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General Forums => Christian News => Topic started by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 07:09:38 PM

Title: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 07:09:38 PM
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2013/20130712_ensynodmeeting.html (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2013/20130712_ensynodmeeting.html)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 12, 2013, 07:16:43 PM
So that just leaves the Antiochians and various schismatic/vagante groups.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ICXCNIKA on July 12, 2013, 07:24:52 PM
I have to admit that I am shocked by this. I am not familiar with the charges leveled against Bishop Jerome but even if he did something wrong why should the entire Western Rite of ROCOR be dismantled? Very sad.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 07:49:56 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 12, 2013, 07:54:15 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.

I haven't kept up at all on what goes on in ROCOR, but during the Monk thread there was a link to a yahoo discussion, and in that discussion there seemed to be talk about recent problems in the WR with priests switching to the plain jane rite and whatnot.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 12, 2013, 07:56:32 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 12, 2013, 07:58:30 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

Does that mean it affects the majority of the WR or only a small portion of it? How do they compare in size?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: WPM on July 12, 2013, 08:01:59 PM
What does this actually mean? ...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheMathematician on July 12, 2013, 08:02:58 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

I hope this is the case, but it looks(to me, at least), that it wont be the case, because of this

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 

"

I hope however, that I am wrong.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: WPM on July 12, 2013, 08:10:14 PM
If they shut down the Western Rite then I guess I would have to adapt either Greek Orthodox or go to an OCA parish.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Maria on July 12, 2013, 08:10:52 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Maria on July 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM
If they shut down the Western Rite then I guess I would have to adapt either Greek Orthodox or go to an OCA parish.

Wesley,
It might be best if you did go to a local OCA or Greek Orthodox parish.
In this way, you would be able to attend services more frequently.

However, this is off topic and should be the topic of a new thread.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheMathematician on July 12, 2013, 08:13:10 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?

I'm guessing here, because, I dont know, but

Take Christminster for example. I *think* what it means is, they can keep their Benedictine spirituality, but, use the Eastern Rite services.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 08:14:02 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 12, 2013, 08:15:18 PM
This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?

I assume it is deliberately vague so that they can work out the best solution for each community on a case by case basis. Perhaps it is to allow for a transitional period.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: WPM on July 12, 2013, 08:19:22 PM
If they shut down the Western Rite then I guess I would have to adapt either Greek Orthodox or go to an OCA parish.

Wesley,
It might be best if you did go to a local OCA or Greek Orthodox parish.
In this way, you would be able to attend services more frequently.

However, this is off topic and should be the topic of a new thread.

Hey, I'll do the work.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shlomlokh on July 12, 2013, 09:01:06 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 12, 2013, 09:02:36 PM
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Antonis on July 12, 2013, 09:16:54 PM
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
When I said this a few months ago I was attacked.  ???
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 12, 2013, 09:22:26 PM
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
When I said this a few months ago I was attacked.  ???
Said what?  That it was not administered well?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 12, 2013, 09:24:55 PM
So does this affect the ROCOR WR outside North America?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 12, 2013, 09:34:29 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Father H on July 12, 2013, 09:39:30 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 09:44:24 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick. 
::)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 09:45:38 PM

This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew
This is funny
pray for me a sinner
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 12, 2013, 09:47:17 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick.  

Are you referring to augustin's comment or to the idea of dismantling whole WRO because of one gay-endorsing defrocked priest? Because the latter would be as tragicomic as augustin said. Homophobia FTW.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 12, 2013, 09:47:35 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on July 12, 2013, 09:49:05 PM
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/37789325.jpg)

Good call ROCOR, keep the faith strong, pure and unchanged!
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 12, 2013, 09:50:31 PM
ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Well, they're observing rites and customs aren't they? I didn't think you made value judgments beyond that.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 12, 2013, 09:51:37 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

I hope this is the case, but it looks(to me, at least), that it wont be the case, because of this

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 

"

I hope however, that I am wrong.
Let us pray you are.

What "particularities of the Western Rite" does one bring to the Eastern rite?  Doesn't make sense.

I wonder if the real WRO can be released to the Antiochians.  After all, it seems Bp. Antoun saw through the recently defrocked Monk.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 12, 2013, 09:52:59 PM
ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Well, they're observing rites and customs aren't they? I didn't think you made value judgments beyond that.
AFAIK unlike the Antiochians that generally followed what was customary in their non-orthodox W counterparts, ROCOR was full of people restoring rites fallen into disuse and oblivion more than a millennium ago.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 12, 2013, 09:53:52 PM
My gosh, I think that Jack Chick tracts have more tact and empathy than some of the posts on this thread.  This whole situation is tragic and will damage the souls of many in the Church.  There is no humor in it, there should be no smug satisfaction in the downfall of the WR.

Lord, have mercy.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 12, 2013, 09:54:19 PM
ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Well, they're observing rites and customs aren't they? I didn't think you made value judgments beyond that.
Augustine thinks Orthodoxy should be nominal, ethnic thing.  Nothing of the sort of ontological truth.

Has Christopher Mc something (his name escapes me) been around?  IIRC, he finally made the jump and went ROCOR. Wonder what will happen now.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 12, 2013, 09:55:56 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.

I disagree. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with what you wrote but I don't think they would force them to adopt Byzantine rite if the only problem was too swift schedule.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 12, 2013, 10:01:08 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"
opp

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 12, 2013, 10:01:29 PM
I disagree. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with what you wrote but I don't think they would force them to adopt Byzantine rite if the only problem was too swift schedule.

Perhaps the liturgical and clerical "chaos" is to the extent that, short of re-training every priest as WR, it's easier to just have them become ER? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 12, 2013, 10:04:40 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.
Oh?  Who was the Adolf von Buccow of the WRO?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Maria on July 12, 2013, 10:07:40 PM
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2013/20130712_ensynodmeeting.html (http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2013/20130712_ensynodmeeting.html)
Quote
1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.  

2) To censure Bishop Jerome for his willfulness in administering the parishes adhering to the Western Rite, and in performing various ecclesial services not approved by the Synod of Bishops, and for criticizing his brethren in letters to clergy and laity.  

3) To deny recognition of the ordination of a group of individuals by Bishop Jerome during a single divine service, and to regularize them following a thorough examination of the candidates.

It seems that the three primary points as listed above in this Synodal declaration have to do with Bishop JEROME's recent group ordination of Western Rite clergy (points 1 & 3), the performance of non-approved ecclesial services in said Western Rite (point 2), and the critical and self-willed attitude of Bishop Jerome (point 2).
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 12, 2013, 10:08:02 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.

I disagree. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with what you wrote but I don't think they would force them to adopt Byzantine rite if the only problem was too swift schedule.

Well, it's not clear to me they're making the Benedictines be ER, just the recent converts, which I don't oppose in theory because they need time for proper formation and if they were off on their own in the WR with little supervision and little community with people who have been Orthodox awhile, they wouldn't get this.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Maria on July 12, 2013, 10:08:23 PM
Remember the recent reception by Bp. Jerome of some wanna be Catholics in Germany?

Could this have been the trigger?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 12, 2013, 10:09:37 PM
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"
opp

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Agreed.
IOW, they are being treated as yesterda's G_C (for those of us who think the Vatican has changed).  Not really-at least ROCOR is being up front and honest about its impositions.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Father H on July 12, 2013, 10:10:04 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick. 
::)

 :P
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 12, 2013, 10:59:17 PM
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.

Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 12, 2013, 11:03:40 PM
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.

Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

Not sure what you mean... surely people with graduate degrees from an invisible Orthodox seminary would know how to run things like clockwork.  :police:
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 12, 2013, 11:59:12 PM
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.

Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

Not sure what you mean... surely people with graduate degrees from an invisible Orthodox seminary would know how to run things like clockwork.  :police:

Some invisible Orthodox seminaries are better than some visible ones sometimes.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Antonis on July 13, 2013, 01:35:28 AM
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
When I said this a few months ago I was attacked.  ???
Said what?  That it was not administered well?
Yes, one of multiple things that make me uneasy about the Western Rite. But on this forum that makes me, among other things, an orientalist and ethnophyletist.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Cyrillic on July 13, 2013, 04:31:21 AM
That was unexpected.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Gunnarr on July 13, 2013, 04:57:46 AM
At least they still have the Old Rite!

rite?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 13, 2013, 07:43:50 AM
Does anyone have any numbers as to how large the ROCOR WR (number of parishes) and how it compares to the Antiochian one? I'm interested to know how this will change the standing of the WR as a whole.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 13, 2013, 07:47:17 AM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 13, 2013, 07:58:45 AM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

Thanks. So it would basically halve the WR?

10 people per parish seems awfully small. That's just two or three families (or one priest's family). I had the impression that they were larger.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 13, 2013, 08:00:23 AM
I could be very wrong. I thought most were either small missions, or parishes that had come in from elsewhere (e.g. Episcopalalian) and only part of the parish had come in. I shouldn't have made the post since I don't really know for sure.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 13, 2013, 08:12:55 AM
I could be very wrong. I thought most were either small missions, or parishes that had come in from elsewhere (e.g. Episcopalalian) and only part of the parish had come in. I shouldn't have made the post since I don't really know for sure.

The vicariate's website is still up. 250 souls sounds accurate .  http://www.rwrv.org/directory.html
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Rdunbar123 on July 13, 2013, 08:23:37 AM
I am Antiochian WR. I was prepared to become a Catechumen at a Greek Orthodox parish when I heard about WR on this website. Before I became orthodox, I did ask myself, what if WR failed? The instant answer was go to another Orthodox jurisdiction. the first Divine Liturgy I went to was a Greek service so I only understood parts of it the rest was Greek to me. Then I find out that the languages the liturgies are done in are Archaic languages. Also like it or not I am western and do not want to learn a bunch of foreign language terms and go to festivals that are a mere curiosity to me. A lot of people on this website imply that there is no western culture. I am not _______(fill in the blank) and have no interest in being. I was cradle RC and would have happily converted anyway but feel at home in a place that honors my culture while having the correct theology that was handed down by the Apostles. My parish is mostly converts(RC converts are a minority) many of whom converted based on a study of church history asking the same questions  I did. I would guess there are many Greek, Russian, ect parishes that are mostly Orthodox because they were born that way and like many RCs don't know, follow, or understand the teaching of their church(see Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, ect). the long and short is I would be sad to see our WR go out of existence but I would still be Orthodox. OTOH, I have been to a WR parish in another state where I thought I was in a WAY BACK machine to a pre Vatican II service. I think the greatest need of the WR is consistency on practices. I do understand the concern of posters on this website. sorry for the rant, I just am sad to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater. If Bishop Jerome needs correction OK correct him. I just  hope that The ROCOR WR members did the same analysis as I did and  are Orthodox first and WR second. I may change jobs next year and will still attend the closest eastern parish if WR is not available.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 13, 2013, 10:00:10 AM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.
Right? Likewise, what of the ongoing dialogues with schismatic Western Orthodox to reconcile them to the Church? Such a sad situation.


So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.
The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.
Agreed, more time could have been taken to make sure solid clergy candidates were really in place. It's hard being a priestless mission, but better than ordaining every breathing male. (Which, in all fairness, seems to be the practice in much of North American Orthodoxy :-/.)


I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh


At least they still have the Old Rite!
rite?
;-)
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 13, 2013, 10:09:47 AM
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

The only switch they would need to make is walking clockwise around the altar and using three fingers to cross themselves. The term "old rite" is a bit of a misnomer, they use the same Byzantine Rite as the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church but with certain minor variations, many of which are no more noticeable than the variations you often find between parishes who use the 'regular' forms of the Byzantine rite.

I don't think they have anything to fear, unless there are similar administrative concerns.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 13, 2013, 11:41:18 AM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 13, 2013, 11:42:01 AM
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

Got any proof of that?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Ionnis on July 13, 2013, 12:49:36 PM
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

Got any proof of that?

I can't refer you to any document, but I can assure you that Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) is no defender of the Western Rite.  I don't know if I would characterize his attitude as hostile though. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ilyazhito on July 13, 2013, 12:55:36 PM
Dismantling the Western Rite is drastic, but the Synodal document says that +Hilarion will still be the President of Western Rite parishes. Bishop Jerome must have ordained WR clergymen too hastily, and what the document says is that no more Western Rite clergy will be ordained until Metropolitan Hilarion can ensure that they teach Orthodox theology and that they live a proper lifestyle. The WR parishes will still function.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: NightOwl on July 13, 2013, 01:29:16 PM
Maybe ROCOR parishes should offer more all-English services? That would probably remove some of the necessity for a WR in the first place.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 13, 2013, 02:35:39 PM
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

Got any proof of that?

I can't refer you to any document, but I can assure you that Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) is no defender of the Western Rite.  I don't know if I would characterize his attitude as hostile though.  

I've encountered Bishop Peter on numerous occasions and have friends who regularly see Archbishop Mark, and neither are friends (to say the least) of the Western Rites, or much of anything non-Russian for that matter. My impressions of Archbishop Gabriel are all from others, but point in the same direction...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 13, 2013, 02:41:10 PM
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

The only switch they would need to make is walking clockwise around the altar and using three fingers to cross themselves. The term "old rite" is a bit of a misnomer, they use the same Byzantine Rite as the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church but with certain minor variations, many of which are no more noticeable than the variations you often find between parishes who use the 'regular' forms of the Byzantine rite.

I don't think they have anything to fear, unless there are similar administrative concerns.

Yes, simplistic, but there are significant (to them) differences - their use of church music (Znamenny chant), keeping of older (and fuller) liturgical practices, the sign of the cross, minor variations in the liturgical books, the direction of the processions, traditional iconography instead of the Western painting styles popular in many Russian Orthodox churches, et cetera.

I think given the mindset amongst many modern Byzantine Orthodox of 'our way or the highway' they may have cause to worry. A close friend of mine met a priest who thinks the Romans used to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom before Vatican II - no wonder there's so much ridiculousness and misunderstanding in Byzantine Orthodoxy vis-a-vis  the Western Rites, reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox, et cetera.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 13, 2013, 02:41:58 PM
Maybe ROCOR parishes should offer more all-English services? That would probably remove some of the necessity for a WR in the first place.

It's not an issue of language, though there's certainly a need for that in North America and the UK if the ROCOR's parishes are to survive long-term...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 13, 2013, 03:02:00 PM
A close friend of mine met a priest who thinks the Romans used to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom before Vatican II - no wonder there's so much ridiculousness and misunderstanding in Byzantine Orthodoxy vis-a-vis  the Western Rites, reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox, et cetera.

LOL.  Silly Orthodoxes...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 03:45:33 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.
Right? Likewise, what of the ongoing dialogues with schismatic Western Orthodox to reconcile them to the Church? Such a sad situation.


So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.
The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.
Agreed, more time could have been taken to make sure solid clergy candidates were really in place. It's hard being a priestless mission, but better than ordaining every breathing male. (Which, in all fairness, seems to be the practice in much of North American Orthodoxy :-/.)


I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh


At least they still have the Old Rite!
rite?
;-)
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

I don't know all the hierarchs are hostile to WR. Bishop Peter was one of St. John Maximovitch's altar boys. Doesn't mean he follows him in everything, but there's I would think an understanding.

As for the Old Rite, AFAIK, it has been well-established in the Moscow Patriarchate from the time of the Holy Synod. In Russia, there has been a blessing for missionary priests to serve the Old Rite (using the old books) in Raskol'nik areas since the 19th century. I don't have information on how/if it happens there today, but I would imagine it might.

I think, with regard to the WR, the hiearchs are concerned that the clergy and people have not had time to be fully immersed in Orthodoxy and would not be hostile to the idea of a restored and expanded WR if they were not dealing with fresh converts converting in groups and not really integrating and understanding what it means to be Orthodox.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 03:47:32 PM
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

The only switch they would need to make is walking clockwise around the altar and using three fingers to cross themselves. The term "old rite" is a bit of a misnomer, they use the same Byzantine Rite as the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church but with certain minor variations, many of which are no more noticeable than the variations you often find between parishes who use the 'regular' forms of the Byzantine rite.

I don't think they have anything to fear, unless there are similar administrative concerns.

Hmmm. I have examined the Old Rite prayer book and horologion and there are some differences which, to a New Riter would be seemingly significant. There's a different ethos. Often when things look just a little different, they are more noticeable.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 03:48:12 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

Not really. Switching jurisdiction is not leaving the Church.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 03:49:35 PM
Maybe ROCOR parishes should offer more all-English services? That would probably remove some of the necessity for a WR in the first place.

There are plenty of ROCOR parishes which use English either a lot or exclusively.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 13, 2013, 03:59:55 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.
not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 13, 2013, 04:01:46 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 13, 2013, 04:03:17 PM
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick.  

Are you referring to augustin's comment or to the idea of dismantling whole WRO because of one gay-endorsing defrocked priest? Because the latter would be as tragicomic as augustin said. Homophobia FTW.
it seems the defrocked's gay-endorsements aren't the only problem.  Just one of a host of related ones.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 13, 2013, 04:05:22 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 13, 2013, 04:06:26 PM
A close friend of mine met a priest who thinks the Romans used to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom before Vatican II - no wonder there's so much ridiculousness and misunderstanding in Byzantine Orthodoxy vis-a-vis  the Western Rites, reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox, et cetera.

LOL.  Silly Orthodoxes...
No. Silly overorthodoxes.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 13, 2013, 04:08:14 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 04:15:17 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Uh-oh. I remember the last time somebody said Isa had multiple hypostases.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 13, 2013, 04:16:22 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 04:37:17 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

I took the green pill.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Maria on July 13, 2013, 05:05:03 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

I took the green pill.

I have read that the purple pill is Vallium, isn't it?
(Do read Delano by Dr. John Orozco.)
So, what is that green pill.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 13, 2013, 05:50:20 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

+10

If I was recently received in RWRV and ordained specifically as a Latin priest and then suddenly hear that my Synod exterminates the whole WRO and orders all to switch to Byzantine rite I would be downright shocked. ROCOR would be the last church I wanted to be associated with. I might just end up leaving whole Orthodoxy and all her Greco-Russian morons to be and try to live as a catholic Christian somewhere else.

That might sound a bit melodramatic but that's how people are sometimes.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 05:50:37 PM
Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.
How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?
I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

I took the green pill.

I have read that the purple pill is Vallium, isn't it?
(Do read Delano by Dr. John Orozco.)
So, what is that green pill.

A joke. The Matrix features a blue pill and a red pill. Take one, and life continues in happy ignorance. Take the other, and you find out what's really going on.

Or, in Airplane, the passengers are given a choice of chicken or fish, and Leslie Nielsen says, "I that's right. I had the lasagna."
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 13, 2013, 07:27:20 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

Not really. Switching jurisdiction is not leaving the Church.

Alpo said "I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether."
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 13, 2013, 07:29:56 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.
not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

So it is okay to apostasize from the church now?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 13, 2013, 07:33:49 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

+10

If I was recently received in RWRV and ordained specifically as a Latin priest and then suddenly hear that my Synod exterminates the whole WRO and orders all to switch to Byzantine rite I would be downright shocked. ROCOR would be the last church I wanted to be associated with. I might just end up leaving whole Orthodoxy and all her Greco-Russian morons to be and try to live as a catholic Christian somewhere else.

That might sound a bit melodramatic but that's how people are sometimes.

It's not melodramatic. It's idolatry.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 09:31:52 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

Not really. Switching jurisdiction is not leaving the Church.

Alpo said "I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether."

Ah. Missed that, I did. Well, there's been a lot of hysterical commentary from folks not even close to the situation.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 13, 2013, 09:32:25 PM
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.
not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

So it is okay to apostasize from the church now?

No. And the Holy Synod did no such thing.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: NightOwl on July 13, 2013, 09:50:48 PM
Okay, so besides the all-English services, exactly what distinguishes(ed) WR from the rest of ROCOR? Or WR from OCA? I know this is a giant can of worms but can't we just have one American Orthodox Church already? I wonder if I'll live to see the day...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: NightOwl on July 13, 2013, 10:41:34 PM
Okay, so besides the all-English services, exactly what distinguishes(ed) WR from the rest of ROCOR? Or WR from OCA?

Just looked up the distinction myself... don't know why I wasn't sure of it before, but it's obviously a complicated situation. I guess a better question would be... what distinguishes the ROCOR WR from, say, the Antiochian WR? Shouldn't all WRs be roughly homogenous regardless of jurisdiction, considering their mission?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 13, 2013, 10:52:32 PM
what distinguishes the ROCOR WR from, say, the Antiochian WR?

From what I understand, the ROCOR WR attempts to restore Western rite services as they were before 1054, while the Antiochian WR makes use of current, post-schism ("the living tradition") Western traditions that are compatible with Orthodoxy, amending them where needed.

Quote
Shouldn't all WRs be roughly homogenous regardless of jurisdiction, considering their mission?

Given how tiny the WR movement appears to be, homogeneity would seem desirable.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheMathematician on July 13, 2013, 11:59:02 PM
something ive heard, is that ROCOR is more RC, and Antiochian WR is more anglician, as mush as you can resemble something while still being Orthodox.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: 88Devin12 on July 14, 2013, 01:37:35 AM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 14, 2013, 06:13:03 AM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

Back in the day, I understood their self imposed isolation, now there is no excuse. I agree.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 14, 2013, 06:18:54 AM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

Back in the day, I understood their self imposed isolation, now there is no excuse. I agree.

I agree that there is no excuse but olds habits die hard. It is not necessary self-imposed isolation but just a bad habit.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: lubeltri on July 14, 2013, 04:09:17 PM
I was concerned about this when I was considering becoming Orthodox 7-8 years ago. Glad now that I didn't go through with it.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 14, 2013, 04:23:48 PM
I was concerned about this when I was considering becoming Orthodox 7-8 years ago. Glad now that I didn't go through with it.

I don't understand..? So it's not the obvious dogmatic differences or practices between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that concern/concerned you, but whether a particular flavor of worship would be around?  ???
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: lubeltri on July 14, 2013, 04:35:56 PM
I was concerned about this when I was considering becoming Orthodox 7-8 years ago. Glad now that I didn't go through with it.

I don't understand..? So it's not the obvious dogmatic differences or practices between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that concern/concerned you, but whether a particular flavor of worship would be around?  ???

Well, I never saw the dogmatic differences being nearly as great as most Orthodox see them. I suppose I would have been a nice, wishy-washy, Catholic-friendly EP-Bartholomew-style Orthodox. But I would have had a hard time keeping my deeply Latin-Western orientation as an Orthodox. That was my fear. And I didn't feel confident in the future of WRO. Even less so now.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: William on July 14, 2013, 04:36:54 PM
I was concerned about this when I was considering becoming Orthodox 7-8 years ago. Glad now that I didn't go through with it.

I don't understand..? So it's not the obvious dogmatic differences or practices between Catholicism and Orthodoxy that concern/concerned you, but whether a particular flavor of worship would be around?  ???

Dogma is just something those old meanies on the internet worry about. Real Christians are more concerned about being able to pray slightly differently than everyone else in a parish with a maximum of nine other people. Lubeltri really dodged a bullet there.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 07:20:49 AM
Hi. Latecomer chiming in.

I have to admit that I am shocked by this. I am not familiar with the charges leveled against Bishop Jerome but even if he did something wrong why should the entire Western Rite of ROCOR be dismantled? Very sad.

Thank you! Prior to finding this thread, I kept hearing from Orthodox who think it's no big deal.

(Meanwhile I've been trying to imagine, with my finite brain power, the field day that Orthodox posters would have if there were instead an announcement that a bunch of Greek Catholic churches were forced to become Latin.  :o )
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 15, 2013, 07:56:02 AM
(Meanwhile I've been trying to imagine, with my finite brain power, the field day that Orthodox posters would have if there were instead an announcement that a bunch of Greek Catholic churches were forced to become Latin.  :o )

I'm sure, though the differences are vast. Setting up a tiny Western Rite mission to accommodate a particular kind of convert, realising it was (in their minds) a failed experiment, and shutting it down is very different from accepting large numbers of Orthodox Christians into Communion with the promise that they could continue to be as they were, and then going back on that promise.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 15, 2013, 08:06:00 AM
I haven't been closely following this, but have they actually stated they are closing down WR?  I thought it was just a moratorium on new priests into the rite.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 08:58:13 AM
(Meanwhile I've been trying to imagine, with my finite brain power, the field day that Orthodox posters would have if there were instead an announcement that a bunch of Greek Catholic churches were forced to become Latin.  :o )

I'm sure, though the differences are vast. Setting up a tiny Western Rite mission to accommodate a particular kind of convert, realising it was (in their minds) a failed experiment, and shutting it down is very different from accepting large numbers of Orthodox Christians into Communion with the promise that they could continue to be as they were, and then going back on that promise.

Oh, I don't deny the differences. I have never seen Western-Rite Orthodoxy engaging in uniatism/proselytism (which was a major factor in Greek Catholicism, until relatively recently). But that's not the point; the WRO in question became Orthodox under the understanding that they would be Western-Rite, and now the WR is being forcibly taken from them.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 09:00:42 AM
I haven't been closely following this, but have they actually stated they are closing down WR?  I thought it was just a moratorium on new priests into the rite.

If only that were all that was said. Read further:

"8 ) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite."
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 09:19:48 AM
From what I understand, the ROCOR WR attempts to restore Western rite services as they were before 1054, while the Antiochian WR makes use of current, post-schism ("the living tradition") Western traditions that are compatible with Orthodoxy, amending them where needed.

Exactly.

The real issue here seems not to have been the character of ROCOR's Western Rite liturgics (vs. Antioch's, etc.) but that Bishop Jerome took a short cut to grow his vicariate: receiving and ordaining vagante ('independent Catholic') types quickly, without checking them out or teaching them. Nathan Monk was the last straw: a 28-year-old showoff priest wannabe who loudly quit everything after eight months.

(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)

So yeah, ROCOR had to clean house; the Western Rite is only incidental.

The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

And if these ex-WRs are understandably disillusioned so they leave Orthodoxy to join a Western church or start their own, regarding the criticism that they would be idolizing their culture, actually they would be re-enacting the founding of ACROD.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Marc1152 on July 15, 2013, 09:51:17 AM
Bishop Jerome served at our Parish Feast yesterday. I was wondering what all the buzz was about.

Let me just say that the Bishop was in good cheer. He delivered an excellent Homily and at the meal told interesting stories and was very affable. This is a good lesson on how a Christian should be like in times of personal adversity. He was steady and without any apparent negative emotion...  Good for him. Please include him in your prayers.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 09:55:54 AM
From what I understand, the ROCOR WR attempts to restore Western rite services as they were before 1054, while the Antiochian WR makes use of current, post-schism ("the living tradition") Western traditions that are compatible with Orthodoxy, amending them where needed.

Exactly.

The real issue here seems not to have been the character of ROCOR's Western Rite liturgics (vs. Antioch's, etc.) but that Bishop Jerome took a short cut to grow his vicariate: receiving and ordaining vagante ('independent Catholic') types quickly, without checking them out or teaching them. Nathan Monk was the last straw: a 28-year-old showoff priest wannabe who loudly quit everything after eight months.

(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)

So yeah, ROCOR had to clean house; the Western Rite is only incidental.

The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

And if these ex-WRs are understandably disillusioned so they leave Orthodoxy to join a Western church or start their own, regarding the criticism that they would be idolizing their culture, actually they would be re-enacting the founding of ACROD.

A fair comparison in some ways, but in some ways unfair. I don't want to analyze it to death, but I would point out that the pre-VCII actions of Latin bishops in America against Eastern Catholics was:
- on a much larger scale and
- entailed not only forcible change-of-rite but also the expelling of priests from America.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 09:57:19 AM
(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)
Btw, just for the record, that is how your Ruthenian and Romanian "sui juris" churches (amongst others perhaps) got started.

So yeah, ROCOR had to clean house; the Western Rite is only incidental.

The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Surprisingly, that is correct.
And if these ex-WRs are understandably disillusioned so they leave Orthodoxy to join a Western church or start their own, regarding the criticism that they would be idolizing their culture, actually they would be re-enacting the founding of ACROD.
Not quite.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 09:58:49 AM
Bishop Jerome served at our Parish Feast yesterday. I was wondering what all the buzz was about.

Let me just say that the Bishop was in good cheer. He delivered an excellent Homily and at the meal told interesting stories and was very affable. This is a good lesson on how a Christian should be like in times of personal adversity. He was steady and without any apparent negative emotion...  Good for him. Please include him in your prayers.

Good for him; I saw him once, and he seemed nice like you describe.

This isn't his personal scandal; no heresy, theft, or sexual sin. He just made a mistake trying to grow his church so all he can do is gracefully retire, which he seems to be doing.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
Hi. Latecomer chiming in.

I have to admit that I am shocked by this. I am not familiar with the charges leveled against Bishop Jerome but even if he did something wrong why should the entire Western Rite of ROCOR be dismantled? Very sad.

Thank you! Prior to finding this thread, I kept hearing from Orthodox who think it's no big deal.

(Meanwhile I've been trying to imagine, with my finite brain power, the field day that Orthodox posters would have if there were instead an announcement that a bunch of Greek Catholic churches were forced to become Latin.  :o )
What field day?  That's old news.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 10:11:38 AM
(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)
Btw, just for the record, that is how your Ruthenian and Romanian "sui juris" churches (amongst others perhaps) got started.

So yeah, ROCOR had to clean house; the Western Rite is only incidental.

The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Surprisingly, that is correct.
And if these ex-WRs are understandably disillusioned so they leave Orthodoxy to join a Western church or start their own, regarding the criticism that they would be idolizing their culture, actually they would be re-enacting the founding of ACROD.
Not quite.

I forgot that about the Romanian Catholic Church, easy to do since it's rather small. I know the Ruthenians had a number of priests go under Rome in the 1646 union of Uzhorod (legend has it; there's no written act of union from that). If they tricked Orthodox bishops to get a bishop, I'm not too surprised. 'Wait, what's this? Churchmen have done sneaky things over the centuries? Stop the presses!' Not news. Leave the church because they're a bunch of hypocrites? Not so much.

Of course the Catholic Church and the 'Independent Inclusive Anglican Rite Old Catholic Orthodox Church' (some bishop wannabe, who maybe tricked an Eastern bishop into ordaining him, having services in his rec room with his family for a congregation) aren't equivalent really; only theoretically in the opinion of many Orthodox to whom everything outside the visible church is undifferentiated darkness.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 10:27:28 AM
(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)
Btw, just for the record, that is how your Ruthenian and Romanian "sui juris" churches (amongst others perhaps) got started.

I don't know about that (seems like it might be a bit of an oversimplification) but regardless, the Catholic Church has now admitted that the Union of Brest and the like were mistakes.

BTW, is it possible that we're inside a Lakehouse phenomenon, where I'm writing things in 2013 and you're reading them in 1913 (or some other year before Vatican II)?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 11:22:31 AM
(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)
Btw, just for the record, that is how your Ruthenian and Romanian "sui juris" churches (amongst others perhaps) got started.

I don't know about that (seems like it might be a bit of an oversimplification) but regardless, the Catholic Church has now admitted that the Union of Brest and the like were mistakes.

BTW, is it possible that we're inside a Lakehouse phenomenon, where I'm writing things in 2013 and you're reading them in 1913 (or some other year before Vatican II)?

Has it? I'm not sure I'd claim that.

A recent development is an idea I've been promoting, that the church gives never-Catholic Orthodox the benefit of the doubt. So with the goal of corporate reunion, of the whole Orthodox Church joining the Catholic Church, such are not solicited. So operations (that failed) such as the French Assumptionists starting 'Greek Greek Catholic' churches in Greece 100 years ago, and Ruthenian Archbishop Nicholas Elko starting St Nicholas Greek Catholic Church in Anchorage, Alaska, to convert the Orthodox Tlingits, are out. And that's fine.

But such Orthodox approaching the Catholic Church on their own, as happened at Brest, were and are accepted, but now quietly. The true-church claim demands that acceptance of conversions. So in that sense, no, we can't say the Union of Brest was a mistake. Saying so is branch-theory, the popular notion that Vatican II dropped the true-church claim. It didn't because nothing can.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: age234 on July 15, 2013, 11:27:55 AM
I only heard about this happening at church yesterday. Surprising, I must say, although it has seemed like the whole thing was administrated badly and there was little liturgical cohesion among parishes.

I think the days of the Western Rite are numbered. Based on what I've heard from people I know in the WR community, Antioch is apparently becoming more strict also. (As I understand it, the position now is that the Eastern Rite is normative for Orthodoxy, and the Western Rite exists only as a pastoral concession for entire Anglican or Catholic parishes that want to join the Church—but the WR is not an end unto itself.) I think when Metropolitan Philip passes, that might be the end of it.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 15, 2013, 11:37:14 AM
I only heard about this happening at church yesterday. Surprising, I must say, although it has seemed like the whole thing was administrated badly and there was little liturgical cohesion among parishes.

I think the days of the Western Rite are numbered. Based on what I've heard from people I know in the WR community, Antioch is apparently becoming more strict also. (As I understand it, the position now is that the Eastern Rite is normative for Orthodoxy, and the Western Rite exists only as a pastoral concession for entire Anglican or Catholic parishes that want to join the Church—but the WR is not an end unto itself.) I think when Metropolitan Philip passes, that might be the end of it.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "an end unto itself" but the approach towards the WR in Antioch has always been towards whole parishes coming in. It is the only way WR is allowed. So in that regards, yes, the WR will only exist if there are parishes in place to keep it going.

It is no secret that Met. PHILIP is a staunch champion of the Western Rite, but so are Bps BASIL and JOHN, as well as other prominent figures in the Antiochain Archdiocese, such as Fr. Michael Keiser who is in charge of evangelistic efforts. So the passing of His Eminence doesn't really pose a threat, in my mind.

This is a very stark contrast between Antioch and ROCOR, who have upwards of 66 priests ordained for less than 30 parishes/missions. One can't help but wonder if this is not also a cause of ROCOR's current predicament?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 11:43:26 AM
I only heard about this happening at church yesterday. Surprising, I must say, although it has seemed like the whole thing was administrated badly and there was little liturgical cohesion among parishes.

I think the days of the Western Rite are numbered. Based on what I've heard from people I know in the WR community, Antioch is apparently becoming more strict also. (As I understand it, the position now is that the Eastern Rite is normative for Orthodoxy, and the Western Rite exists only as a pastoral concession for entire Anglican or Catholic parishes that want to join the Church—but the WR is not an end unto itself.) I think when Metropolitan Philip passes, that might be the end of it.

The whole thing was administrated badly. Exactly.

There was a kind of cohesion in ROCOR WR besides Orthodoxy generally: anything but the recognizably Roman Catholic, old or new, so contrived rites either putatively pre-schism or pasted from non-Anglo-Catholic Anglicanism.

Is 'Byzantine is normative' the official position of Antioch? Antioch reneging on WR would be news.

Then again WR of any kind is so small that most Orthodox have never heard of it, just like most Catholics have never heard of Eastern Catholics.

Quote
ROCOR, who have upwards of 66 priests ordained for less than 30 parishes/missions. One can't help but wonder if this is not also a cause of ROCOR's current predicament?

My guess is that was exactly the problem. Bishop Jerome ordained lots of priests without vetting them (and more than were needed?). Hence Nathan Monk, the bomb that blew up ROCOR WR (even though Monk wasn't WR when he quit, but he was among those hastily ordained for WR).
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 11:56:02 AM
(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)
Btw, just for the record, that is how your Ruthenian and Romanian "sui juris" churches (amongst others perhaps) got started.

I don't know about that (seems like it might be a bit of an oversimplification) but regardless, the Catholic Church has now admitted that the Union of Brest and the like were mistakes.

BTW, is it possible that we're inside a Lakehouse phenomenon, where I'm writing things in 2013 and you're reading them in 1913 (or some other year before Vatican II)?

Has it?

Well, if you accept the Balamand Statement, then Yes. Granted, the Catholic Church has never said "Balamand is an official document that all Catholics must accept."

I'm not sure I'd claim that.

A recent development is an idea I've been promoting, that the church gives never-Catholic Orthodox the benefit of the doubt. So with the goal of corporate reunion, of the whole Orthodox Church joining the Catholic Church, such are not solicited. So operations (that failed) such as the French Assumptionists starting 'Greek Greek Catholic' churches in Greece 100 years ago, and Ruthenian Archbishop Nicholas Elko starting St Nicholas Greek Catholic Church in Anchorage, Alaska, to convert the Orthodox Tlingits, are out. And that's fine.

But such Orthodox approaching the Catholic Church on their own, as happened at Brest, were and are accepted, but now quietly. The true-church claim demands that acceptance of conversions. So in that sense, no, we can't say the Union of Brest was a mistake. Saying so is branch-theory, the popular notion that Vatican II dropped the true-church claim. It didn't because nothing can.

I think you're reading far too much into it. Saying that the Union of Brest was a mistake does not mean branch-theory, or dropping the true-church claim, or closing the door against any Orthodox trying (of their own accord) to switch sides. Rather it means that no longer follow the old policy of "uniatism".

Cardinal Kasper hit on some of the nuances that tend to be lost on the blogosphere: http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1341020?eng=y
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 15, 2013, 12:07:15 PM
ROCOR, who have upwards of 66 priests ordained for less than 30 parishes/missions.

Wow, if the average size of each parish/mission is 10 people, then that's insane.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 15, 2013, 12:10:36 PM
little liturgical cohesion among parishes.

Why does this seem to be a common complaint? I don't necessarily see the problem with having liturgical diversity, even among WR parishes.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 12:18:40 PM
I think I follow you, Peter J. Better to work for corporate reunion than to set up new churches of converts to compete with the Orthodox. But again at Brest they approached Catholicism; Catholicism didn't start it. And yes, 'Balamand said' does not mean 'the Catholic Church teaches'.

Quote
Wow, if the average size of each parish/mission is 10 people, then that's insane.

Yes. Probably a case of 'lots of parishes looks good on paper'.

Quote
Why does this seem to be a common complaint? I don't necessarily see the problem with having liturgical diversity, even among WR parishes.

Right. The whole point of WR is to prove an Orthodox claim to universality (catholicity) just like Catholicism's. The diversity of WR practice (and ROCOR WR had a distinctive underlying character in common that was different from Antiochian WR) wasn't why ROCOR has suppressed its WR. Bishop Jerome sacrificed quality for growth and it backfired.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 01:16:02 PM
(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)
Btw, just for the record, that is how your Ruthenian and Romanian "sui juris" churches (amongst others perhaps) got started.

I don't know about that (seems like it might be a bit of an oversimplification) but regardless, the Catholic Church has now admitted that the Union of Brest and the like were mistakes.
The Catholic Church denounced them as errors in 1441, 1448, 1451, 1459, 1458, 1597ff, etc.

The Vatican celebrated them in 1996, 2000 and other times:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20000720_unione-romania-roma_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19960418_union-uzhorod_en.html
BTW, is it possible that we're inside a Lakehouse phenomenon, where I'm writing things in 2013 and you're reading them in 1913 (or some other year before Vatican II)?
No, I'm reading them in 1441, 1448, 1451, 1459, 1458, 1596, 1597, 1700, and thereafter, all the way up to 2013, present day.

the Vatican's history does not go back to the Apostles, but it does predate Vatican II.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 01:19:16 PM
But such Orthodox approaching the Catholic Church on their own, as happened at Brest,

yeeeaaaah.  That nudging by Sigismund Vasa, like the nudging he was engaged at the time in Sweden, had nothing to do with that.
were and are accepted, but now quietly. The true-church claim demands that acceptance of conversions. So in that sense, no, we can't say the Union of Brest was a mistake. Saying so is branch-theory, the popular notion that Vatican II dropped the true-church claim. It didn't because nothing can.
Just Truth.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Papist on July 15, 2013, 01:59:02 PM
Very sad to see the Western Rite disappear from ROCOR. I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 02:08:38 PM
There's still the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, which while not Catholic is not anti-Catholic and tries to do just what you say, make Orthodoxy more than Byzantine. It's pre-Vatican II minus the Pope (old-school Old Catholic) and its near-clone, '50s high Episcopal.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2013, 02:09:30 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 02:12:45 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 
Indeed.  The EO Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Antioch should be reviving our rites.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 02:13:22 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 02:32:13 PM
I think I follow you, Peter J. Better to work for corporate reunion than to set up new churches of converts to compete with the Orthodox. But again at Brest they approached Catholicism; Catholicism didn't start it. And yes, 'Balamand said' does not mean 'the Catholic Church teaches'.

Well, I don't accept your version of the Union of Brest. (Not that I necessarily believe that everything Orthodox say about it is true either. But I believe the truth lies somewhere in between.)

Of course, I guess the important thing is that we not engage in proselytism now. We can't change the past.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 15, 2013, 02:41:48 PM
Yes. Probably a case of 'lots of parishes looks good on paper'.

Lots of parishes can make sense, particularly in the US where distances are so vast. But if most of these parishes have 10 people, having 2 priests for every parish is nuts. Most Byzantine-rite parishes with 2 priests have many more parishioners than the total number of all WR Orthodox.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 15, 2013, 02:52:26 PM
Yes. Probably a case of 'lots of parishes looks good on paper'.

Lots of parishes can make sense, particularly in the US where distances are so vast. But if most of these parishes have 10 people, having 2 priests for every parish is nuts. Most Byzantine-rite parishes with 2 priests have many more parishioners than the total number of all WR Orthodox.

I'm not even certain if all the ordained priests are assigned to any particular parish, but I could be wrong. The mindset seems to be, "We'll ordain you, now go and start a parish."

I suppose there's nothing wrong with this, in theory, but I grow more and more thankful for Antioch's insistence that only whole, existing, stable parishes can come into the WR.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 15, 2013, 03:42:09 PM
According to Fr. Michael Wood, who recently left ROCOR's WRO to join a non-canonical Russian jurisdiction, his new Metropolitan, Daniel, "will consider applications" from ROCOR priests who might be affected by this in order for them to "remain Western rite". Let's hope none of them take the bait and go into schism.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: arimethea on July 15, 2013, 03:47:01 PM
I'm not even certain if all the ordained priests are assigned to any particular parish, but I could be wrong. The mindset seems to be, "We'll ordain you, now go and start a parish."

This has been the ROCOR way for years. If no one else will ordain you, go to ROCOR, they will do it. It is why you end up with parishes made up of a priest and his family.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orest on July 15, 2013, 03:56:41 PM
I'm not even certain if all the ordained priests are assigned to any particular parish, but I could be wrong. The mindset seems to be, "We'll ordain you, now go and start a parish."

This has been the ROCOR way for years. If no one else will ordain you, go to ROCOR, they will do it. It is why you end up with parishes made up of a priest and his family.
And what about education or re-education in an Orthodox seminary?  How many convert ROCOR priests were required to go to Jordanville to undertake a seminary degree before they were ordained?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 15, 2013, 04:11:53 PM
And what about education or re-education in an Orthodox seminary?  How many convert ROCOR priests were required to go to Jordanville to undertake a seminary degree before they were ordained?

I guess they could take the 2 year correspondence course they offer, that seems fairly basic/solid. Not sure why anyone in a WR position would want to do the full 5 year thing though.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 15, 2013, 05:10:53 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

While others might differ, the jury doesn't seem out in my Church. 8)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2013, 05:15:17 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

The intention behind my comment was not to subject the non-Chalcedonians (read: "true church" in fogeyspeak :P) to the judgement of EO, RC, or anyone else.  It was simply to point out that no one "rite" can be identical with "the Church".  The majority of EO may use the Byzantine rite, just as the majority of RC's use the Roman rite, but "Orthodoxy" is not "Byzantine rite" anymore than "Catholicism" is "Roman rite".          
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 05:25:12 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

While others might differ, the jury doesn't seem out in my Church. 8)
My Churches' verdicts are in: the non-Chalcedonians are guilty as charged with Orthodoxy.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Aram on July 15, 2013, 05:29:34 PM
I found out several months ago I literally lived about five minutes away from a ROCOR WR mission for several years without even knowing it existed. I guess it's a former Anglican(?) priest who appears to have built himself a house chapel in his basement. The ROCOR website claims his congregation to be less than ten, though from the looks of his website, that may be an overstatement. There is another pretty active WR congregation (Antiochian) about twenty minutes away, whose priest (a former Lutheran, I think) regularly participates in local pan-Orthodox services (usually in his WR vestments) and is known to many. Yet the ROCOR mission remains rather mysterious.

I find the whole thing quite strange.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2013, 05:49:46 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

While others might differ, the jury doesn't seem out in my Church. 8)
My Churches' verdicts are in: the non-Chalcedonians are guilty as charged with Orthodoxy.

:)

I have a special place in my heart for Antiochians: all the ones I've ever met in real life have been eminently normal.  And, unless I haven't been paying close attention, that seems to transfer to the internet.  And on the internet, "normal" is a rare quality.   
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 15, 2013, 05:55:10 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

While others might differ, the jury doesn't seem out in my Church. 8)
My Churches' verdicts are in: the non-Chalcedonians are guilty as charged with Orthodoxy.

I know our Church (Antioch) definitely views them as Orthodox, but do the other Churches have perspectives that can be generalized one way or the other?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 15, 2013, 07:53:20 PM
little liturgical cohesion among parishes.

Why does this seem to be a common complaint? I don't necessarily see the problem with having liturgical diversity, even among WR parishes.

Indeed. We did well with that situation for over a millennium.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 15, 2013, 07:59:05 PM
To me the ROCOR WR situation hasn't been proven dead, despite all the posting, hysteria, and quoting of the ukaz. What's the situation on the ground? What of the Benedictines, who predate the Vicariate by decades in ROCOR?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 15, 2013, 08:09:38 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

While others might differ, the jury doesn't seem out in my Church. 8)
My Churches' verdicts are in: the non-Chalcedonians are guilty as charged with Orthodoxy.

:)

I have a special place in my heart for Antiochians: all the ones I've ever met in real life have been eminently normal.  And, unless I haven't been paying close attention, that seems to transfer to the internet.  And on the internet, "normal" is a rare quality.   
Don't fool yourself, the Antiochians have been tasked with secretly subverting the non-Chalcedonians and using mind control to implant Chalcedonian thoughts.  Metropolitan Philip is behind it all.  I alone have escaped to bring you this news at great personal cost.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 08:23:47 PM
What of the Benedictines, who predate the Vicariate by decades in ROCOR?

As far as I know, nobody knows yet.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 15, 2013, 08:27:41 PM
Don't fool yourself, the Antiochians have been tasked with secretly subverting the non-Chalcedonians and using mind control to implant Chalcedonian thoughts.  Metropolitan Philip is behind it all.  I alone have escaped to bring you this news at great personal cost.

Canon XIX of Chalcedon II:
If anyone betrays this Great and Holy Council by speaking of the methods outlined in the previous canons to the non-Chalcedonians enemies of God, let him be anathema!
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 15, 2013, 08:28:53 PM
According to the Christminster website, the community is stavropegial, directly under Metropolitan Hilarion, and not part of the Vicariate.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Robb on July 15, 2013, 08:49:46 PM
Checking their website, the ROCOR WR vicarite has probably no more then
a few hundred followers ( They may possibly have more clergy then laity among t

their ranks.
I'm an outsider to this movement, but I'm guessing that ROCOR felt that these people were somewhat
eccentric and more trouble then their worth.  Most WR people sem to be made up ofdisgrunteled ex Anglican/episcoplians
who wanted to get out of their decaying church yet retain some form
of their western liturgical traditions ( Or perhaps a married clergy as well).
Since anti Uniatism is all the rage in this ecumenical day and age, Its
probably for the best that ROCOR is going out of the WR business.  Maybe the Antiocheans
will follow suit. People who want to follow the rites of the western church
should suck it up and head to the real west and let the real east alone.  Hybridism and liturgical archeologist need to get resl.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 08:57:59 PM
To me the ROCOR WR situation hasn't been proven dead, despite all the posting, hysteria, and quoting of the ukaz. What's the situation on the ground? What of the Benedictines, who predate the Vicariate by decades in ROCOR?

Nevertheless, the fact remains that some WR parishes have been ordered to become Byzantine-Rite. (Btw, has anyone noticed that some people are describing that order as "uniatism" despite the fact that WRO are already Orthodox? Weird.)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 15, 2013, 09:03:02 PM
People who want to follow the rites of the western church
should suck it up and head to the real west and let the real east alone.  Hybridism and liturgical archeologist need to get resl.

Which "real West"?  Anglicanism?  Roman Catholicism of the "Ordinary Form"?  Roman Catholicism of the "Extraordinary Form"?  Anglican Ordinariates?  Does it work in reverse?  Do the Eastern Catholics have to "suck it up" and head to the "real East" and leave the West alone?   

At some point, it has to be about the faith. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 15, 2013, 09:16:03 PM
People who want to follow the rites of the western church
should suck it up and head to the real west and let the real east alone.  Hybridism and liturgical archeologist need to get resl.

Which "real West"?  Anglicanism?  Roman Catholicism of the "Ordinary Form"?  Roman Catholicism of the "Extraordinary Form"?  Anglican Ordinariates?  Does it work in reverse?  Do the Eastern Catholics have to "suck it up" and head to the "real East" and leave the West alone?   

At some point, it has to be about the faith. 
Hey, we'll trade our WR in exchange for their EC.  lol
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Agabus on July 15, 2013, 09:24:13 PM
The ROCOR vicarate had more questionable receptions beyond the unfortunate former-Fr. Nathan.

For example, when discussing a certain WRV mission with a priest I respect, he told me to avoid it because the priest attached to the mission:

-Was chrismated an Antiochian convert
-Was ordained an ER Antiochian priest
-Got divorced
-Apostatized to Continuing Anglicanism; got ordained
-Got remarried
-Left Anglicanism to be baptized in the former Milan synod (which has since splintered), rejecting his former Orthodox chrismation
-Was ordained in the Milan synod as part of its WR project
-Was received into ROCOR's WRV despite the fact that a number of clergy from the Antiochians and other jurisdictions wrote ROCOR asking them not to receive him as a priest for the reasons listed above.

If this is correct, then the vicarate really did need to get its house in order. A WR vicarate should not be an end-run for those who cannot (or would not, in Fr. Nathan's case) be canonically received by other jurisdictions.

At very least a real canonical structure with clear guidelines for the reception of clergy and parishes needs to be in place if the WR is going to flourish. (The issue of liturgies also needs to be addressed, as others have said, but that is secondary at the moment.)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 15, 2013, 09:26:39 PM
The ROCOR vicarate had more questionable receptions beyond the unfortunate former-Fr. Nathan.

For example, when discussing a certain WRV mission with a priest I respect, he told me to avoid it because the priest attached to the mission:

-Was chrismated an Antiochian convert
-Was ordained an ER Antiochian priest
-Got divorced
-Apostatized to Continuing Anglicanism; got ordained
-Got remarried
-Left Anglicanism to be baptized in the former Milan synod (which has since splintered), rejecting his former Orthodox chrismation
-Was ordained in the Milan synod as part of its WR project
-Was received into ROCOR's WRV despite the fact that a number of clergy from the Antiochians and other jurisdictions wrote ROCOR asking them not to receive him as a priest for the reasons listed above.

If this is correct, then the vicarate really did need to get its house in order. A WR vicarate should not be an end-run for those who cannot (or would not, in Fr. Nathan's case) be canonically received by other jurisdictions.

At very least a real canonical structure with clear guidelines for the reception of clergy and parishes needs to be in place if the WR is going to flourish. (The issue of liturgies also needs to be addressed, as others have said, but that is secondary at the moment.)

Only one part of that doesn't ring true to me. A Continuing Anglican church recognizes Orthodox orders; such would not have reordained him. Do you simply mean he served as a priest with them?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 09:29:45 PM
I really respected the attempt to make the Orthodox Church more than a Byzantine institution.

It already is.  Some people just haven't read the memo. 

I think the jury's still out in Orthodoxy on the non-Chalcedonians: heretics or misunderstood Orthodox? A conservative vs. liberal battle in Orthodoxy.

While others might differ, the jury doesn't seem out in my Church. 8)
My Churches' verdicts are in: the non-Chalcedonians are guilty as charged with Orthodoxy.

I know our Church (Antioch) definitely views them as Orthodox, but do the other Churches have perspectives that can be generalized one way or the other?
Sort of.  Alexandria more or less has been dragged to the Antiochian position (there are indications that our imported hierarchy might have inclinations otherwise, but have to do like the Romans in Rome).  Jerusalem goes in the opposite direction, for reasons that perhaps should be obvious.  The rest of the Churches are somewhat mixed, running a whole spectrum of perspective.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Agabus on July 15, 2013, 09:30:49 PM
The ROCOR vicarate had more questionable receptions beyond the unfortunate former-Fr. Nathan.

For example, when discussing a certain WRV mission with a priest I respect, he told me to avoid it because the priest attached to the mission:

-Was chrismated an Antiochian convert
-Was ordained an ER Antiochian priest
-Got divorced
-Apostatized to Continuing Anglicanism; got ordained
-Got remarried
-Left Anglicanism to be baptized in the former Milan synod (which has since splintered), rejecting his former Orthodox chrismation
-Was ordained in the Milan synod as part of its WR project
-Was received into ROCOR's WRV despite the fact that a number of clergy from the Antiochians and other jurisdictions wrote ROCOR asking them not to receive him as a priest for the reasons listed above.

If this is correct, then the vicarate really did need to get its house in order. A WR vicarate should not be an end-run for those who cannot (or would not, in Fr. Nathan's case) be canonically received by other jurisdictions.

At very least a real canonical structure with clear guidelines for the reception of clergy and parishes needs to be in place if the WR is going to flourish. (The issue of liturgies also needs to be addressed, as others have said, but that is secondary at the moment.)

Only one part of that doesn't ring true to me. A Continuing Anglican church recognizes Orthodox orders; such would not have reordained him. Do you simply mean he served as a priest with them?
That would be my guess. You know Anglicanism better than I do.

From my secondhand knowledge, he served as an Anglican priest. How that happened is in details I don't have.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 09:33:58 PM
The ROCOR vicarate had more questionable receptions beyond the unfortunate former-Fr. Nathan.

For example, when discussing a certain WRV mission with a priest I respect, he told me to avoid it because the priest attached to the mission:

-Was chrismated an Antiochian convert
-Was ordained an ER Antiochian priest
-Got divorced
-Apostatized to Continuing Anglicanism; got ordained
-Got remarried
-Left Anglicanism to be baptized in the former Milan synod (which has since splintered), rejecting his former Orthodox chrismation
-Was ordained in the Milan synod as part of its WR project
-Was received into ROCOR's WRV despite the fact that a number of clergy from the Antiochians and other jurisdictions wrote ROCOR asking them not to receive him as a priest for the reasons listed above.

If this is correct, then the vicarate really did need to get its house in order. A WR vicarate should not be an end-run for those who cannot (or would not, in Fr. Nathan's case) be canonically received by other jurisdictions.

At very least a real canonical structure with clear guidelines for the reception of clergy and parishes needs to be in place if the WR is going to flourish. (The issue of liturgies also needs to be addressed, as others have said, but that is secondary at the moment.)

Only one part of that doesn't ring true to me. A Continuing Anglican church recognizes Orthodox orders; such would not have reordained him. Do you simply mean he served as a priest with them?
How good are the Continuing Anglicans at observing their canons?  PECUSA isn't so good.

Of course, for that we assUme that he told the CA that he had been a priest.  It doesn't seem like honesty, if what is presented here stands correct, was his strong point.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 09:35:44 PM
People who want to follow the rites of the western church
should suck it up and head to the real west and let the real east alone.  Hybridism and liturgical archeologist need to get resl.

Which "real West"?  Anglicanism?  Roman Catholicism of the "Ordinary Form"?  Roman Catholicism of the "Extraordinary Form"?  Anglican Ordinariates?  Does it work in reverse?  Do the Eastern Catholics have to "suck it up" and head to the "real East" and leave the West alone?   

At some point, it has to be about the faith. 
Hey, we'll trade our WR in exchange for their EC.  lol
Not so sure about that.  A number of their EC suffer from Spitting East Syndrome.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 09:37:52 PM
To me the ROCOR WR situation hasn't been proven dead, despite all the posting, hysteria, and quoting of the ukaz. What's the situation on the ground? What of the Benedictines, who predate the Vicariate by decades in ROCOR?

Nevertheless, the fact remains that some WR parishes have been ordered to become Byzantine-Rite. (Btw, has anyone noticed that some people are describing that order as "uniatism" despite the fact that WRO are already Orthodox? Weird.)
The difference makes some people uncomfortable. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 15, 2013, 09:46:34 PM
I found out several months ago I literally lived about five minutes away from a ROCOR WR mission for several years without even knowing it existed. I guess it's a former Anglican(?) priest who appears to have built himself a house chapel in his basement. The ROCOR website claims his congregation to be less than ten, though from the looks of his website, that may be an overstatement. There is another pretty active WR congregation (Antiochian) about twenty minutes away, whose priest (a former Lutheran, I think) regularly participates in local pan-Orthodox services (usually in his WR vestments) and is known to many. Yet the ROCOR mission remains rather mysterious.

I find the whole thing quite strange.

I love my ROCOR WR brothers and sisters, but there is quite a lot about their whole...I don't even know what to call it, "collective mentality" that I find very strange indeed. Spend enough time in the Occidentalis Yahoo group where many of them congregate, and you'll get a sense of what I mean. I'm sure Antioch has its share of this, but I've never experienced it.

And I can't help but think a lot of this has to do with their movement away from reintegrating Western catholic liturgical life with Orthodoxy towards an attempt to recreate the past. When your mindset is one of rejection, it would seem you can't help but attract people that have negative, puritanical, even fundamentalist attitudes. And when you can't accept the simple resuming of the living Western tradition, you open the floodgates towards DIY liturgy, each personal notion of what true "western orthodoxy" is supposed to be given equal footing resulting in strange things like a 5th c. French liturgy on the plains of Iowa. What is the connection?

I really don't mean to disparage them and I wish the RWRV nothing but the best, honestly. I hope they emerge from this situation stronger and headed in the right direction. But I think more than a shuffling of certain individuals will need to take place.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 09:54:16 PM
To me the ROCOR WR situation hasn't been proven dead, despite all the posting, hysteria, and quoting of the ukaz. What's the situation on the ground? What of the Benedictines, who predate the Vicariate by decades in ROCOR?

Nevertheless, the fact remains that some WR parishes have been ordered to become Byzantine-Rite. (Btw, has anyone noticed that some people are describing that order as "uniatism" despite the fact that WRO are already Orthodox? Weird.)
The difference makes some people uncomfortable. 

Sometimes I get the impression that some people can't accept that there can be more than one kind of wrong. They hear of something wrong occurring wrt WRO, and assume it must be uniatism.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 10:00:06 PM
If this is correct, then the vicarate really did need to get its house in order.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that everyone agrees with the ROCOR to disallow any new WR ordinations. But I don't see any way to justify forcing WR parishes to abandon WR.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 15, 2013, 10:02:19 PM
People who want to follow the rites of the western church
should suck it up and head to the real west and let the real east alone.  Hybridism and liturgical archeologist need to get resl.

Which "real West"?  Anglicanism?  Roman Catholicism of the "Ordinary Form"?  Roman Catholicism of the "Extraordinary Form"?  Anglican Ordinariates?  Does it work in reverse?  Do the Eastern Catholics have to "suck it up" and head to the "real East" and leave the West alone?   

At some point, it has to be about the faith. 

Indeed, I was just thinking that "head to the real west and let the real east alone" is just as bad as those Orthodox who say that Eastern Catholics aren't really Eastern since we aren't Orthodox.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 10:16:04 PM
I found out several months ago I literally lived about five minutes away from a ROCOR WR mission for several years without even knowing it existed. I guess it's a former Anglican(?) priest who appears to have built himself a house chapel in his basement. The ROCOR website claims his congregation to be less than ten, though from the looks of his website, that may be an overstatement. There is another pretty active WR congregation (Antiochian) about twenty minutes away, whose priest (a former Lutheran, I think) regularly participates in local pan-Orthodox services (usually in his WR vestments) and is known to many. Yet the ROCOR mission remains rather mysterious.

I find the whole thing quite strange.

I love my ROCOR WR brothers and sisters, but there is quite a lot about their whole...I don't even know what to call it, "collective mentality" that I find very strange indeed. Spend enough time in the Occidentalis Yahoo group where many of them congregate, and you'll get a sense of what I mean. I'm sure Antioch has its share of this, but I've never experienced it.

And I can't help but think a lot of this has to do with their movement away from reintegrating Western catholic liturgical life with Orthodoxy towards an attempt to recreate the past. When your mindset is one of rejection, it would seem you can't help but attract people that have negative, puritanical, even fundamentalist attitudes. And when you can't accept the simple resuming of the living Western tradition, you open the floodgates towards DIY liturgy, each personal notion of what true "western orthodoxy" is supposed to be given equal footing resulting in strange things like a 5th c. French liturgy on the plains of Iowa. What is the connection?

I really don't mean to disparage them and I wish the RWRV nothing but the best, honestly. I hope they emerge from this situation stronger and headed in the right direction. But I think more than a shuffling of certain individuals will need to take place.
I just had personal contact with the congregation in Iowa two weeks ago.  If they expected this, they hid it very well.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ICXCNIKA on July 15, 2013, 11:39:19 PM
Don't we have Western Rite Clergy on this forum that can maybe clear up any misconceptions or doubts we may have?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Aristobolus on July 16, 2013, 12:40:54 AM
"Can't we all just get along".
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: mike on July 16, 2013, 06:51:20 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: arimethea on July 16, 2013, 09:10:59 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priest. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 16, 2013, 09:29:41 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priest. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

Yes.  I suspect Met Philip would not be overly excited about getting this mess dumped in his lap.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 16, 2013, 09:45:30 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

Too many clergy and too few parishioners is a sign of vagante pathology it seems the ROCOR WRV had.

Quote
Don't we have Western Rite Clergy on this forum that can maybe clear up any misconceptions or doubts we may have?

byzcath has Fr David Straut of ROCOR (http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/396791/Re_Rocor_western_rite_dissappe#Post396791), who says they're not killing their WR, just cleaning house after the lapse in discipline, which was a real problem (again, Nathan Monk). Though he might not be WR (I don't know), he's in a position to say.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 16, 2013, 09:52:35 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 16, 2013, 10:06:09 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

My guess is no. Besides the usual cast of vagante priest wannabes (Nathan Monk), they probably had people very emotionally invested in their idea of pre-schism Western rites or non-romanized Anglican services. The stern Russians gave them a free hand, since they had anti-Romanism in common.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 16, 2013, 10:47:31 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

My guess is no. Besides the usual cast of vagante priest wannabes (Nathan Monk), they probably had people very emotionally invested in their idea of pre-schism Western rites or non-romanized Anglican services. The stern Russians gave them a free hand, since they had anti-Romanism in common.
No, they had more in common than the opposition to the Vatican.  At least the ones I know.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 16, 2013, 11:04:05 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

This.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 16, 2013, 11:08:16 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

My guess is no. Besides the usual cast of vagante priest wannabes (Nathan Monk), they probably had people very emotionally invested in their idea of pre-schism Western rites or non-romanized Anglican services. The stern Russians gave them a free hand, since they had anti-Romanism in common.
No, they had more in common than the opposition to the Vatican.  At least the ones I know.

I would assume that TYF didn't mean that was the only thing they had in common.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: BasilCan on July 17, 2013, 02:02:46 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil

Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 17, 2013, 02:16:54 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 17, 2013, 02:17:32 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil



Sounds like a good plan.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Maria on July 17, 2013, 02:30:11 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.

That is the way to go.

Mentoring is important, but the priest chosen to mentor must be exemplary.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 17, 2013, 03:14:08 PM
Though still somewhat vague, it appears ROCOR WR will not yet be going anywhere:

http://rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 17, 2013, 03:32:06 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.

Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

 ???
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 17, 2013, 03:40:56 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.

Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

 ???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 17, 2013, 03:54:41 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.

Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

 ???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).

By "the stubborn minority" do you mean they were stubborn b/c they didn't want to 'dox, or because they didn't want to let go of the building?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 17, 2013, 04:04:39 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.

Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

 ???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).

By "the stubborn minority" do you mean they were stubborn b/c they didn't want to 'dox, or because they didn't want to let go of the building?
both.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 17, 2013, 05:08:26 PM
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil


More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.

Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

 ???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).

By "the stubborn minority" do you mean they were stubborn b/c they didn't want to 'dox, or because they didn't want to let go of the building?
both.

Thanks for clarifying.

I guess I'm stubborn too. :)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 17, 2013, 09:05:09 PM
Though still somewhat vague, it appears ROCOR WR will not yet be going anywhere:

http://rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf

And the ROCOR WRV Facebook page:

Quote
His Eminence, +Metropolitan Hilarion. has published a decree confirming the continuing stavropegial status of Western Rite communities in the ROCOR.

http://www.rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf

I thought, based on what people in this thread said, Christminster was stavropegial but the Vicariate itself was not? Or does this comment mean that the Vicariate will continue as stavropegial from now on?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: mike on July 18, 2013, 12:35:29 AM
I thought, based on what people in this thread said, Christminster was stavropegial but the Vicariate itself was not? Or does this comment mean that the Vicariate will continue as stavropegial from now on?

Vicariate was stavropigial since Bp Jerome wasn't a dioceasan bishop.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nigula Qian Zishi on July 18, 2013, 07:09:43 PM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 18, 2013, 09:42:30 PM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  >:(
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheMathematician on July 18, 2013, 10:16:52 PM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  >:(

The Serbs in Buffalo takes part, as does ROCOR in the pan orthodox vespers during lent
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: serb1389 on July 18, 2013, 10:28:37 PM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  >:(

We can't help that we're the best jurisdiction in the US ;) :o
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 18, 2013, 10:36:48 PM
Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 18, 2013, 10:41:48 PM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  >:(

We can't help that we're the best jurisdiction in the US ;) :o
:laugh:
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 19, 2013, 12:05:19 AM
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.

Amen.

I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.

I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Shanghaiski on July 19, 2013, 12:25:21 AM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  >:(

We can't help that we're the best jurisdiction in the US ;) :o

The world, Father, the world. If it hadn't been for St. Milutin putting the fear of God into John V, we'd all be kissing the papal ring and singing kumbaya with cardinals. The Serbs were anti-union with Rome before it was cool.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 19, 2013, 09:37:55 AM
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm

I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 19, 2013, 09:41:28 AM
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm

I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: spyridon on July 19, 2013, 10:21:05 AM
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm

I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree.

+1
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Elisha on July 19, 2013, 10:42:00 AM
Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.

(not directing this at you specifically)

ISTM that the degree an Orthodox parish (mostly focused on those parishes that are mostly "ethnic", which would likely be most) is willing to be "pan" has much to do with how well the parishoners themselves integrate into American society by way of speaking English and non-Orthodox people they socialize/work with.  Ok, did thus just sound too stupidly obvious now?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 10:52:59 AM
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

But I could be wrong: has it ever happened before and I missed the backlash?       
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 19, 2013, 11:04:27 AM
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

But I could be wrong: has it ever happened before and I missed the backlash?

As far as I know it's never happened.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 19, 2013, 11:07:14 AM
I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

Pretty much how I feel, except I'd include the Maronites as well to make it less of a "Catholic vs Orthodox" issue. If a Maronite parish voluntarily became Roman Rite that's fine, but this half-and-half stuff that seems to be rampant in most of their parishes is unfortunate to say the least.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 19, 2013, 11:08:28 AM
Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.

(not directing this at you specifically)

ISTM that the degree an Orthodox parish (mostly focused on those parishes that are mostly "ethnic", which would likely be most) is willing to be "pan" has much to do with how well the parishioners themselves integrate into American society by way of speaking English and non-Orthodox people they socialize/work with.  Ok, did thus just sound too stupidly obvious now?

There's the rub. The younger generations leave when that happens, when they Americanize, no longer speaking the old language (happens naturally by the third generation in America for almost everyone) and marrying outside the ethnicity. Parishes of third, etc. generation ethnics, Americans, could be 'pan' while retaining their ethnic flavor but it seems most such Orthodox don't practice Orthodoxy anymore.

Ditto American Eastern Catholics only more of them become Roman Catholic.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 19, 2013, 11:14:38 AM
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

But I could be wrong: has it ever happened before and I missed the backlash?       

So, you're saying that the change kijabeboy03 mentioned is only acceptable because it's a complete switch?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 19, 2013, 11:21:40 AM
Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.

(not directing this at you specifically)

ISTM that the degree an Orthodox parish (mostly focused on those parishes that are mostly "ethnic", which would likely be most) is willing to be "pan" has much to do with how well the parishioners themselves integrate into American society by way of speaking English and non-Orthodox people they socialize/work with.  Ok, did thus just sound too stupidly obvious now?

There's the rub. The younger generations leave when that happens, when they Americanize, no longer speaking the old language (happens naturally by the third generation in America for almost everyone) and marrying outside the ethnicity. Parishes of third, etc. generation ethnics, Americans, could be 'pan' while retaining their ethnic flavor but it seems most such Orthodox don't practice Orthodoxy anymore.

Ditto American Eastern Catholics only more of them become Roman Catholic.
My old parish, SS. Peter and Paul, fits  that description-I know fourth generation, and they are still around.
I also know those who left in the second generation, and came back in the third for the funeral of the first, and then brought the second back in.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 19, 2013, 11:32:23 AM
Some, not many, third, etc. generation people are still around.

Minority rites in practice don't do well on either side but they're possible. In practice most Eastern Catholics are self-latinized, basically Roman Riters with an altered version of their original rites, but in theory they're supposed to be liturgically and in theological expression just like their original churches while being wholly Catholic in doctrine, showing the Orthodox that it's possible. Of course the Orthodox don't agree. Likewise, in reverse, Western Rite Orthodoxy. There's the AWRV's traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. Again some spontaneous adoption of the dominant rite's trappings (icons everywhere, 'khouria' or 'matushka'); some of that going back to when they were Episcopalians. The consciously un-Catholic ROCOR WR is different, often heavily byzantinized, or a kind of non-Anglo-Catholic high Anglicanism. ROCOR exists to preserve 19th-century Russian culture; I don't think they're a good fit for a Western Rite.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 11:47:46 AM
So, you're saying that the change kijabeboy03 mentioned is only acceptable because it's a complete switch?

When I read the article he linked to, it wasn't clear to me that it was a Western rite parish going Byzantine rite; nothing in the article suggested that to me, I thought it was a parish going from one jurisdiction (RWVR) to another (EA Diocese).  Only checking the parish website confirmed it for me.  

Personally, it doesn't matter to me so much if they decide to change rites as long as they do so comprehensively.  I don't know their history to know how solidly "in the West" they were, will they make the switch in an organic, healthy way, etc., but assuming the best from people, if they want it (as opposed to it being imposed from without) and can do it well (preserving the integrity of the rite's liturgy, spirituality, etc.), I don't see an issue other than the loss of one parish of a fledgling WR movement to the already dominant BR.  I'm not invested in "Orthodoxy" becoming a multi-ritual Church--it already is, and I'm already there.  What I care more about is that people don't take a rite and start tinkering with it in the name of making it work better for them without a solid understanding of the rite as it has been handed down.  That happens all the time, in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism, and I hate it.

So yes, if they're going to switch, let them switch completely.  If they want to go from WR to BR, let them adopt the full Byzantine rite as received by their mother Church, ROCOR.  Let them accept what is handed down to them, not take it and screw around with it until they like it.  Liturgy is supposed to transform us, not just or not simply the other way around.  And the same goes for Eastern Catholics.  If they want to be Eastern, they should be Eastern--not majority Eastern with some Latin flavour.  Whether that Latin flavour is self-imposed or Vatican-imposed, we know why it's there.  Insofar as theology is intimately linked with liturgy, I can see why some would argue that Eastern = Orthodox, Western = Catholic, and anything less doesn't work; whether or not one agrees with them, certainly at the basic level of the rites one can appreciate that an Eastern Catholic Church with Latinizations appears to be boutique religion.  And the Catholics are not the only ones guilty of "boutique religion".  

Just my opinion.                
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 19, 2013, 12:41:55 PM
...certainly at the basic level of the rites one can appreciate that an Eastern Catholic Church with Latinizations appears to be boutique religion.  And the Catholics are not the only ones guilty of "boutique religion".

I don't think we mean the same thing by boutique religion. Witness old-school, 1930s Greek Catholicism among Slavs, whence ACROD came. Somebody from one of the founding ACROD families explained: church was part of po-nashomu ('our way'); over the centuries it accumulated lots of Western Catholic things (monsignors, First Communion, bination, etc.) but didn't see itself as strongly Catholic. There was no shopping for a religion in an eastern Slovakian village; you had the Greek Catholic parish or you stayed home. The opposite of a boutique religion, a natural one, for those people, at that time. (Which is why ACROD kept those things for many years: they didn't miss the Catholic Church; they just wanted to remain po-nashomu, to be left alone and for things to stay the same, the whole reason they switched. They had a point: the split never should have happened, wasn't about theology, and was our own churchmen's fault.)

Boutique religions: Westerners such as Americans turning anti-Western, adopting a fundamentalist version of Eastern Orthodoxy of course different from cradles' approach (they're cut off from their roots, utterly foreign to cradles), or, the ROCOR WR way, inventing rites and claiming they're pre-schism (no roots in the culture, no living tradition, tiny boutique following, like a hobby church).
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 02:36:09 PM
I don't think we mean the same thing by boutique religion. Witness old-school, 1930s Greek Catholicism among Slavs, whence ACROD came. Somebody from one of the founding ACROD families explained: church was part of po-nashomu ('our way'); over the centuries it accumulated lots of Western Catholic things (monsignors, First Communion, bination, etc.) but didn't see itself as strongly Catholic. There was no shopping for a religion in an eastern Slovakian village; you had the Greek Catholic parish or you stayed home. The opposite of a boutique religion, a natural one, for those people, at that time. (Which is why ACROD kept those things for many years: they didn't miss the Catholic Church; they just wanted to remain po-nashomu, to be left alone and for things to stay the same, the whole reason they switched. They had a point: the split never should have happened, wasn't about theology, and was our own churchmen's fault.)

Perhaps we do have different definitions of boutique religion.  I simply mean subjectively picking and choosing. 

I'm not an expert in "old-school, 1930s Greek Catholicism among Slavs", so I can't speak to that situation.  As you describe it, it seems like an organic development, albeit in certain arguably wrong directions (e.g., "bination").  If an organic development, it may not have the negative connotation I associate with boutique religion, but it is still a fact that a number of those things compromised the rite (if not in its liturgics, then in its underlying theology and spirituality).  If post-Vatican II Eastern Catholics still heartily maintain those things, in spite of the Vatican wanting them to "return to their roots", then I think boutique religion applies--nothing is stopping them from such a return.  But if it's more a matter of their "insecurity" in doing so, that's a different matter entirely.  Of course, they could always just tell the Vatican and the Orthodox to buzz off and let them live the tradition they received their way, "warts" and all, but is anyone doing that?  It seems that their identity is always posited in relation to the Church of Rome or to the Orthodox.       

Quote
Boutique religions: Westerners such as Americans turning anti-Western, adopting a fundamentalist version of Eastern Orthodoxy of course different from cradles' approach (they're cut off from their roots, utterly foreign to cradles), or, the ROCOR WR way, inventing rites and claiming they're pre-schism (no roots in the culture, no living tradition, tiny boutique following, like a hobby church).

May I take this opportunity, with respect, to tell you that I always smile when I read your posts: your views are, IMO, "peculiar".  :P

"Inventing rites and claiming they're pre-schism", if that is in fact what the WR of ROCOR was doing, would fit my own ideas of boutique religion--on that we would agree.  But American converts turning into fundamentalists is not boutique religion to me.  Those people embrace a theoretical construct of what Orthodoxy is or ought to be based on what they've studied, with no connection to the living community or without proper "mentoring", and think they are doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong.  That's Protestantism: the rejection/lack of connection to the living community of believers, the Church, in favour of some intellectual idea.  Such people have switched affiliations, but haven't converted: I think those people are crazy or misled.  But they're usually "ritually pure".     
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 19, 2013, 03:11:44 PM
Those people embrace a theoretical construct of what Orthodoxy is or ought to be based on what they've studied, with no connection to the living community or without proper "mentoring", and think they are doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong.    

That's more or less what converts are usually encouraged to do. Go to the church, don't watch porn, observe the fasts and the like that normal folks doesn't normally do.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 03:16:28 PM
LOL, where do you go to church?  :P
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 19, 2013, 03:21:44 PM
LOL, where do you go to church?  :P

(http://helsinkippusa.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/uspenski.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 04:49:09 PM
And the normal folk parishioners there watch porn and don't fast?  Nothing new under the sun, I guess.  :)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 19, 2013, 04:57:53 PM
or, the ROCOR WR way, inventing rites and claiming they're pre-schism (no roots in the culture, no living tradition, tiny boutique following, like a hobby church).

If have often been amused that the proponents of this approach often self-apply the term "traditionalist" when they are the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 19, 2013, 06:42:37 PM
I don't think we mean the same thing by boutique religion. Witness old-school, 1930s Greek Catholicism among Slavs, whence ACROD came. Somebody from one of the founding ACROD families explained: church was part of po-nashomu ('our way'); over the centuries it accumulated lots of Western Catholic things (monsignors, First Communion, bination, etc.) but didn't see itself as strongly Catholic. There was no shopping for a religion in an eastern Slovakian village; you had the Greek Catholic parish or you stayed home. The opposite of a boutique religion, a natural one, for those people, at that time. (Which is why ACROD kept those things for many years: they didn't miss the Catholic Church; they just wanted to remain po-nashomu, to be left alone and for things to stay the same, the whole reason they switched. They had a point: the split never should have happened, wasn't about theology, and was our own churchmen's fault.)

Perhaps we do have different definitions of boutique religion.  I simply mean subjectively picking and choosing. 

I'm not an expert in "old-school, 1930s Greek Catholicism among Slavs", so I can't speak to that situation.  As you describe it, it seems like an organic development, albeit in certain arguably wrong directions (e.g., "bination").  If an organic development, it may not have the negative connotation I associate with boutique religion, but it is still a fact that a number of those things compromised the rite (if not in its liturgics, then in its underlying theology and spirituality).  If post-Vatican II Eastern Catholics still heartily maintain those things, in spite of the Vatican wanting them to "return to their roots", then I think boutique religion applies--nothing is stopping them from such a return. 

Well, I'd say the Vatican has for many years been telling both Eastern Catholics (Byzantine and otherwise) and Western Catholics to be true to their roots ... but in some circles, only the message to ECs seems to be noticed.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 08:29:01 PM
Well, I'd say the Vatican has for many years been telling both Eastern Catholics (Byzantine and otherwise) and Western Catholics to be true to their roots ... but in some circles, only the message to ECs seems to be noticed.

Presuming you're right, I'd argue that's because only the EC's get the message of "returning" and becoming more "authentic".  Where are Western Catholics being encouraged to do the same?  Since Vatican II, "reform" has been all the rage, and any calls to "return" or be more "authentic" are relative to how far down the road "reform" has gone.  At this point, you have to work on stopping the insanity before you can work on being "authentic".  It's not the same. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 19, 2013, 09:12:26 PM
Well, I'd say the Vatican has for many years been telling both Eastern Catholics (Byzantine and otherwise) and Western Catholics to be true to their roots ... but in some circles, only the message to ECs seems to be noticed.

Presuming you're right, I'd argue that's because only the EC's get the message of "returning" and becoming more "authentic".  Where are Western Catholics being encouraged to do the same? 

Remember Pope Benedict XVI? 

;)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 19, 2013, 09:24:41 PM
...certainly at the basic level of the rites one can appreciate that an Eastern Catholic Church with Latinizations appears to be boutique religion.  And the Catholics are not the only ones guilty of "boutique religion".

I don't think we mean the same thing by boutique religion. Witness old-school, 1930s Greek Catholicism among Slavs, whence ACROD came. Somebody from one of the founding ACROD families explained: church was part of po-nashomu ('our way'); over the centuries it accumulated lots of Western Catholic things (monsignors, First Communion, bination, etc.) but didn't see itself as strongly Catholic. There was no shopping for a religion in an eastern Slovakian village; you had the Greek Catholic parish or you stayed home. The opposite of a boutique religion, a natural one, for those people, at that time. (Which is why ACROD kept those things for many years: they didn't miss the Catholic Church; they just wanted to remain po-nashomu, to be left alone and for things to stay the same, the whole reason they switched. They had a point: the split never should have happened, wasn't about theology, and was our own churchmen's fault.)

Boutique religions: Westerners such as Americans turning anti-Western, adopting a fundamentalist version of Eastern Orthodoxy of course different from cradles' approach (they're cut off from their roots, utterly foreign to cradles), or, the ROCOR WR way, inventing rites and claiming they're pre-schism (no roots in the culture, no living tradition, tiny boutique following, like a hobby church).
bination?

And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 09:26:58 PM
Well, I'd say the Vatican has for many years been telling both Eastern Catholics (Byzantine and otherwise) and Western Catholics to be true to their roots ... but in some circles, only the message to ECs seems to be noticed.

Presuming you're right, I'd argue that's because only the EC's get the message of "returning" and becoming more "authentic".  Where are Western Catholics being encouraged to do the same? 

Remember Pope Benedict XVI? 

;)

Sure, I remember him.  But do the Roman Catholics remember him?  That's what really matters.   
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 19, 2013, 09:28:00 PM

bination?

One priest celebrating two Liturgies in one day. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 19, 2013, 10:01:51 PM
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm

I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree.

+1

+2
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Deacon Lance on July 19, 2013, 10:17:09 PM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 19, 2013, 11:08:55 PM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 19, 2013, 11:30:00 PM
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?

The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm

I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".

I agree.

+1

+2
+3
I agree
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Saint_Alexis_of_Wilkes-Barre.jpg)
suck it up
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/John_Ireland_%28archbishop_of_Saint_Paul%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Deacon Lance on July 20, 2013, 08:24:01 AM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 20, 2013, 09:21:22 AM
The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: LBK on July 20, 2013, 09:39:02 AM
The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.

Don't be too smug. History shows many a religious group choosing (or being forced) to leave their homeland for elsewhere in the name of religious freedom. The Huguenots are just one well-known example, emigrating to an assortment of countries. A less well-known group are the Prussian Lutherans of the 1830s-1840s, who settled in southern Australia.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 20, 2013, 09:45:45 AM
The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.

Don't be too smug. History shows many a religious group choosing (or being forced) to leave their homeland for elsewhere in the name of religious freedom. The Huguenots are just one well-known example, emigrating to an assortment of countries. A less well-known group are the Prussian Lutherans of the 1830s-1840s, who settled in southern Australia.

In that sense, I agree.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 20, 2013, 11:00:07 AM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.

It was the arrogant stupidity of the mostly Irish American hierarchy who couldn't stand the dirty folks from East Europe and their "bizarre"customs and their craven enablers in Rome within the Curia who probably knew better in their hearts, but valued counting (both souls and money) above honesty. It was ironic as for two generations before the Slavs arrived "No Irish need Apply"  was common across the North American continent.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 12:28:42 PM
The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.
(http://commons.orthodoxwiki.org/images/d/dc/Alexei_%28Kabaliuk%29_of_Carpathia2.jpg)
although he came to America after converting in Russia, and being convicted of the crime of Orthodoxy in hungary.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 01:46:31 PM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.
Not at all. Ever.
First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.
You're the one who said the absolute "all", not I, Deacon.

Nor did was the American community being immediately referenced: the story was in reply to Young Fogey's "There was no shopping for a religion in an eastern Slovakian village; you had the Greek Catholic parish or you stayed home."  In the 1930's Met. St. Gorazd had already brought back enough in Slovakia and Subcarpathia that the Western Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia went East with their union with them in the Church of Czechoslovakia (now the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia):

Quote
Czechoslovak Bishop Visits United States
Bishop Gorazd Pavlik. of the new Czechoslovak Church, is in this country, where he has been attending the Episcopalian convention at Portland, Ore. The bishop spent several weeks In New York conducting services in the Church of the Heavenly Rest each Sunday for the Czechoslovaks of the city. One evening he addressed a large audience of Czechoslovaks at Jan Hus Presbyterian church and explained the aims and purpose of the new church of the home land. While the Czechoslovak Church still employs the old ceremonies—very similar to those of the Roman Catholic Church—it conducts them in the language of the people and also gives the Bible to the people. In the last two years 125,000 Bibles have been distributed to the members of the church. Over 800.000 people have Joined it, and accessions are being received at the rate of 1,000 a day. The leaders of the church are working hard for the separation of church and state, and are suffering much persecution from the Roman Catholics, but Bishop Pavlik is remarkably tolerant and generous in his attitude toward his church's enemies, and is a wise and Christian statesman in an important place.
http://books.google.com/books?id=e3ZPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1283&dq=Gorazd+Pavlik&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pMjqUbzpCMKVrgGop4CYBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gorazd%20Pavlik&f=false
The Interior, October 12, 1922.
Quote
End of the Bohemian Schism.
The "National Church" of CzechoSlovaka, sectarian offspring of the 1918 Revolution, is fast approaching its end. It has lived for five years. A part of this sect has given up entirely the hopes once entertained of forming a separate ecclesiastical institution, and, under the leadership of "Bishop" Gorazd Pavlik, has affiliated with the Serbian Orthodox body.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YGTQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA507&dq=Gorazd+Pavlik&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3MnqUZioCYXXrQGEuYHYCA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Gorazd%20Pavlik&f=false
Annals of Saint Joseph June 1924
Quote
In Czechoslovakia the Orthodox Church springs from three different causes.  The first was an attempt by Sladovsky and Gregr in 1863 to alienate the Czechs from the Roman Catholic Church in the belief that such conversion would improve the political status of the people.  Needless to say it showed but meager results. However, after the War, this faction was vitalized by the Orthodox converts, who accepted the teachings of this Church in Russia. Its Bishop, Savaty-Vra-bec, was ordained by the Patriarch of Constantinople.  Russinia supplies the second current of Orthodoxy. Here it has had a long history as at one time it was the popular religion. Its 80 parishes have between 80,000 and 110,000 adherents. The third cause of introduction of Orthodoxy is the seperation of the priests from the Roman Catholic Church after the War and formation of the Czechoslovak Church. This Orthodox faction is found mainly in Moravia and its leader is Bishop Gorazd-Pavlik. It is expected that this group "will formally leave the Czechoslovak Church and join the Orthodox Church. Since there can be only one Orthodox Church in the Republic, it is necessary, in conformity with the agreements between Jugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, to affect a consolidation of all factions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AgQdAAAAMAAJ&q=%22In+Czechoslovakia+the+Orthodox+Church+springs+from+three+different+causes%22&dq=%22In+Czechoslovakia+the+Orthodox+Church+springs+from+three+different+causes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ec3qUZ_JAoWTqgHb-4CIDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
The Czechoslovak Review 1923
(http://www.ortodoksi.net/images/thumb/0/0d/Gorazd_pavlik01.jpg/250px-Gorazd_pavlik01.jpg)
Holy Hierarch and Neo-Martyr Gorazd, pray for us!

The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.
Facts are stubborn things.  Ruin many a narrative, not just the Vatican's and their hanger-on-ers.
They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.
Some things never change.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 01:50:21 PM
The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.
well, in that case, Truth is stranger than fiction.

Of course, many of them just went over the border to the Russian Empire or, if they wanted/needed/were required to stay in Austria Hungary, in order to convert without harassment.  Some just converted and stayed put.  They form the majority now in the dark brown (the light brown is the Vatican's flock that they left) in Slovakia today:
(http://www.pitt.edu/~votruba/qsonhist/assets/relig1991300.gif)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 20, 2013, 02:34:48 PM
We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 20, 2013, 02:43:17 PM
Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

They have a non-Russian autocephalous Orthodox church there and Orthodoxy is still equated with Russian chauvinism?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 20, 2013, 02:49:52 PM
Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

They have a non-Russian autocephalous Orthodox church there and Orthodoxy is still equated with Russian chauvinism?

Yep...the struggle not to be the "Russian" Orthodox of Slovakia has been difficult, as Russians can be one of two things... deeply spiritual and embracing.. or "the Borg" of Othodoxy, assimilating other cultures in their wake. It really is a love/hate thing... we deal with it constantly...
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 20, 2013, 02:51:10 PM
Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 02:59:05 PM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.
Well, it was rationalized rather quickly.  Fr. Semkoff arrived in 1912, his draft registration in 1917 lists him as a Russian Orthodox priest, as does the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1917
http://books.google.com/books?id=RZw9AAAAYAAJ&q=Semkoff+Peter&dq=Semkoff+Peter&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fdXqUbG1MM-zrgHPpYGACg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg
although the 1920 shows him being a "Greek Catholic Priest"-that might be because of the title "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic," as he is listed as Pastor of Ascension Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in Albion Michigan in the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1928.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9E3OAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&dq=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3NnqUe2oCe7KyQG_h4CICA&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
The census of 1930 shows his occupation as "Russian Orthodox Priest."
(I learned the above census info. etc. from someone doing Rusyn genealogy and was looking for information).

This might be of interest: "The Austro-German hypocrisy and the Russian orthodox Greek catholic church" published in 1915 by Peter G. Kohanik, Russian Orthodox Catholic Mutual Aid Society of the United States of America
http://books.google.com/books?id=7f81AAAAMAAJ&q=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&dq=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNvqUaylFcaUrgHZ8oGgBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg

In the last of Fr. Semkoff's 5 parishes that he founded, SS. Peter and Paul of Chicago, I met numbers of people whose forebares in America returned home to Orthodoxy, as did their relatives in Czechoslovakia (at the time united) separately.

Please note: I did not say he came to America to become Orthodox. Quite the opposite, he was shocked at what his bishop told him.  If the genealogy records are correct, he came to NYC with his father (at time he was a teenager, according to the records.  It was never mentioned to me how young he was when he was ordained).  At first he did not follow the bishop's advice, but like St. Alexis, he learned fast.  And worked fast-in just two decades, he led a number back to Orthodoxy to found five parishes in three states for the Russian Metropolia.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 20, 2013, 02:59:37 PM
Are you a Slovak?

I've generally thought of podkarpatska as an American. (Not that you should go by me.  8))
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 20, 2013, 03:07:47 PM
Are you a Slovak?

I've generally thought of podkarpatska as an American. (Not that you should go by me.  8))

Well yes of course but AFAIK Americans seem to also have fairly strong non-American identity based on their non-American familyline.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 03:19:49 PM
Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.
LOL. A little ialmisry lead for an avatar and jurisdiction, and Ramstein for a byline.

That's a good question. To be honest, having dealt with a lot of them (and the related OCA) in the US and (Czecho)Slovakia, I haven't see a consensus.  Which is perhaps showing.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 03:24:14 PM
Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

They have a non-Russian autocephalous Orthodox church there and Orthodoxy is still equated with Russian chauvinism?

Yep...the struggle not to be the "Russian" Orthodox of Slovakia has been difficult, as Russians can be one of two things... deeply spiritual and embracing.. or "the Borg" of Othodoxy, assimilating other cultures in their wake. It really is a love/hate thing... we deal with it constantly...
The most time I spent with the people in question was Fr. Semkoff and his parish.  They were all strongly Russophile, and yet were very definite that they were not "Great-Russians" (for lack of a better term) while strongly identifying with Russia.  They did/do not identify with Ukraine at all, but looked at (Czech)Slovakia as "the old country" and home while seemingly oblivious to the existence of Slovaks (I never heard them mentioned).

Sort of like the Southerners in the South (i.e. Dixie), once they have given up their separatism, and America.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 03:39:00 PM
We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.
I guess this must be the great OCA-ACROD divide.

I don't know how much I can say about Slovakia itself, as it was before Communism fell (but just before).  I didn't go to the Orthodox strongholds (as indicated on the map, based on religious self idnetification in 2000), but I did worship in Bratislava with the local Orthodox (and some soldiers from back East).  I don't think Deacon's coreligionists had a church in Bratislava at the time.

Shortly thereafter, after Communism fell and they government started seizing Orthodox properties to hand over to the Vatican, the people came back with videos on vacation of the folks back home celebrating Divine Liturgy on the lawns, rather to go pray with Deacon Lance's flock in the seized Church.

They haven't changed.  I did know one Romanian who decided he was Ruthenian (ethnically) and went to the Romanian "Church United with Rome Greek Catholic" parish in Chicago.  I'm not sure he ever went to Deacon Lance's church, a consolidated parish in Homer Glen-ironically, the core coming from St. Mary's, the parish that Fr. Peter Semkoff recruited to found SS. Peter and Paul parish, the home parish where not only I converted, but Abp. Job of blessed memory and Metropolitan Tikhon-Many Years!
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 20, 2013, 04:34:28 PM
Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.
LOL. A little ialmisry lead for an avatar and jurisdiction, and Ramstein for a byline.

That's a good question. To be honest, having dealt with a lot of them (and the related OCA) in the US and (Czecho)Slovakia, I haven't see a consensus.  Which is perhaps showing.
Maybe this will help:
RUSYNS OF THE CARPATHIANS: COMPETING AGENDAS OF IDENTITY
http://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/552816/WiktorekAlexandraChristine.pdf?sequence=1
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Orual on July 20, 2013, 05:00:33 PM
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.

Here is a documentary about two very ethnically-entrenched ROCOR parishes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb6ZLx0qPNY).
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Didymus on July 20, 2013, 05:42:50 PM
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: kijabeboy03 on July 21, 2013, 12:14:46 AM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.
Well, it was rationalized rather quickly.  Fr. Semkoff arrived in 1912, his draft registration in 1917 lists him as a Russian Orthodox priest, as does the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1917
http://books.google.com/books?id=RZw9AAAAYAAJ&q=Semkoff+Peter&dq=Semkoff+Peter&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fdXqUbG1MM-zrgHPpYGACg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg
although the 1920 shows him being a "Greek Catholic Priest"-that might be because of the title "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic," as he is listed as Pastor of Ascension Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in Albion Michigan in the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1928.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9E3OAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&dq=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3NnqUe2oCe7KyQG_h4CICA&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
The census of 1930 shows his occupation as "Russian Orthodox Priest."
(I learned the above census info. etc. from someone doing Rusyn genealogy and was looking for information).

This might be of interest: "The Austro-German hypocrisy and the Russian orthodox Greek catholic church" published in 1915 by Peter G. Kohanik, Russian Orthodox Catholic Mutual Aid Society of the United States of America
http://books.google.com/books?id=7f81AAAAMAAJ&q=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&dq=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNvqUaylFcaUrgHZ8oGgBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg

In the last of Fr. Semkoff's 5 parishes that he founded, SS. Peter and Paul of Chicago, I met numbers of people whose forebares in America returned home to Orthodoxy, as did their relatives in Czechoslovakia (at the time united) separately.

Please note: I did not say he came to America to become Orthodox. Quite the opposite, he was shocked at what his bishop told him.  If the genealogy records are correct, he came to NYC with his father (at time he was a teenager, according to the records.  It was never mentioned to me how young he was when he was ordained).  At first he did not follow the bishop's advice, but like St. Alexis, he learned fast.  And worked fast-in just two decades, he led a number back to Orthodoxy to found five parishes in three states for the Russian Metropolia.

Re the confusion over whether Fr. Semkoff was Greek Catholic in the '20s, if he was at the Albion parish at the time he was referred to as "Greek Catholic," then he was under the Russian Orthodox Metropolia - that parish was founded as an Orthodox parish primarily by Belorussians (with Greeks, Macedonians, Russians, and Ukrainians mixed in) and has always been with the Metropolia or OCA.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Kerdy on July 21, 2013, 12:21:23 AM
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 01:47:47 AM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.

+1.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 01:49:02 AM
And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.

It was the arrogant stupidity of the mostly Irish American hierarchy who couldn't stand the dirty folks from East Europe and their "bizarre"customs and their craven enablers in Rome within the Curia who probably knew better in their hearts, but valued counting (both souls and money) above honesty. It was ironic as for two generations before the Slavs arrived "No Irish need Apply"  was common across the North American continent.

+1. Your family was pushed out of the church for no good reason. I'm so sorry.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 01:55:31 AM
We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 01:57:21 AM
Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.

Greek Catholics in Slovakia = Ruthenian Catholics in America -> ACROD are Rusyns, East Slavs (related to Russians) closely related to Ukrainians but unlike them not nationalistic, never having been a nation-state, and whose immigration to America largely ended with WWI. Here they're Americans now.

Most (60%) of the OCA's Rusyn too (the characters in The Deer Hunter), having left Greek Catholicism because American Catholic bishops treated them badly, like ACROD, but about 30 years earlier, having joined the Russian church, being liturgically russified and often now identifying as Russian. In short, most American Russian Orthodox are indeed Slavs but not Russian.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 02:09:46 AM
I guess this must be the great OCA-ACROD divide.

It's that they're the same ethnic group, from the same place, but they converted about 30 years apart, one going under the Russian church and being russified; the other going under the Greeks, understandable after the Communist takeover of Russia, plus they just wanted things to stay the same, not to be russified. Since po-nashomu church as they knew it in eastern Slovakia was very Western Catholic, but they saw these things as theirs now, more than Catholic, ACROD remained very Greek Catholic-like for many years (the Greeks left them alone), while the Metropolia/OCA, long under Russian exile bishops, identifies as Russian. Meanwhile, in their Carpathian mountain homeland, Communism wiped out any russophilia.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 02:17:48 AM
A founder of this board's wife is from Slovakia, having come to America as a little girl, so he got to travel in Eastern Europe, including Transcarpathia, formerly far eastern Slovakia, the part of Ruthenia the Soviets grabbed during WWII and annexed to the Ukraine. He said that, unlike Slovaks, they thought Czechoslovakia was neat and wanted to go back to that. They're Greek Catholic and don't identify as Russian.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 21, 2013, 08:54:47 AM
We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.

I was going to add that, a fair number of Orthodox came to the states in 1968 ,the last (small) wave of immigration, including a number of priests looking for work.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 21, 2013, 08:57:34 AM
A founder of this board's wife is from Slovakia, having come to America as a little girl, so he got to travel in Eastern Europe, including Transcarpathia, formerly far eastern Slovakia, the part of Ruthenia the Soviets grabbed during WWII and annexed to the Ukraine. He said that, unlike Slovaks, they thought Czechoslovakia was neat and wanted to go back to that. They're Greek Catholic and don't identify as Russian.

True that the Rusyn areas were not in support of the division of Czechoslovakia in the 90s. But now, 20 years later, the Rusyn minority is more assimilated into Slovak society.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Sleeper on July 21, 2013, 09:51:32 AM
This has become the most boring thread imaginable. :police:
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 21, 2013, 10:36:08 AM
This has become the most boring thread imaginable. :police:
+1
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 21, 2013, 11:31:50 AM
One person's boredom can be fascinating to another.  ;)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 12:56:11 PM
One person's boredom can be fascinating to another.  ;)

Spent three years among Ruthenian Catholics and love 'em, besides of course getting acquainted with their cousins and other Slavs in Orthodoxy. I don't know a lot of prostopinije but I can sing Carju Nebesnyj, Amin', Hospodi Pomiluj, the Apostol, Otce Naš, and Dostojno Jest' to it.

Another name out there: Paul Magocsi, the historian of all things Rusyn, from sheepskin jackets to Easter-egg patterns to dialects, who ironically is neither Catholic nor Orthodox. The secondhand story I was told, reflecting the fights in the group in America: of course the Magocsis originally were Greek Catholic but his granddad argued with and threw out the Greek Catholic priest, and brought in an Orthodox priest. Then he argued with and threw out the Orthodox priest, all of which Magocsi is rather proud of. So Magocsi is nominally Protestant, a non-believer old enough to still habitually go to church; he goes to a mainline church because he likes the music. (I've met someone from a Ukrainian-American Methodist family; I once read somewhere there are more Ruthenian-American Methodists than Ruthenian-American Greek Catholics.)

Another, local story of the fluidity of Greek Catholic identity back in the day, before the Chornock split (ACROD) here and Communism in the old country hardened their Catholic identity (in 20 years I have never met a born Ruthenian Catholic who identified with the Orthodox). Holy Ghost, the first Eastern-rite parish of any kind in Philadelphia, 'doxed in 1912, of course to the Russian metropolia, but changed their mind the next year and are still Catholic. Some parishioners didn't want to go back and started Assumption a few blocks away, now in the OCA (interestingly they didn't 100% russify; you can still hear prostopinije mixed with the standard OCA Russian music). Both parishes are hurting. The second-generation majority have died; the third generation moved away; the old Slavic neighborhood, once an enclave in Italian South Philly, is now a black (probably Protestant) ghetto literally overshadowed by high-rise projects.

Then in America there was arguably the extreme reaction to the old laissez-faire Greek Catholic attitude to Catholic/Orthodox identity, self-latinization taken up a notch: Bishop (later Archbishop) Nicholas Elko in the '50s and '60s, tearing down iconostases. (The irony of my nostalgia, in a way: people then believed in progress; they didn't know it would destroy so much good and not really be progress.) The same guy who dropped the names 'Ruthenian' and 'Greek Catholic' (tainted by the Chornock split?) in favor of 'Byzantine Catholic'. (When I first saw that moniker in a phone book I thought they were vagantes.) He wanted to replace both the traditional Roman Rite and the Byzantine Rite in America with an American Rite he came up with, which I understand was a quirky conservative Novus Ordo type of services. Basically de-ethnicize both ritual groups in America, merge them, and assimilate. He went too far even for the very latinized Ruthenians in America: a number of priests complained to Rome, so in '67 Rome fired him by kicking him upstairs to a Vatican post. He came home to America a few years later, but serving as an auxiliary bishop of the Roman Rite Archdiocese of Cincinnati. So ironically, when Roman authorities were gutting the traditional Roman Rite, a Greek Catholic bishop who had been trying to do the same thing (aggiornamento crap, 'updating'), was de facto fired.

(A lot like how I view conservative Novus Ordo, of which he was a forerunner: he was not a heretic, and admirably anti-Communist, but otherwise a damn fool. I go with natural traditionalism, not revisionism like his.)

Polka:

Quote
Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair, Fuz-zy Wuz-zy was a bear.
Fuzzy Wuzzy lost his crop
Down at Janko's barber shop
Fuz-zy Wuz-zy was a bear.

V'icnaja pamjat'.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 21, 2013, 03:18:18 PM
We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.
Most, but not all, left the Catholic Church and submitted again to the Vatican.  But then again, many had been Orthodox before the Communists came.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 21, 2013, 03:45:05 PM
A founder of this board's wife is from Slovakia, having come to America as a little girl, so he got to travel in Eastern Europe, including Transcarpathia, formerly far eastern Slovakia, the part of Ruthenia the Soviets grabbed during WWII and annexed to the Ukraine. He said that, unlike Slovaks, they thought Czechoslovakia was neat and wanted to go back to that. They're Greek Catholic and don't identify as Russian.
Transcarpathia was never far eastern Slovakia.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Czechoslovakia01.png)
It was referred to as "Carpathian Russinia" in the Constitution.  On paper it had autonomy with its own Diet and language laws etc. but, like Slovakia, it was run from Prague.

The thing that upset the locals the most was being annexed to Ukraine, rather than being an autonomous republic.  During the Ukraine independence vote, it voted for its own autonomy, which Kiev ignored.  Which is perhaps why the place remains committed to Russia-Moscow is further than Kiev (while in Czechoslovakia, it voted 75% against the use of Ukrainian in school).

The people of my old parish went back and forth (some came in the immigration wave that podkaparska talked about).  They were Orthodox and identified as Russian, although they identified Slovakia as "the old country," not Ukraine or the Russian Republic.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 03:50:57 PM
We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.
Most, but not all, left the Catholic Church and submitted again to the Vatican.  But then again, many had been Orthodox before the Communists came.

Right, your semantic game related to Orthodoxy's true-church claim. Like with George Takei and Teh Gay, enough. We get it. Anyway, as podkarpatska, who unlike you or me has roots in the region and has known more of the people than me (I've known some), said, there are not a whole lot of Orthodox there. You had Russian propaganda around WWI for political reasons and missionizing into the '30s, plus the born-again American expats mad at the Catholic Church funding missions back home. (The Polish National Catholic Church, founded in America for largely the same reason, mistreatment, tried to do the same back in Poland, spectacularly unsuccessfully. Despite the understandable appeal of allowing priests to marry, not just ordaining the married, and the appeal then of vernacular services, most Poles happily have remained Catholic.) Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described. In people's opinion in Slovakia and the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator. Some Rusyn-American Orthodox are upfront about that.

Is Sub-Carpathian Rus' on the map still in Slovakia or is it what's been, since the Soviets stole it in WWII, the oblast' of Transcarpathia in the Ukraine?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 21, 2013, 04:22:04 PM
Orthodoxy's true-church claim.

I swear like 95% of your posts mention some sort of "true-church claim." I'd expect to see it less, at least for Orthodoxy, since there seem to be enough of us on here that don't make any sort of "EO only are the True Church"-claims.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 21, 2013, 04:31:35 PM
Orthodoxy's true-church claim.

I swear like 95% of your posts mention some sort of "true-church claim." I'd expect to see it less, at least for Orthodoxy, since there seem to be enough of us on here that don't make any sort of "EO only are the True Church"-claims.

What kind of claim you do?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Nephi on July 21, 2013, 04:48:51 PM
Orthodoxy's true-church claim.

I swear like 95% of your posts mention some sort of "true-church claim." I'd expect to see it less, at least for Orthodoxy, since there seem to be enough of us on here that don't make any sort of "EO only are the True Church"-claims.

What kind of claim you do?

Well, I do believe the OO episcopates to be instantiations of the Church for example.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 21, 2013, 09:06:07 PM
Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described.

In this kind of situation, I'm never sure whether the person actually meant to say "quash", or if they're just being colorful ... you know, like "It was crushed, squashed, pounded down" etc.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 21, 2013, 09:15:41 PM
Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described.

In this kind of situation, I'm never sure whether the person actually meant to say "quash", or if they're just being colorful ... you know, like "It was crushed, squashed, pounded down" etc.

Being colorful. It works because it means the same thing.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 22, 2013, 03:23:03 AM
Right, your semantic game related to Orthodoxy's true-church claim. Like with George Takei and Teh Gay, enough. We get it.
Evidently not.
[quote author=The young fogey link=topic=52376.msg956241#msg956241 date=1374436257
Anyway, as podkarpatska, who unlike you or me has roots in the region and has known more of the people than me (I've known some), said, there are not a whole lot of Orthodox there. You had Russian propaganda around WWI for political reasons and missionizing into the '30s, plus the born-again American expats mad at the Catholic Church funding missions back home.[/quote]
You are skipping the whole Russophilia movement (which the Czar dealt a heavy death blow with the heavy hand of those he put in charge during the occupation), a half century and more before.
Then there are those who dodged the "Union."  When Emperor Joseph came to survey his new gotten gains (at the expense of Poland(-Lithuania) in 1785 he was surprised by a delegation in Lemberg/L'viv of Orthodox petitioning for a diploma granting the right to build a Church.  The direct result, St. George/Nicholas.
Then there are those who went next door to Bukowian.  When its Metropolia gained autocephaly in 1873 it contained around 200,000 Orthodox Ruthenians. That's not counting its crypto-Orthodox members in Galicia (and elsewhere) the pool that the Czar recruited for his spectacularly successful campaign to bring the Chełm eparchy back to Orthodoxy-the friction engendered by Polish oppression in Galicia no doubt helping.
(The Polish National Catholic Church, founded in America for largely the same reason, mistreatment, tried to do the same back in Poland, spectacularly unsuccessfully. Despite the understandable appeal of allowing priests to marry, not just ordaining the married, and the appeal then of vernacular services, most Poles happily have remained Catholic.)
Helped in no little part by the marriage of the Second Polish Republic and the Vatican in the Warsaw Concordat, under which the authorities persecuted, harassed and restricted not only the Orthodox but also Metropolitan Sheptytskyi and his flock.  Under that regime, the PNCC never gained legal recognition.
Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described. In people's opinion in Slovakia and the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator.

And yet Western Ukraine itself remains overwhelmingly Orthodox: in only three oblasts (Lviv, Ivan-Franko, Ternopil-in that order: the Orthodox nearly equal the UGCC there the last, and close in the middle one) does the UGCC have a majority of the population.

They have come up before:
Quote
But in this whole controversy the Moscow Patriarchate stubbornly does not want to notice one very important detail. Speaking of “the defeat of three Orthodox dioceses” conceals the true statistics of Orthodoxy in Galicia. And they are really impressive. Here is the number of Orthodox parishes: in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast there are about 462 parishes (34 UOC-MP, 279 UOC-KP, 149 UAOC), in Lviv Oblast, respectively, 912 (69 UOC-MP, 460 UOC-KP, 383 UAOC) in Ternopil Oblast 663 parishes (125 UOC-MP, 227 UOC-KP, 261 UAOC). For comparison, take the Donetsk Oblast (one of the largest in Ukraine), which has 757 Orthodox communities, or Zhytomyr with 848 parishes and finally Odessa with 684 Orthodox parishes. With so many parishes can there be talk about the defeat of Orthodoxy in Galicia? Statistics show that such centers of “canonical Orthodoxy” as Donetsk or Odesa do not exceed the number of communities “defeated” in the Lviv Oblast, where there are 912 communities.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/
This was claimed in 2011, at the same time UGCC was claiming 1,495 in the L'viv oblast, 650 in Ivano-Frankivsk (including those in its Kolomyia-Chernivtsi eparchy, which covers over half the territory of the oblast and goes beyond it into another stronghold of Orthodoxy in West UKraine in the days of the Habsburgs, the Chernivtsi oblast), and 717 in Ternopil (including the totals of its Ternopil-Zboriv and Buchach, although they cover the Khmelnytskyi oblast as well). That gives the UOC 5% in the L'viv oblast, more than 5% in the Ivano-Franivsk, and well over 17% in the Ternopil Oblast, of the UGCC's parishes, but if one counts those who reject the UGCC and prefer Orthodoxy (even in an uncanonical form), the line up comes to Orthodoxy having 61% in the L'viv oblast, more than 71% in the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast, and well over 93% of the number of UGCC parishes in its strongholds. Or perhaps to simplify, the supporters of Orthodoxy are only outnumbered by the UGCC 2 to 1 in the L'viv oblast (if we ignore every other religious community in the oblast that would mean 68% UGCC 32% Orthodox), and nearly 1 to 1 in the Ivano-Franivsk (59% UGCC 41% Orthodox) and in Ternopil (52% UGCC 48% Orthodox).  Even putting the Vatican's Latins in does not appreciably change the picture: it would make it 64% of L'viv the Vatican's flock 36% Orthodox; Ivano-Franivsk <60% versus >40% and Ternopil  <55% versus >45%.

One wonders what the numbers would be in the Vatican's stronghold in West Ukraine were it not that " In [the] people's opinion in...the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator."

The three oblasts had a combined population of 5,013,098 in 2010: if you put all the 4,350,735 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, throughout the world, in those three oblasts, that would make it have only 87% of the population.  If you just put all of the 3,710.729 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, throughout Ukraine, in just those three oblasts, that would make it have only 74% of the population.  If you just put all of the 3,367,112 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, for the L'viv Archeparchy, and the Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil-Zborkiv, Sambir-Drohobych, Sokol-Zhovka, Stryi, Kolomyia-Chernivitsi and Buchach eparchies-which go beyond the three oblasts of the Vatican's stronghold and into "Orthodox territory"-in just those three oblasts, it would have only 67% of the population.

To get a clearer picture, that 3,367,112 actually live among 7,248,414 (the actual total of population of all the oblasts-all in West Ukraine-that the UGCC claims in these eparchies), i.e. only 47%.  Throw in the rest of West Ukraine that the UGCC-or, perhaps better put, all of West Ukraine outside of Zakarpattia, the Orthodox stronghold (despite the best efforts of both the 1st and 2nd Polish Republics: it still serves as the stronghold across the border in the Third Polish Republic) of Volhynia-so foreign to the UGCC it claims to rule it by an exarch in Lutsk, and it falls to less than 36% of 9,439,213-the 2,317 its Exarch claims not boosting its standing.

Btw, the three oblasts stand out in other ways, like local elections:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Ukr_local_elections_2010.PNG)
On L’viv, and the claimed dominance of the UGCC, has come up before:
Quote
This bond was forcibly dissolved in 1946 by the Soviet authorities and the Roman Catholic community was forced out by the expulsion of the Polish population. Since 1989, religious life in Lviv has experienced a revival.
Until 2005 Lviv was the only city with two Catholic Cardinals: Lubomyr Husar (Byzantine Rite) and Marian Jaworski (Latin Rite).
Lviv is the seat of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Lviv, the centre of the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine and until 21 August 2005 was the centre of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. About 35 per cent of religious buildings belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, 11.5 per cent to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, 9 per cent to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kiev Patriarchate and 6 per cent to the Roman Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv#Monuments_in_Lviv
Since that all adds up to 61.5%, leaving 38.5% of religious buildings. Who has them?  The Armenians are not that numerous. As the article goes on to state, the once great community of Jews in Lviv has been wipped out, so they can't be making up the 38.5%.  The article doesn't mention Protestants at all...do they even register their religious buildings? Can they?  Since Islam, Buddhism etc. haven't made a dent among the masses of Lviv, that only leaves the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox, i.e. UOC-Moscow Patriarchate, to take up the bulk.  Is that why the 38.5% are not labeled?

Some Rusyn-American Orthodox are upfront about that.
Perhaps the Carpatho-Russians are not, because the "Union" they left remains a minority in West Ukraine, its stronghold.

Is Sub-Carpathian Rus on the map still in Slovakia or is it what's been, since the Soviets stole it in WWII, the oblast' of Transcarpathia in the Ukraine?
You mean, that Ukraine "stole" now, don't you? Like the rest of West Ukraine (outside of the Khmelnyskyi oblast) that Ukraine has because of Stalin and Khrushchev. No?

If one put all the 646,243 that the Ruthenian "sui juris," according to the Vatican, claims, and put them in the Zakarpattia oblast's 1,246,323, that would make have just half (<52%).  Use the 380,000 figure its Mukacheve eparchy uses, and it drops to 30%.  That leaves a lot of room for 'traitors" "Russian/Soviet-if you make the distinction-collaborators" for the Orthodox.
Entry courtesy of Encyclopedia of Rusyn History and Culture
http://www.rusyn.org/relmukachevo.html
gives 289 parishes in Mukachveo in 1949
its official website claims
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&hl=en&q=cache:Vv36CB4mfkAJ:http://www.mgce.uz.ua/ipost.php?id=1&lang_id=2+greek+catholic+eparchy+of+mukachevo+parishes&ct=clnk
440 churches, 5 monasteries and 2 convents.
and this interesting paragraph:
Quote
At present Orthodox Church (under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate that has never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century) in Transcarpathia has over 500 parish communities, 2 eparchies and more than 40 monasteries. Besides 260 of our former church buildings Orthodoxies possess great number of churches built in-between two World Wars and also a significant number of new churches that have been built since 1991.
besides the lie that the jurisdiction of Moscow had never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century-it was, for one thing, under the jurisdiction of Isidore of Kiev, who was resident at Moscow-it does at least include mention "great number of Churches built in-between two World Wars," i.e. those formed by the movement of Return to Orthodoxy before 1946, an at least partial (and rare) admition that not all parishes in West Ukraine returned to Orthodoxy only in 1946.

Btw-any reason why the UGCC cannot have parishes in the Zakarpattia oblast?  Any reason why the Ruthian "sui juris" cannot have any in the other oblasts of Ukraine?

Put them altogether, the total population of West Ukraine (not including the Zhytymyr and Vinnytsia oblasts that are sometimes included, but not in the UGCC’s divisions for West Ukraine) 10,685,536 could contain all the souls that the UGCC and Ruthenian sui juris claim throughout the world-4,996,978-and it leave the Vatican with only 47% of West Ukraine.  Plenty of room for "traitors," "Russian collaborators" and "Soviet collaborators."  Limit it to those the UGCC and Ruthian "sui juris" claim for West Ukraine-3,749,429-and it falls to 35%  Throw in the 341,300 they claim East in Ukraine, and it rises only to 38%.  Even if only threw in all the Latins that have been claimed for the Vatican for all of the Ukraien-whether the seemingly high 1,000, 000 or the absurd claim for 4,000,000-that would raise it only to 44% to the absurd 73% of the population in the Vatican’s stronghold of West Ukraine.  So on the Vatican’s own figures (and fantasies), it can claim only 35%, to the 44% best case scenario (all the UGCC and Ruthenian “sui juris” with the highest sane estimate of their Latin coreligionist  that are claimed in All Ukraine, living in just West Ukraine) to the absurd (the insane estimate for those Latins) absolute ceiling of <76% of West Ukraine.  This putting of all the Vatican’s Ukrainian eggs in the one basket of the 8 oblasts of West(ernmost) Ukraine leaves 100% of the 35,254,284 in the East for “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collaborators,” and >24%-56%-65% of the population in West itself being potential “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collaborators.”

Fact is, the only place that UGCC is position to promote such goofy ideas of their neighbors is only the L’viv oblast (which the UGCC divides into its L’viv Archeparchy, and its Sambir-Drohobych, Sokol-Zhovka and Stryi eparchies).  And even there, the UGCC claims, according to the Vatican, 1,860544, or 73% of the total population.  If one goes to the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast and include all that the UGCC, according to the Vatican, claims for its Ivano-Frankivsk and Kolomyia-Chernivtsi eparchy (although the latter claims the Chernivtsi oblast too), 843,218, it means it only has 61% of I.F.  And in Ternopil, if one puts all 666,100 that  that the UGCC, according to the Vatican, claims for its Ternopil-Zboriv and Buchach eparties (although they also claim more populous Khmelnytskyi oblast) in that one oblast, it would also claim only 61% of the populace.  In the nearby Zakarpattia oblast, the Vatican does not list any for the UGCC, but lists those of its Ruthenians, only 30% of the population.  That’s it for its core:30-73%, surrounded by four other oblasts in West Ukraine with nearly 100% (the exact number is 4,423,798 of 4,426,115) potential “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collabators,” with a potential Fifth Column in the Vatican’s three oblasts of 27%-70% of the population of the Vatican’s stronghold.

How’s that for boring?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 09:35:30 AM
So the western Ukraine's more Russian Orthodox than I thought? OK, fine. Could be due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there, as happened in the Baltics, in some cases a huge minority there (issue: Russians born there, now not welcome; not fair!).

Tangent: Transdniester should either be annexed to Russia or be recognized as the independent Russian country it is. It's not Romanian so it's not Moldova, and I don't think they want to be in the independent Ukraine either. I understand the Transdniestrians now have Russian passports. Interesting place, Transdniester. They miss the USSR, understandably; being a superpower was cool. But they're not really Communist, just good old-fashioned nationalists. They're Russian Orthodox; Tiraspol, their capital, has a cathedral. Backstory: like how the USSR handed the Crimea over from Russia to the Ukraine, never anticipating Ukrainian independence, it gave Transdniester, historically part of the Ukraine, to Moldova. Then Moldova became independent and the Russian majority in Transdniester didn't want to go along, being a minority in a Romanian country.

My guesses: Moldova will join Romania and Byelorussia will rejoin Russia; the only issues are now the conditions just aren't right. My sources: talking to a Romanian and to an American married to a Byelorussian who's been there many times. Also from him: Byelorussia doesn't pretend it's free but in practice they are; Russians like strongmen and Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times, because the Byelorussians like him. Until recently, ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times.

Most of the Ukraine is Russian. America's been trying to screw around with the country, further distancing it from Russia. It backed the Orange Revolution (Viktor Yushchenko) and Yushchenko's Kiev Patriarchate vs. the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church. It's as if Russia egged on California to secede from the Union and backed the new government, and pushed California's Catholics to break with Rome. No wonder Putin's angry. (By the way, California probably could make it as an independent country.) I've known both Greek Catholic WWII refugees from Galicia, Ukrainian in spades, and post-Soviet immigrants from Kharkov who didn't want to be Ukrainian; they were Russians.

See, I'm both Catholic and pro-Russian, as my regular readers know.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: mike on July 22, 2013, 09:46:33 AM
Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times,

Seriously?

Quote
the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church.

Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 22, 2013, 09:51:21 AM
This IS getting boring.   :)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 22, 2013, 09:58:25 AM
Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

(http://ksj.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/tracker/2011/yawn2.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Samn! on July 22, 2013, 10:27:51 AM
Quote
ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times


Uh, no..... the president of Pridnestrovie from the end of the USSR, Igor Smirnov (no joke!), was, like Lukashenko, the head of an industrial concern who used that position to wriggle into politics as things were falling apart. Their current president, Yevgeny Shevchuk (45 years old), actually beat Smirnov for the position in a 2011 election that confused everyone by being pretty free and fair.... They still have those nifty hammers and sickles on their money, though.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 10:32:31 AM
Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

(http://ksj.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/tracker/2011/yawn2.jpg)

That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 10:33:55 AM
Quote
ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times


Uh, no..... the president of Pridnestrovie from the end of the USSR, Igor Smirnov (no joke!), was, like Lukashenko, the head of an industrial concern who used that position to wriggle into politics as things were falling apart. Their current president, Yevgeny Shevchuk (45 years old), actually beat Smirnov for the position in a 2011 election that confused everyone by being pretty free and fair.... They still have those nifty hammers and sickles on their money, though.

Thanks for the 411.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 22, 2013, 10:34:11 AM
^^ Second boringest book I've read was The history of the church in Carpathian Rus'  8)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 22, 2013, 10:34:53 AM
Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

(http://ksj.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/tracker/2011/yawn2.jpg)

That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.

Dude. You've been on that for like 15 years now. Seinfeld makes fun of everything, including itself. That's its schtick. Get over it.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 10:36:34 AM
Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

(http://ksj.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/tracker/2011/yawn2.jpg)

That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.

Dude. You've been on that for like 15 years now. Seinfeld makes fun of everything, including itself. That's its schtick. Get over it.

Turned my back on consciously following pop culture in 1998. Gone backwards since, to about 50 years ago.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 22, 2013, 10:38:19 AM
Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

(http://ksj.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/tracker/2011/yawn2.jpg)

That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.
1. Seinfeld = greatest show ever
2. Latvians are not Slavs

Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 10:44:36 AM
2. Latvians are not Slavs

I know, but in TV land, such as when Jews are putting down Eastern Europeans (they invented Polack jokes), all Eastern Europeans are played as Russians, so you hear Romanian characters with Russian accents, and the church in that episode is obviously Russian Orthodox (I think it's in Brooklyn).

Latvians aren't Orthodox either. Half are Catholic; half are Lutheran.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: augustin717 on July 22, 2013, 10:48:01 AM
Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

(http://ksj.mit.edu/sites/default/files/images/tracker/2011/yawn2.jpg)

That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.

Dude. You've been on that for like 15 years now. Seinfeld makes fun of everything, including itself. That's its schtick. Get over it.
In some of my interwebs haunts YF is sort of an inside joke.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 22, 2013, 10:50:08 AM
(http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/26d/4b2/82c/resized/the-jews-meme-generator-we-can-make-it-look-like-the-jews-did-it-9b73d2.jpg?1314115564.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 22, 2013, 11:13:02 AM
the legitimate Orthodox church

(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4788902478546364&pid=1.9&w=300&h=300&p=0)
Orthodoxy not make one legitimate.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 22, 2013, 11:15:16 AM
Latvians aren't Orthodox either. Half are Catholic; half are Lutheran.

Just stay away from the squirrels.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Papist on July 22, 2013, 11:47:38 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 11:50:04 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Papist on July 22, 2013, 11:55:18 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 22, 2013, 12:25:12 PM
2. Latvians are not Slavs

I know, but in TV land, such as when Jews are putting down Eastern Europeans (they invented Polack jokes), all Eastern Europeans are played as Russians, so you hear Romanian characters with Russian accents, and the church in that episode is obviously Russian Orthodox (I think it's in Brooklyn).
LOL.  My ex-wife, when we first met in Romania, asked me what I thought Romanian sounded like. I answered her truthfully (always a bad idea, as it turned out), that it sounded like Italian with a Russian accent.
Latvians aren't Orthodox either. Half are Catholic; half are Lutheran.
Quote
Orthodoxy was planted in Latvia in the 11th century, when it became a mission field of the diocese of Polotsk. The country remained mostly pagan until it was conquered in the 13th century by German crusaders - the Teutonic Order, who were elective of Catholicism. Orthodox presence continued in the form of churches for Russian merchants and others, but these were small communities among a majority of Catholics before 1525 and Lutherans afterward. After Latvia was annexed to the Russian Empire in the 18th century (most of Latvia, a result of the Great Northern War by the Treaty of Nystad, the Latgale region after the First Partition of Poland in 1772), Russian and Orthodox presence increased substantially, but the Orthodox Church remained foreign to the Latvians. The Latvian Orthodox Church as a body including ethnic Latvians as well as Russians dates back to the 1840s, when native Latvians (who were at that time subjects of the Russian Empire) petitioned the Czar to be allowed to conduct services in their native tongue. The Orthodox Church enjoyed some success in its missions among the Latvians due to its use of the Latvian language. In the 1880s Orthodox Nativity Cathedral was built in Riga. However, it was always regarded suspiciously by the Lutheran Germanic nobles of the area; conversely the predominantly German character of the Lutheran Church in Latvia was a factor in the movement of some 40,000 Latvians from the Lutheran to the Orthodox Church......During World War I, the property of the Orthodox Church in Latvia was confiscated by occupying German forces, and in the early years of independent Latvia the government was not eager to recognize the church, suspecting it of being a hotbed of czarism. In this difficult — one might say desperate — situation, Jānis (Pommers), a native Latvian, was appointed Archbishop of Riga in 1921. He succeeded in winning recognition from the government by 1926 and, against much opposition from leftists and others, in stabilizing the situation of the church. While opposing the Bolsheviks, he maintained the Latvian Orthodox Church within the Moscow Patriarchate. In 1934, he was brutally assassinated by Soviet agents...In 2001 a council of the Latvian Orthodox Church canonised Archbishop Jānis in recognition of his heroic martyrdom in 1934. In 2006 the Order of the holy martyr Jānis was instituted to reward those who have served the Orthodox Church and its aims...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox_Church

Btw, like Finns, Estonians and Lithuanians, the Latvians got their literary cultural under the Czars.  The Vatican's Poles and the Lutheran Baltic Germans and Swedes (although Orthodox Christianity came first among the Finns, Estonians and Lithuanians) made sure it did not happen before then, although they ruled them 2-3x as long as the Czar.

The Empress Catherine I of Russia was born a Lithuanian peasant baptized by the Vatican, raised an orphan by a Lutheran Pastor as foster father, Johann Ernst Glück, the first translator of the Bible into Latvian, in this house on the Latvian-Estonian border (near Russia)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/AluksneBibelMuseum.png)
Unfortunately the Russians had to pay for their Imperialism and Nationalism. To get an idea, have you ever heard about "Latvian Orthodox Church"? No it disappeared! A few who were left have approached the Estonain bishop Stefanos so that he would be in charge of the "ruins" of the Latvian Orthodox Church but Stefanos refused becasue he didn't want more troubles with the Russians.

LOL.  No, it hasn't disappeared:
Quote
Popular culture
The Church plays a major role in "The Conversion" episode of the popular television sitcom Seinfeld, in which the character George Costanza converts to Latvian Orthodoxy in order to have his ex-girlfriend's Latvian Orthodox parents allow a relationship between the two. However, she leaves on a trip to Latvia after he converts. The writer of the episode, Bruce Kirschbaum, revealed later that he was unaware that the religion actually existed while writing the episode. His original intention was to have a fictitious religion.[2] Indeed, while appearing Eastern Orthodox to the casual observer, much of the attire and ritual is actually more western in style. Furthermore, the word "kavorka," which in the episode was used to describe Kramer's attractiveness as "the lure of the animal," is not a real Latvian word. Nevertheless, Kirschbaum received many letters from the church thanking him for bringing attention to the religion, despite his fear upon learning that it was a real religion that its practitioners would resent the episode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox_Church

Btw, the primate of Lativia before the Nazi invasion ended up as Bp. John of Chicago (OCA), of blessed memory.  His adopted son, the now retired priest Fr. Sergei Glarklavs still has his staff as bishop of Riga and All Lativia.  His son, Bp John's grandson, is Fr. Alexander, the OCA's chancellor.
I know European history, not only by studying it at the U of C, but those who lived it: I know the family of the OCA chancellor Fr. Alexander Glarklavs, whose grandfather Archb. John was born in Latvia (again, LONG before 1940) and was Archbishop of Chicago. Before that, he was primate of Riga and All Latvia, and fled with the Tikhvin icon when the Soviets came.  His father, Fr. Sergei, Arb. John's adopted son, married me and still speaks fluent Latvian.  The point is that as ESTONIAN, Patriarch Alexei and Archb. Korneli (not only ESTONIAN, but also jailed by the Soviets for religious activity) also knows history.  Having lived it.  The EP hasn't noticed that the Sultan (note: not the emperor) has been removed from the scene.
Btw, I also knew Lutheran Latvians, who fled the Soviet takeover.  I just ran into a number of them last year, when our old Lutheran parish was being closed (my family always passed the Latvian Consulate, now the Latvian Cultural Center, on the way to church).

Remember: it's the hats!
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcgwdweaou1qmib1ko1_500.png)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 22, 2013, 12:37:45 PM
Quote
ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times


Uh, no..... the president of Pridnestrovie from the end of the USSR, Igor Smirnov (no joke!), was, like Lukashenko, the head of an industrial concern who used that position to wriggle into politics as things were falling apart. Their current president, Yevgeny Shevchuk (45 years old), actually beat Smirnov for the position in a 2011 election that confused everyone by being pretty free and fair.... They still have those nifty hammers and sickles on their money, though.
and here I thought your only area of expertise was the Middle East! :D
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 22, 2013, 12:44:06 PM
Remember: it's the hats!

To be fair, it was just a show, going for laughs, and the sets, accents, and costumes, a mix of the familiar Catholic and the exotic Eastern, are like a half-remembered visit to an immigrant Orthodox church in the US.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Samn! on July 22, 2013, 01:01:01 PM
and here I thought your only area of expertise was the Middle East! :D

I've spent some months in Moldova at various times....
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 22, 2013, 01:11:10 PM
A sad thought, when in 2413, Ialmisry the VII writes "A brief History of the Orthodox at the turn of the 21st Century" (map annotated edition) it will be as full of intrigue, confusion and scheming as the current tomes on the 16th century. Let's pray that there will folks interested in the subject! ( I'm not commenting about Isa, I'm just making an observation of how little humans change in their behavior.)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 22, 2013, 01:39:13 PM
A sad thought, when in 2413, Ialmisry the VII writes "A brief History of the Orthodox at the turn of the 21st Century" (map annotated edition) it will be as full of intrigue, confusion and scheming as the current tomes on the 16th century. Let's pray that there will folks interested in the subject! ( I'm not commenting about Isa, I'm just making an observation of how little humans change in their behavior.)
TheTrisagion the VII will still pronounce it boring.  ;D
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 22, 2013, 01:55:34 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

I have trouble interpreting it such that it doesn't mean that some WR parishes will be required to give up WR ... but I'll wait and see.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Christopher McAvoy on July 22, 2013, 06:28:59 PM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

Mr. Papist,

I for one thank you for your prayers. We need them. Through my exploration of the post-schism Latin rite I recently purchased my first "Antiphonale Romano-Seraphicum Pro Horus Diurnis" from 1928. This book includes the historic divine office chants and propers for most of the franciscans saints, IE. Bonaventure of Bagnoregio, Anthony of Padua, Claire of Assisi. I have no intention of using them in an Orthodox Church but I am impressed with them, for the examples of those saints gave a stronger foundation to the Roman Catholic Faith of New Mexico. Most of your patrimony is our patrimony. ;D   Perhaps someday New Mexico will have another Bishop Jean-Baptiste Lamy.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 22, 2013, 06:39:01 PM
So the western Ukraine's more Russian Orthodox than I thought?

No, less in submission to the Vatican than you thought.  I really didn't get into the Orthodox numbers, Russian or otherwise.
OK, fine. Could be due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there, as happened in the Baltics, in some cases a huge minority there (issue: Russians born there, now not welcome; not fair!).
No, as, as the Polish Second Republic found out, the place had plenty of Orthodox, despite Poland's best efforts to get rid of them (the Republic's last official act was closing the last Orthodox Church left in Lutsk and converting it to a cathedral of the Vatican's Latin ordinary).  The reason why, with the powers the Vatican vested in it by the Concordat, restricted Met. Sheptytskyi to the predecessor of the three oblasts, with the Vatican's blessings-it slapped the Metropolitan's hand when he tried to go exert jurisdiction West, North, East or South of the territory of the old Crownland of Galicia.  The Rivne and Volyn oblasts remained Orthodox, despite the Poles best efforts.  The Chernivtsi oblast had been a stronghold of Ruthenian/Ukrainian Orthodoxy since the days of Austria Hungary: rule by Romania (which had a king in communion with the Vatican most of the interwar period, and his Constitution and Concordat with the Vatican favored the "Church in Union with Rome, Greek Catholic") did not change that.  In the Zakarpattia oblast, the Orthodox, having survived the treason trials from 1882 and concentration camps of Tallerhof of the Habsburgs, had formed the dominant constituent core of the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia, bringing the WRO core of the primate St. Bp. Gorazd into the Eastern Rite (unfortunately, IMHO, and apropos to the OP). Of the some 9,822,922 of the population of Interwar West Ukraine (8,292,565 of the Southeastern voivodships of the Polish Second Republic, 725,357 of Carpathia Russinia and the 805,000 of Northern Bucovina; I don't count the Soviet parts, as they were overwhelmingly Orthodox, with the Vatican's flock nearly non-existent), included at least 2,286598 (224,261 Romanians, 2,062,337 Slavs of various sorts:the sources I can access admit the existence of Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox, but do not give the means to sort them out from the Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Carpatho-Russians, Rusyn, Lemkos, etc.) confessing the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church before the first Soviet soldier moved Ukraine's Western border the first centimeter towards the Ribbentrop-Molotov line.  IOW, at least 23% of the population.
It gets even worse if the figures for the Polish Voivodships are limited to just the area now in Ukraine-then its contribution drops to 7,017,400 with no dimnuation of the Orthodox, leaving a total population of 8,547,757 and the Orthodox having 27% of that.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jLfX1q3kJzgC&pg=PR16&dq=Denominational+Structure+of+the+Ukrainian+Territories+Belonging+to+Poland+in+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k3XtUaOdGJTlygHto4CACA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Denominational%20Structure%20of%20the%20Ukrainian%20Territories%20Belonging%20to%20Poland%20in%201931&f=false
Even more than the 26.9% of the Latvian population "due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there" (itself a fallacy, as Great Russians lived in Latvia in the interwar years), the 24.8% of the Estonian population blamed on the same cause, and far more than the 5.8% of Lithuania blamed on the Soviets.  For comparison, the Great Russians made up 10.5% (and rising), 8.2% (later lost when the R.S.S.R helped itself to parts of Estonia) and 2.5% (the small number largely due to the Poliish occupation and annexation of Lithuania's capital) of the Interwar Baltic Republics respectively.  All without a shred of Soviet involvement.

On that, when the dust settled, the census of 1959 showed 7,799,058 in West Ukraine, with 402,938 Great Russians making up 5% of that. As the Orthodox 27% of the 1939 population in the same area did not evaporate, it seems that even if every Great Russian was Orthodox, they did not make up the bulk of the Orthodox population.  I guess that leaves those "Soviet Collaborators" you talked about.

But don't rob the Poles of their due: Operation Vistula and its fallout dumped about a million in West Ukraine.  Looking at the data on the Ukrainian and Belorussian Orthodox (and ignoring that on the Polish and Czech Orthodox), the Orthodox in Polish occupied Byelorussia etc., the fact that the various "Unions" had only about half a million (including Poles and others) before WWII in the Second Polish Republic's territories outside of what the Soviets latter annexed for Ukraine (including the territories the Soviets latter annexed for Belarus), and it becomes clear that over 500,000 of them were Orthodox.  That would boost the Orthodox share of West Ukraine not due any action of the Soviets (aside from annexing it, and allowing the Poles to expel, and accepting those expelled) to about 28% of the Interwar population, if Operation Vistula happened in the 30's instead of after WWII.  Count out of the population those Poles the Ukrainians killed and the Jews the Holocaust killed during the War, and the Poles, Hungarians and Germans etc. the Soviets expelled after the War, and I dare say that you might have an Orthodox majority in West Ukraine, before the Soviets moving a single Great Russian, Orthodox or otherwise there.

Tangent: Transdniester should either be annexed to Russia or be recognized as the independent Russian country it is. It's not Romanian so it's not Moldova, and I don't think they want to be in the independent Ukraine either. I understand the Transdniestrians now have Russian passports. Interesting place, Transdniester. They miss the USSR, understandably; being a superpower was cool. But they're not really Communist, just good old-fashioned nationalists. They're Russian Orthodox; Tiraspol, their capital, has a cathedral. Backstory: like how the USSR handed the Crimea over from Russia to the Ukraine, never anticipating Ukrainian independence, it gave Transdniester, historically part of the Ukraine, to Moldova. Then Moldova became independent and the Russian majority in Transdniester didn't want to go along, being a minority in a Romanian country.
You left out the trade for Bucovina and Hertza, almost twice the size of Transnistria.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Tschernowitz_historical.PNG)
It is "not Romanian" only because of that Soviet occupation you talk about.  As late as 1769 the Metropolitan of Moldavia, as  "Mitropolitan of Proilavia, of Tamarova, of Hotin, and of all the borders of the Danube, of the Dniester, and the Han's Ukraine" had jurisdiction over a population that had a Romanian majority.
Transnistria's creation lies in the Soviets desire to make an irridentist claim to Bessarabia.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Massr_map.png)
Romanians made up almost a third of the population-yet less than two thirds of all the Romanians in Ukraine
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Harta_etnica_rassm.jpg)
which predate the Soviets and even the Czars' seizure of the territory:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Map-balkans-vlachs.png)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Romanians_before_WW1.jpg)
btw, somewhere here I went into some detail with Heorhij over this.

My guesses: Moldova will join Romania and Byelorussia will rejoin Russia; the only issues are now the conditions just aren't right. My sources: talking to a Romanian and to an American married to a Byelorussian who's been there many times. Also from him: Byelorussia doesn't pretend it's free but in practice they are; Russians like strongmen and Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times, because the Byelorussians like him. Until recently, ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times.
To be brutally honest, as long its population come to the Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan, or the Metropolitinate of Bessarabia of the Romanian Orthodox Church, I couldn't care less.
Most of the Ukraine is Russian.
Not quite:
percentage of native Ukrainian speakers:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ukrainian.svg)
percentage of native Russian speakers:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG)
America's been trying to screw around with the country, further distancing it from Russia. It backed the Orange Revolution (Viktor Yushchenko) and Yushchenko's Kiev Patriarchate vs. the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church. It's as if Russia egged on California to secede from the Union and backed the new government, and pushed California's Catholics to break with Rome. No wonder Putin's angry. (By the way, California probably could make it as an independent country.)
LOL.
A response would land this in politics.
Btw, CA tried its Bear Republic. Btw, where did they get the bear?
(http://remixpresidio.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/bull-and-bear.jpg?w=466&h=391)
Quote
Once the colony was established at Fort Ross and trade with el Presidio de San Francisco became a regular activity. And as an increasing number of European visitors sailed through the mouth of San Francisco Bay the settlers needed to escape from the monotony of colonial life. They also needed to prove to incoming ships that they were still apart of the civilized European community, and the quadrangle of el Presidio de San Francisco represented the face of this new thriving community (Voss 66). A welcomed break was often found through, “social events between the two settlements foster[ing] friendships, alliances, and romance among the colonial communities” (Voss 201). While it is difficult to envision what these social interactions would look like, we do know that they included dinner parties, dances (fandangos) and the infamous bull-and-bear fights. Traditionally these fights would include a bull, representing Spain, and a bear, representing Russia, in a fight to the death. The colonists would send hunting parties out to retrieve a California Grizzly Bear from the north and a traditional Spanish Bull from a southern ranchero (Blind 2008).
http://remixpresidio.wordpress.com/
(http://www.sfmuseum.org/photos6/toddflag.gif)

I've known both Greek Catholic WWII refugees from Galicia, Ukrainian in spades, and post-Soviet immigrants from Kharkov who didn't want to be Ukrainian; they were Russians.
I was shocked to talk to a Ukrainian, from Galicia post WWII, who married a girl from there after his family had moved here, what you call a "Greek Catholic" (named "Roman" no less), who was a Russophile (I thought they had died out or been killed off in Galicia, or otherwise eliminated by the =Soviet Collaborator, especially among the "Greek Catholic" after 1946).  His cousin related, with some pride, how going to the University of Kiev someone protested the use of Russian and he was told to shut up.

I don't buy that they are the majority, as they claimed, but I can't deny their existence, strange as it might seem.

See, I'm both Catholic and pro-Russian, as my regular readers know.
Ah, I was satisfied just having our paths cross.  I didn't know I had to hunt you down as well.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 22, 2013, 06:45:14 PM
A sad thought, when in 2413, Ialmisry the VII writes "A brief History of the Orthodox at the turn of the 21st Century" (map annotated edition) it will be as full of intrigue, confusion and scheming as the current tomes on the 16th century. Let's pray that there will folks interested in the subject! ( I'm not commenting about Isa, I'm just making an observation of how little humans change in their behavior.)
Historians and historiography depends on them not changing.  Otherwise, who would be interested in the subject?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on July 26, 2013, 08:27:51 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: monkvasyl on July 26, 2013, 08:34:40 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

When the day finally comes when there will be True unity among the churches, there will be a diversity of rites.  One rite should not be superior to another. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 26, 2013, 09:10:52 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

When the day finally comes when there will be True unity among the churches, there will be a diversity of rites.  One rite should not be superior to another. 

The showcase churches of the other side's rite are an application of the one-true-church claim and thus the claim to universality. On both sides it has had two versions, either a faithful mimicking of the other side (the little Russian Catholic Church in a few American cities, the AWRV's traditional Catholicism minus the Pope) or a heavily nativized version coming from the hate and distrust of the other side (heavily latinized Greek Catholic parishes, ROCOR WRV's anti-Catholic, heavily russo-byzantinized made-up rites).
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 26, 2013, 09:43:11 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

I apply for Russian citizenship right away. Too bad I cut my beard and lost my samovar at some point.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, "Just man up and be Orthodox" has some serious potential for a meme. We need a picture of shirtless Putin with that text.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 26, 2013, 10:09:36 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  :D, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.
The WRO man up, and then some.

In fact, I've been WRO who were Eastern Orthodox-as in ethnic Orthodox-who assimilated to where they lived.  Unlike the many Greeks, Arabs etc. who go Episcopalian when they Americanize.

Constantinople is neither the first nor only Orthodox see.  Hence the term New Rome.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 26, 2013, 10:37:29 AM
This tangent reminds me of much of American Orthodox history, not just the Slavic ex-Catholics but the Greek majority. There's long been a trend to blend in, when American culture was something I like better than now. So early on, priests shaved and wore black suits with either Roman notch or Episcopal white-band clerical collars. (Legend has it there's a picture of St Tikhon in a suit.) Related, the Tsar spoke fluent English with an upper-class English accent; he didn't go to Liturgy for Nativity; he went to Mass on Christmas. Ethnic American Orthodoxy really was a lot like '50s American Catholicism but without the Pope and with married priests. Might that have been or be a way for American Orthodoxy to go, rather than the anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 10:39:58 AM
This tangent reminds me of much of American Orthodox history, not just the Slavic ex-Catholics but the Greek majority. There's long been a trend to blend in, when American culture was something I like better than now. So early on, priests shaved and wore black suits with either Roman notch or Episcopal white-band clerical collars. (Legend has it there's a picture of St Tikhon in a suit.) Related, the Tsar spoke fluent English with an upper-class English accent; he didn't go to Liturgy for Nativity; he went to Mass on Christmas. Ethnic American Orthodoxy really was a lot like '50s American Catholicism but without the Pope and with married priests. Might that have been or be a way for American Orthodoxy to go, rather than the anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians?
Are you suggesting I should cut my beard?  ANATHEMA

(http://www.pitt.edu/~pdh11/menu%20bar%20links/anything%20photos/beard3.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 26, 2013, 10:40:34 AM
There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 26, 2013, 10:46:49 AM
There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 10:49:10 AM
I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

I agree.  When are you becoming Oriental Orthodox? 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Asteriktos on July 26, 2013, 10:51:04 AM
How do you differentiate between non-American and ethnics? In every parish environment I can remember interacting with folks in, all (or all but a handful) could speak English, and usually with no accent. Seemed American to me. Where is the line between ethnic and American? 2nd generation? 3rd? Can speak English fluently? Doesn't tell tales of the old country?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 10:53:23 AM
There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.
I do not see this substantiated by the research that has been done or by my own personal experience.  About 2/3 of my parish is converts with another 1/4 being the decendants of converts. Several of the other parishes in my area have similar demographics. Of course, TYF is privy to secret research that no one else knows about, so...  ::)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 26, 2013, 10:56:58 AM
Right, don't forget the OO's true-church claim, a wrench in the works of the EO-OO bromance in fora like these.

Worldwide Orthodoxy is 99% non-American. Likewise, American Orthodoxy is 99% ethnic. And getting smaller. And famous for inflating its numbers.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 11:11:41 AM
Right, don't forget the OO's true-church claim, a wrench in the works of the EO-OO bromance in fora like these.


Not really, and not just because I don't see the bromance you see, but never mind.  

My comment had more to do with the "Man up and be Orthodox" concept.  As if the type of Orthodoxy being promoted by such comments isn't Western?  Western culture, music, languages, etc. already dominate Eastern Orthodoxy in general, but particularly in its Slavic manifestations.  Using more smells and bells than the Pope of Rome doesn't make you Eastern.    

Edited to clarify two points.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 11:16:25 AM
Right, don't forget the OO's true-church claim, a wrench in the works of the EO-OO bromance in fora like these.

Worldwide Orthodoxy is 99% non-American. Likewise, American Orthodoxy is 99% ethnic. And getting smaller. And famous for inflating its numbers.

I am 99% sure that 99% of your statistics are comprised of 99% horse manure.

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30742719.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 26, 2013, 11:17:52 AM
Gotcha, Mor. To the OO, the EO are 'the West'. And as Fr Anthony Chadwick, an Anglican, put it, Russia especially is a halfway house between Western Europe and Asia.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: The young fogey on July 26, 2013, 11:24:38 AM
Anyway, you can see the AWRV as part of American Orthodox assimilation, a side project in the same phenomenon: the little Arab-American church saw missionary potential in having a then-contemporary Catholicism without the Pope. The ROCOR WRV took a different path, based more on ROCOR's fanatical phase/anti-Sixties backlash (not a bad impulse): not assimilation but creating something different from Byzantine but entirely Orthodox, again as if a Catholic held up latinized Greek Catholicism as the way Orthodoxy must go to be under Rome. There are dummies on both sides who think their majority rite is THE way; smells like phyletism to me.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 26, 2013, 11:33:33 AM
I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

So now WRO aren't real Orthodox?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peter J on July 26, 2013, 11:40:00 AM
Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.

When describing a majority, American minds always seem to jump the number 99%. At least 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 26, 2013, 12:11:43 PM
This tangent reminds me of much of American Orthodox history, not just the Slavic ex-Catholics but the Greek majority. There's long been a trend to blend in, when American culture was something I like better than now. So early on, priests shaved and wore black suits with either Roman notch or Episcopal white-band clerical collars. (Legend has it there's a picture of St Tikhon in a suit.) Related, the Tsar spoke fluent English with an upper-class English accent; he didn't go to Liturgy for Nativity; he went to Mass on Christmas. Ethnic American Orthodoxy really was a lot like '50s American Catholicism but without the Pope and with married priests. Might that have been or be a way for American Orthodoxy to go, rather than the anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians?
I seem to recall a lot of 19th-century Russians being anti-Western, and not having to convert to do so.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ialmisry on July 26, 2013, 12:13:29 PM
There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.
Not even the GOARCH is 99% non-American.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on July 26, 2013, 01:52:50 PM
I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

I agree.  When are you becoming Oriental Orthodox? 

When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 01:59:15 PM
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

Mor,
I had no idea you were a schematic.

(http://wallpoper.com/images/00/28/46/48/circuits-schematic_00284648.gif)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Alpo on July 26, 2013, 02:10:03 PM
^That seems like a fairly accurate description of Orthodox ecclesiastical politics.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 02:13:36 PM
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

God is fully God.  God is not fully man or even part man, he's not man at all.  

Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God (as St Severus of Antioch wrote of him in his hymn which you sing at every Divine Liturgy), is fully God and fully man, having become incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.  Thus we all teach, and thus we all believe, and it's all there for the world to see.  

But that wasn't even my point: as I made clear in subsequent posts, my comment was more directed to the idea that "Orthodoxy" is "not Western".  Your brand of Orthodoxy is Western through and through, but you (and people who think like you, of which there are many) don't see or care to admit that.  Orthodoxy ≠ Eastern.  That's all.

And next time, get your theology (and vocabulary) straight.    
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Romaios on July 26, 2013, 02:18:14 PM
Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God (as St Severus of Antioch wrote of him in his hymn which you sing at every Divine Liturgy)

We attribute the O monogenes to Emperor Justinian.  ;)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on July 26, 2013, 02:18:25 PM
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

Mor,
I had no idea you were a schematic.

(http://wallpoper.com/images/00/28/46/48/circuits-schematic_00284648.gif)

HAHAHA  :D  gotta love auto spell check


also, Jesus Christ is God, so how can Jesus be something that God isn't if they are both the same?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 02:18:47 PM
Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God (as St Severus of Antioch wrote of him in his hymn which you sing at every Divine Liturgy)

We attribute the O monogenes to Emperor Justinian.  ;)

You would.  ;)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 02:19:38 PM
also, Jesus Christ is God, so how can Jesus be something that God isn't if they are both the same?

Oh, my friend, that's a different thread. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 02:21:23 PM
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

Mor,
I had no idea you were a schematic.


HAHAHA  :D  gotta love auto spell check


also, Jesus Christ is God, so how can Jesus be something that God isn't if they are both the same?
Jesus is a person of the Trinity.  God the Father is not a man, the Holy Spirit is not a man, so you can't say that God is a man.  Only one of the three persons of God is incarnate.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 02:29:23 PM
Jesus is a person of the Trinity.  God the Father is not a man, the Holy Spirit is not a man, so you can't say that God is a man.  Only one of the three persons of God is incarnate.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a schematic for that.  ;)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 02:31:34 PM
Jesus is a person of the Trinity.  God the Father is not a man, the Holy Spirit is not a man, so you can't say that God is a man.  Only one of the three persons of God is incarnate.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a schematic for that.  ;)
For you schematically minded individuals...  ;D

(http://frtim.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/trinity1.jpg)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 02:37:21 PM
I tried to imagine how to make such a schematic that would incorporate "Man" along with "ises" and "is nots", in order to help explain that aspect better, and my head started moving along the lines of the tetrahedron I imagined.  My neck hurts. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 02:41:40 PM
I tried to imagine how to make such a schematic that would incorporate "Man" along with "ises" and "is nots", in order to help explain that aspect better, and my head started moving along the lines of the tetrahedron I imagined.  My neck hurts. 
I think you need a cantellated tesseract for that.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-zOrAL1V5Jg/TEb8lX5kGII/AAAAAAAAFsg/KpW2lEK9QnU/s400/Cantellated_tesseract3.png)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 02:43:16 PM
My mind is blown.  Thank you. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 02:52:14 PM
My mind is blown.  Thank you. 
But it should be so obvious now.  I think that it brings so much clarity to the subject.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on July 26, 2013, 04:26:19 PM
Yes this makes since, I should have said Jesus instead of God. Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church. With that said, not liking the western rite is one thing, but being a non Orthodox, thanks for the offer but not in this life time.  #Rant

At any rate, back on topic
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 04:39:39 PM
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak   

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues. 

Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: TheTrisagion on July 26, 2013, 05:02:00 PM
But how boring the world would be if we did not have ideologues to tell us how wrong everyone else is!  ;)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on July 26, 2013, 05:20:06 PM
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak   

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues. 



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: mike on July 26, 2013, 05:26:46 PM
Yawn. Go to Private Fora and play with yourselves there.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 05:49:55 PM
Yawn. Go to Private Fora and play with yourselves there.

English not your first language, or are you speaking from personal expertise?  :P
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: mike on July 26, 2013, 05:51:25 PM
Yawn. Go to Private Fora and play with yourselves there.

English not your first language, or are you speaking from personal expertise?  :P


Pun intended. Do you really need to troll some hyperdox newbie? It's not even funny and he does not realise you are trolling him.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 26, 2013, 05:56:17 PM
I don't need to, no.  You don't need to post half the stuff you post either.  But "need" hasn't been a meaningful category in internet discussion forum posting ever, so what's the problem?  "It's my constitutional right!"       

And I wasn't being funny. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Salpy on July 26, 2013, 06:26:49 PM
Let's get back on topic, and if people want to further debate Chalcedon and all its schematics, that would best take place in the private forum.   :)
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on July 26, 2013, 06:40:52 PM

Sorry, I didn't read the mods comment. I agree.

Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Father H on July 31, 2013, 06:10:44 PM
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak    

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues.  



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Peacemaker, not that you're wrong about everything, but "Peacemaker" as a screen name could be one of the worst misnomers ever.  So ROCOR's parishes of various rites all agree with the Ecumenical Councils.  You agree with this, yes?
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Agabus on July 31, 2013, 08:34:10 PM
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak    

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues.  



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Peacemaker, not that you're wrong about everything, but "Peacemaker" as a screen name could be one of the worst misnomers ever.
Considering that the Peacemaker was one of the most popular guns in history, perhaps it is quite apt.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Peacemaker on August 01, 2013, 01:07:20 AM
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak    

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues.  



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Peacemaker, not that you're wrong about everything, but "Peacemaker" as a screen name could be one of the worst misnomers ever.  So ROCOR's parishes of various rites all agree with the Ecumenical Councils.  You agree with this, yes?

Let's get back on topic
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Didymus on August 04, 2013, 09:53:05 AM
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.

Agreed. Despite the need for more priests, I think it would be best if two priests (one experienced, one in training) served each major parish and that only experienced priests serve small/mission parishes to ensure their safety and stability.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Aristobolus on August 05, 2013, 03:20:14 AM
If by "experienced" you mean retired, but willing to assist with a small parish, that is a great situation.  But any experienced Priests with children or nearing retirement cannot subsist on what most small missions pay them. 
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: ilyazhito on August 05, 2013, 01:46:05 PM
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.

Agreed. Despite the need for more priests, I think it would be best if two priests (one experienced, one in training) served each major parish and that only experienced priests serve small/mission parishes to ensure their safety and stability.
Either that, or have one priest and one deacon. If the deacon could be ordained a priest eventually, the priest would train him on the job. If not, the permanent deacon would then be the priest's assistant. With a priest, deacon, and subdeacon available at each parish, there would be fewer problems of succession, but even the readers and subdeacons would have to be vetted, to ensure that they would be able to succeed the priest and deacon if and when needed.
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: podkarpatska on August 05, 2013, 01:51:40 PM
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.

Agreed. Despite the need for more priests, I think it would be best if two priests (one experienced, one in training) served each major parish and that only experienced priests serve small/mission parishes to ensure their safety and stability.
Either that, or have one priest and one deacon. If the deacon could be ordained a priest eventually, the priest would train him on the job. If not, the permanent deacon would then be the priest's assistant. With a priest, deacon, and subdeacon available at each parish, there would be fewer problems of succession, but even the readers and subdeacons would have to be vetted, to ensure that they would be able to succeed the priest and deacon if and when needed.

You have to trust your bishop' s discernment. I know plenty of experienced priests and deacons who shouldn't be within a mile of a neophyte!
Title: Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
Post by: Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) on August 05, 2013, 03:15:42 PM
^^ +1