Did I not warn.

Each makes his own decision.

Are you sharing this experience with your wife and children or are you enjoying selfie time on the computer?

Plus, I didn't know there were African-American, Hispanic and Native American Mennonites.  I guess they aren't in your group?   ???

So if you want to blame me for "seeking it out", well it was in my face as an example of EO baptism on google.

All you've done is appeal from emotion of your so called "disgust".
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:01:44 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:02:37 AM
Have you been hanging out with Kerdy?

No doubt. Some of the attitudes towards breasts around here have crossed over from neurosis to psychosis.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 01:03:00 AM
Have you been hanging out with Kerdy?

Probably not "hanging"...Otherwise they wouldn't be having this problem.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:03:25 AM
In context of my OP, I believe my arguments were pretty well shown to hold ground when monks dress code validates even stating the reasons for - lust.


On the other topic of naked baptism, look I think it absolutely would cause men to fall in the church, and so do those women in Theophany.  Those women though I don't know their intent, it's their business.  If I saw that live at church with my children, we would be leaving.

On that note, if you guys want to attend services naked, I guess that's your business.  My OP was really the point of the thread.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:04:26 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.

Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 01:05:17 AM
So, are you offended when infants are baptized nude?

YIM, you really should stop. The soil is up to your neck now.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: DeniseDenise on January 28, 2014, 01:05:28 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.


I just went and did the same search, and yes...its there...but its ONE picture out of 75 that has anything even questionable about it.

A question....

Why were you googling for 'Orthodox Baptism' to find images for this thread to begin with?  Clearly the vast majority would be normal photos....

If you were looking for more pictures of 'immodesty' thats a pretty poor search for it...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: augustin717 on January 28, 2014, 01:05:49 AM
(http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/004.jpg)

(http://copypast.ru/uploads/posts/1263869666_11.jpg)

Even the devils in the water are more modestly dressed than Jesus.  Just another reason why iconography is evil. 
Are they covering their head, cuz I can't see?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 01:06:49 AM
What if a streaker went running by me and I glanced over and saw his nakedness. Did I sin just by noticing someone running by me? I don't think so.

Actually yes; again, one needs to understand what "sin" is

Having eyes that work? No.

Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:07:39 AM
Some of the attitudes towards breasts around here have crossed over from neurosis to psychosis.

It is for this reason that I recommend such men get fat.  Once you grow a set of your own, there's nothing sexual about them.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 01:08:05 AM
On that note, if you guys want to attend services naked, I guess that's your business.

Well that'd certainly save me time getting dressed in the morning but I image it'd get weird during the prostrations.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 01:08:13 AM
(http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/004.jpg)

(http://copypast.ru/uploads/posts/1263869666_11.jpg)

Even the devils in the water are more modestly dressed than Jesus.  Just another reason why iconography is evil. 
Are they covering their head, cuz I can't see?

The one on the right in the second icon is wearing something on its head.  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 01:08:31 AM
In context of my OP, I believe my arguments were pretty well shown to hold ground when monks dress code validates even stating the reasons for - lust.

No, in the context of this thread your argument falls completely apart. Indeed; in the context of this thread it is proven that even with women dressed very modestly, men can seek out photos that will cause them to sin if they desire to. Because that is precisely what you have done.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:08:52 AM
YIM-The longer you have posted in this thread, the less I trust you on the whole. You are, by your own admission, sinning by looking at these photos. But you persist in seeking them out, and looking at them. Your pants don't have to be unzipped, with a box of tissues near by, for you to be in sin, as you well know. You are trying to justify your own sin by saying you are "researching." Those photos don't cause me to sin in any way whatsoever. You claim most men would fall because of these photos. If you are indeed correct, you are KNOWINGLY causing other men to fall into sin with you.

How can you possibly justify that?


I didn't  POST it on the internet, it existed.

Did I not say if they'll fall into lust don't click?  LOL
Did I not warn.

Each makes his own decision.

Are you sharing this experience with your wife and children or are you enjoying selfie time on the computer?

Plus, I didn't know there were African-American, Hispanic and Native American Mennonites.  I guess they aren't in your group?   ???

So if you want to blame me for "seeking it out", well it was in my face as an example of EO baptism on google.

All you've done is appeal from emotion of your so called "disgust".

There are Mennonites all over the world.   Deep into Africa, Russia, "underground" in China, Canada, South America, Australia, Asia, Islands....

Some branches have one presiding bishop over several congregations (sort of like EO).
Some branches have a bishop per church.

I agree with the Mennonite faith on many biblical levels.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:09:00 AM
LOL!!!!!!

I kid you not this is what comes up THIRD for me on a google image search for yeshuaisiam

(http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/playboy_450x400.jpg)

LOL!

Mods, I figured this was OK, since it was posted here at oc.net.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:10:26 AM
In context of my OP, I believe my arguments were pretty well shown to hold ground when monks dress code validates even stating the reasons for - lust.

No, in the context of this thread your argument falls completely apart. Indeed; in the context of this thread it is proven that even with women dressed very modestly, men can seek out photos that will cause them to sin if they desire to. Because that is precisely what you have done.

Look, I'm not going to laugh.  Please stop.

The monks dress code exists.  Get over it.  They don't want sheer veils because of concerns about lust.  It's in their own writing.  If you are offended by the photos, those people are in communion with YOU.  I didn't DO IT.  Is it better to be blind?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:11:12 AM
Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.

By that logic sleeping is sinful. I think we've crossed the line into the ridiculous.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:11:40 AM
Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.

God is so immoral.  Scripture talks about him as having "knit" us together in our mothers' wombs, but you'd think he'd bother to knit some clothes.  Instead, we are actually born naked.  Surely he knows how sexually tempting nudity is?  Why would he do that?  How hard is it for God to knit a pair of underpants?  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 01:12:28 AM
*I* am not offended by the photos. I really could care less. I am offended at you using posting on this thread as a justification to seek out photos that cause you to sin.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: SolEX01 on January 28, 2014, 01:13:13 AM
On the other topic of naked baptism, look I think it absolutely would cause men to fall in the church, and so do those women in Theophany.  Those women though I don't know their intent, it's their business.  If I saw that live at church with my children, we would be leaving.

What about your wife?  Does she have an opinion?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:13:23 AM
Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.

By that logic sleeping is sinful. I think we've crossed the line into the ridiculous.

Well, it is Jamesology.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 01:13:31 AM
In context of my OP, I believe my arguments were pretty well shown to hold ground when monks dress code validates even stating the reasons for - lust.

No, in the context of this thread your argument falls completely apart. Indeed; in the context of this thread it is proven that even with women dressed very modestly, men can seek out photos that will cause them to sin if they desire to. Because that is precisely what you have done.

Look, I'm not going to laugh.  Please stop.

The monks dress code exists.  Get over it.  They don't want sheer veils because of concerns about lust.  It's in their own writing.  If you are offended by the photos, those people are in communion with YOU.  I didn't DO IT.  Is it better to be blind?

You're the one doing Google searches and selecting "salacious" photos, not us. You're the one who "falls" at a glimpse of "back flesh", not us. You're the one who regards tiny holes in a woman's sleeve "immodest".

None of this is healthy, yesh. None of it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:13:40 AM
LOL!!!!!!

I kid you not this is what comes up THIRD for me on a google image search for yeshuaisiam

(http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/playboy_450x400.jpg)

LOL!

Mods, I figured this was OK, since it was posted here at oc.net.

I know.  That is from this forum where somebody argued with me about head coverings.
It was ialmisry that posted that photo in the thread.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:14:31 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.

Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.

Offended by what, a naked child? Don't you have kids? I lived with a kid for a long time. I had to touch his penis, anus, all sortsa stuff in order to properly care for him. We showered together when he was younger. It was NBD.

Who is the tween here? You mentioned falling because of women and then mention naked children in the same breath. It is confusing.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:15:25 AM
Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.

By that logic sleeping is sinful. I think we've crossed the line into the ridiculous.

And yet read of the vigils held by the Saints. And about the prayer of the heart. JamesR isn't so ridiculous.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:15:46 AM
In context of my OP, I believe my arguments were pretty well shown to hold ground when monks dress code validates even stating the reasons for - lust.

No, in the context of this thread your argument falls completely apart. Indeed; in the context of this thread it is proven that even with women dressed very modestly, men can seek out photos that will cause them to sin if they desire to. Because that is precisely what you have done.

Look, I'm not going to laugh.  Please stop.

The monks dress code exists.  Get over it.  They don't want sheer veils because of concerns about lust.  It's in their own writing.  If you are offended by the photos, those people are in communion with YOU.  I didn't DO IT.  Is it better to be blind?

You're the one doing Google searches and selecting "salacious" photos, not us. You're the one who "falls" at a glimpse of "back flesh", not us. You're the one who regards tiny holes in a woman's sleeve "immodest".

None of this is healthy, yesh. None of it.

Do I have to correct each one of you?

Fine if you don't lust for such things, that's fine.

But the MONKS DRESS CODE backs up my argument that I posted.  I gave 3 links.   They didn't want to lust for women, even with sheer veils, as I stated in my OP.

The unhealthy part is the EO Christians failing to recognize these flaws in some men, even their own monks, nor the sisters to recognize that they can help their brothers not to fall.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:16:45 AM
Are they covering their head, cuz I can't see?

The one on the right in the second icon is wearing something on its head.  ;)

Each devil is also wearing a loincloth, which is more what I had in mind. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:18:24 AM
Some of the attitudes towards breasts around here have crossed over from neurosis to psychosis.

It is for this reason that I recommend such men get fat.  Once you grow a set of your own, there's nothing sexual about them.  

(http://imageserve.babycenter.com/5/000/221/j8Bv5MfqLq8gUdU6NXghNDh6A5zI8iR1_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:18:32 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.

Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.

Offended by what, a naked child? Don't you have kids? I lived with a kid for a long time. I had to touch his penis, anus, all sortsa stuff in order to properly care for him. We showered together when he was younger. It was NBD.

Who is the tween here? You mentioned falling because of women and then mention naked children in the same breath. It is confusing.

Blah, it's offensive.

Poor kid.

Quit twisting stuff up.   Text doesn't have breaths.  Poor kid getting held in front of this whole church butt naked.  I would have been mortified at that child's age.


Look bro, if you want to go to church naked, have naked women at church, and don't think a 7 or whatever year old naked child is wrong, that's your business.  Whatever.

My OP was the point of the thread - backed up with the same concerns of EO monks.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:20:30 AM
nor the sisters to recognize that they can help their brothers not to fall.

For the millionth time: NO WE CAN'T.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:21:02 AM
Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.

By that logic sleeping is sinful. I think we've crossed the line into the ridiculous.

Well, it is Jamesology.  

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:21:43 AM
My OP was the point of the thread - backed up with the same concerns of EO monks.

Reply #438.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:21:57 AM
Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.

By that logic sleeping is sinful. I think we've crossed the line into the ridiculous.

And yet read of the vigils held by the Saints. And about the prayer of the heart. JamesR isn't so ridiculous.

A topic for another thread, but I don't agree with his definition of sin.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:22:16 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:22:26 AM
nor the sisters to recognize that they can help their brothers not to fall.

For the millionth time: NO WE CAN'T.

Well the EO monks ask you not to wear sheer veils....
 ::)

They don't want to be tempted.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:24:28 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.

Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.

Offended by what, a naked child? Don't you have kids? I lived with a kid for a long time. I had to touch his penis, anus, all sortsa stuff in order to properly care for him. We showered together when he was younger. It was NBD.

Who is the tween here? You mentioned falling because of women and then mention naked children in the same breath. It is confusing.

Blah, it's offensive.

Poor kid.

So my catering to a child's care which means applying ointment and the like to his penis and anus is offensive? Bathing together is offensive?

Is this just women's work? Or do the kids just change their own diapers in your house?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 01:24:50 AM
Some of the attitudes towards breasts around here have crossed over from neurosis to psychosis.

It is for this reason that I recommend such men get fat.  Once you grow a set of your own, there's nothing sexual about them.  

(http://imageserve.babycenter.com/5/000/221/j8Bv5MfqLq8gUdU6NXghNDh6A5zI8iR1_lg.jpg)

That's a lot of neckline there  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:25:53 AM
Sin is anything that distracts you from Theosis. Technically I'm sinning by posting on this site when I should be praying or whatever.

By that logic sleeping is sinful. I think we've crossed the line into the ridiculous.

And yet read of the vigils held by the Saints. And about the prayer of the heart. JamesR isn't so ridiculous.

A topic for another thread, but I don't agree with his definition of sin.

James' definition, as it is in the quote above (and just there), isn't so bad.  It's the examples with which I take issue.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 01:26:34 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859


Why are you posting here YIM? Go post over there about how evil those Orthodox are. Oh wait, they would wonder why you are posting these photos for everyone else to see if you believe it will make them fall.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:26:46 AM
That's a lot of neckline there  ;)

You're right. I apologize. I change my gif to this:

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzlo260dhW1qzlvmi.gif)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:27:11 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:28:05 AM
Some of the attitudes towards breasts around here have crossed over from neurosis to psychosis.

It is for this reason that I recommend such men get fat.  Once you grow a set of your own, there's nothing sexual about them.  

(http://imageserve.babycenter.com/5/000/221/j8Bv5MfqLq8gUdU6NXghNDh6A5zI8iR1_lg.jpg)

That's a lot of neckline there  ;)

She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 01:29:15 AM
Poor kid getting held in front of this whole church butt naked. I would have been mortified at that child's age.

When I was 7 I used to tie the towel around my neck like a cape after a shower and run around saying I was Batman. I wouldn't have been too mortified. I see my little toddler sister naked all the time when I help her in the bathroom or change her clothing; when she was a baby I had to occasionally apply some type of ointment on her privates when changing her diapers. It's nbd really. Nudity is a daily part of life.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 01:30:09 AM
Actually, yes she would be allowed in a monastery. As I have stated several times, shirts with that type of neckline were worn by my daughter's godmother when she attended an Orthodox monastic boarding school. And my own children have attended a local monastery with similar shirts, with the addition of a head covering.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:30:17 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:30:23 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.

Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.

Offended by what, a naked child? Don't you have kids? I lived with a kid for a long time. I had to touch his penis, anus, all sortsa stuff in order to properly care for him. We showered together when he was younger. It was NBD.

Who is the tween here? You mentioned falling because of women and then mention naked children in the same breath. It is confusing.

Blah, it's offensive.

Poor kid.

So my catering to a child's care which means applying ointment and the like to his penis and anus is offensive? Bathing together is offensive?

Is this just women's work? Or do the kids just change their own diapers in your house?

Naked in church in front of everybody.....  Probably between the ages of 6-8....  Horrible.

Can you please stop.  Seriously grow up.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: ZealousZeal on January 28, 2014, 01:30:39 AM
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

So what? Why do you keep bringing that up as if it proves something? That doesn't mean she's immodest.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Asteriktos on January 28, 2014, 01:30:43 AM
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

No woman would be allowed to stay with me (let alone sleep with me) at many Orthodox monasteries. That doesn't mean I would try to apply the same rule outside the monastery.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 01:31:46 AM
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

I love how you take the rule for exactly one monastery and presume that everyone has the same exact rule.  I've been to a number of monasteries: each has its own rules, some are less strict than others, and in every one of them I've seen exceptions to their stated rules allowed by the monastery authorities.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 01:32:38 AM
I reiterate:

No, you are using posting here as an excuse to sin by your own admission. There is zero justification for that. You are simply WRONG and are in sin by seeking out photos that cause you to sin. There is no wiggle room out of this. You tied your own noose.

Your computer didn't spontaneously show you these photos. You sought them out when you did an internet search you knew would come up with the photos.

When I go to google, type in  --- Orthodox baptism
click images

And see a woman holding her naked breasts in a frozen body of water - NO I didn't expect that.  Nor the 7 or whatever year old naked child.

So naked children arouse you as well? I am getting confused.

Are we tweens or something? Grow up.  I was very offended.  Poor child.

Offended by what, a naked child? Don't you have kids? I lived with a kid for a long time. I had to touch his penis, anus, all sortsa stuff in order to properly care for him. We showered together when he was younger. It was NBD.

Who is the tween here? You mentioned falling because of women and then mention naked children in the same breath. It is confusing.

Blah, it's offensive.

Poor kid.

So my catering to a child's care which means applying ointment and the like to his penis and anus is offensive? Bathing together is offensive?

Is this just women's work? Or do the kids just change their own diapers in your house?

Naked in church in front of everybody.....  Probably between the ages of 6-8....  Horrible.

Can you please stop.  Seriously grow up.



You are being unclear. If I talk about raising a kid, you respond with: offensive!

It is unclear.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: JamesR on January 28, 2014, 01:33:22 AM
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

Maybe not, but monks aren't the amazing beacons of the Orthodox faith that people often portray them as. In fact, I imagine that many of them would genuinely deny it as well and wouldn't approve of us using their standards to resolve these types of things.

Many people are monks because they're the weakest sinners and need more intensive care.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 01:43:10 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:43:51 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

Well at the end of the day I'm known as Yeshuaisiam.

I do post things as genuine concerns, but also as side stepped questions to groups of people from positions that I am involved in.  It's complicated.  At times I may appear as a newbie, and other times versed.  I do this in basis to discern truthful and false statements in others in theology.  There have been a lot of mean men in charge, and mucking the muck to try to find truth is a difficult task.

Just like this thread, I completely knew I was going to post the monastery dress code links after being "torn apart", and knew after that that people would "ridicule" an avatar "me" on subjects not in conjunction with the op.  The point being to help people think as they ridicule their own monastics code of dress for the very reason I posted.  The irony runs wild.

I do the same with the Anabaptists, Messianic Jews, and Seventh Day Adventists.

But I'm glad you found it.  

Just like on Mennodiscuss, there are many Mennonites who do not even know their own faith.  Ironically the ones on the board vary, but most come from liberal groups who allow the internet.

I have found other Yeshuaisiam nicknames, which is interesting...

It makes no difference, for me I can vanish at the drop of a coin, pop a proxy, and I'm a new man.  

But I've been respectful to this forums rules to have one nickname.



Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:45:29 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 01:46:12 AM
if God is without sin and would not lust after his children, WHO is that dress code for and WHO does it protect, and why?

Talking about clothing women in various ways as a form of protection is disgusting.

Yeah it is. That's like cutting someone's ear off to "protect" them from an ear infection or circumcising your son to "protect" him from dirty foreskin when all it takes is 10 seconds in the shower every morning.

But yet nobody has any reason at all for the dress code of the monastery.

It's an argument ender.  It's because the scriptures speak of women being modest, the monastery wants women to be modest, and OC.net people, don't seem so much.

My argument has been twisted and contorted so much.   The women in my OP - I was just sharing my own personal weakness.   It's my own sin.

Sisters and brothers should protect each other though, and if women dress to make men fall that is wrong.  I am not accusing the women in my OP.

However, the bikini women, it goes against scripture.   I don't believe Christ intended his baptism to have women dressed in lewdness diving in after him. 
Nudity ≠ lewdness
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 01:47:48 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 01:48:21 AM
No intent at all.  Even though women were told to dress modestly in the scriptures.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/19/article-2265166-1708CD53000005DC-866_634x425.jpg)

I think a problem here is that "modesty" is subjective and defined by society. People often think that modesty means 19th century or something when in reality what is modest depends on what culture deems modest at the time.
For once, James, I agree with you. :)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 01:50:26 AM
That makes perfect sense. They were probably going to immediately wrap her in warm blankets without wasting time to remove freezing water logged layers

And that's why sailors traditionally wore bell bottoms.  To be able to quickly take them off over boots if they fell in the water
And they can be used as a personal flotation device.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:51:25 AM
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

Maybe not, but monks aren't the amazing beacons of the Orthodox faith that people often portray them as. In fact, I imagine that many of them would genuinely deny it as well and wouldn't approve of us using their standards to resolve these types of things.

Many people are monks because they're the weakest sinners and need more intensive care.

I use their standards because it shows the example of how weak some people are, even to a trivial think like a sheer veil.   Again James, trust me, I ain't drooling.  It's a notice.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:53:12 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 01:58:32 AM
Poor kid getting held in front of this whole church butt naked. I would have been mortified at that child's age.

When I was 7 I used to tie the towel around my neck like a cape after a shower and run around saying I was Batman. I wouldn't have been too mortified. I see my little toddler sister naked all the time when I help her in the bathroom or change her clothing; when she was a baby I had to occasionally apply some type of ointment on her privates when changing her diapers. It's nbd really. Nudity is a daily part of life.

Hehe James,

Did you do that at school?

What about in front of your folks church?

As I said, poor kid.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 02:01:11 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.

Deflection? You've been doing it throughout the thread, dumping the burden on women who don't dress to your impossibly scrupulous standards for your "failing".

I'll ask again: what effort are you making in overcoming this "weakness" of yours? Yet to hear an answer from you on that.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 02:06:31 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 02:29:13 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 02:32:27 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".  Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 02:34:30 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.

Deflection? You've been doing it throughout the thread, dumping the burden on women who don't dress to your impossibly scrupulous standards for your "failing".

I'll ask again: what effort are you making in overcoming this "weakness" of yours? Yet to hear an answer from you on that.

So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 02:36:08 AM
Actually, yes she would be allowed in a monastery. As I have stated several times, shirts with that type of neckline were worn by my daughter's godmother when she attended an Orthodox monastic boarding school. And my own children have attended a local monastery with similar shirts, with the addition of a head covering.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 02:39:15 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 02:43:16 AM
I don't know how to run my daughter's PC very well. And I am trapped beneath a sleeping baby as well as a sleeping toddler. Otherwise I would go get on my Mac and provide links to pix etc. But if you do image searches for St. Paisius Serbian monastery school, you might be able to pull up some pix of what I have mentioned regarding dress at a monastery.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 02:46:39 AM
If you do some google searches for Goldendale Monastery, you might be able to find some more.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 02:50:13 AM
I don't know how to run my daughter's PC very well. And I am trapped beneath a sleeping baby as well as a sleeping toddler. But if you do searches for St. Paisius Serbian monastery school, you might be able to pull up some pix of what I have mentioned regarding dress at a monastery.

Heh, I'm trapped in a barn with 3 goats in labor and its 29F at 1:07am in Texas.  At least it makes for good fun argument on OC.net.  I'm getting a whopping 10k a second via wifi on a 30dbi parabolic grid antenna shooting back to my house!  My screen has that dim hue to it because its so cold.  The heater is NOT helping!  But been there done that with the babies.  It does sort of stink, but as you know, time flies.... Children indeed are a heritage.... :)

Anyway,
I have dress codes from monasteries, what more can I say?  If they concur with sheer veils causing lust then hey I'm not alone.  Doesn't matter what other monasteries say.  I have 3 links, and can get you a lot more.  Other men suffer the same exact thing who are EO Christians.  Basically that was my point.  They ask sisters to help them not fall, and will refuse them at a monastery.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 02:52:13 AM
I find it remarkable that yesh gets all tied in knots over the glimpse of bare skin, yet has no qualms over speculating about the sex life of St Joseph and the Mother of God.

Here's the thread he started on the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 02:54:56 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Romaios on January 28, 2014, 02:55:02 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

There are various rules and codes in the Orthodox Churches regarding clothing, for laymen, clergy or monastics - for Baptism (shedding the old skin of sin) one is to be stark naked. (As a side note, when Jewish men or women perform their ritual baths in a mikve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikveh), nothing is to come between their skin and the water. That's always been the rule.)

You are implying that people who are being baptized transgress some monastic dress code, which is utterly ridiculous.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 02:56:13 AM
So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.

Reply #438.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 02:56:52 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.

Deflection? You've been doing it throughout the thread, dumping the burden on women who don't dress to your impossibly scrupulous standards for your "failing".

I'll ask again: what effort are you making in overcoming this "weakness" of yours? Yet to hear an answer from you on that.

So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.

Ahem. Dress codes for monasteries are not impossible, and a great many do not require the sorts of coverage you regard as necessary even in a parish setting.

OTOH, your standard is indeed impossible, short of a burqa or monastic habit.

And you are, again, refusing to answer the question of "what are you doing to overcome your weakness?"
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 02:59:45 AM
I find it remarkable that yesh gets all tied in knots over the glimpse of bare skin, yet has no qualms over speculating about the sex life of St Joseph and the Mother of God.

Here's the thread he started on the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

I find it remarkable that you don't agree with my OP yet the monks in your own church basically state the exact same things for the exact reason in their dress code.

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:00:52 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:02:11 AM

"Pray without ceasing."

It's biblical.

Titus 1:15. It's biblical:

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Good point.   I guess let's all get naked and be pure, like Adam and Eve (forget God making them clothes) Let's go nudist, because the monks dress code matters not.

God made clothes for Adam and Eve after they had sinned. Before that, they were pure. Just as a baby or little child is pure. The Orthodox funeral service for a deceased child is quite different from that for other laymen. It is full of references to the purity, blessedness and innocence of these little ones.

Yet you even have a problem with baptismal nakedness for children.

More digression.

A baby is a baby and doesn't care.

That poor kid in the photo was old enough to be mortified....

Ah nevermind.

Deflection? You've been doing it throughout the thread, dumping the burden on women who don't dress to your impossibly scrupulous standards for your "failing".

I'll ask again: what effort are you making in overcoming this "weakness" of yours? Yet to hear an answer from you on that.

So why do monks enforce the dress code?  Why do they dump the burden on women who don't dress to "their" impossibly scrupulous standards for them "falling"?

Interesting.

Ahem. Dress codes for monasteries are not impossible, and a great many do not require the sorts of coverage you regard as necessary even in a parish setting.

OTOH, your standard is indeed impossible, short of a burqa or monastic habit.

And you are, again, refusing to answer the question of "what are you doing to overcome your weakness?"

I pray and work on my weakness consistently.

I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

If monks fall into lust over the exact same thing that I mentioned, then I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 03:03:05 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

BTW, what is this "command" you would like to enforce upon all of us?

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Romaios on January 28, 2014, 03:03:38 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

We all were, at one age or another.  ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 03:04:28 AM
I find it remarkable that yesh gets all tied in knots over the glimpse of bare skin, yet has no qualms over speculating about the sex life of St Joseph and the Mother of God.

Here's the thread he started on the topic:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0/all.html

I find it remarkable that you don't agree with my OP yet the monks in your own church basically state the exact same things for the exact reason in their dress code.



More deflection. How is it that a glimpse of skin makes you "fall", yet you have no qualms on talking about the sex life of the holiest and purest woman ever to have walked the earth?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:04:45 AM
Can you find a single link to a monastic saying that all people should dress like they are attending services at a monastery? Do the guidelines state that everyone must *always* dress in that manner no matter where they are? No, they do not have those types of guidelines.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:06:03 AM
How does seeking out images that incite you, help you to work on your weakness? You have yet to present a single argument that justifies that.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 03:07:10 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 03:07:46 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:08:30 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?

Monastics are men who fall into lust as any man can.

They setup a dress code in recognition for their weaknesses.  The weaknesses I submitted that I have (though small) are weaknesses.   They recognize these things as I do.  Thus the monastery sets up a dress code to prevent women causing them to fall.  Women are sometimes turned away due to their dress because the monks don't want to fall into lust.

It's the recognition that men fall for simple things, even sheer veils that I was pointing out.  As the ridicule flies in the thread, the irony ran wild as the EO monks state the same basic stuff.

My hope is that women will see that some men fall (even monastics) even in small ways into lust over simple things, such as a sheer veil.   I hope women will take this into consideration on how they dress in front of their brothers in Christ, and amongst other people.

For that I think a woman should see a monastery request, and consider why it is they requested that, and know other men may have the same weakness.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:10:03 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:11:56 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code. 
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 03:12:23 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?

It was no big deal. I dodged the puritanical thing. I felt bad for a few of the new kidz on the block who struggled with the digital exam. They were embarrassed at their own lack of technical expertise.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:13:33 AM
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 03:14:58 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 03:15:22 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

You keep saying "even the monks". I've already told you they are not paragons of virtue or anything. So what is your point? They are a group of men who have decided to live together forever without having sexual relations with women.

Sorry, but I am not going to take the rules regarding the how women should dress based by such a group too seriously as binding on the rest of the world.

As * pointed out, you can't have sex with your wife (within the rules) at a monastery, so should you never have sex with her?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:16:29 AM
Can you find a single link to a monastic saying that all people should dress like they are attending services at a monastery? Do the guidelines state that everyone must *always* dress in that manner no matter where they are? No, they do not have those types of guidelines.

It wasn't my point.  You live in a world of direct orders obviously.  The point of me showing their dress code was because it shows that other men are weak, including EO monks, over trivial issues such as a sheer veil.  I only advocate that women consider this for their brothers, that is all.  

Christianity exists outside of the church as well.  That includes people are Christians when they go to the store, camping, and to a monastery.  

I hope women consider how easily men fall, as I admit, and the dress codes of monks admit.  
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 03:17:08 AM
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

It's not out of the question that is part of the reason for those who aren't likely homosexual.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 03:17:51 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?

Monastics are men who fall into lust as any man can.

They setup a dress code in recognition for their weaknesses.  The weaknesses I submitted that I have (though small) are weaknesses.   They recognize these things as I do.  Thus the monastery sets up a dress code to prevent women causing them to fall.  Women are sometimes turned away due to their dress because the monks don't want to fall into lust.

It's the recognition that men fall for simple things, even sheer veils that I was pointing out.  As the ridicule flies in the thread, the irony ran wild as the EO monks state the same basic stuff.

My hope is that women will see that some men fall (even monastics) even in small ways into lust over simple things, such as a sheer veil.   I hope women will take this into consideration on how they dress in front of their brothers in Christ, and amongst other people.

For that I think a woman should see a monastery request, and consider why it is they requested that, and know other men may have the same weakness.
Speaking as a man, I can agree with some of the points you raise. I am weak in the eyes and find myself often distracted by what I see of women in revealing outfits. However, I take responsibility for my weakness. I may even communicate, as I am doing now, that this is my weakness in the hope that some women will be sympathetic. I do not blame them, though, for causing me to fall, which it seems you are doing. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness. If a woman wants to be sympathetic and dress in such a manner that she doesn't become an undue distraction for me, then that is her choice. I will even praise her for her modesty. But that is her choice, for which she will have to give her own account before God on Judgment Day. I will not blame her for distracting me if she doesn't dress modestly, for all I can do is take responsibility for my own failure to keep my eyes where they need to be. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:18:45 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.

Blaming women - where?
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:19:35 AM
No, that is entirely the point.

Listen, most stores have a no shoes, no shirt, no service rule. That doesn't mean that I wear shoes/shirt into the swimming pool.

Many classy restaurants have rules that state that men must wear a dinner jacket. That doesn't mean that all men must always wear a dinner jacket.

You dress for the occasion. When going to a monastery, you dress accordingly. That doesn't mean all people should dress that way all the time.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:20:55 AM
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

It's not out of the question that is part of the reason for those who aren't likely homosexual.

It's actually written out in one of the monastery links I posted (about lust/sexual desire).  But also they require men to wear sleeves and no shorts as some monks may struggle for that. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 03:21:05 AM
Can you find a single link to a monastic saying that all people should dress like they are attending services at a monastery? Do the guidelines state that everyone must *always* dress in that manner no matter where they are? No, they do not have those types of guidelines.

It wasn't my point.  You live in a world of direct orders obviously.  The point of me showing their dress code was because it shows that other men are weak, including EO monks, over trivial issues such as a sheer veil.  I only advocate that women consider this for their brothers, that is all.  

Christianity exists outside of the church as well.  That includes people are Christians when they go to the store, camping, and to a monastery.  

I hope women consider how easily men fall, as I admit, and the dress codes of monks admit.  

You're still going on about "how easy" it is for men to "fall". Yet men have posted on this thread showing you that this is not at all true.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: orthonorm on January 28, 2014, 03:21:43 AM
OK, it's late and what am I doing? I am going to go read about a guy who is a libertine compared to our dear YiM, Mohamed.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:22:22 AM
In all the guidelines I have seen for proper attire at a monastery, I have never seen anything in those guidelines about causing the monks to sin/lust. I have seen terms like; in order to be respectful etc. and the like. I have never seen it stated that anything less than the guidelines is going to cause the resident monastics to get hot and bothered.

It's not out of the question that is part of the reason for those who aren't likely homosexual.

No, it isn't out of the question that temptation is one of the reasons, or even part of the reason. But we do indeed attend a church that upholds tradition. And it isn't inconceivable that part of the reason for those rules is tradition, and not meant to be taken as part of the daily rule of life as YIM is attempting to postulate. Monastics actually leave the monastery and don't tackle the nearest woman out of overwhelming desire.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:24:19 AM
And hey, yesh did seek out mennonite counsel, perhaps everyone should back off him a little in light of what he said there:

http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13859

You're funny.

Trust me, I don't care about attempts at juvenile cyber bullying.

That's me, read all about it.

But I also found people using the same nickname I have here.  :)

Interesting others would see Yeshua as the son of God's name.

I hope you stay on that forum, and learn about the Mennonite faith.



I was being serious. Cyberbullying? I was suggesting that perhaps your struggle with these issues are more serious and personal than polemical than we are treating them as and thus possibly alienating you further and harming you more than doing good by how this thread is going.

That was my point. Unlike your links, I was looking at the context of your quotes and I see a pained person who I can relate to and hope others do too and perhaps moderate a bit of the tone here even if we disagree as much as we do with you.

That is genuinely my reason for posting that.

One other thing, what alienates me from Orthodox truly - isn't the behavior of others on this forum, nor is it the naked ladies in the Theophany, and it certainly isn't the veiled women in my OP.

It's that the EO will make any excuse to disobey God's commands and sometimes even their own faith if it serves "their purpose".
You seem to be pretty good at that yourself, Yesh. ;)

Somebody with a half a wit of intelligence will one day find these threads and see people compromising their own faith in order to disagree with some quasi Orthodox anomaly.   It's more about being a "part of the church" than any church standard or biblical standard.

This thread is a perfect example of this.  As the ridicule flies of how I know intent of women and how it's "my problem", you will find your own monks in admission to the same exact thing.   It is a slam dunk example of the oddities of the "faithful" not even understanding their own faith nor their brothers in Christ.  I call myself weak, as the EO monks show admission to weakness by their admission to not want to lust.  

So if my arguments are insulted, then you see EO slamming on the monk's own dress code.  Who is alienated from Orthodoxy after all - the one who promotes many monastery's dress codes and consideration of what can cause a man to fall into lust, or those who outright slam it and the concept behind it?
What significance does a monastic dress code have for us who are not monastics?

Monastics are men who fall into lust as any man can.

They setup a dress code in recognition for their weaknesses.  The weaknesses I submitted that I have (though small) are weaknesses.   They recognize these things as I do.  Thus the monastery sets up a dress code to prevent women causing them to fall.  Women are sometimes turned away due to their dress because the monks don't want to fall into lust.

It's the recognition that men fall for simple things, even sheer veils that I was pointing out.  As the ridicule flies in the thread, the irony ran wild as the EO monks state the same basic stuff.

My hope is that women will see that some men fall (even monastics) even in small ways into lust over simple things, such as a sheer veil.   I hope women will take this into consideration on how they dress in front of their brothers in Christ, and amongst other people.

For that I think a woman should see a monastery request, and consider why it is they requested that, and know other men may have the same weakness.
Speaking as a man, I can agree with some of the points you raise. I am weak in the eyes and find myself often distracted by what I see of women in revealing outfits. However, I take responsibility for my weakness. I may even communicate, as I am doing now, that this is my weakness in the hope that some women will be sympathetic. I do not blame them, though, for causing me to fall, which it seems you are doing. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness. If a woman wants to be sympathetic and dress in such a manner that she doesn't become an undue distraction for me, then that is her choice. I will even praise her for her modesty. But that is her choice, for which she will have to give her own account before God on Judgment Day. I will not blame her for distracting me if she doesn't dress modestly, for all I can do is take responsibility for my own failure to keep my eyes where they need to be. Again, I take responsibility for my weakness.

Thank you, as do I take FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY WEAKNESS as well.

I am not blaming women, but hope they will consider the weakness of some men.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 03:24:44 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:25:23 AM
OK, it's late and what am I doing? I am going to go read about a guy who is a libertine compared to our dear YiM, Mohamed.

LoL, it is late, but I think I'm going to have to be in this barn for a couple more hours!  Have fun.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:26:09 AM
No one has touched the St. Mary of Egypt issue.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:27:48 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.

on #4, you are not understanding I don't think.

I do take full responsibility for my own sins.  I hope that women understand that weak men like me struggle and will help me by choosing to cover up.

I don't see how this is blaming them.  I'm not saying "if you would have just covered up I wouldn't have sinned".

I'm merely asking for help because I am weak.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Mor Ephrem on January 28, 2014, 03:27:56 AM
They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Neither were you, but you are comfortable telling us how the child felt, what the people did to him (i.e., not baptism, but humiliation), etc.  

The child's parents and family are there watching all of this without stopping it--maybe they should be reported to the police for child endangerment?  The child himself doesn't appear to have been forced or otherwise abused by the experience.  At certain points, he even seems to go along with it normally.  Certainly he doesn't behave like someone who has been molested by men in robes in front of a hundred people.    

The only one who has been traumatised is you.    
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:31:58 AM
They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Neither were you, but you are comfortable telling us how the child felt, what the people did to him (i.e., not baptism, but humiliation), etc.  

The child's parents and family are there watching all of this without stopping it--maybe they should be reported to the police for child endangerment?  The child himself doesn't appear to have been forced or otherwise abused by the experience.  At certain points, he even seems to go along with it normally.  Certainly he doesn't behave like someone who has been molested by men in robes in front of a hundred people.    

The only one who has been traumatised is you.    

I think back when I was 6-10 years old....
I guess I always wanted to get in a small tub of water with 5-7 adult guys looking at me naked. ::)

You know if daddy and mommy wanted me to do it, I would have just been fine with it.

In seriousness, I know the point you are making.... But what child really wants to do that?  Let him wear his clothes and change into some dry ones later.  What's the big deal after all?

Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: yeshuaisiam on January 28, 2014, 03:33:22 AM
Yikes, gonna run guys for the night, I'll check back in a few days though... Gotta get prepped over here.  Been fun tonight...

I appreciate all comments, and like all points of view even if disagreement happens. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: PeterTheAleut on January 28, 2014, 03:36:53 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.

on #4, you are not understanding I don't think.

I do take full responsibility for my own sins.  I hope that women understand that weak men like me struggle and will help me by choosing to cover up.

I don't see how this is blaming them.  I'm not saying "if you would have just covered up I wouldn't have sinned".

I'm merely asking for help because I am weak.
I think you might get better results if you ask the women for no help at all. Admit your weakness and leave it at that. If a woman perceives your desire to avoid distraction and takes the initiative to help you achieve your goal by dressing modestly, then praise her for her discernment and her modesty. If she doesn't, then continue taking full responsibility for your failures and say nothing good or bad about her. Don't ask for any help from her.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Romaios on January 28, 2014, 03:37:45 AM
In seriousness, I know the point you are making.... But what child really wants to do that?  Let him wear his clothes and change into some dry ones later.  What's the big deal after all?

Typology obscured - "skin clothes" (Gen. 3:21 - sin/the old man/the flesh) are shed at baptism. One is reborn, emerging from the font just as from the womb.

Just like triple immersion, it is a big deal.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:39:14 AM
I think you might get better results if you ask the women for no help at all. Admit your weakness and leave it at that. If a woman perceives your desire to avoid distraction and takes the initiative to help you achieve your goal by dressing modestly, then praise her for her discernment and her modesty. If she doesn't, then continue taking full responsibility for your failures and say nothing good or bad about her. Don't ask for any help from her.

This. Precisely this.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Quinault on January 28, 2014, 03:43:03 AM
Although, you could just only attend Orthodox services at a monastery as well. Trying to say that monastic guidelines should be adhered to outside the monastery is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 04:01:03 AM
Each devil is also wearing a loincloth, which is more what I had in mind.  

Are they devils?

Poor kid.

Quit twisting stuff up.   Text doesn't have breaths.  Poor kid getting held in front of this whole church butt naked.  I would have been mortified at that child's age.


Look bro, if you want to go to church naked, have naked women at church, and don't think a 7 or whatever year old naked child is wrong, that's your business.  Whatever.

My OP was the point of the thread - backed up with the same concerns of EO monks.

You are great proof American Protestants have very sick views on sexuality or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: mike on January 28, 2014, 04:01:03 AM
She would not be allowed in an EO monastery.

Thanks God, not to all.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 28, 2014, 07:29:50 AM
Quote
I'm not advocating a dress code, the monasteries did.

Excuse me, who's the one constantly telling women to cover up, and to not wear figure-hugging clothing (even if it covers their skin) because it leads him to "fall"?

Did I?  I said I hope they would consider covering up.

The monastics have it posted perm on their sites for their dress code.  
It's not the point.

The point is men are weak for silly stuff and even the monks admit it.  I hope women take it into consideration for their brothers.

Why is this so bad?

Because you're still lumping all the blame on the women for your failings, never on yourself.

I'm not trying to be rude but is English your first language?

1) I am not blaming women for my failings.
2) Monks admit to the same weakness as I in their dress code
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

3) Monks forbid women to enter their monastery because they don't want to fall
That may be true on Mount Athos, but is that true at any other monasteries?

4) As for me, I hope women consider how easily some men fall (like me) and CHOOSE to cover up.
Again, I take responsibility for my own failings.

on #4, you are not understanding I don't think.

I do take full responsibility for my own sins.  I hope that women understand that weak men like me struggle and will help me by choosing to cover up.

I don't see how this is blaming them.  I'm not saying "if you would have just covered up I wouldn't have sinned".

I'm merely asking for help because I am weak.

Go back to your OP. the young women that you selected to exhibit were not the potential whores of Babylon you suggested them to be. They were lovely modest girls that any of us would be proud to have as sisters, daughters, friends.  Yet you implied of them that they were deliberately trying to call attention to themselves, were not mindful of God but mindful of fashion.  You blamed them with quite a lot with your speculations about those girls. 

Just be like the Muslim man who worked in the same building as I. Out in the hallway he would keep his head down and look at the ground.  In an elevator ride I shared with him he stood in the corner to avoid looking at me.  (And don't imply I was immodest.  My husband will tell you I didn't dress too sexy at work. )  he had his own ideas, I'm sure, about how women should dress.  Probably the full on Burqua. 

The pictures you selected originally  to exhibit were of ones you felt needed chastisement for not helping you avoid impure thoughts.  If those nice girls were too much for you, I think you need more than an Internet Forum for help.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 07:43:10 AM
Quote
But the most spiritually advanced of monks can see the body of a scantily clad woman and not be distracted by it.

Indeed, PtA. Just as the vast majority of male doctors, nurses, paramedics, police officers or rescue workers can see the naked body of a woman in the line of duty and not be distracted by it.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 07:45:22 AM
Each devil is also wearing a loincloth, which is more what I had in mind.  

Are they devils?


They represent evil spirits, evil forces. The baptismal service and the hymns for Theophany mentions them.



Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 07:46:25 AM
Quote
Go back to your OP. the young women that you selected to exhibit were not the potential whores of Babylon you suggested them to be. They were lovely modest girls that any of us would be proud to have as sisters, daughters, friends.  Yet you implied of them that they were deliberately trying to call attention to themselves, were not mindful of God but mindful of fashion.  You blamed them with quite a lot with your speculations about those girls.

Just be like the Muslim man who worked in the same building as I. Out in the hallway he would keep his head down and look at the ground.  In an elevator ride I shared with him he stood in the corner to avoid looking at me.  (And don't imply I was immodest.  My husband will tell you I didn't dress too sexy at work. )  he had his own ideas, I'm sure, about how women should dress.  Probably the full on Burqua.

The pictures you selected originally  to exhibit were of ones you felt needed chastisement for not helping you avoid impure thoughts.  If those nice girls were too much for you, I think you need more than an Internet Forum for help.

A perfect post, Adela!  :-*
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Adela on January 28, 2014, 07:51:05 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?
They were not watching  a porn  show. They were there to learn how to help and cure people. By the time they get to this point, they have cut up so many cadavers, practiced on dummies, stared at text books at diagrams of the human body. There thoughts are on learning to pass their exams and have the knowledge to help and heal people and not get sued later for medical malpractice.

  I did a career change from software programming into nursing, and in the few years I was a med-surge nurse before I ruined my spine lifting obese Americans and had to go back to sitting at a computer , let me tell you that seeing a naked person is not a big deal.  Try putting a Foley Cath into a male patient that needs it.  Should a nurse refuse to touch the mans penis?  One of the jokes for nurses is that a nurse has seen more penises than a prostitute. 

Whenever I'm at the doctors and they ask if its ok for a student/intern to observe, I say yes.  They have to learn somewhere. 
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 07:55:02 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?
They were not watching  a porn  show. They were there to learn how to help and cure people. By the time they get to this point, they have cut up so many cadavers, practiced on dummies, stared at text books at diagrams of the human body. There thoughts are on learning to pass their exams and have the knowledge to help and heal people and not get sued later for medical malpractice.

  I did a career change from software programming into nursing, and in the few years I was a med-surge nurse before I ruined my spine lifting obese Americans and had to go back to sitting at a computer , let me tell you that seeing a naked person is not a big deal.  Try putting a Foley Cath into a male patient that needs it.  Should a nurse refuse to touch the mans penis?  One of the jokes for nurses is that a nurse has seen more penises than a prostitute. 

Whenever I'm at the doctors and they ask if its ok for a student/intern to observe, I say yes.  They have to learn somewhere. 

To add to Adela's very accurate post, let's not also forget the large numbers of male gynecologists and obstetricians the world over, who go about their duties with complete professionalism.
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Arachne on January 28, 2014, 08:53:08 AM
OMG what are they doing?!?! (http://youtu.be/6gNMrSohhz8?t=1h25m)

Naked links lead me to fall.

They are humiliating a child.

How'd you like to sit in there with a bunch of guys looking at you?

Yeah.  It was clearly an optical gang rape.

In fairness, you weren't the one sitting there naked surrounded by men looking at you.

Guess you were never an athlete? You are lacking context in this thread. I was a wrestler. So it didn't end at looking. I literally had my face in other guys' crotches on the mat separated by the thinnest of material in front of upwards of a thousand people.

NBD.

Now different context with thousand or no people, it would've been another story.

Ever been to the urologist? I have. Since I was 16 due to a large prostate. I've been in a room full of women and men (let's be honest it was like 10) to check out the kid with the prostate of an 80 year old with cancer. It was a teaching hospital. I dropped trough and bent over and was digitally examined by a few strangers.

Different context, different story.

So how did you like sitting there naked with 10 women and men looking at you naked?
They were not watching  a porn  show. They were there to learn how to help and cure people. By the time they get to this point, they have cut up so many cadavers, practiced on dummies, stared at text books at diagrams of the human body. There thoughts are on learning to pass their exams and have the knowledge to help and heal people and not get sued later for medical malpractice.

  I did a career change from software programming into nursing, and in the few years I was a med-surge nurse before I ruined my spine lifting obese Americans and had to go back to sitting at a computer , let me tell you that seeing a naked person is not a big deal.  Try putting a Foley Cath into a male patient that needs it.  Should a nurse refuse to touch the mans penis?  One of the jokes for nurses is that a nurse has seen more penises than a prostitute. 

Whenever I'm at the doctors and they ask if its ok for a student/intern to observe, I say yes.  They have to learn somewhere. 

To add to Adela's very accurate post, let's not also forget the large numbers of male gynecologists and obstetricians the world over, who go about their duties with complete professionalism.

The Muslim way of doing that is through a mirror. Don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't have my lady bits tampered with without direct eye contact...
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: hecma925 on January 28, 2014, 08:58:57 AM
This thread:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100417024949/uncyclopedia/images/9/9e/Screaming_bald_man.jpg)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 09:01:48 AM
This thread:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100417024949/uncyclopedia/images/9/9e/Screaming_bald_man.jpg)

What's scarier is that, after this thread fizzles out, there's a very high chance Yesh will raise this matter again in a future thread.  :o :o ;)
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: Iconodule on January 28, 2014, 09:15:18 AM
Are they covering their head, cuz I can't see?

The one on the right in the second icon is wearing something on its head.  ;)

Each devil is also wearing a loincloth, which is more what I had in mind. 

In close examination of Theophany icons, it seems to me these guys are not devils but represent the Jordan river and the sea, fleeing at the presence of their creator: "What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?"
Title: Re: Head coverings, modesty, and the weakness of me
Post by: LBK on January 28, 2014, 09:16:57 AM