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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Religious Topics => Topic started by: Santagranddad on November 25, 2013, 06:52:44 PM

Title: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Santagranddad on November 25, 2013, 06:52:44 PM
According to the Daily Caller several newspapers in the region are reporting that all mosques are to be closed and may be demolished.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Asteriktos on November 25, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
Fwiw it is denying the reports (http://www.ibtimes.com/angola-denies-it-banned-islam-destroyed-mosques-1484898)...
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: mike on November 25, 2013, 07:03:04 PM
Fwiw it is denying the reports (http://www.ibtimes.com/angola-denies-it-banned-islam-destroyed-mosques-1484898)...

Glory to God!
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on November 25, 2013, 08:10:13 PM
 ;D Thanks for the laugh!  This is even more ridiculous than those moronic chain emails that used to make the rounds from time claiming that Kevin Rudd or Julia Gillard had told Australia's Muslim immigrants to assimilate or leave.  I've never heard of the Daily Caller but I'm guessing it's another name for Uncle Junior's AOL inbox and/or fax machine?
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: minasoliman on November 25, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
Should we not out of principle find this somewhat troubling?
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Gorazd on November 25, 2013, 08:37:21 PM
Well, it seems like it didn't happen.

But if it had, what would be so bad about that? I mean, what good is there in Islam that it should be legal?
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: lovesupreme on November 25, 2013, 08:42:55 PM
Well, it seems like it didn't happen.

But if it had, what would be so bad about that? I mean, what good is there in Islam that it should be legal?

Don't you think a Muslim could say the same thing about Christianity if it had been banned?
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Theophilos78 on November 25, 2013, 08:48:47 PM
According to the Daily Caller several newspapers in the region are reporting that all mosques are to be closed and may be demolished.

Unfortunately, this turns out to be a hoax.

There will be no good news for us unless Christians learn to be as brave and persistent as heretics.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: orthonorm on November 25, 2013, 09:31:39 PM
Well, it seems like it didn't happen.

But if it had, what would be so bad about that? I mean, what good is there in Islam that it should be legal?

Don't you think a Muslim could say the same thing about Christianity if it had been banned?

Not if they wish to avoid the hellfire. It seems that many so-called Muslims ain't going to. They are sorta like your typical conservative Christian. They've managed to use complicated apologetics to avoid some of the most clear tenets of their faith. The dumb thing about the Muslims is that observing this tenet is really no big deal. Christians are under arguably greater strictures which they not only ignore but rally against.

You can see the majority of the posts in the politics section of this forum for such Christians.

Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: minasoliman on November 25, 2013, 10:12:22 PM
Well, it seems like it didn't happen.

But if it had, what would be so bad about that? I mean, what good is there in Islam that it should be legal?

Don't you think a Muslim could say the same thing about Christianity if it had been banned?
+1

Apparently, we as Christians forgot the "Do unto others" rule.

I'm all for banning heretics and pagans too I suppose.  Hail the Christian Roman Empire!
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Gorazd on November 25, 2013, 11:19:29 PM
There are heretics such as Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses or whatever which just have inacceptable theological doctrine. Islam however has inherent violent and aggressive elements of doctrine and religious law which, on the long term, will always make coexistence between Muslims and non-Muslims problematic, if not outright impossible.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 12:22:44 AM
Well, it seems like it didn't happen.

But if it had, what would be so bad about that? I mean, what good is there in Islam that it should be legal?

Don't you think a Muslim could say the same thing about Christianity if it had been banned?
+1

Apparently, we as Christians forgot the "Do unto others" rule.

I'm all for banning heretics and pagans too I suppose.  Hail the Christian Roman Empire!
The Orthodox one had Muslims in it, and they were allowed to have their mosques.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/JulianusII-antioch%28360-363%29-CNG.jpg)
as for heretics-they insisted on taking sees belonging to the Orthodox.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: mike on November 26, 2013, 04:33:45 AM
Well, it seems like it didn't happen.

But if it had, what would be so bad about that? I mean, what good is there in Islam that it should be legal?

There were too many bannings of religion (including banning Orthodox Christianity a handful of times) to be happy about another one.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Gorazd on November 26, 2013, 05:00:55 AM
There were too many bannings of religion (including banning Orthodox Christianity a handful of times) to be happy about another one.

I'm a religion, you're a religion? That's too easy. Muslims themselves tend to say "Al-Islamu din wa dawla" - Islam is a religion and a state/dynasty.

For a democratic state, it is quite legitimate to ban antidemocratic ideologies, such as nazism. So what to do with Islam? It is quite a serious question.  In Germany, the current approach seems to be to label the Islam which takes its political dimension seriously as "salafism" and ban it, and at the same time produce with state support a new Islam with only spiritual content as well as typcial German Protestant methodology ("historical criticism"). The problem is they don't really get away with that. Just google Mouhanad Khrochide.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: #1Sinner on November 26, 2013, 05:12:37 AM
According to the Daily Caller several newspapers in the region are reporting that all mosques are to be closed and may be demolished.

Unfortunately, this turns out to be a hoax.

There will be no good news for us unless Christians learn to be as brave and persistent as heretics.

Don't hold your breath. Weakness in the face of Christ's enemies seems to the status quo of Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on November 26, 2013, 09:16:49 AM
Don't hold your breath. Weakness in the face of Christ's enemies seems to the status quo of Orthodoxy.

Quote
But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me.  2 Cor. 12:9

On the contrary, the Orthodox Church has always been strong enough to stand as the Church of the Martyrs in the face of "Christ's enemies", content to let Our Lord fight the battle for us and happy to suffer and die in His name.  If you're putting your trust in princes and sons of men to burn/ban/fight the heretics and heathens in the physical sense, you're wasting your time.  I've never been a fan of pogroms, inquisitions, witch-burnings, or "holy" wars.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 09:19:08 AM
According to the Daily Caller several newspapers in the region are reporting that all mosques are to be closed and may be demolished.

Unfortunately, this turns out to be a hoax.

There will be no good news for us unless Christians learn to be as brave and persistent as heretics.

Don't hold your breath. Weakness in the face of Christ's enemies seems to the status quo of Orthodoxy.
The Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem still exist.

The Church of the first Latin Father Tertullian and St. Augustine in North Africa has disappeared since Islam came.

But I have to admit that the Vatican has been among the braver and more persistent heretics. Although St. Stefan the Great of Moldavia-who held off the Turks, for which the Vatican called him "Champion of the Christian Faith" ( christianae fidei athleta)-remarked that the hardest part of fighting the Muslims was watching your back for the Vatican's minions.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Iconodule on November 26, 2013, 09:56:58 AM
There are heretics such as Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses or whatever which just have inacceptable theological doctrine. Islam however has inherent violent and aggressive elements of doctrine and religious law which, on the long term, will always make coexistence between Muslims and non-Muslims problematic, if not outright impossible.

Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Gorazd on November 26, 2013, 10:04:23 AM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Iconodule on November 26, 2013, 10:20:11 AM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: vamrat on November 26, 2013, 11:10:38 AM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


The Armenians in Turkey?  Or have there been battles in modern Armenia?  (I really don't know enough about this region.)

In Turkey they were minorities, and this is what seems to be par for the course for Christians in Moslem nations.  When Christians have a majority population and control government and most importantly the army they seem to have a longer shelf life.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 11:58:06 AM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Iconodule on November 26, 2013, 12:00:42 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 12:08:45 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
So am I (the Kurds, for instance, are indigenous).
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Iconodule on November 26, 2013, 12:45:57 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
So am I (the Kurds, for instance, are indigenous).

Is there any evidence of regular hostility between Kurds and Armenians prior to the Russo-Turkish fighting of the 19th century?
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
So am I (the Kurds, for instance, are indigenous).

Is there any evidence of regular hostility between Kurds and Armenians prior to the Russo-Turkish fighting of the 19th century?
Plenty.  The Safavids, for instance, were a Kurdish dynasty.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Iconodule on November 26, 2013, 01:20:58 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
So am I (the Kurds, for instance, are indigenous).

Is there any evidence of regular hostility between Kurds and Armenians prior to the Russo-Turkish fighting of the 19th century?
Plenty.  The Safavids, for instance, were a Kurdish dynasty.

Within Armenia I mean. The Safavids dealt with Armenia as the Iranian empire; the Kurdish origins of the dynasty were not the motivating factor.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 01:46:04 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
So am I (the Kurds, for instance, are indigenous).

Is there any evidence of regular hostility between Kurds and Armenians prior to the Russo-Turkish fighting of the 19th century?
Plenty.  The Safavids, for instance, were a Kurdish dynasty.

Within Armenia I mean. The Safavids dealt with Armenia as the Iranian empire; the Kurdish origins of the dynasty were not the motivating factor.
read up on the origins of the Safavid dynasty, and then get back to me.  Your post shows you haven't a clue.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: minasoliman on November 26, 2013, 03:42:27 PM
There are heretics such as Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses or whatever which just have inacceptable theological doctrine. Islam however has inherent violent and aggressive elements of doctrine and religious law which, on the long term, will always make coexistence between Muslims and non-Muslims problematic, if not outright impossible.

Outlaw the Salafis, outlaw terrorism, outlaw murder, outlaw religious establishment, but outlawing a religion is different.  We have neo-Nazis and KKK members in the US, roaming freely and practicing their own religion.

If we allow a nation to outlaw a religion, we only open Pandora's box to allow nations to outlaw those they consider a threat, including the followers of Christ.  Paganism was never meant to be a violent religion, but it just so happens that some of the bloodiest times were in their hands.  Terroristic Buddhists also exist.

And yet there are Muslims who would stand by my side and fight for my rights and the separation of mosque and state.  I pray they grow, and not to alienate them.  If we are to love our neighbor, we are to allow freedom, even to our own enemies.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Iconodule on November 26, 2013, 05:18:22 PM
Christianity and Islam have peacefully coexisted in Georgia and other parts of the Caucasus for centuries.
Tell that to the Armenians.


Yes, Armenia is a different story. Besides the point, though. Armenia never had a high indigenous Muslim population to begin with.
This was Armenia
(http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif)
how did it get restricted to just the yellow? ::)

Like I said, Armenia is not what I'm talking about. I'm also not referring to invasions by the surrounding Muslim empires; I'm referring to relations between indigenous people within Georgia and other places in the Caucasus.
So am I (the Kurds, for instance, are indigenous).

Is there any evidence of regular hostility between Kurds and Armenians prior to the Russo-Turkish fighting of the 19th century?
Plenty.  The Safavids, for instance, were a Kurdish dynasty.

Within Armenia I mean. The Safavids dealt with Armenia as the Iranian empire; the Kurdish origins of the dynasty were not the motivating factor.
read up on the origins of the Safavid dynasty, and then get back to me.  Your post shows you haven't a clue.

If you say so. The point still stands that Armenians and Kurds lived side by side in Armenia for centuries without problems, and today relations are also pretty good; likewise Muslims and Christians (and Jews) in Georgia coexisted peacefully for centuries. The idea that there is some necessity to suppress Islam because Muslims are inevitably violent does not have historical support.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: ialmisry on November 26, 2013, 05:25:45 PM
If you say so. The point still stands that Armenians and Kurds lived side by side in Armenia for centuries without problems, and today relations are also pretty good; likewise Muslims and Christians (and Jews) in Georgia coexisted peacefully for centuries. The idea that there is some necessity to suppress Islam because Muslims are inevitably violent does not have historical support.
Historical arguments by those who do not know history have no validity.  Just propaganda value.
Title: Re: Angola bans Islam?
Post by: Santagranddad on November 26, 2013, 06:29:53 PM
The notion of a state, any state, suppressing any faith makes me shudder. For if you go along with it for this group, you in principle cannot object with any standing should somewhere else another group with which you no quarrel is to be suppressed, surely?

That I hold Islam to be false, and has a history of seeking to subjugate Christians nevertheless leaves me very opposed to any attempt by any state to suppress it. Our own Christian history might suggest such state actions have consequences that the architects of such a suppression never wished for.

God asks us to come to Him of our own free will. Free will He gave us, and some will make choices incompatible with His teaching. That has to be their choice. It is not for the state, any state, to impose it's take on the population. Even now we see in the Russian Federation state support of the Moscow Patriarchate leading to harassment of 'Orthodox dissidents', blocking of registration of places of worship, attempts to seize property, etc.