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Moderated Forums => Oriental Orthodox Discussion => Topic started by: Antonious Nikolas on July 07, 2013, 07:28:28 PM

Title: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 07, 2013, 07:28:28 PM
Hey Folks,

As you might've noticed, there have been a lot of threads on this and other Orthodox forums lately (not to mention websites like this http://dissidentcopts.blogspot.com/2009/06/things-to-straighten-protestant-thought.html) complaining about Evangelical and Charismatic thought and practice creeping into Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Well, a small group of us - Oriental Orthodox priests, deacons, and laity - believe that the time has come to stop complaining and do something.  Our desire is to work with - and in obedience to - our respective bishops and:

• develop a curriculum to be included in servants programs and seminaries so the future generation of servants and priests will be of a sound Orthodox Mind.
• facilitate the production of literature and hymns that are in line with the Orthodox teaching.
• conduct workshops in local churches and in different regions to train servants to adopt the Orthodox Mind and do away with protestant ways.
• create a website and Facebook page where clergy and servants interested in preserving Orthodoxy in their respective parishes can access patristic materials, essays, articles, videos, audio lectures, and other resources.

This fellowship is under the patronage of the great, pan-Oriental Orthodox Father St. Jacob Baradaeus (St. Jacob Baradaeus story: http://www.neamericandiocese.org/feasts-memorials.54/st-jacob-baradaeus.aspx).

The idea behind the fellowship is basically what I articulated in another thread on this issue.

We have to face the fact that the average Orthodox Christian isn't the amateur theologian who argues ad infinitum on these boards.  Rather, he or she is generally a pious person, not particularly theologically sophisticated, who has the same spiritual needs as every person.  When we don't meet those needs by teaching them about true Orthodox mysticism and theosis and how this cannot be achieved apart from living liturgically and participating in the Holy Mysteries - basically, opening to them the treasure trove of Orthodox spirituality - of course they turn to shallow means of satisfying the soul.  This is why we end up with folks who fool themselves into thinking that they can simultaneously be Orthodox and pseudo-tongue talkin' holy rollers, or worshippers of Haile Selassie, or crystal-carrying New Age mystics, or "Crazy 4 Christ" mega-church imitators, or whatever else.  We need to start working with our hierarchs to address this.

As the brilliant Orthodox theologian Harry Boosalis says in his wonderful book Taught by God:

“We are called not simply to preserve Patristic tradition. We are called to pursue it and to participate in it ourselves. From out of the well-spring of Holy Tradition and through our participation in the liturgical life of the Church; by attempting to acquire some share in the Fathers' spirit of humility and life of prayer; by pursuing their path toward purification, illumination and theosis, students of Orthodox Theology are called, and must be committed to, acquiring this same 'mind of the Fathers' which is nothing less than the mind of Christ Himself.

This not only keeps outside influences from infiltrating our inheritance; it also inspires and emboldens us as we confront, address, and reach out to the non-Orthodox around us. Only then can we speak with the same voice as our Fathers -- from out of the depths of their same experience, utilizing their same categories of thought, and rightly applying their same method and manner of approach.”


Amen.

I want to be very clear that this fellowship is not about advocating a rediscovery of Orthodoxy alongside  warped, Protestantized theology and practice, but to the absolute exclusion of it.

If any Oriental Orthodox Christian on these boards is interested in taking a stand along these lines against heterodox faith and practice creeping into our Communion, please pm me with your email.

In Christ,

A.N.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on July 08, 2013, 01:39:39 AM
Great initiative!

I am also very concerned about this. I actually have a site that I don't use anymore (since I joined a youth group of my Church), I posted translations in swedish of quotes, videos, etc. from OO fathers/mothers: http://qolomendabro.com/

If it could be of any help or spark any ideas. The name might not be suitable though, Qolo men Dabro, A voice from the desert in Syriac. I think I made a nice and clean design though. I was actually thinking of turning it into an English site with the same content a while back.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Kerdy on July 08, 2013, 04:00:19 AM
This is a topic I didn't know was actually taking place.  I would be very interested in hearing from other OO on this.  Does anyone know exactly how the infiltration of protestant ideas happened?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 08, 2013, 08:19:10 AM
Great initiative!

I am also very concerned about this. I actually have a site that I don't use anymore (since I joined a youth group of my Church), I posted translations in swedish of quotes, videos, etc. from OO fathers/mothers: http://qolomendabro.com/

If it could be of any help or spark any ideas. The name might not be suitable though, Qolo men Dabro, A voice from the desert in Syriac. I think I made a nice and clean design though. I was actually thinking of turning it into an English site with the same content a while back.

It is a nice, clean design, Suryoyutho.  I can't speak to the content as I don't read Swedish, but if you'd be willing to work with us, this site could be very helpful for our cause.  Thanks very much for volunteering.  :)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Orthodox11 on July 08, 2013, 09:42:11 AM
Great initiative!

I am also very concerned about this. I actually have a site that I don't use anymore (since I joined a youth group of my Church), I posted translations in swedish of quotes, videos, etc. from OO fathers/mothers: http://qolomendabro.com/

Great site! Tack så mycket!
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Alpo on July 08, 2013, 11:16:17 AM
Great initiative!

I am also very concerned about this. I actually have a site that I don't use anymore (since I joined a youth group of my Church), I posted translations in swedish of quotes, videos, etc. from OO fathers/mothers: http://qolomendabro.com/

Great site! Tack så mycket!

+1
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: dzheremi on July 08, 2013, 03:24:03 PM
This is a topic I didn't know was actually taking place.  I would be very interested in hearing from other OO on this.  Does anyone know exactly how the infiltration of protestant ideas happened?

Same as any, I would guess: Missionaries came, started spreading their ideas, winning converts, etc. One of the saddest things about the OO churches' relationships with the Westerners is that since most of the OO churches are surrounded by Islam, and the Western missionaries generally found Muslims too difficult to convert, they usually focused on the preexisting Christian communities instead, creating new branches of their churches out of whatever number that they could gain. And while time was that the bishops of the Orthodox churches found them just as curious as the Western missionaries themselves found the native Christians (see, for instance, the famous exchange between the Presbyterian missionaries in Egypt and the Bishop of Assiut in the 1860s, wherein the bishop asked the missionary: "We've been living with Christ for 2000 years; how long have your people been living with Him?"), it does seem that in our time the novelty has worn off and some feel obliged to treat a charismatic, evangelical whatever as a fellow brother or sister in Christ first and foremost. Any doctrinal differences are secondary in this way of thinking, since after all most OO churches are still surrounded by Islam, so the wider society reinforces this "well, you're all Christians anyway" idea.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 08, 2013, 03:55:47 PM
This is a topic I didn't know was actually taking place.  I would be very interested in hearing from other OO on this.  Does anyone know exactly how the infiltration of protestant ideas happened?

Same as any, I would guess: Missionaries came, started spreading their ideas, winning converts, etc. One of the saddest things about the OO churches' relationships with the Westerners is that since most of the OO churches are surrounded by Islam, and the Western missionaries generally found Muslims too difficult to convert, they usually focused on the preexisting Christian communities instead, creating new branches of their churches out of whatever number that they could gain. And while time was that the bishops of the Orthodox churches found them just as curious as the Western missionaries themselves found the native Christians (see, for instance, the famous exchange between the Presbyterian missionaries in Egypt and the Bishop of Assiut in the 1860s, wherein the bishop asked the missionary: "We've been living with Christ for 2000 years; how long have your people been living with Him?"), it does seem that in our time the novelty has worn off and some feel obliged to treat a charismatic, evangelical whatever as a fellow brother or sister in Christ first and foremost. Any doctrinal differences are secondary in this way of thinking, since after all most OO churches are still surrounded by Islam, so the wider society reinforces this "well, you're all Christians anyway" idea.

Yeah, Western proselytism played a big part.

I would add to this a few things:

a.) Failure to teach proper Orthodox ecclesiology on our part
b.) Failure to adequately address the errors in Protestant theology and "contemporary" approaches to worship
c.) People confusing cultural assimilation with adoption of heterodox faith and practice
d.) a general fear of the youth deserting us for more worldly churches that don't insist on fasting, where the service is a party, et cetera

I know I've said this a few times, but can't emphasize the ecclesiology thing enough.  After one Oriental Orthodox concelebration, a kindly middle-aged Coptic woman said she was disappointed the Catholics weren't invited (!?!)  When I expressed my astonishment at her statement she said, "Why not?  It's not Pope Shenouda's Church or Pope Benedict's Church, it's Jesus Christ's Church!"  That says it all.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on July 08, 2013, 11:17:01 PM
Reading the dissidentcopts entry, for example, I have to say that I'm completely sympathetic to the frustration that comes through the tone there.

But I would urge caution. Before taking a heavy hand to this problem, we have to ask why did it arise?

If we consider SMSV for example, it did not arise in a vacuum. It arose with the best intentions. There was no desire to make an evangelical community with an Orthodox veneer. The problem was that many of the youth were leaving the church because their culture was not egyptian, but north american. They felt like foreigners in their own church. Plus, the church is full of people who want to impose their self-will on others remake the church in their image. "No, you have to do it like this, that is how we do it in Egypt." Then the next guy comes and says the oposite with the same reason. (And I've been to St. Mark's that SMSV came out of, I've sat down in a pew and had people stand up and walk away from the foreigner, it's not just a perceived problem).

SMSV is a great place in that people who have not felt they have any place in the church feel at home. People who have never served before serve there. People who have always felt like second class at best feel that it is their church. This is wonderful. But they're too accepting, not just accepting people, not just rejecting self-will and bullying, but accepting everything, being afraid to rightly divide the word of truth for fear of offending. So there is an exceptionally strong evangelical influence, to the point where even the priests have been sucked in. It is not a malicious movement though, it is a reaction to another wrong.

Now, wanting to teach true Orthodoxy to those who have been fed only Orthodoxy-lite is laudable. A zeal for the truth is wonderful. But it has to be done carefully.

If we just go correcting with a firm hand, pointing out what is wrong everywhere, criticizing, etc., if we allow ourselves the tone of that blog post, which we are all tempted to take and feel comfortable in, how will it be perceived?

It will feel to them just like the ignorant people who push arbitrary made-up rules to feel good being able to tell others what to do. It won't matter that what's being said is the truth, it will be brushed aside as the same bullying, the same stupidity that drove them out in the first place.

It is not the role of the church to dictate to people who to live their lives. God allows us freedom to sin or not, to follow him or not. The role of the Church is to invite people to the truth, to teach people the way to God, to show them His love so that they want to follow, and to guide them along the way.

If we want others to want Orthodoxy, the way is not to argue with them about how wrong the way they know is. It is to show them how beautiful Orthodoxy is. The only way to do that is to live Orthodox lives that are filled with the presence of Christ so that other people want to live that live. Not yelling at them angrily about how much better the love of Christ is experienced in the narrow way of Orthodoxy.

It is always tempting to correct other people. It's the Coptic pass-time. But it's always wrong to correct others if it is out of anger, or frustration, or anything other than love and a desire for their salvation. Those who are called to fight heresy are few and far between, and great, like St. Athanasius.

God doesn't need us to save the Church. If we focus on our own salvation, He may choose to use us in small ways. But that is the only way, the inner way, not to start a war as if we were qualified to teach it, not through self calling.

So I hope that your efforts are fruitful, and productive, and a light to the world. But I have to say be careful, dont' over reach, don't presume, and don't correct out frustration. Only God can save the Church, not our own efforts. What you are proposing is a good work. But be very careful that Satan doesn't twist it subtly to his purposes.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: surajiype on July 09, 2013, 12:39:20 AM
I totally second Jonathan's response. I am OO myself from the Indian church, and we have some pseudo-protestant trends rising once in a while.
But correcting someone or teaching the Orthodox faith much less defending the Orthodox faith requires a substantial amount of spiritual maturity, ascesis , prayer and self-purity. I write as someone who has been down the path and regret how stupid I was when I was younger.
Zeal for our Holy Faith and our Holy Orthodox Church is good, a gift of the Spirit to be treasured, so don't loose it amongst the many temptations this world will throw, but go about this business with caution, knowing in your heart that you are taking a heavy responsibility for which you may be called to account.
As Jonathan said, don't overreach, your efforts must bring back people to the Church not cause them to go farther away.

Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on July 09, 2013, 01:52:55 AM
Thank you Orthodox11 and Alpo.

What Jonathan and surajiype write is important. It depends a lot on the person you're talking to as well. Some people will really listen when you tell them something while others will get extremely defensive.

Reading that dissidentcopts blog post, it's not nearly as bad in Sweden (flutes are used sometimes...?).

It would be nice with some kind of OO project though. We really don't have much easy to find resources on the internet compared to others.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: dzheremi on July 09, 2013, 03:17:46 AM
Just going by what I can find on Youtube about Oriental Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism, I think it would be extremely beneficial if someone with knowledge of both Amharic and English could provide English translations of the many, many videos coming out of the EOTC that address the encroachment of Protestantism upon Orthodoxy. Some appear to be quite in-depth in a way that I have not seen from my own church (I remember HH Pope Shenouda III addressing particular Protestant sects, but then his writings were never very well-translated, either).

For those of you who have never seen them, I am referring to videos like this one on the "Protestantawi Jihad" against Ethiopian Orthodoxy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47C_SCkjIA). The Tewahedo have made a lot of efforts against Protestantism, which is great to see given the success of various Protestant sects in Ethiopia, largely at the expense of Orthodoxy. We in the other OO churches ought to be doing the same, before we end up in a similar situation.

Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on July 09, 2013, 03:35:44 AM
Some of it is a little too hard maybe (whole enemy thing) but I agree with and have noticed myself what he writes under "Religious Dangers"...

Quote
Dangers of the Diaspora
by Bar Yohanon
Fr. Dale A. Johnson is a Syrian Orthodox Priest formerly a clergyman of the United Methodist Church

Recently I did a thought experiment in Christology. I asked myself what would happen if we found the DNA of Jesus? How would this affect the theological formulation of the Son of God? First of all, what would his chromosomes looks like? Most humans have 46 chromosomes, twenty-three from the mother and twenty-three from the father. Would half the chromosomes of Jesus be human and the other half of the Holy Spirit?. In other words, "Conceived of the Holy Spirit" fully human and fully God.

With these questions one can see the Christological dialectic emerging. But in this case we have scientific facts before us. If we had the DNA of Jesus we would know once and for all if He were fully God or fully man. Or would we know. Would we recognise the DNA of God? From the standpoint of natural reason we would have all the evidence before us. But is it possible that there might be information that lies outside of the natural paradigm? If our paradigm is not correct them we can not interpret the evidence correctly.

I bring this question before us to suggest how it is possible that we might not recognise evidence before our very eyes. It is one of the problems Christians from the Middle East who have migrated to the West. They may have a view of the world that does not correspond to the realities of the western world and thereby not perceive correctly.

In a Syriac dispute poem, there is a dialogue between Joseph and Mary. Mary informs Joseph that she is pregnant. Joseph asks who is the man who violated her. Mary tells him it was not a man but an angel. Joseph cannot believe this. He warns Mary not to tell this to him again. Again he asks who led her astray. Mary gets slightly angry and insists that Joseph believe her. But Joseph cannot believe her and is greatly troubled. Not until in a dream that night does he understand that Mary is carrying the Lord of the Universe. His natural mind could not see this possibility even though Mary told him, a firsthand witness. Mary's information does not fit into his natural view of the world so he does not recognise the evidence before him.

I say all this to suggest how it is possible to not recognise the dangers to Syriac Christians in the Diaspora in Europe and the west. Christians who come from the Middle East have lived for centuries in the context of an Islamic dominated society. They have faced hostile governments, religious and ethnic bigotry. The paradigm of their reality is formed before they move to the West and it does not always fit the New World in which they now live.

In Europe and America, members of the Syriac Diaspora no longer live in a Moslem dominated culture. For the most part they live in a post-Christian culture primarily Protestant. In the Middle East it was easy to identify the enemy. He was the one who called you "gower". He was the one who said it was illegal for you to repair your churches and speak your language. He was the one who kidnapped your children and confiscated your property. In the West the dangers are far more subtle and pernicious. The trouble is that we do not recognise the dangers even though they are in front of our eyes.

Religious Dangers

Generally among Christians in the Middle East there is solidarity. On the most fundamental level Christians of any denominations are recognised as Christians. As a monk in Turkey once told me, "If you are baptised then you are a Christian and we are brothers." In the West this may not always be so. Many evangelical Protestants do not look upon Syriac Christians as "saved". This means that they do not view Syriac Christians as Christians at all. Unless one accepts Jesus Christ as his or her personal saviour by praying the sinner's prayer, one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This specific formulation is characterised in the four spiritual laws of Campus Crusade for Christ, which is an evangelical organisation in Universities and Schools all over the world. Anyone who listens to Billy Graham, perhaps the most famous preacher in America will hear at the end of every sermon a call for people to come to the front of the podium and give their heart to Jesus. Even though Syriac Christians in the Diaspora have been baptised, this makes no difference to the evangelical Christian. Infant baptism does not count. You must be of "the age of accountability". This means that you must be old enough to consciously understand that you are a sinner and must repent and ask God for forgiveness. The reason for not recognising the form of Christianity that Syriac Christians bring to the West is that evangelical Protestants do not have a sacramental view. Their paradigm of reality blocks out seeing the spiritual miracle in the Syriac people( I shall comment on the spiritual miracle of the Syriac people later in this essay).

Syriac Christians often view Protestants in the West as one and the same. Many, if not most see Protestants as fellow Christians because they are baptised. This is precisely where the problem lies. This paradigm works in the Middle East because most Christians come from sacramental Churches except for a few protestant groups. But in the lands of the Diaspora, Protestants vary greatly and we must relate to them differently.

This naivete has been evident in Russia where the Russian Orthodox Church opened its arms to missionaries from the West. They saw them as fellow Christians coming to help them. But in fact the Church experienced a terrible assault from evangelical Christians and other groups not even considered by Protestants as Christian. The Russian Orthodox Church thought that this fellow Christians would respect their spiritual heritage and identification. What they did not realise is that Protestants did not view them in the same way. They felt free to pillage the church by planting doubts and questioning the legitimacy of the Orthodox Church.

There were also Jehovah Witness, Mormon, and Seventh Day Adventists who brought their doctrines into Russia. These groups savagely attacked the Christians of Russia in the same way they attack the Christians of the Diaspora. They use scripture to prove that their particular theologies are correct and convert Syriac Christians to their denomination. For the most part, Syriac Christians of the Diaspora are poorly prepared to defend themselves against such Bible based arguments. Knowledge of the scriptures is very low among Syriac Christians and because Syriac Christians love the Gospel they are particularly vulnerable to the predatory nature of some Protestant and cult groups.

Recently I visited a Syrian Orthodox priest in Switzerland. I was happy to see him teaching several bible study groups. He admitted that some of his families had been divided by influences from what he called "Protestants." Upon further questioning it was clear that he made no distinction between the various protestant groups who were impacting some of his congregation. Through his clergy associations he was familiar with Calvinist and Reformed Protestants. He thought they were all like these Protestants who were quite liberal. He could not understand how some of the evangelical protestants were so aggressive with some of his people. He appreciated our discussion for it helped to clarify for him the differences he was beginning to notice.

Secular Dangers

Mainline Protestant groups for the most part will not directly encourage Syriac Cbristians to leave their churches. But in some ways they are more dangerous to the Syriac Diaspora. Liberal social attitudes invade the Syriac Church through contact with the young people primarily. Issues such as birth control, abortion, sexual relations outside of marriage, homosexuality, divorce, and euthanasia are considered to be broadly permissible in varying degrees. Syriac Christians coming from the Middle East have very conservative and historic mores. Because the Church out of modesty and cultural conditioning, they have been relatively silent on these subjects. It has put our young people in conflict and created doubts about the authority and relativity of the Church. These cultural mores of the West seem enlightened to some of our youth and a dichotomy arises in their minds so that they feel they have to choose between the secular culture and the Church. The mainline Churches embody of these secular views. In ecumenical councils there has been conflicts between the moral and ethical perspectives of the Orthodox Churches and Churches of the West. Some Orthodox Churches have pulled out of the World Council of Churches for this very reason.

The Roman Catholic Church is much more in line with the social mores and sacramental perceptions of the Syriac Christians of the Diaspora. Fortunately, the Catholic Church is less of a threat to the Diaspora. The theological arrogance of the past suggesting that they are the one true church has given way to more enlightened acceptance of the legitimacy of the See of Antioch and the Churches associated with it.

The more sacramental a church is the more it is aligned with the views of the Syriac Diaspora. Anglican, Lutheran, and Methodist Protestants have varying degrees of sacramental perspectives. Although protestant, they are vastly different than groups on the other end of the spectrum such as Assembly of God, Pentecostal, some Baptist denominations (There are 42 Baptist denominations in the USA), and cult groups previously mentioned. In the middle are Calvinist groups such as the Reformed, Presbyterian, Nazarene, and Covenant churches.

The Miracle

The miracle of the Syriac Christians is that they have been saved by God through centuries of oppression and persecution. By my own count at least 38 ethnic cleansings have occurred in the regions of the Fertile Crescent. Syriac Christians have faced the sword and the bullet, the politicians and the police yet somehow survived. They rebuilt their churches and villages again and again. They migrated to new lands and still the language of Jesus is heard in their homes and in their hearts. The danger of freedom in the West threatens Syriac Christians as never before.

Drugs, divorce, and the very nature of the Diaspora are pulling families and the religious culture apart.

I believe God has saved the Syriac Christians for a reason. Syriac Christians are a holy remnant. To go back to the thought experiment I used at the beginning of this essay, we can say that some of the protestant groups would look at the genetic data of Jesus purely in a scientific and materialist way. There would be no supernatural considerations and therefore even if presented to the sense it would not be perceived. In the same way Joseph did not perceive the miracle before him in the pregnancy of Mary.

Only when Mary came to Joseph in a dream did he finally "see" the miracle. The Syriac Christians can be to the post-protestant culture of Europe and the West a new light. We are the Angel and the Diaspora is the dream. It is a dream that came true for the people of the Diaspora, finding a land of freedom. But it can be a dream come true in another way. It can be a dream for the West to awaken them out of their naturalist and materialistic hallucination. We have an obligation to proclaim the Gospel to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Perhaps in the third millennium, a light from the East will appear once again through the Syriac Diaspora. So whether we are looking at the chromosomes or Christ or even the chromosomes of Christ we can see the miracle of creation and the creator himself.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 09, 2013, 09:08:26 AM
Reading the dissidentcopts entry, for example, I have to say that I'm completely sympathetic to the frustration that comes through the tone there.

But I would urge caution. Before taking a heavy hand to this problem, we have to ask why did it arise?

Everything you’ve typed is sound advice, Jonathan, and as I hope you can tell, it was the path we had chosen from the start.  I linked the blog post not because I approve of the combative tone (I don't - although like you I do understand the frustration and share the author's sentiment in terms of the actual complaints made) but as just one example of the many complaints made about this sort of thing online and in the real world.

No one here is advocating a “heavy hand”.  This is an effort that must be carried out with caution, humility, and above all, love.  The mistakes that were made may have been made with the best of intentions as you describe, but they are mistakes still.  Addressing them, at least having the conversation, is necessary.  For the most part, whether it’s because we  don’t want to offend anybody or in the interests in displaying the kind of prideful humility that makes a public show of saying, “It’s not for me to correct anyone about anything ever because I’m a sinner”, so far we’ve been shying away from doing anything more than griping about this on the internet and at youth meetings, basically preaching to the choir, and all the while the frustration simmers on the one side and a generation of youth are led astray on the other.  It’s time to have the conversation.

If we consider SMSV for example, it did not arise in a vacuum. It arose with the best intentions. There was no desire to make an evangelical community with an Orthodox veneer. The problem was that many of the youth were leaving the church because their culture was not egyptian, but north american. They felt like foreigners in their own church.

SMSV is a great place in that people who have not felt they have any place in the church feel at home. People who have never served before serve there. People who have always felt like second class at best feel that it is their church. This is wonderful. But they're too accepting, not just accepting people, not just rejecting self-will and bullying, but accepting everything, being afraid to rightly divide the word of truth for fear of offending. So there is an exceptionally strong evangelical influence, to the point where even the priests have been sucked in. It is not a malicious movement though, it is a reaction to another wrong.

This is valuable information to have, and I thank you for it.  It seems that, as frequently happens, we have once again confused acculturating in the West with accepting heterodox faith and practice.

For many people in our Oriental Orthodox communities Orthodoxy = the “faith of the homeland” and Protestantism or Catholicism = “the faith of the land of immigration” and we start thinking that the differences are mostly “cultural” when they’re anything but. We can make the Faith relevant to the youth and the Western born without adopting Protestant errors in faith and practice.

I honestly think that with a little education, presented in a gentle, loving manner, people will see the truth for themselves.

Now, wanting to teach true Orthodoxy to those who have been fed only Orthodoxy-lite is laudable. A zeal for the truth is wonderful. But it has to be done carefully.

If we just go correcting with a firm hand, pointing out what is wrong everywhere, criticizing, etc., if we allow ourselves the tone of that blog post, which we are all tempted to take and feel comfortable in, how will it be perceived?

Amen.  We agree here.


It is not the role of the church to dictate to people who to live their lives. God allows us freedom to sin or not, to follow him or not. The role of the Church is to invite people to the truth, to teach people the way to God, to show them His love so that they want to follow, and to guide them along the way.

I agree here as well, but with one caveat: God gave people free will, and what they do with that in their private lives is their own business, but our corporate worship is another thing.  Free will doesn’t cover the right introduce heterodox faith and practice into the Orthodox Church.  I don’t recommend reading Rick Warren or Joyce Meyers books or listening to “pop Christian” music, as you’re bound to pick up some bad theology there, but if that’s what you want to do in your private life (not you, Jonathan, but a general “you”) then go for it.  Once you try to introduce into the life of the Church, however, especially the life of the youth, then it becomes problematic.

If we want others to want Orthodoxy, the way is not to argue with them about how wrong the way they know is. It is to show them how beautiful Orthodoxy is. The only way to do that is to live Orthodox lives that are filled with the presence of Christ so that other people want to live that live. Not yelling at them angrily about how much better the love of Christ is experienced in the narrow way of Orthodoxy.

Amen, not yelling, but showing them the joys of the narrow gate and the spiritual poverty of the wide gate.

It is always tempting to correct other people. It's the Coptic pass-time. But it's always wrong to correct others if it is out of anger, or frustration, or anything other than love and a desire for their salvation. Those who are called to fight heresy are few and far between, and great, like St. Athanasius.

It’s not about correcting people, per se, but correcting behaviors.  Of course we can’t all be St. Athanasius (may his prayers be with us) but this doesn’t absolve us of our duty as Christians to speak up when we see something wrong in the Church, even if all that means is to make our hierarchs aware and let them take the wheel.  What love are we showing to the youth if we see them being led astray and shrug and say, “Not my problem”?


God doesn't need us to save the Church. If we focus on our own salvation, He may choose to use us in small ways. But that is the only way, the inner way, not to start a war as if we were qualified to teach it, not through self calling.

Amen.  God doesn’t need anyone to “save the Church”.  No one here is under any delusions about that.  Focusing on our own salvation and keeping our own sins before our eyes when we do any work for the Church, or when we think of correcting, in love, anyone else is the only way to go.  That said, it doesn’t free us of our responsibility of speaking up when we see something very wrong happening in our Church.

Thanks again for all your sound advice.  Pray for my weakness.

I totally second Jonathan's response. I am OO myself from the Indian church, and we have some pseudo-protestant trends rising once in a while.
But correcting someone or teaching the Orthodox faith much less defending the Orthodox faith requires a substantial amount of spiritual maturity, ascesis , prayer and self-purity. I write as someone who has been down the path and regret how stupid I was when I was younger.
Zeal for our Holy Faith and our Holy Orthodox Church is good, a gift of the Spirit to be treasured, so don't loose it amongst the many temptations this world will throw, but go about this business with caution, knowing in your heart that you are taking a heavy responsibility for which you may be called to account.
As Jonathan said, don't overreach, your efforts must bring back people to the Church not cause them to go farther away.

Amen.  Thank you for this excellent advice.  Pray for us.

It would be nice with some kind of OO project though. We really don't have much easy to find resources on the internet compared to others.

This is true.  We need to work on this.  I’m sure Apu Jose isn’t the only one looking to address this issue in his local community who is in search of resources on this issue from an Oriental Orthodox perspective.

Just going by what I can find on Youtube about Oriental Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism, I think it would be extremely beneficial if someone with knowledge of both Amharic and English could provide English translations of the many, many videos coming out of the EOTC that address the encroachment of Protestantism upon Orthodoxy. Some appear to be quite in-depth in a way that I have not seen from my own church (I remember HH Pope Shenouda III addressing particular Protestant sects, but then his writings were never very well-translated, either).

For those of you who have never seen them, I am referring to videos like this one on the "Protestantawi Jihad" against Ethiopian Orthodoxy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47C_SCkjIA). The Tewahedo have made a lot of efforts against Protestantism, which is great to see given the success of various Protestant sects in Ethiopia, largely at the expense of Orthodoxy. We in the other OO churches ought to be doing the same, before we end up in a similar situation.

Amen.  I was actually in touch with one of the guys who made those videos awhile back and we shared resources with one another.  I’m going to see if I can find his contact info again.  This is a great idea, dzheremi!

Some of it is a little too hard maybe (whole enemy thing) but I agree with and have noticed myself what he writes under "Religious Dangers"...

Quote
Dangers of the Diaspora
by Bar Yohanon
Fr. Dale A. Johnson is a Syrian Orthodox Priest formerly a clergyman of the United Methodist Church

Recently I did a thought experiment in Christology. I asked myself what would happen if we found the DNA of Jesus? How would this affect the theological formulation of the Son of God? First of all, what would his chromosomes looks like? Most humans have 46 chromosomes, twenty-three from the mother and twenty-three from the father. Would half the chromosomes of Jesus be human and the other half of the Holy Spirit?. In other words, "Conceived of the Holy Spirit" fully human and fully God.

With these questions one can see the Christological dialectic emerging. But in this case we have scientific facts before us. If we had the DNA of Jesus we would know once and for all if He were fully God or fully man. Or would we know. Would we recognise the DNA of God? From the standpoint of natural reason we would have all the evidence before us. But is it possible that there might be information that lies outside of the natural paradigm? If our paradigm is not correct them we can not interpret the evidence correctly.

I bring this question before us to suggest how it is possible that we might not recognise evidence before our very eyes. It is one of the problems Christians from the Middle East who have migrated to the West. They may have a view of the world that does not correspond to the realities of the western world and thereby not perceive correctly.

In a Syriac dispute poem, there is a dialogue between Joseph and Mary. Mary informs Joseph that she is pregnant. Joseph asks who is the man who violated her. Mary tells him it was not a man but an angel. Joseph cannot believe this. He warns Mary not to tell this to him again. Again he asks who led her astray. Mary gets slightly angry and insists that Joseph believe her. But Joseph cannot believe her and is greatly troubled. Not until in a dream that night does he understand that Mary is carrying the Lord of the Universe. His natural mind could not see this possibility even though Mary told him, a firsthand witness. Mary's information does not fit into his natural view of the world so he does not recognise the evidence before him.

I say all this to suggest how it is possible to not recognise the dangers to Syriac Christians in the Diaspora in Europe and the west. Christians who come from the Middle East have lived for centuries in the context of an Islamic dominated society. They have faced hostile governments, religious and ethnic bigotry. The paradigm of their reality is formed before they move to the West and it does not always fit the New World in which they now live.

In Europe and America, members of the Syriac Diaspora no longer live in a Moslem dominated culture. For the most part they live in a post-Christian culture primarily Protestant. In the Middle East it was easy to identify the enemy. He was the one who called you "gower". He was the one who said it was illegal for you to repair your churches and speak your language. He was the one who kidnapped your children and confiscated your property. In the West the dangers are far more subtle and pernicious. The trouble is that we do not recognise the dangers even though they are in front of our eyes.

Religious Dangers

Generally among Christians in the Middle East there is solidarity. On the most fundamental level Christians of any denominations are recognised as Christians. As a monk in Turkey once told me, "If you are baptised then you are a Christian and we are brothers." In the West this may not always be so. Many evangelical Protestants do not look upon Syriac Christians as "saved". This means that they do not view Syriac Christians as Christians at all. Unless one accepts Jesus Christ as his or her personal saviour by praying the sinner's prayer, one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This specific formulation is characterised in the four spiritual laws of Campus Crusade for Christ, which is an evangelical organisation in Universities and Schools all over the world. Anyone who listens to Billy Graham, perhaps the most famous preacher in America will hear at the end of every sermon a call for people to come to the front of the podium and give their heart to Jesus. Even though Syriac Christians in the Diaspora have been baptised, this makes no difference to the evangelical Christian. Infant baptism does not count. You must be of "the age of accountability". This means that you must be old enough to consciously understand that you are a sinner and must repent and ask God for forgiveness. The reason for not recognising the form of Christianity that Syriac Christians bring to the West is that evangelical Protestants do not have a sacramental view. Their paradigm of reality blocks out seeing the spiritual miracle in the Syriac people( I shall comment on the spiritual miracle of the Syriac people later in this essay).

Syriac Christians often view Protestants in the West as one and the same. Many, if not most see Protestants as fellow Christians because they are baptised. This is precisely where the problem lies. This paradigm works in the Middle East because most Christians come from sacramental Churches except for a few protestant groups. But in the lands of the Diaspora, Protestants vary greatly and we must relate to them differently.

This naivete has been evident in Russia where the Russian Orthodox Church opened its arms to missionaries from the West. They saw them as fellow Christians coming to help them. But in fact the Church experienced a terrible assault from evangelical Christians and other groups not even considered by Protestants as Christian. The Russian Orthodox Church thought that this fellow Christians would respect their spiritual heritage and identification. What they did not realise is that Protestants did not view them in the same way. They felt free to pillage the church by planting doubts and questioning the legitimacy of the Orthodox Church.

There were also Jehovah Witness, Mormon, and Seventh Day Adventists who brought their doctrines into Russia. These groups savagely attacked the Christians of Russia in the same way they attack the Christians of the Diaspora. They use scripture to prove that their particular theologies are correct and convert Syriac Christians to their denomination. For the most part, Syriac Christians of the Diaspora are poorly prepared to defend themselves against such Bible based arguments. Knowledge of the scriptures is very low among Syriac Christians and because Syriac Christians love the Gospel they are particularly vulnerable to the predatory nature of some Protestant and cult groups.

Recently I visited a Syrian Orthodox priest in Switzerland. I was happy to see him teaching several bible study groups. He admitted that some of his families had been divided by influences from what he called "Protestants." Upon further questioning it was clear that he made no distinction between the various protestant groups who were impacting some of his congregation. Through his clergy associations he was familiar with Calvinist and Reformed Protestants. He thought they were all like these Protestants who were quite liberal. He could not understand how some of the evangelical protestants were so aggressive with some of his people. He appreciated our discussion for it helped to clarify for him the differences he was beginning to notice.

Secular Dangers

Mainline Protestant groups for the most part will not directly encourage Syriac Cbristians to leave their churches. But in some ways they are more dangerous to the Syriac Diaspora. Liberal social attitudes invade the Syriac Church through contact with the young people primarily. Issues such as birth control, abortion, sexual relations outside of marriage, homosexuality, divorce, and euthanasia are considered to be broadly permissible in varying degrees. Syriac Christians coming from the Middle East have very conservative and historic mores. Because the Church out of modesty and cultural conditioning, they have been relatively silent on these subjects. It has put our young people in conflict and created doubts about the authority and relativity of the Church. These cultural mores of the West seem enlightened to some of our youth and a dichotomy arises in their minds so that they feel they have to choose between the secular culture and the Church. The mainline Churches embody of these secular views. In ecumenical councils there has been conflicts between the moral and ethical perspectives of the Orthodox Churches and Churches of the West. Some Orthodox Churches have pulled out of the World Council of Churches for this very reason.

The Roman Catholic Church is much more in line with the social mores and sacramental perceptions of the Syriac Christians of the Diaspora. Fortunately, the Catholic Church is less of a threat to the Diaspora. The theological arrogance of the past suggesting that they are the one true church has given way to more enlightened acceptance of the legitimacy of the See of Antioch and the Churches associated with it.

The more sacramental a church is the more it is aligned with the views of the Syriac Diaspora. Anglican, Lutheran, and Methodist Protestants have varying degrees of sacramental perspectives. Although protestant, they are vastly different than groups on the other end of the spectrum such as Assembly of God, Pentecostal, some Baptist denominations (There are 42 Baptist denominations in the USA), and cult groups previously mentioned. In the middle are Calvinist groups such as the Reformed, Presbyterian, Nazarene, and Covenant churches.

The Miracle

The miracle of the Syriac Christians is that they have been saved by God through centuries of oppression and persecution. By my own count at least 38 ethnic cleansings have occurred in the regions of the Fertile Crescent. Syriac Christians have faced the sword and the bullet, the politicians and the police yet somehow survived. They rebuilt their churches and villages again and again. They migrated to new lands and still the language of Jesus is heard in their homes and in their hearts. The danger of freedom in the West threatens Syriac Christians as never before.

Drugs, divorce, and the very nature of the Diaspora are pulling families and the religious culture apart.

I believe God has saved the Syriac Christians for a reason. Syriac Christians are a holy remnant. To go back to the thought experiment I used at the beginning of this essay, we can say that some of the protestant groups would look at the genetic data of Jesus purely in a scientific and materialist way. There would be no supernatural considerations and therefore even if presented to the sense it would not be perceived. In the same way Joseph did not perceive the miracle before him in the pregnancy of Mary.

Only when Mary came to Joseph in a dream did he finally "see" the miracle. The Syriac Christians can be to the post-protestant culture of Europe and the West a new light. We are the Angel and the Diaspora is the dream. It is a dream that came true for the people of the Diaspora, finding a land of freedom. But it can be a dream come true in another way. It can be a dream for the West to awaken them out of their naturalist and materialistic hallucination. We have an obligation to proclaim the Gospel to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Perhaps in the third millennium, a light from the East will appear once again through the Syriac Diaspora. So whether we are looking at the chromosomes or Christ or even the chromosomes of Christ we can see the miracle of creation and the creator himself.

Thank you for this!  This is an excellent article.  Do you know where I could contact the author?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on July 09, 2013, 09:38:19 AM
Unfortunately I don't have any contact info but I know he travels around a lot; China, Tur Abdin, etc.

Here is his China blog: http://daleinchina.wordpress.com/ (seems to be the most recent thing from him).

Father Dale A. Johnson, a Syriac Orthodox missionary priest, is on temporary sabbatical in China seeking out the history of contributions of Syriac Christians in China

In another article by him about an old Syriac last supper icon he writes:

Quote
Perhaps one of the purest and most distinct Syriac icons is of the Last Supper. It has no Byzantine parallel. It is a unique contribution in the world of sacred art. The first thing we notice about this work of art is that the table is round. In so many Syriac churches we find DaVinci’s Last Supper where we look across the long table at Christ and his disciples. While this image is not an icon, it is treated as an icon in many Syriac churches. This is sad when we have a supreme iconic images within our own tradition.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 09, 2013, 12:43:25 PM
Thanks!  I'll try to track him down. Should be like playing "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" :)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Samn! on July 09, 2013, 02:21:31 PM
I'm by no means Oriental Orthodox, but for different reasons I started a blog here: http://miaphysitism.blogspot.com/ (http://miaphysitism.blogspot.com/) where I started translating from Arabic some of the writings of Sawirus ibn al-Muqaffa'.... I've been meaning to get back to it eventually, but it didn't really get that much attention when I was actively updating it. In any case, I'd be happy to help with translations of Arabic texts. What I would suggest you do as a first step is to try to create a list of people who are willing and able to translate Amharic, Arabic, Armenian, and Syriac materials, figure out which materials would be best to translate first given available resources, and then try your best to work closely with clergy...
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 09, 2013, 03:33:37 PM
Samn!, thanks for your help, man!  That is awesome.  We were just talking about our need for exactly that kind of work.  Prayer works.  God bless your service.  I'll pm you.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Salpy on July 10, 2013, 02:29:11 AM
I'm wondering what our EO friends have done in similar situations.  I believe with the EO's there have been some priests who have become involved in the charismatic movement:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9819.msg132980.html#msg132980

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy_and_the_Charismatic_Movement


I'm wondering if it would be helpful for our EO friends to share what was done to deal with it.  Were letters sent to bishops?  If so, did the letters help?  Sometimes its useful to see what others have done, as opposed to "reinventing the wheel," as the saying goes.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 10, 2013, 08:54:14 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy_and_the_Charismatic_Movement

LOL!  I just read the Wiki apologia article, and boy is it a joke.  It makes it seem like the Charismatic movement is a potent and widely accepted force in Eastern Orthodoxy with only a few controversial cranks like Hieromonk Seraphim Rose of blessed memory rocking to boat.  Talk about a disconnect between reality and someone’s fantasy world on the internet!

And with lines like this in abundance, it's hardly up to Wiki’s NPOV standards:

"Rev. Fr. Eusebius A. Stephanou, Th. D. of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America experienced along with other Orthodox priests an outpouring of the Holy Spirit."

I'm surprised it even exists in its present form, as Wikipedia is usually pretty conscientious about making sure their articles reflect reality. 

I wonder if it was created by someone in one of those pseudo-Orthodox movements like this one: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/02/fusing-orthodox-and-pentecostal-worship.html

Back on topic though, I truly give glory to God for the fact that when most Oriental Orthodox speak of "charismatic influence" all they really mean is priests with a Jonas Nightengale preaching style or kids singing "Christian pop" songs that originated in Charismatic or Evangelical circles in youth meetings; not the pseudo-tongues or "falling out" stuff.  If left unchecked though, I can see how the one could eventually lead to the other.

I'm wondering if it would be helpful for our EO friends to share what was done to deal with it.  Were letters sent to bishops?  If so, did the letters help?  Sometimes its useful to see what others have done, as opposed to "reinventing the wheel," as the saying goes.

Based on what folks have said on these boards over the past several years (this subject has come up from time to time in an EO context), they just pretty much let it burn itself out.  It never had much traction, and just sort of withered on it's own.

Side note: I keep waiting for someone from one of the above-mentioned pseudo-Orthodox groups to start posting here and telling us all that we're "fighting the spirit", etc. lol
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on July 10, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
Quote
If we consider SMSV for example, it did not arise in a vacuum. It arose with the best intentions. There was no desire to make an evangelical community with an Orthodox veneer.

Wrong.

I was involved in and eye witness to the circumstances that led to the formation of SMSV, and you are totally misled.

In any case, does not matter. 
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: spyridon on July 10, 2013, 07:15:26 PM
Truly prayer is the best guide to success.
I pray your important work bears fruit.
Lord have mercy!
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 10, 2013, 07:19:29 PM
Quote
If we consider SMSV for example, it did not arise in a vacuum. It arose with the best intentions. There was no desire to make an evangelical community with an Orthodox veneer.

Wrong.

I was involved in and eye witness to the circumstances that led to the formation of SMSV, and you are totally misled.

In any case, does not matter. 

Could you please elaborate, Stavro?  I'd truly like to know.

Truly prayer is the best guide to success.
I pray your important work bears fruit.
Lord have mercy!

Amen.  Thank you, Spyridon.  Your prayers are much appreciated.  This is something I actively pray about three times a day.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Nephi on July 10, 2013, 09:45:58 PM
I'm wondering what our EO friends have done in similar situations.  I believe with the EO's there have been some priests who have become involved in the charismatic movement:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9819.msg132980.html#msg132980

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy_and_the_Charismatic_Movement


I'm wondering if it would be helpful for our EO friends to share what was done to deal with it.  Were letters sent to bishops?  If so, did the letters help?  Sometimes its useful to see what others have done, as opposed to "reinventing the wheel," as the saying goes.

I heard the bishop stepped in at my parish back in the day as I've mentioned elsewhere, but I'll have to ask how it came to his attention and get back to you. The priest at the time might have opposed it even, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on July 11, 2013, 02:44:48 PM
Quote
If we consider SMSV for example, it did not arise in a vacuum. It arose with the best intentions. There was no desire to make an evangelical community with an Orthodox veneer.

Wrong.

I was involved in and eye witness to the circumstances that led to the formation of SMSV, and you are totally misled.

In any case, does not matter. 

Could you please elaborate, Stavro?  I'd truly like to know.


My reply would be immediately removed to the private forums, the land of the crazy posters.
Will send you a pm.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Mor Ephrem on July 11, 2013, 02:50:31 PM
...the private forums, the land of the crazy posters.


I love you, you make me smile.  :)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 11, 2013, 04:11:25 PM

My reply would be immediately removed to the private forums, the land of the crazy posters.
Will send you a pm.

LOL!  Okay.  I'll be waiting.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: cs on July 12, 2013, 08:36:18 AM
I completely agree with the need to address the heresy that has crept into many churches.  It is so hard to see these things happening and feel like the bishops are doing nothing about it...  I can't emphasize enough how much it grieves me.  However, I don't see how the tone of the blog (i.e. "We're looking straight at you, "Abouna") could lead to anyone to repentance, or any reaction besides defensiveness.  Would it not be better to send letters to the bishops?  What does the history of the church tell us about how the laity should deal with these problems?

Also, I am having difficulty with people posting details about the names of persons and churches involved publicly in this way.  You do not know who is reading this, and how it may cause them offense.  This is just me questioning, and praying that we continue to seek the Truth, in love.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on July 12, 2013, 09:48:12 AM
I completely agree with the need to address the heresy that has crept into many churches.  It is so hard to see these things happening and feel like the bishops are doing nothing about it...  I can't emphasize enough how much it grieves me.  However, I don't see how the tone of the blog (i.e. "We're looking straight at you, "Abouna") could lead to anyone to repentance, or any reaction besides defensiveness.  Would it not be better to send letters to the bishops?  What does the history of the church tell us about how the laity should deal with these problems?

Also, I am having difficulty with people posting details about the names of persons and churches involved publicly in this way.  You do not know who is reading this, and how it may cause them offense.  This is just me questioning, and praying that we continue to seek the Truth, in love.

I agree.  As I said earlier, "I linked the blog post not because I approve of the combative tone but as just one example of the many complaints made about this sort of thing online and in the real world".

I'm not a proponent of "calling people out" by name either.  For me, this isn't about personalities, it's about Orthodox Faith and Orthodox practice.  Fix the problem, not the blame.

To be honest, I wish this wasn't an issue in our Church at all.  Addressing it is awkward and uncomfortable, especially in public.  I hate doing it, and I hate the world knowing "our problems".  Do you think the idea of militant Chalcedonians citing our vulnerability as proof that we're outside of the Church - or jubilant Evangelical and Charismatic pseudo-missionaries gleefully wringing their hands, delighted to know that the seeds of discord they've sown have born their poison fruit - are comforting?  Addressing this, publically or otherwise, isn't fun.  It hurts.  :'(

But not addressing it - and allowing a whole generation of youth to grow up thinking this is Orthodoxy - is not an option.

I agree that the way to handle it is to write to our bishops and let them take the lead in addressing it.  We can also provide patristic resources and explain to the youth why Protestant teaching and a Protestant approach to worship can never be a part of the life of the Church.

Right now, there are only two perspectives on this being heard: the angry, frustrated voices we've already been discussing and Misguided Sixteen Year Old X posting on her facebook about how "awesome" Fancy Name Conference X was where they sang Protestant songs and studied the wisdom of our father among the saints Billy Graham.

The concerned laity need to raise a third voice; a voice that says we're not going to be vitriolic, disrespectful or belligerent, but we're not going to allow our youth to grow up with a distorted idea of what Orthodoxy is either.  We're not going to allow our corporate worship or the life of our Church to be Protestantized.

The most painful part of all this for me, and what I really want to avoid, is the possibility of someone's faith being bruised in the process.  I agree with everything you've said.  We really have to be careful, gentle, and loving.  We have to allow the Holy Spirit to do the work, and we have to allow those in authority over us (the bishops) to take the lead.  Some of them (like H.G. Anba Suriel, for instance) already are.

The other thing that bothers me is I have folks telling me all kinds of different things about the origins of this stuff in our Church.  One person says it's all an innocent mistake due to lack of education (which I'd like to believe), another says there's some kind of a built-in Protestant fifth column that wants to "reform" the Church along Protestant lines.  They both seem to have some kind of inside track that I don't have.  I'd love to know the truth.

God have mercy on His Oriental Orthodox Church and preserve it in Orthodox Faith and practice.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on July 13, 2013, 09:03:13 AM
Quote
I'm not a proponent of "calling people out" by name either.  For me, this isn't about personalities, it's about Orthodox Faith and Orthodox practice.  Fix the problem, not the blame.

Athanasius and Cyril, among many saints who combated heresy , called heretics out by name and utterly destroyed their person and ideology.

There are no politically correct saints in the history of the church. They did not care about the feeling of the heretics as much as protecting the faith.

Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on July 13, 2013, 09:11:37 AM
Quote
I'm not a proponent of "calling people out" by name either.  For me, this isn't about personalities, it's about Orthodox Faith and Orthodox practice.  Fix the problem, not the blame.

Athanasius and Cyril, among many saints who combated heresy , called heretics out by name and utterly destroyed their person and ideology.

There are no politically correct saints in the history of the church. They did not care about the feeling of the heretics as much as protecting the faith.



1 you are not a patriarch or a bishop

2. St Cyril wrote against the heresies of Nestorius but did not name him, showing the respect due to the office of his fellow patriarch, until he was deposed by the church.

We can show proper respect to our priests and bishops without condoning any errors.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on July 13, 2013, 09:37:06 AM
1. I am called to follow the lead of the saints and not of politicians like you do.
    You are ignorant about history and you think that only clergy have a role in the Church. It is not so.

2. Cyril called Nestorius a serpent and St. Shenouda, a layman, slapped the serpent on his face in Ephesus. We are talking about certain principles and not about persons, it just so happens that these persons have violated the principles and are called out for their transgression. Your approach is to try to protect the heretics by talking about how we have to respect their heresy and person because at one point of time they have sneaked into priesthood. What you are doing is advocating their agenda.

3. I do not find any reference in the history of the church about respecting heretics. If you find one, let me know. Until you do, save me your lectures about respecting heretics.






Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Hiwot on July 13, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
Stavro, he already gave you an excellent example of our father st  Cyril. Besides even the apostle rebukes those who took the internal affairs of the church to public courts . Naming people who are still ingood standing with the Church of all places on the Internet Bishops and priests alike, do you honestly think that is serving The Church? Be careful my brother. That's all I have to say.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on July 13, 2013, 03:06:04 PM
The site for this is currently in development: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Brigidsboy on July 13, 2013, 07:50:25 PM
The site for this is currently in development: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

+100

Nice work!
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on July 13, 2013, 10:06:15 PM
Yeah, see, I never said that only the clergy have a role in the church. The people are the church, not just the clergy (who are a subset of the people). It is not Abouna who prays the Liturgy, it is the people, presided over by Abouna. We can't go be passive audience members. It is the work of the people, and we must do our work. We must obey our fathers in the Lord, and never follow them against Him. We are all together responsible for receiving, safeguarding, and transmitting the Orthodox faith.

You were saying that since St. Athanasius and St. Cyril (even if you hate our current hierarchy, can we at least show these pillars the respect of suitable titles?) called out  heretics by name and destroyed their "person and ideology". The implication being that therefore it is appropriate and necessary for you to do so.

I was pointing out that they are Patriarchs. We aren't. What's appropriate for them is not necessarily appropriate for us. Paternal correction must be done with great humility, respect, and love.

I'm all for beard pulling, anathematizing, first fights, stoning, whatever it takes to preserve Orthodoxy. When that point is reached. Not as a starting point.

Even St. Athanasius and St. Cyril didn't start there. They made every effort to reconcile and restore first. This type of hostility was necessary for the sake of the salvation of the people who were being lead astray only after every other means was exhausted. And then when it came time for drastic actions, they were patriarchs, so it was appropriate for them to anathematize and fight with every means. There are times when the laity rose up as a whole to defend Orthodoxy and reject innovation. But when did individual laymen stand up and attack their clergy "destroying their persons and ideologies"?

St. Paul said that he didn't realize it was the high priest he was addressing or he would have shown more respect. Ham uncovered Noah's nakedness and was cursed for it, while Shem and Japheth covered the nakedness of their father. Which should we emulate?

I am no politician. Thank you for demonstrating the weakness of your position by resorting to ad hominem attack... but in fact I'm quite unpopular for refusing to budge on Orthodox. In fact, I carried on a lengthy discussion with one of these priests at one of these churches in question, first in person, and then by email, until they no longer responded. I expressed my concerns with their approach quite frankly. To their face. And have had no hesitation addressing my concerns to other members of the clergy, who are aware of the problem, and who are approaching it in a prudent and patient way, with knowledge greater than ours. Do you think destroying their person and ideology on anonymously on an internet forum or website is more productive and appropriate?


1. I am called to follow the lead of the saints and not of politicians like you do.
    You are ignorant about history and you think that only clergy have a role in the Church. It is not so.

2. Cyril called Nestorius a serpent and St. Shenouda, a layman, slapped the serpent on his face in Ephesus. We are talking about certain principles and not about persons, it just so happens that these persons have violated the principles and are called out for their transgression. Your approach is to try to protect the heretics by talking about how we have to respect their heresy and person because at one point of time they have sneaked into priesthood. What you are doing is advocating their agenda.

3. I do not find any reference in the history of the church about respecting heretics. If you find one, let me know. Until you do, save me your lectures about respecting heretics.







Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on July 14, 2013, 11:59:57 PM
Weakness of my position?

This is my position:

Protestantism is destroying the church. The bishops and priests are either actively involved in spreading heresy or are behaving so cowardly by ignoring the problem and do nothing.

This is my approach:

Expose them and say the truth as it is, in public, in their face and on every public forum.

You are entitled to your position and to your own approach. I did not and have no intention to challenge your "respect all heretics" approach. Maybe it works for you, but it doesn't work for me.

Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: ialmisry on July 15, 2013, 02:09:15 PM
Just going by what I can find on Youtube about Oriental Orthodoxy vs. Protestantism, I think it would be extremely beneficial if someone with knowledge of both Amharic and English could provide English translations of the many, many videos coming out of the EOTC that address the encroachment of Protestantism upon Orthodoxy. Some appear to be quite in-depth in a way that I have not seen from my own church (I remember HH Pope Shenouda III addressing particular Protestant sects, but then his writings were never very well-translated, either).

For those of you who have never seen them, I am referring to videos like this one on the "Protestantawi Jihad" against Ethiopian Orthodoxy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47C_SCkjIA). The Tewahedo have made a lot of efforts against Protestantism, which is great to see given the success of various Protestant sects in Ethiopia, largely at the expense of Orthodoxy. We in the other OO churches ought to be doing the same, before we end up in a similar situation.


I remember when I was Lutheran hearing about the missions in Ethiopia.  We actually had a minister visit once in Chicago.  They had 2.3 million members in 2007 and 5.3 million baptized members in 2008, according to their claims (which the census figures back up), approaching 10% of the population (the Protestants all together are 18.6%, well over half the percentage of Muslims, and helping to push the Orthodox percentage below 50%.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on August 09, 2013, 03:36:45 PM
Thank you, brigidsboy!

We are now starting to add articles/videos/etc. to the site.

There's also a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/returntoorthodoxy
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on August 10, 2013, 02:35:10 PM

We are now starting to add articles/videos/etc. to the site.

There's also a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/returntoorthodoxy

Ideally this site will serve as a resource bank for folks like Apu who are interested in addressing the spread of heterodox theology, materials and practice in their local parish.

If you think you have materials you'd like to contribute (articles, videos, audio files, etc.) please pm Suryoyutho or my weakness.

Above all, please pray for this service and that God may preserve His Church in Orthodoxy.  :)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on September 11, 2013, 02:44:19 PM
After receiving complaints from bishops, priests, and servants about a so-called “New Age Orthodoxy” movement in the Washington, DC area which incorporates Evangelical and Charismatic theology, materials and so-called “praise & worship” music into the life of the Coptic Orthodox Church, H.H. Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria has appointed a committee of three bishops to investigate the matter. Originally from the 5 April edition of the Coptic Orthodox Church’s official publication, el-Keraza magazine.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/pope-tawadros-takes-stand-for-orthodoxy/
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Salpy on September 21, 2013, 01:17:50 PM
It's not just the Copts, or the EO's associated with Fr. Eusebius A. Stephanou, who have experienced this.  In my internet meanderings, I encountered this blog about Charismatic influence in the Catholic Church:

http://charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/

Just skimming this blog gives me the impression that the Charismatics have made significant inroads there. 

Could any Catholics here tell us of anything that is being done to combat this?  Are there any stories about this sort of thing being fought against, and what has worked or not worked?  I would imagine input from others who have already dealt with this sort of thing would be helpful.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: dzheremi on September 21, 2013, 01:55:49 PM
From what I've been able to find, the current Roman Pope appears to approve (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303443.htm) of such things. Not sure how that affects whatever might be done about the Charismatic Catholics, but I'll bet it's not so popular these days to speak against them these days. For whatever it's worth, I never encountered such people when I was RC (only later, and only on the internet), though it appears that there is a "Catholic Charismatic Center" (http://www.asfccc.org/) here in ABQ. Maybe Wyatt can tell us about it, if he sees this. Needless to say, I don't like what I'm seeing at that webpage, though that's neither here nor there.


Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: CoptoGeek on December 19, 2013, 05:25:52 PM
In Fr. Peter Farrington's paper, "Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church", he states:

...but even as recently as November, 2009, reports in the Egyptian press described a controversy between the Coptic Orthodox and Protestant communities caused by the revelation of CD which documented plans to try to convert the Coptic Orthodox community to Protestantism in just two decades[20].

[20] The International, Nov 10, 2009.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-c


The reference doesn't work. Does anyone have the details on this matter? Thanks.




Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: sheenj on December 19, 2013, 05:39:41 PM
In Fr. Peter Farrington's paper, "Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church", he states:

...but even as recently as November, 2009, reports in the Egyptian press described a controversy between the Coptic Orthodox and Protestant communities caused by the revelation of CD which documented plans to try to convert the Coptic Orthodox community to Protestantism in just two decades[20].

[20] The International, Nov 10, 2009.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-c


The reference doesn't work. Does anyone have the details on this matter? Thanks.


This looks like the full link:
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-copts (http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-copts)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: minasoliman on December 19, 2013, 05:40:10 PM
In Fr. Peter Farrington's paper, "Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church", he states:

...but even as recently as November, 2009, reports in the Egyptian press described a controversy between the Coptic Orthodox and Protestant communities caused by the revelation of CD which documented plans to try to convert the Coptic Orthodox community to Protestantism in just two decades[20].

[20] The International, Nov 10, 2009.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-c


The reference doesn't work. Does anyone have the details on this matter? Thanks.






Sheenj beat me to it...lol...someone might need to let Fr. Peter to fix his link
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on December 19, 2013, 05:43:51 PM
In Fr. Peter Farrington's paper, "Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church", he states:

...but even as recently as November, 2009, reports in the Egyptian press described a controversy between the Coptic Orthodox and Protestant communities caused by the revelation of CD which documented plans to try to convert the Coptic Orthodox community to Protestantism in just two decades[20].

[20] The International, Nov 10, 2009.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-c


The reference doesn't work. Does anyone have the details on this matter? Thanks.


I know that in in June of 2006, the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church "warned specifically against the activities of the Southern Baptist Convention, which published materials stating explicitly that they were targeting the Coptic Orthodox Christians of Egypt for conversion". 

In 2009, one of our priests came across a CD detailing a plan to convert the Copts of Egypt to Evangelicalism within a certain amount of time.  Here (http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-copts) is a working link to the article you're referencing.

An excerpt relative to just how Evangelical-influenced some clergy are:

Quote
Bishop Bishoy, the secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church and the church leader charged with internal discipline, will officially reprimand Orthodox priests who have been accused of Evangelical sympathies in hearings scheduled for later this month.Bishop Bishoy did not respond to requests for comment, but Father Basiit said the priests are suspected of "reading too many Protestant books" and spreading Protestant ideology in their sermons. If they are found "guilty" of such crimes, the church could restrain their religious duties.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: CoptoGeek on December 19, 2013, 05:53:21 PM
Thank you, AN!
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: CoptoGeek on December 19, 2013, 05:56:59 PM

This looks like the full link:
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-copts (http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-copts)

Thank you, sheenj!
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: minasoliman on December 19, 2013, 06:29:22 PM
His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy may have had good intentions with the power given to him to purge the Church of Protestant influences, but sadly his abused his power in purging anyone who disagrees with his own personal theology as well.  :-\
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Suryoyutho on December 20, 2013, 06:50:38 AM
Thank you for noticing CoptoGeek and for the answers (sheenj, minasoliman). It is fixed on returntoorthodoxy.com, I will message abouna Peter.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: CoptoGeek on December 23, 2013, 11:48:35 AM
His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy may have had good intentions with the power given to him to purge the Church of Protestant influences, but sadly his abused his power in purging anyone who disagrees with his own personal theology as well.  :-\

I completely agree. He needs to quietly retire to a monastery and the Church needs to re-open all the cases he's brought before the Holy Synod.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on December 24, 2013, 12:49:55 AM
It is easy to blame Anba Bishoy for everything wrong because he is not popular.

Not a single excommunication or suspension from office was decided by anything less than overwhelming majority of the Synod. The most controversial one of Dr George Bebawy was not brought up by Anba Bishoy. It was raised by the previous Pope who wrote the list of accusations against Bebawy in early 80's.

The suspension of Anba Amon of Luxor was the direct result of Anba Youaness' effort.

The most troubling decision of the Synod to anathematize the book " illuminating saying " was taken with the concurrence of every single attending Bishop. The issue was brought up by Anba Moussa.

It is well known that Anba Bishoy wanted to put Priests Ma7'ary Younan and Samaan of Mukatam on trial for heresy. I wish he did, but he was never able to. He was opposed by the Pope and the other bishops.

Now that he has been stripped of his power, let us attribute all errors to him in order to excuse the rest.



Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on December 24, 2013, 02:46:26 PM
There is more than enough blame to go around for the past. Anba Bishoy's latest articles, and his working with Anba Ermia are damaging right now. If only H.E. would address the level of attention against Abouna Makari and Abouna Samaan that is being addressed against the Pope and against Orthodoxy.

It is easy to blame Anba Bishoy for everything wrong because he is not popular.

Not a single excommunication or suspension from office was decided by anything less than overwhelming majority of the Synod. The most controversial one of Dr George Bebawy was not brought up by Anba Bishoy. It was raised by the previous Pope who wrote the list of accusations against Bebawy in early 80's.

The suspension of Anba Amon of Luxor was the direct result of Anba Youaness' effort.

The most troubling decision of the Synod to anathematize the book " illuminating saying " was taken with the concurrence of every single attending Bishop. The issue was brought up by Anba Moussa.

It is well known that Anba Bishoy wanted to put Priests Ma7'ary Younan and Samaan of Mukatam on trial for heresy. I wish he did, but he was never able to. He was opposed by the Pope and the other bishops.

Now that he has been stripped of his power, let us attribute all errors to him in order to excuse the rest.




Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on December 24, 2013, 07:34:41 PM
It is well known that Anba Bishoy wanted to put Priests Ma7'ary Younan and Samaan of Mukatam on trial for heresy. I wish he did, but he was never able to. He was opposed by the Pope and the other bishops.

What were these priests teaching that was heretical?  Where can I find details about H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's investigation?

There is more than enough blame to go around for the past. Anba Bishoy's latest articles, and his working with Anba Ermia are damaging right now. If only H.E. would address the level of attention against Abouna Makari and Abouna Samaan that is being addressed against the Pope and against Orthodoxy.

What does the bolded bit mean?  What statements have been made against His Holiness the Pope?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on December 24, 2013, 07:42:15 PM
Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. Both of them conduct evangelical style public exorcisms. You can search youtube and watch these services. The differences between a true exorcism and these, which could as easily be broadcast live from an evangelical service, are obvious, and you can judge for yourself. It is sad that this is occuring in the Hanging  Church, where the Theotokos appeared to Pope Abraam and told him to go to St. Samaan, and in the Church of the mountain that was moved through the prayers of St. Samaan.

The errors of George Bebawai, posted on H.E.'s website, accuses him of running the Church secretly, from his excommunication, with H.H. as his puppet. (how on earth he would arrange that is beyond me, but presumably it has something with him being a Jew). In recent conferences it has been implied or stated that H.H. is turning the church over to the macarians (who are of course byzantine heretics), the byzantines, and the Catholics.

A wounded animal is very dangers, striking wildly.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on December 24, 2013, 08:41:04 PM
Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. Both of them conduct evangelical style public exorcisms. You can search youtube and watch these services. The differences between a true exorcism and these, which could as easily be broadcast live from an evangelical service, are obvious, and you can judge for yourself. It is sad that this is occuring in the Hanging  Church, where the Theotokos appeared to Pope Abraam and told him to go to St. Samaan, and in the Church of the mountain that was moved through the prayers of St. Samaan.

God have mercy on His Church.  I wish that His Eminence - or someone in authority - would take the appropriate actions to curtail this madness.  Why isn't this being stopped?  Orthodox priests shouldn't be able to preach Protestant doctrine or carry out Protestant practices without it being properly addressed and publically refuted.  I'd really like to know why the hierarchy isn't cracking down on this.  I'm sure the response will have something to do with the persecution, but without minimizing that horrible reality, that does not and should not mean that teachers of heresy (and both millennialism and Charismatic services of any sort, including exorcisms, constitute exactly that) should be given carte blanche.

The errors of George Bebawai, posted on H.E.'s website, accuses him of running the Church secretly, from his excommunication, with H.H. as his puppet. (how on earth he would arrange that is beyond me, but presumably it has something with him being a Jew).

This is referring exclusively to His Holiness Pope Tawadros II, corrrect?  In other words, the supposed collusion is not alleged to have taken place until relatively recently?

In recent conferences it has been implied or stated that H.H. is turning the church over to the macarians (who are of course byzantine heretics), the byzantines, and the Catholics.

Who precisely are the Macarians and how are they distinct from the Byzantines proper?  Are these Copts with Byzantine leanings?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on December 24, 2013, 10:39:26 PM

Quote
This is referring exclusively to His Holiness Pope Tawadros II, corrrect?  In other words, the supposed collusion is not alleged to have taken place until relatively recently?

Who precisely are the Macarians and how are they distinct from the Byzantines proper?  Are these Copts with Byzantine leanings?

Yes, H.H. Pope Tawadros II.

Followers of / readers of/ people of the same school as Abouna Matta el Meskeen, the late abbot of St. Macarius' monastery.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on December 25, 2013, 11:47:59 AM
Thanks for the info, Jonathan.  I wish someone was able to answer my other question though:

Quote
Why isn't this being stopped?  Orthodox priests shouldn't be able to preach Protestant doctrine or carry out Protestant practices without it being properly addressed and publically refuted.  I'd really like to know why the hierarchy isn't cracking down on this.  I'm sure the response will have something to do with the persecution, but without minimizing that horrible reality, that does not and should not mean that teachers of heresy (and both millennialism and Charismatic services of any sort, including exorcisms, constitute exactly that) should be given carte blanche.

The fact that the hierarchy isn't coming down hard on Protestant influence makes it seem as if such activities have the Church's tacit approval and gives its proponents the wiggle room they need to continue in their dangerous activities.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on December 25, 2013, 11:11:17 PM
Quote
There is more than enough blame to go around for the past. Anba Bishoy's latest articles, and his working with Anba Ermia are damaging right now.

We are being selective in choosing who we want to attack and who we are going to excuse.

For years, Bishop Bachomius and his general bishop, Tawadrous, have been protecting Priest Anderawes Iskander, a priest in their diocese, and who is a heretic and denies the sacraments openly and attends all the Protestant prayers, from any trial. It is reported that Anba Bishoy wants to put him on trial, but the two have been opposing this move.

Abona Dawoud Lam3y, who has been attacked left and right for telling Orthodox youth not to attend Protestant prayers, is a priest in the diocese of the general bishop-made-pope Tawadrous. Not one single word of support by this general bishop, although the attacks were vicious and cruel, and made in public. What are the true colors of this man? Why isn't he saying anything?

The only moves he did is to go to Vatican and to establish a unity council with Protestants, giving credit to their claims of being one and further aiding them in destroying the church. The only time he talked about Protestants was to mildly warn against them because of "identity" issues, never criticized their faith.  

The danger now, in this moment, is Protestantising the Coptic Church. Anba Bishoy, with all his mistakes and ego, cannot be blamed for this.

Quote
The fact that the hierarchy isn't coming down hard on Protestant influence makes it seem as if such activities have the Church's tacit approval and gives its proponents the wiggle room they need to continue in their dangerous activities.
 

Because the Hierarchy could be either:

1) Traitors or
2) Politicians (indifferent and pragmatic) or
3) Cowards or
4) Protestants (like Bishop Youaness, who was never baptized in an Orthodox church)  
(http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/Themes/Pascha2010/images/warnpmod.gif) By now you should know that you can't call people heretics on the public boards.  You can disagree with their teachings, and even say they teach heresy, but you can't just say a person "is a heretic."  Consequently, you are back on post moderation for 30 days.
Salpy
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Jonathan on December 26, 2013, 07:58:55 AM
Maybe if all the great teachers hadn't been driven to the fringe, or right out of the church by Anba Bishoy, there would be more knowledge and less need for a will to fight ignorance with trials :)

I'm actually pretty liberal in placing blame all around :)

I think it's to early to judge Pope Tawadros on this. We'll see if the house gets cleaned or not. H.H. may have different priorities and emphasize than me, but that's not on the same level as blackmail and summary excommunications.

I don't think it makes sense to blame the whole synod for past excommunications. Pope Shenouda basically made the decisions, and Anba Bishoy had his ear. I think it's fair to blame the Synod for yielding their authority and not living up to their responsibility, but I don't think they effectively had much say. Others made mistakes, and made decisions based on a less than developed understanding of Orthodoxy. But today, Anba Bishoy is disturbing the peace of the Church, and taking away an environment of peace where these things might be solved. When routing out Protestant influences is done in a way on par with the Inquisition, it's going to leave a bad taste for everyone. People who would otherwise support upholding Orthodoxy are going to be put off by the lack of charity in dealing with it.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Gorazd on December 26, 2013, 08:04:59 AM
Priest Anderawes Iskander, a priest in their diocese, and who is a heretic and denies the sacraments openly and attends all the Protestant prayers,

4) Protestants (like Bishop Youaness, who was never baptized in an Orthodox church)  

Can you or anyone else please write more details about these two clergymen?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: CoptoGeek on December 26, 2013, 11:49:51 AM
Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. 

Yes, you are correct. I thought he was confronted on this and recanted this belief but it doesn't seem to be so.

Both of them conduct evangelical style public exorcisms. You can search youtube and watch these services. The differences between a true exorcism and these, which could as easily be broadcast live from an evangelical service, are obvious, and you can judge for yourself.

I guess these were just "charismatic" or "evangelical" services, too.

Quote
Exorcisms in Russia: From an Eyewitness

When I was in Russian, I stayed near a monastery where a priest lived who performed exorcisms. The rite of exorcism in the Orthodox Church is a formal service that has been the same for centuries. It includes generous amount of holy water, and is highlighted by the reading of the Gospel passages wherein Christ drives the demons out of people and demonstrates His authority over them. Just as the demons in the Gospels wail and lament when Christ appears, so they wail during these services.

Once the services are in full swing, the demons being to show themselves. One woman rages in a male voice, another person shakes violently, another shrieks in fear, yet another is thrown to the floor, losing consciousness. They scream their hatred for the priest, vowing to have their revenge as he douses them with holy water. Some demons make jokes some sound like dissatisfied customers (“I don’t have to take this!”), others are just raw anger and hatred. But the loudest noise always seems to be that of animals: mooing, crowing, and especially barking and growling.

Not all of the victims were adults. I saw one young girl being dragged and carried up to the priest. She was flailing and howling and wailing. When the priest finally came close enough to douse her with holy water, she moaned in a ghostly voice, which trailed off as she stopped her thrashing, finally collapsing. I saw another boy, held in his mother’s arms, who has the appearance of a poor, special ed. Child. He looked as though he was in distress and pain, just before he vomited on the floor.

Everywhere wailing, moaning, barking, convulsions, shrieking. It was a vision of hell. “Yes, you may attend,” the priest permitted me after I asked to witness and exorcism, “But stand near the icon of the Mother of God, and say the Jesus Prayer (‘Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner’).” This is not something to be taken lightly. It is not a horror film, not a ghost story, but pure evil tormenting real human beings.

Naturally, I could not help but wonder why these people are possessed. But it is not right to inquire—they are sufferer and it is not for me to judge. But there are cases when the demon itself provides the answer. One woman was being exorcised when, to the priest’s astonishment, the demon informed him that God Himself does not will that she be released, “She killed three babies in her womb,” the demon revealed, “I am here to punish her.” Very many ended up in their pitiful state after going to “psychic healers.” They had turned to these so-called healers with some physical illness, or simply in search of pseudo-spirituality, and received some relief of fulfillment. But then they became demonically possessed, for the “healing” or “experience” was made possible solely through the psychic’s own pacts with demonic powers. These people, however, were impossible to help if they were not prepared to abandon the pseudo-spirituality and embrace the spiritual life of the Church, putting their trust in Christ

...

The service concludes and I am in awe. The priest’s countenance us one of intense concentration, authority and sternness. Throughout the service he held the holy water sprinkler like I mighty whip; now he holds the cross as an invincible shield and a trophy of victory. His long, grey hair is a bit tousled, and sweat glistens on his forehead. Those poor people kiss the cross and clamor desperately to receive his blessing, then gradually leave the church. They feel better. In spite of the demon’s torment during the service, they now feel relieved and strengthened. They can go on, they are no longer overcome by despair.

Some people come to the exorcisms thinking that they are possessed, but they are not—it is a sort of spiritual hypochondria. Others speak blasphemies against God and man, not realizing whose mouthpiece they are being, and therefore will not even consider going to church. But wonders never cease. Once when the Communists were in power, some top party members were “touring” the monastery, laughing at its out datedness. One of these happened into the church where an exorcism was taking place. You can imagine the confusion that ensued when she began crowing involuntarily, like a rooster. She realized her great mistake in denying God, and became a Christian.

http://deathtotheworld.com/articles/exorcisms-in-russia-from-an-eyewitness/
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on December 26, 2013, 03:52:00 PM
Priest Anderawes Iskander, a priest...who is a heretic and denies the sacraments openly and attends all the Protestant prayers

God have mercy!  How is it possible for someone to remain a priest under these circumstances?!?

The danger now, in this moment, is Protestantising the Coptic Church. Anba Bishoy, with all his mistakes and ego, cannot be blamed for this.
 

I agree.  The two issues are not equivalent to my mind.  On the one hand, we have a bishop who some regard as being a bit highhanded, et cetera, and on the other we have the putrifying, vomit-inducing poison of Evangelical and Charismatic Protestant faith and practice seeping into our Church to destroy it from the inside out.

Protestants (like Bishop Youaness, who was never baptized in an Orthodox church)

Can this really be true?  God have mercy, every day I hear something horrible I never would have believed to be true about my beloved Church.

Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. 

Yes, you are correct. I thought he was confronted on this and recanted this belief but it doesn't seem to be so.

Under what circumstances did you hear he was confronted and recanted?  Why do you now believe this is not so?

I am awestruck that an Orthodox priest could openly teach heresy and not be confronted about it and given the chance to repent.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on December 31, 2013, 02:08:59 PM
Quote
H.H. may have different priorities

Priorities over protecting the Orthodox Faith? I think you are right. The General Bishop / Pope must have other priorities over the Faith. This is clear.

Quote
I think it's to early to judge Pope Tawadros on this.

I thought that the idea that they marketed regarding the general bishop-becoming-Pope is his alleged experience. This man has been GB for 23 years before he took over the Papacy. He is not a new fella or a saintly monk who came from a desert and who can be excused for the lack of action by his inexperience and needing time to settle in.

In any case, we have a clear situation regarding Priest Anderawes Iskander. I do not need to elaborate about his unorthodox character and teachings. He has been serving in Behera, under Metro. Bachomius since 1988, having been chosen and ordained by this metropolitan. He served under GB Tawadros since 1989. For 23 years, this priest served under the previous placeholder for Papacy, Metro. Bachomius and GB Tawadrous, the current Pope. They have given him the liberty to teach heresy and to participate in Protestant prayer meetings.

For 23 years !

Now the Orthodox had enough of this priest who is gaining more and more media exposure and is clear about denying the sacraments, among other heresies. He is praying with heretics in front of the satellite TV channels. Did the Metro. and the GB do anything about it? No. They are silent and they continue to support the man.

The episcopate of Aswan has issued a statement to clarify that this priest, Anderawes Iskander, has participated in a "unity" conference with Protestant in the city, without the knowledge of the bishop of the city. The statement condemned this priest for his activities.

To which the priest replied in a counter statement:
" I preach Christ from any place. I am a priest in the Coptic Church. I know the Pope since our days of service even before our respective ordinations and we have a great relation ever since. Put me on trial, if you dare."

The man is right and can afford to be insolent, because he is protected by his old friends and he knows that the GB/Pope will support him and will not allow the trial to take place. 

Now if someone criticises His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy for calling out this priest and other priests for their heresy, and you side with the GB / Pope and Metro. Bach. and give them excuses, then this person is an partner in the crime.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Stavro on January 04, 2014, 11:36:37 PM
Thanks to the 3 days fasting and to the efforts of Anba Bishoy, who lobbied against the GB / Pope and his godfather, Metro Bachomius, for protecting Protestant priests, and probably with pressure from Anba Rofael, Metro Bachomius was forced today to issue a statement to temporarily suspend the priest Anderawes Iskander.

Finally a Protestant lovers like Metro Bachomius and the puppet Pope are subdued after their long active protection of this priest.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Severian on January 26, 2014, 09:39:25 PM
^Glory be to God! I am certainly no fan of Anba Bishoy, but at least he isn't defending a heretic who openly denies the mysteries. The battle against heresy we face as Orthodox Christians of the Church of Alexandria is far greater than any war fought with weapons. However, it is a war we must win. Not because it will be easy, but because we have to, because the salvation of millions depends upon it.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on January 27, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
It's sad that this is necessary.  I'm by no means happy to see anyone publically disciplined.  May God have mercy on Abouna and lead him to true repentance and to embrace Orthodoxy.  I give glory to God that He is moving His servants the bishops to act for the preservation of the true Faith that He established for us.  May God have mercy on all involved, strengthen His bishops for the work they have to do, give those who have embraced Protestant practices, materials, and other errors a heart for repentance and a love for Orthodoxy in all things, and preserve His Church against heresy.  Kyrie eleison, kyrie eleison, kyrie eleison.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: qawe on May 11, 2015, 06:08:25 AM
Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. 

Can someone please post some video/other evidence of this?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: CharalambisMakarios on May 11, 2015, 12:31:44 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: minasoliman on May 11, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
Your home is with the Kingdom of God in the fullness of His Church  ;)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on May 11, 2015, 01:30:07 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(

It's more the fault of our Church than the fault of anyone in your old tradition.  If we were properly educating our faithful and inoculating them against the sickness of heterodoxy, we wouldn't be in this mess.  You can't "convert" an Orthodox Christian who actually knows their faith, or convince them that taking a bit of poison with their milk is a good thing.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: xOrthodox4Christx on May 11, 2015, 01:30:56 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(

I don't worry about converting others, more than I worry about how they (Protestants) consider themselves Christians and us, as polytheists. That ticks me off, since their "Christianity" didn't even exist until 1517. For 1500 years the Christianity that existed would be entirely alien to their sensibilities, and yet, they're the Christians, we're the polytheists.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: eddybear on May 11, 2015, 01:57:34 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(

I don't worry about converting others, more than I worry about how they (Protestants) consider themselves Christians and us, as polytheists. That ticks me off, since their "Christianity" didn't even exist until 1517. For 1500 years the Christianity that existed would be entirely alien to their sensibilities, and yet, they're the Christians, we're the polytheists.
Our experiences are very different. In almost 25 years of moving in Protestant / Anglican circles, I can't recall a single Protestant who considers Orthodox to be polytheists.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Cyrillic on May 11, 2015, 02:06:44 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(

I don't worry about converting others, more than I worry about how they (Protestants) consider themselves Christians and us, as polytheists. That ticks me off, since their "Christianity" didn't even exist until 1517.

In the absence of Punch I'll say it: classical German Lutheranism is nothing like modern evangelicalism. The Evangelicals' brand of Christianity probably didn't exist before the mid-19th century.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Cyrillic on May 11, 2015, 02:10:27 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(


It's more the fault of our Church than the fault of anyone in your old tradition.  If we were properly educating our faithful and inoculating them against the sickness of heterodoxy, we wouldn't be in this mess.  You can't "convert" an Orthodox Christian who actually knows their faith, or convince them that taking a bit of poison with their milk is a good thing.

If the Protestants are sincere in their religion you would expect them to want to convert everyone else in the same way that Orthodoxy wants to convert everyone else. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" and all that.

The Protestant missionaries in Egypt are cowards for not trying to convert the muslims before starting with the Copts, though.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Antonious Nikolas on May 11, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians  :'(


It's more the fault of our Church than the fault of anyone in your old tradition.  If we were properly educating our faithful and inoculating them against the sickness of heterodoxy, we wouldn't be in this mess.  You can't "convert" an Orthodox Christian who actually knows their faith, or convince them that taking a bit of poison with their milk is a good thing.

If the Protestants are sincere in their religion you would expect them to want to convert everyone else in the same way that Orthodoxy wants to convert everyone else. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" and all that.

The Protestant missionaries in Egypt are cowards for not trying to convert the muslims before starting with the Copts, though.

Agreed on both counts.  If they believe they have the true, salvific faith and we are endangering our souls by engaging in idol worship, I don't blame them for trying to convert us.  They think they are doing us the greatest of favors.  This is why I - unlike many Orthodox - believe that we should be witnessing to the heterodox whenever possible.

I do blame, however, those among the "Orthodox" who hold to a skewed ecclesiology which proclaims that "we are all one in Jesus" and "we're all parts of the Church" regardless of confession, that the differences between Evangelicalism and Orthodoxy are "largely cultural" and that heteropraxis can be appended to orthopraxis willy-nilly Frankenstein style.  The man I wish to address with the project outlined in the OP is not the sincere Protestant, but the deluded, nominally Orthodox Christian who believes in one-size-fits-all brand x Christianity.

(http://brickmuppet.mee.nu/images/4369289730_0acfdf77bb.jpg)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 15, 2018, 03:22:34 PM
I've been hearing things like this recently, and it is very concerning to me. Do you think this is a church wide issue, or primarily in those diocese in the West where there is more exposure to Protestantism?

Also, do you think the EO/OO schism does play a role in this? Do you think it would be beneficial/strengthening to do everything we can without compromising truth to enter into communion with the EO?

It sometimes seems to me as though EO has more firmly established doctrines that are more readily found. I often notice that when I have a question about the Orthodox view on things, i am looking to EO sources because i cannot find anything OO discussing the topic outside of maybe a few forum posts, which are not really reliable dogmatic sources.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: qawe on February 15, 2018, 05:20:32 PM
I've been hearing things like this recently, and it is very concerning to me. Do you think this is a church wide issue, or primarily in those diocese in the West where there is more exposure to Protestantism?

Definitely church wide.  Egypt is probably worse than the West.

With the EO thing, the grass is always greener as they say, but on this particular issue they are doing much better than the Copts.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 15, 2018, 05:40:30 PM
Egypt is probably worse than the West.


Why would Egypt be worse then the West? I don't understand.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: RaphaCam on February 15, 2018, 05:42:11 PM
It sometimes seems to me as though EO has more firmly established doctrines that are more readily found. I often notice that when I have a question about the Orthodox view on things, i am looking to EO sources because i cannot find anything OO discussing the topic outside of maybe a few forum posts, which are not really reliable dogmatic sources.
EO sources in English are much more accessible, numerous and online-published than OO ones, but if you dig hard enough, you can find plenty of OO books discussing doctrine, history, etc.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: qawe on February 15, 2018, 06:40:51 PM
Egypt is probably worse than the West.


Why would Egypt be worse then the West? I don't understand.

Coptic churches in Egypt imitate Egyptian Protestant churches to stop youth from going there.  Usually when Coptic youth in the West leave the Church they don't end up as Protestants but as nones, but most conversions in Egypt are to Protestantism.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 15, 2018, 06:51:00 PM
The influence is not always bad.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 15, 2018, 06:57:38 PM
The influence is not always bad.
It depends on what you think is good.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 15, 2018, 07:16:11 PM
The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 15, 2018, 07:26:32 PM
Egypt is probably worse than the West.


Why would Egypt be worse then the West? I don't understand.

Coptic churches in Egypt imitate Egyptian Protestant churches to stop youth from going there.  Usually when Coptic youth in the West leave the Church they don't end up as Protestants but as nones, but most conversions in Egypt are to Protestantism.

Wow I would really think this would have been more of a Western issue. Doesn't Protestantism like barely have a presence in Egypt?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 15, 2018, 08:57:05 PM
The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 15, 2018, 09:14:38 PM
The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

Because bad taste is in this year (and every year)?

Individuals make religious decisions for all kinds of personal reasons truly known only to them and God. But relentlessly chasing after marketing fads to try and retain absolutely everybody who might possibly feel unsatisfied at any time will just result in a church full of shallow, perpetually unsatisfied people.

Heresy considerations aside, why would you even want to stand around a stage while some two-bit guitar ensemble plinks out "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" when the Orthodox Liturgy is some of the most beautiful poetry and stagecraft ever devised by mankind? From where I'm sitting, having been raised on KLOVE dreck, it seems baffling. It's like giving away one's birthright for a pot of bad tasting beans that probably won't even keep people in the cafeteria in the first place, if I can mix my metaphors.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 15, 2018, 09:38:08 PM
The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

Because bad taste is in this year (and every year)?

Individuals make religious decisions for all kinds of personal reasons truly known only to them and God. But relentlessly chasing after marketing fads to try and retain absolutely everybody who might possibly feel unsatisfied at any time will just result in a church full of shallow, perpetually unsatisfied people.

Heresy considerations aside, why would you even want to stand around a stage while some two-bit guitar ensemble plinks out "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" when the Orthodox Liturgy is some of the most beautiful poetry and stagecraft ever devised by mankind? From where I'm sitting, having been raised on KLOVE dreck, it seems baffling. It's like giving away one's birthright for a pot of bad tasting beans that probably won't even keep people in the cafeteria in the first place, if I can mix my metaphors.

Here what you are talking is a personal taste of view. You will like the Islamic way of reciting for example because it is similar to what you like in orthodoxy.
But the use of a guitar is not problematic it also can be beautiful. Form is not the essential thing in christianity, the Jewish concentrating on the form and Jesus criticise that.
For me Ifeel that the gospel music is the best and most bbeautiful thing between Christians
The people who are leave and go to the Protestant not for liturgical issue..
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 15, 2018, 10:23:02 PM
The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

Because bad taste is in this year (and every year)?

Individuals make religious decisions for all kinds of personal reasons truly known only to them and God. But relentlessly chasing after marketing fads to try and retain absolutely everybody who might possibly feel unsatisfied at any time will just result in a church full of shallow, perpetually unsatisfied people.

Heresy considerations aside, why would you even want to stand around a stage while some two-bit guitar ensemble plinks out "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" when the Orthodox Liturgy is some of the most beautiful poetry and stagecraft ever devised by mankind? From where I'm sitting, having been raised on KLOVE dreck, it seems baffling. It's like giving away one's birthright for a pot of bad tasting beans that probably won't even keep people in the cafeteria in the first place, if I can mix my metaphors.

Here what you are talking is a personal taste of view. You will like the Islamic way of reciting for example because it is similar to what you like in orthodoxy.
But the use of a guitar is not problematic it also can be beautiful.

Sure can be, yes. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_H6l0uHc2Q) Most often isn't.

99% of CCM (even when it isn't outright heretical from an Orthodox standpoint) is poorly written, poorly performed, homogenized, corporate as heck, and emotionally manipulative.

This is a joke, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwwhkKPEieE) yes, but it has a lot of truth in it. Do you really want to open the Sturgeon's Law floodgates just for an off chance of getting a few Michael Card songs in the liturgy?

Form is not the essential thing in christianity, the Jewish concentrating on the form and Jesus criticise that.
For me Ifeel that the gospel music is the best and most bbeautiful thing between Christians

No, Jesus criticized hypocrisy and lack of love and mercy. He was not anti-liturgy, he was anti-empty liturgy.

Quote
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Emphasis mine.

Quote
“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;

Yet he also said to His Jewish hearers that:

Quote
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others.

Emphasis mine.

Forms are not everything, yes. But they are still important carriers of theological content.

The people who are leave and go to the Protestant not for liturgical issue..

I know they don't. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that most of the time it's really something to do with one or more of the "pelvic issues." I'd be lying if I said I didn't personally sympathize, but going Low Church pedestrian is just going to make everything far worse (as well as not really addressing the issues behind the dissatisfaction, since I'm guessing that most of the growing Evangelical churches in Egypt are pretty socially conservative anyway).
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 15, 2018, 10:24:02 PM
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people
Because part of their approach is to get you to start thinking in ways that makes them look like the only realistic choice. And because as a western cultural power they offer material and spiritual materialism benefits that The Coptic Church either never did or doesn't anymore.

Watch this: Being authentic and making the faith your own is anti-Christian. What do you think about that, and why?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 15, 2018, 10:46:29 PM
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people
Because part of their approach is to get you to start thinking in ways that makes them look like the only realistic choice. And because as a western cultural power they offer material and spiritual materialism benefits that The Coptic Church either never did or doesn't anymore.

Watch this: Being authentic and making the faith your own is anti-Christian. What do you think about that, and why?

Link?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 15, 2018, 10:53:08 PM
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people
Because part of their approach is to get you to start thinking in ways that makes them look like the only realistic choice. And because as a western cultural power they offer material and spiritual materialism benefits that The Coptic Church either never did or doesn't anymore.

Watch this: Being authentic and making the faith your own is anti-Christian. What do you think about that, and why?

Link?

I don't think he's talking about a video, he's inviting you to a thought experiment.

How do you feel about that phrase?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 16, 2018, 07:56:16 PM
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 16, 2018, 11:43:28 PM
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: WPM on February 17, 2018, 08:48:57 AM
No such thing.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: recent convert on February 17, 2018, 10:45:33 AM
I think the ancient way of preaching was to preach Christ directly from the Old Testament. The conclusion of that aspect seems to be expressed in the “2 ways” of life and death which Moses expressed in Deuteronomy 30:11-20. This seems to be the bridge between the 2 testaments in the ancient preaching. A prime example of this seems to be the conclusion of the Epistle of Barnabas and the starting point of the Didache. I do not think this pattern was exclusive to these writings but is exemplified in them. They are also probably the only surviving records that clearsly express this. The ancient pattern of apostolic preaching seems directly from the Bible but distinct from the modern evangelical method. The Lord Himself set this up with His summation of the law and prophets which is the where the Didache begins after the “ 2 ways” situation is expressed. The Lord’s preaching of keeping the commandments rests on these ( and is summarized by St. Paul in Romans 13:8-10). This I think is the basic explay that was originally preached and is still so but is buried in centuries of secondary ( though necessary)!traditions that have made the ancient worship so difficult to be explained by our preachers and lost in ignorance to the laity ( although lived out in the piety of many.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 17, 2018, 06:10:35 PM
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 17, 2018, 07:15:12 PM
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
My problem is with make the faith your own. I am not getting what he meant with tis.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 17, 2018, 10:49:18 PM
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
My problem is with make the faith your own. I am not getting what he meant with tis.
https://collegiateministries.intervarsity.org/blog/owning-your-faith
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 17, 2018, 11:35:18 PM
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
My problem is with make the faith your own. I am not getting what he meant with tis.
https://collegiateministries.intervarsity.org/blog/owning-your-faith

That brings back quite a few memories from growing up...
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 18, 2018, 02:34:52 PM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 20, 2018, 12:07:38 AM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.

See to me "owning the faith" means engaging in it of your own will. It means I am praying, and attending Liturgy, and receiving the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Holy Eucharist, and reading my Bible, and serving others, and generally worshipping and glorifying God with my life and my being all because I want to, not because my parents want me to/are making me. It means that I make the  conscious and willing decision to strive to pour out my life and my being at the feet of Christ and strive to trust in Him for all things.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 20, 2018, 01:47:40 AM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.

See to me "owning the faith" means engaging in it of your own will. It means I am praying, and attending Liturgy, and receiving the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Holy Eucharist, and reading my Bible, and serving others, and generally worshipping and glorifying God with my life and my being all because I want to, not because my parents want me to/are making me. It means that I make the  conscious and willing decision to strive to pour out my life and my being at the feet of Christ and strive to trust in Him for all things.

As well it should, but I don't think that's quite what NickMyra is referring to. I think what he's talking about is more the distorted attitude that feels the need to change the faith in order to make it more "me" or "my felt needs" or "the felt needs of the seeker." The impulse that leads to assuming that no one in this present darkness will follow Christ without a rock band in the worship service and a Starbucks in the narthex and five satellite campuses with trendy sermons that reference Finding Dory.*




*Completely seamless segue into being able to post another John B. Crist sketch. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kYjswEhVDE) Am I am a c00l guy who winz an internet yet?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 20, 2018, 02:12:48 AM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
See to me "owning the faith" means engaging in it of your own will. It means I am praying, and attending Liturgy, and receiving the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Holy Eucharist, and reading my Bible, and serving others, and generally worshipping and glorifying God with my life and my being all because I want to, not because my parents want me to/are making me. It means that I make the  conscious and willing decision to strive to pour out my life and my being at the feet of Christ and strive to trust in Him for all things.
As well it should, but I don't think that's quite what NickMyra is referring to. I think what he's talking about is more the distorted attitude that feels the need to change the faith in order to make it more "me" or "my felt needs" or "the felt needs of the seeker." The impulse that leads to assuming that no one in this present darkness will follow Christ without a rock band in the worship service and a Starbucks in the narthex and five satellite campuses with trendy sermons that reference Finding Dory.**Completely seamless segue into being able to post another John B. Crist sketch. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kYjswEhVDE) Am I am a c00l guy who winz an internet yet?
You remind me of this (https://youtu.be/D7_dZTrjw9I) video.  😂
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 20, 2018, 03:04:30 AM
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNpscDSqpU) so Jesus can spin you right round. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pgrln0upLk)

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 20, 2018, 03:19:08 AM
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNpscDSqpU) so Jesus can spin you right round. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pgrln0upLk)

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.

I.... I don't know what to say except

Epchoic nai nan
Ya Raabu Irham
Señor ten piedad
Kyrie Eleison
Lord have mercy
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 20, 2018, 03:31:48 AM
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNpscDSqpU) so Jesus can spin you right round. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pgrln0upLk)

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.

I.... I don't know what to say except

Epchoic nai nan
Ya Raabu Irham
Señor ten piedad
Kyrie Eleison
Lord have mercy

I guess that's about all that can be said. Things like that are a cautionary tale for every Christian congregation, I think. I would really hate to see it replicated.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 20, 2018, 12:54:43 PM
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNpscDSqpU) so Jesus can spin you right round. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pgrln0upLk)

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.

I.... I don't know what to say except

Epchoic nai nan
Ya Raabu Irham
Señor ten piedad
Kyrie Eleison
Lord have mercy

I guess that's about all that can be said. Things like that are a cautionary tale for every Christian congregation, I think. I would really hate to see it replicated.

Sigh, I don't want the OO to become anything like this or anything that could lead to this. If there is as much modernized influence as seems from this thread, we need to do something. Fast. :(
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: juliogb on February 20, 2018, 03:32:30 PM
Quote
Sure can be, yes. Most often isn't.

99% of CCM (even when it isn't outright heretical from an Orthodox standpoint) is poorly written, poorly performed, homogenized, corporate as heck, and emotionally manipulative.

This is a joke, yes, but it has a lot of truth in it. Do you really want to open the Sturgeon's Law floodgates just for an off chance of getting a few Michael Card songs in the liturgy?


I remember a service I attended in some evangelical youth group in wich people were rebaptize after a very emotionally manipulative sermon with a emotional music (and of course the ethereal guitar chords and the dimmed lights), I found that very disturbing and wrong.

I don't know if that happens in those modern coptic liturgy abuses (probably not rebaptism I hope), but it is indeed concerning, emotional manipulation plays a heavy role in CCM worship, better not going that path.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 20, 2018, 04:27:28 PM
Quote
Sure can be, yes. Most often isn't.

99% of CCM (even when it isn't outright heretical from an Orthodox standpoint) is poorly written, poorly performed, homogenized, corporate as heck, and emotionally manipulative.

This is a joke, yes, but it has a lot of truth in it. Do you really want to open the Sturgeon's Law floodgates just for an off chance of getting a few Michael Card songs in the liturgy?


I remember a service I attended in some evangelical youth group in wich people were rebaptize after a very emotionally manipulative sermon with a emotional music (and of course the ethereal guitar chords and the dimmed lights), I found that very disturbing and wrong.

I don't know if that happens in those modern coptic liturgy abuses (probably not rebaptism I hope), but it is indeed concerning, emotional manipulation plays a heavy role in CCM worship, better not going that path.

Definitely not rebaptism. Sometimes some CCM at youth meetings though.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 20, 2018, 07:03:26 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 20, 2018, 07:55:34 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 20, 2018, 08:59:26 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion. The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 20, 2018, 09:28:44 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 20, 2018, 09:57:35 PM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
No, I think it means being anxious and self-centered. I think it mean thinking you're not putting on an act when you really are. I think it means making up a life story to make it look like the story someone else told about their life. I think it means putting thoughts above faith.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 21, 2018, 07:37:36 AM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

 

Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 21, 2018, 07:51:09 AM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
No, I think it means being anxious and self-centered. I think it mean thinking you're not putting on an act when you really are. I think it means making up a life story to make it look like the story someone else told about their life. I think it means putting thoughts above faith.

But this is so personal, you are trying to judge the inside of the people. I felt the same way as you about the article but now i don't like to judge anyone . For exemple i had read that 33 per cent of russian orthodox think that the russian orthodox church is just a part of their nationalism and they are not believer. so just attending the way of your ancestors and defending it doen't mean you are believer.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 21, 2018, 08:25:18 AM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 21, 2018, 10:01:45 AM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: NicholasMyra on February 21, 2018, 11:33:21 AM
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
No, I think it means being anxious and self-centered. I think it mean thinking you're not putting on an act when you really are. I think it means making up a life story to make it look like the story someone else told about their life. I think it means putting thoughts above faith.

But this is so personal, you are trying to judge the inside of the people. I felt the same way as you about the article but now i don't like to judge anyone
I don't think it's personal, and I think that living in the modern world we are all affected by it. I don't think we're talking about the inside of people. The Scripture says that the human heart it deep and desperately corrupt, so why look inside there for anything? When you look inside yourself you never find yourself. It is better to look at what happens in the space where things happen.

The sickness of introspection, intentionality, authenticity, personal narrative--we all have it now. But I object to making a religion out of it.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 21, 2018, 12:31:29 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.



That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?

Anything that reflected truth and beauty is transcendent. Music in general is transcendant it is a universal language.

Martin luther has said Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 21, 2018, 12:50:15 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.



That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?

Anything that reflected truth and beauty is transcendent. Music in general is transcendant it is a universal language.

Martin luther has said Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world.

We definitely need to be careful with protestant music anyway. The songs of a church reflect the theology of that church. Several protestant songs reflect a poor (and heretical) theology.

One example off the top of my head is the song "In Christ Alone". One of the lines says, "Till on the cross when Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied." This is penal substitution, which is heresy.

There are several others that proclaim heretical theology, and it is important to be wary of the words we are singing. Just because a song is fun and is meant to worship our Lord, if the song lacks truth then it is nothing. We are to worship God in spirit and truth.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 21, 2018, 09:18:45 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 21, 2018, 09:23:05 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.



That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?

Anything that reflected truth and beauty is transcendent. Music in general is transcendant it is a universal language.

I'm not sure that's true. Both Byzantine and Coptic chant for me have really been acquired tastes just because they're so different to the Western music that I was used to. I love them now, but it took me a few months to get acclimated.

Martin luther has said Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world.

That's true. But not all music is created equal. There's nothing transcendent about, sorry to keep harping on the same point, "Jesus Right Round."
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 21, 2018, 10:23:11 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 21, 2018, 10:32:37 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.

Oh, I know. I guess for my taste it depends on what the arrangement does to the chant exactly, but I agree in general as a capella as possible would be best.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 21, 2018, 10:52:54 PM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.

Oh, I know. I guess for my taste it depends on what the arrangement does to the chant exactly, but I agree in general as a capella as possible would be best.

Can I just vent about how upset this (https://youtu.be/pKk79w-lTBA) makes me. Like Je Nai Nan is one of my favorite Liturgical Hymns. Can we please keep Liturgical hymns... Liturgical? Also I'm sorry but the fact that one of the guys performing this is Muslim kinda makes my frustration worse.

For reference, it's supposed to sound like this (https://youtu.be/2j6qBYABUVM). (That is only one person. Usually it's sung by the priest alone then the whole congregation)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: minasoliman on February 22, 2018, 12:04:54 AM
I think some EOs have similar problems, where a few parishes turn choir into a performance and hire non-Orthodox choir leaders.  At least this is what I hear from podcasts, but I have not personally experienced this.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 22, 2018, 01:18:29 AM
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs+22%3A28&version=NKJV)).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.

Oh, I know. I guess for my taste it depends on what the arrangement does to the chant exactly, but I agree in general as a capella as possible would be best.

Can I just vent about how upset this (https://youtu.be/pKk79w-lTBA) makes me. Like Je Nai Nan is one of my favorite Liturgical Hymns. Can we please keep Liturgical hymns... Liturgical? Also I'm sorry but the fact that one of the guys performing this is Muslim kinda makes my frustration worse.

Feels kind of "try-hard" to me. Can't say I'm a fan. I've heard one electronic keyboard version of a Malankara hymn that I thought was ok, but I guess I tend to take a "go big or go home" attitude to it. If you're going to go all out like Rachmaninoff and make it pure theater, ok, but that link just seems like a limp half measure.

For reference, it's supposed to sound like this (https://youtu.be/2j6qBYABUVM). (That is only one person. Usually it's sung by the priest alone then the whole congregation)

A lot better.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 22, 2018, 06:34:03 AM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 22, 2018, 06:59:14 AM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 22, 2018, 07:06:08 AM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 22, 2018, 07:30:16 AM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: WPM on February 22, 2018, 07:55:37 AM
Hey Folks,

As you might've noticed, there have been a lot of threads on this and other Orthodox forums lately (not to mention websites like this http://dissidentcopts.blogspot.com/2009/06/things-to-straighten-protestant-thought.html) complaining about Evangelical and Charismatic thought and practice creeping into Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Well, a small group of us - Oriental Orthodox priests, deacons, and laity - believe that the time has come to stop complaining and do something.  Our desire is to work with - and in obedience to - our respective bishops and:

• develop a curriculum to be included in servants programs and seminaries so the future generation of servants and priests will be of a sound Orthodox Mind.
• facilitate the production of literature and hymns that are in line with the Orthodox teaching.
• conduct workshops in local churches and in different regions to train servants to adopt the Orthodox Mind and do away with protestant ways.
• create a website and Facebook page where clergy and servants interested in preserving Orthodoxy in their respective parishes can access patristic materials, essays, articles, videos, audio lectures, and other resources.

This fellowship is under the patronage of the great, pan-Oriental Orthodox Father St. Jacob Baradaeus (St. Jacob Baradaeus story: http://www.neamericandiocese.org/feasts-memorials.54/st-jacob-baradaeus.aspx).

The idea behind the fellowship is basically what I articulated in another thread on this issue.

We have to face the fact that the average Orthodox Christian isn't the amateur theologian who argues ad infinitum on these boards.  Rather, he or she is generally a pious person, not particularly theologically sophisticated, who has the same spiritual needs as every person.  When we don't meet those needs by teaching them about true Orthodox mysticism and theosis and how this cannot be achieved apart from living liturgically and participating in the Holy Mysteries - basically, opening to them the treasure trove of Orthodox spirituality - of course they turn to shallow means of satisfying the soul.  This is why we end up with folks who fool themselves into thinking that they can simultaneously be Orthodox and pseudo-tongue talkin' holy rollers, or worshippers of Haile Selassie, or crystal-carrying New Age mystics, or "Crazy 4 Christ" mega-church imitators, or whatever else.  We need to start working with our hierarchs to address this.

As the brilliant Orthodox theologian Harry Boosalis says in his wonderful book Taught by God:

“We are called not simply to preserve Patristic tradition. We are called to pursue it and to participate in it ourselves. From out of the well-spring of Holy Tradition and through our participation in the liturgical life of the Church; by attempting to acquire some share in the Fathers' spirit of humility and life of prayer; by pursuing their path toward purification, illumination and theosis, students of Orthodox Theology are called, and must be committed to, acquiring this same 'mind of the Fathers' which is nothing less than the mind of Christ Himself.

This not only keeps outside influences from infiltrating our inheritance; it also inspires and emboldens us as we confront, address, and reach out to the non-Orthodox around us. Only then can we speak with the same voice as our Fathers -- from out of the depths of their same experience, utilizing their same categories of thought, and rightly applying their same method and manner of approach.”


Amen.

I want to be very clear that this fellowship is not about advocating a rediscovery of Orthodoxy alongside  warped, Protestantized theology and practice, but to the absolute exclusion of it.

If any Oriental Orthodox Christian on these boards is interested in taking a stand along these lines against heterodox faith and practice creeping into our Communion, please pm me with your email.

In Christ,

A.N.


You make it Oriental and Coptic Orthodox like you want brown skin color.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 22, 2018, 08:20:11 AM
Why not? Brown is beautiful ;)
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 22, 2018, 12:19:15 PM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.

Can we say that the quran offer a standard for many years for so much people. So what?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 22, 2018, 01:18:55 PM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.

Can we say that the quran offer a standard for many years for so much people. So what?

No one mentioned the qur'an. What does the qur'an have to do with anything?
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 22, 2018, 02:33:06 PM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.

Can we say that the quran offer a standard for many years for so much people. So what?

No one mentioned the qur'an. What does the qur'an have to do with anything?

I am just saying having standard and being old doesn't mean anything. In general time make stuff to look more sacred
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 22, 2018, 08:23:47 PM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.

Can we say that the quran offer a standard for many years for so much people. So what?

A false standard, yes. Are you saying that you consider Orthodoxy to be as false as Islam?

My point is that Christian worship needs standards and that modern Low Church Evangelicals have little to none of those.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 23, 2018, 07:40:19 AM
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.

Can we say that the quran offer a standard for many years for so much people. So what?

A false standard, yes. Are you saying that you consider Orthodoxy to be as false as Islam?

My point is that Christian worship needs standards and that modern Low Church Evangelicals have little to none of those.

Sure no. they are a little better ;D I am kidding.
My point is worshipping a something we should do it every day in our work, and people can pray the way they like. Imagine if christianity start in a shamanism culture i think the standard will change
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 23, 2018, 08:13:55 AM
Worshiping is something we should do everyday, yes. Our whole lives should be an act of worship. But there is also something special about the coming together of the Body of Christ in worship.

It's something that needs to be carefully tended and guarded because there's a million ways that it can and has gone astray over the years.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: youssef on February 23, 2018, 06:56:22 PM
Worshiping is something we should do everyday, yes. Our whole lives should be an act of worship. But there is also something special about the coming together of the Body of Christ in worship.

It's something that needs to be carefully tended and guarded because there's a million ways that it can and has gone astray over the years.

In mass we should become together taking out all my personal identity and praise God in respectful way.
In general now I don't go to Mass for many reason and contradiction in my mind, but sometimes I go with friends to their liturgy. The first time I had go with my Protestant friend a responsible of the church has say to me, we are all here the son of God we are not Latin, Greek , Russian or Syriac. I appreciate when he say that.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: Volnutt on February 23, 2018, 07:45:43 PM
Worshiping is something we should do everyday, yes. Our whole lives should be an act of worship. But there is also something special about the coming together of the Body of Christ in worship.

It's something that needs to be carefully tended and guarded because there's a million ways that it can and has gone astray over the years.

In mass we should become together taking out all my personal identity and praise God in respectful way.

Right. And adding CCM to the corporate worship is the opposite of that. Listen to it on your own time if you must.

And I agree, there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ.
Title: Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
Post by: LoveJoyPeace on February 23, 2018, 11:50:42 PM
Worshiping is something we should do everyday, yes. Our whole lives should be an act of worship. But there is also something special about the coming together of the Body of Christ in worship.

It's something that needs to be carefully tended and guarded because there's a million ways that it can and has gone astray over the years.

In mass we should become together taking out all my personal identity and praise God in respectful way.
In general now I don't go to Mass for many reason and contradiction in my mind, but sometimes I go with friends to their liturgy. The first time I had go with my Protestant friend a responsible of the church has say to me, we are all here the son of God we are not Latin, Greek , Russian or Syriac. I appreciate when he say that.

I've always been Orthodox. When I came to college in the middle of my second semester of sophomore year I started getting involved with this Protestant group on campus. I really loved it and actually bought into the culture hype for SEVERAL months. A few weeks in I even made the grave mistake of receiving communion at one of their parishes on the Western Good Friday (which was obviously differnt from Orthodox that year). I've repented and confessed of that now, thank God. It was partially an ignorance thing as to the state of their bread and partially a rebellious/prideful thing since I knew I wasn't supposed to.

Interestingly, something happened (or rather has been happening), and I've been being pushed into an almost hyper-orthodox culture now. I still sometimes go to this fellowship mostly for social reasons, but I usually don't go there for spiritual nourishment anymore as I did in the beginning. (This was in addition to my Orthodox Fellowship even then. Not instead of).

The reverence for God that I've seen in Orthodox (And even Catholic) Churches is beautiful, and necessary, and I don't particularly see such reverence among protestant communities. A lot of protestant "worship nights" or "worship services" strongly resemble a rock concert. I don't think our worship should be resembling worldly things.

Not to mention, the lack of a Eucharist and other major flaws in theology. Many of which present themselves in the songs.