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Moderated Forums => Free-For-All => Non-Religious Topics => Topic started by: Ashman618 on May 16, 2013, 11:52:28 AM

Title: Cloning humans
Post by: Ashman618 on May 16, 2013, 11:52:28 AM
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/05/15/183916891/scientists-clone-human-embryos-to-make-stem-cells
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: mike on May 16, 2013, 12:20:17 PM
When linking news articles/stories, please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: J Michael on May 16, 2013, 12:38:02 PM
It's a brave (??) new world.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: LizaSymonenko on May 16, 2013, 12:38:59 PM

It's a scary new world.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Ashman618 on May 16, 2013, 12:47:21 PM
When linking news articles/stories, please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.

Sorry how do I correct this now?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: mike on May 16, 2013, 12:54:26 PM
When linking news articles/stories, please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.

Sorry how do I correct this now?

You can't. Don't do it again.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 16, 2013, 02:09:18 PM
I am facinated by the story, but wow, does that raise some crazy ethical and moral concerns!  :o
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: JamesR on May 16, 2013, 10:27:45 PM
Could I clone myself the perfect woman?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Ashman618 on May 16, 2013, 10:35:42 PM
Could I clone myself the perfect woman?

You could clone yourself and then inhibit the chemical sequences which cause you to be male; as too make a woman clone of your self!

That might be your perfect match??
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Maria on May 16, 2013, 10:41:04 PM
Could I clone myself the perfect woman?

You could clone yourself and then inhibit the chemical sequences which cause you to be male; as too make a woman clone of your self!

That might be your perfect match??

Doubtful. Opposites attract.
I am glad that I did not marry myself.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 17, 2013, 07:57:09 AM
Could I clone myself the perfect woman?

You could clone yourself and then inhibit the chemical sequences which cause you to be male; as too make a woman clone of your self!

That might be your perfect match??

Doubtful. Opposites attract.
I am glad that I did not marry myself.

QFT!!!
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Remora on May 17, 2013, 08:17:42 AM


You could clone yourself and then inhibit the chemical sequences which cause you to be male; as too make a woman clone of your self!

That might be your perfect match??
If it wasn't also incestuous, like matching up with your twin... good gosh nooo

See, this is why we can't be entrusted with cloning. xD
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: yeshuaisiam on May 18, 2013, 10:03:30 PM
I think God is going to return soon.  This world is too far fallen.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Dpaula on May 18, 2013, 10:51:50 PM

I am glad that I did not marry myself.

Hm. What an interesting thought!

I don't think I'd like "me" very much either.

Does that mean I should change?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Gunnarr on May 19, 2013, 02:10:28 AM
I think God is going to return soon.  This world is too far fallen.

I dont know if he will but I hope he does soon... well not too soon I have not confessed

Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 19, 2013, 02:22:32 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 19, 2013, 02:27:31 AM
I am facinated by the story, but wow, does that raise some crazy ethical and moral concerns!  :o

It sure does, but few care about ethics and morals anymore.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 19, 2013, 02:28:58 AM
It's a brave (??) new world.


It's a scary new world.

It's an evil sinful world with blurred vision.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: NicholasMyra on May 19, 2013, 03:03:06 AM
Making twins the old fashioned way is much more fun.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: J Michael on May 19, 2013, 02:52:59 PM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 19, 2013, 10:17:24 PM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
It never has in the past. 
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: J Michael on May 20, 2013, 08:33:38 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
It never has in the past. 

Precisely.  I wonder what sanctions/punishments accompany that ban for those who violate it and get caught?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 20, 2013, 08:35:47 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
It never has in the past. 

Precisely.  I wonder what sanctions/punishments accompany that ban for those who violate it and get caught?

Very good question.  I have no idea.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on May 20, 2013, 12:49:22 PM
Making twins the old fashioned way is much more fun.

 ;D
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: yeshuaisiam on May 20, 2013, 01:17:11 PM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 

Well, supposedly they did find Nimrod's tomb.  U.S. military surrounded it as well as Israel secret service.... (google for sources as there are many).
 ??? ??? ???

Some say the cloned Nimrod will be the antichrist.... Love stuff like this.   It's fun, has a point, is vexing, is outrage!, and great all at the same time.

If you want to visit some fun stuff, google about this topic.  ;D
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 20, 2013, 01:26:20 PM
They already did clone Nimrod.  He was a US president.  ;D

(I'll leave it to someone else to conjecture who that is)
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 21, 2013, 10:31:30 PM
If this can cure cancer and other degenerative diseases, I am all for it.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 21, 2013, 10:34:37 PM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 22, 2013, 01:14:11 AM
If this can cure cancer and other degenerative diseases, I am all for it.
If killing ten thousand people saves millions of people, but the ten thousand must suffer a horrible death, would you still be for it?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 22, 2013, 01:17:04 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent?  
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.

Calling someone self-righteous whenever a person feels uncomfortable with what is said is like calling everyone who disagrees with homosexual activities a homophobe.  Its insinuation is lost after about the third time it’s done.  Nothing either of us said was self-righteous and to make the claim is impulsive.  Do you call your priest self-righteous when he says sin is wrong?  Didn’t think so.

Oh, and your shot at the wrong target.  I said it and he repeated what I said. 
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 10:00:46 AM
If this can cure cancer and other degenerative diseases, I am all for it.
If killing ten thousand people saves millions of people, but the ten thousand must suffer a horrible death, would you still be for it?
Where is this suffering from a horrible death?

Don't slip to hard on that slope
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 10:02:24 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent?  
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.

Calling someone self-righteous whenever a person feels uncomfortable with what is said is like calling everyone who disagrees with homosexual activities a homophobe.  Its insinuation is lost after about the third time it’s done.  Nothing either of us said was self-righteous and to make the claim is impulsive.  Do you call your priest self-righteous when he says sin is wrong?  Didn’t think so.

Oh, and your shot at the wrong target.  I said it and he repeated what I said. 
I forgot your inability to understand what you are reading.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 22, 2013, 10:12:18 AM
If this can cure cancer and other degenerative diseases, I am all for it.
If killing ten thousand people saves millions of people, but the ten thousand must suffer a horrible death, would you still be for it?
Where is this suffering from a horrible death?

Don't slip to hard on that slope

Refusal to answer?  I am shocked. ::)
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 22, 2013, 10:13:55 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent?  
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.

Calling someone self-righteous whenever a person feels uncomfortable with what is said is like calling everyone who disagrees with homosexual activities a homophobe.  Its insinuation is lost after about the third time it’s done.  Nothing either of us said was self-righteous and to make the claim is impulsive.  Do you call your priest self-righteous when he says sin is wrong?  Didn’t think so.

Oh, and your shot at the wrong target.  I said it and he repeated what I said. 
I forgot your inability to understand what you are reading.

I understood what you wrote.  If not, you should have no problem explaining.  Perhaps you meant something different.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 10:15:35 AM
If this can cure cancer and other degenerative diseases, I am all for it.
If killing ten thousand people saves millions of people, but the ten thousand must suffer a horrible death, would you still be for it?
Where is this suffering from a horrible death?

Don't slip to hard on that slope

Refusal to answer?  I am shocked. ::)
And I take issue with how your question was worded, so you need to answer mine first.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 10:16:46 AM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent?  
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.

Calling someone self-righteous whenever a person feels uncomfortable with what is said is like calling everyone who disagrees with homosexual activities a homophobe.  Its insinuation is lost after about the third time it’s done.  Nothing either of us said was self-righteous and to make the claim is impulsive.  Do you call your priest self-righteous when he says sin is wrong?  Didn’t think so.

Oh, and your shot at the wrong target.  I said it and he repeated what I said. 
I forgot your inability to understand what you are reading.

I understood what you wrote.  If not, you should have no problem explaining.  Perhaps you meant something different.
You still missed "the target". I'll wait till you have read it.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 22, 2013, 10:19:56 AM
So...this is fun.  :P
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: J Michael on May 22, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.

So, let's see.....I'm trying to understand your point here.  You highlighted the first clause of the sentence I repeated from Kerdy's post, and then wrote, "We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness."  Were your words a reference to me and you are saying that I don't care about morals and ethics anymore?  Or were they a reference to Kerdy and saying that he doesn't care about morals and ethics anymore?  If either of those is the case, that seems like a) an ad hominem attack, AND b) Achronos talking out his ass again, trying to be clever and it ain't working.  You see, you have no basis whatsoever to make that kind of statement about either of us, thus making the statement a lie.  Yes, I wrote "lie".  You are lying either about me or about Kerdy or about both of us---if your statement is to be understood as I believe you meant it.  But, hopefully I'm wrong and you didn't mean it that way.

So...that's the first possibility.

Another is (you see, I'm trying to give you an "out" here--if there is one, that is)....well, how else would one understand your post?  Ok, got it--you're saying that I or Kerdy don't have "...the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent" to clone humans.  Well, that's true.  But why even make such a statement?  I'm pretty sure Kerdy wouldn't even consider it and I know I wouldn't consider it.  So, what's IS your point?
 
Or...are you just having a bad day and the venom spews all by itself from your brain through your fingers onto the keyboard?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 22, 2013, 06:15:52 PM
If this can cure cancer and other degenerative diseases, I am all for it.
If killing ten thousand people saves millions of people, but the ten thousand must suffer a horrible death, would you still be for it?
Where is this suffering from a horrible death?

Don't slip to hard on that slope

Refusal to answer?  I am shocked. ::)
And I take issue with how your question was worded, so you need to answer mine first.
No
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 06:44:35 PM
My understanding is cloning humans has already been banned.

Given that few care about morals and ethics anymore; given that it's an evil sinful world with blurred vision; is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness.

So, let's see.....I'm trying to understand your point here.  You highlighted the first clause of the sentence I repeated from Kerdy's post, and then wrote, "We already know you don't, so knock it off with the self-righteousness."  Were your words a reference to me and you are saying that I don't care about morals and ethics anymore?  Or were they a reference to Kerdy and saying that he doesn't care about morals and ethics anymore?  If either of those is the case, that seems like a) an ad hominem attack, AND b) Achronos talking out his ass again, trying to be clever and it ain't working.  You see, you have no basis whatsoever to make that kind of statement about either of us, thus making the statement a lie.  Yes, I wrote "lie".  You are lying either about me or about Kerdy or about both of us---if your statement is to be understood as I believe you meant it.  But, hopefully I'm wrong and you didn't mean it that way.

So...that's the first possibility.

Another is (you see, I'm trying to give you an "out" here--if there is one, that is)....well, how else would one understand your post?  Ok, got it--you're saying that I or Kerdy don't have "...the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent" to clone humans.  Well, that's true.  But why even make such a statement?  I'm pretty sure Kerdy wouldn't even consider it and I know I wouldn't consider it.  So, what's IS your point?
 
Or...are you just having a bad day and the venom spews all by itself from your brain through your fingers onto the keyboard?
Considering your politics, you don't care about morals or ethics, let alone being a decent human being. On my scale of human goodness, you rank horrible, but not yet at Isa's terrible level.

Then you say few people care about such things which makes you self-righteous.

Many of us actually do care about the wellbeing of our fellow man.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 06:48:17 PM
Quote
is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
Sounds like a good starting point on what should be classified as immoral.

Let's try corporations that do all of the above.

Sinful? Absolutely. In fact the very beginnings of commerce is sinful in itself.

But you remain mute when it doesn't involve the destruction of a fetus.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: TheTrisagion on May 22, 2013, 07:05:57 PM
Quote
Considering your politics, you don't care about morals or ethics, let alone being a decent human being. On my scale of human goodness, you rank horrible


 :o Well THAT escalated quickly...
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Shiny on May 22, 2013, 07:24:56 PM
Quote
Considering your politics, you don't care about morals or ethics, let alone being a decent human being. On my scale of human goodness, you rank horrible


 :o Well THAT escalated quickly...

Oh let me be jocular please.

I just want J Michael to get angry at other things.

In all honesty his politics shows him in a very negative light...
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Papist on May 23, 2013, 12:52:26 AM
Quote
Considering your politics, you don't care about morals or ethics, let alone being a decent human being. On my scale of human goodness, you rank horrible


 :o Well THAT escalated quickly...

Oh let me be jocular please.

I just want J Michael to get angry at other things.

In all honesty his politics shows him in a very negative light...
Because everyone who disagrees with you is a bad person, right?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Kerdy on May 23, 2013, 04:35:39 AM
Quote
Considering your politics, you don't care about morals or ethics, let alone being a decent human being. On my scale of human goodness, you rank horrible


 :o Well THAT escalated quickly...

Oh let me be jocular please.

I just want J Michael to get angry at other things.

In all honesty his politics shows him in a very negative light...
Because everyone who disagrees with you is a bad person, right?

Bingo! 
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: J Michael on May 23, 2013, 10:10:43 AM
Quote
is that ban going to stop someone with the knowledge, skill, money, determination, and intent? 
Sounds like a good starting point on what should be classified as immoral.

Let's try corporations that do all of the above.

Sinful? Absolutely. In fact the very beginnings of commerce is sinful in itself.

But you remain mute when it doesn't involve the destruction of a fetus.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.  Again.  And I do not need to justify myself to the likes of you.

Do you ever buy anything?  (Ever by anything from ANY of those horrible corporations you criticize?) Then you're engaging in "sinful" commerce.  Have you ever sold anything?  Ditto.  Splinter, plank.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 16, 2014, 01:05:08 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on February 16, 2014, 01:19:50 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 16, 2014, 01:21:38 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on February 16, 2014, 01:22:26 PM
Hmmm. Interesting.  :)
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Gkterra on February 16, 2014, 01:26:18 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 16, 2014, 01:46:56 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Gkterra on February 16, 2014, 02:06:40 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 16, 2014, 02:09:20 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Gkterra on February 16, 2014, 02:20:11 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

so then you're saying, any life created in sin, has no virtue, and is therefore unworthy of a soul?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 16, 2014, 02:24:24 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

so then you're saying, any life created in sin, has no virtue, and is therefore unworthy of a soul?

No, I am saying that it is one thing to create a new person and another to replicate the same individual that has already existed. I will ask: is there any limit to what we can ever do? If there is, then I believe this may be such a case.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on February 16, 2014, 02:25:49 PM
There may be limits to what people can do, but there is no limit to what Almighty God can do. I see no reason why He could not give a unique soul to a clone, if He can give a soul to anyone else.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Gkterra on February 16, 2014, 02:31:31 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

And a clone is just the same, it's your life experience that makes you who you are, not your physical makeup,  and I highly doubt man can clone the soul or spirit.

No, he cannot clone the spirit and soul, but then what soul and spirit will inhabit the clone of someone (the exact physical replica of himself which is his alone since man has a unique and non-repeatable body and soul). That is why I say that it's as if you are asking that person's soul to come back into the world because no other soul can inhabit the exact same body.

what makes you think God can't, or won't, compensate for this? 

It would seem that He would have to go against His principles, not that He couldn't. He could call sin virtue, but He doesn't.

so then you're saying, any life created in sin, has no virtue, and is therefore unworthy of a soul?

No, I am saying that it is one thing to create a new person and another to replicate the same individual that has already existed. I will ask: is there any limit to what we can ever do? If there is, then I believe this may be such a case.

but the clone hasn't existed before, and it can't be an exact copy, as it will be made of entirely different atoms. same dna yes, same person, no
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on February 16, 2014, 02:40:10 PM
Is DNA the same thing as the soul? No. It's part of the physical aspect of the body, but I've never heard it equated with the soul. Just because a body has new DNA does not mean that is a new soul. Or, that God can't put in a new soul if He wants.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Gkterra on February 16, 2014, 03:08:45 PM
Is DNA the same thing as the soul? No. It's part of the physical aspect of the body, but I've never heard it equated with the soul. Just because a body has new DNA does not mean that is a new soul. Or, that God can't put in a new soul if He wants.

nowhere has dna been equated with the Soul, I'm saying, all life is precious, regardless of the circumstances surrounding it's creation.
if we can do it, I'm sure God knows that, whether it's right or wrong is mute, since that's never stopped humanity before. 
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Opus118 on February 16, 2014, 03:28:59 PM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Hi IoanC,

Monozygotic twins have the same DNA (same as would occur if cloning were perfect without the intervening DNA damage that occurs with age/viral infections).

No twins are, and no clones would, be identical due to epigenetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 17, 2014, 01:29:17 AM
There may be limits to what people can do, but there is no limit to what Almighty God can do. I see no reason why He could not give a unique soul to a clone, if He can give a soul to anyone else.

I am not saying that He couldn't, but will He find the right reason to do it? I used an analogy for reference: why not wait for God to turn sin into virtue? Are we saying that He can't?
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 17, 2014, 01:31:39 AM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Hi IoanC,

Monozygotic twins have the same DNA (same as would occur if cloning were perfect without the intervening DNA damage that occurs with age/viral infections).

No twins are, and no clones would, be identical due to epigenetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember.

As I said previously, I am don't know very much about clones. But the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov because it is taking humanity into directions that are monstrous.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Laird on February 17, 2014, 03:01:22 AM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Twins are still persons with different identities who happen to have similar bodies. Clones represent the same identity just "brought back" into existence.

Hi IoanC,

Monozygotic twins have the same DNA (same as would occur if cloning were perfect without the intervening DNA damage that occurs with age/viral infections).

No twins are, and no clones would, be identical due to epigenetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember.

As I said previously, I am don't know very much about clones. But the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov because it is taking humanity into directions that are monstrous.

I agree. Humanity is prying into things they shouldn't be...
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Ebor on February 17, 2014, 10:10:44 AM
I am reviving this topic because I don't know where else to post my thoughts. I don't know very much about cloning, but it seems to me that it borders on reproducing the same person or very close. That's a huge ethical and philosophical problem because we humans are body and soul with a unique configuration, and to clone someone is to sort of call back that person's soul into this world.

But isn't 'cloning' very similar to what happens when people have identical twin babies? If it's not a sin then, why is it a sin as cloning?

It just makes another person, which is the goal of having children anyway.

Just a thought.

Well, one of the ethical questions on this has been in a number of Science Fiction stories with gengineering: Is the clone of a living person, an exact copy genetically, "property" of the original person. That is "I own my unique genetic pattern".   This comes into play with the idea of Person A wants/needs some medical resources such a a transplant.  It some stories it's a whole new young body with the original brain being transferred.  To avoid rejection problems a perfect match is a clone.  So the new one is created not to have a child or companion or whatever but to be ermm "broken down for parts" as it were.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: DeniseDenise on February 17, 2014, 02:07:37 PM
I keep reading this thread title as Clothing Humans and thinking...'oh not another modesty thread'



 :-\


*backing away now*
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on February 17, 2014, 02:17:56 PM
 ;D Hee hee!
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Opus118 on February 17, 2014, 02:22:18 PM
... the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov ...

That goes without saying. However the high cost-factor, and actual need, points to the possibility that it may be the only way to preserve Upper Class Twits such as Vivian Smith-Smythe-Smith, Simon Zinc-Trumpet-Harris, Nigel Incubator-Jones, Gervaise Brook-Hampster and Oliver St. John-Mollusc.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: biro on February 17, 2014, 02:29:09 PM
I would like to gently suggest the point that there are still plenty of people in the world. There are seven billion humans, more every day. We don't really need human cloning just in order to get more people. Also, I don't think most scientists are bad people who want to inflict bad things on us. A few may try. But I don't think most will. I don't think we're all going to see duplicates of ourselves everywhere. There are already a lot of people, the very vast majority of whom come into the world the same way they always have. ;)

Instead of being panicked by the idea of cloning, which is as yet a rare issue, why not worry about showing more love and help to those who are here?

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=love+one+another&qs_version=DRA

Lord have mercy on us.  :angel:



Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: IoanC on February 18, 2014, 08:19:03 AM
... the concept is very troubling (if only in theory) from an ethical and philosophical pov ...

That goes without saying. However the high cost-factor, and actual need, points to the possibility that it may be the only way to preserve Upper Class Twits such as Vivian Smith-Smythe-Smith, Simon Zinc-Trumpet-Harris, Nigel Incubator-Jones, Gervaise Brook-Hampster and Oliver St. John-Mollusc.

 :) :) :)
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: elephant on February 18, 2014, 08:28:29 AM
Everyone could have their mother-in-law forever!
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Mor Ephrem on February 18, 2014, 02:51:01 PM
Everyone could have their mother-in-law forever!

Ab omni malo, libera nos, Domine.

From all evil, deliver us, Lord.
Title: Re: Cloning humans
Post by: Maria on February 18, 2014, 02:55:34 PM
Everyone could have their mother-in-law forever!

Ab omni malo, libera nos, Domine.

From all evil, deliver us, Lord.

I miss my mother-in-law, she was exceptional. May her memory be eternal.

Back on cloning. If a human being were to be cloned, scientists would use the DNA from the human to be cloned and insert that into the nucleus. However, different maternal mitochrondrial DNA would be found within the cell. Thus, there would never be a perfect "clone" twin generated unless the cell were from an identical twin. From the studies I have read about cloning, some from a cloning research doctor from South America, there are still many hurtles that need to be resolved.