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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Ansgar on October 14, 2013, 01:47:25 PM

Title: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Ansgar on October 14, 2013, 01:47:25 PM
I was wondering, since there is so much variation, in how roman catholics celebrate their liturgies, I have actually never figured out what the "correct" way to celebrate the mass of Paul VI is.

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I would also appreciate if you could maybe give some examples of what you would consider a "proper" mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on October 14, 2013, 02:01:31 PM
I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

Lay people distributing communion alongside with the priest?!


Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Cyrillic on October 14, 2013, 02:04:15 PM
Pews?!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on October 14, 2013, 02:25:08 PM
Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on October 14, 2013, 02:30:48 PM
Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
That's what I'm saying.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on October 14, 2013, 02:37:50 PM
I'm a bit confused about why the title of the video includes the words "Latinsk messe" when, as you say, it's not a Tridentine Mass.

Unfortunately, there isn't really consent about what the correct way to celebrate the Novus Ordo is, but if we were to go by the recommendations of the council which advised the revision (recommending the preservation of Latin and Gregorian chant, while only suggesting a simplification and use of the vernacular), then the answer would probably be "as much like the Tridentine as the rubrics will possibly allow," in other words, the Mass should be celebrated the way it has always been.

(The use of lay or "Extraordinary" ministers of Holy Communion is intended to be a provision for parishes large enough that only having one person distributing communion would lengthen the Mass to a ridiculous extent. However, it is widely taken as a means of getting through the distribution of communion as quickly as possible.)

We used to do basically a Tridentine dialogue Mass in the vernacular; it was a temporary revision of the Mass in 1967 after Vatican II. But apparently that wasn't good enough for some bishops, and Pope Paul VI spent the last years of his papacy trying to fix the mess he'd helped make.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Ansgar on October 14, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
Quote
I'm a bit confused about why the title of the video includes the words "Latinsk messe" when, as you say, it's not a Tridentine Mass.

If I understand it correctly, it simply means that it is a latin rite mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on October 14, 2013, 02:45:20 PM
In what way pope Paul VI tried clear the mess?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on October 14, 2013, 02:59:08 PM
I believe his action mostly involved trying to revive the use of traditional chant during the Mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Shanghaiski on October 14, 2013, 06:31:29 PM
Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
That's what I'm saying.

I've always wondered why this was never done.

This may be apocryphal, but supposedly Fr. Alexander Schmemann, when asked his thoughts after observing Vatican II, said, "I'm glad I'm Orthodox."
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on October 14, 2013, 07:29:46 PM
I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

Lay people distributing communion alongside with the priest?!

Common practice at the RC masses I've been to. Good ol' "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_minister_of_Holy_Communion)."

Seeing middle-aged women wearing t-shirts and jeans handing out communion was just strange for me. Frankly it still is, whenever I end up at a RC Mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on October 14, 2013, 07:31:42 PM
Seeing middle-aged women wearing t-shirts and jeans handing out communion was just strange for me. Frankly it still is, whenever I end up at a RC Mass.

That's why I make sure to end up at the right type of RC Mass or none at all.  ;)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on October 14, 2013, 10:28:44 PM
I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I don't know what the RC's here think, but this was hands down one of the nicest "Novus Ordo" Masses I've seen.  I haven't seen any "new" Mass done this well in person, even when it was all in Latin and with music, incense, and other rites, broadcasts from the Vatican being the exception. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on October 14, 2013, 10:38:54 PM
I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I don't know what the RC's here think, but this was hands down one of the nicest "Novus Ordo" Masses I've seen.  I haven't seen any "new" Mass done this well in person, even when it was all in Latin and with music, incense, and other rites, broadcasts from the Vatican being the exception. 

I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ish5zre-SRA) is another nicely done Novus Ordo/OF Mass. Ad Orientem, even.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Deacon Lance on October 14, 2013, 11:10:19 PM
I was wondering, since there is so much variation, in how roman catholics celebrate their liturgies, I have actually never figured out what the "correct" way to celebrate the mass of Paul VI is.

I sometimes like watching videos of catholic masses and I would like to know what the traditional catholics(or just catholics in general) would think of this mass:
http://katolsk.mediaplatform.dk/video/watch/1853/63

It is not exactly a Tridentine Mass, but I honestly didn't think it was especially bad.

I would also appreciate if you could maybe give some examples of what you would consider a "proper" mass.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/

If you get EWTN they do it right.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Apotheoun on October 16, 2013, 01:34:47 AM
Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.
That's what I'm saying.
Sadly no one in the Roman Church is listening to you.

The Mass in the first post is better than many of the Masses in the SF East Bay area. I have actually been to Lutheran services that are very similar.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Charles Martel on October 16, 2013, 05:18:27 AM
It's an abomination.  >:(
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: monkvasyl on October 16, 2013, 10:18:34 AM
If the priest would follow the rubrics in the Roman missal the "Mass of Paul VI" can be done reverently and beautifully, but most priest chose the shortest forms and also did whatever they thought looked cute.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on October 16, 2013, 10:23:35 AM
Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/ (http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on October 18, 2013, 06:58:48 PM
My husband and I will be attending Mass here (http://www.stmichaelsabbey.com/abbey/ (http://www.stmichaelsabbey.com/abbey/)) this Sunday. I suspect it won't be much like that video.  8)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on October 19, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
You never know...I've only heard good things about Norbertines, though I've never seen one in real life.  :)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on October 21, 2013, 11:41:26 AM
It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on October 21, 2013, 01:04:40 PM
Are all Danish RC masses like that? I'm fairly suprised how traditional that is. Finnish RC masses are a bit more of a low church.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on October 21, 2013, 01:16:59 PM
Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/ (http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/)
Yes, this looks about how it should be done.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on October 21, 2013, 01:18:15 PM
It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  ;D
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Cyrillic on October 21, 2013, 01:27:01 PM
Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/ (http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/)
Yes, this looks about how it should be done.

Didn't Pope Pius X ban baroque music in Mass?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on October 21, 2013, 03:10:52 PM
Here's a Novus Ordo Mass celebrated like it should be.

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/ (http://www.canons-regular.org/go/apostolates/ordinary-form-tutorials/)
Yes, this looks about how it should be done.

Didn't Pope Pius X ban baroque music in Mass?
wouldn't baroque music be a great improvement over what Roman churches have now?  :D That being said, the ban may not be applicable to the new rite of the mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Cyrillic on October 21, 2013, 04:10:13 PM
wouldn't baroque music be a great improvement over what Roman churches have now?  :D

True that  :)

That being said, the ban may not be applicable to the new rite of the mass.

I suppose that's indeed the case. Pity, though. Nothing beats Gregorian chant.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on October 21, 2013, 09:11:49 PM
It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  ;D
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.

Perhaps the ones in New Mexico are not the best representatives of their tradition. The ones in El Toro, CA certainly are. And their liturgy is anything BUT ugly.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Ionnis on October 21, 2013, 09:15:32 PM
It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  ;D
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.

Perhaps the ones in New Mexico are not the best representatives of their tradition. The ones in El Toro, CA certainly are. And their liturgy is anything BUT ugly.

I agree.  St. Michael's Abbey in Silverton, CA has an exceptional Liturgy and they are very, very orthodox in the Roman Catholic sense. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on October 21, 2013, 09:30:49 PM
It was really wonderful! It was the so-called "New Mass" but almost ALL in Latin using the Gregorian Chant. Will write more later - gotta go out to breakfast!  ;D
Interesting. The Norbertines in New Mexico are etremely low church liberals. Their church is ugly and their liturgy is uglier.

Perhaps the ones in New Mexico are not the best representatives of their tradition. The ones in El Toro, CA certainly are. And their liturgy is anything BUT ugly.
Well this is good news. Glad to hear it.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 03, 2013, 08:41:00 PM
A Benedictine priest says 1962 roman missal every sunday at 11am Twice a month it is sung by a great Schola. AItsits
This is 30min away from me.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 03, 2013, 08:50:20 PM
For me, it has to be:
1. No Praise and Worship music, semi-traditional hymns or Chant with organ or accapella only
2. Ministers must be properly vested
3. Priest must not speed through, and not spend 10 minutes after the sign of the cross talking about his day.
4. Priest must be orthodox in teaching when giving the homily
5. Must not have priest's chair in the middle unless it's a Cathedral, and must have a crucifix on the altar
6. Anything but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Santagranddad on November 03, 2013, 09:21:42 PM
For me, it has to be:
1. No Praise and Worship music, semi-traditional hymns or Chant with organ or accapella only
2. Ministers must be properly vested
3. Priest must not speed through, and not spend 10 minutes after the sign of the cross talking about his day.
4. Priest must be orthodox in teaching when giving the homily
5. Must not have priest's chair in the middle unless it's a Cathedral, and must have a crucifix on the altar
6. Anything but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

What is the dickens was the YouTube extract supposed to be. And are people supposed to be 'entertained', or worship or what at this dog's dinner? I had previously seen a RC Mass from California with dancing, bowls of incense carried aloft and wondered whether liturgical reform was a polite term for something unrepeatable.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 03, 2013, 09:24:45 PM
For me, it has to be:
1. No Praise and Worship music, semi-traditional hymns or Chant with organ or accapella only
2. Ministers must be properly vested
3. Priest must not speed through, and not spend 10 minutes after the sign of the cross talking about his day.
4. Priest must be orthodox in teaching when giving the homily
5. Must not have priest's chair in the middle unless it's a Cathedral, and must have a crucifix on the altar
6. Anything but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

What is the dickens was the YouTube extract supposed to be. And are people supposed to be 'entertained', or worship or what at this dog's dinner? I had previously seen a RC Mass from California with dancing, bowls of incense carried aloft and wondered whether liturgical reform was a polite term for something unrepeatable.

That YouTube extract was supposed to be some form of Messa Disastrica, I believe. And I spell it "Messa" on purpose. I assume it's some form of pagan Kool-Aid ritual that will end up with the participants dead from either the dancers or their guts being destroyed from the sheer absurdity of this... thing.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 03, 2013, 10:30:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Isn't this from a vagante group at least?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: William on November 03, 2013, 10:39:55 PM
How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 03, 2013, 11:04:31 PM
How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: William on November 03, 2013, 11:09:20 PM
How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?

Louisville, Kentucky.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 03, 2013, 11:09:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Isn't this from a vagante group at least?
And that makes it okay? The most Broad Church Anglicans would be ashamed to try this, and considering the past 40 years, that's saying something.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: newtoorthodoxy on November 03, 2013, 11:13:35 PM
I actually stumbled at the title of the thread.  It seems to suggest that Paul VI was really really fat.  

mass, not capitalized =

mass  (ms)
n.
1. A unified body of matter with no specific shape: a mass of clay.
2. A grouping of individual parts or elements that compose a unified body of unspecified size or quantity: "Take mankind in mass, and for the most part, they seem a mob of unnecessary duplicates" (Herman Melville).
3. A large but nonspecific amount or number: a mass of bruises.
4. A lump or aggregate of coherent material: a cancerous mass.
5. The principal part; the majority: the mass of the continent.
6. The physical volume or bulk of a solid body.
7. Abbr. m Physics A property of matter equal to the measure of an object's resistance to changes in either the speed or direction of its motion. The mass of an object is not dependent on gravity and therefore is different from but proportional to its weight.
8. An area of unified light, shade, or color in a painting.
9. Pharmacology A thick, pasty mixture containing drugs from which pills are formed.
10. masses The body of common people or people of low socioeconomic status: "Give me your tired, your poor,/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" (Emma Lazarus).
tr. & intr.v. massed, mass·ing, mass·es
To gather or be gathered into a mass.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, characteristic of, directed at, or attended by a large number of people: mass education; mass communication.
2. Done or carried out on a large scale: mass production.
3. Total; complete: The mass result is impressive.

Mass, capitalized =

Mass  (ms)
n.
1.
a. Public celebration of the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church and some Protestant churches.
b. The sacrament of the Eucharist.
2. A musical setting of certain parts of the Mass, especially the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.

Catholics don't hold mass.  They hold Mass.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong and the guy really was incredibly fat.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 04, 2013, 01:00:06 AM
I actually stumbled at the title of the thread.  It seems to suggest that Paul VI was really really fat.  

I think this thread has reached "critical liturgy".  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 04, 2013, 01:07:48 AM
No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy". 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 01:11:25 AM
No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy". 

I'd like to say otherwise, but sadly, I've found no one who "critical liturgies" like Gaston- I mean, the Orthodox.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Agabus on November 04, 2013, 01:27:04 AM
No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy".  

I'd like to say otherwise, but sadly, I've found no one who "critical liturgies" like Gaston- I mean, the Orthodox.
We are really quite good at expectorating at the Devil.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 01:29:21 AM
No one surpasses the Orthodox when it comes to "critical liturgy". 

I'd like to say otherwise, but sadly, I've found no one who "critical liturgies" like Gaston- I mean, the Orthodox.
We are extremely good at expectorating at the Devil.

You mean you think happy thoughts of Paschas gone by, light and aim a candle (or trikiria if a Bishop) and shout "Expecto Patronum?"
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 04, 2013, 10:23:51 AM
How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?

Louisville, Kentucky.

Have you checked this one? http://www.stmartinoftourschurch.org/ (http://www.stmartinoftourschurch.org/)
St. Martin of Tours - their website looks pretty good and they have Mass in the Extraordinary Form on a regular basis.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Santagranddad on November 04, 2013, 11:31:36 AM
Mass in the extraordinary form???????????? Is this code for something bizarre?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Schultz on November 04, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Mass in the extraordinary form???????????? Is this code for something bizarre?

The "old Latin Mass" is known as the the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

The "Pauline" mass is known as the Ordinary Form.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 04:14:45 PM
Mass in the extraordinary form???????????? Is this code for something bizarre?

The "old Latin Mass" is known as the the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

The "Pauline" mass is known as the Ordinary Form.

Why they just don't call them "old Mass" and "new Mass" I'll never know.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: William on November 04, 2013, 04:49:04 PM
How does one find an orthodox Catholic Church?

The most traditional parish in my city has a picture on its front page of a woman holding a communion host.

What city are you in?

Louisville, Kentucky.

Have you checked this one? http://www.stmartinoftourschurch.org/ (http://www.stmartinoftourschurch.org/)
St. Martin of Tours - their website looks pretty good and they have Mass in the Extraordinary Form on a regular basis.

That's actually the parish I was referring to. Looks like they removed the photo.

It's pretty nice. They have a few Byzantine style icons, no instruments other than an organ, the preaching was pretty good the few times I went.

If only I could forget Orthodoxy and go back to Rome.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 04, 2013, 04:55:42 PM
If only I could forget Orthodoxy and go back to Rome.

That feeling might wither away over time. I went to a Tridentine mass few weeks back and was suprised how used I had got to some Byzantine elements over the years despite initial problems with getting used to the Byzantine services. It was weird to attend a church without iconostasis and with organs for starters.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 04, 2013, 07:25:50 PM
Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old
Mass is. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 04, 2013, 07:29:55 PM
Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old
Mass is. 

Now they have no excuse. (http://www.livemass.org/LiveMass/Daily.html)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 10:14:38 PM
Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old
Mass is. 

I'm under 30 years old. I beg to differ.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: sheenj on November 04, 2013, 10:34:45 PM
Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old Mass is. 

I'm under 30 years old. I beg to differ.

You are also posting on an internet board.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 10:37:17 PM
Most people under 50 off the internet have no clue what the old Mass is. 

I'm under 30 years old. I beg to differ.

You are also posting on an internet board.

Good point.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 04, 2013, 10:41:32 PM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 10:47:12 PM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 

Agreed. Except the silent canon- I could never get used to that.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Agabus on November 04, 2013, 10:49:37 PM
I think without exception the people I know IRL who use the phrase "the extraordinary form" are all converts.

Everyone else just says "the old mass."

Heck, I've known cradle Catholics who didn't know the EF was different than the NO until they were in their 30s. They thought it was the same, just in Latin.

That's how I know NO is the new tradition. People have shorter memories than we give them credit for.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 10:58:15 PM
I think without exception the people I know IRL who use the phrase "the extraordinary form" are all converts.

Everyone else just says "the old mass."

Heck, I've known cradle Catholics who didn't know the EF was different than the NO until they were in their 30s. They thought it was the same, just in Latin.

That's how I know NO is the new tradition. People have shorter memories than we give them credit for.

I suppose it depends on how much of a difference there was, and how sharp of a contrast. If you go from, say Latin Mass, to giant walking Jesus puppets with dancing people in the sanctuary, running about sprinkling holy water like people are catching fire, and using Kool-Aid pitchers for cruets, they will notice a difference. Sadly, I'm seen exactly that kind of Mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 04, 2013, 11:05:03 PM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 

Agreed. Except the silent canon- I could never get used to that.

I go back and forth on it.  On the one hand, I appreciate pregnant silence, but on the other hand it's fairly short-lived, frequently punctuated by bell-ringing, and, if at a sung Mass, is of even shorter duration.  I think it's an interesting development, considering no other Liturgy has an entirely silent anaphora, and how much importance the RC's placed on the words of institution.  The words which effect transubstantiation are said silently, but the actions are dramatised, which is almost the opposite of what the East does.  I also wonder how "safe" it is: at least with the ad libbing that often happens with the Mass texts nowadays, you can hear it and know it's wrong, but who's to say that a priest reciting a silent canon is actually reciting the canon?  And it was clearly meant to be recited audibly.  

What I really can't get used to is Low Mass.  At least where I go, the silent parts are silent, the audible parts are mumbled, and the Mass is drowned out by the blessed babbling of children and the congregants shifting in their creaking pews and kneelers.  The homily and the Leonine Prayers are the only thing you can hear.  I don't know why the priests can't read the audible parts louder?  The silent canon helps confirm the idea that the Liturgy ought to be mostly silent, if not in theory then in practice.  High Mass, on the other hand, is a sublime experience, at least equal to all the Eastern Liturgies and even better than one or two of them IMO (comparing an average RC parish Mass to an average EO/OO parish Liturgy).  I want to like Low Mass, but no matter how often I attend, I can't.        
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Agabus on November 04, 2013, 11:07:04 PM
I think without exception the people I know IRL who use the phrase "the extraordinary form" are all converts.

Everyone else just says "the old mass."

Heck, I've known cradle Catholics who didn't know the EF was different than the NO until they were in their 30s. They thought it was the same, just in Latin.

That's how I know NO is the new tradition. People have shorter memories than we give them credit for.

I suppose it depends on how much of a difference there was, and how sharp of a contrast. If you go from, say Latin Mass, to giant walking Jesus puppets with dancing people in the sanctuary, running about sprinkling holy water like people are catching fire, and using Kool-Aid pitchers for cruets, they will notice a difference. Sadly, I'm seen exactly that kind of Mass.
Nah, these were just genteel Catholics from Mobile who attended a quiet low Mass in an old church. They'd have possibly gotten violent if the creepy puppets walked in.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 04, 2013, 11:13:05 PM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 

Agreed. Except the silent canon- I could never get used to that.

I go back and forth on it.  On the one hand, I appreciate pregnant silence, but on the other hand it's fairly short-lived, frequently punctuated by bell-ringing, and, if at a sung Mass, is of even shorter duration.  I think it's an interesting development, considering no other Liturgy has an entirely silent anaphora, and how much importance the RC's placed on the words of institution.  The words which effect transubstantiation are said silently, but the actions are dramatised, which is almost the opposite of what the East does.  I also wonder how "safe" it is: at least with the ad libbing that often happens with the Mass texts nowadays, you can hear it and know it's wrong, but who's to say that a priest reciting a silent canon is actually reciting the canon?  And it was clearly meant to be recited audibly.  

What I really can't get used to is Low Mass.  At least where I go, the silent parts are silent, the audible parts are mumbled, and the Mass is drowned out by the blessed babbling of children and the congregants shifting in their creaking pews and kneelers.  The homily and the Leonine Prayers are the only thing you can hear.  I don't know why the priests can't read the audible parts louder?  The silent canon helps confirm the idea that the Liturgy ought to be mostly silent, if not in theory then in practice.  High Mass, on the other hand, is a sublime experience, at least equal to all the Eastern Liturgies and even better than one or two of them IMO (comparing an average RC parish Mass to an average EO/OO parish Liturgy).  I want to like Low Mass, but no matter how often I attend, I can't.        

I haven't been to enough Low Masses to know- however, I've seen two ends of the NO spectrum- one the closest equivalent to a Tridentine High Mass ,with deacons in dalmatics, properly vested servers, incense, chant and occasionally chanted propers; and the closest thing to a Low Mass, which takes roughly 30 minutes, has one server at best, and the priest mumbles every last word or tries to ad lib and rush their way through. Sadly, I've seen a praise-and-worship laced mixture of the two conducted by even Bishops, most commonly at the LifeTeen events I go to due to being under 25 and in need to get out of my house, yet despise thoroughly.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 04, 2013, 11:50:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Isn't this from a vagante group at least?
And that makes it okay? The most Broad Church Anglicans would be ashamed to try this, and considering the past 40 years, that's saying something.

Not "okay," but at least not a RC problem is all.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 12:11:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Isn't this from a vagante group at least?
And that makes it okay? The most Broad Church Anglicans would be ashamed to try this, and considering the past 40 years, that's saying something.

  Not "okay," but at least not a RC problem is all.

But it is- just because it's a vagante RC group that tried this, doesn't mean that some non-vagante priests haven't thought of trying something like this. I can personally attest having to deal with irritating LifeTeen Masses back in my Catholic high school years. While not as absolutely out-there, they still served to do more to distract me from the Mass than to draw me into it. "This is my Body, which shall be given up for you." My Lord and my... wait, why are you lowering Him so fast? "...Do this in remembrance of me." My Jesus, merc- Oh come on, can't I have one second to adore? "The Mystery of Faith..." We proclaim your death, O Lord... wait, why is he halfway through the Anaphora already? Please, O Lord, make him slow down! "Through Him and With Him and in Him.." Finally, I have a moment... "Our Father who art in..." I stand corrected. "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World.." Have mercy on us. Receive me, O Lord today as- oh come on, you can't possibly have started Communion that fast?!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 05, 2013, 12:24:05 AM
But it is- just because it's a vagante RC group that tried this, doesn't mean that some non-vagante priests haven't thought of trying something like this. I can personally attest having to deal with irritating LifeTeen Masses back in my Catholic high school years. While not as absolutely out-there, they still served to do more to distract me from the Mass than to draw me into it. "This is my Body, which shall be given up for you." My Lord and my... wait, why are you lowering Him so fast? "...Do this in remembrance of me." My Jesus, merc- Oh come on, can't I have one second to adore? "The Mystery of Faith..." We proclaim your death, O Lord... wait, why is he halfway through the Anaphora already? Please, O Lord, make him slow down! "Through Him and With Him and in Him.." Finally, I have a moment... "Our Father who art in..." I stand corrected. "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World.." Have mercy on us. Receive me, O Lord today as- oh come on, you can't possibly have started Communion that fast?!

I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on November 05, 2013, 12:28:30 AM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 01:08:49 AM
But it is- just because it's a vagante RC group that tried this, doesn't mean that some non-vagante priests haven't thought of trying something like this. I can personally attest having to deal with irritating LifeTeen Masses back in my Catholic high school years. While not as absolutely out-there, they still served to do more to distract me from the Mass than to draw me into it. "This is my Body, which shall be given up for you." My Lord and my... wait, why are you lowering Him so fast? "...Do this in remembrance of me." My Jesus, merc- Oh come on, can't I have one second to adore? "The Mystery of Faith..." We proclaim your death, O Lord... wait, why is he halfway through the Anaphora already? Please, O Lord, make him slow down! "Through Him and With Him and in Him.." Finally, I have a moment... "Our Father who art in..." I stand corrected. "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the World.." Have mercy on us. Receive me, O Lord today as- oh come on, you can't possibly have started Communion that fast?!

I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.

Feel very lucky. The worst you've likely seen is sped-up Vigils and organ-ridden Liturgies.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 05, 2013, 01:20:58 AM
I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.

Feel very lucky. The worst you've likely seen is sped-up Vigils and organ-ridden Liturgies.

Well, the daily Mass at my university that I just witnessed was a bit of a barebones/irreverent mess. Half of the people didn't even kneel during the consecration/etc. (I don't know what the parts are that are called that require kneeling). Apparently since it had folding chairs and no kneelers, people just don't kneel. There was a plainclothes eucharistic minister (and female FWIW) up around the altar and then handling the chalice, which still baffles me every time I see it. The priest did it in a rote manner and almost as if he were bored - being older may have something do with it, IDK. I regret going to these sorts of Masses every time the sign of peace stuff comes around, with people walking across the church to hug/shake hands, wave at people, etc. Breaks any reverence that was left, IMO.

OTOH, I have seen a nice, reverent OF Mass done at a wedding to stand in contrast. I really enjoyed it, and it felt a bit more like what I always had expected Catholicism to be. I plan to visit an EF Mass at a classmate's FSSP church soon, which should be good.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 08:35:51 AM
I'll concede on that point since I don't have that kind of experience, having never been RC myself.

I just meant to defend against that specific video in question. I wasn't trying to say that nothing like that happens in non-vagante groups.

Feel very lucky. The worst you've likely seen is sped-up Vigils and organ-ridden Liturgies.

Well, the daily Mass at my university that I just witnessed was a bit of a barebones/irreverent mess. Half of the people didn't even kneel during the consecration/etc. (I don't know what the parts are that are called that require kneeling). Apparently since it had folding chairs and no kneelers, people just don't kneel. There was a plainclothes eucharistic minister (and female FWIW) up around the altar and then handling the chalice, which still baffles me every time I see it. The priest did it in a rote manner and almost as if he were bored - being older may have something do with it, IDK. I regret going to these sorts of Masses every time the sign of peace stuff comes around, with people walking across the church to hug/shake hands, wave at people, etc. Breaks any reverence that was left, IMO.

OTOH, I have seen a nice, reverent OF Mass done at a wedding to stand in contrast. I really enjoyed it, and it felt a bit more like what I always had expected Catholicism to be. I plan to visit an EF Mass at a classmate's FSSP church soon, which should be good.

FSSP? Oh, it should be good then. I do agree with you that older priest seem more bored- one of the most rote Masses I've seen was at the beautiful shrine of Blessed Father Seelos in New Orleans. Beautiful church, but the priest didn't seem to care much.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Yurysprudentsiya on November 05, 2013, 10:09:58 AM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.

I agree.  They had a beautiful liturgy which organically derived from pre schism liturgies.   To me the only problem was that it was in a dead language.   I believe that, insofar as possible, the services should be celebrated in the vernacular.   This is why I also think that the Russian Orthodox should celebrate in modern Russian.   The RCC would have been further ahead if they just translated the mass and maintained the rubrics. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Schultz on November 05, 2013, 10:40:07 AM
Mass in the extraordinary form???????????? Is this code for something bizarre?

The "old Latin Mass" is known as the the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

The "Pauline" mass is known as the Ordinary Form.

Why they just don't call them "old Mass" and "new Mass" I'll never know.

EF and OF are "technical" terms.  Most people "in the pews" probably refer to them as the "old Mass" and the "new Mass" or just "Mass."

The Vatican uses EF and OF because they want us to believe they are the same liturgical experience just in different forms. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Santagranddad on November 05, 2013, 10:42:03 AM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.

I agree.  They had a beautiful liturgy which organically derived from pre schism liturgies.   To me the only problem was that it was in a dead language.   I believe that, insofar as possible, the services should be celebrated in the vernacular.   This is why I also think that the Russian Orthodox should celebrate in modern Russian.   The RCC would have been further ahead if they just translated the mass and maintained the rubrics. 

Translating church services into the language we use everyday has the obvious benefit of accessibility. No quarrel with that, and it is not new. May I suggest that in our very politicised times translating services may then fall under influences which are secular, stem from a world view alien to the mind of Church, and have the objective or purpose of falling into line with values of this world and not that of the Church.

Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 05, 2013, 10:56:42 AM
The Vatican uses EF and OF because they want us to believe they are the same liturgical experience just in different forms

 ;)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Yurysprudentsiya on November 05, 2013, 10:59:23 AM
The old Mass is the awesome Mass. 
Yep. The liturgical reforms of the 60s and 70s should have merely translated the TLM into the venacular.

I agree.  They had a beautiful liturgy which organically derived from pre schism liturgies.   To me the only problem was that it was in a dead language.   I believe that, insofar as possible, the services should be celebrated in the vernacular.   This is why I also think that the Russian Orthodox should celebrate in modern Russian.   The RCC would have been further ahead if they just translated the mass and maintained the rubrics. 

Translating church services into the language we use everyday has the obvious benefit of accessibility. No quarrel with that, and it is not new. May I suggest that in our very politicised times translating services may then fall under influences which are secular, stem from a world view alien to the mind of Church, and have the objective or purpose of falling into line with values of this world and not that of the Church.



You've lost me.  How does translation into the vernacular by church approved translators become alien to the mind of the church?   It is far more preferable than someone believing that Church Slavonic or Latin is somehow a more holy tongue, or indeed the language that God speaks.  If someone is not Orthodox, requiring them to learn a foreign language to participate intelligently and consistently or even to relegate the language of prayer to a dead language seems contrary to the spirit of the Gospel.  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Santagranddad on November 05, 2013, 11:31:33 AM
Sorry, no intention of losing you.

Translation is never a neutral activity. Examples of secular mores in Bible translation might include so-called inclusive language. Elsewhere there have been calls previously to edit language which some representing the Jewish community. In each case the subject text was not simply to be translated from one language to another, but the text itself 'massaged' to fit in with norms of this age.

I merely express a view. And note that in looking at RC liturgical language change the new text differed in important ways from that that preceded it. So my caution is not without basis.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Yurysprudentsiya on November 05, 2013, 11:35:15 AM
Sorry, no intention of losing you.

Translation is never a neutral activity. Examples of secular mores in Bible translation might include so-called inclusive language. Elsewhere there have been calls previously to edit language which some representing the Jewish community. In each case the subject text was not simply to be translated from one language to another, but the text itself 'massaged' to fit in with norms of this age.

I merely express a view. And note that in looking at RC liturgical language change the new text differed in important ways from that that preceded it. So my caution is not without basis.

Ok.  We are in agreement then that it must be done with caution and faithfulness to the original.  Not a so called dynamic translation as it were. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Apotheoun on November 05, 2013, 04:26:20 PM
The division of liturgical services into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" by the modern Roman Church reminds me of the approach adopted by Episcopal Church in America during the 1970s with its "Rite 1" and Rite 2." It all seems very artificial to me.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alveus Lacuna on November 05, 2013, 04:32:57 PM
Maybe the same way that Orthodox saw a global shift in a return to traditional iconography in the last century, the Catholics might hope for some global shift to a more traditional liturgy.

I don't judge the situation anymore, it just utterly baffles me how a church could go from being so beautiful and reverent to so campy and inane, so very casual and profane. What the hell happened?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 04:40:20 PM
Maybe the same way that Orthodox saw a global shift in a return to traditional iconography in the last century, the Catholics might hope for some global shift to a more traditional liturgy.

I don't judge the situation anymore, it just utterly baffles me how a church could go from being so beautiful and reverent to so campy and inane, so very casual and profane. What the hell happened?

Two words: Annibale Bugnini.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: James2 on November 05, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
I knew a Roman Catholic priest back in the 80's who described himself as a pre-Vatican II liberal, but he was certainly orthodox (small "o").  He thought that the old rite was "cluttered" and that it was good to remove said "clutter", but that the reform had gone too far.  He still used the Reproaches in the Good Friday liturgy long after most other parishes dropped them for being anti-Semitic.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 05, 2013, 04:58:18 PM
I knew a Roman Catholic priest back in the 80's who described himself as a pre-Vatican II liberal, but he was certainly orthodox (small "o").  He thought that the old rite was "cluttered" and that it was good to remove said "clutter", but that the reform had gone too far.  He still used the Reproaches in the Good Friday liturgy long after most other parishes dropped them for being anti-Semitic.

Cluttered it was.

The extensive readings for Mass and the Office were a great idea. Abandoning the one Psalter/week scheme and censuring what was deemed unpalatable for the politically correct - not so much.

If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on November 05, 2013, 05:01:05 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 05:01:20 PM
I knew a Roman Catholic priest back in the 80's who described himself as a pre-Vatican II liberal, but he was certainly orthodox (small "o").  He thought that the old rite was "cluttered" and that it was good to remove said "clutter", but that the reform had gone too far.  He still used the Reproaches in the Good Friday liturgy long after most other parishes dropped them for being anti-Semitic.

Cluttered it was.

The extensive readings for Mass and the Office were a great idea. Abandoning of the one Psalter/week scheme and censuring what was deemed unpalatable for the politically correct - not so much.

If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.

So have I. Well-pronounced Latin being the key word here, and not the mumbled sort that can be mistaken for Spanish, French, or some kind of Elvish that the server can't even hear well enough to respond to.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 05, 2013, 05:19:23 PM
What the hell happened?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 05, 2013, 05:21:29 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.

I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 05:21:37 PM
What the hell happened?

The bolded word is what happened, my friends. Either that, or someone's summoning our resident mod.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 05:23:16 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.

I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 

Well, if they use for the General intercessions a proper Ektenia...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 05, 2013, 05:23:38 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Papist on November 05, 2013, 05:28:55 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
I've seen it done. For Easter Vigil, Christmas Midnight Mass, and other such occassions, the pastor at my old Roman parish would celebrate ad orientem with sacred music.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 05:30:18 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
I've seen it done. For Easter Vigil, Christmas Midnight Mass, and other such occassions, the pastor at my old Roman parish would celebrate ad orientem with sacred music.

The same at my grandmother's- I should know, I am part of the Christmas and Easter quintet. And yes, I mean quintet.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: J Michael on November 05, 2013, 05:32:04 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This would be extraordinarily refreshing!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 05, 2013, 05:37:48 PM
I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 

No lace cottas and rectangular chasubles is considerable improvement! 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 05, 2013, 05:38:46 PM
I'm with Papist.  If both the old rite and the new rite are celebrated according to these stipulations, they will both be reverent, but I'm not sure the new could be better than the old. 

No lace cottas and rectangular chasubles is such an improvement! 

Agreed. Though the polyester roll-collar ponchos are not...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 03:00:26 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 06, 2013, 03:33:42 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

"Wow" was not the first word in my mind .
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 03:41:06 PM
LOL.  The first word in my mind was actually a compound expletive rhyming with "other ducker", but I settled on "Wow".  Why? 

For the children.   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 03:56:02 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: J Michael on November 06, 2013, 04:00:17 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: J Michael on November 06, 2013, 04:11:03 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 :'( :'( :'(

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 04:15:10 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 :'( :'( :'(

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.

It was Mass for a children's hospital, I think (I don't speak German like the people in the video), but it looked fairly legitimate, if horribly wrong. I hope it's not a real Mass, because otherwise my hope for European Latins has been nearly extinguished.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: J Michael on November 06, 2013, 04:17:16 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 :'( :'( :'(

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.

It was Mass for a children's hospital, I think (I don't speak German like the people in the video), but it looked fairly legitimate, if horribly wrong. I hope it's not a real Mass, because otherwise my hope for European Latins has been nearly extinguished.

Oy. Vey.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 04:27:53 PM
Wow. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzdBAX02KHE#t=257)  By no means envisioned by the liturgical books, but still. 

What is the thinking process within the mind of the priest who sets out to celebrate Mass with such displays incorporated into the "celebration" but decides to wear an alb and stole?  Of all the things that could've been incorporated but weren't, why say yes to vestments at all?   

What in the name of all that is holy did I just see?
Dunno.  Can't see it.

There are times, apparently, when not being able to access youtube crap is quite a good thing.

Circus Mass. Literal circus Mass. I'll leave it at that.

 :'( :'( :'(

Sorry, but I've got to ask--real priest in a real church?  Not some put-up job production??  I truly fear what your answers might be.

It was Mass for a children's hospital, I think (I don't speak German like the people in the video), but it looked fairly legitimate, if horribly wrong. I hope it's not a real Mass, because otherwise my hope for European Latins has been nearly extinguished.

Oy. Vey.

That's Yiddish, but the feeling is mutual.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 06, 2013, 04:29:17 PM
European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860 (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 04:44:57 PM
European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860 (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860)

Ad orientem and/or a crucifix on the altar and a visible tabernacle, or it doesn't count.  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: newtoorthodoxy on November 06, 2013, 04:55:40 PM
Nope, sorry, I still think the guy is fat. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 05:09:12 PM
European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860 (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860)

Is that a Gradual being sung instead of the Responsorial Psalm?   :D

Alpo, thanks for posting these videos.  I enjoyed the previous one as well. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 06, 2013, 05:19:40 PM
European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860 (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860)

Is that a Gradual being sung instead of the Responsorial Psalm?   :D

What are you referring to? I've been EO for too many years. I don't recognize Western terms anymore.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 06, 2013, 05:21:31 PM
European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860 (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860)

Quite true. I think it depends on the country.

But no wonder the churches in parts of Germany are empty, a few oddities like that and people escape for the mountains...

When  you watch videos like Alpo posted you can envision those things which we share with the Romans, while the circus mass exentuates that which keeps us apart.

We Orthodox may have jurisdictional chaos, but we do not have liturgical or theological chaos. Seems there should be a happy medium out there somewhere to deal with both types of chaos, you'd think......
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 05:22:20 PM
The hymn after the first reading (from Habakkuk, if I heard correctly...I guess it's the same in Finnish and Malayalam).  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
European Latins

Thou shalt not generalize.

Here's another European RC mass:

http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860 (http://areena.yle.fi/tv/2024860)

Is that a Gradual being sung instead of the Responsorial Psalm?   :D

What are you referring to? I've been EO for too many years. I don't recognize Western terms anymore.

It's the Prokeimenon for Latins.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 05:27:28 PM
It's the Prokeimenon for Latins.

Is it really, though?  It comes after the reading, not before. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 05:30:21 PM
It's the Prokeimenon for Latins.

Is it really, though?  It comes after the reading, not before. 

But it comes before the Epistle.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 06, 2013, 05:35:26 PM
The hymn after the first reading (from Habakkuk, if I heard correctly...I guess it's the same in Finnish and Malayalam).  

One k too much. It's "Habakuk" in here.

And apparently you were correct about the hymn after OT reading being Gradual. Is that somehow wrong?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 06:35:11 PM
The hymn after the first reading (from Habakkuk, if I heard correctly...I guess it's the same in Finnish and Malayalam).  

One k too much. It's "Habakuk" in here.

Habakkuk has three K's in the USA.  :P

Quote
And apparently you were correct about the hymn after OT reading being Gradual. Is that somehow wrong?

Not wrong at all, on the contrary it's ideal.  Would that it was done more. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 06:39:04 PM
But it comes before the Epistle.

This is only the case when the Mass has three readings.  When the Mass has two readings (Epistle and Gospel), which is always in the EF and on all feasts, memorials, and ferias in the OF, the Gradual occupies its traditional place: after the first reading. 

I don't think Gradual = Prokeimenon, strictly speaking, but it might be a convenient answer if accuracy isn't the most important thing. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 06:42:01 PM
But it comes before the Epistle.

This is only the case when the Mass has three readings.  When the Mass has two readings (Epistle and Gospel), which is always in the EF and on all feasts, memorials, and ferias in the OF, the Gradual occupies its traditional place: after the first reading. 

I don't think Gradual = Prokeimenon, strictly speaking, but it might be a convenient answer if accuracy isn't the most important thing. 

Oh. Thanks. You're right, since the Prokeimenon comes before the OT reading at Vespers. Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: James2 on November 06, 2013, 06:44:36 PM
LOL.  The first word in my mind was actually a compound expletive rhyming with "other ducker", but I settled on "Wow".  Why? 

For the children.   

I couldn't stand watching the whole thing, so I skipped around.  One part looked like a dinner theater.  Unbelievable.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 06, 2013, 06:45:43 PM
I don't think Gradual = Prokeimenon, strictly speaking, but it might be a convenient answer if accuracy isn't the most important thing. 

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradual
Until about the fifth century, it included singing a whole psalm. They were sung in the form of a psalmus responsorius, i.e. the whole text was chanted by a reader appointed for this purpose. For some time before Pope Gregory I, to sing these psalms was a privilege of deacons at Rome, a privilege he suppressed in 595. The people answered each clause or verse with an acclamation. This apparently dates back to the synagogue tradition, and can even be seen in the structure of some Psalms (such as 136|135). Originally, there was a psalm sung between each reading, of which in the fifth century there were three (Prophets, Epistle, and Gospel). When the Old Testament reading was later dropped, the other two psalms became the Gradual and Alleluia, ordinarily sung one after another, until the 1970 Missal restored the three readings on Sundays and Solemnities.

The fact that the chanters go to the centre of the church/ambo to sing it could serve to compare it to the katabasiai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabasia), but those are not Psalms and are sung at Matins.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 06, 2013, 06:47:34 PM
Oh. Thanks. You're right, since the Prokeimenon comes before the OT reading at Vespers. Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

Actually, I shouldn't have said the EF Mass always has two readings, there are certain occasions (e.g., Ember days) when there are more.  But never does a Gradual introduce a reading, it is always a response to the reading. 

What is SAP Vespers?  Vespers dubbed in Spanish? 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: James2 on November 06, 2013, 06:47:52 PM


If the Novus Ordo mass is celebrated reverently - using the Roman Canon, Gregorian chant and well-pronounced Latin - it can be better than the old rite. I've seen it done.
I don't know about better, but the new rite can be celebrated very reverently.

This idea of reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is starting to sound like a mythical creature or winning in lottery. Some have heard about it here and there but nobody has never actually seen or attended one.
I've seen it done. For Easter Vigil, Christmas Midnight Mass, and other such occassions, the pastor at my old Roman parish would celebrate ad orientem with sacred music.

The same at my grandmother's- I should know, I am part of the Christmas and Easter quintet. And yes, I mean quintet.

I've seen it done well at St. Catherine of Siena in Great Falls, VA, and the Brompton Oratory in London.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 06:49:56 PM
Oh. Thanks. You're right, since the Prokeimenon comes before the OT reading at Vespers. Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

Actually, I shouldn't have said the EF Mass always has two readings, there are certain occasions (e.g., Ember days) when there are more.  But never does a Gradual introduce a reading, it is always a response to the reading. 

What is SAP Vespers?  Vespers dubbed in Spanish? 

Sundays after Pentecost.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 06, 2013, 06:53:52 PM
Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

No - only for Feasts of Our Lord, the Theotokos and the more important Saints.

They occur primarily during Lent, because they originally served for the instruction of catechumens.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 06, 2013, 07:04:04 PM
Speaking of which, are there ever any OT readings for ordinary SAP Vespers? Not related, but curious.

No - only for Feasts of Our Lord, the Theotokos and the more important Saints.

They occur primarily during Lent, because they originally served for the instruction of catechumens.

Oh. That explains the number of readings in my abbreviated Triodion. Thanks.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 08, 2013, 05:40:53 PM
FWIW I just spent a week on retreat at St. Andrew's Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in Valyermo, CA (http://www.saintandrewsabbey.com/ (http://www.saintandrewsabbey.com/)). Attended Mass every day in the "ordinary" form and it was quite simple and reverent.

Of course they also do the canonical Hours.

No clowns or circus animals in sight (just two big German shepherds and lots of ducks).

Not to mention having FANTASTIC food at every meal!  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 11, 2013, 04:47:07 PM
FWIW I just spent a week on retreat at St. Andrew's Abbey, a Benedictine monastery in Valyermo, CA (http://www.saintandrewsabbey.com/ (http://www.saintandrewsabbey.com/)). Attended Mass every day in the "ordinary" form and it was quite simple and reverent.

Of course they also do the canonical Hours.

No clowns or circus animals in sight (just two big German shepherds and lots of ducks).

Not to mention having FANTASTIC food at every meal!  ;D

And I just spent the weekend on retreat at St. Joseph's Abbey and Seminary, a Benedictine monastery in St. Bens, Louisiana. Attended OF Mass, Lauds, vespers and Compline each day, and it was done reverently as well. And all the seminarians and my fellow possible seminarians I met on retreat? Traditional and orthodox in doctrine, and in favour of Ad orientem and knowledgeable of both the Byzantine and Latin Rite.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 11, 2013, 06:36:30 PM
Yes - I think if you are disillusioned with how the Mass is done at your parish church, do some research and find a monastery. Chances are pretty good it will be pretty good.  8)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 11, 2013, 06:42:05 PM
We Orthodox may have jurisdictional chaos, but we do not have liturgical or theological chaos.

Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 11, 2013, 06:51:14 PM
Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church; the Greek Orthodox Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church.  They do not use the same rite for their liturgical services. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 11, 2013, 08:27:06 PM
Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church; the Greek Orthodox Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church.  They do not use the same rite for their liturgical services. 

This, and I'd say yes - the Ethiopian Church is an Orthodox Church. 8)

BTW, do Ethiopians call their service Divine Liturgy or something else?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 12, 2013, 02:43:58 AM
Is the Ethiopian Orthodox Church an Orthodox Church? Their worship service does not seem to be all that traditional at least when you compare it to a typical Greek Orthodox service.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church; the Greek Orthodox Church is an Eastern Orthodox Church.  They do not use the same rite for their liturgical services.  
The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 12, 2013, 11:41:11 AM
The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

Does anyone think this is a fair comparison?

On the one hand, the "lively elements" in the Ethiopian liturgy have been practiced for centuries and stem from their own culture, influenced in particular by Judaism as well as Christianity.  It may be "lively" compared to a more "sedate" tradition like Greek or Latin liturgy, but it is still traditional and of venerable pedigree. 

Regarding the Roman Catholic liturgy you referred to, can you or any Roman Catholic demonstrate that the liturgy was served according to the norms of currently issued liturgical books, and that the ebullient, exuberant rites and customs incorporated therein are traditional to the Roman rite? 

If not, you are comparing apples and koalas.   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: sheenj on November 12, 2013, 11:44:34 AM
The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

If I'm not mistaken, the more "lively" parts of EOTC worship are concentrated during their version of the Hours. I don't think they use liturgical instruments and such during the Liturgy itself.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 12, 2013, 12:38:24 PM
The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4

Does anyone think this is a fair comparison?

On the one hand, the "lively elements" in the Ethiopian liturgy have been practiced for centuries and stem from their own culture, influenced in particular by Judaism as well as Christianity.  It may be "lively" compared to a more "sedate" tradition like Greek or Latin liturgy, but it is still traditional and of venerable pedigree.  

Regarding the Roman Catholic liturgy you referred to, can you or any Roman Catholic demonstrate that the liturgy was served according to the norms of currently issued liturgical books, and that the ebullient, exuberant rites and customs incorporated therein are traditional to the Roman rite?  

If not, you are comparing apples and koalas.    

How about this:

Longstanding variations on a theme:

Dolmades and holubki: traditional stuffed leaves

Ravioli, pirohi and  pot stickers: traditional stuffed pastas

Beer, vodka, ouzo, slivovitz, saki: traditional alcoholic beverages

Ethiopian liturgical exuberance: traditional East African worship

Clown Masses: ??

Jalapeno pierogi: ??  http://www.pierogies.com/retail/products/product.aspx?product=024
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Altar Server on November 12, 2013, 01:27:03 PM
Silly Franks. Just replace Novus Ordo with dialogue version of Tridentine mass in vernacular.

I never understood why they didn't just do that at least then they would be in continuity with the liturgical tradition of the church.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 12, 2013, 01:27:33 PM
Jalapeno pierogi: ??  http://www.pierogies.com/retail/products/product.aspx?product=024

What an atrocity.  Is there nothing that can escape being Mexified?  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: J Michael on November 12, 2013, 02:20:27 PM
Jalapeno pierogi: ??  http://www.pierogies.com/retail/products/product.aspx?product=024

What an atrocity.  Is there nothing that can escape being Mexified?  

No.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on November 12, 2013, 02:57:45 PM
The discussion on this thread touched on a controversial Roman Catholic liturgy designed for circus people and the descriptive word chaotic was used. However, the Ethiopian Orthodox worship service seems to me to have quite lively elements. How do people here feel about the Ethiopian Orthodox rite of worship? Does anyone object to the ebullience and exhuberance which are shown in the Ethiopian worship services, or are your objections reserved only for the Latins and their Masses?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6EigDGD8J4
According to Rev. Dr. Mebratu Kiros Gebru, who gave a talk (transcript here http://www.transcriptsearch.com.es/id/wU3RQieF55Q (http://www.transcriptsearch.com.es/id/wU3RQieF55Q)) for the University of Toronto Dept. of Orthodox Studies, the more energetic dancing and drumming is reserved for an additional type of prayer service, separate from both the Divine Liturgy and from the Hours. All music during the actual liturgy, although I believe drums are still used, is thoroughly solemn.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 12, 2013, 04:43:40 PM
Jalapeno pierogi: ??  http://www.pierogies.com/retail/products/product.aspx?product=024

What an atrocity.  Is there nothing that can escape being Mexified?  

No.

Not even actual Spanish food.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 12, 2013, 11:17:31 PM
All music during the actual liturgy, although I believe drums are still used, is thoroughly solemn.
I would say that some of the worship services of the Orthodox are quite lively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fseftB6LFHY
Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 12, 2013, 11:47:17 PM

Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

Because the Latins condemn it. (http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html)

For more information:

His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni, Piazza Pio XII, 10, 00193 Roma, Italia
Telephone: 06.69.88.40.05; 06.69.88.44.16
Fax: 06.69.88.34.99
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 12, 2013, 11:49:33 PM

Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

Because the Latins condemn it. (http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html)

For more information:

His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni, Piazza Pio XII, 10, 00193 Roma, Italia
Telephone: 06.69.88.40.05; 06.69.88.44.16
Fax: 06.69.88.34.99

Finally, someone with sense.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 12, 2013, 11:55:24 PM

Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

Because the Latins condemn it. (http://www.adoremus.org/Dance.html)

For more information:

His Eminence Antonio Card. Cañizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni, Piazza Pio XII, 10, 00193 Roma, Italia
Telephone: 06.69.88.40.05; 06.69.88.44.16
Fax: 06.69.88.34.99
So do you say that it is right to condemn Latins dancing to the beat of drums, swaying to and fro to the rhythms while in Church and on the other hand, it is OK when the Orthodox do it. For example, see 20:00 - 26:00 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwOu7W-SvSQ
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 13, 2013, 12:00:11 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Feel free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic.  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 13, 2013, 12:01:20 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 13, 2013, 12:02:34 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 13, 2013, 12:05:09 AM
Quote from: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51586.msg928128.html#msg928128
None of the Christian rites includes dancing proper. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.

Card. Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI), The Spirit of the Liturgy

If you compare the Ethiopian "dances" with sundry RC sacred ballet gaiety (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ5KbCuox3g), it's more than evident what Pope Benedict meant.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 13, 2013, 12:05:26 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 13, 2013, 12:09:54 AM
Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

Above it! (Hebrews 13:14)  :P

Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 13, 2013, 12:24:40 AM
Mrs. T's makes many types of pierogies.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: FormerReformer on November 13, 2013, 12:31:37 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on November 13, 2013, 12:33:22 AM
All music during the actual liturgy, although I believe drums are still used, is thoroughly solemn.
I would say that some of the worship services of the Orthodox are quite lively.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fseftB6LFHY
Why condemn Latins for dancing and singing at their worship services, but when the Orthodox have it, it is just fine?

As I pointed out in the exact post you quote, these Orthodox are singing and dancing at an entirely different worship service created for the purpose. If we Latins want to create a separate service for singing and dancing (which in this day and age would basically amount to attending a Christian rock concert), that is just fine. Not during the Mass. Not during the Hours. The Jews in the Temple of Jerusalem didn't do it in their services. We don't do it. The Ethiopians don't do it either.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 13, 2013, 12:39:17 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 13, 2013, 12:47:38 AM
Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

No, I'm not under Rome.  The Orthodox Church never ceased to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  We are just as Catholic as we are Orthodox. 

Catholic =/= Under Rome 
Orthodox =/= Uses an Eastern Rite
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 13, 2013, 02:05:20 AM
Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

No, I'm not under Rome.  The Orthodox Church never ceased to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  We are just as Catholic as we are Orthodox. 

Catholic =/= Under Rome 
Orthodox =/= Uses an Eastern Rite


So you are Catholic in disunion with Rome.  8)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 13, 2013, 02:11:09 AM
Or Rome is in disunion with Catholicism.  I can do this all night!  :P
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: FormerReformer on November 13, 2013, 02:22:34 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic.  

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic.  

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.

GooOOOood. Feel the sting. Embrace the sting! The sting is as that of alcohol entering a wound, cleansing any possible infections. Infections such as a need to define Christian unity as submission to a man who wears a funny hat. In true Orthodox spirit, we do not wear funny hats. Our hats are, quite simply, magnificent!

In all seriousness, as Orthodox Christians we do (as Mor says in the post above mine) lay claim to the Catholic Church. It is not that bizarre to find older Orthodox Churches in America to have either "Greek Catholic" or "Russian Catholic" in their names or articles of incorporation somewhere.  It is only due to the fact that here in the States and Western Europe the Roman Catholic Church and its "Byzantine" adherents have effectively branded the term "Catholic" that the Eastern Christian (Eastern and Oriental [how's that for redundancy]) are more often known as "Orthodox". Again, this is in all seriousness, not a jab against Byzantine Catholics. When "Byzantine Catholic" can mean either "Greek Orthodox Catholic" or "Person under the pope who happens to celebrate the Rite of St John Chrysostom every week" and the current societal weight already leans heavily in favor of the latter, "Orthodox" becomes a simple descriptive for the former.

It is similar to the way Anglo-Catholics can lay claim to the term "Catholic" because they still practice their Anglicanism in a similar manner as that of the "undivided" Church (placed in quotes because I believe that both we Orthodox and those under the Pope can agree the Church can't be divided). The same Anglo-Catholics, if they still define their faith in Trinitarian terms and subscribe wholeheartedly to the Creed (and even with certain f-words that allow this forum to stay safe for work), have absolutely no qualms about referring to themselves as "Orthodox". Further, even Low Church Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, et al, who have resisted the sirens' call of modernist syncretism might call themselves "Orthodox Christians".

Consider: Famous Roman Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote "Orthodoxy" while still an Anglican!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Cavaradossi on November 13, 2013, 02:56:29 AM
Or Rome is in disunion with Catholicism.  I can do this all night!  :P

I might wind up stealing that line.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 13, 2013, 03:55:27 AM
Do it!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 13, 2013, 04:38:32 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: sheenj on November 13, 2013, 09:32:41 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 13, 2013, 11:19:51 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

No.

Ethiopians have their venerable rites and long standing practices. EO and other OO communities who do not share the Ethiopian tradition and rites respect them but they do not mimic or incorporate them.

In many North American Eastern Orthodox parishes, families of Ethiopian immigrants attend Eastern Orthodox parishes in areas where there are no Ethiopian churches. Even in the "rust belt", a cursory review of parish life and youth programming online bears witness to increasing racial diversity - unseen a generation ago. Many of those faces are east African refugees.

But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures. (A caveat, Orthodoxy has never been burdened with "one way" as Rome was at the mid point of the last century in terms of language and even musical tradition. So, liturgy in Geez with traditional east African chant would be possible and not be viewed as " innovation." I think it can be argued that in breaking the chains of centuries of linguistic and ritual uniformity, chaotic experimentation with divergent forms grew up post Vatican 2 - the law of unintended consequences. Once you let the Genie out of the bottle, good luck putting it back inside.)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on November 13, 2013, 11:31:35 AM
But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Schultz on November 13, 2013, 11:48:14 AM
But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE)

In Ghana.  You know, Africa.

I believe podkarpatska was referring to Greek and OCA churches in America that have a number of EOTC members in their congregation.

But, please, do keep trying to make the exception the rule because you'll keep finding cool things like this.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 13, 2013, 12:36:44 PM
Consider: Famous Roman Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote "Orthodoxy" while still an Anglican!

Very true. And even though it has nothing at all to do with Eastern Orthodoxy, Amazon still categorizes it there!  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: ialmisry on November 13, 2013, 01:59:22 PM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic. 

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic. 

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.
It seems that "lack of charity" goes with the habit of looking the obvious right in the face.  And the inability to sing Kumbaya loud enough to drown out the cognitive dissonance.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 13, 2013, 02:14:19 PM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 13, 2013, 03:18:34 PM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.  If you have a problem with Orthodox Christians criticising Latin liturgical abuses that Rome also joins them in condemning, that's on you.  Fee free to be more Catholic than the Pope, we're content to simply be Catholic.  

I thought you were Orthodox?  ???

Yes, I am.  Orthodox Catholic.  

Don't confuse me, man! You say Orthodox Catholic, I think ByzCath. Okay, let's clarify- are you under an autonomous Patriarchate that is not under Rome, or are you under Rome?

[tongueincheek]Let's put it this way. All Orthodox posters on OC.net are Catholic, as it says in our Creed. 'Round these parts all persons under Rome may be called Roman Catholic by the more charitable of us Orthodox, and if we're feeling especially charitable we might even be will willing to consider to allow certain persons to call themselves "Byzantine Catholic" despite the fact that they're actually Roman Catholic, due to the whole "under the pope" thing. The less charitable will call all under the pope "Latins" regardless of what rite your particular pope-appointed patriarch happens to celebrate. [/tongueincheek]

How utterly charitable of you. I can feel the sharp sting of Christian love flowing eloquently from Eastern Orthodoxy.

GooOOOood. Feel the sting. Embrace the sting! The sting is as that of alcohol entering a wound, cleansing any possible infections. Infections such as a need to define Christian unity as submission to a man who wears a funny hat. In true Orthodox spirit, we do not wear funny hats. Our hats are, quite simply, magnificent!

In all seriousness, as Orthodox Christians we do (as Mor says in the post above mine) lay claim to the Catholic Church. It is not that bizarre to find older Orthodox Churches in America to have either "Greek Catholic" or "Russian Catholic" in their names or articles of incorporation somewhere.  It is only due to the fact that here in the States and Western Europe the Roman Catholic Church and its "Byzantine" adherents have effectively branded the term "Catholic" that the Eastern Christian (Eastern and Oriental [how's that for redundancy]) are more often known as "Orthodox". Again, this is in all seriousness, not a jab against Byzantine Catholics. When "Byzantine Catholic" can mean either "Greek Orthodox Catholic" or "Person under the pope who happens to celebrate the Rite of St John Chrysostom every week" and the current societal weight already leans heavily in favor of the latter, "Orthodox" becomes a simple descriptive for the former.

It is similar to the way Anglo-Catholics can lay claim to the term "Catholic" because they still practice their Anglicanism in a similar manner as that of the "undivided" Church (placed in quotes because I believe that both we Orthodox and those under the Pope can agree the Church can't be divided). The same Anglo-Catholics, if they still define their faith in Trinitarian terms and subscribe wholeheartedly to the Creed (and even with certain f-words that allow this forum to stay safe for work), have absolutely no qualms about referring to themselves as "Orthodox". Further, even Low Church Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, et al, who have resisted the sirens' call of modernist syncretism might call themselves "Orthodox Christians".

Consider: Famous Roman Catholic author G.K. Chesterton wrote "Orthodoxy" while still an Anglican!

By that definition, it reminds me of Protestants when they ask the question "Catholic or Christian?"  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 14, 2013, 12:09:29 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 14, 2013, 12:14:31 AM
But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE)

In Ghana.  You know, Africa.

I believe podkarpatska was referring to Greek and OCA churches in America that have a number of EOTC members in their congregation.'
But, please, do keep trying to make the exception the rule because you'll keep finding cool things like this.
I believe that the  Catholic Mass that some Orthodox are objecting to, was designed for circus people and was keeping with the traditional circus culture. If you Orthodox are going to admit inculturation into your rites, then I don't see why you should object when Roman Catholics do the same.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: stanley123 on November 14, 2013, 12:16:21 AM
So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Was this an entirely separate worship service and not part of the liturgy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 14, 2013, 01:11:11 AM
So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Was this an entirely separate worship service and not part of the liturgy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

I just see them going up to receive antidoron, and the priest himself is directing the choir. So I assume this is actually taking place after the Liturgy?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: LBK on November 14, 2013, 02:30:06 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 

Stanley, I have recently attended an RC confirmation mass of a member of my extended family, with the local bishop presiding, where, among other travesties, the newly-confirmed children were ushered behind the altar table, where they remained, smiling and jostling, for several minutes, and with some even touching the altar table and some of the objects on it.

I dare you to accuse me of slander or lying.  >:(
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 14, 2013, 08:36:08 AM
No, Stanley, we're not going to play this game.
I can understand your loyalty to your church and its various methods of worship, including the rhythmically ordered dancing to the beating of drums in church.

I'm glad you can understand my loyalty to my Church because she has a proud history.  She continues, in Ethiopia, traditions of glorifying God in dance and song that are rooted in indigenous cultural influences and an inheritance from Judaism.  In other geographic regions, this same Church celebrates in different ways, but all traditional, of ancient pedigree, and fully conforming with the faith and with the dignity proper to common worship. 

And I commend you for your loyalty to your Church.  I find it incomprehensible, but admirable and literally marvelous, that you can staunchly defend a Church which talks out of both sides of her mouth, whose leaders confirm on paper traditional liturgical practices of their own Roman rite and then go on quite often to do and allow anything but traditional liturgy in the churches.  They do this with corporate worship, with the preaching and teaching of the faith, revisionist versions of history, political activism, etc.  It takes a special man to build his house upon a rock with all the solidity of jello. 

Now let's stop.  OK?     
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 

Stanley, I have recently attended an RC confirmation mass of a member of my extended family, with the local bishop presiding, where, among other travesties, the newly-confirmed children were ushered behind the altar table, where they remained, smiling and jostling, for several minutes, and with some even touching the altar table and some of the objects on it.

I dare you to accuse me of slander or lying.  >:(

Speaking as a Catholic, I can attest that I have seen priest's so utterly disinterested in what they were doing, and cantors so annoyingly showy and attention-whoring (in the same Mass) that I just wanted to walk out. This was at the National Shrine of Fr. Seelos. A National Shrine. It's not slander, I'm just warning you that allowed or not, it happens.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: sheenj on November 14, 2013, 09:17:35 AM
So far this discussion has been about dancing in the context of the Liturgy. As Regnare and I have already explained to you three separate times, the Ethiopian church does not do this during the Qedasse. They do it in an entirely separate worship service.
Was this an entirely separate worship service and not part of the liturgy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE

??? That video isn't even of an OO church, much less an Ethiopian one.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Schultz on November 14, 2013, 09:18:44 AM
But it is unfathomable for an Orthodox believer to envision a Greek or OCA parish (or any EO parish) incorporating aspects of Ethiopian worship practices (dance and drums) or rubrics into an EO Liturgy in a misguided effort to "accommodate and be welcoming" to other cultures.
It has, however, happened, as shown in this video of Pascha in Ghana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGqUn5KQ9kE)

In Ghana.  You know, Africa.

I believe podkarpatska was referring to Greek and OCA churches in America that have a number of EOTC members in their congregation.'
But, please, do keep trying to make the exception the rule because you'll keep finding cool things like this.
I believe that the  Catholic Mass that some Orthodox are objecting to, was designed for circus people and was keeping with the traditional circus culture. If you Orthodox are going to admit inculturation into your rites, then I don't see why you should object when Roman Catholics do the same.

You keep clutching those pearls, buddy.  

I don't object so much to the dancing as to the fact that the insertion of the various add-ons don't make a damn bit of sense even in context.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 14, 2013, 10:44:34 AM
There's a difference between what's *supposed*  to happen and what *actually* happens in any given RC Mass. And 99.9% of the time the difference is:  the priest.  If he's really trying to follow the teachings of the Church you'll see a properly celebrated Mass. Otherwise you can assume he dissents on one or more doctrines. "Lex orandi lex credendi" really does seem to be true.  8)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 14, 2013, 10:55:39 AM
So I should stand by  let you slander the Roman Catholic Church with your lies? It is not true that Roman Catholics do and allow anything in church. 

I'm not slandering the Roman Catholic Church.  If anything, the Roman Catholic Church is slandering the Roman Catholic Church.  

Look, Stanley, you're the one jumping into this thread to accuse the Orthodox of denigrating RC's for doing things Orthodox do, but you make a poor case for it.  First of all, not all Orthodox do it, but only certain communities.  Second, in those places, it's either ancient (Ethiopia) or a recent attempt at inculturation (Ghana) that fits the culture.  Rome does that in Africa as well, and I don't think anyone has criticised that here.  

But you are suggesting that the existence of these forms of "liturgical dance" in Africa is the same as a couple of German priests running a fundraiser in Germany for a hospital in Bethlehem by hosting a Mass (again, in Germany) where the priests aren't fully vested, one plays a clarinet, there are belly dancing women gyrating about with snakes wrapped around their hips, and Communion is passed around to participants seated at their tables in the manner of waiters serving the salad course at a banquet.  Show me where any of these things are allowed in the rubrics of the Roman Missal, or where the Vatican has approved of these adaptations for the dioceses of Germany.  Prove to me that snake-adorned belly dancers and "Communion as hors d'oeuvres" are important, centuries old elements of German culture that can enhance the celebration of the divine mysteries.  

Of course, this can be extended to any number of liturgically questionable practices.  Rome doesn't allow them in the sense of actively permitting them: they can always point to a book or a document and say "No".  But if they have to draft a rubric or write an instruction against a practice, it's only because it's being done enough that they need to address it (that is, until a few decades of disobedience have passed, and then they finally allow it into the rubrics).  Rome knows what's going on.  The Pope meets with every bishop in the world once every five years, has papal ambassadors in every place where there are Catholics, has internet access, receives mail, uses the telephone, etc.  They know what's going on.  They know that from bishops on down, a lot of crazy stuff is going on, and they can't issue any document that will effectively put a stop to it because they won't listen (heck, the current Pope is known to have done such things before and after his ascent to the see of Rome).  But Rome clearly believes herself to have the power to do something about it, because they can restrict the activities of groups using the traditional Roman liturgy with lightning speed...the difference is that those groups are already predisposed to obedience.  The only thing Rome can do is keep trying to advocate for higher standards across the board while appointing better bishops and hopefully things will become more sane.  

If you were willing to admit that there are problems being addressed and progress is being made, but it's slow going and requires time, I think you'd find that the Orthodox are your allies, despite the differences in faith.  There are a number of Orthodox posters who have posted positive experiences with RC liturgy and posted videos or other material of beautiful services.  In real life, Pope Benedict's Summorum Pontificum was welcomed as a great step forward by none other than the Patriarch of Moscow even while his own RC bishops were busy trying to interfere with its application.  There are Orthodox who are very happy to support Roman Catholics in such things.  It's the Roman Catholics who don't know what to do with it.  Because for every Benedict XVI who will point to the Orthodox as an example of good liturgy and good liturgical theology, there is a Pope willing to violate rubrics and allow random stuff in his own Masses.  There are people who will appeal to "Ethiopian liturgical dance" in order to justify scantily clad women dancing around altars with bowls of incense in Los Angeles, but they won't appeal to "Ethiopian fasting" to increase the pre-Communion fast from its current "one hour before Communion, or they won't be interested in "Ethiopian ad orientem liturgy", or "Ethiopian five hour liturgy", or "Ethiopian orthodox teaching".  No, none of those "Ethiopian things" are worth emulating, they just want enough "Ethiopian" influence to turn the 11am Mass at St Anyone's into happy hour at Hooters.

Again, let's stop, shall we?  I don't want to have to start posting photos and videos to illustrate my point of view.  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 15, 2013, 10:38:48 PM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 15, 2013, 10:56:55 PM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

LOL.  I don't want to, but if Stanley or some other RC jumps in to continue where he left off, I'm going to go all Isa on this.  No maps, just liturgical puppets. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 15, 2013, 11:02:11 PM
No maps? That is a let down. Liturgical puppets makes up for that.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Nephi on November 16, 2013, 12:16:01 AM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 16, 2013, 12:21:23 AM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...

You volunteering? if not... To LBK!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 16, 2013, 01:51:53 AM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...
Na I am the moderator of this particular forum. It would still be on topic.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: LBK on November 16, 2013, 02:14:32 AM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...

.... shouldn't that be "Schlock Masses"?  ;)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: LBK on November 16, 2013, 02:15:42 AM
Mor Ephrem break out the pics and vids. Let's spice this thread up.

Maybe a "Schlock Liturgies" thread would be a good idea...

You volunteering? if not... To LBK!

Woo-hoo! But I'm afraid my forte is stills, not movies.  ;) :laugh:
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 16, 2013, 02:40:43 AM
LBK feel free to unleash some pics of schlock masses.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: LBK on November 16, 2013, 02:58:06 AM
LBK feel free to unleash some pics of schlock masses.

May I clarify: Stills as in "icons" and other "religious" art. Others will have to provide stuff on schlock masses.

I do have stills and audio from a couple of masses for confirmations and first communions I've attended which were ghastly in their pandering to modernity (canned "hymns" which make nursery rhymes sound like high literature, and bouncing ball projector screens, anyone?) and with a distinct lack of gravitas and reverence, but the schlockiness was more of the bland, insipid variety, not the howling outrages of clown and puppet masses.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 16, 2013, 03:19:46 AM
Projector screens? Can't people follow a hymnal these days.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on November 16, 2013, 03:26:08 AM
Projector screens? Can't people follow a hymnal these days.

Essential for karaoke masses...  :laugh:
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: LBK on November 16, 2013, 03:30:06 AM
Projector screens? Can't people follow a hymnal these days.

With "hymns" like those at these services, who'd want to follow them?  :P

I truly, deeply feel sorry for the older folks whose liturgical tradition has become so butchered and anodyne.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 16, 2013, 05:45:50 PM
It is a shame the RCC just didnt keep the 1962 roman missal and use the vernacular and do the dialogue version.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Altar Server on November 16, 2013, 11:42:28 PM
It is a shame the RCC just didnt keep the 1962 roman missal and use the vernacular and do the dialogue version.


I've asked myself this question for quite a while, but in all honesty I'm glad they didn't for if they had chances are I never would have found Orthodoxy. :)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 16, 2013, 11:47:17 PM
It is a shame the RCC just didnt keep the 1962 roman missal and use the vernacular and do the dialogue version.


I like the Novus Ordo when done right- due to its slight ambiguity, an Eastern-leaning priest might be able to make it more Eastern- for example, using a form of the Litany of Peace for the Prayers of the Faithful, with the deacon possibly taking the same position outside the altar rail or rood as the deacon in the DL for the petitions- assuming an Ad Orientem Mass of course. Also, giving the procession of the gifts a manner more similar to the Great Entrance of the DL St. John Chrystom.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: James2 on November 16, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 16, 2013, 11:55:59 PM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Altar Server on November 16, 2013, 11:57:45 PM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again :P
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 12:12:05 AM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again :P

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  :P Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 12:26:08 AM
I like the Novus Ordo when done right- due to its slight ambiguity, an Eastern-leaning priest might be able to make it more Eastern- for example, using a form of the Litany of Peace for the Prayers of the Faithful, with the deacon possibly taking the same position outside the altar rail or rood as the deacon in the DL for the petitions- assuming an Ad Orientem Mass of course. Also, giving the procession of the gifts a manner more similar to the Great Entrance of the DL St. John Chrystom.

LOL.  I wouldn't want the Roman rite to become Byzantinised or Syricised or whatever.  Let it be Roman.  There are enough authentic Western patterns for the prayer of the faithful to choose from if desired. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 01:01:32 AM
I like the Novus Ordo when done right- due to its slight ambiguity, an Eastern-leaning priest might be able to make it more Eastern- for example, using a form of the Litany of Peace for the Prayers of the Faithful, with the deacon possibly taking the same position outside the altar rail or rood as the deacon in the DL for the petitions- assuming an Ad Orientem Mass of course. Also, giving the procession of the gifts a manner more similar to the Great Entrance of the DL St. John Chrystom.

LOL.  I wouldn't want the Roman rite to become Byzantinised or Syricised or whatever.  Let it be Roman.  There are enough authentic Western patterns for the prayer of the faithful to choose from if desired. 

I'm a former Roman, and I don't give an omophor whether it's Roman or Syricised or whatever as long as it has the utmost reverence. If it takes some Byzantising, then so be it.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 01:18:27 AM
I'm a former Roman, and I don't give an omophor whether it's Roman or Syricised or whatever as long as it has the utmost reverence. If it takes some Byzantising, then so be it.

Nah.  If you take even the NO Mass, sing/celebrate it according to the rubrics, making use of the Mass propers, decent vestments, and other traditional touches, it needs no Eastern influence.  Actually, a sung Mass done properly is preferable to the typical Byzantine Liturgy, IMO...much more so if it is the old Mass.     

And if an "influence" is needed for more "reverence", there's no need for "Byzantine" influence when the older Roman liturgical tradition is available.  Moreover, other Eastern traditions, in their pure form, would be easier to adapt to the Roman rite than the Byzantine tradition would be.   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 01:20:11 AM
I'm a former Roman, and I don't give an omophor whether it's Roman or Syricised or whatever as long as it has the utmost reverence. If it takes some Byzantising, then so be it.

Nah.  If you take even the NO Mass, sing/celebrate it according to the rubrics, making use of the Mass propers, decent vestments, and other traditional touches, it needs no Eastern influence.  Actually, a sung Mass done properly is preferable to the typical Byzantine Liturgy, IMO...much more so if it is the old Mass.     

And if an "influence" is needed for more "reverence", there's no need for "Byzantine" influence when the older Roman liturgical tradition is available.  Moreover, other Eastern traditions, in their pure form, would be easier to adapt to the Roman rite than the Byzantine tradition would be.   

Considering I don't like the old form, thanks to the whole silent canon thing...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 09:47:39 AM
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 12:43:22 PM
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: mike on November 17, 2013, 12:48:53 PM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again :P

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  :P Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

The problem is Latins do not have 12 great feasts.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 01:03:51 PM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again :P

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  :P Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

The problem is Latins do not have 12 great feasts.

They have Solemnity of Mary, Epiphany, Candlemas, Annunciation, Palm Sunday, Pascha, Ascension, Pentecost, Assumption, Presentation of the Theotokos, All Saints, and Nativity. And really, that's all you pull out to comment on out of a long post?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 01:52:21 PM
[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
[/quote]
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 01:53:43 PM
Considering I don't like the old form, thanks to the whole silent canon thing...

I'm not a big fan of the silent canon either, but even with the silent canon, a sung Mass in the traditional Roman rite will always beat Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine rite (presuming similar circumstances, for example, standard parish Sunday service celebrated by one priest, choir, etc.).  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 02:24:28 PM
Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 02:45:34 PM
Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 03:03:02 PM
Mor Ephrem, youtube St Clements Anglo Catholic church then
Get back to me. Prepare to be floored.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 03:04:09 PM
Sorry to narrow it down st clement anglo Catholic iN philly pa
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Wandile on November 17, 2013, 03:07:05 PM
Reading this thread, one would get the idea that clown masses and such other crazy phenomena are present in every local  church .

As liturgically messed up as the western world Roman Rite Catholic church is... I really doubt that all the mentioned problems are even a significant minority.

Where I'm from, all this is a unheard of. The NO mass is celebrated decently at least at the average Roman Church.

May I ask you guys something? Is Orthodoxy free from liturgical abuse at local level? Does every priest celebrate the Divine liturgy without any deference from the rubrics?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Wandile on November 17, 2013, 03:12:38 PM
In all honesty.. The issue is not the Novus Ordo. The issue is the modern priests (God forgive me for speaking bad about your priests). Some of them just don't care...

Not much Rome can do about this except to try breed a new crop of priests who revere the mass and its significance. I think the Novus Ordo was a good thing for the church. The reason it was implemented was to return to a purer and simpler form of liturgy which would be truer to the liturgies celebrated by the 1st and second century Christians. Its sad how some have polluted and destroyed the beauty of the NO.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 03:25:08 PM
Huh? I have heard that excuse for every liberal agenda in both
The RCC and Orthodox churches...oh its how they did it back then.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 03:28:20 PM
 watched ten minutes of the mass from the local rcc cathedral today.
All the reforms, adding girl altarboys, etc.. and ten peopLe were in the pews.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Wandile on November 17, 2013, 03:37:20 PM
Huh? I have heard that excuse for every liberal agenda in both
The RCC and Orthodox churches...oh its how they did it back then.


except for the fact that the early liturgy did not look like Tridentine mass or a byzantine divine liturgy (as taught in the rubrics). The closest liturgy would be the NO (Done by the book) to be honest. So no its not an excuse if its true.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Wandile on November 17, 2013, 03:41:30 PM
watched ten minutes of the mass from the local rcc cathedral today.
All the reforms, adding girl altarboys, etc.. and ten peopLe were in the pews.

I have no problem with girl altar serves. What's the problem with that? I was an alter boy and served alongside girls. The mass was not affected by this as my priest does the mass quite well.

At the end of the Day if the NO can be done beautifully then clearly its is not the NO but the person who celebrates it that is the problem.

oh and what was the significance of mentioning the number of people in the pews?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 04:22:39 PM
[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.
[/quote]
The nearest Orthodox parish is just as far away, and as I've said, I'm not Orthodox nor likely going to be.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 04:24:04 PM
In all honesty.. The issue is not the Novus Ordo. The issue is the modern priests (God forgive me for speaking bad about your priests). Some of them just don't care...

Not much Rome can do about this except to try breed a new crop of priests who revere the mass and its significance. I think the Novus Ordo was a good thing for the church. The reason it was implemented was to return to a purer and simpler form of liturgy which would be truer to the liturgies celebrated by the 1st and second century Christians. Its sad how some have polluted and destroyed the beauty of the NO.

Fortunately, the new breed of priests (including myself, God willing I get through seminary) are all traditional and hard-line orthodox, from what I've seen- especially my fellow seminarians.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 04:26:39 PM
Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 05:34:46 PM
So are you in seminary for the latins?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: mike on November 17, 2013, 05:53:05 PM
Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?

Mor is not EO.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: LBK on November 17, 2013, 06:13:09 PM
May I ask you guys something? Is Orthodoxy free from liturgical abuse at local level? Does every priest celebrate the Divine liturgy without any deference from the rubrics?

In my fifty years in the Orthodox Church, in three countries and several jurisdictions, liturgical practice is nothing short of absolute in its consistency. No irreverence, no individualistic "innovations", be it in praxis or in hymnographic content.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on November 17, 2013, 06:44:04 PM
The reason it was implemented was to return to a purer and simpler form of liturgy which would be truer to the liturgies celebrated by the 1st and second century Christians.
Not really, no. One would hope not, considering that Pope Pius XII specifically condemned liturgical antiquarianism in Mediator Dei: “Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation."
The NO liturgy only superficially resembles the early liturgy: Eucharistic Prayer II is a heavily edited version of an anaphora which may well not actually have been used as such, and the practice of three readings doesn't appear to be traditional in the Roman Rite, to name a couple of examples. Yes, the liturgy is simpler, as the liturgy of the early Christians probably was. So what? They still bought whatever vestments they could, pooled money for episcopal thrones, used the biggest house they could manage, and as Acts (2:46) attests, went to the Temple regularly to see a liturgy which was very, very unlike the NO. Lutheran liturgies are often very simple as well, and I think the greater resemblance lies there.
The purpose of the changes were to accommodate the liturgy to the modern day. Just like the whole rest of Vatican II. Remember the whole thing about "throwing open the windows of the church"? The reformers used the canard of a return to the early Church to justify making the liturgy as modern as possible.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 17, 2013, 06:46:57 PM
Proove the current missal is how they did it in some generalized
Time period in the early days.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 08:23:11 PM
Sorry to narrow it down st clement anglo Catholic iN philly pa

Do you have any particular video you would like me to see?  I'm familiar with this church.  :)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 08:28:08 PM
So are you in seminary for the latins?

Yes- at least once I actually go in the next fall term, Minor Seminary at least. The Byzantine one for my jurisdiction, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, is in Pittsburgh, so...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 08:29:06 PM
And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?

I only compared Byzantine to traditional Roman.  I think the Syriac Liturgy is better than both of these.  In order of liturgical preference (differences in faith or communion being, for this purpose, ignored), rites I've worshiped in or attended:  

West Syriac
Traditional Roman
Armenian
Byzantine
Coptic/East Syriac (tie)
~
Ethiopian (I've never been, so I don't know where I'd rank it)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 17, 2013, 08:29:49 PM
Wouldn't that be the western rite?, holy God added and an epeclesis, hopefully silent

Nope.  In a liturgical deathmatch between standard EO parish Liturgy and standard traditional RC parish High Mass, High Mass wins every time.  No Trisagion, epiclesis, etc. required. 

And I say EO Liturgy... which is strange. I'm the cradle Latin turned Eastern Catholic that mostly attends NO mass, and you're Orthodox. Shouldn't our liturgical opinions be reversed here?

Mor is not EO.

I'm aware; but OO and EO liturgies are similar enough from a Latin-trained perspective, excepting length, copious use of Coptic cymbals and triangles, and strange hats.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 17, 2013, 08:32:55 PM
except for the fact that the early liturgy did not look like Tridentine mass or a byzantine divine liturgy (as taught in the rubrics). The closest liturgy would be the NO (Done by the book) to be honest. So no its not an excuse if its true.

Have you studied early liturgy?  I have, and your claim re: the NO makes no sense unless, perhaps, you are restricting the meaning of "the early liturgy" to the Eucharistic rite of the Church of Rome.   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Altar Server on November 18, 2013, 12:16:24 AM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again :P

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  :P Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

Lets found a Parish together shall we? :)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 18, 2013, 12:27:15 AM
In the late 70's I came across a book of experimental RC liturgies in a library.  I remember one of the minor propers for a Marian feast going something like this:  "We honor Mary, because her Son turned out so well."  A bit of an understatement.

Unless it's an experimental liturgy combination of the Tridentine Mass, SJC Divine Liturgy and Sarum Use Mass, I don't want to hear about it. Oh Lord, what I would give to get at least a chancel BEAM across the sanctuary above the altar rail, much less a whole rood screen.
what I would give to see an altar rail again :P

Your liturgical standards must be lower than mine.  :P Oh, I can envision it now- altar rail across the sanctuary, with three gates- one center, two on the side- each one with a raised arch. The central gate having statues of Christ and Mary, Right and Left, on either sider- or a Divine Mercy and Perpetual Help/Lady of Guadalupe icon. The altar draped in a full-length frontal before the tabernacle's shelf on an old high altar, bearing two candles and a crucifix. Above the altar rail runs a long beam, supported by posts flanking each of the three arches, with a large rood cross above the main gate. Behind the tavernacle's shelf is a magnificent rereredos, completely of wood and adorned with icons of all the 12 major feasts, with the icons of the angels and saints all along the walls of the sanctuary, except above the rereredos where light streams in through a tained glass window of Christ Pantokrator. Along the nave are icons and statues of the saints, the parish's patron saint and Our Lady having a shrine of their own against the wall, or even in a side chapel. Instead of pews all the way to the altar rail step, they stop some 15 feet beforehand, leaving room for choir stalls facing vertically across the nave, and providing a place for the choir and clergy that is not hidden in a loft or in the sanctuary itself. A wonderful, surpliced choir that chants Gregorian chant and Anglican Chant and traditional hymns and Te Deums and Solemn Vespers and Solemn Lauds every Sunday! And clergy, not in polyester abominations of liturgical fashion, but semigothic vestments of dignity and class, including maniples and amices! Oh, the dreams of a Traditionalist!!!!!!!!!!

Lets found a Parish together shall we? :)

Indeed, let us!  ;D
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 03:31:42 AM
I know exactly where Sts Cyril.snd Methodios is in da burgh.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Luka on November 18, 2013, 02:22:23 PM
Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake ;) ).
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 18, 2013, 03:26:07 PM
I will say this much about Latin priests however- at least locally, they truly respect the sacred species, especially the priest of the roman parish I currently attend. For someone whose never said a TLM in his life, Fr. Howard is the most careful, meticulous priest I have ever met when handling the Holy Mysteries. He knows exactly Who he's holding, and treats Him accordingly. Thumb and forefinger together, carefully purifies the vessels, uses a pall, and immediately holds his fingers over the chalice after the elevation of the Host to avoid any particle falling to the ground.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 18, 2013, 03:28:50 PM
I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity.

You mean Byzantine liturgy doesn't look like a spectacle?

(http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/files/2009/02/kirill-crowning.jpg)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: mike on November 18, 2013, 03:30:49 PM
May I ask you guys something? Is Orthodoxy free from liturgical abuse at local level? Does every priest celebrate the Divine liturgy without any deference from the rubrics?

No but in vast majority of cases they are not even close to what you guys do.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on November 18, 2013, 03:47:02 PM
Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake ;) ).
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite. However, largely as a result of the negotiations between Rome and the SSPX, the reformed Mass of 1962 has become the accepted version of the Traditional Mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 18, 2013, 04:09:05 PM
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite.

Yet another instance of Orthodox being what Catholics used to be. Hope I don't sound like triumphalistic but I feel genuinely sorry for you people.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 18, 2013, 04:36:19 PM
Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake ;) ).

Luka,

I haven't really thought this out systematically, so take these with a grain of salt.  

Before anything else, I'm glad I don't have to explain the appeal of propers.  :)

Honestly, I feel that the traditional Roman Liturgy flows better than the Byzantine Liturgy.  I've worshiped with EO for years, am comfortable with the Liturgy in various languages, etc., but the Byzantine Liturgy seems, to me, like a bunch of "parts" put together haphazardly so that there is some semblance of "order" and "purpose", but you have to know what to look for.  Based on the history of its development, I don't think that is an inaccurate assessment, even if it is very incomplete.  In comparison, I think the Roman Liturgy clearly has an apparent "order" and "purpose", and flows seamlessly from one thing to the next.    

Let's take the Liturgy of the Catechumens, since you brought it up.  The Byzantine version is longer only for two reasons, IMO:

1) the Liturgy of the Catechumens includes everything from "Blessed is the Kingdom" to the Little Entrance, and
2) has not omitted the intercessions

Re: #1, the real "start" of the Liturgy is the Little Entrance, with its entrance chant ("Invitatory", if you will), processional chants roughly analogous to the Introit (e.g., apolytikia and Trisagion..."Only-Begotten Son" was also one of these at one point), and fairly quick progression into the readings.  Seen in this way, the Byzantine Liturgy of Catechumens is roughly the same length as the Roman Liturgy of Catechumens.  They have less sung material, but the settings are more complicated, while the East has more sung material but can be sung simply and more quickly than a Gradual.  If you factor in all the material I included in #1, the Byzantine will definitely be longer.  

Re: #2, the Roman Liturgy has dropped the prayers for the faithful offered after the Gospel (even while retaining the Dominus vobiscum-Oremus), while it has been preserved in that very place in the Byzantine Liturgy (among other places).  ISTM the Kyrie is also the remnant of some litany-like structure, even if it has become a penitential prayer in the popular imagination.  

So I don't think the Byzantine Liturgy is "longer" in this regard, as long as we're comparing the right sorts of things.  Also, it depends on how "completely" or "incompletely" certain things are done.  Roman Liturgy doesn't have that much flexibility.  

I think the traditional Roman Liturgy can be served with too much "spectacle" (sometimes it looks like a military drill and not worship), but as Alpo has alluded, I think this can equally be said of the Byzantine Liturgy in some regions.  This is especially true if we compare Pontifical Mass with Hierarchical Liturgy: Byzantine Liturgy is almost completely theatrical with the bishop being the star of the show, while the Roman Mass has managed to find a balance between a) performing the ceremonies emphasising the role of bishops which are natural to this form of Mass and b) allowing the bishop to eventually disappear enough to allow the worship of God.      

Regarding choirs, perhaps it is different where you live.  With very few exceptions, most EO parish Liturgies I've attended involve either a few chanters or a choir singing everything while the rest of "the people" are mute spectators.  It's really no different from the average traditional Latin Mass parish.  In both cases, when people want to sing, they'll sing loud and proud.  

I don't know if any of that made sense to you, I think it's rather haphazard myself, but I just responded to your observations (I suppose I could go on if you pushed me in a particular direction, but this is all I've got for now).  I don't think the Roman Liturgy is without its own issues, I think there are things I'd change or adapt, but overall, I think it "works" better than the Byzantine Liturgy.  I still think Syriac Liturgy trumps both, because it seems to have found a way to embrace the best aspects of both without necessarily having been influenced in this way by either.  
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 18, 2013, 04:37:40 PM
Yet another instance of Orthodox being what Catholics used to be. Hope I don't sound like triumphalistic but I feel genuinely sorry for you people.

That sword cuts both ways, though (see, for example, my reference to mute spectators above). 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 18, 2013, 04:44:44 PM
I don't know any instances about Catholics being what Orthodox used to be. Are there any?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 04:52:44 PM
An EO liturgy that has a choir and the rest of the faithful as
Spectators is much like the tridentine mass experience.
In the latin mass you have people saying rosary during mass. In a russian style choir only liturgy you have people lighting candles while liturgy us going on.
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on November 18, 2013, 05:03:32 PM
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 18, 2013, 05:04:00 PM
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Znamemny?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Yurysprudentsiya on November 18, 2013, 05:11:33 PM
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Znamemny?

Where does Kyivan chant fall in this spectrum?    That's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of singing.  We use it for our tones and use a lot of Bortniansky, some Rimsky-Korsakov, and others for the rest.   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Luka on November 18, 2013, 06:25:40 PM
I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity.

You mean Byzantine liturgy doesn't look like a spectacle?

(http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/files/2009/02/kirill-crowning.jpg)
No, it does not, and I'm speaking about a normal liturgy in a parish, not cathedral.

Mor Ephrem, thank you for your response. Now I have to think this through :)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: theistgal on November 18, 2013, 08:39:22 PM
Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake ;) ).
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite. However, largely as a result of the negotiations between Rome and the SSPX, the reformed Mass of 1962 has become the accepted version of the Traditional Mass.

That reminds me of something funny that happened to me the first time I went to one of the Tridentine Masses here in Southern California - about 10 years ago.

I happily sang along with all the Gregorian Chant responses throughout the Mass and was really enjoying myself. But after the Mass, this sour-looking lady who was apparently in charge of the choir came over and gave me a big lecture about how only the choir is supposed to sing the responses - the congregation is supposed to remain completely silent!

Well, I thought then - and still think now - that she was wrong. (And reading Thomas Day's classic "Why Catholics Can't Sing" only confirmed me in my righteousness.  ;D ) But I bided my time and got my revenge - I'm now married to the head cantor at my Eastern Catholic parish, where we go out of our way to encourage everyone in the congregation to join in!  8)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 09:21:51 PM
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Galacian and prostopinije are plainchants sang by everyone with a cantor lrading.the entire congregation. Kyvian is choir chant.  The uoc usa put out a book some time ago that has all the galacian chant.
Znamemny?

Where does Kyivan chant fall in this spectrum?    That's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of singing.  We use it for our tones and use a lot of Bortniansky, some Rimsky-Korsakov, and others for the rest.   
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 09:24:20 PM
Here is a link to a site that teaches.you galacian congregational chanthttp://www.albertacantors.ca
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: mike on November 18, 2013, 09:28:32 PM
I prefer the galacian or prostopinije because the faithful raise the roof and everyone is participating.

+1 (I don't know the other style of music.)
Znamemny?

Where does Kyivan chant fall in this spectrum?    That's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of singing.  We use it for our tones and use a lot of Bortniansky, some Rimsky-Korsakov, and others for the rest.   

They both should be banned.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 09:29:45 PM
Which two should be banned?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: mike on November 18, 2013, 09:30:23 PM
Bortnyansky and Korsakoff.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Regnare on November 18, 2013, 09:33:01 PM
No, it does not, and I'm speaking about a normal liturgy in a parish, not cathedral.
What is it about the Roman liturgy, in your opinion, that makes it look more like a spectacle than a liturgy, as distinct from the Byzantine?
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Deacon Lance on November 18, 2013, 09:36:14 PM
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite

You are unaware then that their are Eastern/Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Catholic traditions where there are no choirs only the people singing the responses.  In fact choirs doing all the responses are a late import into the Byzantine liturical tradition.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Deacon Lance on November 18, 2013, 09:50:50 PM
I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity.
It can be stiff and overly choreographed but I find this in Russian Liturgy as well.

For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake ;) ).

Choirs aren't mandatory, nor are they traditional.  Get yourself to a Carpatho-Rusyn or Old Rite Liturgy to see People with a strong voice and no choir.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 18, 2013, 10:16:33 PM
[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.
[/quote]

Prostopenije/Rusyn chant at Christ the Savior Carpathian Russian Orthodox Cathedral, Johnstown, PA. Hierarchical Liturgy - XXII Diocesan Sobor, October 2013. Galician chant is similar.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4lmuzQlmrI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DW4lmuzQlmrI
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 18, 2013, 11:15:13 PM
[quote or=brastaseptim link=topT255.msg1027424#msg1027424 date=1384706602]
Brastaseptim, the ruthemians revised and recreated their
Liturgy about 7 yrs ago. It was better before.  Also J. Michael Thompson
Rewrote the prostopinije.  It was better before. So none of that is even traditional. Even the 1962 roman missal had minor revisions. You should try out an ACROD parish

If I could get to a Ruthenian church (my own jurisdiction), or even an ACROD, parish every Sunday, do you really think I'd be here talking about the Roman Mass?
Go to the closest Orthodox parish.

Prostopenije/Rusyn chant at Christ the Savior Carpathian Russian Orthodox Cathedral, Johnstown, PA. Hierarchical Liturgy - XXII Diocesan Sobor, October 2013. Galician chant is similar.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4lmuzQlmrI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DW4lmuzQlmrI
[/quote]
Now that's a hierarchical Liturgy...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 11:41:50 PM
I gave a link for galacian. It's not really similar. To prostopinije. We use both in services. The two are what I know.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 11:44:12 PM
Search alberta benevolent cantor society. That's the galacian chant page.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 18, 2013, 11:48:33 PM
I gave a link for galacian. It's not really similar. To prostopinije. We use both in services. The two are what I know.

Sorry, I did not mean musically similar, but rather in terms of the spirit and congregational participation. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 18, 2013, 11:57:56 PM
Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 19, 2013, 12:05:54 AM
Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate

But I don't have opposing views either- all I did was quote and say "Now that's a hierarchical liturgy."
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 19, 2013, 12:14:14 AM
Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate

But I don't have opposing views either- all I did was quote and say "Now that's a hierarchical liturgy."
You said galacian and prostopinije were almost the same, that's all.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 19, 2013, 12:53:18 AM
Podkarpska, was referring to brataseptim not you. Me and you never have opposing views, moi brate

But I don't have opposing views either- all I did was quote and say "Now that's a hierarchical liturgy."
You said galacian and prostopinije were almost the same, that's all.

Actually that was Podkarpatska.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 19, 2013, 01:27:47 AM
No, it does not, and I'm speaking about a normal liturgy in a parish, not cathedral.

I've never attended a Polish liturgy but Finnish liturgies most certainly are spectacles. Much more than the missa cantata I attended few weeks back.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Yurysprudentsiya on November 19, 2013, 07:47:56 AM
Bortnyansky and Korsakoff.

 ???  Bortniansky's Cherubimic Hymn, No. 7, I think, is quite heavenly.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: mike on November 19, 2013, 10:13:36 AM
Bortnyansky and Korsakoff.

 ???  Bortniansky's Cherubimic Hymn, No. 7, I think, is quite heavenly.

If someone likes operas...
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 19, 2013, 11:07:44 AM
Gotta disagree with MK on Dimitry Bortiansky.

To any kid growing up in from 1930's to the 1980's America in a "Russian", Ukrainian, Orthodox or Greek Catholic church-going family, just play a recording of "Kol Slaven" and good memories rush in...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Q7UjsZ8yPiI


Same goes for Cherubic #7- the every Sunday staple of many a small choir...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GDCwdreKpXI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGDCwdreKpXI
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Schultz on November 19, 2013, 11:23:33 AM
Mor Ephrem, could you tell what you find so beautiful in the Traditional Roman Liturgy? I love the whole "propers" thing in the Roman liturgy, but its action seem to me more like a spectacle than a liturgy and it's a great pity. For me it lacks also an obligatory choir, as in EO, giving the People a strong voice. And comparing with EO it seems to have very short Liturgy of the Catechumens. But I'm open to be convinced (for the "propers" sake ;) ).
Before the advent of the "Dialogue Mass" in the 50s, the choir did all the responses and everything, just like in the Byzantine Rite. However, largely as a result of the negotiations between Rome and the SSPX, the reformed Mass of 1962 has become the accepted version of the Traditional Mass.

That reminds me of something funny that happened to me the first time I went to one of the Tridentine Masses here in Southern California - about 10 years ago.

I happily sang along with all the Gregorian Chant responses throughout the Mass and was really enjoying myself. But after the Mass, this sour-looking lady who was apparently in charge of the choir came over and gave me a big lecture about how only the choir is supposed to sing the responses - the congregation is supposed to remain completely silent!

Well, I thought then - and still think now - that she was wrong. (And reading Thomas Day's classic "Why Catholics Can't Sing" only confirmed me in my righteousness.  ;D ) But I bided my time and got my revenge - I'm now married to the head cantor at my Eastern Catholic parish, where we go out of our way to encourage everyone in the congregation to join in!  8)

I recall a Tridentine Mass I went to some years ago in Baltimore.  There was this family that came all the way down from York that looked like they were loads of fun.  I have never seen a more dour looking family.  At any rate, I usually sat four or five pews behind them.  One Sunday, a young man sat in between us and sang along with the choir with great reverence and, honestly, with a rather nice tenor.  About halfway through the Creed, the father turned around and asked him to please be quiet, his family was trying to pray.

Keep in mind, this guy was harmonizing beautifully with the choir.

He moved back a few pews to sit next to me and asked if I would be offended if he sang along.  I told him no and joined in when I could; it was nice to have a single voice to follow along with in my own vocal range.

For our participation, I received dirty looks from that family (and only that family) for the rest of my tenure there.

Then I re-discovered the Ruthenian Catholic church and fell in love with prostopinije.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 19, 2013, 01:21:11 PM
When my brother lived in pittsburgh when I was catholic we'd go to the tlm. People sang responses here and there. I happened to be in Baltimore for something years ago went to the tlm. No one sang anything except for the choir. It felt odd.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on November 19, 2013, 01:23:47 PM
Gotta disagree with MK on Dimitry Bortiansky.

To any kid growing up in from 1930's to the 1980's America in a "Russian", Ukrainian, Orthodox or Greek Catholic church-going family, just play a recording of "Kol Slaven" and good memories rush in...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Q7UjsZ8yPiI


Same goes for Cherubic #7- the every Sunday staple of many a small choir...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GDCwdreKpXI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGDCwdreKpXI

Add Finns to that list. I've heard that Cherubic hymn occasionally in our churches.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: brastaseptim on November 19, 2013, 01:24:38 PM
Latin parish I attend, nobody sings anything but the choir- which is composed of myself, the cantor, and sometimes his wife. Sometimes just me, the backup cantor. I've sung the whole Mass with no one else joining in for even one note before. And I can tell, because my voice isn't overpowering enough to drown out the other's voices- I'm a light tenor, not a dang operatic baritone. (Oh, I'd never make it in a Russian choir...)
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: podkarpatska on November 19, 2013, 01:56:10 PM
Gotta disagree with MK on Dimitry Bortiansky.

To any kid growing up in from 1930's to the 1980's America in a "Russian", Ukrainian, Orthodox or Greek Catholic church-going family, just play a recording of "Kol Slaven" and good memories rush in...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Q7UjsZ8yPiI


Same goes for Cherubic #7- the every Sunday staple of many a small choir...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GDCwdreKpXI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGDCwdreKpXI



The Kol Slaven link earlier was android dedicated. Here is the desktop version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7UjsZ8yPiI
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: username! on November 19, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
Ah klo slaven..
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 19, 2013, 03:31:12 PM
I guess there are no theatres in Vienna? (http://youtu.be/Ki-HuVqWFeU)

Solidarity, RC's...this is nuts. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Romaios on December 19, 2013, 03:42:54 PM
I guess there are no theatres in Vienna? (http://youtu.be/Ki-HuVqWFeU)

Solidarity, RC's...this is nuts. 

A shande fir di goyim!  >:(
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: griego catolico on December 30, 2013, 08:00:27 PM
I would also appreciate if you could maybe give some examples of what you would consider a "proper" mass.

How about this?:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ish5zre-SRA

A Mass in the Ordinary Form (Mass of Paul VI) celebrated as if it were the Extraordinary Form (Mass of Blessed John XXIII).
Technically, the priest celebrant is not following all the rubrics (e.g., the priest should be at the chair for the beginning of Mass), but it is quite reverent and demonstrates what "could have been" if there was more of a  "hermeneutic of continuity".

Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Alpo on January 02, 2014, 02:36:53 PM
Could have been but never will be. The hermeneutics of continuity died at the moment when pope Benedict XVI proclaimed his retirement.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: Mor Ephrem on March 11, 2014, 03:39:46 PM
Friends,

This (http://marcsalvatore.smugmug.com/Pontifical-High-Mass-in-the/) is how you do Liturgy.  This is easily the equal, if not the superior, of Byzantine rite hierarchical Liturgy.  And if you disagree, see my sig. 
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on March 11, 2014, 07:14:46 PM
Friends,

This (http://marcsalvatore.smugmug.com/Pontifical-High-Mass-in-the/) is how you do Liturgy.  This is easily the equal, if not the superior, of Byzantine rite hierarchical Liturgy.  And if you disagree, see my sig. 

Better than the bland Novus Ordo. How much were instruments played during the High Mass? The instruments drowned out all of the singing when I attended a NO Mass.
Title: Re: The mass of Paul VI
Post by: ErmyCath on March 12, 2014, 11:53:20 AM
I would also appreciate if you could maybe give some examples of what you would consider a "proper" mass.

How about this?:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ish5zre-SRA

A Mass in the Ordinary Form (Mass of Paul VI) celebrated as if it were the Extraordinary Form (Mass of Blessed John XXIII).
Technically, the priest celebrant is not following all the rubrics (e.g., the priest should be at the chair for the beginning of Mass), but it is quite reverent and demonstrates what "could have been" if there was more of a  "hermeneutic of continuity".



The parish in the video is my former parish. (I think I'm in that video as a server).