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Moderated Forums => Liturgy => Western Rite Discussion => Topic started by: Sleeper on July 13, 2013, 08:09:46 AM

Title: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Sleeper on July 13, 2013, 08:09:46 AM
A sad day if this is true:

http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130712_ensynodmeeting.html
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Tony on July 13, 2013, 08:12:46 AM
Looks like it
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: WPM on July 13, 2013, 08:21:49 AM
It still exists in the Antiochian Archdiocese.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Sleeper on July 13, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
It still exists in the Antiochian Archdiocese.

Indeed. And may it always!
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 03:53:38 PM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Sleeper on July 13, 2013, 05:00:15 PM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that until after I created this thread. I hope that's the case and that this is more of a house cleaning, so to speak.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Maria on July 13, 2013, 05:03:10 PM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that until after I created this thread. I hope that's the case and that this is more of a house cleaning, so to speak.

It has been a long overdo house cleaning. Bishop Jerome really needed to be put in his place.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: ilyazhito on July 13, 2013, 07:32:48 PM
What did Bishop Jerome do that angered the Synod? I heard that he might have ordained hastily, but what exactly was his fault?
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Sleeper on July 13, 2013, 10:00:43 PM
What did Bishop Jerome do that angered the Synod? I heard that he might have ordained hastily, but what exactly was his fault?

He violated church canons by ordaining several men during a single liturgy. That, to my knowledge, was the largest issue. The over-eagerness to ordain so many priests without existing parishes seems to be another.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Santagranddad on July 13, 2013, 10:29:22 PM
What did Bishop Jerome do that angered the Synod? I heard that he might have ordained hastily, but what exactly was his fault?

He violated church canons by ordaining several men during a single liturgy. That, to my knowledge, was the largest issue. The over-eagerness to ordain so many priests without existing parishes seems to be another.

In the Orthodox Church only one person at a time is ordained to a priestly rank. Bishop Jerome knew this and disregarded it. What else did he disregard and why?
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 13, 2013, 11:00:01 PM
He violated church canons by ordaining several men during a single liturgy. That, to my knowledge, was the largest issue.

AFAIK, the only tradition that has such a canon is the Byzantine tradition, and it's a later canon.  Every other tradition routinely and for centuries has ordained multiple men to the same rank in the same Liturgy.  Should Bp Jerome be held responsible for violating a canon that ostensibly doesn't apply to the WR? 

And if so, why not the Antiochians?  Not that it is ROCOR's responsibility to be an enforcer for anyone but themselves, but the Antiochians have performed such ordinations (Byzantine tradition) with no incident.     

Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: biro on July 13, 2013, 11:21:26 PM
I didn't know it wasn't allowed to ordain more than one person at once. Hmmm.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: arimethea on July 13, 2013, 11:26:36 PM
What did Bishop Jerome do that angered the Synod? I heard that he might have ordained hastily, but what exactly was his fault?

He violated church canons by ordaining several men during a single liturgy. That, to my knowledge, was the largest issue. The over-eagerness to ordain so many priests without existing parishes seems to be another.

Can you please cite the canon(s) he violated by ordaining multiple people to the same order in the same liturgy?
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Father H on July 13, 2013, 11:28:25 PM
He violated church canons by ordaining several men during a single liturgy. That, to my knowledge, was the largest issue.

AFAIK, the only tradition that has such a canon is the Byzantine tradition, and it's a later canon.  Every other tradition routinely and for centuries has ordained multiple men to the same rank in the same Liturgy.  Should Bp Jerome be held responsible for violating a canon that ostensibly doesn't apply to the WR? 

And if so, why not the Antiochians?  Not that it is ROCOR's responsibility to be an enforcer for anyone but themselves, but the Antiochians have performed such ordinations (Byzantine tradition) with no incident.     



There is no canon forbidding it.  However, most local ordinances do prescribe one of each rank per day per bishop.  ROCOR's local ordinances forbid it, and Bishop Jerome transgressed this without discussing it with the Synod.  Not good.  
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: ICXCNIKA on July 13, 2013, 11:53:57 PM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that until after I created this thread. I hope that's the case and that this is more of a house cleaning, so to speak.

It has been a long overdo house cleaning. Bishop Jerome really needed to be put in his place.

And this is how to put a Vicar Bishop in his place? I would imagine that a simple phone call from his Metropolitan would have been enough to clarify what his instructions/limits are. Why is there a need to call an emergency council and forcibly retire him?
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: LBK on July 14, 2013, 06:03:58 AM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that until after I created this thread. I hope that's the case and that this is more of a house cleaning, so to speak.

It has been a long overdo house cleaning. Bishop Jerome really needed to be put in his place.

And this is how to put a Vicar Bishop in his place? I would imagine that a simple phone call from his Metropolitan would have been enough to clarify what his instructions/limits are. Why is there a need to call an emergency council and forcibly retire him?

Perhaps this wasn't his only transgression, and he hadn't paid any mind to previous admonishments.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: ICXCNIKA on July 14, 2013, 12:31:11 PM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that until after I created this thread. I hope that's the case and that this is more of a house cleaning, so to speak.

It has been a long overdo house cleaning. Bishop Jerome really needed to be put in his place.

And this is how to put a Vicar Bishop in his place? I would imagine that a simple phone call from his Metropolitan would have been enough to clarify what his instructions/limits are. Why is there a need to call an emergency council and forcibly retire him?

Perhaps this wasn't his only transgression, and he hadn't paid any mind to previous admonishments.
Possible but I am not sure what transgression occurred. I am not a member of ROCOR and am not trying to pass judgement on them. i like most people are just trying to understand what is going on and what the decree actually means. I have watched as members of clergy have been going at it online arguing as to what this all means. It is not good... I will believe those clergy in RWRV that state there is nothing changing other than Bishop Jerome and Monk Anthony are no longer assistants to the Metropolitan and that they will be doing a better job vetting those allowed to join as clergy.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Father H on July 14, 2013, 05:32:20 PM
Another thread has a more in-depth discussion which seems to question the idea that the Holy Synod killed its WR.

Thanks, I hadn't noticed that until after I created this thread. I hope that's the case and that this is more of a house cleaning, so to speak.

It has been a long overdo house cleaning. Bishop Jerome really needed to be put in his place.

And this is how to put a Vicar Bishop in his place? I would imagine that a simple phone call from his Metropolitan would have been enough to clarify what his instructions/limits are. Why is there a need to call an emergency council and forcibly retire him?

From what I understand the main problem was Bishop Jerome writing public letters to others against Bishop Peter and making a public spectacle and even creating a bit of scandal.  I think the ordinations per se were not what caused the forced retirement.   
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 14, 2013, 05:53:51 PM
AFAIK, the only tradition that has such a canon is the Byzantine tradition, and it's a later canon.  Every other tradition routinely and for centuries has ordained multiple men to the same rank in the same Liturgy.  Should Bp Jerome be held responsible for violating a canon that ostensibly doesn't apply to the WR? 

Having permission to celebrate the Divine Liturgy and other services according to a particular liturgical tradition does not mean you have permission to follow a different set of administrative rules than those prescribed by your Holy Synod.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2013, 06:02:45 PM
Sure, I get that as a general principle.  But it seems strange to me to prohibit something normal in the Western Rite based on a specifically Byzantine, non-canonical (as in there is no canon referring to it) custom. 
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 14, 2013, 06:05:27 PM
There is no canon forbidding it.  However, most local ordinances do prescribe one of each rank per day per bishop.  ROCOR's local ordinances forbid it, and Bishop Jerome transgressed this without discussing it with the Synod.  Not good.  

Interesting, Father, thanks.  I could never locate a canon to this effect myself, but people I've discussed this with all seemed to think there was one, so I just presumed I didn't look carefully. 

Where/when did this custom originate? 
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: podkarpatska on July 14, 2013, 07:06:01 PM
Sure, I get that as a general principle.  But it seems strange to me to prohibit something normal in the Western Rite based on a specifically Byzantine, non-canonical (as in there is no canon referring to it) custom. 

Some of us, who as a condition of our "unfortunate" backgrounds, are unusually "sensitive" to such matters,  and would thus identify this as as an example of "reverse uniatism." You know, if it looks and smells like a rose......
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: age234 on August 01, 2013, 04:54:14 PM
Two weeks on, how are things going in the Western Rite?

I saw that Metr. Hilarion issued a letter that basically says the WR parishes are under his direct jurisdiction now, but I didn't see any indication that he is shutting down the WR.

I recently talked to a priest who is involved with the WR, and I got the sense that there could be schism brewing. I hope it doesn't come to that.
Title: Re: ROCOR Western Rite dead? It appears so...
Post by: Nephi on August 01, 2013, 06:50:17 PM
I recently talked to a priest who is involved with the WR, and I got the sense that there could be schism brewing. I hope it doesn't come to that.

The impression that he (or others) was contemplating schism from Orthodoxy entirely, or just jumping the jurisdictional ship?