OrthodoxChristianity.net

Moderated Forums => Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion => Orthodox-Catholic Discussion => Topic started by: Alpo on May 11, 2013, 05:38:36 PM

Title: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Alpo on May 11, 2013, 05:38:36 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Gorazd on May 11, 2013, 06:12:56 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."

Guess it depends where. In Ukraine, Greek Catholicism is the dominant form of being in communion with Rome. And they do receive converts.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: theistgal on May 11, 2013, 07:18:55 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."

I know of a couple, but they're very quiet about it, and don't spend much time online. 
(Strangely enough, there are still people in the world who don't feel the need to share their every thought on social networking sites. Weirdos.  ;) )
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: J Michael on May 11, 2013, 07:19:26 PM
I converted from secular Judaism/not-much-of-anything directly into the Eastern Catholic Church.  I'm pretty sure I was the first convert that parish had.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Peter J on May 20, 2013, 10:12:32 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts?

It does happen, though perhaps not very much.

I think there's a general assumption that protestants, even ones that might be interestied in Catholicism, wouldn't be interested in Eastern Catholicism.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Peter J on May 20, 2013, 10:14:20 PM
I know of a couple, but they're very quiet about it, and don't spend much time online. 
(Strangely enough, there are still people in the world who don't feel the need to share their every thought on social networking sites. Weirdos.  ;) )

That is weird.  :o (If it's true; we shouldn't rule out the possibility that they're just pretending.)



 :laugh:
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Nephi on May 20, 2013, 10:18:41 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."

I've seen some posting on various forums, but that probably doesn't speak for the average parish.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: theistgal on May 21, 2013, 11:53:55 AM
I know of a couple, but they're very quiet about it, and don't spend much time online. 
(Strangely enough, there are still people in the world who don't feel the need to share their every thought on social networking sites. Weirdos.  ;) )

That is weird.  :o (If it's true; we shouldn't rule out the possibility that they're just pretending.)

 :laugh:

You're joking ... right? I have trouble telling, sometimes.  ;D
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Peter J on May 21, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
I know of a couple, but they're very quiet about it, and don't spend much time online. 
(Strangely enough, there are still people in the world who don't feel the need to share their every thought on social networking sites. Weirdos.  ;) )

That is weird.  :o (If it's true; we shouldn't rule out the possibility that they're just pretending.)

 :laugh:

You're joking ... right?

Why would you think that? :D  ;D
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Kerdy on September 01, 2013, 09:48:23 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: theistgal on September 01, 2013, 09:51:24 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

You do know there are 7 different rites in the Catholic Church, and that not everyone who's in communion with Rome is (or is required to be) Latin Rite ... ?  ???
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Kerdy on September 01, 2013, 10:01:59 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

You do know there are 7 different rites in the Catholic Church, and that not everyone who's in communion with Rome is (or is required to be) Latin Rite ... ?  ???
No, I didn't.  Since you asked this, I am going to assume it is a precursor to an explanation.  I know very little about Eastern Catholics.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Father H on September 01, 2013, 10:04:07 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."

I know of a couple, but they're very quiet about it, and don't spend much time online. 
(Strangely enough, there are still people in the world who don't feel the need to share their every thought on social networking sites. Weirdos.  ;) )

lol.  weirdos worthy of praise. 
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Nephi on September 01, 2013, 10:14:36 PM
I actually just met a couple recently that are Ruthenian Catholics. The guy was in RCIA in Latin parish, but IIRC stopped and was eventually received into his significant other's EC parish. Either way he went from Protestant to Eastern Catholic (not just as a marriage-conversion either, even if introduced through her), so more or less fits the OP.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: ialmisry on September 01, 2013, 11:57:24 PM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."

Guess it depends where. In Ukraine, Greek Catholicism is the dominant form of being in communion with Rome. And they do receive converts.
That they do.  And push for-despite what is said to the contrary.

It dominants only the three core UGCC oblasts.  Elsewhere in Ukraine, their Latin rite dominates their communion, IRCC (I'm too tired at present to check).
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Kerdy on September 02, 2013, 12:00:57 AM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

Soooooooo?  No one has anything...  Alrighty then.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Mor Ephrem on September 02, 2013, 12:02:35 AM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

Soooooooo?  No one has anything...  Alrighty then.

What does that question even mean?  What is "full Catholic" or "full Orthodox"? 
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Kerdy on September 02, 2013, 12:08:02 AM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

Soooooooo?  No one has anything...  Alrighty then.

What does that question even mean?  What is "full Catholic" or "full Orthodox"?  

It means nothing.  Disregard.  It was a horrible mistake for me to attempt to understand something and ask for clarification here.  I should have known better. 
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: mike on September 02, 2013, 06:27:11 AM
Does regular everyday Eastern Catholic parishes receive any converts? Internet seems to be filled with stories about conversions to Roman Catholicism and how some RCs found their way to Eastern Catholicism but I haven't stumbled any stories like "Yay! Catholicism is awesome so I decided to join a Chaldean parish."

Guess it depends where. In Ukraine, Greek Catholicism is the dominant form of being in communion with Rome. And they do receive converts.
That they do.  And push for-despite what is said to the contrary.

It dominants only the three core UGCC oblasts.  Elsewhere in Ukraine, their Latin rite dominates their communion, IRCC (I'm too tired at present to check).

IIRC, Ethiopia.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Romaios on September 02, 2013, 08:03:44 AM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

If an EO or an OO were to convert to Catholicism, he/she is expected to join the corresponding Eastern/Oriental Catholic Church and maintain his rite - this is the default canonical procedure. Nevertheless, lots of people would get a dispensation from the bishop and join the Latin rite. This is what most Romanian converts to Catholicism do anyway, despite the dwindling numbers of the Greek-Catholics here.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Nephi on September 02, 2013, 08:43:29 AM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

If an EO or an OO were to convert to Catholicism, he/she is expected to join the corresponding Eastern/Oriental Catholic Church and maintain his rite - this is the default canonical procedure. Nevertheless, lots of people would get a dispensation from the bishop and join the Latin rite. This is what most Romanian converts to Catholicism do anyway, despite the dwindling numbers of the Greek-Catholics here.

Do you know why they decide to go Latin?
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Romaios on September 02, 2013, 08:52:54 AM
Do you know why they decide to go Latin?

Because they hate being Orthodox/the Byzantine rite. They see the Latin Novus Ordo rite as more "civilized" and convenient, basically because services are shorter and less repetitious.

These folks are often the parvenu type. For them, whatever is foreign and modern is better than the indigenous and traditional alternative.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: ialmisry on September 02, 2013, 10:32:44 AM
Do you know why they decide to go Latin?

Because they hate being Orthodox/the Byzantine rite. They see the Latin Novus Ordo rite as more "civilized" and convenient, basically because services are shorter and less repetitious.

These folks are often the parvenu type. For them, whatever is foreign and modern is better than the indigenous and traditional alternative.
Yeah, grass is always greener/familiarity breeds contempt types.  Interesting, they all go to the Vatican.  Not many go Protestant (to be clear, many become Protestant, relatively speaking, but for theological reasons.  In fact, a lot of Protestant Romanians have a lot of friction with their overseas brethren trying to convert them to the American way, to the point of visiting missionaries having separate communities from their correligionists in Romania).
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: podkarpatska on September 02, 2013, 11:18:34 AM
While not strictly speaking converting, (although some EC will take issue) , Latin Rite RCC s seeking to join an EC rite parish often have great difficulties in obtaining the paperwork from their Latin ordinary bishop to do so. I have heard that the same bishops are not as "picky" in receiving transferring ECs.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Peter J on September 02, 2013, 01:32:50 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic

Could you define "Roman Catholic"?

or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

Could you define "Roman Catholic"?
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Gorazd on September 02, 2013, 03:58:16 PM
It dominants only the three core UGCC oblasts.  Elsewhere in Ukraine, their Latin rite dominates their communion, IRCC (I'm too tired at present to check).

"Dominate" is not just a numerical thing. The Latin Rite in Ukraine concentrates on ministry for ethnic minorites, such as Poles and Hungarians, as well as providing English speaking masses for foreigners living there. The UGCC on the other hand actively reaches out to the unchurched (i.e. baptized Orthodox but not regularly attending) all over the country. They also get much more media coverage.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Deacon Lance on September 02, 2013, 04:07:06 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

That presupposes that one must be Latin to be fully Catholic or Byzantine to be fully Orthodox, something that both Eastern Catholics and Western Orthodox reject.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: lovesupreme on September 02, 2013, 09:38:46 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

That presupposes that one must be Latin to be fully Catholic or Byzantine to be fully Orthodox, something that both Eastern Catholics and Western Orthodox reject.

Deacon, I believe Kerdy was using the term "full" in the sense of "representing the typical example," not in the sense of lessening the "Catholicness" of Eastern Catholics.

I don't know if Kerdy has seen Tropic Thunder, but I'm pretty sure this usage of the word "full" was popularized in that film.

You never go full retard! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3FzVQi-R8) (some profanity)

In this sense, "full Catholic" is akin to going all out in the most typical way; pray the rosary 100 times a dya, order your deluxe set of the Summa, tune to EWTN 24/7, etc.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Shanghaiski on September 02, 2013, 10:20:38 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

They're all Roman Catholics, just not Roman Rite. Maybe they didn't like the Roman Rite. Maybe in their area, there were only guitar masses. Perhaps the altar girls were distracting.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Peter J on September 03, 2013, 10:34:58 AM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

That presupposes that one must be Latin to be fully Catholic or Byzantine to be fully Orthodox, something that both Eastern Catholics and Western Orthodox reject.

Deacon, I believe Kerdy was using the term "full" in the sense of "representing the typical example," not in the sense of lessening the "Catholicness" of Eastern Catholics.

I don't know if Kerdy has seen Tropic Thunder, but I'm pretty sure this usage of the word "full" was popularized in that film.

You never go full retard! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3FzVQi-R8) (some profanity)

In this sense, "full Catholic" is akin to going all out in the most typical way; pray the rosary 100 times a dya, order your deluxe set of the Summa, tune to EWTN 24/7, etc.

Although I've been trying to cut down on my OCnet participation, after seeing this explanation I feel a need to ask: if that's what Kerdy means, why doesn't he say so himself? Why the need to guess / read his mind?

I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

They're all Roman Catholics, just not Roman Rite.

That depends on how you define "Roman Catholics" ... it can, in fact, be short for "Roman-Rite Catholics".
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Wyatt on September 03, 2013, 03:10:42 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?
I'm sure there are quite a few Eastern Catholics that would be offended by the notion that they are not fully Catholic.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: podkarpatska on September 03, 2013, 05:25:08 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?
I'm sure there are quite a few Eastern Catholics that would be offended by the notion that they are not fully Catholic.

But even to this day, if pressed, many ECs will concede that there more than a few Roman Catholics who view them that way. Over the years, I have heard from several EC priests who attended seminary in Rome that such an attitude was common there outside of the Orientale.

I admit a certain bias, but there are times when I don't get their fierce loyalty to Rome.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Deacon Lance on September 03, 2013, 09:40:51 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?
I'm sure there are quite a few Eastern Catholics that would be offended by the notion that they are not fully Catholic.

But even to this day, if pressed, many ECs will concede that there more than a few Roman Catholics who view them that way. Over the years, I have heard from several EC priests who attended seminary in Rome that such an attitude was common there outside of the Orientale.

I admit a certain bias, but there are times when I don't get their fierce loyalty to Rome.

You don't even have to press me. ;)  For myself, I cannot allow the ignorance of Latin Catholics or their poor treatment of us at times to influence my faith or loyalty which is based on my understanding of the Gospel.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Papist on September 03, 2013, 10:15:25 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

Soooooooo?  No one has anything...  Alrighty then.

What does that question even mean?  What is "full Catholic" or "full Orthodox"?  

It means nothing.  Disregard.  It was a horrible mistake for me to attempt to understand something and ask for clarification here.  I should have known better. 
Kerdy, I would be more than happy to answer your question, but I'm just a bit confused about what you are asking. Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by "Full Catholic?"

Thanks
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: lovesupreme on September 03, 2013, 11:31:28 PM
I do not understand why a person would not go full Catholic or Orthodox.  What causes a person to want to be in communion with Rome but not be Roman Catholic or not want to be Roman Catholic yet be in communion with Rome?

That presupposes that one must be Latin to be fully Catholic or Byzantine to be fully Orthodox, something that both Eastern Catholics and Western Orthodox reject.

Deacon, I believe Kerdy was using the term "full" in the sense of "representing the typical example," not in the sense of lessening the "Catholicness" of Eastern Catholics.

I don't know if Kerdy has seen Tropic Thunder, but I'm pretty sure this usage of the word "full" was popularized in that film.

You never go full retard! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y3FzVQi-R8) (some profanity)

In this sense, "full Catholic" is akin to going all out in the most typical way; pray the rosary 100 times a dya, order your deluxe set of the Summa, tune to EWTN 24/7, etc.

Although I've been trying to cut down on my OCnet participation, after seeing this explanation I feel a need to ask: if that's what Kerdy means, why doesn't he say so himself? Why the need to guess / read his mind?

I suppose it's really not my place to say what he meant, but I thought I would infer since that's how I've seen the phrase "full x" used in common parlance. It was more of an observation than a definitive response to Deacon on Kerdy's behalf.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Papist on September 04, 2013, 03:31:20 PM
I know a family that converted to Eastern Catholicism.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: theistgal on September 04, 2013, 06:32:27 PM
Not going to put down Kerdy's comments at all. In fact, IMHO it just reiterates how little both Orthodox and Catholics really know about what Eastern Catholicism is all about and who they are.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: dzheremi on September 04, 2013, 08:03:53 PM
Not going to put down Kerdy's comments at all. In fact, IMHO it just reiterates how little both Orthodox and Catholics really know about what Eastern Catholicism is all about and who they are.

Latin Catholics, sure (when I was a Latin, even the people who told me to "heck them out" after I got tired of Latin shenanigans more or less painted them as Latin Catholics with a nifty 'Eastern' liturgy), but Orthodox? Eastern Catholic churches wouldn't exist if it weren't for Orthodoxy. ???
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: theistgal on September 04, 2013, 08:14:58 PM
Not going to put down Kerdy's comments at all. In fact, IMHO it just reiterates how little both Orthodox and Catholics really know about what Eastern Catholicism is all about and who they are.

Latin Catholics, sure (when I was a Latin, even the people who told me to "heck them out" after I got tired of Latin shenanigans more or less painted them as Latin Catholics with a nifty 'Eastern' liturgy), but Orthodox? Eastern Catholic churches wouldn't exist if it weren't for Orthodoxy. ???

That may well be true. But in my experience here at OC.net, there are quite a few EOs (like Kerdy) who can't seem to get their mind around why ECs exist at all.

(And it won't surprise me a bit if someone responds to this with some variation of "And they shouldn't!" - thus proving my point.  8))
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Deacon Lance on September 04, 2013, 09:15:45 PM
I've met many Orthodox who had no idea there were Catholics who looked and prayed as they do.  They were Greeks.  Perhaps groups without major unions don't have us on their radar.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: podkarpatska on September 04, 2013, 11:13:19 PM
I've met many Orthodox who had no idea there were Catholics who looked and prayed as they do.  They were Greeks.  Perhaps groups without major unions don't have us on their radar.

I think that is true among Greeks in particular. I'm not sure about Russians as most who traditionally identified as "Russian Orthodox" in the USA were not Great Russians ethnically, but rather came from the regions on the Russian/Polish/Hungarian frontiers where large numbers of Eastern Catholics resided at the end of the 19th century. I suspect the further east one went from Lviv or Uzhorod, the less likely one was to have any real knowledge of or contact with Eastern Catholics.
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Napoletani on September 05, 2013, 10:02:30 AM
Not going to put down Kerdy's comments at all. In fact, IMHO it just reiterates how little both Orthodox and Catholics really know about what Eastern Catholicism is all about and who they are.

Latin Catholics, sure (when I was a Latin, even the people who told me to "heck them out" after I got tired of Latin shenanigans more or less painted them as Latin Catholics with a nifty 'Eastern' liturgy), but Orthodox? Eastern Catholic churches wouldn't exist if it weren't for Orthodoxy. ???

That may well be true. But in my experience here at OC.net, there are quite a few EOs (like Kerdy) who can't seem to get their mind around why ECs exist at all.

(And it won't surprise me a bit if someone responds to this with some variation of "And they shouldn't!" - thus proving my point.  8))

And they shouldn't  ;D
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: theistgal on September 05, 2013, 10:11:34 AM
Not going to put down Kerdy's comments at all. In fact, IMHO it just reiterates how little both Orthodox and Catholics really know about what Eastern Catholicism is all about and who they are.

Latin Catholics, sure (when I was a Latin, even the people who told me to "heck them out" after I got tired of Latin shenanigans more or less painted them as Latin Catholics with a nifty 'Eastern' liturgy), but Orthodox? Eastern Catholic churches wouldn't exist if it weren't for Orthodoxy. ???

That may well be true. But in my experience here at OC.net, there are quite a few EOs (like Kerdy) who can't seem to get their mind around why ECs exist at all.

(And it won't surprise me a bit if someone responds to this with some variation of "And they shouldn't!" - thus proving my point.  8))

And they shouldn't  ;D

Glad I could count on you.  ;D
Title: Re: Eastern Catholic converts
Post by: Napoletani on September 05, 2013, 10:14:17 AM
Not going to put down Kerdy's comments at all. In fact, IMHO it just reiterates how little both Orthodox and Catholics really know about what Eastern Catholicism is all about and who they are.

Latin Catholics, sure (when I was a Latin, even the people who told me to "heck them out" after I got tired of Latin shenanigans more or less painted them as Latin Catholics with a nifty 'Eastern' liturgy), but Orthodox? Eastern Catholic churches wouldn't exist if it weren't for Orthodoxy. ???

That may well be true. But in my experience here at OC.net, there are quite a few EOs (like Kerdy) who can't seem to get their mind around why ECs exist at all.

(And it won't surprise me a bit if someone responds to this with some variation of "And they shouldn't!" - thus proving my point.  8))

And they shouldn't  ;D

Glad I could count on you.  ;D

You seemed so lonely, i couldnt but to come to your rescue  :D