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Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: TheTrisagion on May 22, 2013, 09:27:47 PM

Title: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 22, 2013, 09:27:47 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 22, 2013, 09:29:59 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Did he say they'd be enjoying the experience?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Nephi on May 22, 2013, 09:47:54 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

I don't really know how to take this. I can't help but feel like he's glossing over some fundamental beliefs about baptism and the atonement...
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: truthseeker32 on May 22, 2013, 09:52:44 PM
I think that people are reading too much into Pope Francis's statement. Nowhere does he say Atheists are definitely going to heaven, but merely that Christ died for them so they might be. Everyone is redeemed by Christ's death, but that doesn't mean all will choose to accept God's love in the end.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 22, 2013, 10:01:57 PM
I don't see the cause for alarm. He's simply encouraging people to do good, no matter what they believe. As an atheist, you might have a sincere longing to believe, but you simply cannot believe. Even so, you should pursue goodness.

H.H. Pope Francis is not saying that baptism is null and void, or that it's okay not to pursue God. He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good. Perhaps in adopting this view, an atheist will feel encouraged to take action, and that action will lead him closer to God.

There are most likely atheists in this world who are much closer to God than I am. We certainly cannot peer into the inner conscience of every single person in the world. God can (and, I believe, does) save those outside of the visible Church based on their own circumstances and the content of their hearts.

Once we have found The Truth, we cannot reject it without rejecting our own salvation! But, for those who have not yet found it, or struggle with it, they should not be discouraged, H.H. Pope Francis is saying. He's not supporting atheism, he's not making membership in the Church optional, he's just giving hope to all who struggle for good in this life.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 22, 2013, 10:04:53 PM
The grace of Christ is offered to all men and women and it does touch all people each in his or hers own unique way so that even an atheist has an opportunity to accept God's stirrings and do something good. This does not, however, mean that Pope Francis said that these atheists are saved only that the Redemption touches the entire human race insofar as Christ died for each of us.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 22, 2013, 10:06:23 PM
I don't see the cause for alarm. He's simply encouraging people to do good, no matter what they believe. As an atheist, you might have a sincere longing to believe, but you simply cannot believe. Even so, you should pursue goodness.

H.H. Pope Francis is not saying that baptism is null and void, or that it's okay not to pursue God. He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good. Perhaps in adopting this view, an atheist will feel encouraged to take action, and that action will lead him closer to God.

There are most likely atheists in this world who are much closer to God than I am. We certainly cannot peer into the inner conscience of every single person in the world. God can (and, I believe, does) save those outside of the visible Church based on their own circumstances and the content of their hearts.

Once we have found The Truth, we cannot reject it without rejecting our own salvation! But, for those who have not yet found it, or struggle with it, they should not be discouraged, H.H. Pope Francis is saying. He's not supporting atheism, he's not making membership in the Church optional, he's just giving hope to all who struggle for good in this life.
Well put.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 22, 2013, 10:53:43 PM
Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 22, 2013, 11:00:49 PM
Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Nephi on May 22, 2013, 11:03:06 PM
Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

His words seemed a bit stronger than that to me.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 22, 2013, 11:12:38 PM
Quote
"We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

This is what confuses me.  He seems to be giving assurance to those who are atheists.  It would be one thing to say we MAY meet one another there by the grace of God.  It is quite another to say we WILL meet one another there.
he is saying that the atheist should do his best 'to do good' and that is a common ground to meet each other on, which, of course, presupposes grace. Thus, by commiting himself to do good he surely has the opportunity to encounter God and from there perhaps God will lead him further, but Pope Francis is encouraging the atheist to at least make this first step.

His words seemed a bit stronger than that to me.
What did you take his words to mean?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 23, 2013, 02:30:09 AM
He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good.

No, he said "atheists." Not "theists with uncertainties." Atheists. People who actively disbelieve in God.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JamesR on May 23, 2013, 02:54:08 AM
I think that atheists know God better than all of us. That's why so many of them absolutely hate him even though they "disbelieve" in Him. Ever notice how some of the people who we feel like we hate and despise the most are those closest to us who we love? Such as our family and friends? I imagine it is somewhat like that with the atheist and God. They are so disturbed by the fact that a loving God could allow there to be so much evil in the world or could be so absent from their lives that they reject Him altogether because the reality is unfathomable. I believe it was Fr. Seraphim Rose who said that true existential atheism that hates God is merely one of man's attempts to grapple with a God they have so much trouble understanding. It's a lot better than the cafeteria Christians who don't think about their beliefs at all or who totally detach themselves from all of the evil and dilemmas in the world in order to protect their faith bubble.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 23, 2013, 05:14:57 AM
He's saying that we do not necessarily need to be absolutely certain in our beliefs to begin doing good.

No, he said "atheists." Not "theists with uncertainties." Atheists. People who actively disbelieve in God.

Someone who identifies as an "atheist" is not necessarily one who actively rejects God, although that's the classical definition. I think Pope Francis was using the term to describe a range of secular-minded people, from skeptics to agnostics to "hard" atheists. Richard Dawkins, who is in many ways a leader of the new atheist movement, argued in The God Delusion that few people fall into the latter category (believe that God does not exist); even he admits to a sort of "soft" atheism in which he does not believe in God based on the evidence he has but would be willing to change his mind in the future. I think most people who identify as "atheist" fall into that category. Few would be so bold as to say "there is no God," period.

At any rate, he wasn't talking in academic context, where his words needed to be precise. Although I'm sure he'd encourage people with strong disbelief to also pursue good.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: IoanC on May 23, 2013, 06:17:05 AM
I think it helps and gives courage to those who have been influenced by the belief in an unloving God. Many atheists reject God based on a false understanding of Him. This kind of people don't need further indoctrination, but a little bit of love to help them see the light.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 23, 2013, 07:21:55 AM
Good for him. Isn't Atheism a product of the RCC anyway? Maybe the could be a new order in the church, then schism off with schlock icons.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Fabio Leite on May 23, 2013, 07:38:16 AM
I believe he is just stating in an informal way the very orthodox belief that the law of God is inscribed in everybody's heart.

And that even unbelievers may follow it - although with more difficulty to understand the full scope of what they are doing.

Or in other words, that we know where the Church is and where the Church is not, and we know who is in the Church and who is not *but* we don't know who will be thrown away and who will be called in after Judgment Day.

Salvation is in the Church only, but not everybody who is in will remain in, not everybody who is out will remain out. Some of those who are currently out and will be in may very well be atheists who, in contradiction with their own belief, still loved their neighbors as themselves and God above everything else, even if they call God by His other names: truth, life and meaning of life.

That to discern these things without a proper Orthodox Christian cosmological vision makes everything far more difficult is the reason why announcing the Gospel to them is still extremely important. So many atheists start well with some concern for those around them and ended supporting genocidical regimes, or just becoming sour cynical people who don't believe - and therefore can't love - even their neighbors.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: primuspilus on May 23, 2013, 08:08:10 AM
Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 23, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
I think that atheists know God better than all of us. That's why so many of them absolutely hate him even though they "disbelieve" in Him. Ever notice how some of the people who we feel like we hate and despise the most are those closest to us who we love? Such as our family and friends? I imagine it is somewhat like that with the atheist and God. They are so disturbed by the fact that a loving God could allow there to be so much evil in the world or could be so absent from their lives that they reject Him altogether because the reality is unfathomable. I believe it was Fr. Seraphim Rose who said that true existential atheism that hates God is merely one of man's attempts to grapple with a God they have so much trouble understanding. It's a lot better than the cafeteria Christians who don't think about their beliefs at all or who totally detach themselves from all of the evil and dilemmas in the world in order to protect their faith bubble.

Yeah it seems to me that fundie atheists are more obsessed with God then we are. And some are even Bible worshippers too.

But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 23, 2013, 08:17:22 AM
Quote
Yeah it seems to me that fundie atheists are more obsessed with God then we are. And some are even Bible worshippers too.

 :D  This is funny because it is so true.  A friend of mine is an atheist blogger and he is unbelieveable prolific in his writings on God and religion.  I think he thinks about God more than just about any Christian I know.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 23, 2013, 08:20:56 AM
Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: podkarpatska on May 23, 2013, 09:08:58 AM
Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

Is it me or is the author of this piece an ignoramus? What do you expect from Huff Post anyway, they have their agenda after all.

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Fabio Leite on May 23, 2013, 09:32:13 AM
Christ redeemed the entire Creation from death. Salvation is salvation from hell.

Christ's work had the final objective of uniting human nature with divine nature.

The trouble is that before that happened, human nature had fallen, causing death. Well, something that will eventually be destroyed will not be united to something that is eternal. So He had to heal this destroying death.

Once death is destroyed by His own death and resurrection, we are all, literally, imortals in the sense that although we die for this "crude matter", we as persons, somehow survive that partial destruction and will eventually be resurrected.

Now, after resurrection, we will be in the very presence of God, in the fullness of His Glory. We won't be able to pretend to be or pretend to believe we are not what we with deep love and obstinance had chosen to be. His Love will be all around us. Those whose life was a lie, a living hell will no longer be able to hide that. That is hell, and accepting truth in our life as soon as possible is salvation from that.

So we have salvation from hell that is participation in the whole truth. The whole truth includes God, God's real character and nature, and that's what makes it more difficult the more one is away from the Orthodox Church (the visible, manifest, undivided Body of Christ).

But one may have contact with truth in lesser manifestations as true morality, true knowledge, true beauty, true justice and true love of what is true.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: primuspilus on May 23, 2013, 09:40:06 AM
Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

Is it me or is the author of this piece an ignoramus? What do you expect from Huff Post anyway, they have their agenda after all.

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
I just think its someone who doesn't understand the rudiments of RC or Orthodox Soteriology....much like many of the RC and Orthodox adherents, myself probably included :)

PP
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Fabio Leite on May 23, 2013, 09:45:15 AM
So, summing up, I believe the Orthodox faith is that we have universal salvation from death and conditional salvation from hell.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Dpaula on May 23, 2013, 10:06:28 AM
My priest just sent me the link below, with a very nice explanation.

orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

I especially liked this paragraph.
"The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 23, 2013, 10:36:52 AM
My priest just sent me the link below, with a very nice explanation.

orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/

I especially liked this paragraph.
"The capability of doing good is an effect of redemption, not its cause, and salvation is also another possibility because of that redemption. Someone may be redeemed and not be saved. Someone may be redeemed and not do good. Someone may also be redeemed, do good and yet not be saved."

Thanks Dpaula, that is a very good article on it.  His comments below the article also give a good explanation of what the Pope likely meant by the sentence I was concerned about.  The Pope was not referencing meeting in heaven, he was talking about meeting one another doing good.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Agabus on May 23, 2013, 10:54:44 AM
Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP
This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
One of the great challenges of the day is to tell people what Christianity actually teaches rather than to allow them to believe what they think it teaches. Such statements as the Pope made here aren’t radical, but they don’t fit the narrative about Catholicism that many have made in their minds.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: truthseeker32 on May 23, 2013, 12:06:55 PM
Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP
Like who? I thought it was customary for Orthodox Christians to make no judgments about such things.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: mabsoota on May 23, 2013, 12:19:50 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 23, 2013, 12:20:28 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

I didn't read the article, but the Orthodox Church would not say atheists will not experience joy in age to come.

In fact, a certain Orthodox someone, who everyone hates me to mention so often, said some atheists will be absolutely glorified for rejecting God.

I cannot imagine getting the time to source that anytime soon.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 23, 2013, 12:21:58 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)

Why not? For the most part it is a barely legal news aggregator from what I understand. A lot of "their content" is just aggregated material with enough "original" work to not be tied up in lawsuits all the time.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: WPM on May 23, 2013, 01:46:27 PM
That does sound Universalist and Hippy religionist.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Elisha on May 23, 2013, 02:34:11 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

No, he didn't.

See this link for a good explanation.

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/ (http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/05/23/did-pope-francis-say-everyone-will-be-saved-by-doing-good/)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 23, 2013, 03:04:13 PM
Christ redeemed the entire creation, but there are people that did not attain salvation, so.....

PP

Is it me or is the author of this piece an ignoramus? What do you expect from Huff Post anyway, they have their agenda after all.

This is news?

THE Church has proclaimed this since the beginning. Redemption and salvation ain't the same.
Exactly. Huff post of course provides its liberal coloring.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on May 23, 2013, 06:16:55 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this.  

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Someone needs to remind Pope Francis that works alone will not get you into Heaven.  There are too many verses in Scripture to mention that implies that works are the manifestation of Faith.  St. James stated that Faith alone without works is dead.  I say works alone with out faith is definity dead.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 23, 2013, 06:40:38 PM
Come on guys, stop being so gullible. There's a modernist pope and he's more or less a Universalist with extremely weak ecclesiology. I get it, if you ignore half of what he said and make some logical leaps you can arrive at an interpretation of his remarks that is almost Orthodox. But why would you?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Red A. on May 23, 2013, 08:56:26 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
Some people are taking the huffington posts interpretation on religious issues seriously?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 23, 2013, 08:58:12 PM
I accept Huffington Post interpretation on religion as authoritative right behind the Church Fathers and right ahead of Evangelical Christians.  ;)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Red A. on May 23, 2013, 09:03:47 PM
I accept Huffington Post interpretation on religion as authoritative right behind the Church Fathers and right ahead of Evangelical Christians.  ;)
That's a rather wide canyon.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 23, 2013, 09:19:38 PM
I accept Huffington Post interpretation on religion as authoritative right behind the Church Fathers and right ahead of Evangelical Christians.  ;)
That's a rather wide canyon.

LOL, very true.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 23, 2013, 10:44:25 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: jwinch2 on May 23, 2013, 11:07:09 PM
While I do think it wasn't the most prudent choice of words on the part of the Holy Father, the title of this thread and the interpretation by HuffPo and other such rags is incorrect.  Pope Francis has a tendency to speak off the cuff in his homilies.  I like it because his homilies are usually pretty good and I am scared to death of it at the same time because it is easy for something to come out the wrong way when you preach in that manner.  I think he is still learning to be Pope and coming to grips with the idea that everything he says will be dissected all over the world.  Pope Benedict had some things happen early in his pontificate which were taken out of context as well during unscripted comments.   He didn't go off the script much at all for the remainder of his pontificate.  At some point, Pope Francis will likely do the same.   

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/pope-francis-on-the-possibility-of-salvation-for-atheists/

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 23, 2013, 11:08:27 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 23, 2013, 11:23:19 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.

The video can be found here, for anyone who's interested: http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/04/02/popes-embrace-viral/17633/
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: jwinch2 on May 23, 2013, 11:25:09 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.

To be fair, being humble does not necessarily mean refusal to wear the finery which comes along with one's station in life.  It might be more appropriate to think about it as denial of self will.  In the Catholic Tradition, both St. Elizabeth of Hungary and St. Thomas More wished to dress in a more simple fashion but were unable to do so because of the positions that they held, which demanded a certain level of dress.  In order to do this and work on their humility, they wore the nice clothes along with a hair shirt underneath of them, which they told no one about.  What would be more humble on the part of Pope Francis, to do as he is doing, or to wear some of the things which come with the office (which is contrary to his own will by the way), and perhaps do something to make them uncomfortable, wear a hair shirt, put a rock in his shoe, etc.?  

As for any potential reforms, me too.  
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 23, 2013, 11:29:15 PM
To be fair, being humble does not necessarily mean refusal to wear the finery which comes along with one's station in life.
Well of course I don't disagree.

And look at all the wealth that is poured into our churches for the iconography, church buildings, vestments, etc. Hardly "humble" either.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: jwinch2 on May 23, 2013, 11:37:03 PM
To be fair, being humble does not necessarily mean refusal to wear the finery which comes along with one's station in life.
Well of course I don't disagree.

And look at all the wealth that is poured into our churches for the iconography, church buildings, vestments, etc. Hardly "humble" either.

To me, it is in fact a form of humility.  We are giving the best we have to God, inadequate though it may be.  We recognize our lowliness compared to Him and wish to glorify Him as best as we are able.  We have lost much of that concept in the West since Vatican II and it is something which I hope we fix sooner rather than later.  In the Catholic Tradition, when Mother Teresa of Calcutta was asked about the chalice of precious metal, etc. in their chapel, she replied that even the poorest of the poor deserved to give the best we had to God.  That has always stuck with me for some reason.

Also, I apologize if I came across as snarky in my post above.  I have been going back and forth with the "humbler than thou" Catholics since the election of the Pope, and it is wearing on me.   
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 23, 2013, 11:40:35 PM
I have been going back and forth with the "humbler than thou" Catholics since the election of the Pope, and it is wearing on me.   

Where on earth do you do this?

Wherever that is, move.

How is the more of a problem than the crypto-evo obsession around here about the gays and the outright hatred of Muslims?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 24, 2013, 12:06:15 AM
Its gotta be tough to be truly humble as Pope because everything you do gets reported and analyzed with tons of people commenting on how humble you are.  If people were constantly telling me how humble I was, I'm pretty sure that would go to my head quickly.  I'm sure that many of the actions that Pope Francis does he does not mean for the public to see, but then you've have the media showing him doing it and commenting on it exhaustively.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 24, 2013, 12:45:02 AM
Its gotta be tough to be truly humble as Pope because everything you do gets reported and analyzed with tons of people commenting on how humble you are.  If people were constantly telling me how humble I was, I'm pretty sure that would go to my head quickly.  I'm sure that many of the actions that Pope Francis does he does not mean for the public to see, but then you've have the media showing him doing it and commenting on it exhaustively.

Indeed. Lord have mercy on Pope Francis!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: adampjr on May 24, 2013, 01:02:51 AM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

He emphatically did not say atheists are going to heaven. Not even close.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: jwinch2 on May 24, 2013, 10:25:26 AM
For what its worth, I think Pope Francis' comment "Someone can object, 'But I don't believe, Father, I'm an atheist.' But do good and we'll meet there...".  should simply be taken to mean: let's meet in the doing of good works, and we can come to know each other better, and that can serve as a starting point for other dialogue

The whole thing is much ado about nothing in my view. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on May 24, 2013, 01:14:18 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.

The video can be found here, for anyone who's interested: http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/04/02/popes-embrace-viral/17633/

Gee, it he were only Orthodox, but then again he wouldn't be pope.....
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Fabio Leite on May 24, 2013, 01:42:40 PM
My hopes for Pope Francis is that he does for Latin America what Pope John Paul II did for Eastern Europe, getting rid of the hegemonic marxist third-world discourse in religion and of liberation theology specifically.

Also, I'd like to see less Carnival and party masses and, if not traditional ones, at least more truly liturgical forms of Novus Ordo Missae. Recently, a priest was excomunicated here in Brazil for defending open "marriage", homossexual "marriage" and other aberrations. I think it's a great sign. All those are true steps toward union.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/brazilian-priest-excommunicated-for-heresy-for-denying-catholic-teaching-on/

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 24, 2013, 06:36:24 PM
Also, I'd like to see less Carnival and party masses and, if not traditional ones, at least more truly liturgical forms of Novus Ordo Missae.

I guess you don't know much about Pope Francis, then.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: LBK on May 24, 2013, 06:46:20 PM
My hopes for Pope Francis is that he does for Latin America what Pope John Paul II did for Eastern Europe, getting rid of the hegemonic marxist third-world discourse in religion and of liberation theology specifically.


You may be disappointed, Fabio. Only yesterday I came across a report that the examination for sainthood of an RC cleric (his name escapes me) who proclaimed liberation theology which had been suspended during the time of Pope Benedict has now resumed.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 24, 2013, 06:56:58 PM
My hopes for Pope Francis is that he does for Latin America what Pope John Paul II did for Eastern Europe, getting rid of the hegemonic marxist third-world discourse in religion and of liberation theology specifically.


You may be disappointed, Fabio. Only yesterday I came across a report that the examination for sainthood of an RC cleric (his name escapes me) who proclaimed liberation theology which had been suspended during the time of Pope Benedict has now resumed.
One more reason to like this pope. Probably trying to make up for less than ideal behaviour during Videla's dictatorship.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 24, 2013, 08:47:20 PM
For what its worth, I think Pope Francis' comment "Someone can object, 'But I don't believe, Father, I'm an atheist.' But do good and we'll meet there...".  should simply be taken to mean: let's meet in the doing of good works, and we can come to know each other better, and that can serve as a starting point for other dialogue.

This was my immediate interpretation as well.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: jwinch2 on May 24, 2013, 10:58:42 PM
For what its worth, I think Pope Francis' comment "Someone can object, 'But I don't believe, Father, I'm an atheist.' But do good and we'll meet there...".  should simply be taken to mean: let's meet in the doing of good works, and we can come to know each other better, and that can serve as a starting point for other dialogue.

This was my immediate interpretation as well.

Let us hope that we are correct in our understanding then.

God bless,
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 24, 2013, 11:09:18 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 24, 2013, 11:35:55 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 24, 2013, 11:39:26 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

I want a cigar.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on May 25, 2013, 12:44:19 AM
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: SolEX01 on May 25, 2013, 01:02:11 AM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Romaios on May 25, 2013, 03:11:59 AM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Church tax is what you pay in order to mock them with a clean conscience and still get a proper Orthodox funeral.

There's also weddings and baptisms - for those who buy into the capitalist "family" myth.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 04:30:48 AM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Romaios on May 25, 2013, 07:07:54 AM
Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.

Is it Marxist or Christian dogmas that "don't matter"? Cuz "pie-in-the-sky" seems to be the Marxist dogma about Christian heaven.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Dpaula on May 25, 2013, 09:23:12 AM
I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on May 25, 2013, 09:53:12 AM
I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


Sometimes the pope should think before he opens his mouth....this removes a lot of controversy.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: LBK on May 25, 2013, 10:00:41 AM
I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


Sometimes the pope should think before he opens his mouth....this removes a lot of controversy.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with what Dpaula posted.  ??? ::)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Santagranddad on May 25, 2013, 10:25:43 AM
I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


A question I have been pondering too. At first coming to this website I had harboured a suspicion that for some their faith might be likened to the Tea Party at Prayer. How foolish of me, more a case of the Humanist Society scoffing at what they in their conceit hold to be so. Or those whose agenda whether open or covert is to promote Marxist ideology. In any case while we reportedly have free speech in the Western World, this is not the place for such. There are other forums where I am sure they would be welcome.

Makes me recall a Jesuit scholar rebuking a student, don't confuse your cap size with your IQ.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: GabrieltheCelt on May 25, 2013, 10:32:01 AM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

We're Orthodox, he's Heterodox.  What he says about much should matter little.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 10:35:58 AM
I'm not quite sure why are you guys allowed to mock Orthodoxy and Orthodox people in this manner on an Orthodox forum?!?!?!?!?


What are you talking about?

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 10:41:59 AM
Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.

Is it Marxist or Christian dogmas that "don't matter"? Cuz "pie-in-the-sky" seems to be the Marxist dogma about Christian heaven.


such things don't matter was referring to caring about words.

I am not sure what Christian heaven is. Most Christians would do well start to rid themselves of the word for a while. Romaios, you might be able to use such language and not carry the baggage it often does.

There is an age that has come is here and is coming. You know this. People start going on about heave and you get weird notions of disembodied "spiritual worlds" and radical discontinuity with creation as  it was and is.

You end up with what seems to me to be a Christianized Islamic notion of Paradise (to the degree I understand Islam).
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Dpaula on May 25, 2013, 10:43:57 AM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

And then what Romaios said about baptisms and marriages and funerals.
I mean how can you guys call yourself Orthodox if you don't believe and trust in what Orthodoxy teaches.
You guys are pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-atheists going to the pie in the sky...I just don't get it.
All you do is criticize Orthodox people for their beliefs, mock everyone who doesn't see it the way you guys see it and make fun of the Orthodox Church itself.
I just don't see anything "orthodox" in you.
But you claim your faith  is "Orthodox"....please!


Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 11:01:02 AM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

And then what Romaios said about baptisms and marriages and funerals.

You certainly didn't understand Romaios. Whose American usage is clearer than mine although it is his 6th language or something.

And certainly didn't understand me.

You would do well to read more of what people write before judging them.

Me, I could see having a problem with, but Romaios, is like walking polyglot encyclopedia of lotsa stuff, one of which is Orthodox.

There are more than a few of those around here. Thankfully, they won't care much what people say about them, cause in addition to knowing stuff they are good Christians as well.

And I don't Romaios fall into some atheist supporting, gay supporting, [fill in a group you don't like] supporting, guy.

He seems rather caring and very committed to the Church's teachings.

Sorry, but I like the guy a lot and don't want him tossed in with my lot. He deserves better.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 11:02:03 AM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

While you were jerking your knee, this happened:

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.

Is it Marxist or Christian dogmas that "don't matter"? Cuz "pie-in-the-sky" seems to be the Marxist dogma about Christian heaven.


such things don't matter was referring to caring about words.

I am not sure what Christian heaven is. Most Christians would do well start to rid themselves of the word for a while. Romaios, you might be able to use such language and not carry the baggage it often does.

There is an age that has come is here and is coming. You know this. People start going on about heave and you get weird notions of disembodied "spiritual worlds" and radical discontinuity with creation as  it was and is.

You end up with what seems to me to be a Christianized Islamic notion of Paradise (to the degree I understand Islam).

Do you see my point at all?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Santagranddad on May 25, 2013, 11:24:02 AM
Their contributions are like soured milk, fit only to be discarded.

But their pathology is such that it is fruitless to to debate with them. Indeed I have now come across one Islamic scholar who could teach them how to have a scholarly debate without the pretensions, exaggerated sense of superiority and scepticism too often exhibited here. Whether or not you agree.

I don't know what Pope Francis meant, nor whether either his original words or the thinking behind them has been misinterpreted. That said, is it important given he is not an Orthodox bishop? And despite the very hard work of some thoughtful contributors here the sceptics seem to delight in trying to turn the thread into yet another 'knock about' session or metaphorically demonstrate how much higher they can pee up the wall than anyone else. Sad really.

As a child life in the playground experience taught me early which children you might play with or disagree with without risking harm and which ones never to be alone with. Sadly the latter even when grown up sometimes do not grow out of this mindset. And then give them the possibilities and anonymity of the Internet, their pseudo courage knows no bounds. Add into that a confusion in their minds between cap size and IQ, and the challenges multiply.

Ignore them. And in my clinical experience the problem will get worse before it gets better, but if you stick with the strategy things will change.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Romaios on May 25, 2013, 11:25:13 AM
Quote from: orthonorm
And I don't Romaios fall into some atheist supporting, gay supporting, [fill in a group you don't like] supporting, guy.

He seems rather caring and very committed to the Church's teachings.

Sorry, but I like the guy a lot and don't want him tossed in with my lot. He deserves better.

Hey, I'm no better than anybody here, nor do I have more faith, just because in my posts I seem committed to what our Church teaches. That's what I choose and want to believe, but I struggle often enough with unbelief, frustration, vain glory and all the heap of human misery.

I'm sorry that what I posted here triggered a fratricidal bashing campaign. I threw the bad seed...      
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 11:28:43 AM
Quote from: orthonorm
And I don't Romaios fall into some atheist supporting, gay supporting, [fill in a group you don't like] supporting, guy.

He seems rather caring and very committed to the Church's teachings.

Sorry, but I like the guy a lot and don't want him tossed in with my lot. He deserves better.

Hey, I'm no better than anybody here, nor do I have more faith, just because in my posts I seem committed to what our Church teaches. That's what I choose and want to believe, but I struggle often enough with unbelief, frustration, vain glory and all the heap of human misery.

I'm sorry that what I posted here triggered a fratricidal bashing campaign. I threw the bad seed...      

Just what the sorta person I described would say.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 11:35:06 AM
Ignore them. And in my clinical experience the problem will get worse before it gets better, but if you stick with the strategy things will change.

I think you are diagnosing the wrong folks.

Since there is nearly zero reward in anything I do, there is no reason to alter much of what I do based on the reaction of nearly anyone.

Now, those who seem keen to enjoy getting upset and responding like yourself and others, might find a peak in frustration as they realize responding with low content posts which increasing become merely attacks on my person have no punishing nor rewarding effect on my behavior, and thus must refrain from posting when and what they wish they could.

In my experience, the frustration does get much worse, but the good news is that is practically disappears once you get the worst of it.

Best of luck. Really, not being bothered by me is small milestone on a long road to health.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: jwinch2 on May 25, 2013, 11:54:51 AM
I don't know what Pope Francis meant, nor whether either his original words or the thinking behind them has been misinterpreted. That said, is it important given he is not an Orthodox bishop? And despite the very hard work of some thoughtful contributors here the sceptics seem to delight in trying to turn the thread into yet another 'knock about' session or metaphorically demonstrate how much higher they can pee up the wall than anyone else. Sad really.

For what its worth, this is a pretty decent commentary on the situation vis-a-vie Pope Francis. 

http://jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html


Occasionally, I have some differences with Akin on his interpretation of things, but he seems to be pretty much on the mark this time around. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 12:03:53 PM
I don't know what Pope Francis meant, nor whether either his original words or the thinking behind them has been misinterpreted. That said, is it important given he is not an Orthodox bishop? And despite the very hard work of some thoughtful contributors here the sceptics seem to delight in trying to turn the thread into yet another 'knock about' session or metaphorically demonstrate how much higher they can pee up the wall than anyone else. Sad really.

For what its worth, this is a pretty decent commentary on the situation vis-a-vie Pope Francis. 

http://jimmyakin.com/2013/05/did-pope-francis-say-that-atheists-can-get-to-heaven-by-good-works.html


Occasionally, I have some differences with Akin on his interpretation of things, but he seems to be pretty much on the mark this time around. 

I fail to see any of the problems with the remarks here.

Pretty traditional stuff. He just has a good brand as the soulless would say.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 25, 2013, 01:30:32 PM
Calm down folks. The jab was directed at what I wrote about the church tax. yawn
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 25, 2013, 01:40:26 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.
lol you should hear my coworker complaining about how "humble" he is and misses the elegance of the Vatican when Benedict was in the chair.

Yeah I like the new pope too, but of course I remain skeptical on any reform he wants to introduce.
I do not think that Pope Francis will attempt to push any reform through officially. Rather, I think that he wants to call RCs and others towards a deeper relationship with Christ through orthopraxis and service.

The moment that really warmed me up to Pope Francis was his off the cuff embrace of a disabled boy; it's particular poignant for those of us who have disabled family members who are all too often marginalized and neglected by society.

The video can be found here, for anyone who's interested: http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2013/04/02/popes-embrace-viral/17633/

Gee, it he were only Orthodox, but then again he wouldn't be pope.....
what....
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 25, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Thanks. I was going to point that out earlier in the thread, but people think I am just hung up on words. And such things don't matter.


This ^ , obviously.

And then what Romaios said about baptisms and marriages and funerals.
I mean how can you guys call yourself Orthodox if you don't believe and trust in what Orthodoxy teaches.
You guys are pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-atheists going to the pie in the sky...I just don't get it.
All you do is criticize Orthodox people for their beliefs, mock everyone who doesn't see it the way you guys see it and make fun of the Orthodox Church itself.
I just don't see anything "orthodox" in you.
But you claim your faith  is "Orthodox"....please!



Paula, you didn't get it. He was most likely obliquely referring to me, as if that accurately describes my beliefs or whatever. but, it's not that terrible , is it, to at least wanna be buried like a christian even if you didn't quite live like one? it further points out to the cultural hegemony christianity still holds.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Romaios on May 25, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
Paula, you didn't get it. He was most likely obliquely referring to me, as if that accurately describes my beliefs or whatever.

I'll add "Loxias" to my coat of arms!

I'd be glad to learn that my description wasn't accurate.

but, it's not that terrible , is it, to at least wanna be buried like a christian even if you didn't quite live like one? it further points out to the cultural hegemony christianity still holds.

"If salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: orthonorm on May 25, 2013, 02:33:22 PM
"If salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."

Hey, welcome to crazy land:

Quote
How does salt lose its saltiness?

. . . .

The first question that must be addressed is this. What is the chemical composition of the salt? Is it table salt, NaCl? For the sake of this argument, we’ll assume that Jesus is speaking of table salt.

http://deneenwhite.com/2007/01/06/how-does-salt-lose-its-saltiness/

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 25, 2013, 02:50:32 PM
Paula, you didn't get it. He was most likely obliquely referring to me, as if that accurately describes my beliefs or whatever.

I'll add "Loxias" to my coat of arms!

I'd be glad to learn that my description wasn't accurate.

but, it's not that terrible , is it, to at least wanna be buried like a christian even if you didn't quite live like one? it further points out to the cultural hegemony christianity still holds.

"If salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot."
Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God'
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 25, 2013, 02:59:57 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

The new Pope is quite ecumenical. He says Jews have a special place and is fuzzy about converting them

The  whole doctrine of no salvation outside the Catholic Church is sooo last week.

If you read his enthronement homily it is all flowers and good feelings. He is really very soft on actual Christianity from what I can see so far.

Counting down to when he kisses a Koran.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 25, 2013, 03:05:17 PM
Orthonorm is great. Even if he slightly hates me. Most of the things you'd think about him aren't actually true if you pay careful attention to his posts.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Romaios on May 25, 2013, 03:06:31 PM
Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God'

Again he said unto me: "Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them: O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Santagranddad on May 25, 2013, 04:10:43 PM
Yes, the mocking continues and now extends to S Matthew 5, 13. See also Leviticus 2, 13.

Let us be clear what is happening here, we have a poster mocking part of Our Lord's Sermon on the Mount. The words of the God man, Jesus Christ, and this on an Orthodox Christian website! This is intolerable and I ask the Moderators to step in.

This cannot stand.

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: augustin717 on May 25, 2013, 04:32:18 PM
nvm
 i'm taking it to random postings
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on May 25, 2013, 04:55:46 PM
This article is just another example of the press misrepresenting what the Pope actually says/does. I have yet to hear the Pope say that "atheists are going to heaven."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: SolEX01 on May 25, 2013, 06:57:59 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Church tax is what you pay in order to mock them with a clean conscience and still get a proper Orthodox funeral.

There's also weddings and baptisms - for those who buy into the capitalist "family" myth.

The concept of Stewardship hasn't made it to the Romanians.   :(
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: rakovsky on May 25, 2013, 07:06:07 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

The new Pope is quite ecumenical. He says Jews have a special place and is fuzzy about converting them. Counting down to when he kisses a Koran.
FYI you are talking more about interfaith, rather than "Ecumenism", which is between Christians.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Dpaula on May 25, 2013, 08:22:27 PM
I like the new pope more and more. First castigating capitalism, then making overtures to atheists. Not that bad. Plus it's also good he really irks those people that care about lace cottas. Not that i care, but most of them deserved to be annoyed.

Why does your faith status say Romanian Orthodox?
It's where I pay the church tax.

You have to pay a church tax to go to heaven?   ???

Heaven? That's "pie-in-the-sky" silliness for gullible fools.

Church tax is what you pay in order to mock them with a clean conscience and still get a proper Orthodox funeral.

There's also weddings and baptisms - for those who buy into the capitalist "family" myth.

The concept of Stewardship hasn't made it to the Romanians.   :(

I can confirm that it did not.
Hopefully, in time, things will change and they will begin to realize that it is not a "tax" they're paying.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JamesR on May 25, 2013, 09:40:47 PM
Hehe you guys aren't in the cool Orthonorm click like me until you've had audio chats with him on lazy summer nights  8)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 25, 2013, 10:12:09 PM
But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  ;D
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 25, 2013, 10:38:25 PM
But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  ;D

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 26, 2013, 10:06:58 AM
Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) :o
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 26, 2013, 11:18:43 PM
In related news, Pope Francis went to bathroom today and no one can confirm that he washed his hands.

You heard it first, folks! The Vatican is a den of filth!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Santagranddad on May 27, 2013, 06:48:06 AM
Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) :o

I cannot make any informed comment in response to the question, "what DO they teach them in these schools?", as regards North America.

In considering the question in a UK context the answer might be multi-faith studies, with children having little exposure to Holy Scripture (New or Old Testament). This has repercussions when exposing them to literature because they are thrown by expressions drawn from Scripture that would have been familiar to preceding generations.

Only talking this week to teachers at primary and secondary a further problem arises. An attitude on the part of students of, "Ownership, and not wanting to or outright refusal to work on anything they deem boring", according to one and echoed by others. Low levels of literacy too don't appear to help. This last point has been repeated by the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) and the Institute of Drectors (IoD).

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 27, 2013, 09:50:40 PM
Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) :o

 Neither the Catholic or Orthodox Church's  teach your interpretation. But thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. I think you may have confused two separate questions..

Serving the poor is not a replacement for the Church.. I have known many Communists ( actual Party members) who worked tirelessly for the poor ( to their credit of course)/ However, that is not a replacement for Christianity..
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 28, 2013, 12:37:06 AM
Neither the Catholic or Orthodox Church's  teach your interpretation. But thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. I think you may have confused two separate questions..

Serving the poor is not a replacement for the Church.. I have known many Communists ( actual Party members) who worked tirelessly for the poor ( to their credit of course)/ However, that is not a replacement for Christianity..

I didn't say "being poor is a replacement for the Church". I quoted the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If you think that's just my own "personal beliefs" ... well ... yes, I guess that would be true, since I've committed myself to following Jesus Christ. If that's Communism, then dress me in red and call me Mao. But I don't think it is.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 28, 2013, 02:41:25 PM
Neither the Catholic or Orthodox Church's  teach your interpretation. But thanks for sharing your personal beliefs. I think you may have confused two separate questions..

Serving the poor is not a replacement for the Church.. I have known many Communists ( actual Party members) who worked tirelessly for the poor ( to their credit of course)/ However, that is not a replacement for Christianity..

I didn't say "being poor is a replacement for the Church". I quoted the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ. If you think that's just my own "personal beliefs" ... well ... yes, I guess that would be true, since I've committed myself to following Jesus Christ. If that's Communism, then dress me in red and call me Mao. But I don't think it is.

Slow down.. You've missed the question..

Somehow..You have tied Ecumenism with helping the poor. You need to explain your logic.
Are you really saying that you can be saved by works alone.. ??

For example, if someone is out side the Faith but helps the poor and needy, that is good enough?  Therefore we should be Ecumenical since helping the poor is the Prime Directive.. so to speak???

That would be a very innovative interpretation of Scripture and not something taught by the Church either Catholic or Orthodox, so help me out here and explain your thinking..

Thanks
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jonathan Gress on May 28, 2013, 03:32:55 PM
Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

So Our Lord was guilty of heresy when He said that even people who hadn't realized they'd known Him in this life could still go to Heaven because they'd served Him through others - and those who kept calling Him "Lord, Lord!" could still go to Hell?

Let me give you the full quote so you can tell us exactly where the heresy part kicks in. It's from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verses 31 through 46:

Quote
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the right.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

(Honestly, what DO they teach them in these schools?) :o

I don't think those passages mean what you think they mean. What Christ is talking about is showing mercy to poor people who are not Christ. What He's saying is that, when you give food to a beggar named Joe, you are actually in a mystical manner showing the same mercy to Christ. He is NOT saying it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Him.

You need BOTH faith AND works. One without the other doesn't cut it.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 28, 2013, 07:16:01 PM
I don't think those passages mean what you think they mean. What Christ is talking about is showing mercy to poor people who are not Christ. What He's saying is that, when you give food to a beggar named Joe, you are actually in a mystical manner showing the same mercy to Christ. He is NOT saying it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Him.

You need BOTH faith AND works. One without the other doesn't cut it.

What I'm talking about is the idea that one absolutely MUST be a member of the visible Church in order to be saved. The Catholic Church (and most of the non-Internet Orthodox I've met) says that while it's extraordinary, it is possible to be a member of the Church without realizing it.

And whenever Jesus was asked "who would be saved?" He responded with stories like this one, or the parable of the Good Samaritan. (Samaritans definitely being "heretics" in the eyes of the Jews, btw.) It does not seem to me, reading the words of Christ Himself, that He was overly concerned about His followers belonging to the "right" Church, but more about how their belief made them ACT towards others.

This is not the "social Gospel" - it IS The Gospel!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: yeshuaisiam on May 28, 2013, 07:30:51 PM
Well when you think you are God, it sort of makes sense... Unfortunately he'll find out he's not God.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 28, 2013, 07:56:08 PM
Well when you think you are God, it sort of makes sense... Unfortunately he'll find out he's not God.

Sorry, but who are you talking about?  ???

If it's Jesus, He WAS God.

If it's the Pope, neither he - nor ANY Catholic - thinks the Pope is God.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: podkarpatska on May 28, 2013, 07:56:48 PM
Well when you think you are God, it sort of makes sense... Unfortunately he'll find out he's not God.

Not clever, not funny because it's not true. Those of us who are Orthodox have plenty of legitimate issues with the Papacy, but you can't win a debate with such a patently false premise. Neither papal supremacy, papal infallibility , the title of "Vicar of Christ" or any other assertion, even those of the most rabid, sedevactantivist-minded ultramontanist claim the Pope to "be" God.

Besides, the man did not preach universal salvation, he spoke of redemption. Fallen mankind is redeemed through Christ's crucifixion but not all shall be saved. And Orthodoxy does NOT preclude salvation outside of the Church, it teaches a, for lack of a better term, a grudging "agnosticism" regarding that premise for with God, ALL things are possible.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: stanley123 on May 28, 2013, 09:34:23 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 28, 2013, 10:16:49 PM
I don't think those passages mean what you think they mean. What Christ is talking about is showing mercy to poor people who are not Christ. What He's saying is that, when you give food to a beggar named Joe, you are actually in a mystical manner showing the same mercy to Christ. He is NOT saying it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in Him.

You need BOTH faith AND works. One without the other doesn't cut it.

What I'm talking about is the idea that one absolutely MUST be a member of the visible Church in order to be saved. The Catholic Church (and most of the non-Internet Orthodox I've met) says that while it's extraordinary, it is possible to be a member of the Church without realizing it.

And whenever Jesus was asked "who would be saved?" He responded with stories like this one, or the parable of the Good Samaritan. (Samaritans definitely being "heretics" in the eyes of the Jews, btw.) It does not seem to me, reading the words of Christ Himself, that He was overly concerned about His followers belonging to the "right" Church, but more about how their belief made them ACT towards others.

This is not the "social Gospel" - it IS The Gospel!

Then let's discuss the doctrine of "There is no salvation outside the ( Catholic/Orthodox) Church"..This idea is often miss understood IMHO.

In the first place, God can save whomever he saves. With that said, he has also made it clear through his Church that there is no salvation outside of it. So what exactly does that mean?

People absolutely cant be saved.. BY... other faiths. If you are a Buddhist, even though you do virtuous acts and a really great person, you are not saved by Buddhism. If God saves you, it is by and through his Church. Sometimes we dont exactly understand how that happens, but we are not supposed to. We are to convert people and actively bring them to Baptism and Faith within the Church. How and when God uses his Church past our normal experience is way above our pay grade.

When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran or says Jews don't have to convert, he is saying that they can be saved.. BY.. Islam or Judaism. That reveals him to be at odds with Church teachings.. I will refrain from characterizing him further, but the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church is Orthodox and there for a reason and should not be ignored lightly.

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 28, 2013, 10:40:15 PM
When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  ::)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 28, 2013, 10:45:01 PM
When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  ::)

As long as it's not to bow to a Koran...  :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 28, 2013, 11:20:11 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. ::)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Santagranddad on May 29, 2013, 04:27:37 AM
To take issue with this or any other Pope because of what he believes, teaches or actually does is one thing, but to take issue with him on something he doesn't believe, hasn't said or done on the basis of a journalist's 'story' is crazy.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 29, 2013, 08:24:37 AM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. ::)

LOL, so true!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 29, 2013, 01:14:31 PM
When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  ::)

I understand.. To me it speaks to the issue. If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way so if you want you can let me know what the alternative interpretations  are.  If not, that's fine.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 29, 2013, 09:41:06 PM
I'm not responding to the poster above me directly, but would just like to say, if anyone here thinks I "venerate the Koran", then I guess there's nothing left to say.  :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 29, 2013, 10:06:22 PM
I'm not responding to the poster above me directly, but would just like to say, if anyone here thinks I "venerate the Koran", then I guess there's nothing left to say.  :P

I think you may have trouble with basic reading comprehension. No one suggested that you venerated a Koran.


(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRECMy092tF5POTDz7xN-sA8NQN9GAla1y04InVpzfUmDVwSsqk)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_AxH79Xw_eDV4TVAr47zqRkfNzSwksiPCHsVh2oXFXrkp1rxDMA)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 29, 2013, 10:08:40 PM
I'm not responding to the poster above me directly, but would just like to say, if anyone here thinks I "venerate the Koran", then I guess there's nothing left to say.  :P

Nice try. We all know you Byzantine Catholics are really just crypto-Islamists trying to convert Western Christians with the "mysticism" of the East.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 29, 2013, 10:48:21 PM
When a Roman Pope kisses a Koran.

And that's the point where I bow out of this thread.  ::)

I understand.. To me it speaks to the issue. If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way so if you want you can let me know what the alternative interpretations  are.  If not, that's fine.
Pope John Paul II's kissing of the Koran surely seems to have been imprudent, but you are wrong to claim that JP II thought that Islam can save. This is quite evident in all of his writings.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 29, 2013, 11:57:40 PM
If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 30, 2013, 12:01:42 AM
If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 
That's a very wise and charitable observation. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on May 30, 2013, 12:46:26 AM
I think you may have trouble with basic reading comprehension. No one suggested that you venerated a Koran.

You do know that there are actual human beings reading your posts, right? Not just nameless, faceless, soulless automatons? Because that was a tad rude.  :-[
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 30, 2013, 03:13:55 AM
I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.

I know, I know, there are probably canons against all that and then there's the whole "lovesupreme is a dirty ecumenist who thinks it would be okay if the Pope sacrificed children to Moloch if it meant making the Moloch worshippers feel better" point that you can sling back at me. ::) I just don't think this is worth getting all upset about. Yes, a practicing Christian probably shouldn't make it a habit of reverencing heterodox religious texts, but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency. It would be no different if he bowed to a statue of the buddha when visiting the Dalai Lama. It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you." Again, not the sort of thing most people should be doing, but an international figure like the pope? There's a time and a place for everything.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 30, 2013, 03:19:43 AM
I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.

I know, I know, there are probably canons against all that and then there's the whole "lovesupreme is a dirty ecumenist who thinks it would be okay if the Pope sacrificed children to Moloch if it meant making the Moloch worshippers feel better" point that you can sling back at me. ::) I just don't think this is worth getting all upset about. Yes, a practicing Christian probably shouldn't make it a habit of reverencing heterodox religious texts, but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency. It would be no different if he bowed to a statue of the buddha when visiting the Dalai Lama. It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you." Again, not the sort of thing most people should be doing, but an international figure like the pope? There's a time and a place for everything.

Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: dzheremi on May 30, 2013, 03:29:23 AM
It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: LBK on May 30, 2013, 04:07:00 AM
Quote
but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency.

Nonsense. Have the representatives of other faiths (Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, etc) kissed Bibles out of "diplomatic leniency"?  :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 30, 2013, 08:16:41 AM
I think most people, Catholics included, will agree that kissing the Koran was an imprudent move on PJPII's part.  That does not take away all the good that he did, but I don't think it is extreme to say that he used very poor judgement in that instance.

But hey, who of us have not used very poor judgement at some point in our lives?  Perhaps not in kissing a Koran, but I'm sure is some other aspect of our lives.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 30, 2013, 10:02:50 AM
I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.

I know, I know, there are probably canons against all that and then there's the whole "lovesupreme is a dirty ecumenist who thinks it would be okay if the Pope sacrificed children to Moloch if it meant making the Moloch worshippers feel better" point that you can sling back at me. ::) I just don't think this is worth getting all upset about. Yes, a practicing Christian probably shouldn't make it a habit of reverencing heterodox religious texts, but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency. It would be no different if he bowed to a statue of the buddha when visiting the Dalai Lama. It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you." Again, not the sort of thing most people should be doing, but an international figure like the pope? There's a time and a place for everything.
Lol!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Surnaturel on May 30, 2013, 10:05:35 AM
It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.
I think it was meant to be a gesture of respect for the Muslims he was greeting but I agree with everyone else ITT that it was imprudent and risks sending the wrong message about a heterodox religion.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 30, 2013, 10:13:57 AM
I don't get it. Pope John Paul II probably just kissed the Koran out of respect for the Muslims who were present with him. It was a gesture of respect, not a proclamation of faith.


After this incident happened, and whenever it was brought up, this was the common explanation offered for the act.  But it's insufficient, IMO.  First of all, was it a habit of his to kiss gifts given to him by diplomats, religious leaders, and other high level delegations?  When the Patriarch of Antioch visited Rome with some Indian bishops, and the latter gifted JPII with some native handicrafts, did he kiss them?  No photos were leaked of a Pope kissing miniature boats and elephants.  :) 

More than that, though, he's the Pope.  As Pope, he's the head of the largest Christian body in the world, and so even within Christendom, he's an influential figure, especially back then, when he was Pope for so long that not too many really remembered the last one.  Outside of Christendom, he's the head of the religion, or at least its visible face and spokesman, for all intents and purposes.  He may have to be diplomatic, but there are ways to show that which also do not appear to be idolatry.  No "diplomat" kisses gifts. 

As I said earlier, I think it has more to do with JPII the person.  Whether you want to ascribe some syncretist views to him, or his own understanding of "inter-religious dialogue" and whether diplomatic kissing is acceptable, or JPII as an actor who understood the visual impact of signs and gestures, or whatever, I think it has more to do with the man. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 30, 2013, 12:26:01 PM
If you venerate a Koran you are saying it has the power to save. I don't see how it can be taken any other way...

Kissing a Koran doesn't necessarily imply that it has the power to save.  It can mean that, I suppose, but that's not the only meaning.  We kiss icons of saints all the time, but we don't say they can save us: they and we are saved by Christ.  We kiss lots of people, but they can't save us: we show our love, esteem, and care by showing this sort of affection.  No high school boy ever made out with a girl out of soteriological considerations: I need not elaborate.  And so on.   

Not that I think JPII was correct by any means to venerate the Koran; not by a long shot.  But affirming the salvific nature of Islam is not the only possible interpretation one could derive from this, though because it is one major interpretation, it should've been avoided at all costs.  I think the kiss said more about JPII the person than it did about how JPII viewed Islam. 

When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?

options:

1. This is evil = No veneration

2. This has no grace = No veneration

3. This has a degree of grace sufficient to be worthy of veneration. Ergo it has at least some power to save = veneration

4. One religion is pretty much as good as the next = veneration

5. I'm nervous and wasnt thinking. I should never have done that. My teachings contradict my actions = veneration

Now lets move on to Pope Francis whose teachings we are just now learning more about. He has strongly implied that other religions have the power to save. He said Jews have a special place and therfore need not covert, for just one example.

Counting down to when he kisses a Koran...   
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 30, 2013, 12:32:00 PM
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-god-redeemed-everyone-not-just-catholics/

Pope Francis: God redeemed everyone, ‘not just Catholics’

...To both atheists and believers, he said that “if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.”

In a passage that may prompt a theological debate about the nature of salvation, the pontiff also declared that God “has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!”

“Even the atheists,” he said to those who might question his assertion. “Everyone!”
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 30, 2013, 12:42:21 PM
When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?   

Oh sure.  It's not like I don't see a problem with it.  Whatever we might ascribe to the faults, weaknesses, "diplomacy" or whatever of the man JPII, the photo op alone is scandalous.  I just think that an understanding of the former, while not excusing the latter, is helpful in maintaining perspective.  

My mother's next door neighbours are Sikhs.  They are the most wonderful people I've known.  They are more "Orthodox" and "Christian" than any actual Orthodox I've met.  They make all their food for the day in the morning and bring a portion over for my mother so that she doesn't have to cook.  Because they're vegetarians, and my mom doesn't want to waste the food, she ends up by default observing the canonical fasts more than she ever did when she was in control of her own cooking.  :)  But often, they'll bring over some special food which they offered to their god in their temple.  By offering it to the god, it is blessed, and they eat it and give it to others to eat as a blessing.  A very eucharistic custom, if you will.  But I refuse to eat it.  If I know they're going to offer it, I'll make sure I'm not in a position to be offered the food, and if they give it to me, I'll accept it but discard it later; the one occasion where it was inappropriate to refuse, I signed the cross over it and ate, believing that the cross and prayer sanctified it from any "defilement".  Is this too scrupulous?  My mother thinks so...she'll eat it if she knows it's good, but if it's iffy, she'll pass--false gods don't factor into the question for her.  I try to err on the side of caution, even if I could simply sign the cross over everything and eat.    

So personally I am careful with things like that, and if I can do that, so can the Pope of Rome.  But if there's a "one-off" occurrence where he does something that looks sketchy, perhaps we should look into it a little more before we prepare the fire to throw him upon.  It's not like he spent his pontificate kissing Korans: no one's ever seen him do it more than that one time.  
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on May 30, 2013, 12:50:07 PM
When you venerate the Holy Book of another religion it is surely an endorsement of sorts..Will you concede at least that?   

Oh sure.  It's not like I don't see a problem with it.  Whatever we might ascribe to the faults, weaknesses, "diplomacy" or whatever of the man JPII, the photo op alone is scandalous.  I just think that an understanding of the former, while not excusing the latter, is helpful in maintaining perspective.  

My mother's next door neighbours are Sikhs.  They are the most wonderful people I've known.  They are more "Orthodox" and "Christian" than any actual Orthodox I've met.  They make all their food for the day in the morning and bring a portion over for my mother so that she doesn't have to cook.  Because they're vegetarians, and my mom doesn't want to waste the food, she ends up by default observing the canonical fasts more than she ever did when she was in control of her own cooking.  :)  But often, they'll bring over some special food which they offered to their god in their temple.  By offering it to the god, it is blessed, and they eat it and give it to others to eat as a blessing.  A very eucharistic custom, if you will.  But I refuse to eat it.  If I know they're going to offer it, I'll make sure I'm not in a position to be offered the food, and if they give it to me, I'll accept it but discard it later; the one occasion where it was inappropriate to refuse, I signed the cross over it and ate, believing that the cross and prayer sanctified it from any "defilement".  Is this too scrupulous?  My mother thinks so...she'll eat it if she knows it's good, but if it's iffy, she'll pass--false gods don't factor into the question for her.  I try to err on the side of caution, even if I could simply sign the cross over everything and eat.    

So personally I am careful with things like that, and if I can do that, so can the Pope of Rome.  But if there's a "one-off" occurrence where he does something that looks sketchy, perhaps we should look into it a little more before we prepare the fire to throw him upon.  It's not like he spent his pontificate kissing Korans: no one's ever seen him do it more than that one time.  

Some of the most dedicated people I have ever met to helping the poor were Communists. They were extremely self sacrificing.

We should now look at the philosophy of Pope Francis whose idea's do seem to be at odds with Church Doctrine both Catholic and Orthodox when it comes to salvation.  I have already posted something about it.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jonathan Gress on May 30, 2013, 01:35:49 PM
We should be careful not to idolize "good people".

It is possible to do good outside the Church and apart from Christ: we aren't Calvinists who believe that no objective good can come from human effort. But remember that it's not enough to be "good"; we have to be "perfect". If we starting thinking that other people are so "good" that they can earn heaven just by their deeds, we have begun to make idols out of them. No one is that good. We all fall short, which is why we need Christ, to participate in His perfection and that is how we are saved.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 30, 2013, 04:11:23 PM
Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.

I'm sorry, but my immediate reaction to this statement is that it is beyond stupidity. You do understand that Islam is not an idolatrous religion, right? They worship the same God that we worship, but their views on Him are skewed. If you think the Pope kissed the Koran because he thought it would bestow upon him magical powers, then, just... wow.

It's saying, "hey, I respect your beliefs because I respect you."

There at least two problems with this idea:

(1) The underlying idea that if you respect someone, you will/must/should respect the content of their beliefs.
(2) Because this is your intention, any actions you perform in pursuit of (1) are understandable, and will be understood as you intended by the people you intend to send a particular message to via those actions.

I don't see any reason why either of these should be entertained by anyone who is serious about their faith or interfaith relations, Pope or not.

I never said it was a good idea, I just said it was most likely the Pope's rationale for kissing the Koran. I don't need to defend his decision, but I would at least like to clarify that he was acting out of ecumenical desire, not some sort of idolatrous urge.

Quote
but Pope John Paul II represented the largest body of Christians in the world, and he needed to show some diplomatic leniency.

Nonsense. Have the representatives of other faiths (Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, etc) kissed Bibles out of "diplomatic leniency"?  :P


I can't answer this question. Google it. My point was that I can understand why he did what he did. Maybe "needed" was too strong a word. I would say that the Pope certainly felt compelled to do what he did, given the state of Christian-Muslim relations and his image as a globe-trotting, ecumenical figure. Again, I don't take issue with people criticizing his actions. I do take issue with people misconstruing them and then turning them into arguments against genuine ecumenism.

Anyway, this is where I bow out as well. I have pretty thin skin and I'm prone to bouts of frustration, and this thread is not helping me one bit. And I'm pretty tired of listening to internet watchdogs hurl insults from their armchairs when there's real work to be done. So, mea culpa, God have mercy on me, and peace out.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 30, 2013, 04:20:45 PM
Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.

Fr. Dmitri Dudko said atheists come to faith "through the back door."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 30, 2013, 04:33:29 PM
Yeah you would think God not existing would have them shut up about it, but the opposite is true. Why go on about something you believe doesn't exist?

I would even argue they love God to some degree.

Fr. Dmitri Dudko said atheists come to faith "through the back door."
Must be a lot of back doors then.

Except I wouldn't call them doors.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 30, 2013, 04:35:41 PM
Now that I think about it, God plays a big role in politics so I guess you really can't shut up about it.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 30, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
But I'll let theist gal weigh in on this.

(waking from post-vacation sleep) whuh?? are you saying I'm fat?

OH! An opinion, you want! I can do that!

My opinion is the same as Our Lord's - remember all that stuff He said about how some people would be surprised to find that they'd ministered to Him and were thus going to be rewarded? Something about, "Whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren, you do unto Me"?

Of course, that would be an ecumenical matter ...  ;D

Or it means winking at heresy because you don't want to cause a stir. Im okay, your okay .. It has little to do with ministering to people.

It's hard to wink at heresy when you're charged with perpetuating heresies, just in new and creative ways. That said, I think Pope Francis would be more accurate with theology than just about any journalist, except maybe Terry Matingly or someone.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 30, 2013, 04:38:38 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

They got two stories out of one event...two stories so far.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 30, 2013, 04:39:50 PM
some people are taking the huffington post seriously?!
 ::)
The huffington post now claims that the Vatican says that atheists cannot be saved. I am not sure if this means that the Vatican is saying that the Pope was wrong.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/vatican-atheists-cant-be-saved_n_3346201.html

Boy, you gotta love what passes as journalism nowadays. "Pope reneges on proclamation that he never actually made." Yeah, let's pretend we didn't misconstrue the pope's words and call out the Vatican on backtracking. ::)

Huff Post says, "Who's infallible now, Pope Francis?"
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 30, 2013, 04:41:51 PM
HuffPost is garbage.

I don't care if it's a media aggregate either.

Their "pieces" are junk. I dont care what's going on in the news, but I like to read good pieces instead.

The people commenting are nauseating just like YouTube comments.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on May 30, 2013, 04:47:57 PM
Muslims do not worship the same God the Christians do. Nor do the Jews. They deny the Holy Trinity. ("No one comes to the Father but by Me.") They deny the true God. They worship a conception of their own mind, an idol.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on May 30, 2013, 04:49:29 PM
Muslims do not worship the same God the Christians do. Nor do the Jews. They deny the Holy Trinity. ("No one comes to the Father but by Me.") They deny the true God. They worship a conception of their own mind, an idol.
Yo if you are gonna quote me make sure you put my name in there for credit.

And date it to.

My life on here is one big timeline that immediately sloped down into a black sinking whole of nothingness.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: William on May 30, 2013, 06:05:58 PM
Except for idolatry, there's no time or place for that.

I'm sorry, but my immediate reaction to this statement is that it is beyond stupidity. You do understand that Islam is not an idolatrous religion, right? They worship the same God that we worship, but their views on Him are skewed. If you think the Pope kissed the Koran because he thought it would bestow upon him magical powers, then, just... wow.

It's okay, I had the same reaction reading your inane defense of the pope venerating the book which condemns all those who believe in the Life-Creating Trinity as blasphemers.

It's very convenient of you to limit idolatry to premodern paganism. I'm sure if the pope went prostrate before a statue of Ganesh you'd be the first to say Hinduism is not idolatrous because deep down they believe in a kind of modalistic monotheism.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 30, 2013, 06:29:50 PM
Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master, I would be the first in line to defend him from you bigotted, anti-ecumenical purists. I fully embrace modalism and the One World Religion promised to us by Our Great and Supreme Pontiff, the pope, aka the Anti-Christ. I am completely insincere in all my arguments, but you, with your infallible logic and Orthodox purity, have defeated me. I will now crawl back into the ninth circle of hell, where my Supreme Master Satan will continue to teach me ways to subtly undermine the purity of your "precious" Orthodox Church. Hopefully, you won't be able to catch me next time, otherwise, I'll be done for for sure!

Mwa ha ha. ha. ha. Haaaaaaaaaa.. ugh.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 30, 2013, 06:38:43 PM
Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master...

You must be racist.  Surely if Ganesh was your god, you'd know that he's light-skinned.  But because he's a deity worshiped by those darkies in the jungle, I guess he has to be dark too.  What a horrible little person you are. 




Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.     
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Arachne on May 30, 2013, 06:50:31 PM
Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black (http://themes.wap4mob.com/themespreview/load--Nokia%20Themes--Nokia%20S40--5310%20Themes--Black_Ganesh_Ji%28wap4mob.com%29.nth.gif) and blue (http://ganesha.info/images/ganesh01.jpg)! :D
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 30, 2013, 06:52:22 PM
Yes, William, you are absolutely correct. If the pope bowed to my Dark Elephantine Master...

You must be racist.  Surely if Ganesh was your god, you'd know that he's light-skinned.  But because he's a deity worshiped by those darkies in the jungle, I guess he has to be dark too.  What a horrible little person you are. 




Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.     

Oh yes, in addition to be a filthy idolater, I am also a card-carrying member of the KKK. At 5'3", you're also correct that I'm a horrible little person. Also, I smell bad. Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!

And for what it's worth, Ganesh is also portrayed with darker skin tones. See Arachne's post. And yeah, I know this because I literally have his images posted on every square inch of my apartment, aka The Den of Satanic Ecumenism.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 30, 2013, 06:58:12 PM
Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black (http://themes.wap4mob.com/themespreview/load--Nokia%20Themes--Nokia%20S40--5310%20Themes--Black_Ganesh_Ji%28wap4mob.com%29.nth.gif) and blue (http://ganesha.info/images/ganesh01.jpg)! :D

That's because racists like lovesupreme probably beat him.  Poor guy, he's too intimidated by the scorn that comes to male elephants from domestic violence at the hands of women...
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on May 30, 2013, 06:59:11 PM
Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!


If it's any consolation, I'm a monophysite.  :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: lovesupreme on May 30, 2013, 07:01:59 PM
Curse you Orthodox Christians for rooting out the Truth!


If it's any consolation, I'm a monophysite.  :P

Oh, my mistake. I definitely shouldn't have called you an Orthodox Christian then. Really, more of humanity-denying spirit-Messiah-worshipper. Welcome, brother!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Arachne on May 31, 2013, 06:08:13 PM
Disclaimer: I'm totally kidding.  But not about Ganesh, he's fair-complexioned.

Now also available in black (http://themes.wap4mob.com/themespreview/load--Nokia%20Themes--Nokia%20S40--5310%20Themes--Black_Ganesh_Ji%28wap4mob.com%29.nth.gif) and blue (http://ganesha.info/images/ganesh01.jpg)! :D

That's because racists like lovesupreme probably beat him.  Poor guy, he's too intimidated by the scorn that comes to male elephants from domestic violence at the hands of women...

Dunno, mine (http://mascot.crystalxp.net/png/eikichi-onizuka-heffalump-2642.png) was always of the bluish kind, and quite happy to be so... :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Gunnarr on June 07, 2013, 03:25:02 AM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Gunnarr on June 07, 2013, 03:26:47 AM
About the pope, at first I thought this would be the last pope we will have after hearing this...

but I looked more into what he said, and he was not saying atheists are going to heaven. He said anyone can do good works which are pleasing to God, even if they are by a non believer.

I do not know if this is correct theology or anything, but I cannot see it meaning "an atheist which does good work will go to heaven"...
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on June 07, 2013, 09:14:32 AM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on June 07, 2013, 09:58:54 AM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: J Michael on June 07, 2013, 04:35:00 PM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty ;)) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  :D.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on June 07, 2013, 05:25:09 PM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Sure, I get what you're saying as well. I think it's this: people might THINK they're worshipping a totally different god (or gods).

But only the One True God knows what's in their hearts and what their real intentions are, so only He knows whether they would worship Him, if they really knew Him.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on June 07, 2013, 05:28:43 PM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty ;)) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  :D.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

My eyes are really going funky.  I just read that as saying the definitive answer is above my gay parade.  :o 

I need to go to the eye doctor.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on June 07, 2013, 05:46:33 PM
Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.
My eyes are really going funky.  I just read that as saying the definitive answer is above my gay parade.  :o 

I need to go to the eye doctor.

 :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
My sympathies, but that is really funny!  ;D
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on June 07, 2013, 05:51:00 PM
I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on June 08, 2013, 08:40:51 PM
I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  ;) ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on June 08, 2013, 08:50:00 PM
I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  ;) ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on June 08, 2013, 09:32:15 PM
Quotes from "What about the Non-Orthodox, by Fr. David Tillman, page 4 Concilliar Press.

"It must be remembered that it is Jesus Christ alone that judges who is or is not saved. The Bible teaches that not all those in the Church will be saved, but some who are never visibly in the Church are nevertheless near and dear to the Lord.  Jesus is the exclusive Judge of all.  On the last and great day, all human beings who have ever lived will be brought before the Lord for the final Judgement. "

Page 11: "We are simply not given all the facts regarding the mystery of even our own salvation, much less anyone else's.  On one level, we are only given those facts that we need to know in order to be saved,  And , yes, we are only saved in the Church. "
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: theistgal on June 09, 2013, 04:02:17 PM
I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  ;) ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that


He stated it was his opinion, not that he knew it for a fact. And I don't think he's the only one who has that opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of Orthodox share that opinion, since they've actually told me so IRL conversations.   :)

And let me turn the tables: do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church? Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats would seem to suggest that none of us should be overly confident ...
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on June 09, 2013, 05:32:03 PM
I hope C.S. Lewis is correct in his quote above, but I would hesitate espousing it as a known truth, because I don't see where Christ or the Church have ever taught that, even if the Church typically asserts quite a bit of cautiousness in saying who will and will not be saved.

And yet it's the Orthodox (at least the Orthodox that I've met and spoken with in person, whose books I've read, and/or whose articles I've read online, other than the Netodox  ;) ) who constantly use the expression "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where it is not", which kinda says the same thing.

The well worn phrase you mention there is an good one (although I have typically heard it said: We know where the Holy Spirit is, but we don't know where He is not), but it differs from Lewis' quote in one key respect.  To those who are outside of Orthodoxy, it makes no statement of confidence in their status. They MAY be imbued with the Spirit, but we don't know.  Lewis states that people who worship a false god ignorantly are actually worshiping the true God.  That seems a bit more far-reaching and making a statement of confidence when no confidence can be assured. He is in effect stating that God WILL accept them, not we HOPE God will accept them.  Unless he is a prophet, I don't know how he gets to that point.

C.S. Lewis said this:

"I think that


He stated it was his opinion, not that he knew it for a fact. And I don't think he's the only one who has that opinion. And I'm pretty sure a lot of Orthodox share that opinion, since they've actually told me so IRL conversations.   :)

And let me turn the tables: do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church? Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats would seem to suggest that none of us should be overly confident ...

"do you KNOW for a fact that God will accept you, simply because you are a member of the visible Orthodox Church?"
The simple answer is No.  Be Christ like, and pray that you may be granted Great Mercy!
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Father H on June 09, 2013, 05:38:42 PM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty ;)) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  :D.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shanghaiski on June 09, 2013, 05:51:27 PM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty ;)) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  :D.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Shiny on June 09, 2013, 06:05:08 PM
Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
that is how i have understood it also.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on June 09, 2013, 09:44:06 PM


Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.

Yes, at least not the Allah we believe in....
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Father H on June 10, 2013, 06:26:16 PM


Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.

Yes, at least not the Allah we believe in....

Although this is even a debatable point.  St. John of Damascus lists them as heretics, not as heathen.  This means that they worship and view the true God in a wrong manner, not a different god.  But then again others have argued differently with some good points. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jetavan on December 17, 2013, 01:35:09 PM
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for (http://ncronline.org/blogs/its-official-jesuit-faber-saint) Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 17, 2013, 01:45:44 PM
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for (http://ncronline.org/blogs/its-official-jesuit-faber-saint) Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.
I believe it was stated somewhere that one of his reasons for doing so was the already widespread veneration of St. Peter Faber S.J.

on another note as the product of Jesuit education I'm glad to see this happen I have to agree with HH Francis that Peter Faber is my favorite Jesuit
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 17, 2013, 02:35:40 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 17, 2013, 02:38:42 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 17, 2013, 02:40:11 PM
Lovesupreme, I do not understand how you can say Muslims worship the same god as the orthodox.


That is contradicting!


Muslims worship a single god, who has no son. How can that god be the same of the orthodox? who believe he has a son?



I am just trying to understand how you can possibly believe such a thing... perhaps I misunderstand

Since there is only one God, how is it possible for ANYONE to worship a "different god"? There IS no "different" God out there.

The Jews and the Samaritans had very different views on who God was and how to worship Him, and yet  Jesus didn't say that they worshipped "different Gods". He told them both they had wrong ideas about who God is, but He didn't say they were worshipping someone else.

I have heard this argument before and I kind of agree with it, but at the same time, I don't know how you can then reconcile it with someone who worships Zeus or nature.  If those are different gods (or are they?) then why wouldn't Allah be a different god?

Zeus, nature, etc. are gods, not God.  My understanding (which might be faulty ;)) is that "Allah" is Arabic for God.  THE God.  I guess you could say that, like the Jews and Samaritans, muslims have a different view on who God (Allah) is, and how to worship Him, but that Allah is still God.  (I'll duck now  :D.)  I have heard some, both Catholic and Orthodox, say that Allah is NOT our God, THE God, but I don't know if anyone has an "official" stance on that.

Like so much else, a definitive answer is above my pay grade.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God.  It is the Orthodox Christian word for God in Arabic, and was in Christian use long before Mohammed appended it to his new religion.  No Christian can claim that Allah is not their God, as Allah is the God of the universe, the God worshipped by Christians, regardless of how Muslims or others utilize the name.       

Yes.

It was explained to me by a hieromonk that Mohammed had transferred prior belief in a pagan Arab moon god to Allah, hence the confusion. Muslims do not really worship Allah.
And doesn't the word "God" also come from a pagan deity also?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: hecma925 on December 17, 2013, 02:53:42 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: J Michael on December 17, 2013, 03:13:11 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

St. Henry VIII?? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 17, 2013, 03:20:35 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 17, 2013, 03:26:05 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: J Michael on December 17, 2013, 03:26:55 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Really?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: biro on December 17, 2013, 03:28:04 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Haven't heard that. Could be true, I just didn't know before.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 17, 2013, 03:29:45 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

I didn't even know Anglicans had their own saints.

I think the Episcopal Church USA venerates C.S. Lewis as a saint.

Really?
I believe so, I can't find the article I read it in right at the moment but I'll keep digging
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 17, 2013, 03:33:15 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 17, 2013, 04:50:56 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jetavan on December 17, 2013, 05:01:42 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .
It was never really in effect.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 17, 2013, 05:15:04 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 17, 2013, 05:36:06 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies while not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jetavan on December 17, 2013, 05:36:59 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 17, 2013, 05:41:56 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 17, 2013, 05:42:31 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

Thank you
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 17, 2013, 05:43:32 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: FormerCalvinist on December 17, 2013, 05:55:42 PM
Personally, I think the Vatican's teaching on ex cathedra statements exists to allow doctrine to be changed, rather than to solidify things. The reliance upon ex cathedra statements allows statements that do not fit the criteria to be disregarded, even if they represent a consistent teaching of the Church in the past. You can cast doubt on whatever is convenient in order to push an innovative view. I think the issue with who is considered in or out of the Church is relevant here. And since there's no consensus on which statements are actually ex cathedra, besides a small number of exceptions, doctrine becomes amorphous, and you end up with the current situation where there is apparently no objective quality to the faith other than what the current magisterium says is "tradition."
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 17, 2013, 06:02:01 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?

Possibly. As Archbishop Gasser argues in the relatio, there is no standard form for an ex cathedra statement, because the dogma of Papal Infallibility was (at the time of the First Vatican Council) "not new" but rather something which functioned implicitly throughout the history of the Church, such that thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have already been issued from the Apostolic See. The only criterion which must be met to determine if a teaching on faith or morals is infallible (and I think we can agree, can we not, that this matter concerns faith or morals) is that it was issued by the Roman Pontiff as the head of the Church in relation to the Church Universal. And it seems reasonable to me at least, to believe that since Pope Eugene was teaching this in a conciliar document, while functioning as the head of the council (the council itself being united with the head bishop thereby representing the Church Universal), that this statement could have been implicitly ex cathedra.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 17, 2013, 06:50:01 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8

He doesn't say they are saints...simply that those who persecute us don't make a denominational distinction

Yup.. I think that is correct.. He also implies that Anglicans and Catholics  are saved in the same way. In other words, the doctrine of there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church is no longer in effect .

You are mistaken. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address extra ecclessium nulla salus:

 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).

Does the CCC negate Pope Eugene's statement in Cantate Domino that one who dies not in unity with "the Catholic Church" (his words), even if his blood is shed for Christ, is damned?
He was not speaking ex cathedra.

How do we know? How do we know that Pope Eugene's statement from Cantate Domino was not in fact one of the "thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments" spoken of by Arcbishop Gasser in the Official Relatio delivered at the First Vatican Council?

Does it meet the requirements for an ex cathedra statement?

Possibly. As Archbishop Gasser argues in the relatio, there is no standard form for an ex cathedra statement, because the dogma of Papal Infallibility was (at the time of the First Vatican Council) "not new" but rather something which functioned implicitly throughout the history of the Church, such that thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have already been issued from the Apostolic See. The only criterion which must be met to determine if a teaching on faith or morals is infallible (and I think we can agree, can we not, that this matter concerns faith or morals) is that it was issued by the Roman Pontiff as the head of the Church in relation to the Church Universal. And it seems reasonable to me at least, to believe that since Pope Eugene was teaching this in a conciliar document, while functioning as the head of the council (the council itself being united with the head bishop thereby representing the Church Universal), that this statement could have been implicitly ex cathedra.
There are requirements and I've posted them on here before. However one more important thing is for its to be true. The fact is that all salvation comes through the Catholic Church. None is found outside it. God's mercy is infinite and man may not know the depths to whom Gods mercy extends. As such we cannot limit communion to mere physical and visible communion. As such , and what the CCC tries to point out, spiritual communion is a reality because of this and as such Pope Eugenes statement is still in line with the CCC as his pronouncement is speaking of a people assumed to not be in any sort of communion with the church. extra ecclessium nulla salus
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 17, 2013, 07:02:26 PM
Pope Pius IX, more than 100 years before Pope Paul VI and Vatican II.

Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863
#7 "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching.

Denzinger #1647 (Pope Pius IX "Singulari quadem", Dec. 9, 1854)
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. ...

Denzinger #1677 (Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863)
"It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church..."

These quotes can be accessed on the following site: http://catecheticsonline.com/?p=184
At least as early as the Arian heresy (300's AD), Baptism outside the Catholic Church has been recognized as valid as long as it has been done in the form of the Church --
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Cavaradossi on December 17, 2013, 07:21:20 PM
Pope Pius IX, more than 100 years before Pope Paul VI and Vatican II.

Denzinger #1647 (Pope Pius IX "Singulari quadem", Dec. 9, 1854)
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. ...

Denzinger #1677 (Pius IX encyclical, "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863)
"...It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church..."

Yes, but Anglicans are most certainly not ignorant of the Latin Church, and are most certainly obstinate toward her presumed authority and definitions. So how then can Pope Francis say that they are saved if their blood has been shed, when Pope Pius IX confirms that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the Latin church (something which certainly includes schismatics) cannot be saved, and Pope Eugene IV explicitly wrote the opposite, that those who are not in unity with the Church cannot be saved, even if they were to shed their blood for Christ?

At least as early as the Arian heresy (300's AD), Baptism outside the Catholic Church has been recognized as valid as long as it has been done in the form of the Church --

But the acceptance of heretical baptisms by some saints does not mean that they accepted the idea that heretics may be made members of the Catholic Church and thereby be saved by their heretical baptisms, as is taught in the post-Vatican II Church. St. Augustine, for example, explicitly taught the opposite, teaching in his Sermon to the People of the Caesarean Church, "Outside the Catholic Church, is is possible to have everything except salvation. It is possible to have honor, it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is posible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church." And no faithful Catholic is in fact free to contradict St. Augustine on this point, because according to Pope Benedict XIV in De Canonizatione, the doctrine of Doctors of the Church may not at all be impugned, for Doctors of the Church did not teach within the Church, but actually taught the Church herself.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 17, 2013, 07:34:18 PM
He also said Orthodox Saints are real Saints ( and Anglican). A conservative Cathloic blog I sometimes read when nuts over that.
Orthodox Saints are saints.

But can you show me where he said this about Anglican saints?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGhPtB_vCv8
Thank you sir.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on December 17, 2013, 07:36:25 PM
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for (http://ncronline.org/blogs/its-official-jesuit-faber-saint) Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.


Back to the original post: Do Atheists go to heaven.  Well, they don't.
If an Atheist has an Epiphany the very last moment of his life then there would be the chance that God could render Mercy on his or her soul, but then you would not be considered an Atheist anymore would you?  Continued antagonism and non belief will not get you into heaven.  Humankind make choices in this life, some choose to do believe in God and his Son, others choose no to believe and consider this life as their just reward.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jetavan on December 17, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for (http://ncronline.org/blogs/its-official-jesuit-faber-saint) Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.


Back to the original post: Do Atheists go to heaven.  Well, they don't. If an Atheist has an Epiphany the very last moment of his life then there would be the chance that God could render Mercy on his or her soul, but then you would not be considered an Atheist anymore would you?  Continued antagonism and non belief will not get you into heaven.
Once you're in heaven, you don't need 'belief'.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on December 17, 2013, 07:40:40 PM
Pope Francis allowed the canonization process for Oscar Romero to continue.
He could just declare him a saint, as he has done for (http://ncronline.org/blogs/its-official-jesuit-faber-saint) Fr. Faber:

Quote
Pope Francis today essentially set aside the normal process for canonizing a saint and extended sainthood to arguably his favorite Jesuit, Fr. Peter Faber, a Frenchman who was an early member of the Society of Jesus and who died in 1547.
....
Technically, what Francis has invoked with this decision is called “equivalent canonization,” a rarely-used maneuver to bypass the normal procedures and ceremonies, generally justified by the fact that the candidates comes from a remote period of time and has an uncontested reputation for holiness.


Back to the original post: Do Atheists go to heaven.  Well, they don't. If an Atheist has an Epiphany the very last moment of his life then there would be the chance that God could render Mercy on his or her soul, but then you would not be considered an Atheist anymore would you?  Continued antagonism and non belief will not get you into heaven.
Once you're in heaven, you don't need 'belief'.

But the 'trick' is getting their first......Then.......But the idea of NOT believing would be pure nonsense.  You would then know your salvation and it's rewards, so I would say any belief would be eternally reinforced each moment of this new life.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 17, 2013, 10:32:00 PM
Yes, but Anglicans are most certainly not ignorant of the Latin Church, and are most certainly obstinate toward her presumed authority and definitions. So how then can Pope Francis say that they are saved if their blood has been shed, when Pope Pius IX confirms that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the Latin church (something which certainly includes schismatics) cannot be saved, and Pope Eugene IV explicitly wrote the opposite, that those who are not in unity with the Church cannot be saved, even if they were to shed their blood for Christ?

Firstly I come from a country where there a lot of Anglicans and I have a dew Anglican friends. All of them know about Catholic Church but have no idea what the CC teaches. All they know is Catholic means Mary and the Pope. Most people are ignorant of anything else outside of what they have been brought up in. So no, Anglicans are most certainly generally ignorant of the Latin church.

Secondly Pope Francis only means what Vatican II and Pius IX taught. These  in a state of ignorance and a sincere effort to serve God have found of mercy of God and have been saved by God through the Catholic Church due to a state of communion which exists spiritually. Communion is not fixed to the visible. For many who visibly appear to be in communion are actually not in communion with his church, and Christ will reject them.

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
- Matthew 7:22-23

Popes Eugene and Francis speak one and the same message; extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Pope Pius IX explains what it means.

Quote
But the acceptance of heretical baptisms by some saints does not mean that they accepted the idea that heretics may be made members of the Catholic Church and thereby be saved by their heretical baptisms, as is taught in the post-Vatican II Church. St. Augustine, for example, explicitly taught the opposite, teaching in his Sermon to the People of the Caesarean Church, "Outside the Catholic Church, is is possible to have everything except salvation. It is possible to have honor, it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is posible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church." And no faithful Catholic is in fact free to contradict St. Augustine on this point, because according to Pope Benedict XIV in De Canonizatione, the doctrine of Doctors of the Church may not at all be impugned, for Doctors of the Church did not teach within the Church, but actually taught the Church herself.

Heretical baptisms were recognized by the Church, not just some saints. Although it must be said trinitarian heretics have an invalid baptism. The CC does not teach salvation by their baptism but the the Catholic Church.

You reference St.Augustin as if he opposed our teaching. Alas! He speaks what we speak!  it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is possible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church. This is our very position on the Orthodox Church! Again I will tell you that salvation is by the catholic Church ONLY.
God saves through his Church. So when Ahmed is born in Iran, a Muslim. And Islam is all he knows his whole life and dies living ,according to natural law ,  good life. God is just and has mercy on his souls for it is unjust to condemn a soul for a crime of ignorance. God is just and will save the soul of Ahmed as he kept natural law and as such had a spiritual communion with Gods Church as only those in the Church can be saved. And since Ahmed has been saved, there had to be a way he was in communion with the church and thus was saved through it.

If we take your view, Ahmed would go to hell for simply being ignorant. The fathers do not teach this.  
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 18, 2013, 09:55:05 PM
Yes, but Anglicans are most certainly not ignorant of the Latin Church, and are most certainly obstinate toward her presumed authority and definitions. So how then can Pope Francis say that they are saved if their blood has been shed, when Pope Pius IX confirms that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the Latin church (something which certainly includes schismatics) cannot be saved, and Pope Eugene IV explicitly wrote the opposite, that those who are not in unity with the Church cannot be saved, even if they were to shed their blood for Christ?

Firstly I come from a country where there a lot of Anglicans and I have a dew Anglican friends. All of them know about Catholic Church but have no idea what the CC teaches. All they know is Catholic means Mary and the Pope. Most people are ignorant of anything else outside of what they have been brought up in. So no, Anglicans are most certainly generally ignorant of the Latin church.

Secondly Pope Francis only means what Vatican II and Pius IX taught. These  in a state of ignorance and a sincere effort to serve God have found of mercy of God and have been saved by God through the Catholic Church due to a state of communion which exists spiritually. Communion is not fixed to the visible. For many who visibly appear to be in communion are actually not in communion with his church, and Christ will reject them.

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
- Matthew 7:22-23

Popes Eugene and Francis speak one and the same message; extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Pope Pius IX explains what it means.

Quote
But the acceptance of heretical baptisms by some saints does not mean that they accepted the idea that heretics may be made members of the Catholic Church and thereby be saved by their heretical baptisms, as is taught in the post-Vatican II Church. St. Augustine, for example, explicitly taught the opposite, teaching in his Sermon to the People of the Caesarean Church, "Outside the Catholic Church, is is possible to have everything except salvation. It is possible to have honor, it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is posible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church." And no faithful Catholic is in fact free to contradict St. Augustine on this point, because according to Pope Benedict XIV in De Canonizatione, the doctrine of Doctors of the Church may not at all be impugned, for Doctors of the Church did not teach within the Church, but actually taught the Church herself.

Heretical baptisms were recognized by the Church, not just some saints. Although it must be said trinitarian heretics have an invalid baptism. The CC does not teach salvation by their baptism but the the Catholic Church.

You reference St.Augustin as if he opposed our teaching. Alas! He speaks what we speak!  it is posible to have Sacraments, it is possible to sing Alleluia, it is possible to respond Amen, it is possible to have the Gospel, it is possible to have faith and preach in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: but never has it been possible to find salvation except in the Catholic Church. This is our very position on the Orthodox Church! Again I will tell you that salvation is by the catholic Church ONLY.
God saves through his Church. So when Ahmed is born in Iran, a Muslim. And Islam is all he knows his whole life and dies living ,according to natural law ,  good life. God is just and has mercy on his souls for it is unjust to condemn a soul for a crime of ignorance. God is just and will save the soul of Ahmed as he kept natural law and as such had a spiritual communion with Gods Church as only those in the Church can be saved. And since Ahmed has been saved, there had to be a way he was in communion with the church and thus was saved through it.

If we take your view, Ahmed would go to hell for simply being ignorant. The fathers do not teach this.  

He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 18, 2013, 11:33:56 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 18, 2013, 11:41:10 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Thank you....I get so tired of people twisting HH Francis' words he's very careful about the words he uses and he isn't making any huge innovative statements(from a Catholic perspective)...hes being pastoral not the great modernizer hes made out to be
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 18, 2013, 11:42:38 PM
Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Funny...and all this time I thought the Novus Ordo Lectionary included readings from the Old Testament.  :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 18, 2013, 11:48:51 PM
Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Funny...and all this time I thought the Novus Ordo Lectionary included readings from the Old Testament.  :P

Mor, I'm confused as to what your point is :P
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 18, 2013, 11:58:24 PM
Mor, I'm confused as to what your point is :P

The OT is full of prophets railing against the idolatries and harlotries of the Jews and calling them to repentance and the worship of the true God.  The proclamation of the gospel to the Jews in Acts and the rest of the NT is not exactly Marshmallow Fluff, either.   
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Altar Server on December 19, 2013, 12:07:14 AM
touche :)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 19, 2013, 10:30:03 AM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?

Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 19, 2013, 02:41:11 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?



Nope
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 19, 2013, 02:44:33 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 19, 2013, 03:06:09 PM
He also says that Jews don't have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?



Nope

So when the Pope prays in a Synagogue and participates in the various rituals, it's just a way to be polite without any sort of tacit endorsement.  I dunno about that :)

I was at the Enthronement of Met Jonah of the OCA. The Catholic Bishop showed up . he was given a good seat at the front but not near the altar and he could not participate in any of the rituals..
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 19, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 19, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 19, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 19, 2013, 03:20:46 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 19, 2013, 03:32:24 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 19, 2013, 04:43:46 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on December 19, 2013, 09:39:42 PM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jonathan Gress on December 19, 2013, 10:00:43 PM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

I thought the better analogy would be with the Prodigal Son: they rejected their Father, but He is there for them when they return. I think St Paul might have been trying to counter an idea that, once the Jews messed up and killed the Messiah, they wasted their shot at salvation and God now slated them for destruction, like the Amalekites. The point is that it's never too late to repent. I think St John Chrysostom made a similar point when he argued that the curse of Christ's blood that the Jews called down upon themselves isn't really an effective curse, since any Jew can repent and accept Christ.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on December 19, 2013, 10:07:28 PM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

I thought the better analogy would be with the Prodigal Son: they rejected their Father, but He is there for them when they return. I think St Paul might have been trying to counter an idea that, once the Jews messed up and killed the Messiah, they wasted their shot at salvation and God now slated them for destruction, like the Amalekites. The point is that it's never too late to repent. I think St John Chrysostom made a similar point when he argued that the curse of Christ's blood that the Jews called down upon themselves isn't really an effective curse, since any Jew can repent and accept Christ.

I don't think that anyone is questioning one's repentance , but your question is " are they still the chosen " and my answer was IOW No.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Jonathan Gress on December 19, 2013, 10:37:01 PM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

I thought the better analogy would be with the Prodigal Son: they rejected their Father, but He is there for them when they return. I think St Paul might have been trying to counter an idea that, once the Jews messed up and killed the Messiah, they wasted their shot at salvation and God now slated them for destruction, like the Amalekites. The point is that it's never too late to repent. I think St John Chrysostom made a similar point when he argued that the curse of Christ's blood that the Jews called down upon themselves isn't really an effective curse, since any Jew can repent and accept Christ.

I don't think that anyone is questioning one's repentance , but your question is " are they still the chosen " and my answer was IOW No.

Not my question and I think the answer is more subtle than you make out. I do agree that their "chosenness" does not consist in having an inalienable right to rule Palestine, which is what a lot of Christians today think it means.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 19, 2013, 11:23:21 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 20, 2013, 01:43:47 AM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 20, 2013, 01:47:05 AM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so. 

Prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son (in the sense that the father never rejected/disowned him )
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: LBK on December 20, 2013, 02:22:11 AM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so.  

Prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son (in the sense that the father never rejected/disowned him )

But the prodigal still had to repent of his errors and sins and return to his father.  ;)

I can't speak of how the RC sees this parable, but Orthodox tradition sees the father in the story as a type, an analogue, of Christ.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: FormerCalvinist on December 20, 2013, 03:57:17 AM
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 20, 2013, 11:17:41 AM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 20, 2013, 03:16:08 PM

Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

I think they relinquished this status when they rejected Christ outright and continue to do so.  

Prodigal son never stopped being the fathers son (in the sense that the father never rejected/disowned him )

But the prodigal still had to repent of his errors and sins and return to his father  ;)

I can't speak of how the RC sees this parable, but Orthodox tradition sees the father in the story as a type, an analogue, of Christ.

Indeed,so must all sinners of they are to accept what Christ offers... That ahs nothing to do with them being chosen or not so I'm missing the point you are trying to make  ???

We view the father the same way.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 20, 2013, 03:20:49 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 20, 2013, 03:21:26 PM
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: FormerCalvinist on December 20, 2013, 03:38:05 PM
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 20, 2013, 04:41:29 PM
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

From the roman hierarchy? Evidence please that any of them ever said this?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 20, 2013, 06:21:40 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   

I think we would say that the Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. Our hymography is replete with verses that say the Church
( Gentiles)  is the New Israel.

Without Baptism and a profession of faith that Jesus is the Christ they are as lost as a Buddhist, Jane or Hindu. They are not somewhat less lost or their religion is "pretty good".

 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: FormerCalvinist on December 20, 2013, 07:15:15 PM
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

From the roman hierarchy? Evidence please that any of them ever said this?

Things like this seem to pop up from time to time.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 21, 2013, 03:43:39 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   

I think we would say that the Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. Our hymography is replete with verses that say the Church
( Gentiles)  is the New Israel.

Without Baptism and a profession of faith that Jesus is the Christ they are as lost as a Buddhist, Jane or Hindu. They are not somewhat less lost or their religion is "pretty good".

 

Ans who here implied this? Please listen to what I'm saying. Choseness has nothing to do with salvation, it has everything to do with a covenant made with Jacob. Unless you imply God lied now ...
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 21, 2013, 03:51:30 PM
Whether the Jews can still be considered "chosen" in some sense or not, they are saved the same way as anyone else.

1 John 3:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ummm who here denied this?

In my experience, people trying to push the current "chosen-ness"  of the Jews are generally doing it with the implication of, "It's okay if they remain Jews, they don't need to convert and we don't need to preach to them." That seems to be the implication coming from the Roman Catholic hierarchy as well. If that's not your viewpoint, great.

From the roman hierarchy? Evidence please that any of them ever said this?

Things like this seem to pop up from time to time.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/church-should-not-pursue-conversion-jews-pope-says

Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: FormerCalvinist on December 21, 2013, 07:27:36 PM
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on December 21, 2013, 08:44:04 PM
I don't know about anyone else but Im having a time trying to obtain salvation just for myself nowadays let alone trying to convince others.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 22, 2013, 03:06:48 PM
He also says that Jews dont have to convert and have a special place and he has participated in Jewish worship services.

There are exceptions for people born ignorant. That much is pretty settled.

Here is another Youtube from that  Conservative Catholic Group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1BrvFUf3i0&list=PLD841087C099E5B90

What he actually said was :

"As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God"

Any competent reader will realize quickly that Pope Francis is not saying that Jews don't have to convert. He is saying that Judaism isn't a pagan religion which serves a false god. As such Jews are not among those that are called to turn from their false gods as they worship the true God already.

Isn't participating in Jewish Worship services a tacit approval of them as efficacious?


What do you mean by efficacious? Do you think that God ignores the prayers of all Jewish people?

I am not sure what God ignores. However, participating in Jewish rituals is giving them a certain stamp of approval. Would you go to a Jehovah's Witness Church and participate with them in what ever they do there? Mormon rituals? Would you participate?.. Maybe God hears the prayers of Mormon's. But I don't think we are supposed to mix  religions.. Just my guess.. you guys do what you want.
I suppose I don't equate Jews with Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses. Though, personally, I would only pray with some one who was a Trinitarian Christian.

Pope Francis has said the Jews are still the chosen people, with a special seal.

I have had Christians tell me that too as a way to suck up to me ( I am a Jew). I repremand them.
Doesn't St. Paul say that Jews are still the chosen people?

"there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12. Paul loved his people and prayed for them. "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:1-4.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/are-jews-gods-chosen-people

That nowhere says the Jews aren't his chosen people.

It doesnt say they are not Eskimos either
Irrelevant. If the bible has always been in the affirmative and there is nothing to prove your negative, then the argument from silence doesn't work for you

You made a specious argument. I was just making fun of it.

There is no proclamation in Scripture declaring Jews no longer God's chosen people. I'm pretty certain that is not how things work. Scripture does say that the only way to come to the Father is through Jesus Christ and if you have seen me ( Jesus) you have seen the Father. Surely you are familiar with these passages and all the others just like it.

Therefore when a people explicitly reject the Christ they have left the path to salvation. If you need to re define the term "Chosen" I suppose you can do what you want.

exactly! The bible never rescinds their choseness because they never lost it. They are Gods people until the end of the world. This does not mean they have automatic salvation. This only means God has found favor with them due to the promise/covenant (no to be mistaken with the covenant mad through the law) he made with Jacob. They still need Christ for salvation. Nobody ever denied it. However being chosen and having salvation are two mutually exclusive things.   

I think we would say that the Jews are no longer the chosen people of God. Our hymography is replete with verses that say the Church
( Gentiles)  is the New Israel.

Without Baptism and a profession of faith that Jesus is the Christ they are as lost as a Buddhist, Jane or Hindu. They are not somewhat less lost or their religion is "pretty good".

 

Ans who here implied this? Please listen to what I'm saying. Choseness has nothing to do with salvation, it has everything to do with a covenant made with Jacob. Unless you imply God lied now ...

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: biro on December 22, 2013, 03:30:30 PM
I don't know about anyone else but Im having a time trying to obtain salvation just for myself nowadays let alone trying to convince others.

Me too.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 22, 2013, 04:10:24 PM

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Marc1152 on December 22, 2013, 04:51:26 PM

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.

hmmmm..I dunno. I think it implies that Jewish Worship is beneficial. Either that or he is taking politeness too far.

What if he participated in an Islamic Service? Would that be the same, a little better or a little worse?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Papist on December 22, 2013, 05:07:53 PM

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.

hmmmm..I dunno. I think it implies that Jewish Worship is beneficial. Either that or he is taking politeness too far.

What if he participated in an Islamic Service? Would that be the same, a little better or a little worse?
Our faith came from the Jews. Islam, on the other hand, is a Perversion of the judeo-Christian tradition. That being said, I don't think it is necessarily prudent to participate in Jewish worship services.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: FormerCalvinist on December 22, 2013, 06:16:25 PM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 23, 2013, 04:48:32 AM
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just reading it as it is and Joseph Ratzinger explains my point almost exactly as I told you. You are the one spinning the quotes to slate the Church by making them say what they aren't saying.

I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 23, 2013, 10:46:38 AM
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on December 23, 2013, 11:23:00 AM
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just reading it as it is and Joseph Ratzinger explains my point almost exactly as I told you. You are the one spinning the quotes to slate the Church by making them say what they aren't saying.

I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 23, 2013, 12:40:22 PM
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.

Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_prayer_for_the_Jews), as usual, provides an alternate perspective.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: TheTrisagion on December 23, 2013, 12:42:48 PM
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.

Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_prayer_for_the_Jews), as usual, provides an alternate perspective.
Well, it was interesting to me. I've not come across an RC who is promoting pop-evangelical end times clap-trap.  Maybe they will get into the Harold Camping prophecies next.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 23, 2013, 12:48:01 PM
Well, it was interesting to me. I've not come across an RC who is promoting pop-evangelical end times clap-trap.  Maybe they will get into the Harold Camping prophecies next.  :laugh:

If Harold Camping can help protect the Pope, I'm sure we'll hear about it.  ;)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 01:21:35 AM
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 01:22:45 AM
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.

Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_prayer_for_the_Jews), as usual, provides an alternate perspective.

LOL did you even read the article?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: LBK on December 24, 2013, 01:31:19 AM
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)

But who, exactly, is Israel, Wandile? Is it not those who have accepted Christ as God, the completion and fulfillment of the old Law?
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 24, 2013, 01:32:54 AM
Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_prayer_for_the_Jews), as usual, provides an alternate perspective.

LOL did you even read the article?

I did.  Did you? 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 01:33:49 AM
St. Augustine:

 
City of God XX.29:

 Chapter 29.-Of the Coming of Elias Before the Judgment, that the Jews May Be Converted to Christ by His Preaching and Explanation of Scripture.

 After admonishing them to give heed to the law of Moses, as he foresaw that for a long time to come they would not understand it spiritually and rightly, he went on to say, "And, behold, I will send to you Elias the Tishbite before the great and signal day of the Lord come: and he shall turn the heart of the father to the son, and the heart of a man to his next of kin, lest I come and utterly smite the earth." It is a familiar theme in the conversation and heart of the faithful, that in the last days before the judgment the Jews shall believe in the true Christ, that is, our Christ, by means of this great and admirable prophet Elias who shall expound the law to them. For not without reason do we hope that before the coming of our Judge and Saviour Elias shall come, because we have good reason to believe that he is now alive; for, as Scripture most distinctly informs us, he was taken up from this life in a chariot of fire. When, therefore, he is come, he shall give a spiritual explanation of the law which the Jews at present understand carnally, and shall thus "turn the heart of the father to the son," that is, the heart of fathers to their children; for the Septuagint translators have frequently put the singular for the plural number. And the meaning is, that the sons, that is, the Jews, shall understand the law as the fathers, that is, the prophets, and among them Moses himself, understood it. For the heart of the fathers shall be turned to their children when the children understand the law as their fathers did; and the heart of the children shall be turned to their fathers when they have the same sentiments as the fathers. The Septuagint used the expression, "and the heart of a man to his next of kin," because fathers and children are eminently neighbors to one another. Another and a preferable sense can be found in the words of the Septuagint translators, who have translated Scripture with an eye to prophecy, the sense, viz., that Elias shall turn the heart of God the Father to the Son, not certainly as if he should bring about this love of the Father for the Son, but meaning that he should make it known, and that the Jews also, who had previously hated, should then love the Son who is our Christ. For so far as regards the Jews, God has His heart turned away from our Christ, this being their conception about God and Christ. But in their case the heart of God shall be turned to the Son when they themselves shall turn in heart, and learn the love of the Father towards the Son. "

St. Jerome,  Comm. to the Song of Songs, Homily 1:

"Their sins occasioned the salvation of the Gentiles and again the incredulity of the Gentiles will occasion the conversion of Israel. You will find both in the Apostle (St. Paul)."

After the loss of Job's possessions, after all his bereavements, after all the suffering of his wounds, after all his angry debates, it is good that he is consoled by twofold repayment. In just this way does the holy church, while it is still in this world, receive twofold reward for the trials it sustains, when all the gentile nations have been brought into its midst, at the end of time, and the church converts even the hearts of the Jews to its cause.  Thus it is written, 'Until the fulness of nations enters and so all Israel is saved.'"

Theodoret

"Paul insists that only a part of Israel has been hardened, for many of them believe.  He thus encourages them not to despair that others will be saved as well.  After the Gentiles accepted the gospel, the Jews would believe, when the great Elijah would come to them and bring them the doctrine of the faith.  The Lord himself said as much: 'Elijah will come and will restore all things.'"

The Venerable Bede:


in his Explanation of the Apocalypse, "it is well believed that the wicked Jews will be deceived as well as deceive, but that others will understand the law spiritually through the instruction of the great prophet Elijah, and will be incorporated among the members of the Church, and bravely overcome the enemy."  

 In a letter to his Abbot Eusebius about his Explanatio:"He has foretold that the Jews are to be made subject to the Church, and that there is to be a trial of the world at large, and that He Himself will come quickly."


 The 10th century French Abbot Adso:


"Lest the Antichrist come suddenly and without warning and deceive and destroy the whole human race by his error, before his arrival the two great prophets Enoch and Elijah will be sent into the world. They will defend God's faithful against the attack of the Antichrist with divine arms and will instruct, comfort, and prepare the elect for battle with three and a half years teaching and preaching. These two very great prophets and teachers will convert the sons of Israel who will live in that time to the faith, and they will make their belief unconquerable among the elect in the face of the affliction of so great a storm. At that time what scripture says will be fulfilled 'If the number of sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, their remnant will be saved'."


St. Thomas Aquinas in Commentary on Epistle to the Romans:


"The blindness of the Jews will endure until the fullness of the gentiles have accepted the faith.  And this is in accord with what the Apostle says below about the salvation of the Jews, namely, that after the fullness of the nations have entered, 'all Israel will be saved', not individually as at present, but universally." ...
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 01:35:07 AM
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)

But who, exactly, is Israel, Wandile? Is it not those who have accepted Christ as God, the completion and fulfillment of the old Law?

The Jews for Paul was speaking of those that reject Christ. Read the fathers on conversion of the Jews and this passage
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 01:37:23 AM
Not interesting, just a matter of protecting the Pope at any cost.  Liturgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_prayer_for_the_Jews), as usual, provides an alternate perspective.

LOL did you even read the article?

I did.  Did you?  

Then you will see that what I say is what he says and what the fathers say. There will be a wholesale conversion of the Jews at one time. But first the amount of gentiles moat be filled.  
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 01:49:29 AM
Ignoring the fact that this book is a private work of a theologian that has no bearing on the official teaching of the Church... What he says is not false at all. He merely goes with what scripture says :

"ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED"
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Joseph Ratzinger is simply saying that the conversion of the Jews will happen when it happens (Revelations tells us this will happens when the two witnesses arrive) and not to try rush the process.

Don't try to spin it now. Should we try to convert Jews or not? Do the Jews of today need to convert to Christianity? Do you agree with this quote from the article: “The church must not concern herself with the conversion of the Jews, since she must wait for the time fixed for this by God.” ?

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just reading it as it is and Joseph Ratzinger explains my point almost exactly as I told you. You are the one spinning the quotes to slate the Church by making them say what they aren't saying.

I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion
A Roman Catholic with the eschatology of the Left Behind books.  Interesting.
The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia (article on the "General Judgment"):

"Conversion of the Jews: According to the interpretation of the Fathers, the conversion of the Jews towards the end of the world is foretold by St. Paul in the Epistle to the Romans (11:25-26): 'For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, . . . that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.'"

The 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia:

" Universal and Cosmic Eschatology.- 6) Notwhithstanding Christ's express refusal to specify the time of the end (Mrak xiii, 32, Acts i, 6 sq) it was a common belief among early Christians that the end of the world was near. This seemed to have some support in certain sayings of Christ in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which are set down in the Gospels side by side with the prophecies relating to the end (Matt 24, Luke 21), and in certain passages of the Apostolic writings, which might, not unnaturally, have been so understood (but see II Thes, ii, s2 sqq) where St. Paul corrects this impression.) On the other hand, Christ had clearly stated that the Gospel was to be preached to all the nations before the end (Matt 24:14) and St. Paul looked forward to the ultimate conversion of the Jewish people as a remote event to be preceded by the conversion of the Gentiles (Rom xi, 25 sqq). "
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 24, 2013, 02:06:26 AM
I agree with the quote as it is taught in scripture and tradition. Have you read the prophetic writings of the fathers? Its not to say that no Jew today must be converted but rather that all will be converted at a specific time as scripture and tradition recounts. So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion

LOL, no.

Scripture disagrees with you
"all Israel will be saved "
 (ROMANS 11:26)

Again, "LOL, no."

Your opinion above depends on two extremes.  The first is that the Pope is never wrong, which is why you have to resort to all these mental gymnastics to reconcile conflicts which arise when reviewing the historical record.  Let us pass over that, since the Pope is adequately addressed elsewhere.  

The second is this: "So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion".  Who is advocating a "mass evangelisation campaign" specifically aimed at Jews?  The "campaign" is nothing less than the same campaign advocated by Scripture:

Quote
Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And preach as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay. 9 Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts, 10 no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food. 11 And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it, and stay with him until you depart. 12 As you enter the house, salute it. 13 And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor′rah than for that town.

Matthew 28

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Mark 16

14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Luke 24

44 Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”

Acts 1

1 In the first book, O The-oph′ilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God. 4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me, 5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samar′ia and to the end of the earth.” 9 And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 2

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you[/b] in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Acts 3

17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came afterwards, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God gave to your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your posterity shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Acts 4

5 On the morrow their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem, 6 with Annas the high priest and Ca′iaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a cripple, by what means this man has been healed, 10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. 11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 1

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “He who through faith is righteous shall live.”

And others...

But your pseudo-theology would have us believe that the apostles were, to a man, stupid for preaching to the Jews instead of waiting for the end and letting them continue in Judaism.  Even the risen Christ seems to be off his game, commanding things that can wait until the end.  What do they know more than the Pope in Rome?  
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 24, 2013, 02:08:20 AM
Then you will see that what I say is what he says and what the fathers say. There will be a wholesale conversion of the Jews at one time. But first the amount of gentiles moat be filled.  

Read the quotes from the Good Friday intercessions, Wandile.  That was my main reason for linking the article.  Those are among the oldest prayers in the Roman Liturgy, and they don't agree with your interpretation above until after World War II when the Popes started tinkering with them. 
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 03:24:57 AM
Your opinion above depends on two extremes.  The first is that the Pope is never wrong, which is why you have to resort to all these mental gymnastics to reconcile conflicts which arise when reviewing the historical record.  Let us pass over that, since the Pope is adequately addressed elsewhere.

uhhh...no. Joseph Ratzinger isnt even writing as Pope in this book (nevrmind that its not even an ex cathedra pronouncement), or did you just conveniently glance overe that part in the article so that you could make this absolutely baseless and ,quite frankly, stupid claim?  ::)
This assertion is so ridiculous that it doesnt even warrant any attention.

Quote
The second is this: "So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion".  Who is advocating a "mass evangelisation campaign" specifically aimed at Jews?  The "campaign" is nothing less than the same campaign advocated by Scripture

this assertion is true and your scriptural passages do nohing to harm the truth of this claim. the quotes you provide, in their proper, context do not even come close to what you want them to say.

Like in Matthew 14 , any well versed christian would notice that the command to preach to the jews was way before the command to preach to the gentiles/all nations so this quote has no bearing here.Where as matthew 28 and Luke 16 only show the commisioning of the apostles to go spread the gospel message to the gentiles. again my view is not opposed to scripture as the message of christ is to be borne witness to in all the world and in israel. As acts says. This is done in simply living the christian life without any proselytization or aggressive evangilization. The latter is what is being discussed here as a mass evengelization campaign aimed at the conversion of israel will be a complete failiure as there is a specific time set out for the conversion of Israel when St. Paul  in  Letter to the Romans says:

 “A hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved” (11:25–26).

And So too Pope Benedict , in  the book, is contemplating the two-stages of phases of history that precede the end of the world. First, there are what Our Lord refers to as “the times of the gentiles,” in which the Gospel is preached to all nations and the gentiles are given the chance to convert, and then the second stage in which the partial hardness that has come upon Israel is removed and so “all Israel will be saved”—a reference to a corporate conversion of the Jewish people at the end of history.

Note how this viewpoint differs from two rival viewpoints: First, it differs from the “Jews don’t need Jesus, they have their own covenant” perspective. This idea, which has been trendy is some Christian circles of late, is contrary to the teaching of the New Testament and to the historic teaching of the Church’s Magisterium. It also is not what Pope Benedict is advocating here. He is not saying that Jews don’t need Jesus or that they don’t need to become Christians. He is saying that they will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world.

Secondly, the viewpoint that the Pope is articulating is different than the “Jews don’t matter anymore; they don’t have any special relationship with God or mission; their role has been completely supplanted by the Church and they have no further special significance.” Again, this position is contrary to the New Testament, which ascribes an ongoing special place for the Jewish people in God’s plan (as illustrated by the end of the world being contingent on their corporate conversion), and it is not the viewpoint that Pope Benedict is articulating. He recognizes, as we will see him say even more explicitly in a moment, that the Jewish people has a special and ongoing mission.

Quote
But your pseudo-theology would have us believe that the apostles were, to a man, stupid for preaching to the Jews instead of waiting for the end and letting them continue in Judaism.  Even the risen Christ seems to be off his game, commanding things that can wait until the end.  What do they know more than the Pope in Rome?  

You're getting desperate now Mor. as I have said the jews will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world. As such it is unneccesary to have a mass evangelization campaign aimed at the conversion of Israel when there has already been set out, by God, a specific time for the conversion of israel.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Wandile on December 24, 2013, 03:44:12 AM
Then you will see that what I say is what he says and what the fathers say. There will be a wholesale conversion of the Jews at one time. But first the amount of gentiles moat be filled.  

Read the quotes from the Good Friday intercessions, Wandile.  That was my main reason for linking the article.  Those are among the oldest prayers in the Roman Liturgy, and they don't agree with your interpretation above until after World War II when the Popes started tinkering with them.  

I know those quotes Mor. and no they agree perfectly.

Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

As Joseph ratzinger went on to say in the article, its fine to pray for this as this is a prayer aimed at the fulfillmet of St.Pauls words and those of the fathers. You are trying to find contradiction where none exists. i already showed you the fathers taught too that conversion of the gentiles must precede that of the jews.  here are some more fathers who attest to this :

St. John Damascene:

De Fide Orthodoxa (IV, 26, "Concerning the Antichrist"):

It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist. First, then, it is requisite that the Gospel should be preached among all nations, as the Lord said, and then he will come to refute the impious Jews…But Enoch and Elias the Thesbite shall be sent and shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, that is, the synagogue to our Lord Jesus Christ and the preaching of the apostles

Pope St. Gregory the Great:

Moralia in Iob (Preface, X, 20):

"After the loss of Job's possessions, after all his bereavements, after all the suffering of his wounds, after all his angry debates, it is good that he is consoled by twofold repayment. In just this way does the holy church, while it is still in this world, receive twofold reward for the trials it sustains, when all the gentile nations have been brought into its midst, at the end of time, and the church converts even the hearts of the Jews to its cause.  Thus it is written, 'Until the fulness of nations enters and so all Israel is saved.'"
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 24, 2013, 04:02:25 AM
The second is this: "So it is not necessary to have a mass evangelization campaign for them when they have a specific time for their conversion".  Who is advocating a "mass evangelisation campaign" specifically aimed at Jews?  The "campaign" is nothing less than the same campaign advocated by Scripture

this assertion is true and your scriptural passages do nohing to harm the truth of this claim. the quotes you provide, in their proper, context do not even come close to what you want them to say.

What do I want them to say?

Quote
Like in Matthew 14 , any well versed christian would notice that the command to preavh to the jewws was way before the command to preach to the gentiles/all nations so this quote has no bearing here.

St Paul specifically says in his letter to the Romans that the gospel is for the Jews first and then for the Gentiles.  And scholars believe Romans was written before Matthew's Gospel.  It's not unlikely that the Gospel narrative is composed to convey this truth, not simply as the newspaper account of the life of Christ you seem to take it to be.  

Quote
Where as matthew 28 and |Luke 16 only show the commisioning of the apostles to go spread the gospel message to the gentiles. again my vie is not aooposed to scripture as the bmessage of christ is to be born witness to in all the world and in israel. as acts says. This is done in simply living the christian life without any proselytization or aggressive evangilization.

There is a difference between how one personally "evangelises" and how the Church as a body does this work.  Not every person will be called to emulate the apostles in traveling throughout the world preaching and baptising.  For some, "simply living the Christian life" is the only evangelising God calls them to do.  But the Church as a body cannot be content simply to pray, pay, and obey, as if that was enough.  That's just not Scriptural.  

Quote
The latter is what is being disvussed here as a mass evengelization campaign aimed at the conversion of israel will be a complete failiure as there is a specific time set out for the conversion of Israel when St. Paul  in  Letter to the Romans says:

 “A hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved” (11:25–26).

What is a "mass evangelisation campaign"?  

Quote
You're getting desperate now Mor. as I have said the jews will corporately convert to Christ, but not until the end of time. Prior to that point, individual Jews may become Christians—as with the apostles and the very first Christians and with other converts from Judaism down through history. But the full, corporate conversion of Israel (which even then might not involve every single individual without exception) is something to be found only at the end of the world. As such it is unneccesary to have a mass evangelization campaign aimed at the conversion of Israel when there has already been set out, by God, a specific time for the conversion of israel.

See above.  

I'm not arguing that we need to break out the hoses, round up all the Jews, and baptise them en masse.  But the above is weak.  "Individual Jews may become Christians---as with the apostles and the very first Christians"?  That didn't happen because they saw some quiet people who minded their own business and thought it'd be cool to join them: the NT is full of active evangelisation of Jews.  You make it sound as if it's optional, that if they want to convert, we won't stop them, but if they don't want to convert, that's OK too.  Well, from a human rights perspective, yes, it's their choice and they're free.  But from the perspective of the gospel, no, not at all.  

What God will accomplish at the end of time for the Jewish people in his mercy and by his dispensation does not justify their remaining as they are here and now.  That's a presumption on the mercy of God.  It's like if I continue in my sins because God is merciful and "desires all men to be saved", so surely he'll find a way for me before the end if he really loves me.  That's ludicrous.  Let God do what he will for the Jews in the end, but until then we have to obey his command to preach the gospel to "all nations", to "all creation", and unless the Jews are not "a nation" or "created", that includes them.  And they have an obligation to respond.    
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: Mor Ephrem on December 24, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
i already showed you the fathers taught too that conversion of the gentiles must precede that of the jews.  

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation, and I'm not sure the holy fathers would.  Certainly, I read your quotes to mean something other than what you argue. 

The faithlessness of the Jews, according to St Paul, is what has allowed the gospel to be preached to the Gentiles.  God doesn't positively will that faithlessness, as if he wants them to reject him on purpose, anymore than Christ positively willed Judas to betray him.  In both cases, it is something he knew would happen and which blazed a path toward something greater, but he still said about Judas that it would've been better for him if he were never born, and the rejection of the Messiah was the cause for the Jews' loss of the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom (which all passed on to the Church as an inheritance, because the Church is the true Israel of God).   

The gospel is first for the Jews and then for the Gentiles: God takes advantage of the Jewish rejection of Christ in order to announce the gospel to the nations and allow them the opportunity to respond.  Their sin is an opportunity for us to be shown mercy, not a necessary condition (or else it wouldn't be sin).  In his faithfulness to promises he made to those who never rejected him--Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc.--God will give unfaithful Israel another chance, but this doesn't mean that he intends them to be unfaithful today, that he wills them to reject him here and now, or any such thing.

You appear to be arguing that if Jews want to convert, that's fine, but the Church can just as easily ignore the Jews and let them do what they're doing because God will deal with them later.  Well, God will deal with everyone later...so what?   
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: JoeS2 on December 24, 2013, 06:54:32 PM

Participating in Jewish Worship Services implies that.
You are stretching. The only thing that participation in a Jewish worship service implies is that Christians and Jews worship the same God, and that God is capable of hearing the prayers of both.

Perhaps such participation is not the most prudent of things, but it implies nothing whatsoever about the salvation of either group.

Why would one want to participate in a Jewish Worship Service is beyond me.
Title: Re: Pope Francis says atheists are going to heaven
Post by: stanley123 on April 09, 2014, 01:32:35 PM
I must say, I have to pick my chin off the floor after reading this. 

Is it just me or is it sounding like Pope Francis is a universalist?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html
Several recent remarks of Pope Francis have caused conservative Catholics to have raised eyebrows.