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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Jetavan on October 31, 2013, 09:08:29 PM

Title: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Jetavan on October 31, 2013, 09:08:29 PM
WASHINGTON -- The Vatican has asked national bishops' conferences (http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-asks-parish-level-input-synod-document) around the world to conduct a wide-ranging poll of Catholics asking for their opinions on church teachings on contraception, same-sex marriage and divorce.

Archbishop Lorenzo Baldisseri, secretary general of the Vatican's Synod of Bishops, asked the conferences to distribute the poll "immediately as widely as possible to deaneries and parishes so that input from local sources can be received."
....
While Baldisseri asks in his letter for wide consultation on the questions, an accompanying letter sent with the U.S. version of the Vatican document does not request the American bishops undertake wide consultation in their dioceses.

That accompanying letter, dated Oct. 30, is sent from Msgr. Ronny Jenkins, the general secretary of the U.S. bishops' conference, and only asks the U.S. bishops to provide their own observations.
....
In contrast to the Americans, the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales has set up an online survey that Catholics in their countries can use to respond to the Vatican questions.

____________________

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: newtoorthodoxy on October 31, 2013, 09:20:52 PM
This is disturbing.  I hope I'm reading a lot more into it than it actually says, because it looks to me like they're going to 'develop doctrine' based on majority opinion.  That sounds like the way the Episcopalians do it, voting each year what they're going to believe in.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Mor Ephrem on October 31, 2013, 09:24:55 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means. 
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: newtoorthodoxy on October 31, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
I certainly hope not.  It's just been one thing after another, with the Pope saying something that immediately gets interpreted one way, and then the pr about how his comment was misunderstood.  Too many times, and I'm beginning to wonder. 
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: WPM on October 31, 2013, 09:50:35 PM
Your local parish should follow through with that.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Maria on October 31, 2013, 09:52:51 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means.  

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

In the 1950s when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mys. Corporus asked for the formation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to study the Mass, unknown to many Catholics, the Jesuits were already concelebrating Liturgies in the vernacular, while the majority of the world continued to celebrate the Latin Mass. These Liturgical Commissions gave a lot of input to Vatican II with the result that a New Mass was developed that was almost identical to the Lutheran Hymnal of 1906. Coincidence? I think not.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: newtoorthodoxy on October 31, 2013, 09:56:12 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means. 

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

When they start taking opinion polls, backfire is usually what happens.  Just taking polls like that is going to also give the impression that church members can influence doctrine, and that's the downward slope.  I think my impulse to move from Catholicism to Orthodoxy was not only wise but very well-timed.  I'm probably jumping the gun here, but I've just seen way too many things where I had said, "There's no way that would ever happen," and don't you know, they happened. 
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Charles Martel on November 01, 2013, 05:51:31 AM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: newtoorthodoxy on November 01, 2013, 06:43:54 AM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.

Aging hippies are doing damage all over the place.  It's a shame.

And you're right, of course.  The Church is not a democracy.  We're not supposed to change church--church is supposed to change us. 
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: mike on November 01, 2013, 06:52:38 AM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.

It's not elective absolute monarchy either.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Schultz on November 01, 2013, 09:15:15 AM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means.  

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

In the 1950s when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mys. Corporus asked for the formation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to study the Mass, unknown to many Catholics, the Jesuits were already concelebrating Liturgies in the vernacular, while the majority of the world continued to celebrate the Latin Mass. These Liturgical Commissions gave a lot of input to Vatican II with the result that a New Mass was developed that was almost identical to the Lutheran Hymnal of 1906. Coincidence? I think not.

And there you go again.  I don't think you ever offered any proof of this. 
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Charles Martel on November 01, 2013, 06:30:50 PM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.

It's not elective absolute monarchy either.
Church doctrine and dogma are not up for debate.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Cyrillic on November 01, 2013, 06:33:06 PM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.

It's not elective absolute monarchy either.
Church doctrine and dogma are not up for debate.

An elective absolute monarchy is neither a doctrine nor a dogma of the Church.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Maria on November 01, 2013, 07:10:11 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means.  

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

In the 1950s when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mys. Corporus asked for the formation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to study the Mass, unknown to many Catholics, the Jesuits were already concelebrating Liturgies in the vernacular, while the majority of the world continued to celebrate the Latin Mass. These Liturgical Commissions gave a lot of input to Vatican II with the result that a New Mass was developed that was almost identical to the Lutheran Hymnal of 1906. Coincidence? I think not.

And there you go again.  I don't think you ever offered any proof of this. 

Get yourself a copy and see for yourself.
I did, and I cited the book.
At least you can check. There are copies in Lutheran colleges.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Peter J on November 02, 2013, 04:56:27 PM
I'm probably jumping the gun here, but I've just seen way too many things where I had said, "There's no way that would ever happen," and don't you know, they happened. 

I never thought Pope Benedict would end his papacy during his lifetime. Does that count?
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: JamesRottnek on November 02, 2013, 05:13:34 PM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.

It's not elective absolute monarchy either.
Church doctrine and dogma are not up for debate.

Someone better tell the academics to close up shop then; their theological writings are no longer needed.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Cyrillic on November 02, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
The Church is not a Democracy.

More Freemasonic, French Revolutionary nonsense from the post VII againg hippies in Rome.

It's not elective absolute monarchy either.
Church doctrine and dogma are not up for debate.

Someone better tell the academics to close up shop then; their theological writings are no longer needed.

TBH, their theological writings really aren't necessary.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Maria on November 02, 2013, 06:56:18 PM
I'm probably jumping the gun here, but I've just seen way too many things where I had said, "There's no way that would ever happen," and don't you know, they happened. 

I never thought Pope Benedict would end his papacy during his lifetime. Does that count?

I wonder if Pope Francis will follow his example and resign too.
That would leave the question: Is there going to be a last Pope with the name of Pope Peter or is Pope Francis de Petra the last one?
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Jetavan on November 04, 2013, 04:33:38 PM
Here are some questions (https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=28hu%2fJ2JI4%2fLljHhhQ%2b7btPhJ7Sl5dGuwh4BDJBRJug%3d) from the survey created by the bishops of England and Wales; they seem pretty innocuous, and are probably best answered by priests and bishops and informed laypeople:

5. Question 4e: What questions do divorced and remarried people pose to the Church concerning the Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Reconciliation? Among those persons who find themselves in these situations, how many ask for these sacraments?

6. Question 4f: Could a simplification of canonical practice in recognizing a declaration of nullity of the marriage bond provide a positive contribution to solving the problems of the persons involved? If yes, what form would it take?

7. Question 4g: Does a ministry exist to attend to these cases? Describe this pastoral ministry? Do such programmes exist on the national and diocesan levels? How is God’s mercy proclaimed to separated couples and those divorced and remarried and how does the Church put into practice her support for them in their journey of faith?
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Jetavan on November 08, 2013, 03:33:07 PM
Straight from the Vatican: "Vatican questionnaire for the synod on the family": http://www.scribd.com/doc/180575701/Vatican-questionnaire-for-the-synod-on-the-family (http://www.scribd.com/doc/180575701/Vatican-questionnaire-for-the-synod-on-the-family)
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Tikhon29605 on November 08, 2013, 03:42:48 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means.  

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

In the 1950s when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mys. Corporus asked for the formation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to study the Mass, unknown to many Catholics, the Jesuits were already concelebrating Liturgies in the vernacular, while the majority of the world continued to celebrate the Latin Mass. These Liturgical Commissions gave a lot of input to Vatican II with the result that a New Mass was developed that was almost identical to the Lutheran Hymnal of 1906. Coincidence? I think not.

And there you go again.  I don't think you ever offered any proof of this. 

Such nonsense!  The Lutheran Church still used the old Common Service of 1888 in 1906, and it called kept the beautiful KJV language, all five parts of the Mass and it was celebrated  ad orientem, that is, facing the altar (liturgical East). It is much nicer and more reverent than the ugly Novus Ordo mess.  Don't blame that on the Lutherans.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: username! on November 08, 2013, 03:43:34 PM
I am perplexed on what the Vatican hopes to accomplish
With this enormous survey. Imagine reading through
All of those answers.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Maria on November 08, 2013, 04:34:14 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means.  

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

In the 1950s when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mys. Corporus asked for the formation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to study the Mass, unknown to many Catholics, the Jesuits were already concelebrating Liturgies in the vernacular, while the majority of the world continued to celebrate the Latin Mass. These Liturgical Commissions gave a lot of input to Vatican II with the result that a New Mass was developed that was almost identical to the Lutheran Hymnal of 1906. Coincidence? I think not.

And there you go again.  I don't think you ever offered any proof of this. 

Such nonsense!  The Lutheran Church still used the old Common Service of 1888 in 1906, and it called kept the beautiful KJV language, all five parts of the Mass and it was celebrated  ad orientem, that is, facing the altar (liturgical East). It is much nicer and more reverent than the ugly Novus Ordo mess.  Don't blame that on the Lutherans.

The only difference between the Lutheran Hymnal Mass of 1906 and the Novus Ordo Mass of Vatican II is the modernized English. When I had that Lutheran Hymnal before the Claretian Priest tossed it in the fireplace, I did not look at the rubrics, only the words.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Alpo on November 08, 2013, 05:19:12 PM
I am perplexed on what the Vatican hopes to accomplish
With this enormous survey. Imagine reading through
All of those answers.

Maybe Italians don't have have enough firewood. Or they need some paper for rolling some cigarrettes.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Nephi on November 09, 2013, 12:00:31 AM
It's getting passed around the Catholics (i.e. everyone) in my department. Here (http://papalsurvey.com/) it is, and here are the questions:

Quote
The Church and Family Life
How well is the Church's teaching on marriage and family life communicated in your parish community? How does your local Church support married couples in their journey, especially those who struggle with marital difficulties?
 
Outreach to Divorced and Separated Persons
How does your parish community welcome divorced and separated persons? How are they included in the life of the parish? Are they given sufficient space to be full and active members of the Church?
 
Outreach to Same-Sex Couples and Gay Persons
How does your parish community welcome same-sex couples and gay persons? How are they included in the life of the parish? Are they given sufficient space to be full and active members of the Church?
 
Being A Church of Mercy and of Welcome
Pope Francis has declared his desire that the Church be a place of mercy and of welcome. As he and other bishops come together to discuss family life in 2014, what can the Church do to achieve this vision more fully? Please speak on the basis of personal experience.
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Peter J on November 09, 2013, 02:25:07 PM
Consider the source, newtoorthodoxy.  I don't think it means what they think it means.  

I agree with Mor. It appears that the Vatican wants to find out what the person in the pew and the bishops think about these matters.

However, I think this might backfire.

In the 1950s when Pope Pius XII in his Encyclical Mys. Corporus asked for the formation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to study the Mass, unknown to many Catholics, the Jesuits were already concelebrating Liturgies in the vernacular, while the majority of the world continued to celebrate the Latin Mass. These Liturgical Commissions gave a lot of input to Vatican II with the result that a New Mass was developed that was almost identical to the Lutheran Hymnal of 1906. Coincidence? I think not.

And there you go again.  I don't think you ever offered any proof of this. 

Such nonsense!  The Lutheran Church still used the old Common Service of 1888 in 1906, and it called kept the beautiful KJV language, all five parts of the Mass and it was celebrated  ad orientem, that is, facing the altar (liturgical East). It is much nicer and more reverent than the ugly Novus Ordo mess.  Don't blame that on the Lutherans.

Everybody blames the Lutherans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XydN7j83m54)
Title: Re: Vatican asks for parish-level input on synod document
Post by: Jetavan on December 10, 2013, 02:34:00 PM
VATICAN CITY In responding to a Vatican directive (http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-bishops-must-consult-grass-roots-family-synod) to listen "as widely as possible" to Catholics' views on issues like contraception, same-sex marriage and divorce, bishops globally must gather information from the "grass roots" of the faithful, the Vatican official overseeing the process said Friday.

The consultation, being taken in preparation for a 2014 Vatican meeting of Catholic bishops from around the world on issues of family life, cannot be limited only to the bishops' advisers, Archbishop Lorenzo Baldisseri told NCR.

"The consultation must gather information from the grass roots and not limit itself to the level of the Curia or other institutions," said Baldisseri, the general secretary of the Vatican's synod of bishops.
....
"I would like to say that the consultation is not a survey or referendum," Baldisseri continued. "Instead, it is a request for information, observations and suggestions which must ensure an adequate, concrete response in keeping with the teachings of the church."